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I'm Dustin Grinnell and this is 
curiously today we have a 

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fascinating conversation ahead 
with an expert in the field of 

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self compassion. 
But before we dive in, I want to

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share a personal story that led 
me to explore the power and 

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potential of self compassion. 
About seven years ago, I found 

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myself in a frustrating and 
painful situation. 

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I was dealing with low back pain
that just wouldn't go away. 

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Despite trying everything from 
physical therapy, the 

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chiropractic work, and various 
other treatments, It was the one

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physical problem I couldn't seem
to solve and it was taking a 

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toll in my life. 
Then I learned about an 8 week 

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clinical study at Mass General 
Hospital that investigated the 

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role of self compassion in 
alleviating lower back pain. 

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Curious and somewhat skeptical, 
I enrolled in the study and 

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attended A1 Day Workshop on Self
compassion, not knowing what to 

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expect. 
The workshop was led by two 

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incredible individuals, doctors 
Chris Germer and Kristen Neff, 

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pioneers in the field of self 
compassion. 

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To my surprise, the path to 
healing began with simple acts 

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of being kinder and gentler to 
myself. 

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Every day I listen to Chris's 
recordings, which encouraged me 

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to say soothing and nourishing 
phrases to myself, like may I 

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know that I am safe and may I 
know that I'm doing the best 

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under these circumstances, and 
may I know that I'm a good man. 

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As the weeks went by, the pain 
began to dissolve and I felt a 

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deep transformation taking place
within me. 

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It was incredible how 
acknowledging and embracing my 

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own humanity, flaws and 
vulnerabilities played a pivotal

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role in my recovery. 
Gradually I returned my old self

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motivated, optimistic and 
physically active. 

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Now, years later, I have the 
privilege of talking with Doctor

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Chris Germer, who's a world 
leading authority on self 

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compassion. 
Chris is also a licensed 

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psychotherapist who practices 
mindfulness and compassion based

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therapy in Arlington, MA. 
He's also a part time lecturer 

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on Psychiatry at Harvard Medical
School and a founding faculty 

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member of the Institute for 
Meditation and Psychotherapy and

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of the Center for Mindfulness 
and Compassion. 

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His books include The Mindful 
Path to Self, Compassion, Wisdom

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and Compassion in Psychotherapy 
and Mindfulness in 

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Psychotherapy, Doctor Germer 
lectures and leads workshops 

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internationally, and you can 
find more of his work on this 

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website at www.chrisgermer.com. 
In this conversation, Chris and 

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I delve into the science behind 
self compassion, address some 

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common misconceptions, 
understand its applications 

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beyond physical pain, and 
explore how it can positively 

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impact our mental and emotional 
wellbeing. 

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So without further ado, let's 
welcome our esteemed guest and 

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explore the world of self 
compassion. 

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Chris Germer, welcome to 
curiously. 

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Thanks. 
It's great to be here. 

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So yeah, I really appreciate you
coming on to talk about the 

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field of self compassion. 
You're an expert in that field. 

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And I figured before we start 
unpacking this subject a bit 

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more, if we could just kind of 
start off with some key terms 

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and defining some words that 
will be helpful in our journey 

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and exploring self compassion. 
So how do you? 

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Define self compassion first. 
Sure. 

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So we could say there's an 
informal definition and there's 

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a formal definition. 
The informal definition, which I

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might share with somebody over a
cup of coffee, is when we 

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suffer, treating ourselves with 
the same kindness and 

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understanding as we would treat 
a good friend. 

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And this isn't something we 
ordinarily do. 

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Usually people are much more 
compassionate toward others than

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toward themselves. 
And when we suffer or fail or 

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feel inadequate, we usually beat
up on ourselves. 

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We isolate ourselves in shame, 
and we also kind of ruminate. 

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So treating ourselves with the 
same kindness and understanding 

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as we treat a good friend, 
that's the. 

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Informal definition. 
And it's also helpful, by the 

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way, if you want to be more self
compassionate, to just ask 

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yourself when things go wrong, 
how would I treat a good friend 

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right now? 
And inevitably it's a little 

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different than what we might be 
doing in that moment. 

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And then seeing if we could 
actually talk to ourselves in 

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the same tone. 
If we could take ourselves for a

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walk, if we could prepare some 
healthy food, if we could listen

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to some good music rather than 
beating up on ourselves. 

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So it's not only a definition, 
but it's even a guide or a 

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prescription. 
So that's the informal 

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definition. 
The formal definition was 

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created by Kristin Neff, my dear
friend and colleague, back in 

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2003 and she is a research 
psychologist and. 

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She defines self compassion for 
the research as having three 

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components. 
One is mindfulness, or knowing 

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what we're feeling while we're 
feeling it, particularly knowing

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that we're suffering when we're 
suffering. 

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Part 2 is common humanity, which
is a kind of awareness that when

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things go wrong in our lives, 
that this is part of the human 

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condition, then we're not being 
singled out necessarily. 

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That's really important. 
To stay connected with others in

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order to be self compassionate. 
And then the third part is self 

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kindness. 
And that's really the part that 

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most people think about when 
they think about self 

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compassion. 
They think about being kind to 

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ourselves. 
But actually self compassion is 

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all three. 
We need to be aware of what's 

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going on, we need to feel 
connected and we need to be kind

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to ourselves. 
And then when all those three 

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things come together, makes a 
big difference in our lives. 

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Why don't you think we act this 
way toward ourselves anyway? 

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Like, why is it that we seem to 
have a bias toward self judgment

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or harshness toward ourselves 
versus the way we seem to 

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automatically act with a friend,
which is the opposite? 

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Is there an understanding of why
that is? 

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Yeah, so there isn't a 
scientific understanding every 

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that question often comes up 
and. 

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The answer is probably more 
opinion or conjecture. 

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So I can give you my opinion and
it's really twofold. 

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One is culturally we are really 
discouraged to be kind to 

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ourselves when we suffer and you
know, we hear things like, you 

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know, don't be so full of 
yourself, think about others and

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so forth. 
So we're really strongly 

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encouraged. 
Culturally, and this is in every

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single culture that I've visited
around the world, and I've been 

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teaching self compassion on 
every continent. 

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You know, most cultures really 
have a bias toward compassion 

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toward others and attempt to 
block or exclude ourselves from 

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the circle of compassion. 
And that certainly occurs at our

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own peril, as we can talk about 
later. 

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But the other thing, Dustin, is 
that the answer might be purely 

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physiological. 
So when we feel threatened, the 

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body goes in fight, flight or 
freeze, and that's when we're 

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threatened from the outside, in 
particular physically. 

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But when we're threatened from 
the inside, the same kind of 

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Physiology occurs when we feel 
bad about ourselves or we 

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criticize ourselves. 
The same Physiology occurs. 

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If we have shame, the same 
Physiology occurs. 

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We feel threatened and then 
instead of fight, we turn it on 

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ourselves into self criticism. 
Instead of flight, we flee from 

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ourselves. 
We abandon ourselves. 

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We lose a sense of common 
humanity and instead of freeze, 

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physically freezing like a deer 
in the headlights. 

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We get stuck in our heads and we
just ruminate, you know, we kind

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of get frozen and thinking, 
thinking, thinking, thinking. 

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So we could say that the 
opposite of self compassion, 

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which is self criticism, 
isolation and rumination, is 

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pretty closely allied with the 
physiological threat state 

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turned against ourselves. 
And that suggests the reason for

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the benefits then, right? 
Yeah, that's a great. 

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Observation. 
We sort of this harshness toward

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ourselves is is a threat. 
It's a psychological activation 

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of the fight or flight. 
And now is the opposite at play 

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when we're being kinder or 
gentler with ourselves. 

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Yeah, So there appears to be a 
Physiology of compassion, A 

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Physiology of care and 
connection and self compassion 

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is all about care and 
connection. 

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Connection with our selves and. 
Caring for ourselves. 

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And so the Physiology of care 
and connection seems to be kind 

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of anchored in the hormones of 
oxytocin, which is the love 

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hormone and the endorphins, 
which is kind of a feel good 

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hormone, whereas the Physiology 
of threat seems to be more 

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linked to adrenaline and 
cortisol. 

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So if we can actually shift. 
Our Physiology in that way, from

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cortisol and adrenaline to 
oxytocin and the endorphins, we 

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have a much better chance of 
actually treating ourselves 

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psychologically and emotionally 
in a kinder way. 

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And there are some people 
actually doing work like this. 

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I have a colleague named Ina 
Kazan who does biofeedback for 

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what's called heart rate 
variability, which is. 

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A measure of safety and 
connection. 

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And she's doing a study now 
where she's teaching people how 

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to shift their Physiology using 
biofeedback and seeing whether 

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that actually increases A 
person's ability to learn self 

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compassion. 
So shifting the foundation, the 

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physiological foundation. 
Can you share maybe an example 

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of what someone who's suffering 
or struggling may actually say 

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or do? 
To themselves when they're in a 

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period of of struggle in order 
to activate these these 

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benefits, to practice self 
compassion. 

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Sure, yeah. 
So there are many different, you

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know, pathways to self 
compassion. 

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One of the simplest ones, which 
actually the research shows 

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decreases cortisol, is to put a 
hand over one's heart, like 

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physically to feel the touch and
the warmth of your hand. 

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In the chest region, and even if
you wish, making gentle, you 

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know, gently massaging one's 
chest or making little circles 

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or back and forth movements. 
So the physical experience of 

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touching or gently massaging our
chest decreases the stress 

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hormone cortisol, and it's easy 
to imagine this. 

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You don't have to imagine, you 
can just do it. 

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But also this is the kind of 
thing we might do. 

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With a young child who is, you 
know, suffering, you know, a 

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parent by just sort of gently 
rub the child's chest and has 

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enormous impact. 
So we can actually do this for 

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ourselves. 
So that's a pathway to 

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experiencing self compassion, 
particularly a physiological 

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change through touch. 
But there are other things you 

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can do. 
For example, right now as you're

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listening, if you were thinking 
of a problem in your life, you 

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know, maybe. 
Physical problem or relationship

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problem. 
And then you know, inevitably 

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you would be ruminating about 
it, having cranky thoughts. 

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But if you imagine that a person
who really loves you and knows 

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you were to walk into your room 
right now and where to say 

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something to you that you really
need to hear, and that would 

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make your heart rest, it might 
make you say thanks, I needed 

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that. 
What would those words be? 

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In other words, what words would
land really well for you when 

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you're struggling? 
So you can actually ask yourself

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that you know if something bad 
happens, you can ask yourself, 

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what do I really need to hear 
right now? 

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So you might just think the 
words like I love you or I 

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believe in you or I trust you or
you've got it you you've got 

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this or or or. 
You're trying your best and. 

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You're you're trying your best. 
You know and and it's enough. 

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You are enough. 
Words like this are such a 

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comfort when we feel like we've 
failed or we feel overwhelmed. 

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So those are two pathways, touch
and voice. 

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But there are probably umpteen 
other pathways. 

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And there are also daily 
practices. 

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The thing I wanted to say before
too is that this is really like 

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a gives credence to the my body 
connection. 

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It it really is a practice that.
Activates physiological 

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mechanisms through the power of 
one's thoughts and perspective. 

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Yes. 
And that's really amazing. 

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To think hand over the heart or 
saying you're good enough in 

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your imagination changes the 
levels of actual chemicals in 

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your body and causing a 
behavioral change. 

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That's wonderful. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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Well, the mind and the body are 
very linked right now. 

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If you were to think about 
something horrible, you know, 

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like think about war in Ukraine 
and think about it in detail, 

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your system is going to amp 
right up, you know, and during 

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the pandemic, I mean everybody 
was their systems were amped up.

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So what we think about has a 
huge impact on the body. 

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And this is sort of providing it
an intervention. 

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Of sorts, it's taking control, 
taking reins. 

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And so if you're in the moment, 
if you're struggling, you can 

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provide yourself comforting 
touch or say soothing or 

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comforting words. 
But there are also practices 

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that you've written about in 
your books, and I'm sure you've 

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done in workshops that you give.
What are some of those daily 

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practices that people can do and
to help practice self 

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compassion? 
Yeah. 

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So just to give you a sense of 
the whole spectrum. 

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So there are formal practices 
which you're talking about, 

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which is like sitting down for 
20 minutes of self compassion 

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meditation. 
And then there are informal 

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practices, which is when we 
experience stress in daily life,

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we do something right then and 
there, sort of on the spot in a 

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minute. 
Type things and these are mind 

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training practices. 
And then there is also 

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behavioral practices like how 
would you treat a friend? 

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Maybe you'd go and listen to 
music together. 

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Well, can you put on some music?
So that's behavioral so. 

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But what you're asking about 
right now, Dustin, is mind 

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training practices that are 
formal mind training practices. 

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So like meditation. 
So one meditation which is 

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really quite simple, which is? 
Similar to breath meditation, 

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which probably many of your 
listeners are familiar with, is 

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called affectionate breathing. 
So in affectionate breathing, 

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we're meditation. 
We're not just paying attention 

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or noticing the breath going in 
and out of the body, We're 

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actually feeling the gentle 
rhythm of the breath. 

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In particular, the way the 
breath is internally caressing 

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us, internally comforting and 
soothing us by its gentle 

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rhythm. 
And this is a very interesting 

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shift. 
For example, many people don't 

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like meditation because they say
I can't concentrate because they

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think there's just supposed to 
be focusing on the breath. 

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But if you think about the 
practice differently, it's still

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about the breath. 
But. 

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Imagine you're not doing the 
meditating. 

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Imagine your body is continually
and rhythmically rocking you 

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from the inside, and all you 
need to do for meditation is to 

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feel the rhythm and allow 
yourself to be internally rocked

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and caressed by your breathing. 
And when your mind wanders, it 

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doesn't mean you've failed in 
concentration, It means you've 

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just missed the chance to be 
rocked and caressed by your own 

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breathing. 
And this really changes the 

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whole context of meditation from
work where you kind of want to 

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build concentration and focus, 
to a self compassion practice 

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where you are actually being 
nourished from the inside. 

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So that's one formal meditation 
practice. 

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There are quite a number of 
other ones, but they all have a 

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similar intention, which is to 
shift our attitude, shift the 

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internal tone, you know, from 
coldness to warmth, and to give 

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us a sense of being connected 
with ourselves in an 

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affectionate and friendly way. 
Rather than in opposition to 

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ourselves. 
Yeah, I I think this is a good 

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spot to maybe address some 
common objections people may 

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have. 
Because I think what you're 

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saying is obviously we'll talk a
little bit about the research 

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that has been done in this 
field, the explosion of research

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in that a lot of what you're 
saying is evidence based. 

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And yet still whatever those 
forces are, whether they're 

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cultural or personal, I can 
hear. 

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People in my life saying 
nourishment, like soothing 

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words, affectionate breathing, 
like come on like what is this 

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stuff? 
It's it's too soft. 

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You know, it's And then that's 
sort of harsh way of putting it.

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But others may just think I'm 
not really allowed to be kind to

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myself. 
You know, others may think like.

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Being harsh and self critical is
the path to achievement, you 

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know? 
Sure. 

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So how do you deal with that? 
What I imagine are very common 

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objections that these people 
have? 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, so there are four or five 

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he objections. 
Misunderstandings really because

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the research really shows that 
these misgivings are 

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misunderstandings are 
misconceptions, you know? 

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But first of all, Dustin, when 
people hear the term self 

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compassion, they're like. 
To cringe because self makes 

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them think, oh boy, that's 
selfishness. 

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Why would I want to practice 
self compassion? 

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Because then I'll be more 
selfish. 

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That's one worry. 
The research shows the opposite.

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And then the other is the word 
compassion, you know? 

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I mean, compassion is it's 
associated with weakness, you 

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00:19:07,550 --> 00:19:10,420
know? 
Martin Luther King said many 

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times that love and compassion 
are actually a strength of 

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force, you know, particularly 
when put into action as he did. 

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But compassion is often 
associated with tenderness. 

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And when people hear about 
compassion and growing and 

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00:19:24,340 --> 00:19:26,740
compassion, they just think, oh 
boy, I've got enough of that 

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00:19:26,740 --> 00:19:29,380
already. 
It's just going to make me more 

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vulnerable or more sensitive, 
you know. 

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00:19:31,700 --> 00:19:35,100
So those are two just the term 
self compassion freaks people 

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out. 
So first of all, I, I you think 

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it's better often to call it 
inner compassion, You know, 

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because compassion is internal 
and external and we just don't 

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want to exclude ourselves. 
So there's that. 

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But the main misgivings, what 
number one is selfishness. 

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But the research shows that 
those who grow in self 

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00:19:55,860 --> 00:19:59,540
compassion are actually become 
more compassionate toward others

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00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:02,520
and. 
In relationships highly self 

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00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,640
compassionate people tend to be 
more accommodating, less 

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aggressive and so forth. 
So self compassion practice will

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make you less selfish not more. 
Another concern is weakness. 

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Like I said before, some people 
think compassion is weak. 

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00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,880
But what we've learned about 
self compassion, In fact, the 

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00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:27,060
5000 articles on self compassion
show much of the same thing, 

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00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:30,860
which is that self compassion is
an internal resource or strength

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00:20:30,860 --> 00:20:35,500
or skill that supports emotional
resilience. 

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So for example in the research 
people who are highly self 

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compassionate and they 
experience divorce or severe 

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00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:48,740
illness or war trauma, they're 
way more likely to bounce back 

340
00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:53,660
and to cope and to not get post 
traumatic stress disorder. 

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00:20:54,620 --> 00:20:58,500
So it's actually a strength 
rather than a weakness. 

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00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:02,780
Another concern, big concern 
people have is that, and you 

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00:21:02,780 --> 00:21:06,500
alluded to it as well Dustin, is
that it will decrease our 

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00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:08,340
motivation. 
You know, we think that being 

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critical of ourselves actually 
motivates us. 

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And the research interestingly 
shows that people who are high 

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00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:20,120
in self compassion are more 
motivated to reach their goals, 

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00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,680
not less. 
And the reason is pretty obvious

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because when you are self 
compassionate, you motivate 

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yourself with encouragement and 
kindness rather than with 

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00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,160
criticism. 
So anybody who's had an athletic

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00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,600
coach, for example, if your 
coach said, you know, wow, you 

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00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,400
know, you're not doing very well
today, you know what's the 

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00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,560
matter with you? 
I mean, you're you're weak. 

355
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,720
It's not going to motivate us to
do much. 

356
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,160
You know, We'll just want to 
say, you know, I'm out of here. 

357
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So I have a a trainer, a young 
gym trainer who I was doing 

358
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:03,320
pushups and I collapsed and his 
response was excellent. 

359
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,680
Chris working to the point of 
failure and I completely 

360
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,760
reframed it. 
I was thinking, damn, I'm too 

361
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,760
weak. 
I I couldn't produce enough 

362
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,370
pushups and he was saying no, 
no, no, this is great, you know 

363
00:22:15,370 --> 00:22:18,130
you're really you're you're 
working up to the edge of your 

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00:22:18,130 --> 00:22:19,730
capacity. 
I really appreciate that. 

365
00:22:20,090 --> 00:22:22,450
That's called motivating and 
what's the difference? 

366
00:22:22,730 --> 00:22:26,690
Difference is attitude. 
So when our internal attitude is

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00:22:26,690 --> 00:22:30,850
encouraging and is warm, we're 
actually more motivated to 

368
00:22:30,850 --> 00:22:33,050
achieve our goals and the 
research shows that. 

369
00:22:33,530 --> 00:22:35,090
And then there are some other 
concerns. 

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00:22:35,090 --> 00:22:37,890
One is that it's going to make 
us self indulgent that we're 

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00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:41,610
going to, you know, just lie 
around and eat bonbons and watch

372
00:22:41,690 --> 00:22:44,430
TV. 
And quite the contrary, people 

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00:22:44,430 --> 00:22:47,750
who are high in self compassion,
they're they have healthier 

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00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:51,630
lifestyles, they exercise more, 
they eat less, they drink less, 

375
00:22:52,030 --> 00:22:56,630
things like that. 
And perhaps the last of the main

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00:22:56,790 --> 00:23:01,270
misgivings is self pity. 
People think oh if I become self

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00:23:01,270 --> 00:23:03,710
compassionate and then something
goes wrong, I'm just going to be

378
00:23:04,030 --> 00:23:07,830
kind of curl up into a little 
ball and be you know, just feels

379
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:11,830
feel bad for myself. 
You know, I won't be able to 

380
00:23:12,270 --> 00:23:14,230
step out. 
I'm going to just be you know, 

381
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:17,150
full of self pity. 
And the research shows that 

382
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:21,550
actually people who are self 
compassionate ruminate less. 

383
00:23:21,630 --> 00:23:24,110
They have less self pity, not 
more. 

384
00:23:24,790 --> 00:23:28,350
They're more likely to have 
perspective on their problems 

385
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because they have this common 
humanity aspect. 

386
00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:35,310
So in a nutshell, Dustin, all 
the misgivings that people have,

387
00:23:35,710 --> 00:23:38,550
the research shows not just that
it's not. 

388
00:23:38,550 --> 00:23:41,860
So the research shows the 
opposite. 

389
00:23:42,380 --> 00:23:44,820
Yeah. 
And talk about the research a 

390
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:46,540
little bit. 
You know, what have the last 

391
00:23:46,540 --> 00:23:51,300
couple decades or or more shown?
And I understand there's been 

392
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:55,060
somewhat of a explosion and 
research in this area. 

393
00:23:55,620 --> 00:23:58,580
And who's doing that work? 
Where is it being done? 

394
00:23:58,580 --> 00:24:01,460
How did it get going? 
And and maybe most importantly, 

395
00:24:01,540 --> 00:24:05,300
why isn't it more mainstream 
like given given the amount of 

396
00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:08,880
work going on? 
Yeah, those are all great 

397
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:14,160
questions. 
So back in 2003, there was one 

398
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,760
research article in the academic
literature and that was Kristin 

399
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,680
Neff's conceptual article. 
And after soon after came her 

400
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,160
her scale to measure self 
compassion. 

401
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,680
So she defined it and measured 
it 20 years ago. 

402
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,660
And that's when the field 
basically began. 

403
00:24:31,060 --> 00:24:34,580
That doesn't mean that self 
compassion wasn't understood 

404
00:24:34,580 --> 00:24:37,460
prior to that. 
You know it Many people, 

405
00:24:37,460 --> 00:24:40,380
particularly in the Buddhist 
world, understood that 

406
00:24:40,380 --> 00:24:42,940
compassion goes in all 
directions and you don't want to

407
00:24:42,940 --> 00:24:46,220
exclude yourself. 
In fact, by including yourself, 

408
00:24:46,220 --> 00:24:48,580
you will increase your 
compassion for others. 

409
00:24:48,820 --> 00:24:52,340
So it wasn't a new idea, but in 
the research, it started with 

410
00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:57,660
Kristen's work in 2003. 
And yeah, as I mentioned there, 

411
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,840
well over 5000 articles now and 
almost every day new articles 

412
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,080
come out in the research 
literature. 

413
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,880
But I have to say that recently 
I it hasn't been super 

414
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,080
interesting because, you know, 
just about every article shows 

415
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,160
that self compassion is good for
you. 

416
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,000
In fact, there's a professor at 
Duke University, Mark Leary, who

417
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,480
who said even 10 years ago that 
the research is getting a bit 

418
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,310
boring for this reason. 
You know, because self 

419
00:25:27,310 --> 00:25:31,510
compassion is associated with 
just about every measure of 

420
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:37,430
mental well-being and inversely 
related to distress. 

421
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:41,230
So self compassion is associated
with, you know, really diverse 

422
00:25:41,230 --> 00:25:46,190
things like wisdom, optimism. 
I mentioned, you know, 

423
00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:50,510
psychological resilience, so 
many different measures, 

424
00:25:50,510 --> 00:25:55,140
anything you can think of. 
Grit is a big one nowadays, and 

425
00:25:55,140 --> 00:25:59,660
it decreases in stress and 
anxiety and depression, and it 

426
00:25:59,660 --> 00:26:04,980
decreases in suicidality. 
The research basically is 

427
00:26:05,220 --> 00:26:07,340
uniformly positive for self 
compassion. 

428
00:26:08,260 --> 00:26:12,540
So what's happening now? 
In the research, initially, it 

429
00:26:12,540 --> 00:26:17,540
was mostly just seeing okay. 
What can we say about people who

430
00:26:17,540 --> 00:26:20,740
score high on Kristen's self 
compassion scale? 

431
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:23,940
But now we're discovering and 
learning? 

432
00:26:23,940 --> 00:26:28,860
Actually, what happens when we 
teach self compassion to people?

433
00:26:28,860 --> 00:26:33,220
Can we increase the amount of 
self compassion that they have? 

434
00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:36,340
So it was actually for this 
reason that Kristen and I 

435
00:26:36,340 --> 00:26:39,380
created the eight week Mindful 
Self Compassion Training Program

436
00:26:39,380 --> 00:26:45,820
in 2010 to move out of simply 
correlational research into what

437
00:26:45,820 --> 00:26:50,260
happens when we teach. 
And indeed most of these 

438
00:26:50,620 --> 00:26:54,580
measures of positive mental 
health increase when people 

439
00:26:54,580 --> 00:26:57,780
learn self compassion. 
So the research is doing a 

440
00:26:57,780 --> 00:27:00,700
number of things. 
It's just it's going into new 

441
00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:04,820
areas. 
So for example, with specialized

442
00:27:04,820 --> 00:27:09,020
populations such as diabetes or 
right now there's some research 

443
00:27:09,020 --> 00:27:13,260
going on in quality of life for 
people with cancer, many 

444
00:27:13,260 --> 00:27:16,140
different projects. 
I could could, I could spend all

445
00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:20,770
day answering that question. 
But what I think is most helpful

446
00:27:20,770 --> 00:27:24,250
going forward, and I I hope that
this work is actually happening,

447
00:27:24,250 --> 00:27:28,610
is can we bring self compassion 
to underrepresented populations 

448
00:27:28,610 --> 00:27:32,490
or populations which don't 
usually have access to training 

449
00:27:32,530 --> 00:27:35,610
like this? 
And particularly populations 

450
00:27:35,610 --> 00:27:40,250
that are marginalized or 
oppressed who have been taught 

451
00:27:40,330 --> 00:27:43,690
culturally and societally to 
feel shame. 

452
00:27:44,610 --> 00:27:49,270
Self compassion is a really 
powerful antidote to shame. 

453
00:27:49,790 --> 00:27:53,310
So I would love to see self 
compassion going to marginalized

454
00:27:53,310 --> 00:27:55,190
communities. 
And I also like to see self 

455
00:27:55,190 --> 00:28:00,190
compassion going into the 
workplace where there's a lot of

456
00:28:00,190 --> 00:28:02,030
suffering. 
You know, you can't talk about 

457
00:28:02,030 --> 00:28:05,350
it in the workplace, but there 
is, and there have been efforts 

458
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:09,270
to do that. 
And generally speaking, women 

459
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:13,030
tend to prefer self compassion 
more than men. 

460
00:28:13,030 --> 00:28:18,040
Men are really caught up a lot 
in these misconceptions that we 

461
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,840
were talking about a moment ago.
And so for self compassion to go

462
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,960
really mainstream, like you were
saying, why hasn't it gone 

463
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,200
mainstream yet? 
5000 articles has been 20 years,

464
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,720
Why isn't it mainstream? 
I think the main reason is the 

465
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,000
misconceptions actually, and in 
particular I think 

466
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:42,280
misconceptions that men have. 
A lot of the research is now 

467
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,640
being actually conducted by 
women. 

468
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:51,440
So in order to have a broader 
reach, I think we need to reach 

469
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,520
men as well. 
Men need to see that self 

470
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,680
compassion will make them, as 
the research shows, better 

471
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,120
leaders, that self compassion 
will make their relationships, 

472
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,320
their intimate relationships, 
easier and better. 

473
00:29:08,910 --> 00:29:15,390
Men need to see the benefit of 
self compassion, and so that 

474
00:29:15,390 --> 00:29:18,070
might take a little longer, but 
you know it's starting to 

475
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:20,950
happen. 
Is there a just to continue with

476
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:24,950
that for a second is is there a 
an example of maybe a man from 

477
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:30,710
your workshops or in the book or
in your practice who was really 

478
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:36,710
skeptical or was really attached
to these misconceptions and yet?

479
00:29:37,310 --> 00:29:41,390
Through their work were able to 
increase wellbeing, deal with 

480
00:29:41,390 --> 00:29:46,030
pain, become more resilient. 
Was there like a guy who was 

481
00:29:46,030 --> 00:29:50,790
really hard and came in and and 
and and and figured out how to 

482
00:29:50,790 --> 00:29:52,590
be a little kinder, a little 
gentler? 

483
00:29:52,590 --> 00:29:56,230
And it actually worked because I
I do think maybe men in 

484
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:59,630
particular kind of have to be a 
little more practical. 

485
00:29:59,630 --> 00:30:02,830
Like, you have to really get us 
to do it and feel it, and then 

486
00:30:02,830 --> 00:30:04,990
we'll we'll buy it. 
Well, yeah. 

487
00:30:04,990 --> 00:30:09,470
I mean, so once somebody comes 
through the door, they're 

488
00:30:09,470 --> 00:30:14,350
already open minded, right? 
So the reason why men I, I 

489
00:30:14,350 --> 00:30:18,310
think, haven't quite adopted as 
much as women is because they 

490
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:20,470
don't know about it. 
They don't know what it is, you 

491
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:22,350
know? 
But what gets men through the 

492
00:30:22,350 --> 00:30:25,790
door? 
Often desperation. 

493
00:30:26,110 --> 00:30:29,870
There's a thing called the gift 
of desperation or creative 

494
00:30:29,870 --> 00:30:35,010
hopelessness. 
And both you and I, Dustin, I 

495
00:30:35,010 --> 00:30:38,770
think, and we are men. 
We have personal stories. 

496
00:30:38,770 --> 00:30:43,290
You know, For me, I suffered for
20 years from public speaking 

497
00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:47,330
anxiety and in desperation I 
learned self compassion 

498
00:30:47,690 --> 00:30:52,410
meditation. 
And it within four months this 

499
00:30:52,410 --> 00:30:55,850
public speaking anxiety 
disappeared And that's actually 

500
00:30:55,850 --> 00:31:00,890
what turned my career. 
It was in 2006. 

501
00:31:01,860 --> 00:31:06,900
From being more focused on 
mindfulness and psychotherapy, I

502
00:31:07,020 --> 00:31:09,100
became interested in self 
compassion, which I've been 

503
00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:12,420
doing ever since because it's so
profoundly transformative. 

504
00:31:12,420 --> 00:31:16,340
But this arose out of duress. 
I don't know, Dustin, if you'd 

505
00:31:16,340 --> 00:31:18,460
be willing to share a little of 
your own experience. 

506
00:31:18,620 --> 00:31:21,060
Yeah, of course. 
And thanks for sharing your 

507
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:24,770
story too. 
I mean, the reason why we had 

508
00:31:24,770 --> 00:31:28,330
met is because I think it was 
seven years ago, I was 

509
00:31:28,330 --> 00:31:31,530
experiencing some low back pain,
not some. 

510
00:31:31,530 --> 00:31:33,250
It it was, it had turned 
chronic. 

511
00:31:33,250 --> 00:31:35,290
It had been lasting for six to 
eight months or so. 

512
00:31:35,810 --> 00:31:38,850
And talk about self judgment, 
right? 

513
00:31:38,890 --> 00:31:42,610
I was really beating myself up. 
You know, this was a problem of 

514
00:31:42,610 --> 00:31:47,130
physical pain syndrome that I 
could not solve and I threw 

515
00:31:47,130 --> 00:31:51,650
everything at it from physical 
therapy to psychotherapy to 

516
00:31:51,890 --> 00:31:55,770
pills. 
Topical solutions, Every type of

517
00:31:55,770 --> 00:31:58,130
like ergonomic solution you can 
imagine, right? 

518
00:31:58,450 --> 00:32:03,570
And I read books and what is 
going on and I started to just 

519
00:32:04,050 --> 00:32:07,730
get into the spiral of beating 
myself up for not being able to 

520
00:32:07,730 --> 00:32:11,330
solve this chronic low back pain
issue. 

521
00:32:11,690 --> 00:32:16,970
And then I saw a study at MGH 
that you and Kristen were. 

522
00:32:17,290 --> 00:32:21,170
Part of was a study on how self 
compassion I believe can 

523
00:32:21,370 --> 00:32:26,490
influence chronic back pain and 
I signed up and your 

524
00:32:26,490 --> 00:32:30,330
intervention was a I think a 
sort of a day long workshop 

525
00:32:30,370 --> 00:32:33,290
where we learned what self 
compassion was. 

526
00:32:33,650 --> 00:32:37,250
We practiced some of your 
practices and then we made-up 

527
00:32:37,250 --> 00:32:41,130
our own sayings to ourself 
things we could say to ourselves

528
00:32:41,530 --> 00:32:46,410
to increase self compassion. 
And over the period of think 8 

529
00:32:46,410 --> 00:32:50,550
weeks, I. 
Every day listen to recordings 

530
00:32:50,830 --> 00:32:53,510
of you saying self compassionate
remarks. 

531
00:32:53,910 --> 00:32:58,190
You had a three, five and 15 
minute recording and like I 

532
00:32:58,190 --> 00:33:02,030
said, I'd thrown everything at 
this problem and I'm quite 

533
00:33:02,030 --> 00:33:06,870
certain that you're on Kristen's
workshop and practices had a 

534
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:10,750
really strong effect on lowering
my low back pain. 

535
00:33:11,270 --> 00:33:14,630
And then within a year it was 
gone and it has never come back 

536
00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:18,490
and I. 
Even still, to this day can find

537
00:33:18,490 --> 00:33:21,410
myself skeptical about self 
compassion for all those five 

538
00:33:21,450 --> 00:33:24,330
main misconceptions you laid out
so nicely. 

539
00:33:24,890 --> 00:33:29,890
And it's sort of remembering to 
remember that it works and 

540
00:33:30,130 --> 00:33:32,890
picking it back up. 
And I even think some of the 

541
00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:36,690
things you shared earlier, like 
putting a hand over your heart 

542
00:33:36,690 --> 00:33:39,810
or imagining a friend coming in 
the room and saying something to

543
00:33:39,810 --> 00:33:42,090
you that is supportive or 
nourishing. 

544
00:33:42,490 --> 00:33:44,930
I'm going to bring that back in 
to my life. 

545
00:33:46,010 --> 00:33:49,330
And I was wondering, maybe since
we're on the personal, you know,

546
00:33:49,330 --> 00:33:53,810
you talked about what you did to
get better at public speaking. 

547
00:33:54,250 --> 00:33:57,650
What actually did you do? 
What were the actual concrete 

548
00:33:58,330 --> 00:33:59,650
practices? 
Yeah. 

549
00:33:59,650 --> 00:34:05,050
So for 20 years prior to that, I
had been practicing my fullness 

550
00:34:05,050 --> 00:34:08,449
meditation, mostly breath 
meditation in the traditional 

551
00:34:08,449 --> 00:34:11,370
way of just bringing your 
attention back and, you know, 

552
00:34:11,690 --> 00:34:16,239
developing concentration and 
also opening and noticing what 

553
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,239
else is in your mind. 
So I've been doing that for a 

554
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,719
long time, but I had also, I 
have a PhD in clinical 

555
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,800
psychology with a specialization
in anxiety disorder. 

556
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,920
So I was pretty aware of 
everything that the field knows 

557
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,199
about managing a problem like my
own. 

558
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:35,880
But nothing worked. 
So then four months before, I 

559
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,880
learned self compassion 
meditation. 

560
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,320
In particular, I learned loving 
kindness meditation for myself. 

561
00:34:44,469 --> 00:34:46,989
So this was interesting. 
I've never done that before 

562
00:34:46,989 --> 00:34:51,590
because I it uses words which 
have meaning, like saying 

563
00:34:51,590 --> 00:34:56,670
phrases to yourself, like may I 
feel safe, may I be healthy, may

564
00:34:56,670 --> 00:34:58,270
I live with ease, things like 
that. 

565
00:34:58,670 --> 00:35:01,430
So saying nice things to 
yourself basically. 

566
00:35:01,430 --> 00:35:03,510
And I never liked that idea too 
much. 

567
00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:07,630
I preferred just working with 
awareness and consciousness and 

568
00:35:07,630 --> 00:35:12,260
meditation. 
But I was on a meditation 

569
00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:15,980
retreat four months before a big
conference at Harvard Medical 

570
00:35:15,980 --> 00:35:19,140
School that I had Co organized 
and I knew I'd have to speak. 

571
00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:25,580
And so at this retreat, 
meditation teacher said why 

572
00:35:25,580 --> 00:35:28,540
don't you just sit on your 
cushion and love yourself. 

573
00:35:28,540 --> 00:35:31,100
In other words, just say these 
kind words to yourself. 

574
00:35:31,540 --> 00:35:36,180
And what was different about it,
Dustin, is that I did that and I

575
00:35:36,180 --> 00:35:40,330
wasn't saying these things in 
order to have less anxiety. 

576
00:35:40,330 --> 00:35:43,610
I started saying these things 
because I was kind of a broken 

577
00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:49,370
individual who really had no 
clue how to manage public 

578
00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:51,970
speaking anxiety. 
And this horrifying event was 

579
00:35:51,970 --> 00:35:54,810
coming up in four months where I
would have to stand up in front 

580
00:35:54,810 --> 00:35:59,090
of 600 people and something had 
to come out of my mouth and I 

581
00:35:59,090 --> 00:36:00,650
didn't want to be shaking like a
leaf. 

582
00:36:00,650 --> 00:36:03,810
So this was really the gift of 
desperation. 

583
00:36:03,850 --> 00:36:07,740
And here's the key part, Dustin.
I just started to love myself 

584
00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:11,260
because not in order to reduce 
anxiety, but simply because I 

585
00:36:11,260 --> 00:36:14,300
was a broken person and couldn't
do anything about it. 

586
00:36:15,180 --> 00:36:19,900
And when I did that, just open 
to kindness in this way, to kind

587
00:36:19,900 --> 00:36:23,660
words, to saying really kind 
things to myself over and over 

588
00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:27,980
and over again, like every 
morning for four months before 

589
00:36:27,980 --> 00:36:31,020
this conference. 
May I be safe. 

590
00:36:31,020 --> 00:36:32,980
May I be peaceful. 
May I be healthy. 

591
00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:36,100
May I live with these, just 
saying this over and over again.

592
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:39,540
And then whenever I thought 
about the conference, rather 

593
00:36:39,540 --> 00:36:43,780
than kind of seizing up, I would
just say, oh, may I be safe, may

594
00:36:43,780 --> 00:36:46,660
I be peaceful, may I be healthy,
May I live with these. 

595
00:36:47,420 --> 00:36:51,020
It just kind of loved myself 
like I was instructed. 

596
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:54,420
And then when the conference 
actually happened and I was 

597
00:36:54,420 --> 00:36:58,660
introduced and I got up to 
speak, I panicked like usual. 

598
00:36:58,660 --> 00:37:02,540
But there was a new voice in the
back of my mind which said, oh, 

599
00:37:02,540 --> 00:37:05,500
may it be safe, may it be 
peaceful, may it be healthy, may

600
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:08,260
you live with these. 
And it was also in that tone. 

601
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:10,100
You know, it wasn't like, may it
be safe. 

602
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:12,860
May it be, you know, like it 
wasn't combative. 

603
00:37:13,340 --> 00:37:17,020
It was just sympathetic. 
It was compassionate. 

604
00:37:17,020 --> 00:37:21,340
And it was, it had a tinge of 
what else are you going to do 

605
00:37:22,420 --> 00:37:26,370
just anyhow? 
So this new voice was there and 

606
00:37:26,370 --> 00:37:30,090
I got up and then the amazing 
thing happened is that my fear 

607
00:37:30,250 --> 00:37:36,250
disappeared and I felt this 
upsurge of excitement and love 

608
00:37:36,730 --> 00:37:38,410
and I looked out over the 
audience. 

609
00:37:38,410 --> 00:37:42,330
And usually the audience is the 
enemy when you have public 

610
00:37:42,330 --> 00:37:44,810
speaking anxiety because they 
can judge you, you know. 

611
00:37:45,330 --> 00:37:47,010
But I I just had the same 
thoughts. 

612
00:37:47,010 --> 00:37:50,570
Like, you know, in my head was, 
oh, may you be safe, may you be 

613
00:37:50,570 --> 00:37:52,210
peaceful. 
I was just looking out the 

614
00:37:52,210 --> 00:37:55,690
audience and just wishing that 
everybody would be safe, 

615
00:37:55,690 --> 00:37:57,650
peaceful, happy. 
There was just, it wasn't 

616
00:37:58,010 --> 00:38:00,010
conscious. 
It wasn't with words, but it was

617
00:38:00,010 --> 00:38:04,770
just this goodwill that I'd been
practicing for four months just 

618
00:38:04,770 --> 00:38:08,810
started to overflow and be 
directed outward because it was 

619
00:38:08,810 --> 00:38:12,690
inside, you know, it was inside.
It was directed toward me. 

620
00:38:12,690 --> 00:38:16,330
And it was just, you know, 
basically the the state of mind 

621
00:38:16,330 --> 00:38:17,890
of loving kindness and 
compassion. 

622
00:38:18,250 --> 00:38:21,210
When we're in that state of 
mind, it just flows in many 

623
00:38:21,210 --> 00:38:23,740
different directions. 
Real compassion is 

624
00:38:23,740 --> 00:38:26,620
omnidirectional. 
And so I had that experience 

625
00:38:26,620 --> 00:38:29,540
right then and there, and from 
that day onward, I've had no 

626
00:38:29,540 --> 00:38:32,740
more public speaking anxiety. 
If I have a little twinge, I'll 

627
00:38:32,740 --> 00:38:37,180
just once again repeat the 
phrases, not to make anxiety go 

628
00:38:37,180 --> 00:38:41,300
away, but just to love myself, 
because this is my Achilles 

629
00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:43,540
heel. 
This is my weakness. 

630
00:38:44,020 --> 00:38:47,540
And so when it's done in that 
spirit, it's profoundly 

631
00:38:47,540 --> 00:38:51,040
transformative. 
We actually have a the saying in

632
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,840
the Mindful Self Compassion 
Training program, what we call 

633
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,440
the central paradox which really
makes a difference whether or 

634
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,480
not people benefit from self 
compassion. 

635
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:06,240
And that is when we suffer, we 
practice not to feel better, but

636
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:12,480
simply because we feel bad. 
So it's not a slick new strategy

637
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,720
for combating what we might be 
feeling difficult emotions. 

638
00:39:17,530 --> 00:39:20,770
It's a way of loving ourselves 
in the midst of difficult 

639
00:39:21,010 --> 00:39:22,810
emotions. 
It's a way of loving ourselves 

640
00:39:22,810 --> 00:39:25,690
because we have difficult 
emotions. 

641
00:39:26,210 --> 00:39:29,610
It's like a Mama taking care of 
her child just because the child

642
00:39:29,610 --> 00:39:33,370
is suffering, not taking care in
order to drive it away, you 

643
00:39:33,370 --> 00:39:36,530
know, just spontaneous 
expression of kindness. 

644
00:39:37,010 --> 00:39:40,650
And when we do that, it changes 
our Physiology, it changes our 

645
00:39:40,650 --> 00:39:43,170
thinking, and it changes our 
behavior. 

646
00:39:43,650 --> 00:39:47,390
So in many respects, the 
practice of self compassion is, 

647
00:39:47,630 --> 00:39:50,670
there are certain lots and lots 
of techniques. 

648
00:39:50,910 --> 00:39:55,150
But as important as the 
techniques is the reason we do 

649
00:39:55,150 --> 00:39:57,230
it. 
The motivation, the attitude. 

650
00:39:57,870 --> 00:39:59,950
And that is love. 
For Love's sake. 

651
00:39:59,950 --> 00:40:03,070
Because we're broken. 
Because we're suffering. 

652
00:40:03,950 --> 00:40:08,670
Not to make ourselves into a 
better person, not to manipulate

653
00:40:08,670 --> 00:40:11,230
how we feel. 
Just to love ourselves for its 

654
00:40:11,230 --> 00:40:12,710
own sake. 
And that makes all the 

655
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:15,130
difference. 
Yeah, I think the central 

656
00:40:15,130 --> 00:40:19,890
paradox does seem to be maybe 
one of the biggest barriers 

657
00:40:20,170 --> 00:40:24,410
here, because the benefit of you
being more confident as a public

658
00:40:24,410 --> 00:40:29,170
speaker was an indirect 
byproduct of learning to love 

659
00:40:29,170 --> 00:40:31,850
yourself when you're in a very 
low place. 

660
00:40:32,370 --> 00:40:35,690
But I think we're trained to 
mostly wanna go at problems 

661
00:40:35,690 --> 00:40:38,530
directly. 
Yeah, like, how do I solve my 

662
00:40:38,530 --> 00:40:40,250
anxiety? 
Or how do I get out of this 

663
00:40:40,250 --> 00:40:42,710
depression? 
But this is really an indirect 

664
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:44,070
thing. 
It's the central paradox. 

665
00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:47,670
Yeah, and we all come by it over
time. 

666
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:53,150
So people who are listening 
right now to your podcast and 

667
00:40:53,630 --> 00:40:56,870
think, oh, self compassion might
work for me. 

668
00:40:57,070 --> 00:41:01,910
And then you read a workbook or,
you know, listen to some tapes 

669
00:41:01,910 --> 00:41:05,350
or something and start to 
practice, you know, it's quite 

670
00:41:05,350 --> 00:41:08,070
likely you'll feel a lot better 
pretty soon. 

671
00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:11,720
But. 
What happens over time is that 

672
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,880
it doesn't work and there are 
three, what we call stages of 

673
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,200
progress. 
The 1st is striving, which is I 

674
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,480
want to feel better and I want 
to be a better person or I want 

675
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,840
to, you know, improve as a 
person. 

676
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,000
The second stage is 
disillusionment, which is when 

677
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:33,040
we discover actually I'm the 
same person and I still feel bad

678
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,970
on occasion. 
But we have this little bird in 

679
00:41:35,970 --> 00:41:38,530
our head that says, yeah, but 
you felt really, really good 

680
00:41:38,530 --> 00:41:41,010
when you first learned this. 
So the second stage is 

681
00:41:41,010 --> 00:41:42,930
disillusionment. 
And disillusionment is actually 

682
00:41:42,930 --> 00:41:47,610
really a good thing because it 
begins to change our motivation.

683
00:41:48,090 --> 00:41:52,490
So when we discover this isn't 
working, then the magic can 

684
00:41:52,490 --> 00:41:57,370
occur because then we can love 
ourselves because it's not 

685
00:41:57,370 --> 00:41:59,530
working. 
We can love ourselves because 

686
00:41:59,530 --> 00:42:02,090
we're suffering. 
We can love ourselves because we

687
00:42:02,090 --> 00:42:05,480
are imperfect beings. 
As Jack Cornfield says, the 

688
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,640
purpose is not to perfect who we
are, but to perfect our love to 

689
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,480
get better at being kind to 
ourselves no matter what's going

690
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,320
on with us. 
And that brings us to the third 

691
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,320
stage, which is called radical 
acceptance, which is precisely 

692
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,360
what I described. 
You know what? 

693
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,840
What we like to say is that 
radical acceptance is being a 

694
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,800
compassionate mess. 
In other words, we're still 

695
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,120
human. 
We're still. 

696
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,880
Flawed. 
We're still uncertain. 

697
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,520
We still suffer all these 
things. 

698
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:41,320
We still experience the human, 
the range of human emotion, but 

699
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,560
we do it really compassionately.
This is the third stage. 

700
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:49,480
This is radical acceptance. 
So when we have the gift of 

701
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,200
desperation, that's actually 
disillusionment. 

702
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,240
It's like nothing worked. 
You know I'm a expert in anxiety

703
00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:58,820
disorders and nothing worked. 
I was. 

704
00:42:58,820 --> 00:43:01,660
I was actually disillusioned. 
I wasn't disillusioned with self

705
00:43:01,660 --> 00:43:05,580
compassion, but I was really 
open to just loving myself for 

706
00:43:05,580 --> 00:43:07,940
its own sake. 
And then it worked. 

707
00:43:07,940 --> 00:43:13,380
It really worked. 
And so over time we go through 

708
00:43:13,380 --> 00:43:16,460
these stages and sometimes we 
cycle through these stages again

709
00:43:16,460 --> 00:43:19,060
and again and again. 
But if you notice that you're 

710
00:43:19,060 --> 00:43:22,660
disillusioned and then you just 
love yourself for that reason, 

711
00:43:23,060 --> 00:43:24,900
bang, you're in radical 
acceptance. 

712
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,200
When you're in radical 
acceptance and you say, oh cool 

713
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,400
man, I got this down, you know, 
I am the most self compassionate

714
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,760
person in the world. 
Then immediately we're back in 

715
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,480
striving, thinking, well I just 
got to do more of this and then 

716
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,360
I'm going to be perfect. 
And then you're like no longer. 

717
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:41,880
No. 
Anyhow, the point is that we 

718
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,520
bounce in and out of these 
stages. 

719
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:48,280
But to know overall, to love 
ourselves just because we're 

720
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,080
human, in other words, to give 
ourselves permission to be a 

721
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,710
compassionate mess, is what. 
Makes all the difference. 

722
00:43:58,070 --> 00:44:01,430
You know, it's I'm thinking if 
if I were to turn it on the TV 

723
00:44:01,430 --> 00:44:06,110
and see an ad for a drug or 
something, and it said they're 

724
00:44:06,110 --> 00:44:10,110
pretty much no downsides, 
there's no side effects in all 

725
00:44:10,110 --> 00:44:11,990
of these upsides that we're 
talking about. 

726
00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:17,110
And to wellbeing and psychiatric
problems, pain problems, the 

727
00:44:17,110 --> 00:44:20,710
benefits that you've laid out, 
If there was a drug for this, I 

728
00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:23,640
mean it would be a billion 
dollar pharmaceutical. 

729
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,840
I mean doctors wouldn't be able 
to you know that. 

730
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,080
You'd be booked out for years. 
I mean, and you, you literally 

731
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,480
cured public speaking, your 
public speaking anxiety through 

732
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:34,720
self compassion. 
So. 

733
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:37,640
Once I was once. 
I was desperate. 

734
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,720
The creative hopelessness, 
That's a very interesting 

735
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:43,240
phrase. 
Or the gift of desperation, 

736
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:46,160
That's interesting. 
You know, I remember in your 

737
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,880
workshop when you were saying 
aloud some of the phrases that 

738
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,480
we could practice or that you 
said to yourself, you did say 

739
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,280
things like do you send 
nourishing phrases? 

740
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,920
May I be kind to myself? 
May I accept myself and may I 

741
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,800
know that I'm trying my best 
things like this. 

742
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,040
This was my first experience 
with it. 

743
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,880
And I thought, yeah, you know, 
that's nice that. 

744
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:10,560
I guess that's nice. 
Yeah, it is. 

745
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,640
It is. 
It's nice. 

746
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,040
You know, I was skeptical and 
there was a guy next to me who 

747
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,400
thought it was just complete, 
like, hogwash. 

748
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,840
She you should have heard what 
he said when we got on the 

749
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,600
elevator. 
He's like, this is a joke, you 

750
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,280
know? 
And and I got it. 

751
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,320
I got his perspective. 
But I was more open. 

752
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,800
I was a little bit more like I 
said to him, I said, well, 

753
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:30,560
haven't we tried everything 
else. 

754
00:45:30,990 --> 00:45:33,510
Yeah, exactly. 
So talk about being at the 

755
00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:36,230
lowest point, right. 
You know, and it's kind of 

756
00:45:36,230 --> 00:45:41,150
unfortunate that people entered 
your field through that level of

757
00:45:41,150 --> 00:45:44,750
desperation. 
But what I wanted to say is 

758
00:45:44,750 --> 00:45:47,750
another phrase that you said 
aloud was may I know that I'm a 

759
00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:51,990
good man, and I remember that 
one because it's stuck with me. 

760
00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:55,270
But I also remember that one 
because I felt like you had a 

761
00:45:55,270 --> 00:45:59,040
lot of emotion behind that one. 
Does that does that phrase mean 

762
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,000
a lot to you? 
What does it mean to be a good? 

763
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,520
Man, you know that you were very
sensitive. 

764
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,720
You picked up on that. 
Yeah. 

765
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:11,720
So, you know, when I think about
my deepest aspirations, I would 

766
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:15,440
like to be a good man. 
You know, I don't need to be, 

767
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,120
you know, rich or famous. 
I'd like to be good. 

768
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,720
And I'm a man. 
And, you know, men, particularly

769
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:24,000
now, are a bit beleaguered and 
battled. 

770
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:31,490
You know boys are in trouble. 
So the for me, being a good man 

771
00:46:31,490 --> 00:46:35,890
is really important. 
And you know, how many times 

772
00:46:35,890 --> 00:46:40,730
does somebody say to us, you 
know, you are a good man and 

773
00:46:40,730 --> 00:46:44,770
they might think it, but they 
don't necessarily put language 

774
00:46:45,330 --> 00:46:48,130
for it. 
But you know, I suspect there 

775
00:46:48,130 --> 00:46:52,250
would be a lot less political 
turmoil in this world if a lot 

776
00:46:52,250 --> 00:46:54,720
of people felt. 
Like they were good. 

777
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,800
And you know what? 
Most people are actually better 

778
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,240
than they think, You know, when 
things go wrong, they think 

779
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:04,520
they're bad, you know? 
So it is important to me to be a

780
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:05,920
good man. 
Yeah. 

781
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,400
This just occurred to me. 
There was a movie, a really 

782
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,200
great movie called Shame with 
Michael Fassbender. 

783
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:13,360
I don't know if you've ever seen
it. 

784
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:14,800
I haven't seen it. 
It's really good. 

785
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,800
It it's it's sort of a profile 
of a of a sex addict, I think. 

786
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,560
And you know, it's a man who's 
very isolated and he's a loner 

787
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:27,150
and he's really like white 
knuckling life. 

788
00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:31,430
You know, he's isolated from his
family and he watches 

789
00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:35,110
pornography all the time and and
lives the very, you know, 

790
00:47:35,150 --> 00:47:38,230
isolated existence. 
And what's interesting is that I

791
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:43,070
remember hearing an interview 
with the screenwriter and she 

792
00:47:43,070 --> 00:47:47,030
was a playwright and she said in
order to write the movie, she 

793
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:51,630
met with a group of sex addicts.
And she said the reason why she 

794
00:47:51,630 --> 00:47:55,970
titled the movie Shame is 
because that's what she felt 

795
00:47:56,010 --> 00:48:00,290
when she met with all these men.
She felt the weight of shame. 

796
00:48:00,570 --> 00:48:02,210
Yeah. 
And it's because of the trauma 

797
00:48:02,210 --> 00:48:05,570
that they had earlier in life 
and the isolation they were 

798
00:48:05,570 --> 00:48:07,290
experiencing in the weight of 
shame. 

799
00:48:07,290 --> 00:48:09,810
And it seems like self 
compassion is an antidote to 

800
00:48:09,810 --> 00:48:11,770
shame. 
Yeah, yeah. 

801
00:48:11,850 --> 00:48:15,890
Well, I think if self compassion
is nothing else, it's an 

802
00:48:15,890 --> 00:48:17,930
antidote to shame. 
And in the field of clinical 

803
00:48:17,930 --> 00:48:20,330
psychology, we've really never 
had as. 

804
00:48:20,690 --> 00:48:24,650
Targeted an intervention for 
shame as self compassion. 

805
00:48:25,290 --> 00:48:28,570
And so toward that end, some 
colleagues and I have created an

806
00:48:28,570 --> 00:48:32,050
8 week training called self 
compassion for shame. 

807
00:48:32,970 --> 00:48:36,170
So even though self compassion 
alleviates shame, the research 

808
00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:39,210
shows as people increase in self
compassion, they automatically 

809
00:48:39,210 --> 00:48:42,650
decrease in shame. 
But if we intentionally target 

810
00:48:42,650 --> 00:48:48,050
shame with self compassion, and 
we practice self compassion for 

811
00:48:48,050 --> 00:48:51,520
shame. 
In my view, self compassion goes

812
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,920
deeper. 
It goes to the very origins of 

813
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:59,240
of our personalities. 
You know, where shame first took

814
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:03,520
hold in our beings, you know? 
And so when we practice self 

815
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,080
compassion, that kind of thing 
starts getting unpacked. 

816
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,840
And it's easy to imagine because
shame is an attack on the self. 

817
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,400
It's a self attack, you know. 
Guilt is. 

818
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,040
I did something wrong. 
Shame is. 

819
00:49:17,580 --> 00:49:20,860
I am wrong. 
It's a sense of self that's 

820
00:49:20,860 --> 00:49:24,300
under attack. 
And so when we practice the 

821
00:49:24,300 --> 00:49:29,460
opposite, in other words, when 
we say may I accept myself just 

822
00:49:29,460 --> 00:49:32,140
as I am May I love myself just 
as I am may I. 

823
00:49:32,700 --> 00:49:35,860
You know, when we're kind to 
ourselves in some way, we're 

824
00:49:35,860 --> 00:49:39,180
actually giving ourselves the 
opposite message. 

825
00:49:39,700 --> 00:49:42,380
And that's just verbally. 
But behaviorally too, if we're 

826
00:49:42,380 --> 00:49:45,300
suffering and rather than being 
engulfed in shame, we start to 

827
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:49,080
treat ourselves. 
As we would like to be treated 

828
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,080
or as we would treat a good 
friend. 

829
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,280
Usually we're not shaming toward
our friends when things go 

830
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,560
wrong. 
How would it be like if we treat

831
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,720
ourselves kindly when things go 
wrong? 

832
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:01,760
Like, oh, this is really tough, 
have a cup of tea, let's take a 

833
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,560
little walk. 
You know, so everything about 

834
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,480
self compassion is actually 
reverses the shame process. 

835
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,680
But there's another point to 
this, Dustin, which is really 

836
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,120
key. 
You were you were saying 

837
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,320
earlier, you know, if this were 
a drug? 

838
00:50:16,740 --> 00:50:20,660
You could make a ton of money 
selling it in a drugstore, so 

839
00:50:20,660 --> 00:50:22,380
it's not as easy as taking a 
drug. 

840
00:50:24,060 --> 00:50:27,780
And the reason it's not as easy 
as taking a drug is because of 

841
00:50:27,780 --> 00:50:31,220
what we call Backdraft. 
And that is, if I say to myself 

842
00:50:31,220 --> 00:50:34,340
something like may I accept 
myself as I am. 

843
00:50:35,060 --> 00:50:41,060
Immediately we start to actually
think about parts of ourselves 

844
00:50:41,060 --> 00:50:45,140
that are unacceptable or ways 
that we have been treated. 

845
00:50:45,660 --> 00:50:50,540
Unacceptably in the past. 
And I suspect that that guy in 

846
00:50:50,540 --> 00:50:55,060
the elevator who you were with 
was already having backdraft 

847
00:50:55,060 --> 00:50:58,180
when he thought, oh, this is a 
crock of shit when, if you know,

848
00:50:58,180 --> 00:51:03,140
may I accept myself as I am? 
He was probably starting to feel

849
00:51:03,140 --> 00:51:06,820
bad about himself just thinking 
about that, and in particular 

850
00:51:06,820 --> 00:51:09,180
the backdraft was very likely 
shame. 

851
00:51:10,060 --> 00:51:12,780
In other words, what is shameful
about me? 

852
00:51:12,780 --> 00:51:17,580
What is unacceptable about me? 
So this comes up absolutely 

853
00:51:17,580 --> 00:51:20,340
reliably when we practice self 
compassion. 

854
00:51:20,340 --> 00:51:23,620
When we practice self 
compassion, we actually contact 

855
00:51:23,900 --> 00:51:26,980
shame. 
And when we experience shame, we

856
00:51:26,980 --> 00:51:30,060
can either go after ourselves 
with a vengeance or we can go 

857
00:51:30,060 --> 00:51:33,020
after others. 
In other words, this program is 

858
00:51:33,020 --> 00:51:36,660
a bunch of bunk, you know, very 
likely coming from shame, very 

859
00:51:36,660 --> 00:51:40,260
likely coming from backdrop, 
very likely coming from actually

860
00:51:40,260 --> 00:51:43,830
considering. 
The possibility of accepting 

861
00:51:43,830 --> 00:51:47,910
ourselves just as we are. 
But here's the good news that 

862
00:51:47,910 --> 00:51:50,870
when we start to practice self 
compassion and we have 

863
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:55,310
backdraft, we start to remember 
times when we were not treated 

864
00:51:55,310 --> 00:51:59,630
well or parts of ourselves that 
we find unacceptable. 

865
00:52:00,550 --> 00:52:04,630
We can actually be with 
ourselves and those parts of 

866
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:08,350
ourselves, and even with those 
memories that are arising, we 

867
00:52:08,350 --> 00:52:14,750
can be with old wounds. 
Now, in the present, in a loving

868
00:52:14,750 --> 00:52:20,350
and kind way, as we would have 
wished we were treated in the 

869
00:52:20,350 --> 00:52:24,990
past, we can be compassionate 
with ourselves because we are 

870
00:52:24,990 --> 00:52:30,590
adults and we know ourselves in 
a far more effective way than 

871
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:35,390
our caregivers or people in our 
culture were with us, You know, 

872
00:52:35,390 --> 00:52:39,750
we were not treated 
compassionately and mindfully. 

873
00:52:40,310 --> 00:52:42,790
Back then, therefore, we were 
wounded. 

874
00:52:42,910 --> 00:52:47,190
But when these old memories come
up, because we begin being kind 

875
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:51,310
to ourselves, we can be kind to 
ourselves in the midst of those 

876
00:52:51,310 --> 00:52:54,430
old wounds and transform those 
wounds. 

877
00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:59,590
So this is actually how self 
compassion heals. 

878
00:52:59,590 --> 00:53:02,390
It is not as easy as taking a 
pill. 

879
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,400
It's a process and there is some
pain involved. 

880
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:10,080
There are side effects, but 
these side effects when we work 

881
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:15,000
with them are actually the 
mechanism or the vehicle through

882
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:20,040
which self compassion heals. 
So one of our participants, self

883
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,920
compassion Practitioners, said 
it feels like kaboom, but it's 

884
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,520
really kaboom and the the really
fascinating thing. 

885
00:53:28,930 --> 00:53:33,530
Dustin is you know we say self 
compassion is not therapy per 

886
00:53:33,530 --> 00:53:38,010
se, but it's very therapeutic 
because if we practice self 

887
00:53:38,010 --> 00:53:43,810
compassion consistently and we 
experience old wounds over and 

888
00:53:43,810 --> 00:53:46,810
over again and we are the muscle
of self compassion is really 

889
00:53:46,810 --> 00:53:50,770
strong and we can see those old 
wounds and we can be. 

890
00:53:51,150 --> 00:53:54,510
Kind toward ourselves, 
reflective in a kind way about 

891
00:53:54,510 --> 00:53:56,590
these old wounds, they actually 
heal. 

892
00:53:56,590 --> 00:54:00,590
They get transformed. 
So we can actually reparent 

893
00:54:00,590 --> 00:54:04,670
ourselves as adults, no matter 
what happened to us in 

894
00:54:04,670 --> 00:54:08,030
childhood. 
We can reparent ourselves 

895
00:54:08,430 --> 00:54:10,510
through the power of self 
compassion. 

896
00:54:10,870 --> 00:54:12,990
And that doesn't mean we have to
do this all ourselves. 

897
00:54:12,990 --> 00:54:18,110
We can do this with a therapist.
But when we cultivate the skill 

898
00:54:18,110 --> 00:54:22,950
of being kind to ourselves, no 
matter what arises, especially 

899
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:30,230
shame, we can at some point 
actually feel like I am a good 

900
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:35,830
man, I am a good person. 
We can dismantle shame and we 

901
00:54:35,830 --> 00:54:38,910
can begin to treat ourselves 
with the same kindness and 

902
00:54:38,910 --> 00:54:43,110
understanding as we wished we 
were treated or as we might 

903
00:54:43,110 --> 00:54:47,140
treat a friend, Right. 
Yeah, that makes sense. 

904
00:54:47,140 --> 00:54:49,700
We talk about another powerful 
barrier. 

905
00:54:49,820 --> 00:54:52,460
It's Backdraft. 
It's the stuff that comes up 

906
00:54:52,740 --> 00:54:56,180
when we start, which is that 
maybe it worked for someone but 

907
00:54:56,180 --> 00:54:58,220
not me or I'm really a piece of 
crap. 

908
00:54:58,220 --> 00:55:00,860
So this isn't gonna work. 
Or, you know, this happened to 

909
00:55:00,860 --> 00:55:03,020
me in the past. 
And it's interesting too, 

910
00:55:03,020 --> 00:55:06,700
because you said one of the 
byproducts of self compassion 

911
00:55:07,100 --> 00:55:10,700
practice is perspective. 
And it seems like perspective is

912
00:55:11,060 --> 00:55:13,100
quite helpful in like, what you 
said too. 

913
00:55:13,100 --> 00:55:16,400
It's like we're adults. 
We can take a new mindset on 

914
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,520
what happened. 
One of the things I was 

915
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:24,080
wondering if you'd be up for is 
maybe just to do a quick series 

916
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:30,120
of phrases maybe like one minute
2 minute practice to let people 

917
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,480
hear how it works. 
Is yeah, there like a common 

918
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:34,880
one. 
Maybe it's just a series of 

919
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,720
phrases and and I even remember,
like, you know, listening you, 

920
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,080
you talked about the words like,
you know, using hmm or ah, 

921
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,830
whatever that I noticed that, 
yeah, this is quite helpful, 

922
00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:47,990
yeah. 
Yeah, well, we could do a a very

923
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:50,670
brief self compassion break. 
It might be more like 5 minutes.

924
00:55:50,670 --> 00:55:53,070
Do we have 5? 
Yes or yeah, of course. 

925
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:56,790
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
So we can, you know, just get 

926
00:55:56,790 --> 00:56:00,710
comfortable and and bring to 
mind a difficulty in our lives 

927
00:56:00,710 --> 00:56:04,190
right now. 
It might be a health problem or 

928
00:56:04,230 --> 00:56:06,990
a relationship problem or work 
problem. 

929
00:56:08,210 --> 00:56:12,050
I also choose one that's not too
big, kind of small, so that we 

930
00:56:12,050 --> 00:56:14,770
can stick with it, not get 
overwhelmed. 

931
00:56:15,850 --> 00:56:18,050
For example, maybe you have a 
health issue that you're going 

932
00:56:18,050 --> 00:56:21,050
to get checked out by the 
doctor, but you're not super 

933
00:56:21,050 --> 00:56:24,570
concerned about it. 
And then the first part of the 

934
00:56:24,570 --> 00:56:27,210
self compassion break is 
mindfulness. 

935
00:56:27,210 --> 00:56:30,490
And that is just to recognize, 
you know, this is difficult for 

936
00:56:30,490 --> 00:56:35,570
me just to validate that 
actually this is stressful. 

937
00:56:36,250 --> 00:56:39,430
It's a concern. 
So just validating it for 

938
00:56:39,430 --> 00:56:41,110
yourself as you would for a 
friend. 

939
00:56:41,590 --> 00:56:45,150
This is hard. 
Then the second part is common 

940
00:56:45,150 --> 00:56:49,310
humanity, and that is to 
recognize that others actually 

941
00:56:49,310 --> 00:56:53,270
in the same situation probably 
feel similarly, that this 

942
00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:59,150
particular difficulty some other
people also have, even if we 

943
00:56:59,150 --> 00:57:03,310
don't know them. 
And that stress has many forms, 

944
00:57:03,310 --> 00:57:06,350
but stress is a part of the 
human experience. 

945
00:57:07,540 --> 00:57:10,980
So just getting a sense of the 
size of the cloth, as it were, 

946
00:57:10,980 --> 00:57:17,380
that were all humans and all 
human beings struggle from time 

947
00:57:17,380 --> 00:57:21,180
to time. 
And now, if it feels right to 

948
00:57:21,180 --> 00:57:26,380
you, you can take a hand and you
can put it over your heart, or 

949
00:57:26,380 --> 00:57:30,060
you can put it on your cheek, 
where you can massage the back 

950
00:57:30,060 --> 00:57:33,740
of your neck but offer yourself 
some soothing or supportive 

951
00:57:33,740 --> 00:57:37,800
touch. 
Can even gently massage that 

952
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:42,520
part of your body. 
And again, we're doing this not 

953
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,640
to change how we feel, but just 
as a expression of sympathy. 

954
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:54,720
Because life is tough. 
And then, as we did earlier, you

955
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,640
can continue holding your hand 
on your body somewhere. 

956
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:03,920
But also imagine that a very 
loving and understanding person 

957
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:08,180
may even be somebody you know. 
Were to walk into your room 

958
00:58:08,180 --> 00:58:13,660
right now and were to say to 
you, maybe even whispering into 

959
00:58:13,660 --> 00:58:17,540
your ear, say something to you, 
that would be a great comfort 

960
00:58:18,660 --> 00:58:22,300
right now. 
And this person wouldn't be 

961
00:58:22,300 --> 00:58:26,100
denying what's happening or, you
know, just trying to cheer you 

962
00:58:26,100 --> 00:58:29,900
up, but saying something 
truthful like acknowledging, 

963
00:58:29,900 --> 00:58:33,900
yeah, this is hard, but you 
know. 

964
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,640
You'll get through this. 
Or I'm here for you. 

965
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:41,320
I love you. 
I believe in you. 

966
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:47,000
You've got what it takes. 
What words might allow your 

967
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,560
heart to rest just a little bit 
more. 

968
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,920
Just a few words. 
And now I'll see if. 

969
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,920
You, at the same time, can offer
yourself some soothing touch as 

970
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:02,240
we did before, feeling your hand
on your body, and then also just

971
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,760
allowing these words and maybe 
even an image of a good friend 

972
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,760
to just roll through your mind a
bit right now. 

973
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,360
Again, we're not trying to 
manipulate how we feel. 

974
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:17,040
We're just taking a moment of 
self compassion, a moment we're 

975
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,480
just receiving for a moment a 
bit of kindness through touch 

976
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:26,230
and words. 
Just allowing the words to be 

977
00:59:26,230 --> 00:59:31,030
there and noticing what that's 
like for you. 

978
00:59:34,470 --> 00:59:38,110
OK, And so now you can release 
that practice if you like, 

979
00:59:38,190 --> 00:59:39,830
knowing you can always return to
it. 

980
00:59:40,390 --> 00:59:45,430
Three parts, one is validating. 
Second part is calm humanity. 

981
00:59:45,430 --> 00:59:49,030
Third part is some kindness. 
And you can do that anytime, 

982
00:59:49,990 --> 00:59:52,070
whenever there's any difficulty 
in your life. 

983
00:59:52,070 --> 00:59:57,920
It's called the. 
Self compassion, break and then 

984
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:03,520
if your eyes are closed, open 
your eyes And as we rejoin 

985
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,480
Dustin in our interview. 
That was nice. 

986
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,000
That was comforting. 
Reminds me. 

987
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,800
What occurred to me is how 
seldom I am doing something 

988
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:18,160
that's comforting toward myself.
You know, often pushing quite 

989
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:24,100
hard and striving, but just to 
sit and be still, it's quite 

990
01:00:24,100 --> 01:00:25,900
nice. 
And to hear about all the 

991
01:00:26,140 --> 01:00:28,620
potential benefits of self 
compassion, it's actually 

992
01:00:28,620 --> 01:00:34,900
exciting, you know, to be great 
to to get some of those benefits

993
01:00:34,900 --> 01:00:38,100
in the one's life. 
Yeah, I think that if they're 

994
01:00:38,380 --> 01:00:43,500
for me anyway, if there's like 
one inner resource, one skill 

995
01:00:44,300 --> 01:00:47,140
that we could practice, that 
would have an impact on many, 

996
01:00:47,140 --> 01:00:50,500
many, many different areas of 
our lives, the research shows 

997
01:00:50,500 --> 01:00:54,540
that this is it. 
I mean, there may be other 

998
01:00:55,020 --> 01:00:58,620
skills that we can practice that
influence all areas of our 

999
01:00:58,620 --> 01:01:01,980
lives, for example getting 
strong physically. 

1000
01:01:03,100 --> 01:01:05,300
But when it comes to 
psychological training, this is 

1001
01:01:05,300 --> 01:01:09,500
a very central resource or 
mechanism. 

1002
01:01:10,420 --> 01:01:13,740
And so if you don't have a lot 
of time and you can only learn 

1003
01:01:13,740 --> 01:01:19,940
one thing, this is a good one. 
I guess as we kind of think 

1004
01:01:19,940 --> 01:01:23,320
about coming to the end of the 
conversation, I always like to 

1005
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:29,440
broaden it as much as we can. 
And in in this subject area, it 

1006
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:33,160
seems that there is another 
barrier, there's another 

1007
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,640
headwind and you've talked about
it a little bit throughout, 

1008
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:42,360
which is the cultural barrier. 
It's it's that Western culture 

1009
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,640
doesn't necessarily promote self
compassion as a virtue. 

1010
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,280
And I think people, many people,
Americans, harbor a deep 

1011
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:56,270
suspicion about being kind to 
ourselves and what what's going 

1012
01:01:56,270 --> 01:01:58,910
on? 
Maybe we think about the US or 

1013
01:01:58,910 --> 01:02:01,630
just the West in general. 
What don't we get about this? 

1014
01:02:02,430 --> 01:02:04,430
Why we? 
Why we? 

1015
01:02:04,870 --> 01:02:07,590
Yeah. 
Well, it's not just the US. 

1016
01:02:08,830 --> 01:02:11,830
There are differences between 
cultures. 

1017
01:02:12,390 --> 01:02:17,750
Kristin Neff did a study in 
Taiwan, Thailand and the US and.

1018
01:02:18,540 --> 01:02:22,660
Found that people in Thailand 
were a little more compassionate

1019
01:02:22,660 --> 01:02:26,380
than people in the US, who are a
little more compassionate than 

1020
01:02:26,380 --> 01:02:30,780
people in Taiwan. 
But the big difference, Dustin, 

1021
01:02:30,780 --> 01:02:34,900
is not between cultures. 
The big difference is between 

1022
01:02:34,900 --> 01:02:38,700
how we treat ourselves and how 
we treat others when things go 

1023
01:02:38,700 --> 01:02:41,940
wrong. 
That's huge everywhere. 

1024
01:02:43,190 --> 01:02:46,910
And culturally, people often 
look for explanations like why 

1025
01:02:46,910 --> 01:02:50,470
Thailand may be a little more 
than Taiwan, right? 

1026
01:02:50,910 --> 01:02:54,710
But I think this is, it's just 
speculation because personally, 

1027
01:02:54,710 --> 01:02:58,950
I've been in China and they say 
we're not compassionate with 

1028
01:02:58,950 --> 01:03:02,990
ourselves because we are 
Confucian and I've been in South

1029
01:03:02,990 --> 01:03:04,310
America. 
And they say we're not 

1030
01:03:04,310 --> 01:03:06,870
compassionate with ourselves 
because we're Catholic. 

1031
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:11,360
And I've been in Minnesota and 
they say we're not compassionate

1032
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,320
with ourselves because we're 
Lutheran. 

1033
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,800
And so every culture has its own
reason. 

1034
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:24,160
But my guess is that the bigger 
issue is how to turn it around 

1035
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,760
and include ourselves in the 
circle of compassions. 

1036
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:31,280
What I like to say is that self 
compassion is is really a humble

1037
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:35,600
enterprise where it's not about 
selfishness, it's about just 

1038
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,530
including ourselves. 
Maybe even in the bottom right 

1039
01:03:39,530 --> 01:03:44,650
corner of the picture, you know 
of of self compassion. 

1040
01:03:44,730 --> 01:03:49,250
Just adding ourselves, not 
systematically excluding 

1041
01:03:49,250 --> 01:03:52,530
ourselves. 
Because if we, if the research 

1042
01:03:52,530 --> 01:03:57,530
means anything, if we deny 
ourselves self compassion, we 

1043
01:03:57,530 --> 01:04:01,410
are making ourselves suffer 
unnecessarily. 

1044
01:04:02,090 --> 01:04:04,330
When I was reading your 
workbook, I think it's called 

1045
01:04:04,330 --> 01:04:05,970
the Mindful Self Compassion 
Workbook. 

1046
01:04:05,970 --> 01:04:08,810
Is that it? 
Yeah, There's this quote that 

1047
01:04:09,090 --> 01:04:11,810
really I found kind of 
staggering. 

1048
01:04:11,850 --> 01:04:15,610
It was from Carl Rogers. 
Carl Rogers is a psychologist or

1049
01:04:15,610 --> 01:04:18,930
psychiatrist. 
He's a psychologist, right, 

1050
01:04:18,930 --> 01:04:20,690
Right. 
So he said. 

1051
01:04:20,930 --> 01:04:25,570
The curious paradox is that the 
more I accept myself just as I 

1052
01:04:25,610 --> 01:04:28,810
am, the more I can change. 
Yeah. 

1053
01:04:29,330 --> 01:04:31,530
How do you interpret that? 
That's really staggering. 

1054
01:04:31,570 --> 01:04:35,450
It it feels very true as well. 
And yet it is a paradox. 

1055
01:04:35,450 --> 01:04:38,970
Is it? 
Yeah, so actually that quote was

1056
01:04:38,970 --> 01:04:43,530
printed slightly wrong. 
What Carl Rogers actually said 

1057
01:04:43,610 --> 01:04:46,450
was the more I accept myself 
just as I am. 

1058
01:04:46,690 --> 01:04:53,410
Change occurs on its own, change
occurs on its own and and many 

1059
01:04:53,410 --> 01:04:56,530
people notice that when they 
practice self compassion. 

1060
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:01,800
What happens is when we fight 
with ourselves, it's very hard 

1061
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:06,480
to change anything. 
But when we accept ourselves as 

1062
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:10,600
we are, then we more naturally 
change things. 

1063
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:16,320
So to give you an example, every
year in around January 1, 

1064
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:21,280
Kristen and I get a flurry of 
requests for interviews to talk 

1065
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:25,820
about New Year's resolutions. 
But one of the funny things 

1066
01:05:25,820 --> 01:05:30,700
about New Year's resolutions is 
that within three weeks 60% of 

1067
01:05:30,740 --> 01:05:33,140
people abandon their 
resolutions. 

1068
01:05:33,540 --> 01:05:38,140
Why are they abandoning them? 
It's because they are doing 

1069
01:05:38,140 --> 01:05:43,820
these things, often driven by 
shame and not accepting 

1070
01:05:43,820 --> 01:05:46,900
ourselves. 
And then when they start to 

1071
01:05:46,900 --> 01:05:49,940
fail, they beat up on themselves
even more. 

1072
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,480
The same motivation just becomes
more intense. i.e. 

1073
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:57,600
Shame. 
But if we put all self 

1074
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:01,040
improvement on the foundation of
self compassion and self 

1075
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:06,240
acceptance, then when things go 
wrong we don't necessarily give 

1076
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:08,480
up because we're not blaming 
ourselves. 

1077
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:11,840
We're not shaming ourselves. 
We get curious like, oh jeez, I 

1078
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,680
wanted to exercise more and now 
I I noticed I'm not exercising. 

1079
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:19,080
When we're really friendly with 
ourselves, we can say something 

1080
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:22,610
like. 
I wonder how I can do this, that

1081
01:06:22,610 --> 01:06:26,250
I enjoy it a little more. 
That's very different than 

1082
01:06:26,250 --> 01:06:29,330
beating up on ourselves. 
And then lo and behold, we do 

1083
01:06:29,330 --> 01:06:32,330
something and we enjoy it and 
we're, you know, after three 

1084
01:06:32,330 --> 01:06:37,530
weeks we're still exercising 
more because we are encouraging 

1085
01:06:37,530 --> 01:06:41,370
ourselves in a positive way. 
So this is self compassion. 

1086
01:06:41,370 --> 01:06:44,250
So why does change happen on its
own? 

1087
01:06:45,010 --> 01:06:48,490
Why is it more easy to change 
when we accept ourselves? 

1088
01:06:49,150 --> 01:06:56,590
Because we have a new attitude. 
My last question is, what do you

1089
01:06:56,590 --> 01:07:01,310
think our world, our society, 
civilization would look like? 

1090
01:07:01,310 --> 01:07:05,190
If we're all just kinder to 
ourselves, less critical and 

1091
01:07:05,190 --> 01:07:08,990
judgmental of ourselves, what 
would that world look like? 

1092
01:07:09,310 --> 01:07:11,990
Well, I think there's no doubt 
that generally we would have 

1093
01:07:12,390 --> 01:07:17,150
better mental health because as 
people increase in self 

1094
01:07:17,150 --> 01:07:20,370
compassion. 
Mental health gets better and 

1095
01:07:20,370 --> 01:07:23,970
better and as people decrease in
self compassion they feel more 

1096
01:07:23,970 --> 01:07:25,970
and more shame. 
And shame is associated with 

1097
01:07:25,970 --> 01:07:29,050
just about every form of mental 
distress. 

1098
01:07:29,050 --> 01:07:33,850
So there's no doubt that if 
people had the fire of self 

1099
01:07:33,850 --> 01:07:38,450
compassion inside, if they could
recognize in an open hearted way

1100
01:07:38,450 --> 01:07:41,370
when they're suffering, if they 
could not feel so alone, and if 

1101
01:07:41,370 --> 01:07:44,330
they could be kind to 
themselves, they would suffer 

1102
01:07:44,330 --> 01:07:45,650
less. 
That's the first thing that 

1103
01:07:45,650 --> 01:07:48,210
would happen, but the second 
thing that would happen. 

1104
01:07:49,210 --> 01:07:51,610
Is they would be kinder to 
others. 

1105
01:07:51,730 --> 01:07:56,370
And so from my experience, and 
this happened really in a 

1106
01:07:56,370 --> 01:08:00,890
nutshell for the first time at 
that conference that I mentioned

1107
01:08:00,890 --> 01:08:04,890
when I had public speaking 
anxiety very easily self 

1108
01:08:04,890 --> 01:08:07,890
compassion translates into 
compassion for others. 

1109
01:08:08,770 --> 01:08:14,450
And so we are now living in a 
world where we have global 

1110
01:08:14,450 --> 01:08:20,020
problems that cannot be. 
Solved in an insular way by 1 

1111
01:08:20,020 --> 01:08:23,140
nation. 
We need to do this together. 

1112
01:08:23,140 --> 01:08:26,500
We need to solve, you know, 
global warming. 

1113
01:08:26,500 --> 01:08:28,819
We need to solve the problem of 
wars. 

1114
01:08:28,819 --> 01:08:31,580
We need to solve social 
injustice. 

1115
01:08:31,939 --> 01:08:37,420
How do we solve these really 
global problems, problems that 

1116
01:08:37,819 --> 01:08:39,819
require everybody to 
participate? 

1117
01:08:40,740 --> 01:08:44,420
The answer in my view is we need
to have more fellow feeling. 

1118
01:08:44,420 --> 01:08:48,180
We need to have more compassion.
And then the question is how do 

1119
01:08:48,180 --> 01:08:52,180
we grow in compassion, 
especially when people are 

1120
01:08:52,460 --> 01:08:55,779
frightened and afraid and they 
shut down, How do we grow in 

1121
01:08:55,779 --> 01:08:58,779
compassion? 
Well, the easiest way to do it, 

1122
01:08:58,779 --> 01:09:03,340
I think is to grow in self 
compassion when we feel the pain

1123
01:09:03,460 --> 01:09:09,189
of these global problems. 
We first step is we be kind to 

1124
01:09:09,229 --> 01:09:12,109
ourselves. 
We recognize our own suffering, 

1125
01:09:12,590 --> 01:09:16,310
we attend to our own suffering. 
We change our Physiology and 

1126
01:09:16,310 --> 01:09:18,950
then our heart will open toward 
others. 

1127
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:23,750
We will feel more like a global 
community and it be more 

1128
01:09:23,750 --> 01:09:28,270
motivated to make a change. 
So in a nutshell, the easiest 

1129
01:09:28,270 --> 01:09:32,229
way to grow in compassion for 
others, I think, is to fall in 

1130
01:09:32,229 --> 01:09:37,189
compassion for ourselves. 
And when we do that, we have 

1131
01:09:37,229 --> 01:09:40,710
created a foundation for working
together to solve problems that 

1132
01:09:40,710 --> 01:09:43,470
are bigger than any of us. 
That's great. 

1133
01:09:43,950 --> 01:09:49,109
Before I let you go Chris, where
can people go to learn more 

1134
01:09:49,109 --> 01:09:53,109
about self compassion and to 
maybe do some practices 

1135
01:09:53,109 --> 01:09:55,350
themselves? 
How can they start small? 

1136
01:09:55,430 --> 01:09:59,070
Where does someone go right now 
to learn a little bit more about

1137
01:09:59,070 --> 01:10:02,110
your work, about the field, 
about how they can incorporate 

1138
01:10:02,110 --> 01:10:05,360
self compassion into their life?
Well, I would say some written 

1139
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:09,080
material and some links. 
So the book you had mentioned, 

1140
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:14,120
the Mindful Self Compassion 
Workbook is available on Amazon.

1141
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:18,520
It's coauthored by Kristin Neff 
and myself and it's extremely 

1142
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,440
popular book. 
It's been selling like crazy for

1143
01:10:21,440 --> 01:10:24,160
the last five years. 
So that's a place to start. 

1144
01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:29,280
And if you want to listen to 
guided meditations and other 

1145
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:31,320
practices and self compassion, 
you can. 

1146
01:10:31,690 --> 01:10:34,290
And learn all about, you know, 
different opportunities for 

1147
01:10:34,290 --> 01:10:39,010
learning about self compassion 
in a classroom setting, online 

1148
01:10:39,010 --> 01:10:41,850
or in person. 
You could go to the to the 

1149
01:10:41,850 --> 01:10:47,130
website centerformsc.org, which 
means Center for mindful self 

1150
01:10:47,130 --> 01:10:52,610
compassion Center for msc.org. 
Or you can go to my website 

1151
01:10:52,610 --> 01:10:57,370
chrisgermer.com or Kristen 
Neff's website which is self 

1152
01:10:57,370 --> 01:11:00,330
hyphen 
compassionself-compassion.org. 

1153
01:11:01,090 --> 01:11:04,330
And there's a ton of stuff on 
Self compassion online. 

1154
01:11:04,570 --> 01:11:08,130
Well, I should say thank you for
the workshop you gave seven 

1155
01:11:08,130 --> 01:11:12,850
years ago where you completely 
took away my lower back pain. 

1156
01:11:13,210 --> 01:11:14,730
I never got a chance to thank 
you for that. 

1157
01:11:14,730 --> 01:11:16,490
So I so appreciate it. 
Yeah, I'm. 

1158
01:11:16,810 --> 01:11:20,810
So glad to hear that Dustin. 
And you know, thanks for giving 

1159
01:11:21,450 --> 01:11:25,490
me some time and sharing your 
wisdom and your expertise. 

1160
01:11:25,610 --> 01:11:31,030
I can't think of a better topic 
to make more mainstream and I'm 

1161
01:11:31,670 --> 01:11:35,470
and I'm glad that we we were 
able to to talk together and and

1162
01:11:35,470 --> 01:11:37,310
hopefully people can take 
something away from this. 

1163
01:11:37,870 --> 01:11:42,350
Well, I I really appreciate that
you're doing this work and thank

1164
01:11:42,350 --> 01:11:47,470
you for joining the chorus. 
And I personally, I really 

1165
01:11:47,470 --> 01:11:51,030
enjoyed the interview and 
personally thank you, grateful 

1166
01:11:51,070 --> 01:11:52,710
to you, Thank you. 
Thanks so much. 

1167
01:11:54,270 --> 01:11:56,550
Thanks for listening to this 
episode of Curiously. 

1168
01:11:57,020 --> 01:11:59,420
I hope you enjoyed this 
conversation with Chris Kerman. 

1169
01:11:59,980 --> 01:12:02,420
Stay tuned for more 
conversations with people and 

1170
01:12:02,420 --> 01:12:03,100
meet along the way.