What is going on ladies and gents?
Robert Sykes keto Savage.com and today I have special guests
Tanya Pennington on. WE delve deep into a lot of
different things. I've got a lot of respect for
her based off her approach to nutrition training.
We just drove deep. It was good.
She's competed in the past extensively with Crossfit and
she's now doing Spartan races, but she also used to compete in
figure. So we dove into what her
nutritional protocol was then and then now that she's keto,
how she's Implemented and change that to for her clients.
And honestly was kind of strange because her protocol.
And my protocol is pretty much the same.
Not going to say the same, but it's very similar.
So it was cool to see and hear somebody else's approach and see
how it mirrored. A lot of the same things that I
do and it works so huge set out to her there for finding
something that works well, and then preaching that as a
healthier alternative to what a lot of people are doing out
there. And on top of that, we talked
about sex at the Spartan races, I dove into that with her
because I've been intrigued by that Sport and I'm considering
doing that at some point in the future and we also do of into a
nutritional therapy. She's a nutritional therapist.
We talked about how she incorporates different foods,
how she helped improve the absorption of the fat in her
diet, which we talked about a lot of things.
So sit back, relax. Hope you enjoy the podcast with
Tanya Pennington. And we're live Tonya Pennington.
How are you doing, great? How are you doing?
I'm doing wonderfully. Well, I'm excited to talk with
you because I was talking to Crystal and she had mentioned
that you'd helped her son with her prep and I just really
respect and look to other female competitors that are doing the
hard things outside of just competitions in and general.
But I mean, you've done a whole bunch.
Bunch of Spartan races. Like you're doing impressive
things, following a ketogenic protocol as a female and I feel
like those stories need to be voiced so that more people know
that it's possible. Yeah, so dive into your
background as a nutritional therapist.
I just want to kind of give me some background and give the our
listeners a little little insight into what got you into
the space. Okay, well, I've actually been
in this industry for 20 years now and my passion for health
and fitness really began. It begin in high school and I
think a lot of it was, you know, kind of looking around at my
family, really on both sides. My mom's side, my dad's side.
And, you know, not everybody is the healthiest and I thought,
you know, I really don't want to end up in that place.
And so, I actually one week after graduating, high school
became a personal trainer and was just thought I had, you
know, hit the jackpot. It was my dream job.
It was everything I ever wanted to do and I loved it.
I continue to To do that for years, went on to get my degree
in kinesiology with the concentration.
And exercise, science actually competed in my very first figure
competition and 2001. So I'm definitely dating myself
now. And at that point, my whole goal
in life was to own a gym. I thought that's there was no
question in my mind. That's what I was going to do
because of my passion for what it was that I did.
And so one thing that my mom had always told me is whatever it is
that you think you want to do in life, make, you know, really
make sure that you're working in that area for a period of time.
So that you, you know, you actually know what it's all
about. And so I went into Jim
management, I was a general manager of several gyms, I
enjoyed it. However, I just couldn't help,
but notice how many people were coming in and out of there and I
mean, working their butts off. I mean, just the intensity was
through the roof and they were sweating.
And but a year would go by and just no change, no change to
their body composition and you know, that's what they were
working for. They wanted that change.
And that's when I really started switching over to okay, I need
to focus more on this nutrition side of things because nobody's
going to outwork a poor diet. Unless, you know, there are In
year old male, right, right? And so yeah.
So I really started looking into the nutrition side of things and
actually switched my career over to getting involved with the
nutrition and supplement stores. And so I did that for years.
I actually managed supplement stores and I continue to compete
in figure competitions as well. And then I finally opened my own
supplement store which I currently still have today.
So I have a brick and mortar Total Nutrition.
And with that, I knew I wanted to be able to help people
further beyond what I was currently doing.
Which was, you know, helping people with customized meal
plans. I was coaching figure and bikini
and physique athletes at that point, but I wanted to be able
to help at a deeper level and that's why I chose to continue
my education to become a functional, nutritional therapy
practitioner a certified, diabetes specialist, And a
restorative Wellness practitioner which allows me to
really go into the digestive healing.
So I'm able to specialize in Fat Loss, digestive healing
optimizing performance and I can do it all through nutrition and
lab testing in the lab. Testing is really an important
aspect to all of it so that we can really become holy healthy
and find the root cause of things.
Because you know, we're looking at everything with a functional
perspective. And so and that's kind of where
it leaves me today is I've got my brick and mortar store.
I've got my nutritional therapy, practice nourish to thrive which
I run out of my office inside of my Total Nutrition location as
well as I work remotely with clients and I continue to coach
competitors. I've got both bikini and figure
who are competing, currently I compete in Spartan races and
half marathons and Yeah. So that's where I'm at now.
Lots of different Avenues. I want to take this with regard
to the nutrition and kind of emphasizing that when you when
you started getting into it it's funny cuz I feel like a lot of
people have that background, they start to think that
training is kind of like the main determining factor to how
your composition looks, and that gets most of the attention.
And so, as what I did, when I was a teenager, I just trained
in the gym at next nutrition was kind of an afterthought and I
feel like people put these percentages on it like, oh, it's
you know, 75% training, 25% diet.
But I think the more I learn, I think it's more more.
The flip-flop of that more more so than nutrition.
Anything else? Absolutely, I mean, gosh and 75%
might even be low for the nutrition side.
Totally, totally. So when you get into, you know,
the keto diet, you've been doing that for a while.
Now what what did you find in doing your nutritional therapy
studies? Working with the clients.
Like what led you down that path to become more more?
Emphasizing of the, the fat a Temptation, you know, it really
all kind of began because it seemed that whatever a person
was dealing with. Whether we were talking, you
know, digestive issues. Or if we're talking diabetes, if
we're talking inflammation, adrenals thyroid, it all came
back to the foundation of stabilizing, your blood sugar
levels. And so when you look at it from
that aspect, if that's where we need to start, no matter which
way. We're going or no matter what it
is, that we're trying to heal. What's the best way to balance?
Our blood sugar levels and that would be to control our
carbohydrates. Because any time we're playing
with carbohydrates, it's kind of like, we're always chasing them.
And so, it's like, they kind of can't be trusted, you know?
And so if we can pull the carbohydrates out while
increasing our good quality fat intake, then we just get this
beautiful balance of blood sugar levels, that then allows us Us
to move on beyond that to do the work that we need to do totally
agree. There's a pretty bad.
I mean it's interesting for me that you are, you know, coach to
these bikini and figure athletes because I feel like the
bodybuilding industry as a home is probably going to be one of
the last demographics to really Embrace keto.
As has a, you know, option for contest prep nutrition.
I feel like they often times body body.
Builders are pretty ignorant. They just think that they're
doing key. Simply when they take out the
carbs whereas in reality, they're still way too high on
the protein, not in taking enough fat.
So do you feel like you've been getting a bunch of resistance
from that space and being a coach for figure athletes to do
a ketogenic prep well. So number one, I definitely
agree with you about that space being the last to embrace a
ketogenic approach. And yes, I've had so many
clients, come to me and say, oh yeah, I don't want to do keto
for my prep with you. Because I've tried that before
and it didn't work for me. And so I always ask and I say
well can I see what plan you were on before?
So that we can just confirm that what you were doing was actually
a ketogenic protocol. Never trying to step on another
coaches toes, but if I'm able to kind of share with them that,
you know, here's how it's actually going to look different
for you. Then they generally jump on
board and because a lot of people, the people who come to
me for coaching, it's always through a referral.
It is certainly not my, it's not Thing that I'm doing to make
money that's kind of like my it's just my passion.
I enjoy staying involved in the industry so I always like to
have just you know a small team that I'm coaching and so it's
usually somebody who's been referred by somebody.
So there's already that trust there.
So I don't generally tend to have too much of an issue.
Getting them to do, you know, to go the keto route and I
explained to them that in my experience and I have a lot of
years of experience with this one of the The main reasons why
I like to use a ketogenic approach aside from gosh, it
takes a lot of the guesswork out of your prep.
It takes a lot of the guesswork out of peak week, but also I
think most important is what happens, you know, post-show or
between shows if they're doing multiple shows because the
rebound effect, when somebody has faulted followed, a
ketogenic protocol is just so much less at least in my
experience than when I would. What I used to coach, without a
ketogenic protocol, or when I used to compete without a
ketogenic protocol, there is just something about that
rebound effect that it's easy for a female.
A female to put on 20 pounds within a matter of weeks, post
show. I totally, totally green.
I feel like none of the people talking about this.
So I'm definitely going to take this opportunity to just dive
deep because I feel like it needs to be highlighted.
I mean, I personally gained 20 pounds, 24 post, 24 hours, post
show after my first competition, which was just not healthy.
That was obviously before key do.
But with her, you mentioned peak week and kind of simplifying
your Peak Week by leveraging, a ketogenic diet for your contest
prep. So, what is, what does that
mean? Exactly, in your words?
Like, I know how I work with my clients during peak week on
keto, but I'd love to hear your take on that and kind of how
it's easier more sustainable than traditional bodybuilding
bro, diets. Sure.
Yeah. So the the Bro way I guess is
just so much more complicated because we have this theory that
it's like okay pull out the carbs.
That way you empty your glycogen stores and flatten your muscles
and make sure you're drinking a bunch of water at that point and
then you're going to drop your water.
And now we're going to eat a bunch of carbs and all those
carbs are going to go directly into your muscles and fill them
up as if we get to choose, you know, exactly where these carbs
are going to go and you know, you're playing this game with.
You know, hoping that you don't spill over.
But also hoping that you get full enough hoping, you don't
look too flat shoot. Do we need to cut your water
more, do we need to increase your carbs more, which is it?
And so you're just, you're just chasing, you're chasing carbs,
you're chasing that whole game and when you take that aspect
out of it, oh my gosh. It beats, just becomes it
becomes so much easier first and foremost, a person needs to be
ready for their show a week before the show.
Totally agree. And if you feel that you need
to, you know, cut and empty and fill up and you know, do all
these things and going, I don't think that person is holding
water necessarily. I think they're holding fat.
And so if we can just be prepared the week before,
there's really not a whole heck of a lot that you have to do
coming up to show day. So I might pull out some veggies
and things that I might think could potentially cause some
bloat, you know, to make sure. They're there.
They don't have any bloke coming into the show.
I'll increase their proteins a little bit that week as we get
toward the end of the week, I will increase the fats.
And as a matter of fact, what I have my athletes do now Friday
night before the show is eat, this wonderful thing called an
Omega key do pizza. And would you like I got that
from you? Oh, I thought it said a little
for me because I made that one with the fish so that's what
you're using the that fish. Pizza that I made.
Yes, yes. Oh, wow, that's awesome.
On one of my athletes who was very willing to give it a go and
gosh, not only did she love the taste of it?
But it really, you know what? That sodium content that you
have in there and the ratio of your proteins to your fats, does
wonderful things. And it's interesting because I
will have my athlete. Send me their weight and
pictures Friday morning. Go through a trial on Friday.
So I might do this a couple weeks out from the show a few
weeks out from the show. I have them go through their
Friday. I have them eat that pizza in
the evening and then Saturday morning, I have them.
Send me their weight and pictures again and we see what's
happened. And it's gosh, nine times out of
ten. Each athlete drops about two to
three pounds just by just by doing that, which is really
interesting. So there's just a lot more
control. When you take the carbs out of
the equation. I definitely want to dive into
this. Because I want to just Echo and
emphasize what you just said, because I totally agree and it
sounds like our Protocols are pretty similar.
So first thing you said that, I totally want to highlight is
that people need to be ready like a weekend out before peak
week. I mean people I'm amazed at how
many people come up to me and they just have this illusion of
themselves assuming that they're going to do some crazy water
manipulation and then look 30 pounds leaner in Of 24 to 48
hours and it's just, it's just total ignorance.
I mean, if you're not ready, I mean you should be looking
amazing, several weeks out from the show, totally independent of
any water or caloric manipulations period, like that,
that should be the standard. And if you're expecting to see
some miraculous change during peak week, then then you haven't
given yourself enough time or done the Prep properly, so I
think we can both agree on that, for sure.
You know what? And I, yes, we are in such
agreement but what I I also who I want to place the blame on
there is, I want to place the blame on the coaches because
it's the coaches that put this in the minds of their athletes.
That oh, don't worry Peak Week. Everything's going to change.
And I know personally, coaches, who load their athletes up on
325 gallons of water a day at the beginning of the week,
having them ingest, soy sauce, drink, pickle juice, all These
things to retain all of that water and then they drop the
water down. 20 oz, cutting all of that, sodium.
I mean, all of these things. So, it's really the coaches.
I think that I've put this in the athletes mind and so, you
know, and it just kind of goes throughout the industry that
way. Yeah, I totally agree.
I mean, I am not the world's greatest coach painting means,
there's a lot of things that I need to learn.
Still, I learn something new every day, but I am.
I'm pretty. I'm just in disbelief and some
of the advice that I've seen coaches put out there for their
contest prep. Clamps.
I mean it's honestly just dangerous.
I mean it's not safe to have such a flux in your body's
hydration and electrolyte levels especially when you're that
depleted. And you know that physically
active and Extreme as as you are at the end of a contest prep.
I mean that's like the worst environment for having these
crazy manipulations with your nutrition, your water and take
your electrolytes, like the closer you can get to just what
you see. Staying on the normal day-to-day
basis during Peak Week, the better.
I mean, I percent know what you're doing, but I personally
don't even manipulate water during Peak Week.
Like, like they stay hydrated throughout the entirety of it,
which I think is, is better. I mean, your body, you shouldn't
have to dehydrate the point of, you know, muscle exhaustion,
right. Exactly.
Because then you just you feel horrible.
And I've actually had an experience.
Gosh, this was probably 2000 and Might have been 2006 or so where
I actually at registration passed out.
Yeah, and it would sadness. That's that's pretty common,
like a lot of people have that issue.
Yeah. And I had at that point, a coach
who was having the drink, you know, nothing but distilled
water. And, you know, so it's like you
said, you change all of these things that week of and we think
that we like to expect what the outcomes going to be, but we
can't because we've just changed everything throughout the, the
bulk of the prep. Do you normally have?
I got nobody's difference can be different, macros different,
ratios for everybody. But in working with the clients
that you have, have you noticed that they tend to perform better
at a higher. Higher fat Ratio or a higher
protein intake, you know, it's definitely different for each
athlete. So I kind of have a place where
I start the athletes at initially and then I start to
kind of manipulate the proteins in the fats.
And I, and as we go along, I like to bring the fats down,
increase the proteins. And I will say that that works
really well for a lot of my athletes to where we get to a
point where proteins and fats are actually Equal in terms of
grams and however, there will be some athletes where I kind of
start going that same, you know, decreasing increasing on the
proteins and fats that way and then the fat loss stops.
So then I'll back it up again and I start bringing the pro
Town, protein down again and the fats backed up again, and there
we are. We're back on track.
So it's really a matter of there's, you know, there never
is. Just one way, it really has a
lot to do with with the athletes themselves.
You know, we're just we're all bio individuals and so you know
we all respond a little bit different.
Totally agree. What about like total caloric
intake? Have you noticed, you know, with
a keto approach versus a car based protocol with their total
caloric intake, is at the onset versus what it, tapers down to
there during peak week, is there much of a variation there
between the carbs in the Ketone? Protocols, Kyoto, protocol's.
You know, I definitely noticed that with the keto, protocols,
the total caloric intake generally tends to be lower both
at the start and as we go along and then by the end, it just
generally is a little bit lower and I think that has a lot to do
with just kind of the, the say shitty that comes along with it
and, you know, not increasing, not having those carbohydrates
to make you hungry. And, you know, because I used to
do before I was doing the key. A genetic approach I would do a
lot of carb cycling with my athletes and this, this would
be, you know, say a decade ago in this actually has a lot to do
also with. Hmm.
Maybe a ketogenic protocol would be better.
Because what I would notice is I would do this carb cycling where
you know, on Monday, they would get x amount of carbs and
Tuesday a little bit less and Wednesday a little bit less and
Thursday a little bit less. There would be two days where I
would take out the carbs drive up the fat.
And the person would just feel all of a sudden, good that day,
they had energy that it have dips and drives all of those
things. And they would always say gosh,
I would be so excited for my car because I thought I was going to
be So Satisfied to have all those carbs, but all I wanted
was more carbs on those days. All I was was more hungry on
those days and so you know, you really start to listen to those
things and you can't ignore it and you go, okay.
And that's when I really started looking into, you know, that
insulin. Effect and in that, that hunger,
you're driving up that hunger. And so, yeah, with the ketogenic
protocol, I find that generally speaking the caloric intake
tends to be a little bit lower and perhaps that also is because
of the, you know, muscle sparing capabilities of the ketones.
Do you find that there's any - what?
Let me rephrase the question, I feel like a lot of people in the
space specially competitors. They they're just Chronically
eating at a deficit and will definitely get into the reverse
that Parks. I know we have a lot to do a lot
about the ketogenic diet can be applicable from the reverse diet
standpoint but as calories drop for the contest prep, do you
notice that at a lower caloric intake?
The athletes that are following a ketogenic protocol home seem
to be outperforming those that have a slightly higher caloric
intake but with a card-based broke, I feel like the nutrient
absorption and Level of adaptation, when following a
ketogenic protocol at times of, you know, caloric deficit, like
when you're doing a in a prep you're going to perform better
with the Ketone based diet. 100% 100%.
So if I compare athletes that, I was coaching before, not on a
ketogenic protocol to the athletes that I coach.
Now, only on a ketogenic protocol.
It's like they're just fine. They're okay.
Energy is good. Every time I ask them peak week,
I just doesn't matter, they're just good and I'll see, you
know, because I have my brick and mortar store.
I have customers who come in who have other coaches and No,
they're nearing their show and they just walk in like zombies
and I see them and I gosh you know I go gosh that really just
it brings back memories. It brings back memories to mild
preps and it brings back memories of, you know, athletes
that I used to coach. And here they are.
And I just, you know, you just want to tell him, it doesn't
have to be that way. It really doesn't.
And I, you know, I'm very careful.
Like I said, I don't want to step on other coaches toes and,
you know, especially coaches at live in my area and that sort of
thing. I, you know, have respect for
all of them. But yes I 100% And in agreement
with you on that and I know again it was gonna be different.
But have you noticed like a just on average?
Like if you were to take all your your female competitors and
average what their lowest caloric intake is, you know,
during that Peak Week period, what does that number tend to be
around? Like what window is usually what
you're saying? If I had to say an average
during peak week would probably be somewhere?
Around 12:00 12:00. He's a free competitors that I'm
assuming her way in between, like, 110 to 130 somewhere in
that ballpark. Yes.
I would say, even gosh, 108 up to maybe.
Yeah. Maybe 130 hi-yah about 130.
Yep. And that's what we've gotten
down to. And then when they reverse
dieting, where they tend to like, where they start to
normalize like hormonal e metabolically, what caloric
intake when they're building back up, they tend to To
normalize that. So generally around depending on
the athlete generally end up, you know how much muscle they
have and that sort of thing. I see them do pretty well.
Up around the 1802 about 2,200 once we have reversed all the
way back up. Yeah, I think that is that is
huge and a lot of people want to make sure they need to listen is
podcast. Doesn't hear that 1,200 number
and think that's what sustained indefinitely because a lot of
people come to me and they're like oh I've been eating 1200.
Diaries for the last eight months and nothing is changing.
And that, that's that happens way too often like way too many
people are eating way too little.
So having that because that, that period of time is only like
a week or two and are you doing high calorie days during that
Peak Week, period? Just toward the end.
I'll do a high-calorie. It's not toward the beginning,
Friday, the day before the show. Usually, yeah, yeah, that's what
I do as well. So, while calories are super
low, at the lowest, they still get one high-calorie day to kind
of offset that really low calorie intake, which I think is
also hugely important. Like people, it's interesting
like when you do competition prep, when you work with
athletes going through a competition, Prim, you have a
much better pulse on how the body is responding to the
different color. Manipulations you're making and
how it's impacting their hormones and metabolism and all
that comes with that. And that's a concept that I feel
like a lot of people just simply wouldn't never really had the
opportunity to get insight on because you just get such a
better grasp of it when you're going through a competition prep
and most people frankly are not going through competition preps
but the principles that apply to competitors are also directly
applicable to people that are just trying to be healthier and
change their body composition. Absolutely.
And you know to kind of add more to the the calorie talk.
Like you said, there are a lot of people who, you know that
12:00 number is kind of in their mind a lot.
Gosh, I'm not seeing any results and so when I have an athlete
come to me, who does want to compete, one of the biggest
pieces of the conversation that we have to have.
One of the biggest discussions is, Where are you right now?
How are you eating right now? What are your calories look like
right now? And so I have them track for me
for a bit. So that I can see where we're
starting because potentially, if this pertinent gosh, there are.
There's a lot of women who, I mean, they're even down at, you
know, 1,000 calories. Hmm.
And so I'll let them know, you know, we're going to need a
period of time to work together. Before we start your prep, we
need to get you on a baseline here so I can get them set up.
And just as, you know, a customized meal plan client to
kind of build them up, so that, I can, you know, get them some
sort of metabolism so that we have somewhere to go because I'm
not going to be able to put somebody through prep.
Who's starting at 1000 calories, 1200 calories, or even 1,400
calories. I'm not going to be able to help
you. Because how much more can we
really cut down? Yeah.
And then we have to sort of establish that Foundation.
I have that same conversation a lot and a lot of people don't
want to hear that like they just want to do a prep, they just
assume that it's going to be you know gravy and they could just
keep cutting calories. But there's there's only so much
caloric Runway, so to speak, and if you've already run out of
Runway, there's there's nowhere else to go except starvation.
Nobody wants that. Exactly.
But yeah, this this is good. This is this kind of stuff that
I want to put out there in the spotlight because more people
need to know the implications that come with you know, caloric
manipulations and just chronic dieting and general.
So let's dive into the reverse. So after the competition, you
know, like like we kind of touched on earlier a lot of
competitors have that - Rebound, put on a bunch of weight over,
you know, not not very long period of time at all.
What have you noticed happening when following a ketogenic
protocol? As a reverse diet compared to
carbon based protocols? Gosh.
It is just it's actually pretty mind-blowing to me to watch my
athletes. Post-show not blow up because
that was just always a given before.
It's like that was just going to happen.
And now with the ketogenic protocol it's actually
interesting because you know you would almost think especially if
it's an athlete who hadn't always been key do before.
But now they are because of competition prep you might think
that they are just you know chomping at the bit for prep.
Be over. So they can go back to their old
lifestyle but because they realize how good they feel both
just in general in life, but also comparative to other
athletes that they've now met who have been zombies.
They really don't want to go back to how they were eating
before. So the, a lot of them are very
willing to stay keto, and then we just start to titrate back up
on those proteins. And those carbs, I'm sorry and
those fats, Until we can get them back up to that place.
Where great. Now, we've got your metabolism
back up here because being at that low metabolism for too
long. That's when we start to see, you
know, thyroid applications, adrenal implications, those sort
of things. So it's really important to get
those calories back up to a healthy place.
But doing that properly and I mean, I have to say and I worked
very close closely with my athletes.
I have a good bond with each of them because it's really
important and I don't, you know, There's no such thing as it's
show day and then see you later. You know, we still need to
continue this post show and so, but yeah, I just have yet to
have a keto athlete, have a major rebound effect?
Post-show, do you feel what? Actually in the entirety.
So, like the prep itself, the peak week, the reverse diet, in
all of that, do you notice our do you ever Implement like like
carb up? Targeted carbs to cook carbs at
all for any of your athletes. Have you noticed any reason to
So I have a little bit with some not all again because not all of
them need it but if I have some athletes who are having major
Cravings during certain times of the month or you know and it
just really isn't letting up and we've increased the fats and
we've done all those things that we know to usually do, I will
sometimes allow them but it's it's going to be yams, you know?
It's going to be sweet potatoes, something like that too.
To just get those carbs in there and see if that helps them.
I might do it for one night or two nights, allow them to have
that. And a lot of times, it seems to
really help with that that leptin sensitivity again to
where they're fine to move forward.
So, I one girl right now who she's actually about to compete
next weekend, not this weekend, but the next and she's one where
I've had to incorporate a couple of times a month.
You know, some car bucks here and there but my other two girls
one, another one is With her. Another one, just competed a
couple weeks ago. I haven't had to do that with
them and so, you know, it's just really being in tuned with each
athlete to see what it is that they need.
Do you notice that they have those carb cravings when
calories at more of a sustainable higher level or is
it just when calories are pretty low, you know, it's hard to say
because they so rarely talked about cravings and so like with
this Ticular athlete. It's kind of just been
throughout the prep when we were higher in calorie.
And when we were lower, and when we are lower in calories, now,
it's kind of that same feeling that she's had.
Although, but those carbons have really taken care of it for her.
So, you know, it's just really been a non-issue but I don't, I
actually don't see Cravings increase in my athletes.
As we're dropping their calories lower.
I had Ali Miller on the podcast while back and we were diving
into you. Averaging carbs for women during
their cycle to help normalize their cycle.
And she went into detail about how that works from a biological
standpoint, like the with the leptin, in the grown, in the
hormones. But she basically alluded to the
same thing could be accomplished just from in taking a higher,
you know, amount of food. And that this was not talking
about competitors, Pacifica. So some rules may not quite
apply, but just people in general, I feel like a lot of
females are quick to look for carbs.
As a way to satisfy our, as a way, to normalize their cycle,
where in reality, it should probably be emphasizing just
getting enough food. And that could be a really great
Point too. Because, you know, by
incorporating the extra carbs, you know, we're incorporating
more calories. And so you know maybe that that
could also be accomplished by a higher calorie that, you know,
higher calorie keto day. So that's certainly something
worth trying as well and I'm like, you wear Gosh, I don't
know everything as a coach by any means and I am always open,
you know, in any aspect to to learn more to.
I mean I'm just always wanting to learn more so I think that
yeah that could be definitely something we're trying.
Well, it is cool for me to hear somebody else following a
similar protocol. What I Implement with my own
clients as well. I mean there's there's a very
unique approach to going through a competition prep following
legitimate, ketogenic diet not like a, you know.
Form keto diet but I can actual ketogenic diet and, you know,
both of us having competed following traditional methods
versus what we know and Implement now it's like the more
the more competitors we see implement this that I don't
know, it's just better, like people are healthier, it's more
sustainable, there's less Damage, Done metabolically,
hormonal e for both male and female athletes.
So it's cool for me to hear you, describe your protocol and me
pretty much recognize it very To my own and know that we're
sharing the same message. That's that's good.
Yeah, I love that. So let's switch gears a little
bit. I want to dive into what I want
to go two different directions. I want to talk about the Spartan
races first because I've had a few people in the podcast and
they just Dove deep into obstacle course racing and my
interest has been piqued. But I have not yet, pull the
trigger and pick the race so you have done your like the Spartan
Race Master. Now, right?
Well maybe one day, I do have because I have such a wonderful
husband. He has built two rigs for me,
that we have here at our house. So I do have basically every
Spartan obstacle at home to practice on.
So and we do those regularly and so, yeah, actually tomorrow I'll
be doing the El Cajon Beast, which is a 13 to 15 mph.
Martin Rees, and that will have. I think, somewhere around 30
obstacles I've got Another couple races in November another
race at the beginning of December.
And then I have my big this for me is kind of like a just sort
of a one-time bucket-list thing that I think I'm going to do.
Because I don't I don't know that it's very smart but
mid-December I'm kicking on the ultra Beast, which is going to
be a 30-mile Spartan with 60 obstacles, and it's gonna be a
beast for sure. Yeah. 60 obstacles. 30 miles and
Where's that one? Okay.
That one will be the Central Coast in California.
Is it pretty cold there in California?
I don't know me. Ya know, and the code actually
at the coast right now. So I was kind of keeping my eye
out on the weather over there to see what it's doing and it's
actually still like high 80s and even 90s some days.
So I'm really hoping that it's, you know, I'm thinking it should
probably be around the 70s. The coast generally is pretty
stable, year-round on their weather So I'm curious because
the, the mindset of a competitive figure athletes like
you were versus that of a competitive Spartan athlete like
you are now, has there been a shift?
I have you changed at all in your approach to, you know, how
you view competition, how you, you know what your goals are in
doing that event, or has that pretty much stayed the same
throughout, because I've looked at how I view competing on stage
and I like competitions because it's like as its individual
sports, not a team sport, I'm not a fan of team sports for me
personally, it's just not my thing.
I like being able to push myself, do you get the same vibe
from a Spartan or is it, is it something different entirely?
So I will say that there are both similarities and
differences between, you know, figure competitions.
I also competed quite heavily in Cross.
Competitions and now competing in Spartans.
The similarity. There is that they are all
individual sports. And so I like you prefer the
individual aspect to all of these things.
So that 41 is a similarity that they all have but they all are a
little bit different. So for me, the reason, so I
actually stopped competing in figure competitions and 2012.
And I remember at that point, I was single and living on my own
with my two bullmastiffs and I would date but it never really
worked out because I think that one thing that we can both agree
on is I'm not going to blame the reason my dating didn't turn
into more I'm not going to blame it on figure competitions but it
was one aspect because it's a very selfish Sport and so you
know because it's all about an especially with how I was doing,
you know, I wasn't using a ketogenic Approach at that time
and so it was just you know, eating 67 sometimes eight times
a day. My coach had me eating the
cardio that you had to do in the morning.
The cardio that you had to do at night.
I was, you know, the job I was working at that time was 10
hours a day and you know, then you set up photo shoots, you
know, all these things. And I remember Still Loving
competing but making that decision that this is going to
be my last show. I feel like I need to hang up
the figure suit and just move on to something different that
still allows Me to compete because that's just innately who
I am. Which is when I then switched
over to CrossFit, but is it going to require such a
regimented routine and such a weighing of all of my food and I
can't go there because they don't have the right things for
me to eat. And I really don't want to go to
the movies because that popcorn is going to smell too good or,
you know, all of those things. And so that was really, the main
reason I stopped competing in figure, as well as You know,
there's this aspect in the bodybuilding industry.
One of the biggest, one of the biggest things about it is it's
a you know it's a political Sport and it's all subjective.
Yeah so I really wanted to enter into something that was more
measured. It's like you won or you lost.
You did more reps or you did less reps, you lifted more
weight or you lifted less weight.
And so, I was kind of ready to just enter into something that
was just more A goal. They on a judge who may be
preferred a blonder over a brunette or a brunette over a
blond because at the end of the day, that's what it could be
which that's actually one of the other conversations I have with
a lot of my athletes is don't put a lot of weight on your
placing here, you know, because it's all subjective.
And so that's when I switched over to CrossFit and I would say
kind of the CrossFit and Spartan thing were there, they're very
similar to each other. Other what happened with
Crossfit and I competed in Minnesota, I competed in Miami.
I did it pretty heavily for about four years.
I absolutely loved it. But the training for me, I
remember the day that I cleaned 200 pounds and I thought like,
what do I really want to get up to do?
I just want to keep going going going, like is my body going to
be able to sustain this and I felt like I was constantly
Nursing my left shoulder, I was constantly going to the
chiropractor for my lower back and it's like I was spending
more time trying to fix myself up and so that's kind of when
that sort of all goes into. Also when I went through my
adrenal exhaustion but I just kind of had to take a step back
from that and the reason I love the Spartan races so much.
Now we're not dealing with all of that.
Heavy weight repetitively over and over again, it's more its
endurance. It's you know you are using the
Your glycolytic system as well but we're not doing you know,
we're not we're not cleaning. There's no reason to clean 200
pounds in your training for a Spartan Race.
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense there.
I mean, from the bodybuilding perspective, I totally agree
with you, on the subjectivity of the judging involved, and, you
know, that that makes it hard because I am very much a
data-driven, like, measurable style person.
So there's been competitions that I've remember last
competition, I won A division but I lost the overall and I'm
pretty sure it was simply because of the the color.
Like the tan I used was it was solid but it was like a
different shade than I normally use because what I normally used
was sold out when I when I order the color and it was just crazy
to like lose based off of the the coloring from from a
definition standpoint from a symmetrical standpoint.
I feel like I had had a competition hands down but the
subjectivity that comes with it can without a doubt be Ting.
So I totally like, where you're going with, you know, the
Spartan races in CrossFit being much more measurable.
My own one knock against CrossFit is because I just feel
like there's, there's so much more opportunity for injury and
a lot of the movements that they incorporate.
And oftentimes, you get, you know, one trainer, overseeing
70, people at some of these CrossFit Gyms.
And there's no way they can really get the attention.
Give the attention they need especially for someone that's
newer to the sport and doesn't really know.
How to how to operate their muscles effectively?
I mean, there's a lot of room for injury there.
Where's with the Spartan races? It's not as injury-prone.
I wouldn't think? Yes.
And so I spent a lot of time defending CrossFit when I was
doing it. And, you know, because I would
say, oh no, you know, you just have to watch your form and make
sure that you don't, you know, don't get too crazy while you're
doing the workouts. Don't push it too hard, you
know, and but the reality is that's what crossed it's all
about it. Is, you know, you've got the
person next to you. Everybody wants to keep up and
you told yourself, you weren't gonna, you know, push it that
hard. And if your form got bad, dude,
slow down. But you don't, and You know
toward the end, it just got to where I couldn't deny it anymore
that and I absolutely love CrossFit.
I personally do a lot of CrossFit style workouts.
At my house, we have a shop. We are Jim is on our shop here
at the house, but it's different with me doing it here by myself,
as opposed to out with, you know, a group of other people
that I'm competing against is a little bit different, but the
shoulder injuries in CrossFit are just, I mean it's almost
across the board. Yeah, it's really hard to tell
somebody. Said, an extreme athlete.
Not overdo it that those words don't tend to sink in very well.
Exactly, that's exactly it. So with the Spartan races, I
feel like my business. There's been several different.
Don't know if they're called federation's or brands, or how
they've got the, what's with the lingo is, but there seems to be
a lot more obstacle course, races popping up becoming
available is Spartan just from from my perspective, totally
laypersons far as obstacle courses are concerned.
It seems like Kind of like the king though, you know, I don't
know if Spartan is the king, or if Tough Mudder, is the king, I
really am not sure. But I'll tell you, the reason I
chose Spartans over Tough Mudders is because I'm sure
they're very similar in many ways, but in the Tough Mudder,
there is an obstacle that you have to go through where there
are all these cables hanging from really high and they hang
straight down and you have to Run through them and they
electrocute you. Yeah, I heard about that it does
not sound appealing. Yeah and I just can't get on
board with that. And so I mean I've had several
people tell me how they feel like they've just been you know
punched directly in their chest from that you know electric
shock. And so I didn't go that way.
And so I do Spartans that's a good enough reason to me I don't
think anybody can argue that I've heard.
I don't know if this is anywhere close to the reality or the
truth but I've heard that there's been A push to get
Spartan races and I don't know if it's Sport and specifically
just obstacle courses in general, into the Olympics as an
Olympic sport. Is that true?
Oh, I have not heard that it would be amazing.
There are some really amazing Spartan athletes out there.
And honestly like from you look at all the different sports
across the board and you try to find like like functional
strength, they call it, you know, like you want to be able
to do things in training that have a direct carry over to
Improving your day-to-day function and I look at, you
know, what I do as a bodybuilder and there's definitely some some
crossover there, like being able to dead lift a barbell directly
applies to my ability that, you know, pick up seed bags, all day
long. But I feel like, as far as
anyone's Port goes being really effective as a obstacle course,
athlete would have probably the most direct correlation to
performing better in day-to-day activity.
Yes, and I really love that idea.
I think that has a lot to do. I think that was one of the
things that I really liked initially about going into
CrossFit and then it's now what I really love about Spartan,
which I feel is, you know, even a little bit more realistic to,
you know, really being functional and and day-to-day
life and really being able to, you know, pull yourself up and
hold yourself up and all of those things that especially for
women who generally have a really hard time with, you know,
even doing one single pull up. And you're not using carbs to do
these races, right? You're sticking strictly to
threat the obstacle course races in your able to write.
Yeah. Function.
Just fine. You know.
Yeah. And I actually had tried before
kind of loading with like sweet potatoes or yams because like I
said, I'm always up for. I'm always up for anything
that's going to help me. So I'm willing to experiment and
try different things but I can't really say that the Yen's did
much for me. Me in terms of, you know,
quote-unquote filling up your glycogen stores for more energy.
I will sometimes on my longer runs my half marathons.
I will actually utilize Manuka honey and I really like to use
that before and during my races, but what I really enjoy
utilizing and this is for both running.
And and for my Spartan races is the Vespa the Best bow works
really, really well for really helping you utilize your body
fat for energy and what is that? Exactly.
I soldered conference but I haven't used it myself.
Yeah, so Peter defty is the owner of Vespa and I think he
was actually at Key token. I don't know if it was two years
ago or three years ago, might have been three years ago.
Anyway, it turns out he lives here in my area and so so we
talk regularly and I actually sell his best bet out of my
store and so he's, you know, came and talked to me quite
extensively about it and it's like a wasp extract, but the
idea behind it is it it allows your body to use your fat for
energy. So you take a packet about an
hour before you're going to race and you let it settle for about
20 or 30 minutes and then the the key to it is going on at
just kind of a nice warm-up jog for about 20 minutes or so.
And then at the end that way you're kind of getting in your
system and at the start line you take another packet of Vespa and
and you take off And then mid-race maybe an hour in an
hour and a half two, and you take another Vespa, and it just
literally feels like Rocket Fuel.
I mean, we're talking that these have like, five grams of carbs
in them, it's, you know, next to nothing compared to like the
Goos, you know. So it's a, it's a wasp extract
like that extract of of what. Exactly.
It's a wasp extract. Huh.
I'll definitely. Yeah.
That's that's crazy. It's yeah, it's very
interesting. It's incredible for he says,
it's also great for athletes who are not.
He do, you know, I don't know about that.
But for being ketogenic, I have really enjoyed using it.
And so, sometimes I'll combine it.
And also use a manuka sport is the brand, but they have this
Manuka Honey, which can also be utilized like a goo.
But at least, you know, I enjoy the fact that it's a honey.
And the Manuka especially has so many Any benefits, so many
health benefits. So for me, it's kind of like, if
I am going to put any sugar in my body at all, I want it to at
least have some sort of other, you know, benefits for me and
it's an antimicrobial, and I'll be singing.
So I feel a little bit better about that.
What about like the like the you can starches, have you played
around with those at all? I have not.
That's like the hot thing right now in the streets they raised
playing around with you can Super Storage because it is
supposedly impact your glucose. Yeah yeah.
A lot of people, it's Funny. I feel like the keto spaces
getting pretty experimental lately which is good.
You know, the more the more people can try and test things
out and see how it responds then the better.
I'm curious to see, you know, where the chips fall and
everything that will be interesting.
Yeah, I agree. So I got one more series of
questions for you. It's related to all of your
experience with nutritional therapy.
So, with you being keto now and following the fat based diet,
how have you what? What have you noticed with
regard to your gut health? And have you noticed any adverse
effects from? You know not incorporating.
I'm assuming you're probably not taking in as many dietary fibers
carbs as you were prior. So how has that impacted things?
Well, so I mean there's it's kind of like two things going on
because you know, getting involved or getting into
nutritional therapy and that whole aspect of the education.
In my mind, I was going through those things because I wanted
to, you know, expand my knowledge, be able to help
people further and on a deeper level and what really ended up
coming up. It was identifying some
imbalances and things that I had going on with myself.
And so, one of the things that I have dealt with nearly my entire
life was chronic constipation, and it was just something that
was a part. In my life and I had accepted.
And that's just how it was always going to be.
And so, you know, I've actually had to, I've run a, you know, a
GI map on myself and food, sensitivity, testing and to sort
of identify what was going on on the inside.
Because, see one of the things was, I had switched to a
ketogenic protocol and when I ran my GI my GI map test, which
is a, it's a stool test and it's a DNA stool test and it's going
to identify anything that's going on in your gut.
It'll tell you anything that's living in your gut and he
pathogens parasites, worms, anything like that?
Luckily, I didn't have anything like that, going on.
However, my Seattle credit level was high.
Meaning, I was not digesting and absorbing my fats properly,
that's not good. So then it's not good.
So then what good is a ketogenic diet going to do for me if I'm
not even utilizing those fats and so I had to do it.
Really take care of my gallbladder and some things.
So that now I can and, you know, and I absorb and digest my fats
very well. My energy is much, much higher
and chronic constipation is a thing of the past.
So in all of that with, yeah, I really don't intake much fiber.
And as a matter of fact while I don't you know label myself as
any certain type of Quito I will say that during the week I
pretty much just eat meat and organs and then on the weekends
if I feel like it I might throw up.
In an avocado or maybe I feel like having a salad and then
maybe I don't, we just sort of depends on my mood or my
husband's mood on what we feel like eating.
So yeah, I really don't in. Take a lot of fiber and yet,
I've never been so regular in my life.
Yeah, I honestly, follow pretty similar proko myself.
I'd I don't label myself as a corner of warm because I'm not
100% carnivore. All eat, you know, a random
salad or obviously. I like to keep them bricks or
something like that. But I can confidently label
myself as a strict, keto person, you know that?
I stick this tricky do, but I feel like, you know, I don't
feel any benefits. Anytime I do ingest carbs or
broccoli carbs, in the form of vegetables, like broccoli or
salads, any thought that? I don't notice any benefit
whatsoever if anything, I notice more of a bloat.
So the only time I'll ever take it, just something to have a
little bit of variety to my my you know, food pallets.
That's pretty much the only reason I'm ever.
Ever consuming think it's nuts, animal-based, and that's I'm
right there with you on that. Anytime I do consume it and I
know that I would probably have a lot of my colleagues who would
agree with me because, you know, they're very big on variety of
vegetables and all those things. But any time I eat it.
Yes, it's really simply out of the fact of, you know, that
sounds good right now totem. But other than that, you know,
that's about it because I, you know, I get a lot of liver, I
eat, cod liver, you know, beef liver, Those organs there you
know if you just so dense in those micronutrients did you
increase like did you have like ox bile supplementation when you
were just in your there for a while and kind of getting your
gallbladder producing like it should or would you do during
that period? Yeah.
So why I took so generally when a person still has a gallbladder
but it's not functioning properly, you don't generally
want to give that person Ox bile salts because you don't want to
tell the gallbladder to Sure to stop doing what it's doing, but
sometimes in some more severe cases, it can be a good idea to
do a bottle or two of ox bile salts.
And then switch over to a gallbladder.
Support supplement, that doesn't necessarily contain the ox bile
but other nutrients to support your gallbladder and that's what
I did. I actually went through two
bottles of the ox bile salts to get everything on track and and
then now just take a gallbladder support. and, you know, those
existed like particular brand that you recommend Yeah.
So I usually for that we'll use the biotics research brand and
what all is in it just a gallbladder support, what does
that entail? You know the the trying to think
the beta TCP has the I'm trying to remember, which of vitamins
it has in there. It doesn't have the aux file and
I'm not remembering off the top of my head, which vitamins the
beta TCP has, although I could probably find my bottle of it,
but it does amazing without actually having your
gallbladder. You know, think, oh, I don't
need to, you know, do what I normally do with the bile
because, you know, she's giving it to me.
Yeah, yeah. That makes Sense and there's
never any good good that comes with supplementing.
To the point of shutting down your body's own natural
production. Exactly, exactly.
And send you can do that sometimes for a period of time
that you don't want to do it, you know, for too long.
Yeah, I know that it's got the one of the really great things
about it. Is, it has the it's got beets in
there and beats are really good for gallbladder.
Support the only time when it's really a bummer is, if is, if a
person has a sensitivity, a food sensitivity to beat them, were
not able to use the beta TC P, but there's other things like
Choline which is really great for gallbladder support as well
which the choline is really found in egg yolks.
And so if you're eating a lot of eggs that you know was very
helpful too. You mentioned that during the
week, you probably sticking to meet and organ meat.
So what kind of like what's a typical day of eating look like
for you? I guess a good question.
Well, I start off in the morning with a, I'm on a cold brew kick
right now. So I generally will do some cold
brew, with some raw heavy cream in there.
And I, if I, if I allowed it to, that would actually Hold me over
until about, you know, maybe one or two o'clock, I do, try to eat
a little, I tried to eat earlier than that because I am and have
been dealing with some adrenal and thyroid issues and so it's
important to make sure that my body doesn't feel like it's ever
in a, you know, starvation State.
And so, I will sometimes I don't like to have a heavy meal early,
but I might have something like four pieces of bacon.
And I might do that sometime like around 11 or so in the
morning and then and then I usually just do two meals.
And so my meals might consist of you know 8 to 10 ounces of a
variety of meats. Maybe some tri-tip and maybe
some chicken thigh. I'll throw some cod liver in
there. My next meal might be a you
know, organ. Meat Burger, you know, a couple
of Patty's there. It's really simple, which I
think is one of the things that I love the most about it is that
it's just such an incredibly easy way to eat.
So my two meals they pretty much are very similar to each other
and it might just be, you know, 8 to 10 ounces of whatever meat
I'm going to do and I don't really do.
I don't add a lot of fats, I'm not a big, you know.
I don't really add butter to things or I really enjoy fattier
cuts of meat. So I don't, you know, I really
rely on my rib eyes and things like that to supply my fats.
Yeah, that sounds honestly pretty similar.
That what I do is well, it's crazy how similar our Protocols
are here, that's funny. Yeah, I feel like the it's just
honestly liberating to be able to eat, you know, once if you
wanted to but on a normal day to day, you know, two meals a day
and you're good and it doesn't have any kind of negative impact
on on your training inability to perform whereas you and I both
come from, you know, eating six to eight meals a day.
There's just there's no life that comes with that.
I mean your whole world revolves around food whereas with keto
it's just you can you can have your life back and you can be
free from all the strain of, you know, revolving, everything you
do every decision. You make every where you go
around. What you're eating that day.
Yeah, I mean, I remember when I was competing and I would wake
up at 3 a.m. so So that I could eat my eggs in my oatmeal.
Before I drove to the gym to work out at 4:30.
I mean, that's like being a prisoner.
Yeah, it's not, not sustainable, not now, not with any degree of
actual enjoyment. I'm curious.
Have you seen the game changers documentary?
Gosh, I have not yet but I'm planning to my husband and I
actually have plans to watch it on Sunday after we get home from
the race this weekend. I I see a bunch of posts being
made a better and I guess it was just released here recently.
Yes, I watched it this past week with, with Danny and Adam, Danny
Vega and it was, it was interesting.
I mean, we, all three are key do.
So it was, it was kind of like a.
It's just, I'd be interested to get your take on it when you do
watch it, because having heard what you said about everything
that you've done and have done in the past and what you're
doing. Now I think we got a pretty
similar to approach to, you know, an attrition.
So I'd be curious to get your feedback on an FDA after you
watch it. Yeah, I'm both.
Looking forward to and cringing at the at the thought of
watching it. Well, I will say this, the
actual production quality was really good like the the, you
know, the way they put the film together was really impressive,
the content, the actual content of the film was not so much but
the the production quality which is kind of unfortunate because
since it was so well, polished, I feel like it's going to steal
a lot of people that direction and the there's just it's just
Lacks the science and the research, you know.
Well and that's why I'm cringing because I'm thinking, you know,
that it must have been a well-made documentary because
I'm seeing even people in my local area.
So there's an acquaintance that I have here.
He actually owns a Mexican restaurant in the area here and
he, he runs gosh, I think he just did a half Ironman and so,
you know, he's pretty active and all of a sudden Sudden he's
posting these pictures of his food, you know, and hashtagging
game changers and it's just obviously everything meatless.
And I'm thinking know how on Earth this guy who I know has
been a big meat eater. I mean, you know, he's Mexican
which in and I am too, so I can say that, you know, we generally
are not vegetarians and so now, you know here he's going vegan
after watching that documentary I mean, just like that and I
feel like it's happening with people.
So so Do I have to watch it? Yeah I feel like you know all of
us in the keto space. I owe it to ourselves to watch
it because I feel like that just gives us more leverage that we
need to be educated on what everybody's doing and why
they're doing it. If we're educated.
Then we can have a greater impact because we know we can
become part of the conversation as opposed to just being this
ignorant biased and of the just shout slander from the
sidelines, you know. Like I want to be in the know
and I want to know why people are gravitating towards one
protocol over another But it was, I was unimpressed with the
research, it was just it was very deceptive, and kind of how
they laid things out, and it was just honestly bad information, a
lot of it. So now I wasn't too impressed
with the quality of the information itself so hopefully
people will watch it. And recognized that there were
definitely some blind spots there that they need to do a
little bit of homework on themselves and not just take it
at face value. As fact, you know, yes, and I am
in agreement. If you, I think that it's very
much our responsibility to make sure that we are, we do watch
these things because, you know, because I am going to have
clients, which I'm surprised I haven't yet.
But I am going to have clients, come to me and say, hey, how
about that, you know, game changers?
And I need to be able to say more than.
Oh, just don't listen to that. Yeah, definitely definitely what
Sonia? I would sit here and talk to you
all day long, but I've already taken up over an hour of your
time. Will definitely do it again
though. I'm like I said, I'm In to
follow along and see what you're doing and why?
Because I respect everything, you said this far.
And I feel like we do have a pretty similar approach to why
we're doing things, the way we are.
So I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me.
Yeah, I have very much enjoyed this.
And would love to talk again, 100%.
Well, where can people go to find out more about you and
learn something? Oh, yes.
And actually, before I give that information, let me also say
that I'm ready to be your first wholesale account for keto
bricks, when you guys are ready. Oh, well, that's, that's awesome
news. We're actually working on
getting all that set up. Right now, we're trying to get
some packaging finalize that right now, our packaging, we've
had multiple stages in changing our packaging, where those
stand-up pouches which were great but they're hard to open.
They're just not, they don't look professional.
So we've transitioned from that to this equipment, that we have
now that puts him in those, you know, silver they're called it's
called a flow rapper. So basically flow wrapped
package but then we're going to get custom packaging on top of
that. So that the The film itself is
custom and once we have that, then we can start reaching out
and trying to, you know, get on store shelves and do wholesale
if that's the direction we want to take things.
But yeah, that that's in the works as we speak.
Awesome. Awesome.
Look forward to it. Yeah.
So you can find me at my website which is pretty easy.
It's Tanya Pennington.com and also my Instagram account is
Tonya. Got Pennington.
I will certainly get to those and Tony again, I really
appreciate you taking time Time. If there's ever anything I can
do by all means, shoot me a email.
Let me know and we'll make it happen.
Awesome, sounds good. It's been great talking to you
likewise. Likewise take care.