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Good morning. 
Good morning, everyone. 

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GMGM, welcome to another episode
of Homo Power Today. 

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Today is Thursday, April 3rd. 
And it is. 

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It's a. 
Sunny morning here in Chicago. 

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It's actually looking absolutely
beautiful outside as long as you

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haven't looked at any charts, 
which are in fact, the opposite 

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of beautiful. 
As Trump's tariff tsunami has 

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wrecked havoc across global 
market. 

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Stocks are down, crypto's down, 
the dollar is down. 

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Now the question is just how bad
is it and what happens next? 

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We're going to break that down 
and all the news on today's 

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show. 
No, for OAK today, but we've got

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Mando, we've got Logan. 
GM guys, Mando, how you doing? 

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GM What a day, What a day. 
Yeah, let's get into it in a 

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bit. 
But yeah, I'm doing good as 

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always. 
Lot to lot to unpack. 

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Curious for your reaction across
the pond. 

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And then Logan live from Latin 
America. 

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He's he's bringing some some new
perspective there from us for us

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as well. 
Logan GM, How you doing? 

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Hey, good morning, Tyler. 
Beautiful day here again this 

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morning in Peru on the West 
Coast of Peru. 

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I actually saw a a noun sticker 
on my walk here this morning. 

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Wow, which was very surprising 
to me. 

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But yeah, things are things are 
going well here, aside from the 

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markets, of course. 
Where are you in Peru? 

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You're near Lima, or are you? 
I'm in Trujillo which is the 

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third largest city. 
It's like an hour, hour N flight

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from Northwest from Lima. 
I believe how will they do the 

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sand the sand surfing stuff? 
I don't know. 

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There's surfing around here, but
I don't know about sand surfing.

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I don't know. 
Very many years ago. 

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Many, many years ago. 
Nice. 

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I have. 
I have not been. 

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A different, different life. 
I was 18 years old when I went. 

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Oh wow, Yeah. 
I've been to Brazil, I have not 

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been to I've been to Uruguay, 
but not I have not been to the 

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West Coast. 
So Logie, you'll have to give us

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the the full recap once you're 
deeper into the journey. 

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I am surprised to say the least 
that that nouns culture has 

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permeated into the third biggest
city in in Peru. 

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It was very surprising to see. 
I believe a noun ish sticker is 

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something about an art school. 
I was walking quickly to try to 

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get here on time. 
I'll have to take a closer look,

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get a better picture on my way 
home. 

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Yeah, you will for sure. 
When I did that trip, I, I flew 

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into Columbia, I went down, but 
it was me and four other guys 

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and we, this was back in the day
of like you would go to like a, 

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we went to, I think it was with 
STA travel and they like 

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organize your trip and they were
like, you're going to fly into 

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Barranquila, which is like they,
they were like, it's where 

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Shakira's from. 
You know, it's going to be 

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amazing. 
We turn up and Barranquila is 

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like an industrial city in the 
north. 

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And as soon as we turned up at 
the hotel, they were like, you 

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cannot leave, like you will just
get robbed if you if you, if you

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walk around here. 
That was a good start trip. 

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And no one spoke any English at 
all. 

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And we were like, oh, this is 
going to be we were there for 

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four or five months. 
Wow, that's quite the trip. 

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We'll have to unpack that at 
some point, folks. 

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We are going to talk more than 
our South American trips on this

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morning show. 
What are we going to talk about?

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This Trump tariff turmoil, What 
the fuck happened? 

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Impact on markets, initial 
reactions, bear case, bull case,

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all of that. 
We've got recession eyes nearing

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50% across markets right now. 
We're going to talk about in 

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coin outlook. 
We're going to talk about 

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Metamask shipping, a major 
update, this edge token that you

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might be qualified for. 
And in the back half of the 

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show, folks, we're going to have
the parallel Wayfinder team on 

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talk prompts, the future of AI 
agents, and a lot more. 

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So excited for that combo. 
Before we dive in, shout out to 

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our partners starting with 
Galaxis. 

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Galaxis is a Web 3 platform 
empowering creators and brands 

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to build unstoppable communities
with full ownership and 

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independence, trusted by icons 
like Donald Trump, Steve Aoki, 

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Mike Tyson and the NBA, shaping 
together the future of 

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engagement and wallet Connect is
the connectivity network shaping

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the future of on chain UX. 
If you've connected to a Web 3 

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app, you've seen wallet connect 
that blue logo, it's everywhere.

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And I kind of trust in crypto as
recognizable as Visa at the 

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checkout. 
So if you want to learn more, 

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follow at Wallet connect on X 
and Telegram to stay ahead of 

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what's next. 
We love our partners, as always.

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Shout to them. 
Mando, if you're ready, let's 

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just get into it. 
Can you dig? 

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It. 
Yeah, that was not a great day. 

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I I thought Liberation Day would
be a lot less than that. 

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Turns out he dialled it up to 11
on the tariffs and in some ways 

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simplified it and just went off 
to the people with the biggest 

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trade surpluses with the US. 
But in other ways that is just 

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going to lead to wild inflation 
in my opinion, if this 

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continues. 
So I thought this was not how 

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this was going to go, let's put 
it that way. 

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I thought he would target 
basically enemies or quasi 

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enemies of the US. 
Seemingly he's just stuck a 

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tariff on everything and some 
very, very high tariffs for a 

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number of different countries. 
This is going to affect a whole 

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range of goods and US based 
companies that create their 

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goods overseas. 
And yeah, like it's just, it's 

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not, that's not looking too good
like a 90% tariff on Vietnam. 

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It's kind of wild. 
Also just put tariffs on even if

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there's a trade surplus. 
Australia and the United Kingdom

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both have a trade surplus with 
the US, both got a 10% tariff. 

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I said there could be a world, 
you know, where with 

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negotiations, everyone's tariffs
come down. 

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This as a starting point is, is,
is going to be very, very tough 

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for that to happen. 
I think that I saw some maths 

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this morning that the average 
global tariff now goes to the 

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highest level in history, very, 
very high levels of tariffs 

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across the board the like, So 
there's two ways you could have 

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done this math. 
You could have been, this is 

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reciprocal tariffs, right? 
The EU does have a 20% global 

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tariff on goods coming in. 
So he could have said, look, 

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we're going to do a 20% tariff 
on that and he could have gone 

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off India, which has very high 
tariffs and been like, look, you

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have these tariffs on your 
goods, we're going to have on 

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that. 
That's not what happened here. 

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What he actually did or the 
Trump administration actually 

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did was they went after who are 
the countries with the biggest 

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trade surplus against the US. 
So Vietnam, for example, which 

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is getting a 90% tariff, doesn't
have anywhere near has a high 

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tariffs as that absolutely 
nowhere near. 

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Yet it's getting a 90% tariff 
because it has such a big trade 

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surplus against the US. 
And that's because a lot of 

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goods are often made in Vietnam 
with a lot of cheap labour. 

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But Vietnam is a place into it 
as well, kind of pretty, pretty 

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friendly with the US since the 
since the war. 

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Actually, it's bit, it's like 
very pro US when you go out 

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there, it's kind of a like quite
a lot of international companies

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are based out there. 
It's just like, I mean, I know a

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lot of clothes are made out 
there, all this sort of stuff. 

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So they've never really had like
unbelievable tariffs against the

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against the US and yet this is 
going to happen. 

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So and yet countries which do 
have high actual tariffs are 

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less, are seemingly less 
affected. 

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So you have these like really 
weird scenarios where like small

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countries with a trade, trade 
surplus because the US are 

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getting taxed at like 
unbelievably high levels. 

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Yeah. 
So it's it's, I don't think if 

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you're doing economics 101, this
is necessarily how you would 

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negotiate, let's say, because 
like, I don't know what Vietnam 

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can do, right? 
It's not like they can come back

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to Trump and say, hey, we're 
going to drop our tariffs 

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because this that's not what 
this calculation is. 

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This calculation is literally 
just who's got a trade deficit. 

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And that's, that's something 
that isn't sold via negotiation 

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with a lot of these, if I'm 
honest. 

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Sorry, yeah, 46% versus Vietnam.
But they've, they've, that's the

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calculation that they've used 
to, to do it because they've 

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said 50% of that basically it's 
going to become a tariff. 

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So, yeah, like I, I, the maths 
behind this for me isn't math. 

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Like isn't what you would have 
done in a negotiation like this.

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You would have gone, right. 
EU has got 20% tariff, we're 

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going to go after the EU and do 
those. 

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Japan has got very high tariffs,
we're going to go after that, 

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that India's going to have very 
high tariffs and then you would 

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have negotiated with those 
countries to bring those tariffs

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down. 
This is like a scenario where I 

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don't really know what some of 
these countries can necessarily 

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do in terms of and negotiate it 
down, which just means like, and

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also this wasn't what was really
flagged to people when people 

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said receptacle tariffs. 
I think they were thinking, you 

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know, like, all right, well it's
going to affect these countries 

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and we can deal with that. 
This is actually more affecting 

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some of the global supply chains
which which affect many U.S. 

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companies. 
You know, the reason why a lot 

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of these have Usus trade 
deficit, trade sub losses, 

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whatever, is because they 
generally import unfinished 

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goods into the US and then US 
either assembles them or some 

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sort of final process is done in
the US. 

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So it really effects that. 
So it's a real breakdown of just

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like global trade, this is an 
attack on global trade rather 

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than on attack on countries, 
which high tariffs. 

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So you're going to, the only way
I see this, this now happening, 

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you're going to get massive 
inflation in the US like, and 

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the one ray of sunshine here is 
that ideally this causes 

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countries to then immediately 
come to the negotiating table 

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like this is the highest it will
be. 

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So maybe like it's baked in, but
it's also a case of like how 

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long this stays in place is also
like the worry. 

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And yeah, it's really going to 
upend a lot of global supply 

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chains. 
So I, I think this is I, I 

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didn't think this is well done. 
If I'm honest, if I was in the, 

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the USI wouldn't think this was 
the the way done. 

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Like this isn't like a tit to 
tat thing, which is kind of what

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I think the US were like getting
on board with. 

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And I kind of understand, you 
know, like E us taxing us this, 

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we're taxing that. 
This isn't that they've 

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actually, they've actually gone 
after trades, the trade deficit 

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with all the countries. 
And then and, and that as a 

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logic is an attack on free 
trade, global trade. 

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And I don't think that's like 
the strongest of, of logics when

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it comes to like economic 
growth, because I think trade is

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actually one of the like 
underpins a lot of global 

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growth. 
So yeah, I, I think this is 

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maybe not the best way to have 
gone about that. 

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And I think stock market's 
telling you that everything's 

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selling off very, very badly 
today. 

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I personally think this is the 
sort of thing that can easily 

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cause a recession. 
Like the way it's been done 

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very, very easy could could 
cause a recession at 

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discontinues. 
And it's not one that's very 

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easily dealt with now with 
monetary policy because this is 

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going to cause inflation. 
You know, like if your clothes 

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are made in Vietnam, like Nike, 
your Nikes are made in Vietnam 

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and they're like, I forget 
whether the actual office is for

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Nike, but like, or various 
clothing companies, like you've 

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just got a 45% tax right now on 
those. 

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That is going to drive up 
prices. 

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That's going to drive up prices.
And that's not something that 

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just like changes like that. 
It's really not that that this 

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is going to take months. 
So and that affects their 

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ability to to fight it with 
monetary stimulus, which has 

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always been the base case of 
right rates are so high, they 

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can pump money, they can fix 
some of this stuff. 

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It's this is a difficult one 
now, like this is, this is 

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actually far more complicated to
fix if this is the position that

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was taken. 
And I think honestly, it was 

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taken in a very simplified way. 
Do you know what I mean? 

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Like, all right, we've got this 
one formula and that's how we're

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going to look at look at them 
all. 

224
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,360
That's the lens we're going to 
look at them all. 

225
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,640
And I think part of that was 
just because it was becoming 

226
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,440
difficult to work out like 
because some countries produce 

227
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,840
it in China, then send it to 
Canada and then it comes into 

228
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,040
the US. 
And like, so it's like, right, 

229
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,600
this is the best way to do it. 
But this was also going to lead 

230
00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,920
one of the harder ways to 
negotiate them down because some

231
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,040
countries which will not be able
to get to a trade surplus with 

232
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:03,680
the US and that will also mean 
much longer negotiations. 

233
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:08,840
And this will, this also effects
inflation in my opinion way more

234
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,640
than than the other, the other, 
the other forms where it was 

235
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,880
reciprocals and like you have a 
20% tariff, we we're going to 

236
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,800
put on a 20% tariff sort of 
deal. 

237
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,840
So yeah, I think I am not a fan 
of what this was. 

238
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:22,480
I I think this was not done 
well. 

239
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,120
Yeah, very, very fair reaction. 
Logan, I'm I'm curious for your 

240
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,800
thoughts as well. 
I think just quickly a couple 

241
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,600
reactions on my side. 
I do think that the calculation 

242
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,200
on how they got to this has been
one of the, the biggest problems

243
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,600
with it. 
And now it there's even people 

244
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,400
starting to uncover like Kobe, 
like did they literally just run

245
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,880
this through ChatGPT to come up 
with like a basic way to come up

246
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,160
with with this formula? 
And I don't know if that's been 

247
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:58,920
necessarily proven or not, but 
the, the logic behind these 

248
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,800
calculations and some of the 
countries on this list are, are 

249
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,040
very easy to, to poke holes in, 
which I think is undermine some 

250
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,320
confidence. 
And I'm with you. 

251
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,440
I think the biggest thing for me
is the uncertainty. 

252
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,760
Like, is this just a negotiation
tactic with the intent to 

253
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,960
actually bring these down to 
more reasonable levels or not? 

254
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,360
And if you're a company, how are
you supposed to operate in the 

255
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,160
near term if you don't know the 
answer to that? 

256
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,960
Like, are you supposed to bet 
that these are going to come 

257
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,440
down? 
Are you supposed to move 

258
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,120
forward? 
Like this is our the new world 

259
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,240
order? 
And I feel like everyone's in 

260
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,880
this holding pattern trying to 
figure this out. 

261
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:37,520
Like, that's where my head is 
this morning. 

262
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,160
Logan, what was your reaction? 
Yeah, You know, I don't have 

263
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,320
like, you know, too much 
additional to share, not a 

264
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,880
macroeconomic expert. 
And you know, I think most 

265
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,880
people have made-up their minds 
reading their feeds as to 

266
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,240
whether or not they see this as 
a positive or negative. 

267
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,200
The one thing I'll say, aside 
from some of the silliness, as 

268
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,680
you alluded to here with the, 
the potential ChatGPT inclusion,

269
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,160
the herd islands thing, you 
know, where they're implementing

270
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,640
tariffs on an uninhabited I like
man. 

271
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,000
Anyway, the one thing I will say
is I'm still very much 

272
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,000
struggling and part of this is 
my own curation, so my own 

273
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,600
fault, but I'm still very much 
struggling to see the, the 

274
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,640
positive cases. 
You know, like my feet is all 

275
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,720
the negatives and Amanda went 
through a bunch of them. 

276
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:24,560
The the potential negatives, 
right? 

277
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,160
I I'm just like I'm not getting 
enough of the argument for why 

278
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,520
right now and there's not enough
like pro counterpoints for me to

279
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:37,440
like get to a point where I'm 
feeling OK, you know, like this 

280
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,920
can resolve itself. 
This can blah, blah, blah, blah,

281
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,440
blah. 
I just, I feel you mentioned 

282
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,680
doom posting this morning, 
Tyler. 

283
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,920
I mean, like, that's kind of how
I feel just because I'm not 

284
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:53,160
getting any opium from from any 
sources of macroeconomic policy 

285
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,560
or whatever. 
Like who who out there is 

286
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,360
championing this aside from 
Trump in the administration? 

287
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,320
And where can I go to to learn 
more about why I should be 

288
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,480
thinking positively? 
Yeah, exactly. 

289
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,440
But I still, yeah, I gotta wait 
for the podcast. 

290
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,119
Exactly. 
So in the near term, I still 

291
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,280
have to be, you know, kind of in
this like whatever, you know, 

292
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,960
I'm, I'm not an expert. 
I have no reason to think 

293
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,440
positively because nobody else 
is showing me anything positive 

294
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,520
about it. 
And the market is not reacting 

295
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,720
positively either. 
So I know that's an 

296
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,560
oversimplification, but it seems
like that might be all is 

297
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,400
necessary for this 
administration. 

298
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,000
Yeah, I think that's fair. 
I think that's also semi 

299
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,720
consensus. 
We've got I. 

300
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,000
Think just get into the logic of
it like Vietnam. 

301
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,640
I just checked it now chat CPT 
has got a 2 to 5% tariff on some

302
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,720
goods from the US. 
So like if you're in the US and 

303
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,400
you think that that maybe you 
should have done a 2 to 5% 

304
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,560
tariff back, right? 
And that's not what's happened. 

305
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,680
That's why I think people are 
getting very confused with the 

306
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,000
logic here. 
They think, oh, we're going to 

307
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,320
go after Vietnam like Vietnam 
doesn't really have tariffs get 

308
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,480
the US. 
They know a lot of goods do get 

309
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,360
imported to the US, but it's 
because they included this in 

310
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:08,440
the fine print there. 
Tariffs charge to the US is not 

311
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,720
just tariffs, it's it's seen as 
currency manipulation. 

312
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,880
So what this really effects is 
like low income countries that 

313
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,440
have been, you know, like made 
in China, made in Vietnam, made 

314
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,320
in like a lot of these countries
which, which make the goods. 

315
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:30,400
Actually, I don't know if that's
what the US wanted from this. 

316
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,920
Maybe they did want to onshore a
lot of those like very low paid 

317
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,320
that you don't really have the 
workers to make those goods, so 

318
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,400
you're just going to make those 
goods more expensive for 

319
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,200
yourselves. 
Yeah, I think there's, there's a

320
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,080
lot of nuance to it. 
I don't know that the average 

321
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,120
American wants to bring all the 
goods that are created in 

322
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:50,640
Vietnam back onshore. 
I do think there's but you can 

323
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:56,280
be pro onshore manufacturing for
certain types of goods instead 

324
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,040
of all of them. 
I feel like looking at this 

325
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,760
list, one thing that I I have 
seen to take and it does kind of

326
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,800
jump out it, it's heavy against 
Asia and is there some kind of a

327
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,880
kind of a global supply chain 
shift telegraphing these 

328
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,880
numbers? 
That's that, that's, that is my 

329
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,680
exact take away too, because I 
was like, if he comes off to the

330
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,640
EU kind of Fair. 
Like they do have a common 

331
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,760
import tariff in the EU for, for
various different goods and it 

332
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:28,160
ranges from 5 to 20%, I think, 
depending on the goods. 

333
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,960
Like any good that comes into 
the EU generally has a tariff on

334
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,560
it. 
We do do, like the EU does do 

335
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,520
that, one of the few like big 
blocks to do it. 

336
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,160
India does it, Japan does it. 
There are some countries that 

337
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,840
abuse tariffs for this and 
that's they're not necessarily 

338
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,880
the people that have been 
affected as much by this. 

339
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,320
Yeah, looks like Latin America, 
Central America is all at the 

340
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:55,560
10% minimum for the most part. 
So I think that is perhaps one 

341
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,560
of the takeaways here. 
There's a lot to unpack. 

342
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,880
Maybe, Amanda, let's talk about 
markets a bit. 

343
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,560
So we've seen. 
The 10 year almost come under 4%

344
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,880
here. 
It's lowest it's been 4 the 

345
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,920
entire year so far. 
I think you you've mentioned 

346
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:17,120
stocks are down, I think S and 
PS down at 4% right now on the 

347
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:24,040
day dollars down 2% as well. 
Crypto majors down quite a bit 

348
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,240
as well here. 
So Bitcoin down a full 4 1/2 

349
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,000
percent, 8 down 5% Solana 10%. 
So basically the further out you

350
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,240
go on the risk curve, the the 
worst of goods for a coin down 

351
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,560
quite a bit I guess. 
What do you make of of this? 

352
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,200
I think yesterday on the show 
you mentioned dips are meant to 

353
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:42,440
buy. 
Have have you changed that 

354
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,960
perspective a bit? 
Well, I said for Bitcoin, if it 

355
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,280
goes to 80 K, you meant it like 
you meant to buy it. 

356
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,680
Bitcoins held up actually 
remarkably well, like remarkably

357
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,280
well. 
And it continues to because 

358
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,200
because gold is too and the 
dollar is a little bit weaker as

359
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,360
well. 
Honestly, this is the sort of 

360
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:04,720
thing that could stocks could 
drop like a lot more like a lot 

361
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,840
more. 
And weirdly as well, like, you 

362
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:15,760
know, we spoke about how Trump 
could go after go after big tech

363
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,360
a little bit and then, you know,
the average person wouldn't 

364
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:22,120
care. 
Like in many ways, this does 

365
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:27,600
affect a lot of the industrial 
companies in the US, you know, 

366
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,840
like there's a lot of raw 
materials or labour or parts 

367
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,760
which are made elsewhere that 
are then finished or created or 

368
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,160
assembled or whatever in the US.
And those businesses will get 

369
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,920
massively affected by this. 
But this this is going to affect

370
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,720
a lot of companies. 
This like a lot of people 

371
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,160
probably work for Nike, you 
know, is Nike a company that 

372
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,360
necessarily you expected Trump 
to kind of go after for 

373
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:53,040
something like this? 
And there'll, there'll be tons 

374
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,840
of companies like this. 
I haven't gone through them all,

375
00:21:54,840 --> 00:22:02,040
but like there's a lot of brand 
customer, consumer products 

376
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:05,760
companies here that are going to
be really badly affected, 

377
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,520
really, really badly affected. 
So I think the I think this can 

378
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,800
go like the real question is 
here, the reason why stocks 

379
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,680
aren't down 20% is because 
there's an expectation that 

380
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,160
there'll be some like 
negotiation between these. 

381
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,360
Like like already you see that's
not coming out like trying to 

382
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,360
slightly downplay it and be 
like, oh, you know, it won't be 

383
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:28,360
that bad and all this sort of 
stuff. 

384
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:34,520
I think that's the hope. 
But then you also have not that 

385
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,600
sort of commentary coming also 
coming from the same 

386
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,560
administration because they 
don't want to be seen to be 

387
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,560
saying, you know, we're going to
walk all this back straight 

388
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:42,760
away. 
And also this is kind of a 

389
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,080
cornerstone of what they were 
going to say. 

390
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:50,960
So I don't know like this is 
really going to affect global 

391
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,640
the in my opinion, it's going to
it's going to really hurt US 

392
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,360
inflation and it can hurt a lot 
of companies in the USA lot I. 

393
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,200
Think that's my challenge. 
And Logan, I'm curious for your 

394
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,720
additional thoughts on this too.
But I feel like, I feel like I'm

395
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,600
so conflicted right now. 
I'm just laughing because I 

396
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,200
don't know, like it feels 5050 
like this is negotiation tactic 

397
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,320
and they're going to lower 
these. 

398
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:14,960
And this was just a starting 
point. 

399
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,040
And then there's also the other 
side of me that thinks this is a

400
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,080
part of the core populist agenda
and they're trying to change the

401
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:25,280
world order and this is regime 
change and global trade change. 

402
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,480
And we are at the very start of 
all of this. 

403
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,480
And then if you if you set these
policies and then walking back. 

404
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,880
So like, are you not like at 
what Trump has done is follow 

405
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,960
through on his promises? 
I think he can, I think his base

406
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,800
can at least be happy in that 
he's doing what he said he's 

407
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,600
going to do. 
Now, if if you set this all up 

408
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,240
and then you walk it all back or
then are you not going after 

409
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,920
those promises? 
So, so that that makes me think 

410
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,920
they're going to keep following 
through with this. 

411
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,160
So like, I don't know. 
I still haven't made-up my mind.

412
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,600
Logan what? 
Yeah. 

413
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,680
No, I mean, I'm right there 
alongside you, Tyler. 

414
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:04,280
Like, like I said, I mean, I can
see the case, the case that's 

415
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,520
been made here previously by 
this administration. 

416
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,160
I, I understand to a degree, 
right. 

417
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,360
But whether or not it's 
negotiation tactic, whether or 

418
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:14,440
not the things that were 
displayed yesterday were 

419
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,120
intentional, whether or not like
some of those things, we just 

420
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:19,920
don't know. 
And that level of uncertainty in

421
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,600
how they're putting forth policy
and their future plans and 

422
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,280
whether or not they wish to, to 
hold true to them, it just like,

423
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,840
I don't know how you can 
possibly comment on it with any 

424
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,760
level of certainty or 
understanding. 

425
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,640
There's so many little things 
that are going to change from 

426
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,120
day-to-day that we've come to 
expect from Trump. 

427
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,840
And yeah, I'm just, I'm at a, 
I'm at a loss to be quite honest

428
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,480
as to, as to like what the, the 
next steps will look like, 

429
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,400
'cause they, it feels like he's 
left the entire playing field 

430
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,120
open. 
Like he still has every card he 

431
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:57,200
could potentially play, but that
just sort of feels like how he 

432
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,960
operates anyway, you know, 
because you can do, if he does 

433
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:01,920
something really silly, you'd be
like, oh, well, it's just Trump.

434
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,720
He's just being really silly. 
If he does something crazy, 

435
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,200
you're just like, oh, well, it's
Trump. 

436
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,200
He's just being crazy. 
Like, I don't know, kind of 

437
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,680
feels like that the guy who 
doesn't know how to play poker, 

438
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,040
who sits down at the poker table
and all, all cards are in play. 

439
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:21,160
I don't know what to expect. 
I did find one bull take on the 

440
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:22,520
timeline. 
There weren't many. 

441
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,560
All right, I'll. 
I'll share this for some of the 

442
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,480
bulls here and then maybe man 
know if you want to give 

443
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,080
reactions to this and then we 
can move on. 

444
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,400
I want to do a couple other 
quick headlines. 

445
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:37,120
Kyle from from Milk Rd. saying 
the bull case are basically 

446
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:39,280
tariffs are the highest they are
going to be right now. 

447
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,720
So we have countries removing 
tariffs, more negotiation. 

448
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,920
He's saying inflation lower and 
then inflation was high because 

449
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,480
of the scary. 
He's also been sharing those 

450
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,120
true flation numbers. 
Think that piece is a little bit

451
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:51,560
more debatable. 
Fed rate cuts. 

452
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,320
We did have the headline right 
before the show that traders are

453
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,960
pricing in now 50% chance of 
four Fed rate cuts. 

454
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:02,280
So that is potential bull case, 
dollar lower trying to print the

455
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:07,520
amount of global liquidity 
higher stable coin bill valid 

456
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,280
bull case reactions to this. 
Weirdly, like I think the case 

457
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,240
for crypto is slightly different
than the case for a lot of other

458
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,080
things, right? 
Like this actually does weaken 

459
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,240
the case for the dollar slightly
because it attacks the concept 

460
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,120
of the dot US being the centre 
potentially of trade as much. 

461
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:33,280
You know, if they're going to 
slap a 50% input tax on from 

462
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,040
certain countries, then maybe 
they're going to sell their 

463
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,320
goods to somewhere else. 
So the dollars over weaker which

464
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,560
which and in some ways that's 
meant that Bitcoin looks OK, 

465
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,680
gold, gold looks OK, although it
gold did fall as well. 

466
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:54,720
Even on the back of this I but 
for stocks, I think this is what

467
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,600
I just told you There is like 
this assumption that you can 

468
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:04,040
bring down tariffs. 
Firstly, that has not been the 

469
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,840
reaction from the vast majority 
of of the countries. 

470
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,400
EU said it would respond. 
China said it would respond. 

471
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,400
Japan said it would respond. 
The only ones that have shown 

472
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,680
restraint have been Australia 
and the UK, because I think they

473
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,320
know that like they'll probably 
be able to get their, their 

474
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,280
theirs down. 
That would be kind of crazy for 

475
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,160
at least them to face some sort 
of a tariff. 

476
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,200
Most of the others have 
indicated, you know, they're 

477
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,920
going to they, they just said 
that we're going to respond. 

478
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,240
I don't know how aggressive 
that's going to be, but also the

479
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,360
the second bit of this is this 
isn't, this isn't an attack on 

480
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:42,480
reciprocal tariffs, but like 
forget that word. 

481
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:43,960
This is, that's not what this 
is. 

482
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,400
This, this isn't this is an 
attack on anyone who has a trade

483
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,480
deficit with the US. 
And that is very difficult to 

484
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,360
negotiate from for a lot of 
these countries. 

485
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,280
Like they can't just like change
the the trade deficit. 

486
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:00,760
They can. 
If it was, if it was about 

487
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,480
tariffs, then I think you can 
get into a deal making and you 

488
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,200
know, that can be sorted in a 
deal, in a trade deal between 

489
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,080
two countries and be like, hey, 
yeah, you've got these tariffs, 

490
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,880
reduce them. 
You can't do that with half 

491
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,400
these countries. 
Like and it it's show most 

492
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,080
ridiculously, ridiculously 
lessly with the small countries 

493
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:25,040
with like no, zero people like 
take that to the extreme. 

494
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:26,960
Like there's no way that that 
country can do. 

495
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,280
Like, it's not like. 
Maybe a 90% tax from the US like

496
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,080
so yeah, I think this is this is
going to have a long term 

497
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,000
impact. 
I, I think Bitcoin can do OK 

498
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,880
here still like I'm not I'm not 
bearish on Bitcoin. 

499
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:52,200
Bitcoin dominance is going well.
It's Bitcoin dominance is going 

500
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,080
higher again, right? 
63% now. 

501
00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:01,560
Highs since 2021. 
Now that fixed up only to me. 

502
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:10,920
Yeah, not great when our leading
risk indicator, global indicator

503
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,440
is down 30%. 
I saw that last night. 

504
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,040
That's when I started sweating a
little bit more. 

505
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,800
But this was the this was the 
chart I had my eyes on the the 

506
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,400
most, but could still be a 
handle could could still be 

507
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,720
painting that handle on the cup 
here. 

508
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,400
So we will, we'll, we'll 
certainly see folks. 

509
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,000
I think that covered that the 
tariff story. 

510
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,960
I'm sure we'll be talking about 
it more on the days and weeks to

511
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,560
come. 
A couple other Web 3 lines. 

512
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,360
I see our, our parallel guys in 
in the studio here. 

513
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,000
We'll get to that conversation 
in just a couple minutes. 

514
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,480
I guess while we wait, if we 
have the roll bit code, I 

515
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:47,600
actually haven't had a chance to
see that. 

516
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,320
We'll get that out there. 
We'll we'll share that Tariffs, 

517
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,760
of course, tariffs is the code 
for today. 

518
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,440
We'll be doing those spins at 
the end of the show. 

519
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,040
Metamask kind of snuck in with 
some big news. 

520
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,680
Logan, not sure if you saw this.
You don't need native gas 

521
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,480
tokens. 
So you just got an AirDrop, 

522
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,600
let's say on bear chain. 
You don't You can just do your 

523
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,160
swap right there. 
Reactions to this? 

524
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,720
How big a deal? 
I mean, it's going to feel like 

525
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,520
not big a deal to a lot of 
people because everybody hates 

526
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,960
Metamask and thinks they're so 
wildly behind. 

527
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,800
And, and you know, in that case,
a lot of wallets, things like 

528
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,680
Rabbi have had things like gas 
accounts and other features 

529
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,560
similar to this previously. 
So they they're not the first to

530
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,640
get get here, but it's a big 
deal. 

531
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,200
I mean, these are, these are 
improvements that are necessary 

532
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,320
to making it easier to interact 
on chain. 

533
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,840
And despite the fact that the, 
you know, the incumbent took 

534
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,160
this long to, to get here, 
whatever they got here, at 

535
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,680
least. 
So I think, I think that 

536
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,320
matters. 
I still use Metamask from time 

537
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,560
to time. 
It's not my default wallet, but 

538
00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,040
I don't have the general disdain
for it or the brand that it 

539
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,120
seems, you know, most crypto 
participants actively do. 

540
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,840
So I'm all for, I'm all for 
innovating, adding, even if it 

541
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,920
does feel later good, because I 
I think that much like what 

542
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,160
we've seen with like open C, for
example, you make these types of

543
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,920
things, people may just start 
using it again just because of 

544
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,200
their the habits, right, the 
habit forming that that came 

545
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,040
from 2021. 
So yeah, I'm I'm all for this. 

546
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,600
That's a nice positive for meta 
mask. 

547
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,240
They've been, they've been doing
stuff. 

548
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,760
They have, yeah. 
I feel like they were kind of 

549
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,080
like the sleeping giant kind of 
sitting on, resting on their 

550
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,560
laurels perhaps. 
But now they've they've been 

551
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,600
shipping again. 
So I like to see that. 

552
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,400
And I'll admit I still use meta 
masks. 

553
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,600
This is great. 
This is like one of the main 

554
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,040
issues of onboarding for like 
people, right? 

555
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,720
You bridge to a new chain and 
it's like, oh God, like what 

556
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,240
have I got to do now? 
It's great, great, probably not 

557
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,640
great there. 
There's some of the L1 tokens 

558
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,280
we're still going down the road.
If maybe you compare your your 

559
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:09,960
gas down in in stables, I guess 
that will that will actually end

560
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,080
up being converted to the to the
the currency anyway. 

561
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,960
But yeah, it's still good. 
And they partnered with revoke 

562
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,680
cash, they've got a revoke cash 
tie in now directly in the 

563
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,240
portfolio tab. 
So I thought that was good. 

564
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,680
And Logan, any last quick story 
here? 

565
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,040
There was a bit of there was a 
surprise AirDrop yesterday. 

566
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:33,040
This edge token is doing well. 
I think it's up 2X off the off 

567
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:34,840
the bottom. 
I don't know a whole lot about 

568
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,720
this, curious if you had a 
chance to dig. 

569
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,080
In yeah, definitive is like a 
they may use a different word 

570
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,600
for it, but more or less like a 
trading terminal, right. 

571
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,680
So you can trade across 
different chains. 

572
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,360
I've used I've used it a little 
bit. 

573
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,680
There's some other competing 
products that I'm actually 

574
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,120
blanking on the names of right 
now. 

575
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,160
But if if you take a look there,
Tyler, like you could click that

576
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,160
CBBTC tab and you can swap to 
I'm sorry, I meant to the left. 

577
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,520
But anyway, you know, you could 
trade on a different chain, for 

578
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,000
example. 
Yeah, as you open that up it, it

579
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,880
lets you over to the right. 
Yeah. 

580
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:12,760
So you can, you can toggle from 
base and so no, no, you're good.

581
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,520
Toggle from base to salon or 
whatever. 

582
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,600
So it's just like it 
consolidated a lot of the cross 

583
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,240
chain trading that you may have 
wanted to do into one, into one 

584
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,120
spot in a nice little spot to do
so. 

585
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,960
So yeah, I actually was checking
some of my wallets because the 

586
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,080
eligibility criteria here is 
rewarding on chain traders, 

587
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,320
right? 
Heavy on chain traders from 

588
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,680
things like Hyper liquid Photon 
bullets, etcetera. 

589
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,200
If you trade a lot of salon of 
meme coins or maybe some tokens 

590
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,960
awaiting you. 
Actually, the the few walls I 

591
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,760
checked were not eligible. 
Womp, womp. 

592
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,800
But nevertheless, free money, 
tokens, airdrops, we need them 

593
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,640
right now more than ever. 
Thanks for walking us through 

594
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,040
that. 
So folks, if you trade on Hyper 

595
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,040
Liquid or Jupiter, go check that
out if you're interested, you 

596
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,280
might have some tokens. 
Breaking news, man, I just 

597
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,280
mentioned, I believe is out of 
Macron here urging companies to 

598
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,400
pause US investments. 
So I don't know that that's 

599
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:11,880
necessarily what. 
Paul's US investments and their 

600
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,040
response response to Wednesday's
announcement of US tariffs will 

601
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,440
be more massive than previous 
response. 

602
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,080
Good start, Good start. 
Not. 

603
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,159
Not what we wanted there, to say
the least. 

604
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,639
Yeah, if this is an art of the 
deal thing and all these, you 

605
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:33,040
know, companies are like, you 
know what FM, we don't, we don't

606
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,480
really need them. 
It should be. 

607
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,120
It should make for a fun fun 
next couple weeks, months, 

608
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,679
whatever. 
Fun is an interesting order to 

609
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:42,280
choose there. 
Yeah, fun, I know. 

610
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,760
Yeah, well, I think we we went 
around the horn. 

611
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,880
I'm sure that we there's a few 
other stories from the day. 

612
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,600
Maybe we'll catch up on those 
tomorrow. 

613
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,400
I want to make sure we have 
enough time to chat with our 

614
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:59,400
guests here, so I want to 
welcome Kylos and Adrian here 

615
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,320
from the parallel Wayfinder team
to the show here this morning. 

616
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,960
Folks. 
I think most folks now, if 

617
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,800
you've been around, you know, 
the parallel game when the 

618
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,560
longest running what, three 
games we've had. 

619
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,920
Now that they've been going 
deeper into AI with Wayfinder, 

620
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,400
they've got tge coming up for 
prompts. 

621
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,000
There's a whole lot to unpack. 
Adrian, Kylos, Jim, how you guys

622
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:20,280
doing? 
Good. 

623
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:23,160
Morning, good. 
Thanks for having us. 

624
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:24,800
Yeah. 
Thanks for having us. 

625
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,320
Excited to have you guys on. 
So there's, there's a lot of 

626
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,400
directions I want to go with 
this conversation. 

627
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,320
We have a lot to unpack, but 
maybe just for our let's just 

628
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,920
start with some background for 
any listeners out there who may 

629
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,880
not understand the, the, the 
story, the evolution from 

630
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,120
parallel, maybe give us the the 
quick history and maybe describe

631
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,840
where the ecosystem is right 
now. 

632
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,320
Yeah, sure. 
So we started by building ATCG 

633
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,360
and that TCG is available for 
download today in the Epic Store

634
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,000
if you want to play. 
And we kind of designed a number

635
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,720
of kind of games based on the 
assets that the TCG produced. 

636
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,320
We have one of them in alpha 
today called Colony, which is an

637
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,640
AI simulation game where an AI 
agent is the player and you talk

638
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,040
to the agent and everything in 
the simulation is on chain. 

639
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,360
And that game is in its kind of 
earliest alpha stage of testing 

640
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,680
with community members and will 
continue to roll out. 

641
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,880
And then we have a third person 
shooter that we've been working 

642
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,280
on with our partners at B3, 
which is like a gaming layer off

643
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,760
of base. 
And that game is called 

644
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,760
Sanctuary. 
And that game's slated to come 

645
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:43,720
out in Q3 and kind of a happy 
accident in all this is, you 

646
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:48,480
know, in Colony, as we built 
this AI agent that had access to

647
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,440
a restricted subset of smart 
contracts, you know, be it 

648
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,960
mining or going to the store and
buying something or whatever 

649
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,320
else. 
Essentially, we created an agent

650
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,440
that was able to interact with 
blockchain networks in a very 

651
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,760
limited way. 
And it begged the question. 

652
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,640
And a lot of that was inspired 
by the Stanford Google Simulacra

653
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,480
paper, which was kind of an AI 
agent game, or simulation, I 

654
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,480
should say, where agents kind of
demonstrated emergent behavior 

655
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,320
and started doing things that 
were unexpected, like planning a

656
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,280
Valentine's Day party. 
And we wanted to create 

657
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,440
something like that. 
And so, you know, when we 

658
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,560
stepped back from the creation 
of that game, we, we started to 

659
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,320
realize, OK, well, we've got 
this base framework for an AI 

660
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,400
agent to be able to interact 
with these limited smart 

661
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,320
contracts. 
What happens if we make it 

662
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:34,680
agnostic? 
What happens if we make it a 

663
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,640
tool that anyone can use to 
simplify interacting with 

664
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,760
everything? 
And, you know, I think Adrian 

665
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,840
and I maybe mulled over that 
enough times to eventually say 

666
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,360
like, hey, there's something 
really big here. 

667
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:54,040
And we think it's, you know, 
monumentally ambitious, but very

668
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,320
valuable if executed correctly. 
So that's kind of how this all 

669
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,400
happened. 
And that became Wayfinder, to be

670
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,520
clear. 
Yes. 

671
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,640
So I think that that's a little 
bit of the the intro for wave 

672
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,000
finders. 
Maybe now can we dig into like 

673
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,720
what wave Finder is and then 
kind of exactly where it fits in

674
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:14,320
in the eco? 
Sure. 

675
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,640
So Wave Finder has it's kind of 
a number of things. 

676
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:23,200
It has wallets, you know, across
Etherium, Arbitrum, Barnett, 

677
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:28,040
Smart Chain, Polygon and others,
as well as Solana. 

678
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,400
And you know, there's a number 
of agents that that wayfinder 

679
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,800
utilizes. 
So one of them is a transaction 

680
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,840
agent to be able to say like, 
hey, like take the, you know, 

681
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,360
ETH I have on mainnet Bridget to
Solana and buy dog with hat or, 

682
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,440
you know, reorganize my entire 
portfolio and optimize for yield

683
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:52,800
or just any type of transaction,
right. 

684
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,720
And then you have the, the smart
contract agent where you can 

685
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:59,160
say, you know, you're maybe a 
member of some community. 

686
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,520
Let's use Prime as an example, 
just because it's close to home.

687
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,960
You can say, Hey, I want to 
create a contract where, and 

688
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,680
literally you, you plan it to 
the agent. 

689
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,120
The same way I'm explaining it 
to you is I want to create a 

690
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,040
contract where once a week on 
Fridays, a winner is selected. 

691
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:17,360
Use chain link RNG to do that. 
And anyone can deposit prime. 

692
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,720
The minimum deposit amount is 50
prime. 

693
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,440
You know, put a 1% rake on any 
prime deposited and converted to

694
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,800
USDC. 
If if someone wants to withdraw 

695
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:31,920
before the draw on Friday, 
charge a 5% penalty and convert 

696
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,680
that to USDC. 
And then on the Friday, select 

697
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,240
the winner and they win all the 
prime of the contract and repeat

698
00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:42,240
the process every week. 
And what it'll do is it'll write

699
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:46,080
the contract, edit the contract,
deploy the contract and create a

700
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,320
front end for the contract for 
everyone to interact with it. 

701
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,240
So essentially, and like, I 
think people have started to 

702
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,080
share the, we call this code 
kind of nicknamed this Agent 

703
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,280
Vulcan. 
Vulcan, Some people have access 

704
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:58,840
to it right now. 
You know, thousands of people 

705
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,160
have access to Midas, which is 
the transaction agent and a, you

706
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,240
know, limited subset. 
As you know, we're testing some 

707
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:08,000
of the, the smart contract agent
functionality. 

708
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,760
And then there's other stuff 
like the autonomous agent. 

709
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,520
And really that's things like, 
you know, if the New York Times 

710
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,960
publishes an article that says 
the Fed prints, then perform 

711
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,840
this transaction, you know, by X
amount of whatever token. 

712
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,360
So things that are conditional 
in nature. 

713
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,400
So like if ETH performs this 
way, then do this. 

714
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,480
And so that's like a very small 
subset of kind of what we're 

715
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,480
working on a building. 
And then like on top of that, 

716
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,120
there's, you know, an ecosystem 
of securing and educating the 

717
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:40,520
agent. 
Because like the way this all 

718
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,840
works is, you know, maybe 
actually let me step back and 

719
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,160
say, like the, the world of 
blockchain and smart contracts 

720
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,720
is ever expanding. 
There's always new, something 

721
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:51,000
new popping up, a new token, a 
new network, a new smart 

722
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,400
contract that everyone's excited
about. 

723
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:55,840
And so how do you expand the 
graph of knowledge that AI 

724
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,640
interacts with such that people 
are incentivized to educate it 

725
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,640
on these things and teach it how
to interact with them when it 

726
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,000
hasn't otherwise done so before?
And how do you ensure that that 

727
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,000
input information that someone 
provides that educates that AIH 

728
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,600
into secure and collateralized? 
And really, you know, so we find

729
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,520
it fundamentally is, is, you 
know, guess it has wallets, it's

730
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,680
able to transact, it's able to 
build and deploy, it's able to 

731
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,520
perform functionality 
independence independently based

732
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,200
on, you know, conditional 
environmental inputs. 

733
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:31,520
Kind of like you have, you know,
open AI would have access to 

734
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,920
external sources like tools. 
And you know, you'd have 

735
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,800
Anthropic who have, you know, 
MCP, essentially they're all 

736
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,040
just tools that AI agents used 
to interact with the world 

737
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,760
outside. 
So it's kind of this big new 

738
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:48,920
idea of, you know, sitting on 
top of everything and allowing 

739
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,160
people to do things in extremely
simple ways. 

740
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,360
And, you know, we've always kind
of had this ambition as a space 

741
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,080
of like, obfuscating the 
complexity. 

742
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,120
And this does that because it 
puts almost like an intelligence

743
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:03,440
layer between you and 
everything. 

744
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:07,200
And that's what people are I 
think are excited about because 

745
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,160
they're starting to see this and
use it for the first time. 

746
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,600
And it is real. 
I, I've seen the excitement. 

747
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:13,560
I, I'm, I'm friends with Andy 
805 too. 

748
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,840
I've, I've seen like the 
experiments that, you know, he's

749
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,680
starting to run and I, and I 
liked that and I had it up on 

750
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,560
the screens. 
I think it, I don't have his 

751
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,360
original tweet, but basically 
he, he used the tool, he, he 

752
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,800
used natural language 
programming to say like, hey, 

753
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,600
this is what I want to do, 
generate the code. 

754
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,160
And it did it. 
And now he's actually like 

755
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,400
working through the, the process
of, you know, having developed 

756
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,440
the code and now debugging it, 
which is something. 

757
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,480
I think. 
Yeah, like I think he's actually

758
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,520
not even debugging it. 
He's saying can anyone see any 

759
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:42,680
issue with it? 
Right. 

760
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,240
He also created like a 
generative art collection and 

761
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:47,800
people started using Wavefinder 
to mint that art collection, 

762
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,480
which he used Wavefinder to 
create. 

763
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:51,760
I'm sorry. 
I think it's this thing that's 

764
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,200
incredibly powerful. 
It's almost like limited by the 

765
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,400
creativity of of the person. 
Like, how good are you at 

766
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:57,920
prompting? 
I think we've heard this like, 

767
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,920
narrative of like prompting as a
skill and we should all be kind 

768
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,840
of thinking about how we're 
going to position ourselves and 

769
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,200
become good at that. 
I think this is exactly that 

770
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,640
case where it's like you are 
limited by your own creativity 

771
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,960
here. 
Yeah, what what ideas do you 

772
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,840
have here like the, the agents 
can can I can literally bring 

773
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,920
them to life for you, which is 
very exciting. 

774
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:23,160
And I feel like we're just still
scratching the surface of this. 

775
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,920
I am curious as you were going 
through the development, like 

776
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,840
what was some of the like, what 
were the hardest parts? 

777
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,040
Like I feel like we've seen the 
explosion of ChatGPT and like it

778
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,480
was limited more on the crypto 
side. 

779
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,760
It felt like the the crypto data
like back end was perhaps one of

780
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,920
the the reasons why it was 
lagging behind. 

781
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,360
I'm curious like what what you 
ran into, you know, as you've 

782
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,800
been building this over the last
months and years? 

783
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:46,840
I'll let Adrian speak to that, 
yeah. 

784
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,000
Yeah, it's, it's, I would say 
like the data is actually quite 

785
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,040
good these days. 
There's a lot of aggregators 

786
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,840
that you can leverage like, you 
know, flip side and transpose 

787
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,720
and things like that to be able 
to give agents like solid 

788
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:05,440
context of what's going on on 
chain. 

789
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,280
The hardest piece is more the 
like vendors to be totally 

790
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,560
honest. 
It's the like tooling in the Web

791
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,720
3 space. 
So like a lot of these 

792
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,440
activities that we were hoping 
that we didn't have to like do 

793
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:27,200
ourselves, we ended up having to
insert or in house a lot of them

794
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,480
just because it it was either 
like very unreliable or very 

795
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,640
expensive for what it was we 
thought at least. 

796
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,560
So yeah, I mean, in, in the 
short term it was like a little 

797
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,520
bit of pain. 
But now we've ended up with like

798
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,880
a pretty reliable solid product,
we think. 

799
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,600
Everyone please battle harden 
your APIs and STKS if you want 

800
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,120
to use them please. 
Yeah, we, there's a like we had 

801
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,440
to put in so many redundancies 
to make sure that like 

802
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,360
transactions land, to make sure 
that you can see like the 

803
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,320
balances that are in your, like 
the actual tokens that are in 

804
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,360
your wallets, like things that I
would have taken for granted as 

805
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,520
like a Web 3 consumer. 
It's tough. 

806
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,720
Can we, can you give me the 
rundown again of the specific AI

807
00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:14,360
agents? 
So there's Midas and like what 

808
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,000
does Midas do specifically? 
So, yeah, so Midas is the 

809
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,160
transaction agent, right? 
So it it performs like multi hop

810
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,200
transactions, simple 
transactions, bridges, you know,

811
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,640
depositing for, you know, into 
different kind of yield earning 

812
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,680
at, you know, protocols, 
whatever else, which is really, 

813
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:33,760
really basic as basic 
transaction as well as also like

814
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,280
extremely complicated multi hop 
transactions. 

815
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,960
And then you have Vulcan, which 
is again, these are just like 

816
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,360
nicknames. 
We'll probably change all these.

817
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,480
These are just kind of like us 
being losers when we were 

818
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,040
creating it, making fun names, 
code names. 

819
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,640
Yeah, code names. 
Exactly the second. 

820
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,720
So Vulcan or, or the smart 
contract agent is able to write,

821
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:56,880
edit, ought and kind of deploy 
as well as build a front end for

822
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,960
smart contracts that you 
articulate to it. 

823
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,040
And you can use referential 
information. 

824
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,920
You can say like, hey, like, you
know, let's use the supply and 

825
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,480
mechanics based on Bitcoin and 
it'll do that. 

826
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,800
And so then there's the 
autonomous agent. 

827
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,880
And the autonomous agent is 
really about performing 

828
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,120
transactions that are 
conditional on events. 

829
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,960
And you know, and these, these 
are the ones were able to share 

830
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:23,320
today, right? 
These are the ones we can talk 

831
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,680
about. 
And then there is kind of like a

832
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,840
yield optimization agent, which 
is like, hey, I've got a huge 

833
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,040
portfolio of tokens and this 
would kind of fall under Midas a

834
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,040
bit, but like I've got this 
massive portfolio of tokens, 

835
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,400
optimize the whole thing for 
yield and it'll swap you in and 

836
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,360
out of whatever is going to 
optimize you for the greatest 

837
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,240
return. 
And so those are kind of like 

838
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:47,600
the major pieces. 
But there's also like general, 

839
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,280
you know, information 
availability as well, right? 

840
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,880
Like you can say like, I don't 
know, tell me who, you know, 

841
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,760
Popcorn Kirby is on CT or tell 
me who Anthem is. 

842
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:03,160
It'll tell you a bit about them.
And so I think like Adrian, am I

843
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,400
missing anything that we've 
released today to date? 

844
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,120
Yeah. 
I think just one highlight for 

845
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,000
the Vulcan agent is that you 
can, so you can do smart 

846
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:18,280
contracts, you can use like 
external sources of information.

847
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,480
We also have some documentation 
preloaded so you can like if you

848
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,800
say, Oh yeah, I want to use, you
know, the Oracle from chain link

849
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,520
for EUSDC on base, It'll know 
where to pick that up from 

850
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,720
because it has like kind of a 
sub agent under the hood that's 

851
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:37,280
going to do some research for 
you or Moonwell or Aerodrome or 

852
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,040
pancake swap or I think a few 
other ones that we got loaded up

853
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,800
currently. 
It also can you can also like 

854
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:52,920
vibe code pass if you want to. 
So the the the agent is like 

855
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,000
capable of not only doing smart 
contracts but also creating like

856
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,440
new capabilities for Midas for 
the transaction agent. 

857
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,000
So. 
Sorry Adrian, I don't think they

858
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,720
maybe we should just roll back. 
Can you explain what paths are 

859
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,360
so that everyone understands 
what that means? 

860
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,440
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
It's basically just like 

861
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,000
capabilities within Web 3 for 
the agents. 

862
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:17,440
So if, you know, I wanted to be 
in like a certain Moonwell 

863
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,640
Lending vault and that's not 
currently available for for 

864
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,960
Midas transaction agent, I can 
hop over to Vulcan, give some of

865
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,000
the context if it doesn't have 
it already. 

866
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,360
So like add, you know, smart 
contracts to the context of the 

867
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,200
agent and then create a path. 
So like create kind of like a 

868
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,640
macro basically that says like 
this is the information in this 

869
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,760
is what it has to do. 
And then this is the information

870
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,480
out. 
So it's very composable. 

871
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,880
And then if you want to, once 
you've created this, this macro,

872
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,720
this function, you can say like,
OK, it's useful for me, maybe 

873
00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:56,200
it's useful for other people. 
So I'd like it to become public.

874
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,200
And if it becomes public, then 
that becomes like part of the 

875
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:04,360
capability for anybody to use 
within these other agents. 

876
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,320
So as people are creating stuff,
all the agents kind of benefit 

877
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,840
from it, and the person who 
creates it gets some sort of 

878
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:13,040
reward. 
Yeah. 

879
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:17,320
So essentially, as people teach 
Wayfinder new things, and 

880
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,440
there's some like nuances to how
that's collateralized and 

881
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,000
secured and so on, it becomes 
smarter because it becomes 

882
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,920
capable of interacting with more
contracts, and there's an 

883
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,040
incentive for that, and everyone
gets to upgrade automatically, 

884
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,040
right? 
So essentially it's this machine

885
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,320
that becomes better as a result 
of people using it. 

886
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:39,440
This is so I was reading through
this tweet. 

887
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,800
I didn't quite the light bulb 
hadn't gone off. 

888
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:46,520
Yeah, Now it has like this is a 
pretty big differentiator I got.

889
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,560
I want to get your thoughts on 
the broader crypto AI meta. 

890
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,080
I don't think we saw that this 
type of incentive mechanism. 

891
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:57,240
Now all of your users are 
incentivized to help build out 

892
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,920
prompts capabilities, and then 
the agent gets stronger. 

893
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:07,400
Yes, and and prompt is the 
collateral used to secure that 

894
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,160
that information input. 
I think like there's a lot of 

895
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,600
fundamental differences than 
what you've seen, like major, 

896
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,440
major differences than. 
What you've seen like I mean, 

897
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,880
I'm curious, so you all have 
been working on this. 

898
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,160
You had the vision, you've been 
building it. 

899
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,440
Meanwhile, from November to to 
January, we saw, I'll call some 

900
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:28,600
slop AI reply bots see 9 figure 
valuations. 

901
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,480
Like what did did that impact 
you? 

902
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:32,960
Like what? 
What were your thoughts and 

903
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,560
takeaways since we had this huge
bubble blow up and then deflate 

904
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,720
here while you guys were all 
heads down building? 

905
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,400
I mean, it didn't impact us 
really. 

906
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,640
I think like we were watching. 
It's not really what we're 

907
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,880
doing. 
I think I'd consider those like 

908
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,880
social agents really, right. 
Like they can't really do any of

909
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,400
the stuff that even Midas can do
at its most basic level. 

910
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,760
And that's not to say there 
isn't really a place for social 

911
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,160
agents. 
And they don't you don't have 

912
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:11,240
some kind of meaningful future. 
I just think that that Midas nor

913
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:16,360
Vulcan or Wayfinder as a whole 
is is even comparable because 

914
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,680
it's not really supposed to be 
something that's like, hey, like

915
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,320
everyone can just talk to it as 
like a social character and you 

916
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,320
know, it's funny and says stuff.
It's more like your personal 

917
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,800
banker, right? 
It's like, you know, the same 

918
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,120
way if someone doesn't under 
most people don't understand 

919
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,040
SWIFT codes and how wires are 
sent and you just tell your 

920
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,480
banker you want to send a wire. 
And that's pretty complicated as

921
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:39,920
a process in traditional 
banking. 

922
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,680
This is easier. 
You're just like, hey, I just 

923
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,920
want to send money to this 
person and you're like, OK, and 

924
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,600
it's done. 
Or you know, you're interested 

925
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,080
in buying some mutual fund or 
whatever, you know, ETF or 

926
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,080
something at a bank like you 
just like, can you put me into 

927
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:53,800
this ETF? 
Or if you're self-directed, you 

928
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,680
can just do it yourself. 
Really, this is like a way for 

929
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,920
people to interact in a kind of 
structure and format with crypto

930
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:03,000
systems by but having support 
structure in place so they don't

931
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,240
have to know what DEX is to use,
you know, where the best yield 

932
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:07,440
is or all these different 
things. 

933
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,880
It's just, you know, we as a 
collective educate Wayfinder and

934
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,120
therefore Wayfinder doesn't 
require the consumer to know how

935
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,240
to do any of it. 
It just does what it, you know, 

936
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:22,560
wants it to do. 
It's a powerful model. 

937
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:29,480
I think yeah, the the agents in 
that November to January time 

938
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,880
period, I think just did 
something totally different. 

939
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,440
And I feel like for that like 
chunk of time, that's what 

940
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,640
everyone assumed agents in 
crypto were. 

941
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:45,360
It was just like is like social 
conversation thought, which I 

942
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,120
think we're really cool. 
Like they definitely had 

943
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,960
utility. 
I think the space got a little 

944
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,720
bit like noisy, to be honest. 
And I remember going to some 

945
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:54,960
meetings and people were like, 
oh, cool, cool, cool. 

946
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,960
Like doing little demos and, and
people were like, yeah, that's 

947
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,760
great, that's great. 
But like, how do I get it to 

948
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:06,320
tweet at people? 
Like we we kind of, well, when 

949
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:10,280
you step back, we kind of built 
social agents like a year before

950
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,440
all this happened, right? 
Because we built colony and 

951
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,560
people were interacting with 
these social agents that were 

952
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,120
performatively behaving in 
certain ways like sci-fi 

953
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,240
characters from our world. 
We just didn't really think like

954
00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:24,440
it was super valuable. 
And that's maybe an oversight 

955
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:25,600
really. 
But like we didn't really think 

956
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,840
like it was just wasn't a flag. 
We wanted to plant to be like, 

957
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,120
we're going to create characters
all over the Internet with these

958
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,000
these guys was more like we did 
that, but for a game. 

959
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,320
But people definitely were like,
are you going to do something 

960
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:39,560
like it's happening? 
Like are you? 

961
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,560
We're like, but we're not 
building that. 

962
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,840
So we, we think, we think we 
made the right choices. 

963
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,200
You know, we're, we're really 
focused on building something 

964
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,880
that's of like extreme 
usefulness, like I think the 

965
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,160
last like 10, you know, let's 
say there's 10 million of us or 

966
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,560
whatever, obviously more, but 
you know, in blockchain and 

967
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,720
crypto today, like I think the 
next 100 million people will 

968
00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:04,560
need a very different support 
structure than a green and a red

969
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,000
button. 
I think like a green and a red 

970
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,520
button for buy and sell is even 
as simple as you can boil. 

971
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:13,080
That is very analogous to money.
Most people are very confused by

972
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,880
money to begin with and stock 
trading systems and this type of

973
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,640
stuff. 
So like, it'd be very, I think 

974
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,400
we need a new solution and the 
new solution looks a lot like 

975
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,160
helping people educate, 
educating them, making them feel

976
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,720
comfortable, absolving them of 
having to understand the 

977
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:29,320
complexity, allowing them to 
make decisions and see what's 

978
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:33,040
happening and ask questions. 
And, and that's really what 

979
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,600
Wayfinder's designed to do. 
And if you want to be really 

980
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,400
complicated, you want to run a 
really crazy D5 strategies, you 

981
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,400
want to run, you know, portfolio
optimizations, you want to build

982
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,280
and deploy smart contracts for 
people to interact with, you can

983
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,480
also do those things. 
But if we need to 1st service 

984
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,720
that, you know, next 100 million
people and I think that will 

985
00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:56,400
look nothing like the last, you 
know, kind of number of years of

986
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,440
products that we built and, and 
it's, we have never seen a 

987
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:01,120
different product. 
They're all very similar. 

988
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,440
They're all like you want to buy
Bitcoin, green button, red 

989
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,600
button, but it's like that's 
about it. 

990
00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:11,000
This is nothing like that. 
Yeah, if I, if I can jump in, 

991
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:12,360
this has been really 
enlightening from my 

992
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,640
perspective. 
And disclaimer, Prime Casher and

993
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,120
I've been following the the 
Wayfinder journey for quite some

994
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,040
time now. 
I really love what you guys have

995
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,120
been sharing here. 
It's analogous in my head just 

996
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:25,840
because I've written some 
stories about the vibe, you 

997
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,680
know, you're kind of like vibe 
coding for crypto participation.

998
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,680
You know what I mean? 
Which is really, really 

999
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:31,400
important. 
And that's an 

1000
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,160
oversimplification, of course, 
but I'm, I'm generally curious, 

1001
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:39,240
like how do you plan aside from 
gating access and, and stuff to 

1002
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:41,280
get going here? 
How do you plan to onboard 

1003
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,800
people to this and, and make 
sure that they're aware that 

1004
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,760
this is possible? 
Because as you've alluded to, 

1005
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,920
you have built something 
different than those other AI 

1006
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:53,000
agents, right? 
And it has just much, much more 

1007
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,520
to it. 
How do you kind of break that in

1008
00:55:55,520 --> 00:56:00,240
their head, that definition of 
AI agent and AI interaction, and

1009
00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:03,960
ensure that they understand just
just what can be done to get 

1010
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,480
them to on board and start 
interacting with crypto in a 

1011
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,960
different way? 
Yeah, I think a lot of it comes 

1012
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,360
down to, like awareness, right? 
And I think as we put these 

1013
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,120
tools in people's hands, we're 
starting to see people share 

1014
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,120
what it's doing and how easy it 
is. 

1015
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,800
And like essentially the 
consumer, the user of the 

1016
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,360
product or tool is becoming the 
Net Promoter, right? 

1017
00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:24,240
But like, they're like, this is 
ridiculous. 

1018
00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:26,920
I just bridged and did something
that would take me 20 minutes in

1019
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,840
like 2 seconds. 
And so I think like the delta is

1020
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,400
so massive and people 
underestimate it, you know, and 

1021
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,280
we're still like not even at 
optimal speed on the application

1022
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,240
in terms of compressing the LLM 
to, to see kind of optimal 

1023
00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:43,040
processing times. 
And so I think a lot of it's 

1024
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:44,840
going to come down to two 
things. 

1025
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,720
One, like putting the correct 
messaging together to share that

1026
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:50,800
message and, and in that message
demonstrating it. 

1027
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,640
Like, I'd love to see someone 
sitting at a desk who's like a 

1028
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,120
really like, let's get Logan 
sitting at a desk who's, you 

1029
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:59,680
know, super capable, I'm sure 
with all the different tools and

1030
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,440
tabs he uses to be able to do 
something. 

1031
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,200
And then get Adrian's or someone
actually someone who's never 

1032
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,200
touched this stuff with wave 
Finder and asked both of them to

1033
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,400
do the same thing. 
And I got like 50 bucks that 

1034
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,400
says the person who's never done
it will get it done faster than 

1035
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:15,720
Logan would do with all of his 
tools and tabs. 

1036
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,360
And so I think like highlighting
that like a super skilled person

1037
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:21,880
who knows how to do this stuff, 
it would take you longer to do 

1038
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,200
it than a person who's never 
done it. 

1039
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,600
And it's just retyping the thing
that was asked of them. 

1040
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,360
So I think like demonstrating 
like that almost like an Apple 

1041
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,240
approach, like Microsoft and 
Apple side by side to kind of 

1042
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,840
explain the difference. 
And then I think also like 

1043
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,440
there's going to be a lot of 
interest around the thread that 

1044
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,320
I think Tyler was commenting on,
which, you know, we're working 

1045
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,000
on repackaging this into an iOS 
and Android app, Fire React 

1046
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,840
Native. 
So I think like the ability for 

1047
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:56,040
people to experience this for 
the first time, there's a lot of

1048
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,560
curiosity around it. 
I think there's like a multitude

1049
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:01,680
of ways in which this. 
And then on top of that, there's

1050
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:03,560
the API. 
Like there's going to be times 

1051
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,720
where you're interacting with 
Wayfinder, you don't even know 

1052
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,000
you are like a great example is 
if you run, if you're out there 

1053
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,640
and you're watching this and you
run some informational site that

1054
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,040
has, you know, a bunch of token 
information or crypto 

1055
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,760
information, and you want to put
actionability and share in the 

1056
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:19,960
value derived from the 
transactions associated with 

1057
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,440
that information. 
When our AP is ready, we'd be 

1058
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,320
would love to work with you. 
And so I think, you know, 

1059
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:29,240
proliferating that, that, that 
ability beyond just our 

1060
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:34,080
application, beyond just our 
desktop, you know, app and our 

1061
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:36,440
mobile app, I think making it 
available and putting it into 

1062
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,800
everything is the objective. 
And I, and I think lastly is 

1063
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,160
just like, you know, beyond 
crypto is like thinking about 

1064
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:50,440
how you can create viral moments
and allow people to do things 

1065
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:55,880
that were otherwise very 
difficult and, and in that maybe

1066
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:57,800
provide additional utility to 
all crypto. 

1067
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,160
Like, you know, still you have 
to go hunting down different 

1068
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,560
websites if you're going to go 
try to book a trip with, you 

1069
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:06,040
know, crypto. 
It's like, why couldn't we just 

1070
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,160
be the translation layer between
like organizing your trip, 

1071
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,800
finding your places to stay, 
paying for that like a multi 

1072
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,880
agent framework. 
So I think there's a lot of 

1073
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,560
stuff that can go completely 
gangbusters viral here. 

1074
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,160
I think obviously we've seen the
beginning of that excitement, 

1075
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,080
which in, you know, this 
released to a couple 1000 

1076
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:23,680
people. 
I think once we open it up, it's

1077
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:28,800
going to be pretty exciting. 
I think that the strategy makes 

1078
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,840
sense to kind of having your 
users tell the story and do some

1079
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,200
of the educating and paint the 
picture of what you can do as a 

1080
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:38,800
way to to onboard and get the 
message. 

1081
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:40,680
I think that makes a lot of 
sense. 

1082
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:44,080
I guess my, I have similar 
question as Logan, but for me, I

1083
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,920
see the vision that on a daily 
basis I'm no longer going to 

1084
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,400
have to click the buttons. 
I can use an agent to do this 

1085
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,240
for me and I want to live in 
that world. 

1086
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,880
What's been holding me back to 
date is the trust issue. 

1087
00:59:55,640 --> 01:00:01,320
So like how do you get your 
average user to trust using 

1088
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,400
Midas or an AI agent to conduct 
transactions for it? 

1089
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,040
So, so I actually, I think that 
there's like an education 

1090
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,560
opportunity here, like you still
just have a wallet and a 

1091
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,400
signature, right? 
And it's simulating the 

1092
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,240
transaction prior to your 
execution. 

1093
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,520
So you're looking at the thing 
you want it. 

1094
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,600
You said like, you know, I want 
you to take my USDC from 

1095
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,600
Binance, Bridget to Solana and 
buy X token or whatever. 

1096
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,240
You're looking at the 
transaction that you dictated 

1097
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,760
before you execute it. 
So like it's, I think a lot of 

1098
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,680
people have this idea in their 
head that I gave an AI agent 

1099
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,600
access to a wallet and therefore
it's going to run wild and throw

1100
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,560
my tokens all over the Internet.
And it's like completely, it's 

1101
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:50,480
completely incorrect. 
None of the way Wayfinder works 

1102
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:54,800
is, is anything like that. 
So I, I think there's obviously 

1103
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:58,280
an education opportunity there. 
But I think like, you know, 

1104
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,120
coming back to the, the gross 
kind of conversation initial 

1105
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,360
kind of how, how you, how these 
things get traction generally. 

1106
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,040
Like, you know, I think you now 
we're sitting like over the last

1107
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,200
two weeks or a week and 1/2 that
we've given this to a couple 

1108
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,880
1000 people. 
There's now 1.3 million wallets 

1109
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:16,840
across EVM and Solana. 
And I think looking at, you 

1110
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:21,880
know, the example of Chachi BT 
is a great way to think about it

1111
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,280
is like, what are those really 
exciting things that you're 

1112
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,080
like, I can't believe it's doing
this and it's doing it so well 

1113
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,160
like like it does for Ghibli 
images. 

1114
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,200
And I think, you know, those are
the types of things that become 

1115
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,160
net promoters and kind of 
explain, you know, those people 

1116
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:40,240
become your your growth 
believers themselves. 

1117
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,120
And they're the ones who are 
like, you have to try this. 

1118
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,960
And so I think our goal is to 
create the holy shit moments. 

1119
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,480
And like, you have to try this 
moments because it's infinitely 

1120
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,200
better. 
And I think that kind of points 

1121
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,920
back to that classical adage of 
like, if you're not 10X better, 

1122
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,800
it's not good enough. 
And that's really what we're 

1123
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:57,120
aiming for. 
So. 

1124
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:59,840
I see. 
I mean, maybe it's just my 

1125
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:04,280
Twitter feed, but I see it all 
the time, like people doing very

1126
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,200
complicated transactions, 
posting their simulation results

1127
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:13,440
and posting the like outcomes 
and talking about it pretty like

1128
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,680
aggressively. 
So I think the community has 

1129
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,880
been doing an awesome job of 
showcasing its capabilities for 

1130
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,240
others. 
Maybe I need to curate my feed. 

1131
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,600
I see that unless doom posting 
and ship posting on on a daily 

1132
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:28,040
basis. 
But I, I do think this could be 

1133
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,320
a 10X product. 
So super excited for this and 

1134
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,400
what you all been building. 
And I feel like some culmination

1135
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:37,040
here of, of years of effort 
coming. 

1136
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,280
I guess we, we, we could talk 
for a full hour. 

1137
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,520
We're already 7 minutes over. 
I guess I want to give you a 

1138
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,440
chance. 
What do our listeners need to 

1139
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:45,520
know? 
What do you want to leave them 

1140
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:47,680
with? 
How can they, you know, engage? 

1141
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:49,880
Yeah. 
So on the wave Finder side, 

1142
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,720
because we spend so much time on
that, go to app dot, wave 

1143
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,560
Finder, dot AI and you can sign 
up and register and well, get 

1144
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,360
your wallet set up. 
So you're kind of in the 

1145
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:03,400
initiation pool to get selected 
for early access now. 

1146
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:07,800
So you can be the people who get
to try it first on the parallel 

1147
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,520
side. 
You know, definitely follow at 

1148
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,320
Parallel TCG on Twitter. 
If you haven't, you're welcome 

1149
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:17,520
to download the game today on at
the Epic Store. 

1150
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,840
I think this year's prize pool, 
we just had held our first 

1151
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,360
championships in Vegas. 
I think this year's prize pool 

1152
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:25,760
is significantly larger, 
definitely in the side 7 figure 

1153
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:27,600
range. 
Shout out to the Echelon 

1154
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:31,000
Foundation for arranging that 
and all of our partners and 

1155
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:35,200
everyone who made that possible.
If you're into trying the AI 

1156
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:40,760
simulation game, you can follow,
I think it's a parallel colony 

1157
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:45,960
or on Twitter. 
And you know, definitely 

1158
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,400
register to play that. 
That's coming out in iOS and 

1159
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:52,040
Android. 
You know, it's already in test 

1160
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,360
and alpha today and rolling out 
further in the coming weeks and 

1161
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:59,880
months. 
And then follow Sanctuary under 

1162
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:02,600
score B3 if you want to learn 
about our third person shooter. 

1163
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,320
And yeah, just thanks for having
us, Tyler. 

1164
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,400
And you know, Logan, appreciate 
you guys and Adrian thinks, you 

1165
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,840
know, for all you do as well, 
making everything work because 

1166
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:15,200
it's a complicated thing to 
build. 

1167
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:18,320
Yeah. 
Well, thank you both for for 

1168
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:20,000
coming. 
This wasn't a very insightful 

1169
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,440
conversation. 
Also love having you on. 

1170
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:25,400
I'd love to have you guys back 
on in in the future as we've got

1171
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,680
new agents running around and 
perhaps we're further out on the

1172
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,280
adoption curve. 
And of course we didn't even 

1173
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:31,680
talk about that the tge coming 
up. 

1174
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:34,800
So good luck with with that. 
I know that's going to be a big 

1175
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:36,960
one and one of the folks have a 
lot of eyes on. 

1176
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,000
So Congrats, we'll be rooting 
for you. 

1177
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:41,080
Thanks for coming on. 
Appreciate you guys. 

1178
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:41,480
Bye. 
Bye. 

1179
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,000
Thanks for having us. 
Awesome. 

1180
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:45,520
Well folks, thanks for staying 
on with us. 

1181
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:47,280
That was a hell of an interview.