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Well, hello ladies and gents, 
Robert Sykes, Keto savage.com 

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and today we get special guest 
Mark Touricoat on the line and 

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we dive into a little bit of all
things nutrition and training 

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related. 
So he and I've been in contact 

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on Instagram for years now. 
He follows kind of more of a 

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cyclical ketogenic diet and he's
kind of always gone back and 

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forth with me on different 
philosophies and protocols 

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toward nutrition. 
Always respectful, always good, 

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healthy discourse. 
We don't agree on everything, 

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but that's why I wanted to bring
him out of the conversation and 

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podcast with him because I want 
that healthy discourse to be 

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made available because I think 
it's where people learn. 

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So we covered a lot all about 
nutrition, different dietary 

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protocols, different 
philosophies, different 

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scientific studies. 
We talked about training a 

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little bit and his protocol 
towards that. 

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Third, enjoy the conversation. 
I've got no doubt that you will 

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take something from it so that 
further delay. 

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Sit back, relax, enjoy the 
podcast with Mark. 

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And we are live, Mark, how are 
you, ma'am? 

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I'm doing great, Robert, Glad to
finally connect with you. 

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Yeah, Yeah, for sure, man. 
We've been going back and forth 

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on IG for probably years now at 
this point. 

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And you've always got some good 
insightful stuff to throw it in 

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the conversation, which I 
appreciate that. 

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I guess we've had a little bit 
of dialogue on, on e-mail, but 

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most of it's been through 
Instagram, some kind of 

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scrolling back through our, our 
direct messages here. 

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And it's all coming to me now, 
man. 

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So you've got a ton of it. 
You've been in the keto low 

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carb, you do more of a cyclical 
ketogenic approach, but you've 

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been in the low carb space since
before it was popular, which is 

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I've always got respect for 
people that have been in the 

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space before it was a big thing 
because I don't know, like I 

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like the people that are on the 
cutting edge. 

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Yeah. 
You know, keto, it's, it's gone 

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through a lot of changes over 
the years. 

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You know, it used to be, you 
know, pretty, pretty 

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underground. 
Not very cool. 

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And then and then, you know, 
Atkins kind of came on the 

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scene, kind of popularized it a 
little bit. 

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And I think it's lost a lot of 
popularity recently. 

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I I think, you know, it's still 
kind of starting to get a bad 

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rap. 
There's, there's some, there's 

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some bad studies out there right
now that are, that are saying 

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keto is, is, you know, harmful 
to, you know, cardiovascular 

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disease and, and different 
things like that. 

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And, and most of those studies 
are, are, they're, you know, 

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they're worthless. 
They're, they're just 

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epidemiology and just 
observational studies. 

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And they weren't done, they 
weren't done very long. 

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There's no control group 
involved. 

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So I, I don't hold a whole lot 
of stock in those trials. 

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But but yeah, it's, it's kind 
of, it's kind of been a wave, 

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you know, it's, it's been, it's 
been kind of hit or miss for, 

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for a lot of years. 
I got started on keto. 

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Gosh. 
Do you remember the book Body 

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Opus? 
Yeah, yeah. 

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So that what I believe was in 
the mid nineties, 9596 that 

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let's see, I graduated. 
So I'm 56 years old now. 

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I graduated when I was in 86. 
So that would have been, you 

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know, 10 years after I 
graduated. 

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And I was, I was pretty, pretty 
involved with, with 

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bodybuilding. 
I don't think that I started 

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competing yet, but just was 
always just a huge passion for 

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me. 
You know, I just, I just wanted 

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to get big. 
And then I finally decided, you 

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know, hey, let's, let's do a, 
let's do a show. 

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And, and I tried various diets 
and I, I just, I couldn't stick 

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to a diet, you know, I, I just 
mentally, it was very hard 

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physically it was very hard. 
I didn't really know a whole lot

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about dieting back then. 
I thought it was just, you know,

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eat less calories, train more, 
you know, and hopefully get 

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lean. 
But, but I, I started to kind of

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educate myself a little bit on 
dieting and started to really 

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develop a passion for it. 
And I I kind of stumbled upon 

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what you remember the magazine 
Muscle Media 2000. 

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Yeah, the magazines where I, I 
kind of got into it, man, 

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because this was like, see, I, I
was born in 91, so I'm a little 

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younger than you, but when I got
into lifting, man, there was no 

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Instagrams or any of that stuff 
back then. 

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So like the magazines and the 
old school underground books is 

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what was that? 
Yeah, yeah. 

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So Dan, so, so Bill Phillips. 
Yeah. 

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So, so there was a lot of good, 
good stuff in Muscle Media 2000 

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and it was, it was pretty much 
an underground type of magazine 

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and it came out like quarterly. 
But they had some really 

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interesting writers. 
One particular man was Dan 

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Duchesne, who I don't really 
know that he had any formal 

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schooling. 
I know he wasn't a PhD, nothing 

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like that, but he just had a 
passion and a love for, for, you

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know, training in, in all things
pharmaceutical and all things 

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nutrition. 
And he, he wrote the book body 

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Opus and he was kind of, he was 
kind of a Guinea pig, did a lot 

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of self experimentation. 
I, I, I think he actually ended 

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up passing away from, from 
kidney disease. 

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I think it was hereditary. 
And I, I know he was doing a lot

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of anabolics at the time too, 
but but yeah, so I kind of, I 

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kind of stumbled upon him and 
really like to read his 

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articles. 
And, and then I found this book,

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Body Opus, you know, the 
underground dieting book. 

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And, and I think I had three, if
I can remember correctly, it's 

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been so long. 
I believe it had three diet 

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approaches in it and one they 
called the Militant Diet 

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Handbook, which was, which was I
think what the Body Opus was, 

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which was a cyclical keto 
approach. 

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It was, it was ketosis Monday 
through Friday. 

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I want to say, you know, 70 to 
30% ratios of, you know, fat to 

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protein. 
And then it had a weekend carb 

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structure, which was, I mean, it
was stupid brutal. 

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They had you eating carbs like 
every two hours, I think it was.

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And it was based on a 
calculation according to your, 

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you know, your lean body weight 
and whatnot. 

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And so I, I started following 
the diet and, and I loved it. 

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It was an amazing diet. 
Got super carried away on, on 

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the carb UPS on the weekends. 
I remember just just, you know, 

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waking up Monday morning after 
carving up for two whole days, 

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just, I mean, just feeling 
horrible, just ridiculously 

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swollen to the point where, you 
know, I, it was sub Q water 

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everywhere, everywhere. 
It looked horrible, felt 

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horrible. 
So you did a few weekends of 

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that just because it was fun, 
You know, I mean, it was great 

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to eat carbs and, and a lot of 
it was, it was junk carbs. 

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They weren't good carbs. 
I was eating lots of pizza and 

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Donuts and, and, but I, I was, I
would get ridiculously, you 

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know, hydrated from it. the 
Super compensation effect was, 

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was unbelievable. 
And then after being on it for 

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several weeks, you kind of 
learned how to kind of titrate 

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your carbohydrates back down to 
a comfortable level, you know, 

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where you weren't consuming, you
know, 1500 to 1800 grams of 

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carbohydrates over those over 
those two days. 

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You know, I found somewhere in 
the realm of anywhere from 5 to 

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1000 actually felt really good. 
And and then it was back into 

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ketosis, you know, shortly 
after. 

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I mean, I think your last carb 
meal was I believe at like 6:00 

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Sunday evening and then it was 
no more carbs until until either

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Saturday morning or, or Friday 
night. 

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I usually start at my carb load 
on Friday night. 

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But I did this for, for many, 
many years. 

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Did, did. 
I didn't do a lot of competing, 

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but I did, I did a fair amount 
of shows. 

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I, I won some state level shows.
I went national for a while and,

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and it worked well. 
I responded very well from it. 

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I think over the years I, I 
really experimented with, with 

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the carving up aspect of it, you
know, I, I was still reading a 

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ton of, you know, information 
and then I, I kind of had the 

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belief that maybe the carbs 
weren't as important as I 

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thought they were. 
So I experimented with, with 

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different approaches, you know, 
going low carb, going no carb, 

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you know, it's just staying 
strict keto for a long time. 

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But, but I always fell back into
the, into the cyclical phase 

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because I just never, it never 
felt good. 

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I felt OK, you know, mentally I 
felt sharp, you know, but, but 

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physically I just, I just didn't
have that same, that same pump 

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that you would get from 
training, you know, a couple 

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sets, you know, after, you know,
after eating a lot of carbs and,

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and the pumps were just 
unbelievable. 

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Whereas if I didn't have the 
carbohydrates, I just felt like 

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it, it, I just didn't have it. 
My strength was good. 

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I had no complaints there. 
I had good strength. 

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I, I, I look good, you know, I 
was, I stayed pretty lean, but I

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just didn't have the same, you 
know, feeling in the gym where 

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you just have that muscle mind 
connection in that and that 

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pump. 
It just didn't seem like I was 

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able to, to maintain it. 
So I've always gone back to 

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carbohydrates. 
I I feel that they're, they're 

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an essential tool, maybe not 
essentials, right word. 

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They're they're, they're a tool 
that's there if if you choose to

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use it, I don't think everybody 
needs it. 

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I think you can, I think you can
grow without them. 

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I mean, you're good, you know, 
proof of that you, you put on a 

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ton of size and I know you don't
do any, any carbohydrates, but, 

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but for me, it just it, it's, 
it's harder to, to train, you 

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know, 110% when I don't have 
fully loaded glycogen in my 

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muscles. 
I can train decently, but I, I, 

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but I feel like, like it's just 
a little bit, not quite as 

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intense as it would be if I had 
carbohydrates. 

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I feel like I move a lot better 
and harder with carbohydrates. 

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Again, I don't, I don't 
necessarily think that. 

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I mean, they're certainly not 
necessary, right? 

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I mean, they're not necessary. 
We know that. 

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And, and I think protein too, I 
think, I think, you know, 

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figuring out the right protein 
amount as well plays a huge role

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too. 
Because if you're not doing 

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carbohydrates at all, and, and 
you may disagree with me here, 

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but I think then maybe you need 
more protein because then you do

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need some amount of 
gluconeogenesis to facilitate 

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more glycogen in your muscles. 
Otherwise you're going to be a 

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little, a little flat a lot of 
the time. 

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And I, and I'm not a big 
believer in, in, you know, too 

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high protein kicking you out of 
ketosis. 

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I think that's kind of a 
fallacy. 

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I think that it's, it's a, it's 
a, a demand driven process. 

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It's not supply driven. 
So if your, if your body needs 

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more glucose, which we, you 
know, we make glucose all the 

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time, right? 
It's going to make it 

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regardless. 
If you're taking in, you know, 

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300 grams of protein a day or 
150 grams a day, I don't think 

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it matters. 
Gluconic extensions is just 

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going to be an inevitability of 
being on a ketogenic diet. 

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But I think that if you have 
more protein, you can 

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potentially put more glycogen in
the muscles if you're not doing 

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carbs. 
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree 

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with that. 
I've found that for me 

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personally, and I've kind of 
seen this in clients as well 

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over the years. 
But like if, if I go extremely 

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high with their protein, they do
notice, you know, increased 

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inflammation and there just 
seems to be like a, you know, a 

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point of diminishing return with
that protein. 

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And I, I mean, I, I'm pretty 
aggressive with that. 

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So I, I try to push it as far as
I can, but I just noticed more 

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inflammation. 
And then at some point, you 

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know, if they're having a lot of
gluconogens is taking place, 

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it's likely having some negative
impact on overall fat 

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metabolism. 
But I'm not worried about 

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consuming protein for the risk 
of getting kicked out of ketosis

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because I'm in the surplus and 
I'm eating a lot of protein. 

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My ketone numbers are always 
lower, but it's not like my body

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is not fat adapted at that 
point. 

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Sure. 
Yeah. 

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00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,120
You know what? 
What do you consider a lot of 

222
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,840
protein? 
Like for me, a lot of protein, 

223
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,760
I'm 5, seven and a half and 190 
right now. 

224
00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,960
So for me, a lot of protein, 
like I start to notice an 

225
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,080
adverse effect when I'm 
consistently consuming more than

226
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,040
250g. 
And that's, I mean, that's a 

227
00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,560
pretty good hefty dose of 
protein for some of my stents. 

228
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,040
Yeah. 
And when you when you say more 

229
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,040
inflammation, how, how are you 
defining inflammation? 

230
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,960
Mostly just like post lifting in
my joints, like I have much, 

231
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,720
much less recovery from workout 
to workout and I'm doing like a 

232
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,680
full body split. 
So I'm training everything every

233
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:44,680
single day. 
When I'm doing excessive 

234
00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:47,800
protein, I'll notice like I 
don't recover near as well in my

235
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,000
knees, particularly after like a
leg, you know, leg movements, 

236
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,440
for instance, I can't train 
those as effectively the 

237
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,960
following day. 
Whereas if I kind of titrate 

238
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,000
that protein back down to more 
reasonable level, I don't seem 

239
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,040
to have any of that inflammation
or pain at all. 

240
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,720
But at the same time, you know, 
you don't want to take it too 

241
00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:04,880
far. 
There's definitely this and 

242
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,960
you've been around long enough 
to see this, but in the 

243
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,760
beginning people were super 
fearful of protein and they they

244
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,680
just didn't consume enough. 
And now the the tide has shifted

245
00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:16,680
the other way where people are 
just consuming copious amounts 

246
00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:18,880
of protein. 
But I think the the sweet spot 

247
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,720
somewhere there in the middle. 
Yeah, I, I would, I would agree 

248
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,040
with you. 
I don't think that, you know, 

249
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,320
even even if you're staying, you
know, in, in full blown ketosis 

250
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,080
and you're not doing any carb 
OPS, I don't think that 

251
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,600
maintaining a high protein load 
every day is good. 

252
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,480
I, I think cycling through it, 
I'm a big fan of cycling. 

253
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,960
So you know, even like when, 
when I was training for 

254
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,480
competitions, I had, I had a 
formula where basically it was 

255
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,240
Monday and Tuesday were like 
protein sparing modified fast 

256
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,440
days. 
And, and I was consuming upwards

257
00:12:54,440 --> 00:13:02,480
of usually A1 to 1.5g, sometimes
2G at the high point of per lean

258
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,040
muscle mass. 
And, and, and basically that's 

259
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:07,280
it. 
Just just a protein sparing 

260
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,680
modified fast for two days. 
The couple reasons behind that, 

261
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,960
most importantly was I was just 
coming off a 2 day heavy carbo. 

262
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,360
So I, I wanted to, I wanted to 
deplete, you know, glycogen in 

263
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,080
my liver to get into ketosis 
faster. 

264
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,320
But I also didn't want it, you 
know, I didn't want to include a

265
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,880
lot of excess fatty acids as 
well because I didn't want to 

266
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,680
have a competing, you know, 
energy source. 

267
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,760
So my, my goal was to deplete, 
you know, liver glycogen as 

268
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,720
quickly as possible, keeping 
keeping the high, the high 

269
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,960
protein. 
I felt good on it for two days 

270
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,280
and then after that I, I would 
switch. 

271
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:49,680
So then I would drop my protein 
down to typically, you know, I 

272
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:56,320
would, I would take in about 40%
protein and about 60% fat and 

273
00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,720
then trace carbohydrates. 
So whatever came in from, you 

274
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,760
know, if I was eating eggs or 
cheese or stuff like that, 

275
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,720
whatever trace amounts of carbs 
came in, I didn't even count 

276
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,400
them. 
So about a 7040 split. 

277
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,560
And then, you know, come Friday 
or come, come Saturday, you 

278
00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:13,720
know, morning. 
I would then lower my fat intake

279
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,360
considerably and then raise my, 
my carbohydrates to about 60% 

280
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:23,720
just to start carb loading. 
And I allowed myself to, to take

281
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,200
in quite a bit of calories on 
those days. 

282
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,920
So if I was at, you know, maybe 
a 10 to 15% deficit throughout 

283
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,000
the week, you know, I would, I 
would eat upwards of two to 

284
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,880
three times my normal caloric 
intake on those days, at least 

285
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,360
on day one for a couple of 
reasons. 

286
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,360
This is another reason I think 
that carbohydrates are so 

287
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,800
important. 
I think that, you know, they're,

288
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,080
they're, they're great for, you 
know, for managing your 

289
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,480
metabolism. 
I think, I think, you know, it's

290
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:55,600
hard to, to keep your thyroid 
happy without some insulin 

291
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,960
production. 
Obviously we get some with 

292
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,600
protein, but, but I don't think 
enough to really, you know, 

293
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,480
convert a lot of inactive T4 
into T3. 

294
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,520
And that's what I found was, was
what happened with me is the 

295
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,320
longer I would stay, you know, 
in a ketogenic state, I would 

296
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,000
find my body temperature, my 
core temperature would actually 

297
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,000
drop about A at least a degree, 
if not, if not more than that. 

298
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,440
And and that's essentially, you 
know, that's your thyroid T4 no 

299
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,960
longer producing active T3. 
So everything just kind of slows

300
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,480
down. 
So I found that with that carb 

301
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,760
up on the weekends, I was really
able to ramp up my metabolism 

302
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:35,120
again. 
And as soon as I started eating 

303
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,000
carbs, one of the first things I
noticed was I just started, you 

304
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,560
know, sweating just profusely. 
I would just sweat like a mad. 

305
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,360
And I, I mean, I ate a lot of 
carbs. 

306
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,440
That's carbon up. 
Wasn't like I had like a bagel. 

307
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,360
I mean, I was, I was pounded 
carbs and you know, carbs and 

308
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,840
water, you know, like it's in 
your muscles. 

309
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,720
My, my, my temper, body core 
temperature would go up and I 

310
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,360
just felt like I just wanted to 
just smash weights. 

311
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,120
That was the other thing carbs 
did for me. 

312
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,960
They I just wanted to train hard
and heavy. 

313
00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,240
When I would go long bouts 
without the carbs, my training 

314
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,960
intensity, at least for me, 
always just seemed to decline. 

315
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,400
I could never seem to maintain 
that training intensity on the 

316
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,560
lower carbohydrates. 
So I think everything's a tool 

317
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,040
in your tool belt, right? 
I don't think I used to be very 

318
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,440
dogmatic, you know, when it came
to, you know, ketogenic diets, I

319
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,600
thought they were the be all end
all of, of all diets. 

320
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,040
And, and I still think, I think,
I think they're wonderful, but I

321
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,160
think they're, I think they're a
tool in the tool belt. 

322
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,400
You know, for a long time I was 
in that echo chamber where I 

323
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,960
didn't want to talk to people 
that that had a different 

324
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,320
opinion than than what I had on 
ketogenic diet just because I I 

325
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,840
thought I'd figured it out. 
This is it. 

326
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,440
Insulin makes you fat, you know,
avoid carbohydrates, eat plenty 

327
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,880
of fat, good amount of protein, 
you're good to go. 

328
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,840
And I think for the most part, 
there's, there's a lot of truth 

329
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,440
there. 
I just think I've learned to, my

330
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,560
opinion on insulin has changed a
lot. 

331
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,960
You know, I, I've, I've read a 
lot, a lot of books on, on, you 

332
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,440
know, insulin and I was a big 
Gary Tobs fan for a long time. 

333
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,079
And you know, the insulin model 
obesity and, and, and it has, it

334
00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:22,960
has a lot of, there's a lot of 
validity there. 

335
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:28,640
But, but I think I, I look at 
insulin now as, as a dial, it's,

336
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,840
it's never on or off. 
It's, it's always on. 

337
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,200
It's just how high are you 
turning that dial up and how 

338
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,840
long is that dial staying 
elevated? 

339
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,880
I think is, is the problem with,
with a lot of people and why we 

340
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,800
have so much, you know, insulin 
resistance. 

341
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,480
I think the fact that people 
just had that dial turned up all

342
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,040
the time and it never comes 
down, right. 

343
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,120
I mean, insulin's supposed to 
do, you know, it's supposed to 

344
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:54,520
do what it does. 
It's supposed to go up with a, 

345
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,680
with a carbohydrate response and
then it should come back down 

346
00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,720
fairly quickly as, as should 
your blood sugar. 

347
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,480
I mean, all those, those are all
normal responses, normal 

348
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,720
physiologic responses. 
They're not, they're not 

349
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,840
necessarily bad. 
They're bad when they're 

350
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,800
elevated all the time. 
Yeah, but they're also bad when 

351
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,040
they're down all the time. 
There's a lot of benefits to 

352
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,320
insulin. 
And if you're constantly in a, 

353
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,000
in a chronically low state of 
insulin all the time, without 

354
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,840
the blood sugar spikes, you 
know, you can have adverse, you 

355
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,280
know, consequences with, like I 
said, thyroid, you know, 

356
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,480
cortisol production, different 
things like that can really 

357
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:35,520
influence your health. 
And I so the a lot of, a lot of 

358
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,680
why I've changed my mind. 
I don't know if I've been real 

359
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,360
vocal on this, you know, in any 
of my posts. 

360
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:44,520
I mean, I posted about it, but 
but I usually don't post about 

361
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,680
it a lot, but about, you know, 
I'm into biking, right? 

362
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,520
So I was out at a place called 
Ray's. 

363
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:58,600
It's in Cleveland, OH. 
And it's, it's an indoor bike 

364
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,760
park. 
It's like 280,000 square feet. 

365
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,960
It's, it's enormous. 
And, and if you ever get into 

366
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,640
biking, definitely go there. 
It's, it's incredible, 

367
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:09,720
especially now that you have 
kids. 

368
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,320
Take your kids there when 
they're a little older. 

369
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,440
Oh, and congratulations, you got
another one on. 

370
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:14,120
The way. 
Appreciate it man. 

371
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,040
Yeah, absolutely. 
Kids are awesome. 

372
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,000
But when your kid, when your 
kids get a little older, take 

373
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,240
them there because they have 
something for everybody there. 

374
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,000
It's it's just a blast. 
But so we planned this vacation 

375
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,880
we were going to be there for, 
for four days just riding at 

376
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,960
Ray's. 
And this was almost three years 

377
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,560
ago now. 
Went to raise and didn't, didn't

378
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,000
stop at our hotel first went 
straight to raise. 

379
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,600
And it's my first time at raise 
2, by the way. 

380
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,880
And we're there riding my, my 
son. 

381
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:47,800
He's, let's see, he's 14 now. 
So he was about about 1111 or 

382
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,440
12. 
And we're riding for about four 

383
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,720
hours pretty hardcore. 
You know, we're in full face 

384
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,800
helmets because there's, there's
jumps everywhere. 

385
00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,760
It's just, it's, it's a pretty 
dangerous place to you. 

386
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,400
But you, you kind of, you use 
your own skill level and you 

387
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,440
ride at your ability. 
We're there for four hours just 

388
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,960
just crushing it, just having a 
ball. 

389
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:12,200
And we're getting ready to leave
and we load up the bikes in the 

390
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,840
truck and I wasn't feeling that 
great. 

391
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,600
And my wife says, do you want me
to drive? 

392
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,200
I'm like no, no, no, no, I'm 
fine. 

393
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,040
And so get in the car, in the 
truck, we start driving and I'm 

394
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,280
still in the parking lot and I, 
I get to the edge, you know, of 

395
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,760
the parking lot, getting ready 
to turn on the street and we're 

396
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,120
putting in the, the coordinates 
to try to find our hotel. 

397
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,720
And I said, I, I really don't 
feel good. 

398
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,880
And, and now, I mean, now he's 
feeling really bad. 

399
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,160
And I couldn't really put my 
finger on anything. 

400
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,800
You know, as far as you know 
what, it was just a general 

401
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,680
malaise. 
I just, I just felt horrible. 

402
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,120
And she's like, do you want me 
to drive? 

403
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:53,840
I'm like, yeah, go ahead and 
drive. 

404
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,880
And so we switch. 
She gets in the driver's seat, I

405
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,360
get in the passenger's seat. 
We just turn onto the road and 

406
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,240
I'm like, oh man, you got to 
call the ambulance. 

407
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:08,240
I had this horrific jaw pain and
I was sweating profusely. 

408
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,840
And she tries getting reception 
on her phone and and she can't. 

409
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,440
And she pulls into AI. 
Think it was a QVC or something.

410
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,720
Not QVC, but CVC and runs in, 
makes a phone call, calls the 

411
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,480
ambulance and an ambulance get, 
gets there and they throw me in 

412
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,480
the rig. 
They do an EKG and, and lo and 

413
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,800
behold, I'm having an acute MI 
And so I'm, holy shit. 

414
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,600
So I, one of the things I've 
done over the years is I'm a 

415
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,640
cardiac tech. 
So I, I do stress testing on 

416
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,600
people. 
I know all about all that stuff.

417
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,080
I've been doing that for, for 
many years. 

418
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,760
It's right at my wheelhouse. 
So I, I kind of knew what was 

419
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,600
happening before they told me 
and they get they, they drive me

420
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,800
to the Cleveland Clinic. 
Luckily I'm in Cleveland. 

421
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,160
So I end up in the Cleveland 
Clinic. 

422
00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:01,200
I end up in the Cath lab and 
they, they sucked out a, a 

423
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,760
blockage, a plaque and they put 
a stent in and I never had any 

424
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:07,760
other issues. 
I still don't have any issues to

425
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:08,680
this day. 
Everything's fine. 

426
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,280
Every all my arteries are clean.
I just, I just had, I had a 

427
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,080
there was a clot, unsure what 
caused the clot. 

428
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,880
It could have been from, from 
plaque most likely was although 

429
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,280
I had no indications that I 
would have had anything like 

430
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,800
that. 
The only issues that I had for 

431
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:33,720
many, many years was I had 
pretty high LDL and I was always

432
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,440
under the belief that from all 
the reading that I had done, you

433
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,320
know, I, I follow all these 
guys. 

434
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,040
I follow, you know, Dave Feldman
and, and all his stuff that he's

435
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,760
doing and, and you know, Nick 
Norwich now and, and I've been 

436
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,960
following this for a long time. 
You know, there's a lot, lots 

437
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,280
of, lots of doctors that that 
have the same view as far as LDL

438
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,640
not being a risk factor. 
But I had high LDL. 

439
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,280
I've had it ever since I've done
keto. 

440
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:03,720
I've just always kind of thought
it's not important, you know, 

441
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,440
LDL doesn't cause heart disease.
How high are we? 

442
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,200
Talking. 
What's that? 

443
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,400
How high are we talking? 
Like what was your average LDL? 

444
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,160
My my highest was LDL was 290 
which which had my total 

445
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,880
cholesterol almost 400 but I 
would sit right around 2:50-ish 

446
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,480
most of the time. 
My triglycerides were always low

447
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:30,480
44 HDL was always about 52. 
So I wasn't quite a lean mass 

448
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,960
hyper responder for because for 
that criteria your, your HGLI 

449
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,200
think has to be like 80, but I 
was borderline lean mass hyper 

450
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,040
responder. 
But you know, always had real 

451
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,920
low CXC reactive protein. 
You know, my, my A1C was always 

452
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,040
like 5. 
You know, blood, you know, 

453
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,360
fasting blood sugar was always, 
you know, like like 90, you 

454
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,080
know, 89. 
Everything was always good. 

455
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,000
I had, with the exception of of 
I had some blood pressure 

456
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,440
issues, but nothing crazy over 
the years. 

457
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,520
So and that was all that was 
treated with medications, but I 

458
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,640
had this lingering thing in my 
head about LDL. 

459
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,240
And so after having the Mii just
started to kind of re evaluate 

460
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,560
that and rethink that. 
And so I've kind of had a, you 

461
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,200
know, an A ha moment that, you 
know, maybe there is something 

462
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,480
to this. 
And so I've been delving into 

463
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,400
this a lot lately too. 
So, but that was the only I know

464
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,640
that that's a thing that people 
talk about when they go on keto 

465
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,560
or carnivore, that their LDL 
goes up, APOB goes up and a lot 

466
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,680
of people ignore it and say it's
not an issue, you know, because 

467
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,440
metabolically they're 
metabolically healthy. 

468
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,360
Everything else is good. 
I just don't know that I agree 

469
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,480
with that anymore. 
That's one of the things I've, 

470
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,000
I've kind of really changed my 
thoughts on, you know, as of the

471
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,080
last, you know, 2 1/2 to almost 
three years. 

472
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,520
What was your diet like at the 
time of that incident? 

473
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,240
Were you doing the strict keto 
then? 

474
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,880
Were you doing the cyclical 
approach at that time? 

475
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:04,320
At the time of the event, yeah, 
I was doing, I was doing 

476
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,120
cyclical, but it, but it wasn't 
with big carb UPS. 

477
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,520
It was, you know, a, a meal or 
two at the most. 

478
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,840
So I would go usually a couple 
of weeks. 

479
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:16,920
I would, I, I did it on how I 
felt. 

480
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,400
So if I felt good, if the gym 
work was good, I didn't carb up.

481
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,560
If I felt like I needed a carb 
up, I'd have, you know, I would 

482
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,240
eat a couple, you know, 
relatively small meals of 

483
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,920
carbohydrates, nothing crazy. 
And, and I had deviated from, 

484
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,480
you know, doing the, the, you 
know, the shit carbs to, to, you

485
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,680
know, to more wholesome type of,
you know, carbohydrates. 

486
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,400
So I didn't do big carbs UPS, 
but but I did for many years, 

487
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,480
you know, so who knows, maybe 
maybe it was just from that. 

488
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,600
I, I, I don't, I guess I'll 
never know, right. 

489
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,800
But it just, it just makes you 
think it's like, is there 

490
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,160
something going on here? 
And so I started doing a lot of,

491
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,920
you know, I listened to, you 
know, Bill Cromwell a lot, who's

492
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:11,160
a, who's an expert lipidologist 
and Dr. Dayspring, he's like one

493
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,320
of the leading, you know, 
lipidologist in the world. 

494
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,000
And, and they're big proponents 
of, of lowering APLB for for 

495
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,200
various reasons. 
Number one in, in their opinion,

496
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:28,240
expert opinion, it is causal, 
causal meaning that you can't 

497
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,720
have a SCVD without it. 
It's it's like the main 

498
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,320
ingredient, right? 
I mean, without, when your LDL 

499
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,880
levels fall below 50, you know, 
like for instance, people that 

500
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:43,240
have loss of function PSPCS K9, 
you know, they have very, very, 

501
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,800
very low levels of LDL because 
they, their body does not 

502
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,560
produce the PCs canine protein 
that binds with the LDL receptor

503
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,880
to pull LDLS or for for LDLS to 
stay in the system. 

504
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,160
So, so they're, they're just 
like in this perpetual cycle of,

505
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:02,960
of, you know, pulling LDL out 
constantly because it never 

506
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,320
stays in the, in the, in the 
system. 

507
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,480
You know, LDL is one of 
lipoproteins that that has a 

508
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,440
high resonance time. 
So it's in the in the body like,

509
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,440
you know, three to five days, 
you know, we're at other ones 

510
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:13,880
are, are they're not there very 
long. 

511
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,480
So they have more, there's more 
of a chance of them doing damage

512
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,000
if they're there longer. 
So when you have loss of 

513
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,240
function PCSK 9, the LDL 
receptor doesn't get bound up 

514
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,560
with a protein, so it's 
constantly eliminating, you 

515
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,360
know, LDL. 
So those people virtually have 

516
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:33,440
no ASCBD. 
And conversely you get the 

517
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,760
people that have gain of 
function PCSK 9 and and they 

518
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:43,760
have a lot of ASCBD because 
their liver is not clearing LDL.

519
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,760
At least that's the assumption, 
right? 

520
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,360
So, so I guess, I guess, you 
know, it's, it's funny how you 

521
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:52,400
have an idea in your head, 
whether it be, you know, 

522
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,360
nutrition or, or, you know, 
lipids or whatever. 

523
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:58,120
And, and you then you have this 
epiphany later on in life. 

524
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,760
And then you have a just a 
completely different, you know, 

525
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,120
world view on, on what's really 
happening. 

526
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:05,760
I think, I think it's very 
complicated, right? 

527
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,840
I think most things are multi 
factorial but it just it just 

528
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,440
makes you second guess a lot of 
stuff. 

529
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,840
Yeah, which is why, I mean, 
that's why I wanted to get you 

530
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,880
on the podcast in the 1st place 
because I mean, you and I have 

531
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,440
kind of gone back and forth on 
IG and it's always been in a 

532
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,640
respectful manner, which I 
appreciate because I don't ever 

533
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,800
want to be dogmatic or dealing 
up absolutes. 

534
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,520
And with nutrition, that's 
typically where things are 

535
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:28,600
taken. 
Like people have this 

536
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,280
information silo effect and they
just stay in their own echo 

537
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,680
chamber. 
And I'm not a doctor, I am not a

538
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,440
lipidologist. 
This is not my area of expertise

539
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,080
in that regard. 
I've done what I've done and 

540
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,960
I've experiment with multiple 
different things and I found 

541
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,680
what works well for me and I've 
been able to emulate that in my 

542
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,800
clients. 
But I don't ever want to be 

543
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,360
dogmatic in my thinking because 
then you just stagnate. 

544
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:51,600
There's no growth that takes 
place. 

545
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,120
Well, and that's one of the 
things that I've appreciated. 

546
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,200
You know, when I do, you know, 
I'll, I'll question some of the 

547
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,240
things that you say. 
And again, I try to, I try to do

548
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,760
it in a respectful way. 
I hope, I hope I'm accomplishing

549
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,960
that. 
They're always just very 

550
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,080
gracious, you know, you'll, 
you'll, you'll, you'll have your

551
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,360
opinion. 
And and it's nice. 

552
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,280
It's, it's nice dialogue to 
have. 

553
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,280
Whereas, you know, yeah, I, I, I
said something the other day to 

554
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,000
somebody else and you know, 
they, they got, they got pretty 

555
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,640
uptight, their, their panties in
a bunch and they threw some 

556
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,280
expletives at me saying they 
don't give a you know what. 

557
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,600
And they've been doing it for 
this long and it works on all 

558
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,480
their clients. 
And I don't care what you have 

559
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,560
to say. 
So I thought, huh, OK, well, it 

560
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,080
wasn't like I was telling you 
what to do. 

561
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,960
I was just giving you my 
opinion. 

562
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,600
You know, I think, I think, I 
think opinions are important. 

563
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,480
I think science is great. 
I, I think, you know, there's 

564
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,160
not a lot of really good 
science. 

565
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,440
So it's, you got to really read 
through the bad science. 

566
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,920
I mean, most science is, is all 
observational epidemiology, you 

567
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,480
know, with some meta analysis 
thrown in there, but, but very 

568
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,680
few RCTs. 
So it's, it's, and nutrition 

569
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:56,800
science is one of the worst, 
right? 

570
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,960
I mean, it's very hard to to 
really precisely determine 

571
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,160
what's going on. 
And I think anecdotes are great.

572
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,280
I think they tell us a lot. 
But one person's anecdote is 

573
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,960
maybe completely different than 
someone else. 

574
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,920
So we're all homo sapiens, but I
think we all respond a little 

575
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,480
differently. 
And I think based on, you know, 

576
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,720
how our hormones are, are 
working because I mean, those 

577
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,800
are the key players, right? 
So hormones really influence 

578
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,280
everything. 
So if you're someone that that 

579
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,200
is insulin resistant, you know, 
you're probably not going to do 

580
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,440
well eating a high carbohydrate 
diet. 

581
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:41,040
You're just you're going to be 
chronically hyperinsulinemic and

582
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,120
and these things are really 
going to cause a lot of issues 

583
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,720
over time. 
So I think it's very 

584
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,400
individualistic, you know, how 
people approach nutrition. 

585
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,760
And I think that that there's, 
you know, I just think we have 

586
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,480
too many echo chambers now. 
And, and you know, and I used to

587
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,080
be, I used to be in it, you 
know, So it's, it's great to 

588
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,880
find people that, that are 
willing to, you know, to, to be 

589
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,280
a little insecure and maybe 
admit that, that, you know, they

590
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,600
don't have it all figured out. 
Maybe they've got it all figured

591
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,600
out for themselves and maybe 
things are working great, but 

592
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,040
but to to to be willing to 
listen to other people that have

593
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,040
maybe a slightly different 
perspective. 

594
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,280
Yeah, and I think it's key, man.
I feel like in and one of my 

595
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,120
biggest frustrations with the, 
you know, keto carnivore crowd 

596
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,120
is that they often times are 
very guilty of, you know, just 

597
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,160
digging in like a tick and just 
not white knuckling those echo 

598
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,640
chamber thought process. 
And that's that's not good for 

599
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,800
anybody. 
I mean, I, I'm grateful the fact

600
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,280
for the fact that I got into 
this before it was popular 

601
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,640
before, you know, this is what 
my brand was like. 

602
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,560
I didn't have that. 
And in the beginning it was, but

603
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:46,720
it was just pure, it was 
innocent. 

604
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,640
It was just, OK, let me figure 
this out for myself. 

605
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,360
And I had done, you know, have 
you, have you read John Kiefer's

606
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,880
books? 
Oh, I was a big John Kiefer fan.

607
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,680
Yeah, I got, I have car back 
loading. 

608
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,360
I have carbonite solution. 
As a matter of fact, I was just 

609
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,120
Googling him the other day 
trying to figure out what the 

610
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,760
heck happened to him. 
He like fell off the face of the

611
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:02,640
earth. 
Yeah, yeah. 

612
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,800
But I, I mean, that was kind of 
my introduction to keto, you 

613
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,480
know, kind of by, by accident, I
mean, I, I'd done the bro 

614
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,440
dieting, then flexible dieting 
and you know, I was doing a 

615
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:13,920
whole bunch of carbohydrates 
myself. 

616
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,840
And then I, I didn't do his 
carbonite solution. 

617
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,800
That's pretty similar to the 
body opus protocol. 

618
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,320
I had done his car back loading 
protocol. 

619
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,640
So every single night I was 
having the high glycemic index 

620
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,280
carbs, but I just felt better 
without him. 

621
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,360
So I just cut them out kind of 
by way of defaults and was doing

622
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,280
keto without even knowing that I
was doing keto. 

623
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,720
And then I kind of finessed the 
macro distribution to figure out

624
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,040
what I was performing best at. 
But yeah, man, I mean, I'd been 

625
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,880
playing around with carbs for 
the first, you know, however 

626
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,600
many years of my bodybuilding 
career. 

627
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,920
So I feel like I've got enough 
perspective to be able to speak 

628
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,800
on how it impacted me. 
Whereas a lot of people, they've

629
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,880
always only done one or the 
other, so they don't really have

630
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,400
a leg to stand on when an 
argument comes up. 

631
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,400
Yeah, no, 100% yeah, No, I, I, I
know you know, you and I have 

632
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,400
talked in the past how how you 
know, you've done, you've tried 

633
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,720
the carb thing and, and it just 
didn't seem to pan out for you. 

634
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,360
Just like staying strict keto 
better. 

635
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,680
And, and, and I understand that.
I just, I think that like you 

636
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,440
said, a lot of people have never
tried it, you know, so they just

637
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,440
threw whatever, you know, 
strange opinion they think they 

638
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,320
have. 
They they, they comment on it 

639
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:20,600
like, like they know something 
about it. 

640
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,760
Yeah, totally. 
I do think you know, like for me

641
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,440
I put a lot of emphasis because 
I'm, I'm in a complete agreement

642
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,960
with you with regards to 
optimizing hormone health, 

643
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,520
metabolic rates. 
And I think there is a vast 

644
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,600
majority of the people in the 
ketogenic space that go keto or 

645
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,280
carnivore because of its 
satiating nature and they just 

646
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,920
chronically don't eat enough. 
So I'm cyclical in the sense 

647
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,040
that, you know, I have very 
defined periods of time where 

648
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,160
I'm at a pretty pretty 
significant caloric surplus 

649
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,880
followed by periods of time in a
deficit for, you know, 

650
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,280
competition prep or fat loss 
phase. 

651
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,440
And I think kind of undulating 
between those two does 

652
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,720
tremendous benefit from a 
hormonal and a metabolic 

653
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,920
standpoint. 
A lot of people aren't kind of 

654
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,440
going between those two in a 
very effective manner. 

655
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,680
They're either constantly in a 
surplus or constantly in a 

656
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,920
deficit, or they're just, 
they're just bringing too many 

657
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,120
variables in the equation, but 
they're not really fine tuning 

658
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,600
either of them or any of them. 
So I think transitioning from 

659
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,920
times of the surplus 2 times at 
a deficit helps answer a lot of 

660
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,080
the hormonal implications and 
metabolic implications that come

661
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,320
if you just, you know, hard nose
one or the other. 

662
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,440
Yeah, I mean, that's a great 
point because you know, I used 

663
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,880
to think that that it was mostly
an an insulin thing and maybe 

664
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,199
it's just a caloric thing. 
Maybe you just need to be high 

665
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,719
calories for a while to really 
reap those benefits. 

666
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,360
Yeah, because. 
When I'm at the high calories, 

667
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,000
when I'm consuming, you know, 
250, sometimes, I mean, I've got

668
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,239
days where I've had 500 grams of
protein in a sitting. 

669
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,800
You know, I'm getting a definite
glucose response there. 

670
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,120
My insulin is being excreted. 
My body is functioning as it 

671
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,199
should in that regard. 
And then when you train to like 

672
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,920
when I wear ACGM, my blood sugar
will go up to, you know, 150 or 

673
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,920
160 in an intense training 
bound, you know, totally 

674
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:02,200
independent of carbohydrates. 
So I'm getting, you know, 

675
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:03,720
glucose response from that as 
well. 

676
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:08,040
So my body's going through these
these these processes, these 

677
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,760
physical processes. 
But a lot of people aren't doing

678
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,360
that at all. 
They're not eating ample 

679
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,080
calories. 
And if they're just chronically 

680
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,600
under consuming fuel, then yeah,
they're they're going to have 

681
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,880
drastic negative implications in
their thyroid health, their 

682
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,160
hormonal health, their metabolic
health, like everything's going 

683
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,560
to be. 
I mean, that's why bodybuilders 

684
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,240
don't stay shredded year round, 
because it's just not healthy. 

685
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,520
Right, it, no, it's, it's 100% 
not healthy. 

686
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:36,400
And, and then your, I mean, your
metabolism slows down so far, 

687
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,160
right? 
I mean, it's just hard to 

688
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:44,160
maintain anything. 
I, I used to do that, I did it 

689
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,480
in a, in a keto fashion as well,
you know, and I would do high 

690
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:55,280
periods of, of caloric intake 
and I was probably my heaviest 

691
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,800
if you looked at any of my, my 
Instagram posts when I was back 

692
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,480
when I was competing, but I used
to get up to my heaviest was 293

693
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,920
in the offseason. 
How tall are you? 

694
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,560
6 foot 511 six foot. 
Gotcha. 

695
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,480
Yeah, so my heaviest was 293. 
Now that that was with a decent 

696
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,480
amount of carbohydrates back 
then I was a pretty, I was a 

697
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,920
pretty heavy carb guy in the 
offseason. 

698
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,560
I took, I took in a lot of 
carbs, but I was probably taking

699
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,520
in 6500 calories a day on 
average. 

700
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,640
And then I would, I would cut 
down to at my, at my heaviest, I

701
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,880
was 234. 
At my best, I was probably about

702
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,400
2:16. 
So I would cut down 

703
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,840
significantly, but I would and 
then I found that I could do 

704
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,960
this without doing heavy bouts 
of carbohydrates. 

705
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,240
I would still, I would have a 
bulking phase where I would just

706
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,560
do a on my carb days, on the 
cyclical part of my carb days, I

707
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,840
would do heavy carbohydrates and
then back to keto during the 

708
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,560
week because more than two days 
for me on carbs. 

709
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,160
And, and I just, I just felt 
horrible. 

710
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,440
My, my body just just, and I 
guess maybe if I took in, you 

711
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,200
know, small amounts, I'd be OK. 
But, but then I didn't really 

712
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,520
see the, the hormonal response 
that I was getting. 

713
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,360
You know, when you're really 
getting that whopping dose of 

714
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,920
insulin and, and when you're, 
when you're so low for so long, 

715
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,440
you know, the, the theory is 
that you can, you know, super 

716
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,560
compensate your muscles, you 
know, which is why many people 

717
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,400
will carb load. 
I think, I don't think you do 

718
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,800
before a contest, obviously, 
but, but many people will 

719
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,760
because you can super 
compensate, you know, glycogen 

720
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,240
storage is in the muscle by 
depleting and then loading 

721
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:34,400
again. 
And I've always found that to be

722
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:35,720
true. 
Yeah, for sure. 

723
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:38,200
I mean, people get absolutely 
shredded, I mean, with 

724
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:39,760
carbohydrates. 
So I've never wanted to say 

725
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,520
that, you know, because there's,
there's some people in the keto,

726
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,040
low carb carnivore space that 
are just like carbs, the 

727
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,600
absolute devil. 
And they're going to cause a 

728
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,840
host of cancers. 
And it's all about insulin. 

729
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,440
And you know, the only reason 
anybody's fat is because they 

730
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:53,920
eat carbs. 
And I've never subscribed to 

731
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,720
that metallic. 
It's a very short sighted, you 

732
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:59,840
know, viewpoint. 
Yeah, I have, I've been in that 

733
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,720
camp, you know, so it's, it's 
not a good place to be, but I 

734
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,000
was definitely there for a 
while. 

735
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,800
I I was, you know, big into, you
know, insulin makes you fat, 

736
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,160
period. 
That that's it. 

737
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,080
And and there's, you know, 
obviously there's some truth to 

738
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,280
that, right? 
I mean, because, because 

739
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,200
without, without insulin, you 
know, you can't, you can't, you 

740
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,560
know, I mean, what does insulin 
do? 

741
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,120
You know, it, it shuts off, you 
know, hormone sensitive lipase, 

742
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,840
right? 
So, so you're no longer, you're 

743
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,920
no longer liberating fatty 
acids, you know, to, to then go 

744
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,840
through lipolysis. 
So, so because of that insulin 

745
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,640
effect, you know, it can become 
very difficult to then, you 

746
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,080
know, burn fat if you're, if 
your insulins are, is 

747
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,200
chronically elevated. 
And I think this happens to a 

748
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,920
lot of people that, that have 
insulin resistance. 

749
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,800
I think it's a, it's a, it's a 
big problem with people because 

750
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,400
again, like I said earlier, 
insulin's a dial, right? 

751
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,800
But if your insulin's constantly
elevated with, you know, with 

752
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,440
people that have, you know, 
diabetes and I mean, what's what

753
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,520
is diabetes? 
I mean, diabetes is, is a 

754
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,560
disease of high insulin, right? 
I mean, it's not high blood 

755
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,440
sugar. 
What defines the disease is high

756
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,880
insulin. 
You become resistant in insulin 

757
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,600
and then you have to take in 
exogenous insulin to get the 

758
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,840
same type of storage mechanism 
that you would have had you had 

759
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,600
a normal functioning, you know, 
pancreas. 

760
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,200
So it's a disease of high 
insulin. 

761
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,280
So most of these people usually 
have a very difficult time, you 

762
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,760
know, burning body fat. 
And, and conversely, what's, 

763
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,040
what's type 1 diabetic? 
Type 1, not diabetic, that's a 

764
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,280
disease of low insulin. 
It's the complete opposite. 

765
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,240
So I don't even know why these 
two are in the same category. 

766
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:35,120
They're, they're, they're 
complete total opposites. 

767
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,440
So a type 1 diabetic typically 
will get very, very lean, eating

768
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,760
10,000 calories a day because he
virtually has no insulin output.

769
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,080
You know, eventually he'll, 
he'll get sick and die, right. 

770
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,120
But, but so, so there's 
definitely, you know, the 

771
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,120
insulin's definitely a huge 
driving factor, you know, when 

772
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,280
it comes to adding body fat or 
liberating body fat, you want to

773
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,320
be able to, to turn that dial. 
But I've always kind of, you 

774
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,920
know, I shouldn't say always 
more recently I've kind of felt 

775
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,160
like it's nice to be able to, to
kind of be in that modality 

776
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,280
where you can be a good at 
burning glucose, you can be good

777
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,840
at burning fatty acids, you can 
be good, good at burning 

778
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,160
ketones. 
Not being all or you know or 

779
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,440
nothing, to me it seems like 
that's not a good place to be 

780
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,320
because, you know, I mean, if 
you were like, for instance, if 

781
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,440
you were to take a glucose 
tolerance test, do you, do you 

782
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,840
think you would pass it? 
I'd probably fail it the first 

783
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,480
time I took it, but then if I'd,
you know, ate carbs, I'd 

784
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,680
probably pass it 48 hours later.
Sure, 100 percent, 100% agree 

785
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,480
with you, but but that's because
your body's not primed for, for,

786
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,240
for burning, you know, 
carbohydrates. 

787
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,120
But I guess that's the, the kind
of, you know, that flexibility I

788
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,440
think that I think is important 
to have with people, you know, 

789
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,600
being able to kind of move in 
and out of different energy 

790
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:53,960
systems. 
I think I think it's a great 

791
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,720
place to be for a, for a lot of 
people. 

792
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,080
I think, I think evolutionarily,
I think probably that's where we

793
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,520
were, right, Depending on where 
we lived. 

794
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,760
Obviously, you know, I mean, if 
we were, if we were in, you 

795
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,840
know, in, in the Arctic 
somewhere, I mean, there was, 

796
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:08,840
you know, carbohydrates are 
scarce, right? 

797
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,080
So you were pretty much eating 
just reindeer all the time and 

798
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,640
whale. 
But for most people, I think, I 

799
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,680
think we're constantly moving in
and out of those energy systems,

800
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,200
which I think is, is a great 
place to be. 

801
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,160
It may be the healthiest place. 
I don't know. 

802
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,600
I'm just kind of speculating. 
Yeah, it's, it's interesting. 

803
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,120
I mean, I don't disagree with 
anything you said. 

804
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,200
I've personally, you know, I 
don't think like some people are

805
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,000
worried that if you stay strict 
keto then you are no longer 

806
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,880
metabolic and flexible. 
I don't believe that. 

807
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,440
I mean, as I, as I said, I would
probably fail a or glucose 

808
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,320
tolerance test the first time, 
but then 48 hours later I would 

809
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,480
like to pass it. 
So it's not like your body 

810
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,720
forgets how to process glucose 
and carbohydrates as a fuel 

811
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:49,520
substrate. 
It just, it's kind of like a 

812
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,920
reverse keto fluid. 
People that have never been in 

813
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,360
keto and then they, they go, 
they, they have a hard time 

814
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,640
upregulating those metabolic 
pathways to perform at a 

815
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,680
heightened state or baseline 
state until their body has ample

816
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,560
time as that fuel substrate or 
with that fuel substrate. 

817
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,800
So like, I don't think I am less
metabolically flexible in the 

818
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,200
grand scheme of things by not 
having introduced carbs on a 

819
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,640
more regular basis. 
And and as far as you know 

820
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,400
what's optimal, you know, I 
don't know. 

821
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,760
But for me personally, I feel, 
you know, it's kind of like, do 

822
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,840
you want to be a Jack of all 
trades or master of none kind of

823
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:24,960
philosophy? 
And for me, my goal is to become

824
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,000
the best ketogenic natural 
bodybuilder I can. 

825
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:31,600
So I kind of lean into 
optimizing and perfecting with 

826
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,680
that given fuel substrate. 
But I totally agree with you and

827
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,280
that the vast majority of the 
people are not striving to do 

828
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,280
that. 
So what works for me and was 

829
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,480
optimal for me may not be in 
line with their goals in any 

830
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,320
form or fashion. 
Have you found that that guys 

831
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,400
that compete, you know, 
ketogenic like you do? 

832
00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:54,400
Do they are they strict keto or 
are they cyclical or? 

833
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,280
I mean, I've worked with with 
all different types of clients. 

834
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,560
Most people that come to work 
with me, they know me as a 

835
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,840
strict keto guy. 
So they want to adopt that 

836
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,480
approach as well. 
And I mean, they get shredded 

837
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,680
man, and they're able to fill 
out their vascularities on 

838
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,520
points. 
I mean they look great on stage 

839
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,520
as well. 
I mean, I think as far as the 

840
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,120
insulin goes, I think it was in 
John Kiefer's book, he said, you

841
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:14,760
know, insulin is an extreme 
growth agent. 

842
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,880
It causes muscle tissue growth, 
fat tissue growth, cancer cell 

843
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,920
growth, like it just causes 
growth in general. 

844
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,560
And there's a very possible 
chance that someone that 

845
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:28,080
consumes more carbohydrates and 
has higher function insulin, 

846
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:33,120
they're going to build more lean
tissue, but also along with more

847
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,480
fat tissue if they're eating and
a caloric surplus, obviously. 

848
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,000
And for what? 
For me, what I've noticed is 

849
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,840
that people that go that route 
then have to diet more 

850
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,280
aggressively to lose that 
additional body fat. 

851
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,760
So at the end of the day, when 
they step on stage, I don't see 

852
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,280
this market increase in, you 
know, net lean tissue versus 

853
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,080
that of someone who has not 
consumed the carb carbohydrates 

854
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,960
because they typically don't 
have to diet as aggressively 

855
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,240
because I don't have as much fat
to lose. 

856
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,880
Like when I was doing 
experiments with carbs before I 

857
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,920
started doing strict keto, I was
eating about 6000 calories and 

858
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,080
then I mimicked that experiments
with keto at about 6000 calories

859
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,440
with carbs. 
I got to 230 lbs and had just a 

860
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,440
lot more additional body fat 
than I did at the same caloric 

861
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:15,880
intake from a ketogenic 
standpoint. 

862
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,240
So you know, from a bodybuilding
standpoint, I wouldn't have to 

863
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:21,320
diet nearly as long or 
aggressively to cut that 

864
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,160
additional fat off, which means 
I'd be more prone to preserve 

865
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:25,440
the lean tissue that I had 
built. 

866
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,480
So at the end of the day, for me
as a competitor, the net effect 

867
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,600
of just staying straight keto 
results in better lean mass 

868
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,320
retention and less fat to lose 
in my competition prep cycles. 

869
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,280
As opposed to a cyclical 
approach or as opposed to like a

870
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,760
carbohydrate? 
Carbohydrate approach that I 

871
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,440
hadn't done that experiment with
a cyclical approach. 

872
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,320
Oh that. 
That'd be interesting to see how

873
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,240
that went. 
Yeah, yeah, for sure. 

874
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:51,440
I mean, I'm all about 
experimentation. 

875
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,080
Like I'm, I don't know that I 
would go that route now because 

876
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,880
like, for me, part of my reason 
for sticking with keto is, is 

877
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,360
also psychological because I 
know how I feel and perform and 

878
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,240
I've got more consistent mental 
clarity and cognition with the 

879
00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:06,960
ketogenic approach. 
And I've seen a lot of people, 

880
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,800
they'll go the cyclical route 
and they'll start out super 

881
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,400
clean, man. 
Like they'll just have, you 

882
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,720
know, some Jasmine rice or maybe
just a little bit of fruit. 

883
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:16,800
Like they'll do, they'll do all 
the right things, but then they 

884
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,720
wind up going off the rails and 
just bingeing on a bunch of crap

885
00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:22,280
carbs and they have to kind of 
like go back and then, you know,

886
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,920
correct course. 
And for me, it's like, I just 

887
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,160
don't want to fool with that. 
Yeah, I, I think for me and, and

888
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,080
I used to work with people too. 
I used to, I used to own a gym. 

889
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,800
I owned a gym for, for about 12 
years, a powerhouse gym and I 

890
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,120
worked with a lot of a lot of 
clients with, with nutritional 

891
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,120
programs and we did cyclical 
programs. 

892
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,120
And it seems like everybody 
always did the same thing. 

893
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,520
And I would tell them too. 
I would say on your carb night, 

894
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:53,080
eat whatever the hell you want. 
I don't care what it is. 

895
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,200
Chocolate cake, Krispy Kremes, 
you know, chips and cheese, I 

896
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,800
don't care. 
Eat whatever you want, satisfy 

897
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,720
your your cravings and then, you
know, get back on track the next

898
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,080
day. 
And everyone did the same thing.

899
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,360
They would just binge the first 
week, the second week, sometimes

900
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,080
the third week, usually by about
the fourth week of the program, 

901
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,360
they were so sick and tired of 
junk food that, that they were, 

902
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,680
you know, they were just eating 
white rice, maybe a little bit 

903
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,640
of fruit. 
You know, they, they really, 

904
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,600
they really tone down the, the, 
you know, the, the carb binge. 

905
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,600
They, they were no longer that 
prisoner that just escaped from,

906
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,720
you know, prison and was headed 
to the buffet. 

907
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,720
Yeah. 
They, they were just, they, 

908
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,480
they, they had that, that felt 
good. 

909
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:37,680
They did it. 
They had to do it right. 

910
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,120
They had to do it to get it out 
of their system because they, 

911
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:41,760
they wasn't that they hated 
keto. 

912
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,960
They just, they had these 
cravings all week long for 

913
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,240
carbohydrates and then when carb
dake would, would come, you 

914
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:48,960
know, they're like, well, Mark 
said I can eat whatever the heck

915
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:50,400
I want. 
So they would just, they would 

916
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,120
go to town. 
They, they still had great 

917
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:53,800
results. 
They had great results, you 

918
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,720
know, with the binge eating 
because it was only, you know, I

919
00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:59,680
told them like, look, you're 
going to start eating at 6:00, 

920
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:00,760
You know, when you get home from
the gym. 

921
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,520
Most of them were trained at 
about 55 o'clock. 

922
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,640
I said once, once you get home, 
start. 

923
00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:08,040
A matter of fact, if you want to
stop at Subway on the way home, 

924
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,800
stop at Subway. 
Start eating on the way home. 

925
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,840
When you get home, eat as much 
as you want. 

926
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,760
As soon as you put the fork 
down, you're done. 

927
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,960
As long as you're still eating, 
keep consuming. 

928
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,600
Soon as that pork goes down, 
you're done for the night and 

929
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,560
then you're back to, to strict 
keto the following morning. 

930
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,920
No, no cheating in the, in the 
middle of the night, no binging,

931
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,640
just, you know, fasting and then
start your, your diet again, you

932
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,720
know, Saturday morning and, and 
they had phenomenal results, 

933
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:35,160
but, but they all did the same 
thing. 

934
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,480
They all binged first. 
You know, you were saying they 

935
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,600
would start eating clean 1st and
then binge later. 

936
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,640
All my clients would eat. 
I did the same thing. 

937
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,840
I would binge first and then I 
would go to clean eating maybe 

938
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,560
two or three weeks later just 
because, you know, my gut 

939
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:49,960
couldn't handle all that food 
anymore. 

940
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,480
I just, I felt horrible. 
I was, you know, I was on the 

941
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,440
toilet, you know, for half the 
day cramping up and, and, you 

942
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:01,080
know, just watery as I'll get 
out and, and yeah, but once they

943
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,320
figured that out once, once they
got that out of their system, 

944
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,320
they were totally fine with it 
then then they'd still look 

945
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,040
forward to their carb days. 
But it was, you know, I'm going 

946
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:09,680
to go have some sushi, you know,
type of thing. 

947
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,960
It wasn't anything crazy. 
So they learned. 

948
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,120
I still, I still, there's still 
some clients that that I that I 

949
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,560
was working with back then. 
I don't do it anymore. 

950
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,520
I'm still in contact with a 
couple of them and they still 

951
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,600
follow the same program. 
They're still doing a cyclical 

952
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,320
approach and they love it. 
Yeah. 

953
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,560
And if they're killing it, you 
know, more power to them. 

954
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,320
Like, I don't ever want to 
discredit some other's success. 

955
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:34,000
I mean, for me, I feel like a 
lot of people, like the food is 

956
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,160
so psych psychological, you 
know, like, especially in this 

957
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,440
species, like other species, 
that there's no question as to 

958
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,360
what they eat. 
They, they eat well, they're 

959
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,480
supposed to, and they eat the 
right amount and they're able to

960
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:43,960
maintain a degree of 
homeostasis. 

961
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,880
Human, humans are a whole 
different beast. 

962
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,120
I mean, there's so much 
psychology, societal pressures, 

963
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,200
all this stuff. 
So being able to get things out 

964
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,800
of your system is key, which is 
why I'm such a big advocate for 

965
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,320
having defined building phases 
and defined cutting phase. 

966
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,680
Because most people are just in 
this chronic state of, hey, I 

967
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,160
need to lose 20 lbs for XY or Z 
reason. 

968
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,520
But they are just constantly, 
you know, short circuiting their

969
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,480
progress and never really 
reaching the goal because 

970
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,440
they're restricting in a way, in
some form or fashion. 

971
00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:16,880
Then they feel this craving, 
they they give into it and they 

972
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,840
have this sense of guilt that's 
associated with that lack of 

973
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,480
willpower. 
And they just, the whole cycle 

974
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,120
repeats itself. 
So like having a defined 

975
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,880
building phase where the goal is
to build muscle and embrace the 

976
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,000
fat game that comes with it, 
coupled with, you know, a period

977
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,720
of defined fat loss where that 
is the focus, it makes those 

978
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:35,840
periods much more manageable and
sustainable. 

979
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,080
And so few people do that, and 
bodybuilders do then. 

980
00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:41,040
But most people don't think of 
themselves as bodybuilders. 

981
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,480
But if people performed as 
bodybuilders, they would reach 

982
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,040
the goal much more effectively, 
much more efficiently, and then 

983
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:48,440
they just wouldn't have to step 
on stage. 

984
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:50,840
But they'll be able to reach 
that goal and actually get 

985
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,920
there. 
Yeah, no, I 100% agree with you.

986
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,520
You work with mostly 
bodybuilders or just everyday 

987
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:00,800
average joes? 
Both. 

988
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,840
I mean, I work with people that 
are on stage and people that 

989
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,200
just simply want to live a 
healthier life and improve their

990
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,520
composition. 
So the ones that are that want 

991
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,720
to live a healthy healthier 
life, are they are they OK with 

992
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:13,120
the the bulking up phase and the
cutting phase? 

993
00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:15,840
Yeah, I mean, they like, I just 
have to explain it to them. 

994
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,880
Like a lot of people, like a lot
of my clients are, you know, 

995
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,880
middle-aged women that are just 
chronically under eating. 

996
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,960
They don't have any concept of 
reverse dieting. 

997
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,760
Their metabolism is totally down
regulated. 

998
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:25,880
Their hormones are all jacked 
up. 

999
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:27,760
So be able to have a 
conversation with them around 

1000
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,080
what a reverse diet is, what 
benefits come from eating at a 

1001
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,040
defined surplus? 
Like once you break that down 

1002
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,880
form their, their eyes are open 
and they get it, but you know, 

1003
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,320
they're not really hearing that 
in mainstream dieting culture. 

1004
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:42,360
Sure. 
Yeah. 

1005
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,200
You know, a a lot of a lot of 
the smart guys too, you know, 

1006
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:50,080
like I, I follow. 
Like, do you know who Doctor 

1007
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:51,840
Mike Izvortel? 
Is, yeah, yeah. 

1008
00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:54,360
Yeah. 
So he, he's, he's a big 

1009
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,560
proponent of that too. 
You know, before you start a 

1010
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:01,080
diet, you know, he wants you to 
essentially, you know, figure 

1011
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,600
out what, what, what is your, 
what is, what are your 

1012
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,640
maintenance calories now, you 
know, so eat for a few weeks the

1013
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,720
way you normally been eating 
before you even start this new 

1014
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:12,560
program and figure out where 
you're at, because you need to 

1015
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:13,840
know where you're at, right? 
Totally. 

1016
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,440
Because you're maybe you're 
chronically under eating, which 

1017
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,040
means your metabolism is going 
to be, is going to be 

1018
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,360
ridiculously low, which means 
you need to go on a bulking 

1019
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,080
phase to, to kind of sort your 
hormones back out again, like 

1020
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,840
you were saying. 
But but most people, I think 

1021
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,480
when they read that, when they 
see that it's like, you want me 

1022
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,720
to do what? 
No, no, no, I want to lose 

1023
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:32,120
weight. 
I don't want to, I don't want to

1024
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,160
gain weight. 
They they're like, yeah, I'm not

1025
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,440
doing it, you know, because 
they're, they're terrified of 

1026
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,200
that because they want to lose 
weight, even though they've been

1027
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,320
in a chronic deficit for the 
last 10 years. 

1028
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,840
It's a tough sell, man. 
Like when somebody comes to me, 

1029
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,080
like just using a, a, you know, 
an example, like if I forget a, 

1030
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:49,960
a middle-aged woman that's 
coming to me that's wanting to 

1031
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,440
lose 2030 lbs and she's already 
eaten 1200 calories a day on 

1032
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:54,840
average. 
And I'm telling her, hey, look, 

1033
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,400
you've got to eat at a surplus 
for at least six months and 

1034
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,680
embrace somebody fat gain and 
just. 

1035
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:02,680
Some. 
Weight, yeah, like it's, it's a 

1036
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,720
very hard sell and nobody wants 
to work with me. 

1037
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,720
But like, The thing is, 
everything that they've done up 

1038
00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:11,680
to that point hasn't worked. 
So just trust me and do this and

1039
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,760
I guarantee we'll get you there.
Right. 

1040
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:18,200
Yeah, it's, it's just that that 
looming, you know, I got to do 

1041
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,720
this for six months or whatever 
long before I can actually get 

1042
00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:23,600
into the program that's going to
get me to lose weight and I'm 

1043
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:25,640
going to gain maybe maybe 10 
lbs. 

1044
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,720
You know, that's, that's, that's
hard for someone to, to digest 

1045
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:32,080
that right? 
I mean, it's true, right, 

1046
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:33,720
Because you need to fix the 
problem 1st. 

1047
00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:36,400
And the problem is, you know, 
probably hormones because you've

1048
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,040
been chronically under eating 
or, or just eating such horrible

1049
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,400
food that had no, you know, 
nutrient density to it that that

1050
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,240
it didn't provide your body with
anything that it actually 

1051
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:47,840
needed. 
What what's your take on all 

1052
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,200
these vegetables like? 
That's a big topic of discussion

1053
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,200
right now and some people in 
the, you know, evidence based 

1054
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,960
communities are like, man, 
vegetables are totally fine, no 

1055
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:57,520
worries. 
Like it's all about the calories

1056
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,280
you get people in the carnivore,
keto, low carb space that are 

1057
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,040
like vegetables are the reason 
we have an obesity epidemic. 

1058
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:04,240
You have a stance on it one way 
or the? 

1059
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:13,040
Other so you know, there's, 
there's certainly anti nutrients

1060
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,920
in vegetables, right? 
You know what happens when you 

1061
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,160
eat lots of foods that have anti
nutrients? 

1062
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,360
They chelate with, with minerals
and they, they, they pull things

1063
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,040
out of your body. 
You don't, you don't simulate, 

1064
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,160
you know, what you're trying to 
consume because, because your 

1065
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,600
body's not letting it because of
the chelation of the minerals. 

1066
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,640
So I, I, I'm kind of in the 
middle. 

1067
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:37,840
I don't think vegetables are a 
problem. 

1068
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,200
I think if you're eating 
vegetables, you definitely need 

1069
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,240
to cook your vegetables, you 
know, because you know, proper 

1070
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:47,440
cooking is going to denature a 
lot of these anti nutrients, you

1071
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,600
know, phytates, oxalates, all 
these anti nutrients that that 

1072
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,800
are in these vegetables. 
But and even and even if it if 

1073
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,280
if you don't are unable to 
absorb, I think what happens 

1074
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,480
usually is you're you're never 
able to completely eliminate, 

1075
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,760
you know, a lot of these anti 
nutrients. 

1076
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:09,280
I think you neutralize a lot of 
them by, by up to 70%, which I 

1077
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,960
think is fine. 
I think there's ways of getting 

1078
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,120
around that by, by, you know, 
fermenting foods and things like

1079
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:16,680
that. 
That's, that's what most of 

1080
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,440
these, you know, hunter gatherer
type of societies would do when 

1081
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:21,960
they would eat these types of 
foods, they would, they would 

1082
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,960
ferment them and that provides a
lot of benefit as well. 

1083
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,480
I, I don't think, you know, 
you're talking about, you know, 

1084
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,000
vegetables being part of the 
obesity epidemic. 

1085
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,520
I don't think that. 
What's that? 

1086
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:38,440
Vegetable oils more so than 
vegetables. 

1087
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,920
Oh, vegetable oils, yeah, 
definitely vegetable. 

1088
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,240
So I I have mixed takes on 
vegetable oils. 

1089
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,960
If if you look at if you look at
all the the randomized control, 

1090
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,640
not all of them a lot of them 
and all the mental analysis on 

1091
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,880
on vegetable oils on sea oils on
little lake acid they they seem 

1092
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,040
to be healthy for you. 
OK. 

1093
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:04,640
So based on what we see in as 
far as these trials go, so I 

1094
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,720
don't know exactly how to take 
that because you're talking 

1095
00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:12,480
about consuming something that 
that, you know, we never would 

1096
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:16,640
have done, you know, when when 
we were primitive people, you 

1097
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,760
know, we didn't have the 
technology to to extract, you 

1098
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,640
know, heat extract these these 
oils from these seeds. 

1099
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,640
We didn't have, you know, hexane
gas and different things that 

1100
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,480
they use than bleaches and, and 
all kinds of stuff that they use

1101
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,040
to, to process these, these seed
oils. 

1102
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:36,400
And I think, I think the problem
is that we have too much Omega 

1103
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,720
6IN our diet and not enough 
omega-3. 

1104
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:44,360
So I think it's a balance issue.
I think by eating, you know, 

1105
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:49,760
like factory farmed, you know, 
beef and and you know, chickens 

1106
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,800
and stuff like that, you're 
going to get more Omega 6:00 

1107
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,120
because of how they feed these 
animals or they're in feed lots 

1108
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,200
and they're eating lots of corn,
different things like that. 

1109
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,600
So they're not getting their 
their species specific diet like

1110
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,480
you were talking about earlier. 
They're they're they're eating 

1111
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:08,760
foods to fatten them up. 
So I, I think that that seed 

1112
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:12,120
oils, I don't really know what 
to think of seed oils anymore. 

1113
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:13,600
I've, I've heard so many 
different things. 

1114
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,680
I don't particularly consume 
them myself. 

1115
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,400
If I'm, if I'm consuming any 
oils like that, it's like, you 

1116
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:24,040
know, olive oil or, or avocado 
oil or macadamia nut oil. 

1117
00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:26,280
Those are all, you know, those 
aren't heat extracted, right? 

1118
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,440
So, so I try to avoid all the 
heat extracted ones. 

1119
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,680
But but there's, there's studies
that shows that they're heart 

1120
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,800
protective and, you know, 
because they lower LDL 

1121
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,880
cholesterol, which, you know, 
depending on where you are in 

1122
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,560
that camp. 
Are you, do you think that 

1123
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,120
that's important? 
They all there's also studies 

1124
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,600
that show that they oxidize much
easier and they get into your 

1125
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:47,800
cells and they stay there 
longer. 

1126
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,240
So your cells aren't supposed to
contain Omega 6 fatty acid. 

1127
00:56:52,240 --> 00:56:55,920
They're supposed to contain 
saturated and monounsaturated, 

1128
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,920
not Omega 6. 
So I think that the the jury's 

1129
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:02,160
still kind of out on on seed 
oils. 

1130
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,440
I don't know that they're the, 
you know, this demon food that 

1131
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,160
people are, are making them out 
to be. 

1132
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,440
I, I avoid them again, just, you
know, saying that I do avoid 

1133
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,160
them. 
But but I don't know. 

1134
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,080
I think that any time you're 
going to, you know, heat up an 

1135
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,600
oil, you know, you're, you're 
going to denature the fat. 

1136
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,520
So these, you know, a lot of 
these oils are, are 

1137
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:25,720
polyunsaturated. 
So they have many bonds. 

1138
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,080
Those bonds are are, you know, 
they're, they're prone to to 

1139
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:33,080
damage and, and when you damage 
the fat is when you have the 

1140
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,560
problem. 
So yeah, it's, it's, it's funny 

1141
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,960
because because most of the 
studies actually show it being 

1142
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,720
healthy. 
Matter of fact, I just listened 

1143
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,000
to something the other day and 
on doctor Mike Israel was 

1144
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,400
talking about this as well. 
He, he said that they're 100% 

1145
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:49,800
healthy for you and that you 
should include them in your 

1146
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,080
diet. 
So it's, it's, I think it's, 

1147
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,040
it's one of those things again, 
where we have two camps, right? 

1148
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,200
And, and you've got the pro 
people and then the people that 

1149
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,400
are against it. 
And, and they're, a lot of times

1150
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,120
they talk about mechanistic 
studies, which I don't think is 

1151
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:09,920
a good idea because, you know, 
you're, it doesn't really tell 

1152
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,440
us much about what's happening 
when you consume the oil. 

1153
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,800
It's just telling us 
mechanistically what could 

1154
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,920
potentially happen based on, you
know, different aspects of, of, 

1155
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,440
of what's going on. 
So how, how it affects, you 

1156
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,720
know, cells. 
And, and so they're, they're 

1157
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,040
taking everything out of context
and they're saying because it 

1158
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,600
does this, because we found this
to happen, you know, with this 

1159
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,000
particular polymorphism, 
therefore, if you consume this 

1160
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:34,520
seed oil, this is going to 
happen to you. 

1161
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,320
So it's, again, I think it's, I 
think it's really complicated. 

1162
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,040
But if you're looking at the 
science, you know, the, the 

1163
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,480
science says seed oils are 
pretty healthy unless, unless 

1164
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,560
you're looking at 2 trials, 
which have flaws. 

1165
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:51,120
So there's two trials that they 
did. 

1166
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:55,240
One was the Sydney Heart study 
and the other one was a 

1167
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:59,520
Minnesota coronary experiment. 
And those two studies looked at 

1168
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:04,240
substituting polyunsaturated 
fatty acids. 

1169
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,320
I don't remember what kind they 
use. 

1170
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,840
It might have been Western oil 
and then saturated fats. 

1171
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:14,640
OK, so these were done, I, I 
believe they were done in, in 

1172
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:16,840
institutions. 
So they were, they were double 

1173
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,960
blinded studies. 
I think they were really good 

1174
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:21,720
studies, but there, I know there
were a few flaws. 

1175
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:23,920
I remember people talking about 
a few flaws that they had with 

1176
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:25,520
these studies. 
I mean, all studies have flaws, 

1177
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,000
right? 
But what they found was that the

1178
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,200
the the people that were 
consuming the high 

1179
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:36,920
polyunsaturated fat diets had 
had much lower cholesterol 

1180
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,600
levels and LDL levels than the 
saturated fat group. 

1181
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:42,840
I mean saturated fats where were
LDL levels. 

1182
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:48,200
But what they found out was that
the people consuming the the 

1183
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:52,560
polyunsaturated fats had more 
deaths and more coronary 

1184
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:57,120
incidents. 
So, you know, it's, and those 

1185
00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:58,680
were two pretty good studies 
that were done. 

1186
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,800
Those are the only two that I'm 
really aware of where, where 

1187
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:02,440
they were double blinded 
studies. 

1188
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:05,840
But again, there were some flaws
with the studies. 

1189
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,720
I don't remember exactly what 
they were, but as far as studies

1190
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:11,240
go, I think they were pretty 
good. 

1191
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:14,400
But then you have all the other 
ones. 

1192
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,240
Basically everything else shows 
the complete opposite. 

1193
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:21,120
So I, I don't know, I think 
again, I think the jury's still 

1194
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,000
out on that. 
I think I think we need to learn

1195
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:26,640
more about it. 
I I don't think they're as bad 

1196
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:31,360
as people say, but then again 
I'm not consuming them myself. 

1197
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:33,160
Yeah, I would agree with all 
that. 

1198
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:35,480
I'm I'm in the same boat. 
I don't consume them either. 

1199
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,920
I mean, the fact that they have 
to deodorize them so that people

1200
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,880
find them palatable to me is 
like a pretty big red flag. 

1201
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:43,960
Like if it was not deodorized, 
you wouldn't be able to get it 

1202
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,280
past your nose to consume it. 
Like I don't want to make a 

1203
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,120
habit of eating rancid fats. 
So yeah, I don't eat them 

1204
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:52,560
either, but yeah. 
And it's ranted as a start 

1205
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:53,880
right? 
Because you have to heat extract

1206
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:54,440
it. 
Right. 

1207
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:59,840
So it denatures the fat, so. 
And then most of it too is in a 

1208
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:01,640
plastic bottle. 
So what's that doing? 

1209
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:08,880
Yeah, and it's shelf forever. 
So again, I think there's the 

1210
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,520
science based evidence that we 
have and then there's like a lot

1211
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:13,880
of common sense involved here 
too. 

1212
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:15,080
Yeah, no for. 
Sure. 

1213
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:17,120
It's like, when would we have 
ever consumed that amount of 

1214
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,200
seed oils in our life? 
Yeah, precisely. 

1215
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,800
I try and gravitate to pretty 
common sensical approaches, like

1216
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:24,880
how's it made me feel? 
How's it made me perform? 

1217
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,360
Is it something we would find in
nature? 

1218
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,840
Have we eaten this for the past 
millennia? 

1219
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,640
Or is it relatively new in the 
advent of human dietary culture?

1220
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,160
And if it's if it's a bunch of, 
you know, this newfangled stuff 

1221
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,000
that just is not really food in 
my book, then I don't want to 

1222
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:40,320
see much benefit in consuming 
it. 

1223
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:45,600
Yeah, I, I try, I try to live my
life by a couple concepts. 1 is 

1224
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:49,040
KISS, which I'm sure you're 
familiar with, right? 

1225
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,320
Keep it simple, stupid. 
And the, and the other one is a,

1226
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,840
is a term called Occam's razor. 
Are you familiar with that? 

1227
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:57,400
Yep, Yep. 
Simplest solution is usually the

1228
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,480
right, the right answer, right. 
I mean, that's just, I think 

1229
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,240
evolutionarily and, and just 
most things usually work out 

1230
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:04,640
that way. 
Totally. 

1231
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:08,040
If you're telling me that for me
to be healthy, I need to extract

1232
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:10,280
all this oil from these seeds 
through all these chemical 

1233
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:14,800
processes and, and hexane gases 
and, and deodorizers and, and 

1234
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,040
somehow that's healthier for me 
because a study shows that it 

1235
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:18,840
is. 
I don't know man. 

1236
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:20,440
Yeah, yeah. 
No, I totally. 

1237
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:22,440
Or with that. 
I'm on the same page. 

1238
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:24,160
Well, I know we're already an 
hour in. 

1239
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:25,240
We can probably talk forever 
man. 

1240
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,200
But I want to get a quick take 
on you or from you regards to 

1241
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,040
training because I'm like you 
said, you're 56 years old. 

1242
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,240
You look phenomenal. 
So what's your philosophy 

1243
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:40,120
towards training? 
I, I right now, I train every 

1244
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,080
other day. 
I work out with my son. 

1245
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,880
He he started working out with 
me during COVID. 

1246
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:47,680
It's been. 
It's been by the. 

1247
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,320
Way I'm super excited for my kid
to want to. 

1248
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,000
Yeah, so. 
Kudos to you there. 

1249
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,760
Thank you. 
So my my son just turned 14 and 

1250
01:02:55,760 --> 01:03:00,120
he just bench pressed 175. 
Nice. 

1251
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:02,800
Pretty easy too. 
It went up. 

1252
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,720
He could have got two, I'm sure.
And that's freeway. 

1253
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,880
That wasn't like on a machine. 
And he dead lifted the other 

1254
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,280
day. 
Gosh, this was this was a couple

1255
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:16,240
months ago, 2250. 
I think it was from an Olympic 

1256
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:18,680
bar, not from like a like a trap
bar or anything like that. 

1257
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:22,040
So he's he's a beast man. 
He's he, he's quite the beast. 

1258
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:25,960
But yeah, definitely when, when 
your son gets gets of age, it's 

1259
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,920
a lot of fun. 
But yeah, so my philosophy on 

1260
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:35,800
training, you know, I, I, I tore
my, I detached my tricep tendon 

1261
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:42,200
in 2012, I think it was, I was 
getting ready for a show and and

1262
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,680
I, it popped off doing dumbbell 
presses. 

1263
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,840
Ever since then, my, my arm has 
never been the same. 

1264
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,560
I, I've got some nerve damage. 
It's, it's hard for me to to go 

1265
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:56,640
heavy free weights anymore. 
I still, I still do, but but 

1266
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:58,480
everyone's in a while, not every
once in a while, quite quite 

1267
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,320
frequently my arm just kind of 
gives out. 

1268
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:06,680
So I guess my old philosophy was
I used to like to. 

1269
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:11,360
I was a big believer in in going
heavy number one and also trying

1270
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:12,800
to facilitate a really good 
pump. 

1271
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:18,280
So kind of similar to Hanny's 
philosophy. 

1272
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:20,440
What does What does he have the 
FFS? 

1273
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:22,840
What's the C7? 
Yeah, exactly. 

1274
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:27,360
Very, very similar to that, you 
know, pick an exercise to to go 

1275
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:30,240
super heavy on and and then just
pumping as much blood in there 

1276
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:33,240
as you can. 
I believe in a lot of rest. 

1277
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,160
I made my best gains when I 
trained every other day. 

1278
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:40,280
I've trained every day, I've 
trained five days a week, I've 

1279
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:44,160
trained six days a week and I 
find that if I train the other 

1280
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:48,080
every other day, I seem to have 
the, the best recovery and I 

1281
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,160
feel like I'm, I'm ready to, to 
tear it up again the next day. 

1282
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:55,120
I split it up where I'm training
11 muscle group per week. 

1283
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,320
I've kind of always done that. 
I, I tried doing, I tried doing 

1284
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,840
2 muscle groups a week and I 
just wasn't able to do it. 

1285
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:07,480
I, I trained probably further to
failure than I should. 

1286
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,120
You know, I was the guy back in 
the day when we were training 

1287
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:15,840
legs where most people, most of 
my training partners skipped leg

1288
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:17,760
day. 
They, they just did not want to 

1289
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:21,120
train legs because they always 
ended up in the bathroom puking 

1290
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,720
because we, we, we destroyed 
legs. 

1291
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:31,000
I mean, it was, it was brutal. 
So lots of back then it was lots

1292
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:37,440
of heavyweights repetitions 
anywhere from 6:00 to 12:00, 

1293
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:39,840
usually. 
Occasionally we'd go high 20s if

1294
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:42,520
we're doing, you know, a lot of 
volume work. 

1295
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:45,680
But now I don't typically do a 
lot of that. 

1296
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,760
My, my Rep range is anywhere 
between 6 and 15 on pretty much 

1297
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,480
everything. 
I'm training in my basement. 

1298
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:54,880
I've got a, I've got a pretty 
decent stuff in my basement. 

1299
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:58,440
I kind of, I kind of hooked it 
all up when I, when COVID hit, I

1300
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:00,080
sold my gym many, many years 
ago. 

1301
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,040
I have a lifetime membership 
there, but it's, it's, it's, 

1302
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:06,280
it's in a town away. 
And I just, once I sold it, I 

1303
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,240
didn't really want to be 
affiliated with it anymore. 

1304
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:10,320
I didn't want to be the face 
everybody knew. 

1305
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,880
I kind of wanted the new owners 
just to kind of, you know, just 

1306
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:15,520
have their own time to do their 
own thing. 

1307
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:17,200
And I didn't want to be, just 
didn't want to be there. 

1308
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:18,520
Just, I felt like I was in the 
way. 

1309
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,920
So I joined Planet Fitness for a
while after that, which I hated.

1310
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:25,440
And then COVID hit my wife's 
like, you know, got to cancel 

1311
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:27,280
your membership because we all 
thought we were going to die, 

1312
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:29,240
which obviously that didn't 
happen. 

1313
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:33,040
And I said, OK, that's fine. 
I said, but I'm gonna have to 

1314
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:35,920
build something in the basement 
here, so let me buy some stuff 

1315
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:37,920
if you're cool with that. 
I'll definitely train here. 

1316
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:39,800
And she's like, yeah, get what 
you need, what you need. 

1317
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:43,520
So I got a nice little set up 
here so I don't have. 

1318
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:47,640
I used to do a lot of, a lot of 
strip sets and drop sets and, 

1319
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:50,160
and super setting on various 
machines. 

1320
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,760
You know, when I was at the 
gyms, I don't do that anymore. 

1321
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:54,520
I, I still do a lot of drop 
sets. 

1322
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,760
I'm a big believer in drop sets.
Usually the last set of my 

1323
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,840
exercise for whatever I'm doing.
If I'm doing bench press, I'll 

1324
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,960
kind of pyramid my weights up 
and then my last set will be 

1325
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:08,080
like a, like a, like a drop set 
where maybe I'm getting, you 

1326
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:12,400
know, 6 repetitions on my first 
set, followed by another six 

1327
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:14,880
after I've dropped weight, 
followed by another four, maybe 

1328
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:17,520
followed by maybe another two. 
And then maybe do some negatives

1329
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:21,160
on top of that. 
So I like pushing my last set of

1330
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:25,560
my exercise to, you know, 
exhaustion, you know, beyond 

1331
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,080
failure really. 
But most of my other stuff I 

1332
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:32,520
just take to about failure. 
I probably have a couple more 

1333
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,360
reps in me, but I'm trying, I'm 
trying to go heavy, you know, 

1334
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:40,240
the, the, the, what am I trying 
to say? 

1335
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:42,920
My form's good. 
I'm not, I'm not throwing a lot 

1336
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:44,520
of, you know, heavy sloppy 
weights around. 

1337
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:46,800
I'm not doing that. 
So once once my form starts to 

1338
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:49,840
compromise a little bit, then I 
usually stop. 

1339
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,920
But granted that I've got, you 
know, good blood in my muscles. 

1340
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:57,840
So I try again. 
I try to go heavy and I try to 

1341
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,840
incorporate some type of a, you 
know, pumping mechanism in there

1342
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:02,800
as well to get as much blood in 
there as possible. 

1343
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:04,600
Stretch the fascia out as much 
as I can. 

1344
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:11,720
I don't do, I'd say I'd probably
stay anywhere from if I'm 

1345
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:17,960
training legs, if I'm training a
large muscle group, probably 

1346
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:27,800
anywhere from 10:00 to 16 total 
sets, usually three sets per 

1347
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:32,080
exercise. 
And you know, 4, four to three 

1348
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:34,560
to four exercises depending on 
what I'm doing. 

1349
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:40,399
But yeah, I, I, you know, again,
I focus, focus is going heavy 

1350
01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:44,359
on, on the 1st exercise usually 
followed by staying heavy, but 

1351
01:08:44,359 --> 01:08:47,600
going for more of a pump and 
then followed by a lot of blood 

1352
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:51,760
volume in the my last, my last 
movement of that particular 

1353
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:53,720
exercise. 
You ever play around with like 

1354
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,399
the occlusion training and 
whatnot to focus on the blood? 

1355
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:57,800
Flow. 
You know what I never have. 

1356
01:08:57,840 --> 01:08:58,960
I've never played around with 
that. 

1357
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:00,680
I've I've I've read a little bit
about it. 

1358
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:04,240
I don't know a ton about it. 
I've seen it obviously but but 

1359
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:06,359
I've never tried it. 
I've done it a few times. 

1360
01:09:06,359 --> 01:09:08,760
It, I mean, from a pump 
standpoint, it's pretty hard to 

1361
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:10,760
to beat. 
I mean, you get a sick pump for 

1362
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:11,720
sure. 
It feels like your arms are 

1363
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,520
about to explode, but I don't. 
Really incorporate that much, Is

1364
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:17,279
that because the bloods just 
kind of staying there, you kind 

1365
01:09:17,279 --> 01:09:19,240
of forcing it there? 
Yeah, you're basically it's, 

1366
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:22,240
it's tourniquet's a bad example 
because it's not I mean a 

1367
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:23,840
tourniquet is totally different 
intent. 

1368
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,640
But like you're basically 
forcing as much blood in, but no

1369
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,640
blood, not no blood, but less 
blood leaving. 

1370
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:35,240
So you've just got this engorged
sensation in the actual muscular

1371
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:37,840
tissue. 
So the pump is is great. 

1372
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,479
You don't need to go as heavy. 
So if I'm like AI think it'd be 

1373
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,279
really good from like a recovery
standpoint, like if you wanted 

1374
01:09:44,279 --> 01:09:48,080
to stimulate the muscle as much 
as possible without having to go

1375
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:50,680
near as heavy on the load, you 
would be able to effectively do 

1376
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,040
that with the BFR training. 
But I don't really do it on a 

1377
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:57,360
regular basis like last time I 
did it was probably 3 years ago 

1378
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,600
if that tells me anything. 
And I don't do it very often, 

1379
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,800
but the times I have it's like 
you get a pretty sick pump. 

1380
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:05,400
Sure. 
Yeah, it was pretty popular for 

1381
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:06,680
a while. 
Yeah, it was. 

1382
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:07,920
It was. 
And a lot of people, they make 

1383
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:11,120
it a staple. 
I just love training and I don't

1384
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:13,520
like having too many gadgets. 
I got to go in there and train 

1385
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:15,800
relatively instinctively, so I 
don't do it. 

1386
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:17,760
Typically, yeah, I love, I love 
your gym, by the way. 

1387
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:19,480
Where is that? 
Just like in a pole barn. 

1388
01:10:19,480 --> 01:10:21,000
Or where is that? 
Yes, that's, that's the 

1389
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:23,640
warehouse here where we where we
do the keto brick production. 

1390
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:26,720
I've got my podcast studio here,
my office spaces, my gym. 

1391
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:29,200
So all of that's under one roof,
which is awesome. 

1392
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:32,160
We call it the compound. 
How how many square feet is your

1393
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:35,120
gym? 
The gym, I think the gym is like

1394
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:38,080
30 by 100 or something like that
and I need to get some more 

1395
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:40,920
equipment for it because it's 
pretty open there right now. 

1396
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:44,480
I need to, I just ordered, I'm 
going to order a belt squat. 

1397
01:10:44,480 --> 01:10:46,640
I got a safety bar squat I'm 
going to start playing around 

1398
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:48,600
with, but there's a couple of 
pieces that I want to get. 

1399
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:50,320
What what is your? 
I was actually going to ask you 

1400
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:53,480
as my next question, but like as
far as your setup goes, what is 

1401
01:10:53,480 --> 01:10:55,480
your piece that you couldn't do 
without? 

1402
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:01,720
Probably. 
So probably my rack, my power 

1403
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:03,880
rack. 
I, I've got, I've got 

1404
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,480
attachments on it so I can do 
all kinds of stuff on it. 

1405
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:09,400
So it's, it's like, it's like 
that one piece that gives me 

1406
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,520
like, like I can do like 9 
different exercises on it with 

1407
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:15,520
all my attachments. 
So I've got like those, those 

1408
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,640
leverage arms on there. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1409
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:19,680
So I don't, I don't have a large
space. 

1410
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,560
It's in my basement and half of 
our basement is, is, is finished

1411
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:24,640
and the other half is, you know,
it's laundry storage and then my

1412
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,440
gym. 
And so and so I needed something

1413
01:11:27,440 --> 01:11:31,240
that was going to be, you know, 
space, you know, appropriate. 

1414
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:34,760
And I thought, well, shoot, man,
that's because I was thinking 

1415
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:36,640
about all the things I wanted, 
like, I gotta have this, gotta 

1416
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:37,920
have this, gotta have this, 
gotta have this. 

1417
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:39,000
I'm like, I don't have the room 
for it. 

1418
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:41,120
I'd have to venture into the 
other area. 

1419
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:43,280
And then I saw these leverage 
arms. 

1420
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:45,600
I'm like, well, shoot man, these
are awesome. 

1421
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,000
I can do like there's so many 
exercises I can do with leverage

1422
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:49,160
arms. 
It's like ridiculous. 

1423
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,000
It's like having 9 different 
plate load of pieces. 

1424
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:54,440
I'm gonna. 
Get that from my rack for sure. 

1425
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,480
What's that? 
I'm gonna get some of those from

1426
01:11:56,480 --> 01:11:58,080
my rack. 
I don't have those yet, but I've

1427
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:01,040
got the the rogue monster rack, 
whatever they call it. 

1428
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:03,520
So it has arms for it. 
I just haven't, you know, pulled

1429
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:05,840
the trigger on those yet. 
Aim changer, man, that that's 

1430
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:07,960
there's you can do. 
I mean, just use your 

1431
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:09,760
imagination. 
It's it's like endless. 

1432
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:11,600
Yeah, no. 
It's it's really cool. 

1433
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:14,760
And then I can lock them up too 
and then use them as a dipping 

1434
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:17,800
bars. 
Have you seen have you used the 

1435
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:20,640
what's the brand? 
I think it's the rogue Rhino 

1436
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:25,840
belt squat. 
I have so I have AI think I 

1437
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,080
might have the rhino belts, the 
the just the attachment, the the

1438
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:31,640
belt, the the the apparatus 
where you put the chain and the 

1439
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:35,160
and the the belt. 
Yeah, so they've got, well, 

1440
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:37,760
Rogue Rhino's got this one where
it like they've got one where 

1441
01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:41,040
it, it goes into your rack, like
it becomes part of your rack, 

1442
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:44,040
but from your setup. 
I'm going to do the same thing 

1443
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:45,040
with mine. 
But basically you can have a 

1444
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:48,080
pulley system up top on the 
inside of your rack too, where 

1445
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:51,040
you can do like weighted dips. 
With that you can do everything 

1446
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:53,880
you would. 
You can do so much with just the

1447
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:56,440
belt squad attachment set up 
within your rack. 

1448
01:12:57,160 --> 01:12:59,760
Yeah, weighted dips, you know, 
you've got full functioning 

1449
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:01,160
cable there, so you can do all 
kinds of stuff. 

1450
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:04,360
But that and those lever arms 
are going to be my next two 

1451
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:06,560
pieces for sure. 
Yeah, you'll, you'll love the 

1452
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:08,680
lever arms. 
They're they're they're so 

1453
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:10,040
versatile. 
It's unbelievable. 

1454
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:14,400
And what I did to mine was so on
my arms, my arms have, they have

1455
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:17,200
holes all the way on it. 
And I put these little eye hooks

1456
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:19,440
in there. 
And then I attach eye hooks to, 

1457
01:13:19,440 --> 01:13:22,360
to my, my, my rack. 
And then I have these towing 

1458
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:27,160
straps that are probably about 3
feet long with hooks on it. 

1459
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:31,360
So I can, I can lock it in place
anywhere I want it. 

1460
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,360
So they're not, and down. 
So I can, I can lock them at 

1461
01:13:34,360 --> 01:13:36,840
different, different levels, 
whether I'm doing, you know, 

1462
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:40,440
like incline press or decline 
press or flat bench press or 

1463
01:13:40,440 --> 01:13:42,960
shoulders, you know, or whatever
I want. 

1464
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:45,520
And that, that was just 
something that I kind of 

1465
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:47,960
engineered on top of them. 
I'm like, because otherwise for 

1466
01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:50,120
a lot of stuff you need like 
someone to help you like pull 

1467
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:52,920
the arms up like that. 
That's, that's not, I mean, 

1468
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:54,640
that's not going to work. 
You know, I'm not going to have 

1469
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:56,560
a spotter with me every single 
day and they're certainly not 

1470
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:57,920
going to want to pull my weight 
up every single day. 

1471
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:00,560
So I just, I attached all these,
all these eye hooks to it. 

1472
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:04,600
And then I got these straps that
hold like like 3000 lbs apiece. 

1473
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,760
And I just clip it where I want 
it so I can clip it in various 

1474
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:09,800
spots. 
Yeah, you're gonna have to send 

1475
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:11,120
me a picture of your, of your 
setup, man. 

1476
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,920
Like I'm a gym junkie. 
So like the the at home gym 

1477
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:15,920
setups, like I love that stuff. 
That's pretty much what I've 

1478
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:17,200
got. 
Like I've got a warehouse space,

1479
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:19,320
but it's all, you know, stuff 
that people have in their 

1480
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:20,480
basements as well. 
And I love it. 

1481
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:23,640
Yeah, You know, I, I, I miss my,
I miss my powerhouse gym. 

1482
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:25,720
I mean, I had, I had like 10,000
square feet. 

1483
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:29,360
I had everything, you know, 
that, that that place was just 

1484
01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:32,320
that place was so awesome. 
I loved training there until we 

1485
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,160
went, well, I used to train a 
lot after hours and we would 

1486
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:38,280
just crank up the, the, the 
music and just, and just crush 

1487
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:40,080
it. 
And then we went 24 hours. 

1488
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:41,920
And then of course, we didn't 
have that luxury anymore. 

1489
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:45,960
But but you know, you, you go 
from having everything because 

1490
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:50,360
literally I had everything to 
now having just a few pieces 

1491
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:54,040
that'll fit in my basement that,
that you know, but they do 

1492
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:55,960
everything that I need. 
It's like I don't need any. 

1493
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,520
The only thing I would like to 
get, because most of my leg work

1494
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:01,120
now is just squats. 
I do a lot of squatting, which 

1495
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:03,240
is actually a good thing because
before I used to do a lot of leg

1496
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,080
pressing. 
But I wish, I wish I had a leg 

1497
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:07,480
press. 
That's the only thing that I 

1498
01:15:07,480 --> 01:15:09,440
wish I had at at this moment in 
time. 

1499
01:15:09,440 --> 01:15:10,840
And I'm gonna, I'm gonna buy 
one, I think. 

1500
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:14,120
But but yeah, right now it's 
just can we do it Like when 

1501
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:17,160
we're doing legs, we do like 10 
sets of 10 with a one minute 

1502
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:19,680
interval rest. 
That's fun. 

1503
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:24,240
Yeah, those those freaking short
recipes like the FST seven that 

1504
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:27,360
Rambaugh does. 
He, I think it's like it's, I 

1505
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:32,320
think it's often times lighter 
weight at 12 reps with 32nd rest

1506
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:33,920
intervals. 
And I'm in the same boat, man. 

1507
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:36,400
I would do that and I would be 
puking at the end of my squat 

1508
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:38,400
routine. 
But like, you just feel so 

1509
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:40,960
accomplished afterwards. 
I I'm telling you, man, I lost 

1510
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:42,680
so many training partners when 
it was like, yeah, they, they 

1511
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:44,840
just either wouldn't show up or 
they just like stopped training 

1512
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:46,280
with me. 
I mean, there, there's some 

1513
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:48,000
crazy stories of some of our leg
days. 

1514
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,080
I mean, we used to just do some 
insane stuff. 

1515
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:53,400
And I love it. 
I love doing that, but like, you

1516
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:55,960
can't do that every time because
it's probably honestly not even 

1517
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:58,480
optimal. 
But psychologically, what you 

1518
01:15:58,480 --> 01:16:00,960
get from that is like, you just 
feel like you're a frequent 

1519
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:03,000
animal. 
Well, it's funny too, because, 

1520
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:06,280
you know, I, I, my legs were 
probably some of my best body 

1521
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:09,200
parts back in the day and, and 
had I not trained that much, 

1522
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:10,400
they probably would have been 
even better. 

1523
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:14,360
Exactly. 
No, I love it, man. 

1524
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:15,600
We got, we got a lot more in 
common. 

1525
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:17,200
We, we agree with a lot more 
than we disagree on. 

1526
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,880
So I, I'm glad we, we got this 
conversation booked. 

1527
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:21,400
We have to do another follow up 
one for sure. 

1528
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:24,400
Oh definitely man, this has been
a pleasure. 100% where? 

1529
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:25,760
Where do people go to find out 
more about you? 

1530
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:27,560
I know you're pretty active on 
Instagram. 

1531
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:29,680
I don't. 
I mean, I'm, I'm on there 

1532
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:31,440
occasionally, but yeah, 
Instagram. 

1533
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:36,360
I'm at CKD for life which 
ironically enough is cyclical 

1534
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:39,880
ketogenic diet for life which I 
thought about changing my 

1535
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:41,800
handle. 
I feel like you need to have a 

1536
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:45,600
bike handle bike related because
you get more content on biking. 

1537
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:50,040
And cycling, you know, lately 
that's pretty much all I've been

1538
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:52,680
posting is biking stuff. 
That's, that's kind of, that's 

1539
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:54,920
kind of my new found passion is 
biking. 

1540
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:58,240
I, I, I love, I love training. 
I, I love bodybuilding. 

1541
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:01,720
I'll, I'll never compete again. 
You know, I still follow it, I 

1542
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:03,200
still love it. 
It's still, it's still a big 

1543
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:05,200
part of my life. 
I love training and I still 

1544
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:07,120
train like a bodybuilder and I 
think I still eat like a 

1545
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,640
bodybuilder. 
But my, my passion is really is 

1546
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:11,640
really mountain bike. 
That's that's the thing. 

1547
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:13,400
I mean, if you were asking 
what's my favorite thing to do, 

1548
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:17,000
it'd be throw me on a bike, man.
Take me to a bike park and I'm 

1549
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:19,040
I'm in heaven. 
So you you recommended? 

1550
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:20,160
A. 
Few bikes to me. 

1551
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:22,160
I know we were DM in a while 
back and you were recommending a

1552
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:23,360
few bikes. 
I haven't pulled a trick on that

1553
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:25,400
yet either, but I'm absolutely 
going to get into that because I

1554
01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:28,080
think that's something that my 
my kids and I can do together. 

1555
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:30,400
So yeah, I'm I'm going to have 
to pick your brain more on the 

1556
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:34,160
bike side of things. 
Yeah, if, if, if you, I mean my,

1557
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:37,080
my whole thing, you know, being 
a dad is, is trying to do as 

1558
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:39,760
much as I can with my son. 
I'm, I'm just, I just have one 

1559
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:43,200
son and the more time I can 
spend with him, you know, the 

1560
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,920
better my life is. 
Yeah, kids are a game changer. 

1561
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:50,840
Enjoy every waking moment you 
have with them. 

1562
01:17:51,440 --> 01:17:54,320
They're just incredible. 
So yeah, when he started working

1563
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:57,480
out with me, that was awesome. 
And we do a lot of biking. 

1564
01:17:57,480 --> 01:17:58,680
We're getting ready to do 
snowboarding. 

1565
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:02,520
He's a big snowboarder too. 
So him and I do a lot of, a lot 

1566
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:04,920
of bonding, you know, with, you 
know, things like that. 

1567
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:09,160
So I, I highly encourage to you 
to get involved with us as much 

1568
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:10,520
as you can. 
And plus you'll love biking too.

1569
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:12,880
But just just being able to 
spend that time with your son 

1570
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:17,920
is, is, is awesome. 
Do you do you know the sex of 

1571
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:19,920
your other child? 
No, not yet. 

1572
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:23,360
We'll know at the 20 week mark. 
So we got a few more weeks to go

1573
01:18:23,360 --> 01:18:25,560
until we hit that. 
But yeah, I'm definitely curious

1574
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:27,600
to find that out. 
But yeah, biking, I mean, I'm in

1575
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:29,640
Northwest Arkansas, man. 
It's like I think there was some

1576
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:31,840
popular biking magazine in 
Northwest. 

1577
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:33,840
Arkansas. 
One of the top five spots in 

1578
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:34,160
the. 
Country. 

1579
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:36,360
Oh God, yes. 
You you need to get out to 

1580
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:39,560
Bentley, I think. 
No. 

1581
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:40,800
Bentonville. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1582
01:18:41,480 --> 01:18:42,760
Bentonville's right out there in
Arkansas. 

1583
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,880
That's oh man, that, that that's
like, that's like heaven. 

1584
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:47,520
That's like 20 minutes. 
I've never been there, but I 

1585
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:51,240
want to go there so bad. 
But yes, definitely if you're, 

1586
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:54,000
if you're out in that area, you 
you've got to get yourself a, a 

1587
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:55,720
nice bike. 
Well, that's like I said, that's

1588
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:57,200
20 minutes from man. 
I mean, you want to come out 

1589
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,720
here, go biking up here, and 
then swing by and we'll get a 

1590
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:01,560
lift in. 
That'd be awesome. 

1591
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:02,800
Let's do it, man. 
Let's do. 

1592
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:03,600
It for sure. 
That's fabulous. 

1593
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:07,760
Ohio, you said, right? 
No, no, that's that's Ohio is 

1594
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:09,920
where I was when I had my MI. 
I'm in Michigan. 

1595
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:12,000
OK, OK, OK, gotcha. 
Yeah. 

1596
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:15,840
So I think Arkansas probably, 
what, 17 hours away from me? 

1597
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,600
Yeah, probably something like 
that if you're in Michigan, but 

1598
01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:19,720
you gotta just make a. 
Trip that would. 

1599
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:21,280
That would be fabulous though, 
for sure. 

1600
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:22,240
Man. 
I would definitely pick up on 

1601
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:23,720
that. 
Well, we got an open door for 

1602
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:24,680
you when you're in the area, 
brother. 

1603
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:27,560
I appreciate it, Robert. 
Mark, much obliged, man. 

1604
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:29,280
Keep killing it. 
Keep the conversation going on 

1605
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:31,720
Instagram, Always happy to hear 
from you, whatever thoughts you 

1606
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:33,520
got. 
I love the discourse. 

1607
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:35,920
It's always respectful, it's 
always insightful. 

1608
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:38,480
So keep doing it man, and we'll 
be in touch, brother. 

1609
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:41,000
I appreciate your time, Robert. 
Take care man Bye bye. 

1610
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:41,800
All right, take care, buddy. 
Bye.