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I'm Dustin Grinnell, and this is
curiously When we think of 

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imagination, we tend to think 
it's reserved for the creatives 

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among us, painters and poets, 
artists and musicians. 

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But the truth is, we use our 
imagination almost all the time 

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anytime we reminisce, 
anticipate, or plan. 

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In fact, research suggests we 
spend between 1/4 and 1/2 of our

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waking hours with our minds 
wandering elsewhere, away from 

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the present moment. 
Doctor Adam Zieman's 2025 book 

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The Shape of Things Unseen 
explores just how central 

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imagination is to human 
experience. 

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In it, the UK based neurologist 
blends neuroscience with the 

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humanities and the arts, drawing
on evolutionary biology, child 

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development, literature and 
music to paint a picture of the 

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imaginative mind. 
He examines William Plake's 

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visionary poetry, Mozart's 
ability to hear concertos in his

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head, and the creative insights 
behind scientific breakthroughs 

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like the discovery of benzene. 
But Doctor Zeaman also reveals 

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imaginations Darker side. 
A wandering mind can be an 

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unhappy mind. 
Excessive rumination contributes

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to depression and our ability to
simulate future scenarios, and 

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sometimes trap us in anxiety. 
From psychospat illness to the 

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placebo effect. 
From living with vivid mental 

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imagery to living without it, 
Doctor Zeeman shows how 

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imagination operates at every 
level of human consciousness. 

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Today on the podcast, we explore
the science of imagination. 

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A perception might be a kind of 
controlled hallucination. 

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What artists can teach us about 
the creative process, and why 

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the line between the creative 
and the curious may be thinner 

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than we think. 
I hope you enjoyed this 

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conversation about imagination 
in the shape of things Unseen. 

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Doctor Adam Zeeman, welcome to 
the show. 

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Thank. 
You for having me? 

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Today we're going to be talking 
about your 2025 book. 

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I'll lift it up here. 
It's called The Shape of Things 

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Unseen, a new science of 
imagination. 

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I found it to be a really 
fascinating, comprehensive look 

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at, you know, human imagination.
You, you kind of made it hard 

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for a, a podcast interviewer to 
kind of break this book down 

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because there's just so much in 
it about how we think and how we

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perceive the world and how 
imagination is a double edged 

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sword. 
It leads to great things, but 

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also negative outcomes. 
You wove in like research 

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studies and literary references 
and patient stories. 

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So I wanted to set the stage for
us and listener to kind of 

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Orient all of us about how I 
kind of might want to approach 

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this conversation. 
So I wanted to talk about 

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imagination first, the kind of 
definition of it, the pros and 

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cons of it, and then talk about 
sensory experience, how we can 

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use our imagination to create 
mental images. 

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Talk about mind's ear, mind's 
touch, the various ways we can 

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conjure up senses in our in our 
mind. 

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And then talk about creativity, 
how writers, artists, visual 

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artists use their imagination 
because that's a big part of 

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your book as well. 
And then the latter part of the 

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book is kind of how mental 
disorders, you talk about mental

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disorders in the context of 
imagination, various 

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neurological illnesses like 
hysteria and neurological 

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functional disorder in the 
placebo effect. 

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It's all very, very interesting.
And then to end, I kind of 

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wanted to talk about your 
experience as a, you know, as a 

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clinician, as a research 
scientist, and what it was like 

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to write about science, to write
Popular Science. 

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So that's kind of setting the 
table for us. 

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I wanted to just ask, like what 
brought you to this topic? 

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The book is a new science of 
imagination. 

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What brought you to exploring 
the science of imagination? 

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So I, I guess I've had a very 
long standing interest since I 

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was a student, as many people do
in, in what makes U.S. special, 

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you know, whether, whether 
there's anything about the human

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mind that's really distinctive 
that sets us apart from the rest

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of creation. 
And I think that quite a strong 

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candidate is imagination in the 
very broad sense of the capacity

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that allows us to detach 
ourselves from the here and now,

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recollect the past, anticipate 
the future, lose ourselves in 

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the virtual worlds that are 
created by artists and, and I 

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believe by scientists. 
So I wanted to explore this 

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capacity, which seemed to me was
a a distinctively human 

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possession. 
Just in terms of like basic 

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definitions, how would you 
define imagination? 

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Like what is it in basic terms? 
It's not a term of science, of 

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course, it's a tricky, it's a 
tricky term. 

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And I think 1 can distinguish at
least three levels or three 

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planes on which the term is 
used. 

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So there's perhaps it's simplest
to start with the what I think 

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is the most colloquial of the 
three senses. 

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So if I ask you to imagine an 
apple, you will, if you have 

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imagery, and most of us do, form
an image of an apple in its 

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absence. 
So the capacity to represent 

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things in their absence is that 
is at least one of the core 

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senses of imagination. 
There is a a slightly technical 

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sense in which the words used by
neuroscientists and 

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psychologists in which one could
say that in perception 1 forms 

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an image of the world. 
So the world casts an image on 

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the retina and that image then 
gives rise to a perceptual 

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apprehension of the world, which
is sometimes described as a 

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perceptual image. 
So sometimes image is used to 

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refer to your awareness of the, 
of the here and there, the world

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around you. 
That's less colloquial than the 

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second sense, which I mentioned.
First, the ability to represent 

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things in their absence, your 
ability to imagine an apple or 

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your front door or your best 
friend in, in his or her 

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absence. 
And then there is a third sense,

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a much a very broad sense in 
which imagination refers to our 

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capacity to to reconceive and 
reconfigure the world, world as 

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we do when we are creative. 
And it's curious in a way that 

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we use the same term for the 
ability that underpins 

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creativity as we do for the 
ability that allows us to 

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represent things in our absence.
Because they're, they're rather,

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they're rather separate, but 
they're, but they're 

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interestingly related. 
I think there are good reasons 

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why we use the same word, but 
those senses are a somewhat 

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distinct. 
As a kind of footnote, it's 

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interesting to reflect on the 
etymology of imagination, so 

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that the root is apparently a 
Sanskritic word, which is 

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something like eym, aim, which 
means to twin or to pair. 

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So that idea of twinning pairing
is at the root of not just 

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imagination but also mimesis and
imitation. 

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And one can see how that that 
idea of twinning or pairing 

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suddenly underpins the idea of 
representing things in their 

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absence, as we do when we think 
about that apple that isn't 

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isn't in the room. 
But it also makes sense in terms

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of forming A perceptual image, 
because then you're twinning 

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within yourself, the world, the 
world around you, using your 

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senses. 
One thing I loved about your 

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book was that it was just, it 
was good. 

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It was good old fashioned 
science writing, popularizing 

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science for lay readers. 
There was so much more like 

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richness to the book because you
added in so many like personal 

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reflections, personal 
experiences, literary 

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references, historical 
references. 

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And I'd liked all the quotes at 
the beginning of each chapter. 

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One of the quotes I wanted to 
read was from Shakespeare's A 

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Midsummer's Night's Dream, 
because I wondered if this is 

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maybe where the title of the 
book might have come from. 

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And so in the play the quote is.
And as imagination bodies forth 

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the forms of things unknown, the
poet's pen turns them to shapes 

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and gives to airy nothing, a 
local habitation and a name. 

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And it did that have something 
to do with your title? 

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The shape of things on scene. 
I'm sure you're right that that 

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was the origin, though. 
It was filtered through my own 

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conscious so that the title came
to me. 

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And it was only later that it 
occurred to me that of course, I

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was borrowing from Shakespeare 
unconscious plagiarism. 

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At least I've modified it a 
little. 

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Titles can be quite potent. 
And actually, I found The Shape 

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of Things Unseen was quite a, an
appropriate title, particularly 

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given the interest which sort of
coincidentally, I've developed 

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in the course of writing the 
book in, in people who are, who 

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are unable to visualize or to 
experience sensory imagery, of 

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course, have, have sense of, 
have some sense of the shape of 

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things on scene because they're 
they're not able to see them in 

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their mind's eye. 
It reminded me of when when you 

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talk about the ability to 
conjure up mental images, we'll 

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get into the varying degrees of 
being able to of having a mind's

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eye, the aphantasia lacking 
completely versus 

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hyperphantasia. 
This an interesting test that I 

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think you introduced me to a 
long time ago, which is if 

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someone with a Fantasia like 
myself, if you ask me the 

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question, what's a darker green 
like, like grass on a lawn or 

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like a pine tree or something 
like that. 

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I could, I could tell you the 
answer to that. 

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I can't see it in my mind's eye,
but I do know, right? 

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And so that's very much unseen, 
and yet it has shaped. 

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Interestingly, ChatGPT also 
knows the answer to that 

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question, though it's never seen
anything. 

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There are several like big ideas
in your book that you circle 

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around. 
And one of them, I think is that

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imagination, like you said at 
the beginning, it allows us to 

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kind of spend time away from the
present, you know, whether it's 

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imagining the future or 
reminiscing on the past. 

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And I wanted to just read A1 
short paragraph that I think 

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encapsulates this idea. 
And then we can we can talk 

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about it. 
But you, you say actually on 

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page 2, we we may not all be 
constantly engaged in creative 

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work. 
We are all incessant visitors to

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imaginative worlds as we 
contemplate future 

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possibilities, recollect 
vanished experiences, enjoy 

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vicarious lives, travel into the
imagined territories of science.

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Deeply absorbed by these 
pursuits, we spend so much of 

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our time in our heads that we 
often need to be reminded to 

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return to the here and now. 
And yeah, talk about 

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imaginations, ability to 
dislocate us from the present 

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reality, because I think that 
was a central theme in the book.

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Yeah, no, absolutely. 
And I'm always reminded in this 

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context of watching my research 
assistant once crossing the 

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road, a busy road off, sit my 
office, listening to music 

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through his headphones and 
reading the book that was open 

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in his hands. 
We do risk falling into 

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potholes, don't we, when we 
become too absorbed in, in, in 

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imaginary imaginative worlds. 
But this has been studied now 

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quite intensively. 
And it turns out that if you 

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sample people's experience from 
moment to moment, we are very 

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often lost in our thoughts, lost
in daydreams. 

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Sort of 30 to 40% of the time 
people will report being absent 

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from the here and now. 
And in fact, the the single most

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common mental content is visual 
imagery, more common than 

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awareness of the here and now, 
more common than any than any 

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other other mental content. 
So, so we really do, I think in 

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a, in a, in a now empirically 
proven sense, live in our 

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thoughts. 
Of course not, not constantly. 

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It's very important that the 
world corrects those thoughts 

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from time to time. 
And when you're playing 

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football, I guess you, you're 
pretty much in the here and now.

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But but much of the time we're 
occupied by by imaginative 

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processes. 
You're saying we're spending 

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more time playing messing with 
visual images on our mind than 

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00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,200
we're than we are perceiving the
the present? 

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00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,000
But you give people buzzes, and 
the buzzes sound random 

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intervals, and you ask people to
report what what is occupying 

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their awareness. 
The most common content is 

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visual imagery. 
Not not here and now, but but 

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imagining something. 
In your book you referenced a a 

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00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,400
Harvard study. 
I think it was something about a

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wandering mind and and you said 
it, it said like a wandering 

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mind is an unhappy mind. 
So what you explore in this 

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context is the double edged 
sword of yeah, sure, like being 

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able to plan and think and 
imagine and suggest and propose 

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and create it. 
It's all well and good and has 

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wonderful outcomes, but it's the
IT has a the flip side of the 

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coin. 
Is that too much of it can make 

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us unhappy? 
In the most extreme case, you 

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gather rumination, which can 
lead to clinical depression. 

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And I wonder what other ways 
imagination can kind of get us 

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into trouble in this context. 
As sort of as a way into that, 

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let me say that I, I think just 
as you indicate, there's a kind 

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of deep tension in, in our human
lives here. 

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We, we have a wish to be 
present. 

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We get into difficulties when we
fail to be present, 

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psychological difficulties, 
which we, we, we can come on to,

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but we know no human life could 
be lived entirely in the 

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present. 
We, you know, we have to, we 

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have to take account of what 
might happen in the future. 

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And we, we to understand 
ourselves, we need to take 

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00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,600
account of what's happened in 
the past. 

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So I think there's a, there's a 
constant tug in, in human lives 

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between the, the wish to, to 
live fully in the present and, 

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and the wish to understand 
ourselves longitudinally, so to,

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so to speak, and, and to, to, to
take account of the imagined 

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past and the imagined future. 
So as you say, a few people with

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people who who dwell too much on
the past are often less happy 

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00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:00,800
than than others. 
That was the, that was the 

242
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,360
finding of the of the Harvard 
study. 

243
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,880
And, and as you say, when we 
become depressed, we tend to 

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ruminate in a rather repetitive 
way on past experiences. 

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It's problematic for us if we 
lose contact with reality, as 

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people do in psychosis. 
When they hallucinate, they 

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generate images which seem to 
them which they take for reality

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but which deceive them. 
This reminds me to say, and 

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perhaps this is something you 
want to come on to, that there's

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00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,000
an idea currently that our 
awareness of the world around us

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00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,600
is best regarded as a kind of 
controlled hallucination. 

252
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So there is a sense in which 
everything we experience comes 

253
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,160
comes from the brain, comes from
our heads most of the time are 

254
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,480
able to ensure that our 
awareness is reasonably in line 

255
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,360
with, with the with the external
facts. 

256
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,480
What happens in psychosis is 
that the the experience we 

257
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,480
generate loses its moorings it 
it loses contact with with 

258
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,200
external reality and that that's
clearly not not a good idea for 

259
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,520
us. 
I absolutely want to talk more 

260
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,160
about that in a in a few 
minutes. 

261
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,880
This idea of like, to what 
degree are we passively like 

262
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,160
observing reality versus 
creating it? 

263
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,400
Yeah, fascinating. 
But it, it, it made me think too

264
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,080
of I, I wonder where our species
would be like without the 

265
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:34,080
ability to imagine the ability 
to imagine images for one. 

266
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:39,000
Like I have a I had a colleague,
this was 7-8 years ago when I 

267
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,560
wrote this fictional story about
someone with a Fantasia and they

268
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:44,840
cured it with a digital 
technology to create 

269
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,520
hypervantasia. 
The idea of having 

270
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,480
hyperphantasia has always seemed
like a superpower to me because 

271
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,040
I lack the ability to conjure up
mental images. 

272
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,560
So to be able to kind of go to 
your favorite movie and play it 

273
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,000
back and stop it at your 
favorite scene, or even just 

274
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,680
picture a loved one who's passed
and it's all just seems like 

275
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,560
wonderful. 
What inspired the story was I 

276
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,520
had a colleague who she was at 
the top end of hyper Fantasia. 

277
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,160
So she told me over lunch once 
that when she was bored at work 

278
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,920
at her desk, she would just go 
into her mind and lift off and 

279
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,880
fly around, fly around the 
Boston area. 

280
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:29,280
And what an incredible power to 
be able to escape from one's 

281
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,720
present circumstances. 
That's a very benign example. 

282
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,760
But then you think of, you 
talked about this in your book, 

283
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,760
Viktor Frankel in the 
concentration camp, he literally

284
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,640
used it as a survival tactic. 
He was able to dislocate from a 

285
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,680
incredibly grim catastrophic 
situation to to specifically 

286
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,760
like go into his apartment and 
walk down the street. 

287
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,200
And he said these images brought
into tears what an incredible 

288
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,440
survival ability. 
And without that, we would be at

289
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,560
a great loss, I think. 
Absolutely. 

290
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,119
But to illustrate the the the, 
the tension that we were talking

291
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:11,240
about a moment ago, there is a 
risk to indulging one's 

292
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,839
daydreams, and there's recently 
been described as syndrome of 

293
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:16,440
maladaptive daydreaming. 
Somewhat dissatisfied with their

294
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,319
current situation and who for 
whom daydreaming becomes 

295
00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:23,839
somewhat addictive, they lose 
themselves in enrich absorbing 

296
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,359
daydreams about possible futures
to the extent that they that 

297
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,240
they they neglect the present, 
they neglect their their their 

298
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,480
current duties. 
Yeah, no, that, that's what 

299
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,480
happens in my story. 
The person becomes actually 

300
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,720
disabled. 
Because if you can imagine a 

301
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,720
world where everything is 
perfect, where you're perfect, 

302
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:50,000
where there's no pain, where you
can do anything, why would you 

303
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,720
stay in reality? 
Reality is so messy and 

304
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:55,720
problematic. 
So I wonder how you pull those 

305
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,360
people out. 
I mean, it's interesting that 

306
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:00,080
you talked about a specific case
of psychosis in that regard. 

307
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,960
How do you lure them back to 
reality? 

308
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:08,520
Well, I think using different 
approaches in different 

309
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,880
circumstances. 
So you know, psychosis is 

310
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,000
generally treated using 
medication in the hope that the 

311
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:21,040
brain in time will recover its 
equilibrium and regain its its 

312
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,960
recover its moorings, regain its
links with reality. 

313
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,640
The the approach and psychosis 
is typically pharmacological, 

314
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,640
whereas in PTSD, say post 
traumatic stress disorder, where

315
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,560
where people's minds are invaded
by intrusive images, behavioural

316
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:40,400
approaches can be can be 
particularly effective. 

317
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,400
If I may just going back a step,
you, you were asking where we'd 

318
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,880
be without imagination, and I 
think the answer to that 

319
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,160
question does depend on which 
kind of imagination you have in 

320
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,080
mind. 
If the question is where would 

321
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,240
we be without creativity, I 
think the answer is we'd be a 

322
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,240
very long way back, couldn't we?
I mean, our whole, our lives 

323
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:05,160
are, are completely soaked 
through with culture and culture

324
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,840
is the product of individual 
acts of imagination in the sense

325
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,640
of creativity. 
They're they're they're, they're

326
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,560
the, our culture is the result 
of innumerable small acts of 

327
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,080
creation. 
Creativity in this sense, 

328
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,440
meaning the ability to make 
things that are both new and 

329
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,600
useful. 
So we'd we'd be nowhere really 

330
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,960
if we if we liked imagination in
that sense. 

331
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,640
The question of what sensory 
imagery does for us is a really,

332
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,920
really interesting one, which 
we'll perhaps we'll come to. 

333
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,000
I think it's, I think it's much 
less obvious what sensory 

334
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,240
usually does for us than it is 
what human creativity does for 

335
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,680
us. 
Human creativity is really 

336
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,160
absolutely fundamental to our to
our lives. 

337
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,960
Let's go to sensory experience. 
And, you know, you talk about 

338
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,880
there's a lot of variation in 
our ability to imagine various 

339
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:58,680
senses, whether it's sound or 
vision or I met someone at the 

340
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,880
conference we were at who has a 
very strong mind's touch. 

341
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,720
Her dog had passed away and she 
was able to kind of imagine her 

342
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,960
dog laying on her chest. 
She could feel the weight of her

343
00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:13,960
dog. 
That's a mind's touch. 

344
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,760
Really fascinating you. 
You wrote about Mozart and his 

345
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,000
mind's ear, which was seemed to 
be like off the charts. 

346
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,960
You know, he could, he actually 
heard concertos in his head and 

347
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,000
he would rush to the. 
No pad and and have to write 

348
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,080
them down. 
So talk about, you know, our 

349
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,680
ability to imagine sense and the
variation among us. 

350
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,840
Yeah. 
So I mean this is an invisible 

351
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,480
variation. 
I think each of us tends to take

352
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,640
his, her, her own experience as 
the norm. 

353
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:46,480
So it, it comes, it comes for 
example, as a a huge surprise 

354
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,840
for many people with athentasia,
many people who lack imagery to 

355
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,280
discover that other people 
actually enjoy sensory 

356
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,440
experience, imaginative sensory 
experience. 

357
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,520
So typically people that 
Fantasia say up to a certain 

358
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,760
point, I'd always assume that 
talk of the mind's eye was just 

359
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,720
a metaphor. 
It was just a figure of speech. 

360
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,400
And then at a certain moment I 
realized, actually people really

361
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,920
are seeing something in their 
mind's eye. 

362
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,720
We're very visual animals. 
So visualization is, is a 

363
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,080
particularly dominant, prominent
example of sensory imagery. 

364
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,400
But you've mentioned the mind's 
ear. 

365
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:21,440
Many, many people enjoy 
something like the experience of

366
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:27,760
hearing in in their mind's ear. 
Many of us can imagine the feel 

367
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,160
of velvet has against the feel 
of satin or of sandpaper. 

368
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:37,200
There are people who appear to 
have imagery of smells and 

369
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,800
tastes. 
I think most of us can imagine 

370
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,480
running for a bus, say, so we 
have most of us have motor 

371
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,280
imagery or kinesthetic imagery. 
You know, you can imagine 

372
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,640
walking gently down a country 
lane as opposed to racing to 

373
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,840
catch a train. 
We can enjoy multimodal or most 

374
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,840
of us can enjoy multimodal 
sensory motor experience. 

375
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,640
And it turns out, I don't know 
whether you want to come on to 

376
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,680
this at this point, but it turns
out that what happens in the 

377
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,080
brain when we are, for example, 
visualizing has quite a lot in 

378
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,160
common with what happens in the 
brain when we're seeing. 

379
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,160
So there is an important sort of
neurological overlap between 

380
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,520
perception and imagery, if you 
like. 

381
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,640
What is happening when we engage
in sensory imagery is that we 

382
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,680
run offline the systems in the 
brain that we engage online when

383
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,280
we are perceiving, when, when, 
when we are sensing. 

384
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,680
That the apparent differences 
between people's experience in 

385
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,240
this regard is not simply a 
matter of description. 

386
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,040
That it goes deeper than that. 
So like in like sports 

387
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,960
psychology, like Olympians right
now, skiers are preparing for 

388
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,680
their events, right? 
So they talk about, you know, 

389
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,360
visual as the power of 
visualization and running 

390
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,320
through the event in your mind's
eye before doing it. 

391
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,600
And are are you, are you saying 
it's almost like a neurological 

392
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,280
match between doing it? 
There is there is a neurological

393
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,360
match. 
So let me give you a couple of 

394
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:08,480
examples, if you It was a nice 
experiment showing that simply 

395
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:14,000
imagining exercising a finger 
increased strength over the 

396
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,160
course of a few weeks. 
It didn't increase muscle, it 

397
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,160
increased strength. 
So the effect was probably in in

398
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,920
was the effect was in the brain.
Another experiment showed that 

399
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:27,360
getting novice pianists to 
practice a particular pattern of

400
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:33,920
finger movements mentally 
enlarged the area of cortex in 

401
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,480
which those movements were 
represented. 

402
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,520
Just as much as actually 
practicing for real mental 

403
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,120
practice makes a makes a 
difference. 

404
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,840
I when I was researching this, I
particularly enjoyed, perhaps 

405
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,560
because of my medical 
background, I particularly 

406
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,800
enjoyed an article about 
surgeons who It turns out I had 

407
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,680
never thought about this, but it
turns out that surgeons very 

408
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,960
often plan for and reflect on 
their operations and and they do

409
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,120
so using imagery. 
They, they kind of re replay 

410
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,440
the, the video if you like and 
they imagine themselves 

411
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,280
performing the operation and 
they think, think through what 

412
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,280
they're going to have to do and 
they, and afterwards they 

413
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,200
analyse difficulties they ran 
into all mistakes they made 

414
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,000
again using using sensorimotor 
imagery. 

415
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,640
So it's, it's, it's a widely 
used form of thought. 

416
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,760
Yes, the there is a big overlap 
between what happens in the 

417
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,680
brain when you're seeing, for 
example, or hearing or moving, 

418
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,320
and what happens in the brain 
when you're imagining seeing or 

419
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:39,920
hearing or moving. 
I want to run something by you. 

420
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,520
I I instantly knew I wanted to 
ask you this question when I saw

421
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,040
it. 
So basically Alex Hannell, the 

422
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,840
famous free solo climber, he 
climbed A skyscraper. 

423
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,120
So this, this guy's really 
something. 

424
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,320
His latest stunt was to climb a 
huge skyscraper in Taiwan 

425
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,360
without ropes. 
It was a live event. 

426
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:02,600
Everyone's wondering is he going
to fall and all that. 

427
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,160
But he said something really 
fascinating in one of the 

428
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,880
interviews. 
He said that he the way he 

429
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,320
prepares for free solo, like big
free solo events, is that he 

430
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,320
actually imagines the fear that 
he will experience while he's 

431
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,080
climbing without ropes in very 
gnarly situations. 

432
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,360
And that preempts him when he's 
actually in a fearful situation 

433
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:25,800
up there. 
So in his mind, he practices, 

434
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,720
yes, the physical movements, the
maneuvers, but he also practices

435
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,120
the emotional experiences he 
know he will encounter. 

436
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:38,680
And he's that much better able 
to handle fear in the moment 

437
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,520
when it's actually happening. 
So that's a different thing. 

438
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,760
That's not playing the piano. 
That's like playing out 

439
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,440
emotions. 
How do you what do you think 

440
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,560
about that? 
No, that's, that's fascinating. 

441
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,640
So it sounds as if he's sort of 
able to inoculate it or 

442
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,960
inoculate himself against the, 
the, the emotion to, to some 

443
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,120
degree. 
I mean, it makes sense. 

444
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:01,920
The, the principle that I've 
described applies very widely. 

445
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,680
So it applies, for example, to 
pain. 

446
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,680
So the brain regions engaged by 
pain overlap considerably with 

447
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,960
the pain regions engaged when 
you are looking at somebody in 

448
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,760
pain, especially if they're 
close to you. 

449
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,800
So if you look at a loved one in
pain, that will activate areas 

450
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,720
that are engaged in the brain 
when you are in pain and 

451
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,720
imagining pain or remembering 
pain can also engage those 

452
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,240
areas. 
So there was a study showing 

453
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,680
that if you looked at brain 
activity when somebody was 

454
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,960
subjected to sort of moderately 
painful stimulus, you little 

455
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,000
burn on the skin kind of thing 
that experimenters use, which is

456
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,160
bearable, but they're distinctly
unpleasant. 

457
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:42,520
Remembering that episode a few 
hours later or maybe in the next

458
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,960
day engaged almost exactly the 
same set of brain regions as 

459
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,040
experiencing the pain. 
So it's a, it's a general 

460
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,560
principle that experiencing, 
remembering the experience, 

461
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,720
imagining the experience and 
watching somebody else 

462
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,480
undergoing the experience will 
engage. 

463
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,720
Certainly a substantially 
overlapping set of brain areas. 

464
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,520
They're not not identical. 
There are differences you'd 

465
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,720
expect, but there's, there's 
substantial overlap. 

466
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,120
I'll give you another example 
and this this is quite old work.

467
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,000
There is a particular brain 
region which is strongly engaged

468
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,320
by disgust gets engaged if you 
if you are disgusted, but 

469
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,880
exactly that region gets engaged
if you look at a photograph of 

470
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,280
somebody with the facial 
expression of disgust and if you

471
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,640
imagine disgust. 
This is a little bit something I

472
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,560
hadn't thought about, but is 
there, does it work with 

473
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,120
affection in love? 
Like if we like imagine a loved 

474
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:35,480
one versus seeing one in person?
Like is there a neurological 

475
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:42,040
signature? 
I believe that there is. 

476
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,800
I'm trying to. 
I'm trying to call to mind the 

477
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,440
evidence. 
I think that Semi Azeki has done

478
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,720
work along these lines, but I 
would need to remind myself he's

479
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,040
looked at the neurological 
signature of the experience of 

480
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,400
beauty and he also looked, I 
tried to remember what the 

481
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,840
details of the experiment in 
which he studied romantic 

482
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,320
partners was. 
But I think, I think the broadly

483
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,200
the answer I think is yes was 
was the question going in 

484
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,840
particular to particular 
destination? 

485
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,360
No, It just reminded me of the 
movie. 

486
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,560
Contact was one of my favorite 
movies based off a Carl Sagan 

487
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,120
novel. 
And the movie kind of plays with

488
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:23,600
this idea of like, can you prove
love can? 

489
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,640
How do you prove experiences 
that aren't quantifiable, that 

490
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,280
aren't measurable? 
Yeah. 

491
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,560
Well, so the the pain work I was
describing certainly speaks to 

492
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,840
that. 
So you you have a much stronger 

493
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,800
neural response to seeing 
somebody you love in pain than 

494
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,120
you do to seeing a stranger. 
Just out of curiosity, what is 

495
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,240
the brain region that is in 
question here? 

496
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,600
It's a it's a matrix of brain 
regions, as it's called, which 

497
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:59,320
includes the amygdala areas in 
the cingulate cortex, areas in 

498
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:05,400
the orbital frontal cortex. 
It actually maps quite closely 

499
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,320
onto the the set of brain 
regions which is involved in 

500
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,680
pleasure, essentially the 
regions in the in the brainstem 

501
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,520
and in the limbic system and in 
areas of the frontal cortex. 

502
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,320
I wanted to get back to 
something that you touched on 

503
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,640
earlier about perception and 
this phrase of controlled who's 

504
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,200
and is a hallucination. 
You write about this like very 

505
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,400
fascinating idea that like maybe
our perception of reality of the

506
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,400
world's isn't passive. 
We're not just like receiving 

507
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,720
data from the world, but we're 
in some ways helping to create 

508
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,280
it. 
I guess my question is like, to 

509
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,280
what degree are we like truly 
objectively sensing what's 

510
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,520
outside of US versus creating a 
controlled hallucination? 

511
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,880
Like how much? 
How much of of our perception is

512
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,280
an actual like creative act? 
Well, I would say it is. 

513
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,720
It is creative act and it may 
seem at first sight a kind of 

514
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,760
outrageous thing to say, but I 
think I think there's very 

515
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:10,120
compelling evidence for it and 
it's nicely summarized by my 

516
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,840
friend, colleague Anil Seth, who
says that in some ways 

517
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,600
perception is is more inside out
than it is outside in. 

518
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,080
The evidence for this comes 
really from 2 main directions. 1

519
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,040
is kind of set of psychological 
data and reflections, and the 

520
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,320
other more neurological. 
In the psychological domain, 

521
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:35,200
we've all come across illusions 
in which things, when you 

522
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,080
measure them, turn out to be 
different to the way they seem. 

523
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,320
So for example, in the book 
there's a nice image of my 

524
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,880
partner in fact running across a
bridge. 

525
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,880
There are three images, each of 
them is the same size but placed

526
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,440
at different points on the 
bridge. 

527
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,880
And she looks much bigger when 
she's further away. 

528
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,040
And that's because your mind 
makes an unconscious correction 

529
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,560
for distance. 
You can't overcome it. 

530
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,520
When you measure the the image 
you find it's the same size but 

531
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,360
it but but it looks looks 
different. 

532
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,720
Another example would be the 
NECA cube. 

533
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,040
So you this is the just a cube 
drawn on a piece of paper which 

534
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,200
as you look at it changes in 
depth and clearly nothing's 

535
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,080
changing on the page but but 
your perception of it is 

536
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,720
changing. 
The man in the moon is another 

537
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,280
example. 
There is no man in the moon, but

538
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,720
I can't help finding him there 
and then. 

539
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:29,160
As a kind of extreme example, I 
think I'd I relate the the story

540
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,800
in the book of an experience I 
had as a teenager when I slept 

541
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,280
in a the garden room One night. 
I must have forgotten to close 

542
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,080
the curtains and I woke up in 
the early hours and there was a 

543
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,960
burglar standing at the front of
my bed wearing a striped shirt. 

544
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:46,200
And he was so compellingly real 
that I shouted at him and within

545
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,080
a couple of seconds he dissolved
into a pattern of light and dark

546
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,680
shining through the slats of the
fence that I was looking, 

547
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,120
looking at through the through, 
through the windows. 

548
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,640
That was an utterly compelling 
hallucination. 

549
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,520
So a good example of the 
generative nature of perception.

550
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,560
So there's that, there's that 
set of sort of psychological 

551
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,920
observations which takes one to 
the conclusion that perception 

552
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,480
is generative. 
And then there's the the 

553
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,200
neurological evidence, which is 
in a way may much simpler. 

554
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,280
Our brains are constantly at 
work. 

555
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,200
They're constantly consuming 
oxygen and glucose. 

556
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,240
If they stop, perception stops. 
So, so clearly the experience 

557
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:27,560
stops. 
Experience, like human 

558
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,760
experience is entirely dependent
on the, on the metabolic 

559
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,360
activity of, of metabolic and 
neural activity occurring within

560
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,600
our brains. 
So clearly there's, there's some

561
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,080
biological process at work which
is responsible for experience 

562
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,840
and, and in particular 
perception. 

563
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,640
So I think there are really 
compelling reasons for regarding

564
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:53,640
our experience as as a 
generative creative act of a 

565
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,400
biological kind. 
When we met, it was 5 or 6 years

566
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,960
ago during a conference that you
helped put together. 

567
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,400
I believe it was on the heels of
the research that you had 

568
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,640
started in 2015 about mental 
imagery when you coined the term

569
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,520
a Fantasia lacking a mind's eye.
I was wondering, can you bring 

570
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:18,280
us back to that moment in 2015 
when you started to study those 

571
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,120
like 21 patients who didn't have
a mind's eye and how that 

572
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,880
snowballed into incredible 
amounts of public interest? 

573
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,200
And yeah, just talk about mental
imagery and the variation of it,

574
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,280
and we can discuss aphantasia 
and hyperphantasia as you as you

575
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,840
like. 
It may be worth telling the 

576
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,360
story from from the beginning, 
making a little deech. 

577
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,960
I first encountered somebody who
couldn't visualize in 2003, I 

578
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,840
think, when I was referred to a 
patient who had lost the ability

579
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,920
to imagine, which wasn't a 
symptom that I'd ever come 

580
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,680
across before, and I was 
intrigued by it. 

581
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,920
He turned out to be very 
delightful man, excellent 

582
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,160
research participant. 
And indeed, it did seem that he 

583
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,840
had selectively lost the 
capacity to visualize following 

584
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,240
a cardiac procedure. 
And we did a brain imaging study

585
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,360
in which we showed that when he 
looked at faces, his brain 

586
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,560
activated quite normally. 
But when he tried to imagine 

587
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,159
them, he failed him to activate 
those visual regions that most 

588
00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:15,719
people with imagery activate 
when they when they visualize. 

589
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,480
So I thought this was an 
interesting case. 

590
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,679
We wrote a case report. 
I didn't really expect too much 

591
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,840
more to come of it. 
Story was then picked up by Carl

592
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,639
Zimmer, an American science 
journalist who wrote an article 

593
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:29,840
in Discover magazine about this 
patient. 

594
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,880
And then over the course of the 
next two or three years, I and 

595
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:38,400
my colleagues were contacted by 
21 people who said we're just 

596
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,360
like MX, the person described in
this Discover article, except 

597
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:43,840
we've never been able to 
visualize. 

598
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,719
We've always realized that 
there's something a little bit 

599
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,040
different about us. 
When other people reminisce 

600
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,159
about the past, they seem to 
have a visual experience of what

601
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:51,280
they're remembering. 
We, we don't. 

602
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,080
And these 21 people told quite a
consistent story. 

603
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,120
We we sent them a vividness 
questionnaire which just 

604
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,040
measures how valid your imagery 
is, asking people asking you to 

605
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,120
visualize 16 scenes, and we 
asked them a set of common sense

606
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,440
questions. 
And when we came to describe 

607
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,040
them in a paper in 2015, we 
thought that this phenomenon 

608
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,320
deserved a name. 
Up till then there had been some

609
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,760
reports in the neurological 
literature, but the terms were 

610
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,000
pretty unwieldy, defective 
revisualization and visual ear 

611
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,880
reminiscence. 
So we thought we could do better

612
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,160
than that. 
I asked a friend who had studied

613
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,800
the Classics and he said why 
don't you borrow Aristotle's 

614
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,720
time for the Mind's Eye, which 
is Fantasia, and tag an ale at 

615
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:30,880
the end. 
So that was how a Fantasia, the 

616
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,720
term a Fantasia was born and it 
caught on. 

617
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,680
So there was press interest in 
it. 

618
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:41,040
I gave a a three or four minute 
interview on a breakfast TV 

619
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,280
show. 
When I came back to my room 

620
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,040
there were males coming into my 
own inbox faster than I could 

621
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,240
count them. 
And since then I think I've been

622
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:52,120
contacted by getting on for 
20,000 people mostly describing 

623
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,080
aphantasia, so lifelong absence 
of imagery, but some describing 

624
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,840
imagery as vivid as we're seeing
at the opposite end of the 

625
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,560
spectrum. 
So hyperphantasia and it's 

626
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,240
turned out that these this 
contrast is really a really 

627
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:09,840
rather interesting one. 
There seems there seems to be a 

628
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,040
pattern of associations with 
with adventation adventasia. 

629
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,040
They're not if you like, they're
not isolated psychological 

630
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,240
quirks. 
They they seem to travel with a 

631
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:22,840
number of other variations. 
I don't think of them as 

632
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,520
disorders. 
I think of them very much as 

633
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,560
intriguing variations in human 
experience. 

634
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,520
I don't think they're 
problematic in themselves. 

635
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,720
I think that they they carry 
with them pros and cons, 

636
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:33,560
strength, advantages and 
disadvantages. 

637
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,280
How do you account for the 
explosion of interest? 

638
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,360
It occurred to me at the 
conference that we started at 

639
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,280
Mental imagery, for sure. 
Like, oh, you can't see things 

640
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,360
in your mind too interesting. 
It always blossom into a bigger 

641
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,440
conversation about how we 
perceive the world, and I wonder

642
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:51,760
if that has something to do with
it. 

643
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,200
We don't really think about how 
other people think. 

644
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,080
I think that because we live so 
much of A life in our heads, we 

645
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,640
are intrigued to discover that 
the lives other people leave in 

646
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,880
their heads may be very 
different to the lives we lead. 

647
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,720
So I think we're fascinated to 
discover that there are there 

648
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,240
are these big variations in 
experience. 

649
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:13,960
I think people with aphantasia 
were pleased that they had a 

650
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,560
sort of flag to fly under, a 
turn to describe their 

651
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,400
experience which had been 
lacking until then. 

652
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,800
And they were, they were glad 
that some attention was being 

653
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,000
paid to to their experience. 
And people with imagery were 

654
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,400
intrigued to find that there 
were others who lacked it. 

655
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,840
It's curious that the topic 
hadn't been highlighted sooner. 

656
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,680
So Francis Galton, who was a 
psychologist working in the 19th

657
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,320
century, was the first person to
try to measure visual imagery. 

658
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,600
And he actually recognized that 
there were people who seemed to 

659
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,720
like it. 
He said that there were among 

660
00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:44,920
his participant, there were 
participants. 

661
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,400
There were people whose power of
visualization was zero, as he 

662
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,080
put it. 
And he thought this was more 

663
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,040
common among scientists. 
But he didn't really pursue the 

664
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,040
the observation, and nor did 
anybody else. 

665
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,240
There was, I think there's just 
one, one paper by an American 

666
00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:01,320
psychologist who himself lacked 
imagery, who sampled imagery and

667
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,800
his students sort of over the 
intervening centuries. 

668
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,640
So for some reason it was just a
blind spot in the in, in 

669
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,520
psychological research. 
There'd been masses of work on 

670
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,240
imagery generally, but it had 
focused on, if you like, the 

671
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:18,160
typical image and had ignored 
the extremes, which which turned

672
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,040
out to be really interesting. 
One of the things that 

673
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,640
interested me as someone with a 
Fantasia was perhaps the 

674
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:31,640
correlation with deficits like 
poorer autobiographical memory, 

675
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:37,120
inability to picture lost loved 
ones, inability to visualize the

676
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,360
future, whatever you want. 
But then there are also where, 

677
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,360
like some perceived benefits 
worth exploring. 

678
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:50,480
And in your book, you write that
you say, sad as it is to lack 

679
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,160
the ability to visualize those 
we love, people with aphantasia 

680
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,240
seem to move on more easily than
most of us from a breakup or a 

681
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:02,000
bereavement. 
Lacking the clamorous impact of 

682
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,520
imagery helps them live in the 
present. 

683
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,120
And Yep, that did hit hit my 
personal experience. 

684
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,080
And it also was sort of 
validating in a way because I 

685
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,800
thought of myself potentially as
like less feeling or more on 

686
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,440
feeling than others. 
But it was correlated with my 

687
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,200
inability to picture these 
things that to picture the 

688
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,440
traumatic imagery, it didn't 
catch me and then therefore it 

689
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,320
didn't hold as much and it 
lessened the emotional impact. 

690
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,720
So I wonder, how have you been 
thinking about the the pros and 

691
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:30,880
cons, the benefits and drawbacks
of imagery? 

692
00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:32,400
Yeah. 
And just to echo what you say, 

693
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,760
many people at Fantasia have 
told me that they've, they've 

694
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,440
been worried at times that 
they're cold because they, they 

695
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,680
don't seem to be as troubled as 
their friends and relations by, 

696
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,600
by break up, moving on to 
bereavement, say. 

697
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,160
But but then they, they come to 
the conclusion that it does 

698
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,240
relate to the lack of imagery. 
Imagery. 

699
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,560
Imagery has been described as an
emotional amplifier. 

700
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,040
And if you, if you like that 
amplification, it's, it's going 

701
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,480
to have an impact on your 
emotional experience and 

702
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,880
responses. 
So, so yeah, I think one of the 

703
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,200
pluses that I had tased you 
probably is what you might call 

704
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,880
presentness the the ability to 
to, to live a little more in the

705
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,680
here and now then. 
Those of us who are being 

706
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,840
distracted by regrets about the 
future or longings for sorry, 

707
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,800
regrets about the past or or or 
or or longings for events in the

708
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,160
future. 
This is still a work in 

709
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,720
progress. 
But it does look as if having a 

710
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:27,240
Fantasia nudges people towards 
working in STEM professions, 

711
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:36,280
science, maths, IT, technology. 
And that makes a kind of sense 

712
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,760
because I think other things 
being equal, people that 

713
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,120
Fantasia have a more abstract 
take on on the world, if you 

714
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,960
like. 
Craig Venter is an example. 

715
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,840
He's a very celebrated American 
scientist, first person to 

716
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,160
decode the genome and I think to
create artificial life. 

717
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,640
And he got in touch not long 
after. 

718
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,720
The time at Fantasia was kind 
and said, I've known this about 

719
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:59,240
myself for a long time and I'd 
always assumed that it was a 

720
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:01,600
help to me in my scientific work
not to have my head cluttered 

721
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,480
with images. 
I guess those are probably the 

722
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,760
two of the principal advantages 
and, and together with 

723
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,600
presentness may come some 
protection from psychological 

724
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,600
difficulties which are fuelled 
or fed by imagery like PTSD for 

725
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,080
example, and you know, possibly 
psychosis. 

726
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,000
I think that that again needs a 
lot more work. 

727
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,400
Whether whether maybe imagery is
a risk factor for psychosis is 

728
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,120
is uncertain, but there is a 
little bit of evidence that it 

729
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,080
that it is. 
Yeah, I, I sometimes think of 

730
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,840
this in the context of PTSD. 
And if I were to be sort of 

731
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:41,960
intercepted by a involuntary 
image or thought of a traumatic 

732
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,680
experience, it would be just 
that, a thought. 

733
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:49,440
It would be imageless yet. 
And if it were not, if it were, 

734
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,640
if all of a sudden something 
troubling ripped into my head, 

735
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,840
it would be way more powerful. 
And so I think that people with 

736
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,400
aphantasia may have some sort of
vaccination against ETSD. 

737
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,520
But there's always the flip side
too, because I've heard one 

738
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,720
friend said they comfort 
themselves often by imagining 

739
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,440
someone who's not there. 
They can put themselves back in 

740
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,600
into a positive experience in 
life, somewhere they traveled. 

741
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,160
They can hang out with old 
friends during like the golden 

742
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,160
age of college or something. 
And this is a source of comfort,

743
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,000
actual comfort. 
So yeah, while I won't be 

744
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,480
burdened by traumatic images, I 
also can't comfort myself and 

745
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,520
get that emotional payouts. 
There's definitely interesting 

746
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,560
implications of the spectrum. 
No, that's, that's absolutely 

747
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,240
right. 
And I guess another 

748
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,920
consideration here is that you, 
some people when they first 

749
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,320
encounter the idea of Fantasia 
are really puzzled and they, 

750
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,400
they ask how, how can people 
think or remember anything 

751
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,040
without imagery? 
And actually, Aristotle wrote, 

752
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,240
the mind never thinks without a 
phantasm. 

753
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,840
But it's, you know, people with 
that Fantasia really get along 

754
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,800
very well. 
In our small, a small study we 

755
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,080
did quite early on where we 
compared a group of about 25 

756
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,200
people that Fantasia 25 with 
hyperphantasia and 25 with 

757
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,880
average imagery IQ was actually 
slightly but significantly 

758
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,360
higher in the athantasia group. 
So I don't know that that 

759
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,680
necessarily holds out with huge 
samples, but it but it just 

760
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,520
makes the point that certainly 
it's not an intellectual 

761
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,520
disadvantage. 
And one fact that is now 

762
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,000
abundantly clear is that 
athantasia doesn't preclude 

763
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,320
imagination in the broad sense. 
So there are many examples of 

764
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,320
authentic people who are highly 
imaginative, creative, 

765
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,040
productive. 
You're a novelist. 

766
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,000
I've mentioned Craig Venter, Ed 
Katmal, past president of Pixar,

767
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,200
Disney, winner of the touring 
prize, Blake Ross, creator of 

768
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,160
Firefox, Mozilla. 
So people created in a whole 

769
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,840
variety of of areas. 
And 11 nice surprise in our 

770
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,240
research was that we were 
contacted by a large number of 

771
00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:49,200
authentic artists. 
So actually, I think we went to 

772
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,680
art school, you would find that 
on average the imagery vividness

773
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,560
is a bit higher than usual. 
So. 

774
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,920
So I think having vivid imagery 
does predispose you to to 

775
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,280
traditionally creative 
activities, but lacking imagery 

776
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,560
certainly doesn't prevent you 
from pursuing a career in them. 

777
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,120
Yeah, I always say that I 
figured out how to write without

778
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,880
a mind's eye. 
And when I realized I I had 

779
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:18,120
something to call that now I 
could still write because, you 

780
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:23,240
know, there's such a bias to 
mental imagery, particularly in 

781
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,720
the narrative arts. 
You know, there's just the bias 

782
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:27,880
that people think that you have 
to see the scene before you 

783
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,600
write it. 
You're just like transcribing 

784
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,760
some mental image you've already
worked out. 

785
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,640
But it's really not bad. 
In my case, I can't. 

786
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,800
So I may have a concept of a 
scene, you know, 2 and these two

787
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:41,720
people will be in it. 
They'll be saying these things. 

788
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:47,080
And then what I can do is I can 
arrange the telling details in 

789
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,560
such a way that I know it will 
manufacture a visual image in 

790
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,400
your mind. 
So it's like, I don't have to 

791
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,680
see it to get you to see it. 
I think and imagine just fine 

792
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,440
without the mental imagery, but 
it's taking a long time for 

793
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,240
people to understand that. 
That has to be exactly right, 

794
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,200
but I think conversely, people 
who do have imagery probably do 

795
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,400
do kind of do use it creatively.
They do. 

796
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,200
And I'm aware of all the writers
I know actually are pretty high 

797
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,120
on the imagery scale and they 
see it at, they see it first. 

798
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:20,800
So, and I think, wow, that 
that'd be nice. 

799
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,680
You know, it'd be nice to see it
first because I think really I'm

800
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,840
sort of manufacturing it in a 
way. 

801
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,800
But I figured it out. 
At our conference, there was a 

802
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,400
visual artist, and he was so 
troubled by this realization 

803
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,920
that he didn't have a mind's eye
that he said he was giving up 

804
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,040
art. 
And I found that really, you 

805
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,840
know, tragic in a way because, 
you know, you can still make art

806
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,000
without it. 
Like, now it would have been 

807
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,000
better for him to have never 
learned of this at all. 

808
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,080
It seems it, it very much 
occurred to me that we could 

809
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,320
have talked about mental imagery
for like, 90 minutes. 

810
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,920
But this book is about 
imagination. 

811
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,480
Another big part of your book is
imagination in the context of 

812
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,200
creativity. 
The way we traditionally think 

813
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,200
about it, imagination is like 
the creative act. 

814
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,520
And I kind of wanted to talk 
about some of the things you 

815
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:16,240
touched on, one of which is 
maybe like personality traits 

816
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,840
that lead to creative thought, 
one of which is openness to 

817
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,000
experience. 
The part of the Big 5. 

818
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,320
I wonder if you can talk about 
how that you know tendency leads

819
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,680
to more creative creative work. 
How does how does that interplay

820
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,920
happen? 
So openness is rather difficult 

821
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,200
to to define, isn't it? 
It seems to be a kind of amount 

822
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:43,800
of intelligence and openness in 
the sense of attentiveness to 

823
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,760
1's own experience and and a 
willingness to undergo new 

824
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:53,240
experiences and and explore new 
territory of of every kind. 

825
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,800
And certainly that kind of 
openness does seem to be 

826
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,640
important in the creative 
process because good ideas often

827
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,720
come to people from unexpected 
places. 

828
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,120
I have a little mnemonic for the
psychological capacities which I

829
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,800
think underpin creativity in the
book, which is skids. 

830
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,680
So the first 3 letters ski stand
for skills. 

831
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,160
So I think there are very, very 
few, if any human creative 

832
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,200
achievements which don't 
presuppose considerable skill in

833
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,920
a particular domain. 
Next D detect D for detachment, 

834
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,760
which is really a meld of the 
ability to control our thoughts 

835
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:34,520
and behaviour and our ability to
detach ourselves from from the 

836
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,400
world by using symbolic 
technologies of various kinds. 

837
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,720
But then the final S in skid 
stands for spontaneity, and 

838
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:47,080
there is a kind of wild card in 
creativity which plays into 

839
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,120
openness. 
We have to be open to to take 

840
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,920
advantage of this. 
Many, many creative people 

841
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:57,320
describe their creative ideas, 
sometimes in their entirety 

842
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,680
themes from musical composition 
just arriving in in their in 

843
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,600
their minds. 
And they clearly don't arrive 

844
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,040
from nowhere. 
But they aren't the outcome of 

845
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,200
the kind of deliberate, 
controlled, voluntary process. 

846
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,200
And one of the reasons I wanted 
to write this book is that I 

847
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,800
think we understand something, 
though, from neuroscience of 

848
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,880
what it is that makes possible 
these creative moments, these 

849
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:26,200
moments of spontaneous creation,
when when an idea appears in in 

850
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,320
someone's mind. 
I won't give you examples of 

851
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:33,440
spontaneous creativity of this 
kind. 

852
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,040
You there are many to be found 
in the book, but I'll say a 

853
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,040
little perhaps about the unless 
you'd like me to, but I'll say a

854
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,920
little about the, about the 
neuroscience. 

855
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:43,440
Probably the the area which is 
most relevant and least well 

856
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,600
known is the, the study of the 
resting brain, which has been a 

857
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,160
really fascinating area of 
neuroscience over the last 

858
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,520
couple of decades. 
So for a long time when people 

859
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,520
performed brain imaging studies 
to see what, what what happens 

860
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,080
in the brain when people are are
thinking, if you like, they 

861
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,280
would compare one condition with
another. 

862
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,400
So what's different between 
reading a word and looking at a 

863
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,920
number? 
Over the last 20 years there has

864
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,320
grown an interest in what 
happens in the brain at rest. 

865
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,280
And it turns out that if you if 
somebody simply lies in a brain 

866
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:18,040
scanner, you can detect activity
within all the networks of the 

867
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,920
active brain. 
So for example, there's a set of

868
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,800
real visual regions of the back 
of the brain in which all the 

869
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,120
areas talk to one another. 
Their activity is synchronized 

870
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,560
within the mass as you'd expect 
really. 

871
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,600
There's a set of motor areas 
which contain control movement. 

872
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,720
And again, even when my lying 
still, there's activity within 

873
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:36,160
these areas, they're into 
communicating. 

874
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:41,800
A particularly fascinating set 
of areas came to light about 20 

875
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,600
years ago, which has been called
the default mode network because

876
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,480
it's actually the set of areas 
which is most active in the 

877
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,160
resting brain. 
It turns out that when you 

878
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,960
examine the function of this 
network, it is particularly 

879
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,840
active in circumstances in which
people are remembering the past,

880
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,520
anticipating the future, 
thinking about other minds, so 

881
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,360
thinking about other people's 
thoughts and thinking about 

882
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,160
moral decisions. 
So just the kinds of things we 

883
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,400
do when we are daydreaming 
really, you know, you'll you'll 

884
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,640
think about something you 
enjoyed yesterday or someone who

885
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,200
offended you yesterday or some 
slightly problematic decision 

886
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,360
about what you're going to do 
tomorrow. 

887
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:21,400
So this is the set of areas 
that's most active at rest in 

888
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,600
the brain set of set of regions 
which seems to be involved in, 

889
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,560
if you like in, in daydreaming. 
And it turns out that when 

890
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,280
people are actually performing 
creative acts, when they're 

891
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,800
engaged in creative activities, 
this network is, is active 

892
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:42,640
because I think one has to kind 
of dip down into the, into one's

893
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:48,080
past one's, one's memories to 
generate creative ideas for the 

894
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:49,760
future. 
And the default by network is 

895
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,800
very much involved in, in 
recollecting the past. 

896
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,080
But this default by network 
during creative acts is in an 

897
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,960
unusually harmonious 
relationship to an executive 

898
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,760
network, a set of regions which 
tends to switch on when the 

899
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,280
default node network switches 
off. 

900
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,720
So if I give you a task like 
telling me as many words with 

901
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:13,800
the letter P as you can in the 
next minute, that will engage 

902
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,720
your default mode, your engage 
your executive network, switch 

903
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:19,120
off your default mode network. 
So normally they are anti 

904
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,120
correlated, but in creative acts
they are in a a more harmonious 

905
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,840
than usual relationship and they
are also interacting with a 

906
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,440
network that's been called the 
salience network, which is 

907
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,880
involved in attributing 
importance in attributing value 

908
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,200
to to things in the world and to
our own pursuits. 

909
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:43,080
So these networks are all at 
work in the resting brain. 

910
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,080
They are in a kind of harmonious
relationship during creative 

911
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,680
acts. 
And I think understanding this 

912
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:54,800
autonomous dynamic activity 
within the brain gives us a much

913
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,360
better understanding of the 
spontaneous processes which are 

914
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,040
involved in creativity than we 
than we had before when the 

915
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,880
brain was regarded as really a 
reactive organ. 

916
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,480
And the the most common analogy 
was with a computer. 

917
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,640
We now have an understanding of 
it has a highly dynamic living 

918
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:21,800
Organism, if you like, or organ 
which spontaneous activity of 

919
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,600
the kind that underpins 
creativity is quite occurs quite

920
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,560
naturally. 
Another example which I discuss 

921
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,440
in the book is the phenomenon of
replay. 

922
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:34,320
Turns out that if you explore a 
new environment, cells will 

923
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,600
become active in your 
hippocampus as you explore the 

924
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,080
environments. 
The campus is a region in the 

925
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,400
temporal lobes which contains a 
kind of spatial map of the 

926
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,040
environment. 
That's interesting that there 

927
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,720
should be such a spatial map, 
but what's really fascinating is

928
00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:51,600
that after you've explored at 
times of rest or during sleep, 

929
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,240
the cells which became active 
during exploration replay your 

930
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,720
your journey, replay the the 
pathway, if you like, which you 

931
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,480
took through the new 
environment, both forwards and 

932
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,440
backwards, as if you were 
learning how to how to escape 

933
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:08,440
from the destination, so to 
speak. 

934
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,680
There's evidence even that the 
order in which the the cells 

935
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:17,200
become active can be reorganized
spontaneously, as if the brain 

936
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,720
were trying to make better sense
of what you'd experienced. 

937
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,040
So here is here's another 
example of spontaneous activity 

938
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,480
within the brain, which is 
probably mostly, if not entirely

939
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,800
unconscious, but which is 
important, probably plays a 

940
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,600
particular role in consolidating
memories. 

941
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,240
But it's just the kind of 
spontaneous activity which one 

942
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,680
can imagine might give rise to 
the ideas which people make use 

943
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:52,730
of in in creative work. 
I'm working on a short story. 

944
00:53:53,090 --> 00:53:55,370
There's, there's really two 
processes that I'm always 

945
00:53:55,370 --> 00:53:59,600
toggling back and forth within 
my brain, which is, you know, 

946
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,640
the default mode network and 
the, the executive functioning. 

947
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,920
So the executive prefrontal 
cortex work is like, you know, 

948
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,840
at the computer willfully moving
things around and banging things

949
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,480
out and solving problems 
essentially. 

950
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,560
But then it's, you know, you 
hit, you hit an impasse, you 

951
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,400
don't know where you're going 
and, and you just back off and 

952
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,280
you go for a walk or have a 
shower or just live your life. 

953
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,640
And that's when the more 
unconscious process sees the 

954
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,920
default mode network. 
That's when it starts to kick 

955
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,320
off things, connections, 
patterns, and you just write 

956
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,840
them down and then you go back 
to the computer for work work. 

957
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:40,320
Something about the creative 
life is developing like a 

958
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,800
facility with the that toggling 
back and forth, being 

959
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:49,640
comfortable with it and kind of 
knowing that if you are stuck, 

960
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,400
just throw it to your 
unconscious, you know, and it'll

961
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,480
work itself out and being able 
to work. 

962
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,120
You talked about working with 
uncertainty a lot too, and, and 

963
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,120
the John Keats's negative 
capability, that that's a big 

964
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:02,120
part of it too. 
Yeah. 

965
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,520
I had a lovely interview with 
the musician David Gray, which I

966
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,040
talk about in the book. 
And he he says that when he's in

967
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:12,280
a particularly creative phase, 
he has the sense that his mind 

968
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,720
is both more objective and more 
subjective simultaneously than 

969
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:18,320
it normally is. 
And I think, I think he's 

970
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:20,720
talking about just what you 
describe. 

971
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,560
There can be kind of alternation
between those two states, but 

972
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,080
there are times on there where 
where you're in, you're in both 

973
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,800
kind of drawing from from the 
depths and but you're also 

974
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,320
controlling from above. 
Right. 

975
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,480
And you kind of know when to 
turn those on and off. 

976
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,720
You know, being a creative 
person is being receptive, but 

977
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:42,480
also willful, going back and 
forth, you know, and knowing the

978
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,760
kind of limits of both the other
the I feel like, you know, if 

979
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,680
your next book's going to be a 
Fantasia, you got to write 

980
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,320
about, write a book on 
creativity. 

981
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,200
You know, I think that would be 
fascinating. 

982
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,640
And it always does. 
Well, any book on creativity 

983
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,200
does extremely well with the 
business community with, you 

984
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:03,840
know, there's a lot in this in 
your book too, about like an 

985
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,000
appreciation for art and artist 
work. 

986
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:10,040
And you you taught, you said the
task of art is to kind of evoke 

987
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,360
the living texture of 
experience, which I thought was 

988
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:16,520
really interesting. 
You met with a writer, Philip 

989
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,720
Pullman, and you talked you 
visit his home and talked about 

990
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:23,160
his writing process. 
And I want to just read this 

991
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,760
this short portion here where 
you got some insights into his 

992
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,160
process. 
He said, he told me, that he 

993
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:34,440
rarely needs to stop and think, 
entering A mild dissociative 

994
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,480
state during his productive 
hours. 

995
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:39,920
He plans only minimally. 
He attributes this to like 

996
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:44,280
lifelong cultivation of the part
of the brain that asks what if? 

997
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,360
All of us ask this question once
in a while. 

998
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,840
But like Philip Pullman, Sandy, 
another character you talked 

999
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,600
about, believes that his well 
trained subconscious is 

1000
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:59,160
constantly exploring narratives.
When he writes this subliminal 

1001
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,280
process finds its voice. 
It's interesting. 

1002
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,760
There's so much to say there. 
I think that training is 

1003
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:06,840
crucial, isn't it? 
I mean, I think there's no 

1004
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:11,000
discovery favours the prepared 
mind as, as I think Pastor said,

1005
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,480
Hugh, there's a lot of prep, a 
lot of training, a lot of 

1006
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:15,720
preparation has to has to have 
happened in the background. 

1007
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,280
But once it's happened, yes, 
then then there's the 

1008
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,680
spontaneous unconscious 
processes are are key. 

1009
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,360
Yeah, and it's something they 
don't teach you in MFA programs 

1010
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,520
too, but you can learn craft. 
That's great. 

1011
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,320
You need to know it, but how to 
actually create is another thing

1012
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:31,600
that you have to get on your 
own. 

1013
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:32,400
I. 
Don't know if you're a Philip 

1014
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,480
Pullman fan, but those those who
have read the Northern Lights 

1015
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,440
will know that one of the heroes
of the book, Lyra, has a strange

1016
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,560
instrument instrument called the
alatheometer she uses to. 

1017
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,560
I can't, I forget whether to see
future events or to see distant 

1018
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:48,760
events. 
But so there's a kind of 

1019
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:51,600
precognitive telepathic 
function. 

1020
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:57,120
And the allythometer can only be
used when you're in a certain 

1021
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:00,720
state of mind. 
You have to, you have to clear 

1022
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,080
your mind to make it possible 
to, to use this instrument. 

1023
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,480
And I, I think this is, it's, 
it's just a metaphor for the 

1024
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,360
imagination. 
Your book is so comprehensive. 

1025
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,880
One of the things I want to talk
about is, you know, mental 

1026
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,160
disorders in the context of 
imagination. 

1027
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:21,480
So really fascinating aspect of 
your exploration where you talk 

1028
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:26,320
about the placebo effect, you 
talk about hysterical symptoms, 

1029
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:30,600
psychosomatic disorders, really 
nice science writing. 

1030
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,080
You weave in stories of of 
patients and and research and 

1031
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:35,880
bring it to life. 
And I want to talk about 

1032
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,640
hysteria first. 
This is something that's always 

1033
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:41,880
fascinated me, even myself. 
I've had what you could call 

1034
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:47,080
psychosomatic symptoms. 
Talk a little bit about how 

1035
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:54,120
these how psychosomatic symptoms
or hysterical symptoms when 

1036
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,760
they're not a neurological 
illness, How is it, how is it 

1037
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,480
happening? 
What is the What is the 

1038
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,240
mechanism of hysterical 
blindness? 

1039
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,760
Or yeah. 
This is a really common 

1040
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,440
phenomenon for neurologists, in 
fact for doctors working in all 

1041
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:12,440
areas of medicine, but but it's 
certainly very common for 

1042
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,360
neurologists. 
So getting on for 1/3 of what we

1043
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:19,240
see in clinic and and in the 
emergency room turns out not to 

1044
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:23,840
be explained by disease, but to 
have a broadly psychological 

1045
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,240
explanation. 
And many cases will will fit 

1046
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,760
within the the remit of what 
used to be called hysteria. 

1047
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,960
That's that's become a somewhat 
pejorative term and the 

1048
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,000
politically correct time is now 
functional neurological 

1049
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,760
disorder, which has its 
advantages and disadvantages. 

1050
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:43,880
But to give a specific example, 
somebody who appears to be 

1051
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,560
having a an epileptic fit who 
may even be admitted to hospital

1052
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,680
because the the initial 
impression has been of of a 

1053
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,760
prolonged seizure may turn out 
not not to be, but to be having 

1054
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,800
what's called a dissociative 
attack or what is a psychogenic 

1055
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,280
seizure. 
An attack which looks looks very

1056
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,680
like an epileptic seizure but 
but simply isn't when you record

1057
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,040
brain activity you don't see. 
The the signature of epilepsy, 

1058
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,240
you see essentially normal, 
normal wakeful activity. 

1059
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,680
I describe in the in the book a 
patient I encountered when I was

1060
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:19,840
a young urologist who had a 
disabling spasm in in one leg, 

1061
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,040
which one of my senior 
colleagues then induced by 

1062
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,480
rubbing one shoulder and 
relieved by rubbing the opposite

1063
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,280
shoulder. 
So often suggestion is quite 

1064
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:30,880
powerful in the, in the context 
of, of these disorders, but 

1065
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,560
they're, they're common, they're
often disabling and they are 

1066
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,840
really rather mysterious and 
they, they often excite strong 

1067
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:44,280
emotions in doctors. 
So when doctors discover that 

1068
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,480
there actually isn't an 
underlying disease, the response

1069
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:52,240
can be one of, of indignation. 
There is a risk and it's a risk 

1070
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,160
that has to be avoided at all 
costs really, of blaming people 

1071
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:59,040
for having such disorders 
because all the current evidence

1072
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,320
suggests that people are not 
aware that they are 

1073
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:03,680
manufacturing them. 
They're not aware that they're 

1074
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:06,880
putting anything on, though it 
is rather as if they were. 

1075
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,320
So that's so they're, they're a 
puzzle, these disorders. 

1076
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:14,080
And in the book I suggest that 
that three key elements are 

1077
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,240
involved and the third of them 
is relevant to imagination. 

1078
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,200
So first of all is often a 
disturbance of attention. 

1079
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:26,200
So if you focus your attention 
very intensely on any normal 

1080
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,400
activity, it's quite likely to 
go wrong. 

1081
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:33,600
If you try to remember how to 
walk and, and focus very 

1082
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,600
intensely on your walking as 
you're walking, it'll trip you 

1083
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:38,920
up. 
It's, it's, there are all kinds 

1084
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,160
of things that we do very 
successfully automatically that 

1085
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,960
we find really rather hard to do
when we focus our attention on 

1086
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:45,920
them. 
So one of the sources of 

1087
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,400
psychosomatic symptoms seems to 
be excessive attention to a 

1088
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,680
process that that that happens 
perfectly satisfactorily until 

1089
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:56,880
we start paying attention. 
There's often a kind of 

1090
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:00,760
emotional components. 
So many people who develop such 

1091
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:04,680
problems have a background of 
anxiety or depression or trauma.

1092
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:10,120
Sexual abuse has classically 
been one of the sources of 

1093
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,320
hysteria and functional 
neurological disorder. 

1094
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,880
And indeed that that, that that 
is the case. 

1095
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,280
It's not by any means universal,
but it's but it's certainly in 

1096
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,960
the mix. 
But then there's a third 

1097
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,960
element, which was very nicely 
described by a 19th century 

1098
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:27,600
neurologist as illness. 
According to IDEA, you have a, a

1099
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:32,040
notion of an illness which 
perhaps you've seen because 

1100
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,840
we're close relative has 
suffered from it, perhaps a 

1101
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,160
friend has had it and you're 
terrified that you may develop 

1102
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:43,200
it and you kind of bring the 
disorder into being as a 

1103
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:47,320
consequence of your imaginative 
preoccupation with it. 

1104
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:53,560
So I, I, I tell the story or I, 
I report a case in the book 

1105
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:55,960
described by that 19th century 
urologist who was called Russell

1106
01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:01,280
Reynolds of a, of a young woman 
who had cared for her father, 

1107
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,400
who'd fallen on hard times, had 
to return to work unexpectedly 

1108
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:08,960
and had a stroke. 
And she then had to living and 

1109
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,600
look after him. 
And she became preoccupied with 

1110
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,240
the, the possibility that she 
might have a stroke. 

1111
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,240
And then lo and behold, suddenly
she loses the power in her legs 

1112
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:25,080
and she's successfully 
rehabilitated by by Russell 

1113
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:27,800
Reynolds using sort of a 19th 
century approach, which is 

1114
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,400
essentially a kind of 
multidisciplinary rehabilitation

1115
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:36,560
with a mix of physiotherapy and,
and, and psychotherapy. 

1116
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,880
And that's certainly a kind of 
imaginative preoccupation with 

1117
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,000
an illness, a set of symptoms 
can bring it into being. 

1118
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:48,160
You kind of you. 
You predict your own your your 

1119
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,880
affliction in into existence. 
I remember reading a book by a 

1120
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:56,160
neurologist I think recently it 
was called Is It All in My Head?

1121
01:03:56,240 --> 01:04:01,800
And there was a big exploration 
on on like social contagions. 

1122
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:07,880
And I think there was recently, 
like on TikTok, there were like 

1123
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:13,360
influencers who were, that had 
Tourette's syndrome and they 

1124
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,320
were kind of exploring their 
Tourette's, their symptoms. 

1125
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:20,000
And then like users who didn't 
have Tourette's started 

1126
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:24,680
developing Tourette's symptoms, 
which is a like a psychogenic 

1127
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:27,640
disorder in that case. 
Yeah, we're very good learners, 

1128
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:29,400
aren't we? 
We're, we're, we're, we're very,

1129
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:33,200
we're we're a highly imitative, 
highly mimetic species. 

1130
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:34,960
It's it's, it's often to our 
advantage. 

1131
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,760
But in this particular context, 
it can be to our disadvantage. 

1132
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,720
And just to re emphasize, most 
people with functional 

1133
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,240
neurological disorder are just 
as puzzled as as their doctors 

1134
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,320
are. 
So it's, you know, it it, it's 

1135
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:51,600
not a deliberate simulation, 
it's the the processes which 

1136
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,440
give rise to it are happening 
somehow below the threshold of 

1137
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,680
consciousness as as a rule. 
Yeah, I mean, I remember it was 

1138
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,040
like 10 years ago when I 
developed low back pain for 

1139
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,560
several months, and it was 
beyond my understanding. 

1140
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,240
I got through everything at it, 
you know, from physical therapy 

1141
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:10,240
to psychotherapy. 
And it turns out just the 

1142
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:14,680
intense preoccupation with it, 
with my back, with the pain was 

1143
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:18,480
driving the disorder. 
And I wonder too, if you want to

1144
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,880
talk about some curative 
elements here which you've 

1145
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,880
explored, which is just the 
power of distraction, pulling 

1146
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,960
yourself out of the 
preoccupation, the fixation, the

1147
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:30,360
focus can in and of itself be 
curative. 

1148
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,440
I, I've said this before to 
someone, to a friend where they 

1149
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:40,840
had always had like GI symptoms,
very much like irritable bowel 

1150
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:44,480
syndrome. 
They said, like they are always 

1151
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,200
very kind of aware of their 
guts. 

1152
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,320
They're all, they're always just
kind of focused on it, you know,

1153
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,720
and, and I wondered out loud, 
like, could that have something 

1154
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,320
to do with it? 
Could you try to forget it? 

1155
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,680
Could you try to break that? 
Could you try to uncouple that? 

1156
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,080
And that in and of itself might 
be helpful. 

1157
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:05,200
And that just more or less falls
on deaf ears, unfortunately. 

1158
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,560
You know, it is a it is a good 
insight and actually could be 

1159
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:11,080
very therapeutic, but it's just 
not helpful. 

1160
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:15,160
I'm sure you experience this all
the time in clinic, which is. 

1161
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:17,360
You need to find some positive 
strategy. 

1162
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:21,760
So there are many examples in in
treatment of a functional 

1163
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,040
neurological disorder. 
I think 1 I mentioned in the 

1164
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:29,080
book a colleague treated a 
patient who had become honest 

1165
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:33,840
unable to to walk but forwards, 
but when asked to walk 

1166
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:38,160
backwards, found you could do so
and asked to imagine skating, 

1167
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,080
found you could do so. 
I have a lovely video of of 

1168
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:43,320
another the young teacher who'd 
become unable to walk but when 

1169
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:45,680
she was put on a treadmill found
she could run. 

1170
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:51,280
So as soon as, as soon as the 
activity was very little in a 

1171
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:53,240
way which. 
Did that break the spell? 

1172
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:54,800
Yeah, it broke the spell. 
It broke the spell. 

1173
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,440
And they could walk again. 
With with a bit of from a physio

1174
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:03,040
yeah yeah. 
So full recovery is entirely, 

1175
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:09,640
entirely possible, but you need,
you need skilled help from 

1176
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:13,440
people who understand the, the 
mechanisms of, of this kind of 

1177
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:16,200
process and, and you, and what 
you don't need is to be told 

1178
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:18,000
that it's all in your head and 
you should put yourself together

1179
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,080
because that doesn't work. 
That's very invalidating, and it

1180
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,520
tends to drive people away, I 
think, from the healing process.

1181
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:27,320
Yeah. 
The last part of the 

1182
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:31,560
conversation is, is, you know, 
you putting together a book, You

1183
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:35,400
said you thought about this many
years ago before you even 

1184
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:39,760
started studying a Fantasia. 
I just wonder, you know, how was

1185
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:43,320
the experience of going from 
clinician and research scientist

1186
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,760
to writing Popular Science? 
Like, why not everybody makes 

1187
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:47,800
that leap. 
You did. 

1188
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:49,960
How was it and and why did you 
want to do it? 

1189
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,240
So I, I love writing. 
I came, I, I have a way of 

1190
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:57,080
background in literature that 
was a particular interest at 

1191
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,760
school. 
So I've always been very, very 

1192
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,040
happy to, to have opportunities 
to write. 

1193
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:04,840
I've written a couple of books 
previously, one about 

1194
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:07,800
consciousness and another kind 
of introduction to the brain 

1195
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:11,600
level by level from atom to 
psyche with a case history at 

1196
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,080
each level of description. 
So I knew, I knew that I enjoyed

1197
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,240
writing. 
This particular book had been in

1198
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:20,479
my mind probably for 20 years 
and I've had one or two full 

1199
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,279
starts. 
And I think actually COVID was a

1200
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,520
help with it because I, I had a 
little bit more, more time than 

1201
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:32,319
usual and was able to focus on 
it in a way I'd, I'd not before.

1202
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:36,200
As you say, the Adventasia 
Adventasia work wasn't the 

1203
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:40,120
initial trigger, but it, but it 
helped, I think, because it, it 

1204
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:43,640
meant that I was thinking about 
imagery and imagination in my 

1205
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:50,279
research as well as in my sort 
of more philosophical moments at

1206
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:52,760
leisure. 
And I, I enormously enjoy 

1207
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,840
writing. 
I'm always happiest when I have 

1208
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:56,479
something to tinker with. 
I think it's a bit like having a

1209
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:57,720
shed at the bottom of the 
garden, isn't it? 

1210
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,720
You can, you can take yourself 
off and lose yourself in in the 

1211
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,720
project in a very therapeutic 
way. 

1212
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:08,319
Even if we don't get all the 
things we want, like we can only

1213
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:12,760
make art for money or that's all
we can do, or we don't achieve 

1214
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:16,120
the level of, you know, 
notoriety that we might want, we

1215
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:19,439
have something to do. 
We have somewhere to go to put 

1216
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:21,160
our mind to forget about our 
problems. 

1217
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:26,279
That in and of itself is 
medicine, and perhaps one reason

1218
01:09:26,279 --> 01:09:30,399
why we make art is to make life 
a little easier to live and or 

1219
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:32,479
at least forget about how hard 
it can be. 

1220
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,720
It allows moments of flow which 
which are very rewarding. 

1221
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:37,560
It's, it's intrinsically 
rewarding, isn't it? 

1222
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:39,720
Yeah. 
And I think it was the 

1223
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:41,920
creativity researcher Mikhail 
Chiksen. 

1224
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:45,640
Yeah, he wrote a famous book on 
creativity and this Ted talk, he

1225
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:48,319
talked about how the more 
moments of flow you have, the 

1226
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:53,319
happy you are scientifically to 
kind of close, maybe close with 

1227
01:09:53,319 --> 01:09:57,240
a bit of lessons you learned 
from exploring human 

1228
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:01,120
imagination. 
So much of this exploration is 

1229
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:03,920
like the double edged sword 
nature of it all. 

1230
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,560
We can dislocate ourselves from 
the present, which allows us to 

1231
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:12,680
plan and, you know, you know, 
imagine future scenarios, but it

1232
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:16,840
can also lead us Into Darkness. 
We can become preoccupied with 

1233
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:18,720
traumatic events and so on and 
so forth. 

1234
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:22,720
So how do we get a better 
control on our imagination? 

1235
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:26,320
How can we get the best of it 
without while avoiding our our 

1236
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:28,280
pitfalls? 
I wonder if you thought about 

1237
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:30,520
that in the process. 
Yeah, I mean, that's really a 

1238
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,920
general question about mental 
hygiene really, rather than 

1239
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:39,400
imagination specifically. 
I think, I think we just, we, we

1240
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:43,400
all of us have somehow to, to 
walk this, this tightrope. 

1241
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:48,280
We need, we all of us need 
satisfaction in the present. 

1242
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:51,120
We all of us need to enjoy the 
here and now. 

1243
01:10:51,440 --> 01:10:55,120
But I don't think any human life
would be complete if we were 

1244
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:56,800
entirely immersed in the 
present. 

1245
01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:00,480
We need to have a a sense of 
where we come from and where we 

1246
01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:04,080
are going. 
So we somehow need to apportion 

1247
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:08,040
our lives between present 
enjoyment and long term 

1248
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:10,520
possibility. 
I agree with what you said 

1249
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:15,640
earlier about the, the kind of 
toggling that we all learn to 

1250
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:21,240
achieve in, in creative pursuits
between a receptive state in 

1251
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:27,680
which we, we, we kind of lower a
bucket down into the, into the 

1252
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:31,280
well of our unconscious and a 
more active state in which we, 

1253
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:35,280
we examine what comes up and see
what kind of use we, we, we can 

1254
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,000
make of it. 
And I guess we have to toggle in

1255
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:41,640
the same way between present 
enjoyment and longer term 

1256
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:44,920
projects. 
So I think it's a it's a big 

1257
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:46,480
human challenge. 
I don't think there's any simple

1258
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,320
simple answer. 
Oh no, you've picked a very 

1259
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:52,000
complicated topic so there is no
simple answer. 

1260
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:55,840
It kind of makes me think of 
maybe what meditation is for. 

1261
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:59,360
It's the idea of just getting a 
like a look at your own mind, 

1262
01:11:59,960 --> 01:12:02,200
watching it, so to speak. 
Watch the watcher. 

1263
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:06,120
Developing that awareness of 
yourself and your own thinking 

1264
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:11,560
processes maybe is a goal here 
so that you can see, oh, maybe 

1265
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,760
I've been spending a little too 
much time dislocated from the 

1266
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:19,680
present, or maybe I should be in
my head a little bit more using 

1267
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,520
it, using its powers. 
But to just see both, to just 

1268
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:24,960
see where you are in the 
proportions and if I had. 

1269
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:31,240
Any key takeaways, insights from
from the the the research that 

1270
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:33,560
the book involved? 
And I, I think there, there were

1271
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,080
two things really. 
One, I am, you know, as we all 

1272
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:41,600
should be hugely impressed by 
the astonishing creativity of 

1273
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,720
human minds. 
It's human creativity is 

1274
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:48,120
irrepressible and we're 
surrounded by it. 

1275
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,640
And it's, it really is, is 
something to celebrate. 

1276
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:56,280
And at the same time, I, I'm, I 
was impressed by the, the 

1277
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,680
ubiquitous creativity of our 
experience moment to moment. 

1278
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,040
So I really, I, I really do 
believe that even if we're not 

1279
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:05,120
at all engaged in, in creative 
pursuits, we are performing a 

1280
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,120
kind of active creation in every
moment of our lives. 

1281
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:12,760
And I was, I closed the book 
with a, a graffiti which I came 

1282
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:14,400
across as I was jogging through 
London. 

1283
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,640
I was sort of musing on, on the 
book's themes. 

1284
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:18,520
And I just found this on, on a 
wall. 

1285
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:22,640
I wish I could show you when you
are lonely or in distress, the 

1286
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:27,160
shining light of your own being 
written, I think, by an Iranian 

1287
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:31,480
poet in the 15th century or so. 
So I I do believe all of us 

1288
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:36,320
contain a kind of shining light 
which underlies our creative 

1289
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,480
experience of the world from 
moment to moment. 

1290
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:40,680
And if we had a better kind of 
complexity detector in our 

1291
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:44,720
heads, we'd be astonished by the
complexity that each of us 

1292
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:48,000
contains within. 
Within his head, or her head I 

1293
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:49,760
should say. 
I literally was going to read 

1294
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:52,280
that that quote out. 
It's great. 

1295
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:56,920
Great way to to conclude it. 
It makes me think of the Camus 

1296
01:13:57,160 --> 01:13:59,280
code. 
I think, you know, in a, in a, 

1297
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:05,120
in a winter, there is a, an 
infinite light or infinite 

1298
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:08,000
summer or something like that. 
Yeah. 

1299
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:11,480
And what are you working on 
next? 

1300
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,320
These imagery extremes. 
So I'm I'm planning to write a 

1301
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:16,640
book about Adventasia and 
Adventasia, which have opened 

1302
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:21,440
all kinds of interesting windows
which which I want to decline 

1303
01:14:21,440 --> 01:14:26,760
through very much enjoying my 
conversations with people who 

1304
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:29,360
lack imagery or or have it in in
abundance. 

1305
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:33,440
I think it's it's a topic which 
takes you rather quickly to a 

1306
01:14:33,440 --> 01:14:35,400
quite intimate place in people's
lives. 

1307
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:39,560
In how they perceive the world 
and how it differs and that 

1308
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:42,200
there was variation we we 
weren't aware of. 

1309
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:44,360
Basically we thought we all 
thought the same. 

1310
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,240
Turns out that was that was not 
right. 

1311
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:50,040
Let us know where we can get 
your book. 

1312
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:53,480
Let us know where we can follow 
your work and find you online. 

1313
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,960
I think from from next week it's
it's the the shape of things 

1314
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:58,960
unseen. 
A new Science of Imagination 

1315
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:00,960
will be published in Pick back 
in February. 

1316
01:15:01,440 --> 01:15:03,360
You can't visit a personal 
website. 

1317
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:07,800
I have an academic one. 
The work on extreme imagery has 

1318
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:12,080
been under the auspices of the 
Eyes Mind Project as we've 

1319
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,560
called it, so there is an Eyes 
Mind Project website, University

1320
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:16,320
of Edinburgh, so if you're 
interested in finding out more 

1321
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:19,240
about that particular line of 
work, you'll find plenty there. 

1322
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:21,240
Well, I'm looking forward to 
your next book. 

1323
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:25,680
I, I can't wait to read it. 
And thank you so much for coming

1324
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:28,240
on to talk about The Shape of 
Things Unseen. 

1325
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:29,920
And I really appreciate your 
time. 

1326
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:36,200
I. 
Hope you enjoyed this 

1327
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:37,920
conversation with Doctor Adam 
Zeeman. 

1328
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:41,520
If you enjoyed this episode, 
consider sharing it with someone

1329
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:45,000
and starting a conversation. 
And if you've got a minute, I've

1330
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:47,520
got a new survey up and I'd love
your feedback on the show. 

1331
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:52,960
Just head to 
www.curiouslypod.com/survey. 

1332
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:56,520
Tell me what you like, what you 
don't like, what you want more 

1333
01:15:56,520 --> 01:16:00,200
of, what you want less of, or 
read every response and there's 

1334
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:02,880
a good chance your feedback will
shape future episodes. 

1335
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:05,240
Thanks again for listening and 
stay tuned for more 

1336
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:07,320
conversations with people and 
meet along the way.