This hearing of the Subcommittee on Delivering on Government
Efficiency will come to order. Welcome everyone.
Without objection, the Chair may declare A recess at any time.
I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement. Good afternoon and welcome
everyone. I would like to start by playing
a video of why we are here today, so if we can go ahead and
play that please. Where's our digital team?
Here we go.
Get a border to ban men from playing in women's sports that.
There are only two sexes, male and female, and we are not going
to tolerate biological men competing in sports or impeding
in private spaces for women like myself or you.
The female fencer was given the ultimate punishment for refusing
to compete against a biological man.
Of the Portland Interscholastic Week Championships, a trans
sophomore runner for McDaniel High School, and Thomas pulling
away over the final one. Men should not be They're
hurting women. They're hurting women very
badly. They're hurting women.
I was severely injured in a high school volleyball game by a
transgender athlete on the opposing.
Anyone who disobeys federal law will be either prosecuted soon
or say goodbye to your federal funding.
I also signed an. Female athletes should never be
forced to compete against mentally ill biological men who
parade around in women's clothes.
But we'll hear from witnesses today who had to face off
against biological male competitors.
This LED 1 to suffer a life altering physical injury from a
volleyball spike to her head. The other was thrown out of a
recent fencing competition for refusing to compete against a
man. Why is this happening when we
have federal laws on the books intended to foster women's
sports? Back in 1972, Congress adopted
Title 9 to create and protect equal athletic opportunity for
girls and women in schools and colleges.
Congress included similar language in legislation
governing other amateur sports competitions.
The law chartering the US Olympic and Paralympic
Committee, for instance, authorizes the Olympic Committee
to recognize and empower national governing bodies to
oversee individual sports on a national level.
That includes determining how athletes are chosen to represent
the US in the Olympic Games and other international
competitions. These Ng BS such as USA Fencing
have statutory duties and obligations, including promoting
equal athletic opportunity for women, biological women
specifically Ng BS are to provide equitable support and
encouragement for participation by women.
We're separate programs for male and female athletes are
conducted on a national basis. Yet USA Fencing makes a mockery
out of women's fencing by allowing biological males to
compete in its women's fence fencing competitions.
We understand there are roughly 200 biological males competing
in the USA Fencing women's division.
This includes males who have won national titles and represented
the US and international competition in women's fencing.
We subpoenaed the Board Chair of USA Fencing Fencing, Damian
Lafelt, to appear here today. We did so because the Board is
responsible for setting USA Fencing policies and for
ensuring those policies comply with federal law.
At a recent board meeting where Mr. Lay felt presided, the board
determined it would change its policy on transgender athletes
if and only if forced to do so. Some science shows that men have
numerous physical advantages over women that create unfair
and potentially dangerous competitions.
Such physical advantages are significant in fencing,
according to a letter we received from USA Fencing board
member Andre Jeeva, a coach of Olympians and world champions.
Quote transgender women. Fencers have significant
advantages in women's competitions, he writes, citing
advantages in body size, reach, shoulder width, muscle
development, explosive strength and recovery cap capacity.
And a United Nations report issued last year finds that
testosterone suppression does not eliminate the advantage of
biological males. To avoid the loss of a fair
opportunity, it concludes, males must not compete in female
categories of sport. But it's not surprising that the
USA Fencing policy on trans competitors ignores the science.
The board is not shy about putting politics ahead of the
sport, ahead of women and ahead of the law, and selecting sites
for its national fencing events. For instance, the board policy
is to avoid states whose laws and policies on LGBTQ rights and
abortion it opposes. It uses equality maps to
determine which states to blacklist from its competition
competitions and which states to favor.
This ends up favoring a lot of blue States and harming a lot of
red ones. So it creates politically
determined winners and losers, but it has absolutely nothing to
do with fencing and it contradicts USA Fencing
statutory duty as an NGB to develop interests and
participation throughout the United States and fencing.
Recently, the board even voted against playing the national
anthem at its events. So we shouldn't be surprised
that the board opposed the creation of an all female task
force to re evaluate its transgender policy and it has
never surveyed its membership. One simple question, do you
support transgender athletes competing in women's
competitions? Notably, Americans broadly have
been pulled on that question and the response is overwhelming.
A New York Times it's this poll this past January found 94% of
Republicans, 67% of Democrats and 64% of independents agree
keep men out of women's sports. Americans also re elected
President Trump in November, and he spoke on their behalf in
February when he issued his executive order keeping men out
of women's sports. the United States is hosting the Summer
Games in Los Angeles in 2028. It's a great time for us to once
again take the lead in protecting and preserving the
ability of women to engage in safe, fair athletic competition
by keeping biological men out of women's sports, a United Nations
report issued last August. Most noted noted female athletes
worldwide have lost out on numerous metal opportunities due
to policies allowing males to compete in the women's category.
More than 600 female athletes and more than 400 competitions
have lost more than 890 medals in 29 different sports.
I don't want any more women missing out on metal
opportunities, avoiding athletic competitions or missing out on
college scholarships. And I don't want to see any more
girls or women getting hurt. We cannot and should not forget
the gruesome injury suffered by one of our witnesses here today,
Peyton McNabb. It happened when she was spiked
in the head by a male athlete who identified as a transgender
woman. And I'd like to ask the digital
team to please play this video. Now
that is sick. This is why I look forward to
fighting and winning the battle to keep men out of women's
sports alongside President Trump and brave women like Stephanie
and Peyton who are here today. Now you're going to hear from
our Democrat colleagues who are going to fight for these
mentally ill biological men to continue beating women and
stealing their their competitions, stealing their
medals and stealing their national championships.
And with that, I yield to the Ranking Member Stansbury for her
opening statement. All right.
Well, thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
As you can see, it's going to be an interesting hearing today.
Welcome to the Oversight Committee and in particular the
Doge subcommittee. I do want to say welcome to our
guests and to your families. We do appreciate all of you
coming here to tell your stories.
But I want to make clear that this hearing isn't actually not
about oversight or Doge, but about spreading hate and using
trans lives to distract from the real issues that Americans are
facing, from attacks on our economy to attacks on our
democracy to attacks on our communities.
So let's call this hearing what it actually is.
It's about bullying trans kids and members of the trans
community to distract from the failed policies of the Trump
administration, the failed policies and exploitation of
this Doge subcommittee and the GOP.
His own cruel agenda that is happening right now here on
Capitol Hill as they're trying to gut Medicaid, gut food
assistance, gut environment, governmental programs to give
tax breaks to billionaires. Because that is actually what's
going on behind these doors all around us.
So as the ranking member of this subcommittee, let me start by
saying to everyone in the trans and LGBTQ plus community who
might be watching or listening today that we see you, we love
you, we respect you, we are fighting for you, and we will
fight back against this hateful agenda.
Now, I do want to point out here at the outset that we are in
fact, in the oversight subcommittee on, quote UN quote,
delivering on government efficiency.
And this is a committee here in Congress that was created this
year by the GOP supposedly to address government efficiency.
And this hearing literally has nothing to do with that.
In fact, it has nothing to do with anything that falls under
the Oversight and Accountability Committee's jurisdiction.
This hearing is so irrelevant to this committee.
It's just a complete. Distraction from what is
actually happening in Congress right now.
So let's review what this subcommittee is actually
supposed to be working on, since my friends seem to have
forgotten that in their own rule, Rule 6 of this committee,
this subcommittee shall, quote, have oversight jurisdiction over
the federal civil service, including compensation,
classification, benefits, federal property disposal,
government reorganization and operation, transparency,
performance, grants management, and accounting measures
generally. That is the jurisdiction of this
committee. And I don't know about any of
you, but I don't see anything in here about sports, the Olympics,
Title 9, fencing, and certainly nothing about policing the
bodies of Americans. And frankly, hearings of this
subcommittee have become so divorced from reality or
anything resembling oversight in the jurisdiction of this
committee, it's basically turned into a political campaign ad, as
you just saw on these TV's. That's what this this, that's
what this subcommittee has devolved into.
And frankly, I think many of us expected that that's where we
would end up. But meanwhile, Donald Trump is
letting Elon Musk and his cabinet secretaries and OMB now
continue to dismantle our federal agencies to hack our
private data. They're firing veterans and
teachers and firefighters. They're trying to break Social
Security security in the VA, and there is literally no oversight
happening here in this committee under the GOP.
In fact, my colleagues have failed to bring even a single
administration witness here to this committee.
They haven't brought Elon Musk, they haven't brought a cabinet
secretary, they haven't brought a political, they haven't
brought anyone to this committee to answer to the lawless and
immoral behavior that's happening inside the
administration or anything that relates to the jurisdiction of
this committee. That's why, even though we had
hoped on the Democratic side for real and meaningful bipartisan
work to make the government more efficient, to make it work
better for Americans, we have to sit here week after week and
fight back against this abusive and lawless and ridiculous
agenda. And, you know, I want to just
point out that there are now over 220 lawsuits against the
Trump administration and over 130 court restraining orders and
injunctions against them because of this agenda.
So why did the chairwoman decide to call this hearing today?
Why is it that we're trying to distract from an agenda that is
so unpopular that 2/3 of Americans disprove of what Doge
and Elon Musk is doing? Maybe it has something to do
with the failure of the president in the 1st 100 days
that his approval ratings have declined by 14%.
Maybe it's to distract from the the reality that our economy is
tanking and prices are going up. Maybe it's because the budget
that came to Congress last week double s down on proposals to
take food out of the mouths of children.
Maybe it's because behind closed doors all around us, they're
trying to take away your Medicaid and your food
assistance. So why bully trans kids?
Why? Why take up airspace to bully a
population that only makes up 0.6% of the population?
Because clearly they're living rent free in the GOP's minds.
But Simply put, Republicans are focused on the wrong 1%.
So why are they so obsessed? Why is Trump attacking trans
people? Why is this the centerpiece of
the Republicans here on Capitol Hill?
Honestly, it's weird and it's wrong.
And I just want to say to all of the people in the trans
community who are watching, we uplift your stories.
We are fighting for the community.
We are fighting for the rights of everyone in our communities.
And this hearing has absolutely nothing to do with the Oversight
committee. And that is why, at this time, I
make a motion to immediately adjourn this hearing.
The motion is not debatable. All those in favor of adjourning
signify by saying aye, aye. All those opposed signify by
saying no, No, in the opinion of the chair.
The noes have it and the a recorded vote will be asked for.
The clerk will call the roll. We will.
Pause for the clerk to be. Ready.
Yeah, we'll pause for the clerk. A recorded vote is ordered.
The clerk will call the roll. Mr. Cloud.
No. Mr. Cloud votes no.
Mr. Fallon. Mr. Timmons.
Mr. Timmons votes No. Mr. Burchett.
Mr. Burchett votes No. Mr. Burleson.
Mr. Burleson votes no, Mister Jack.
No. Mister Jack votes no, Mr. Gill.
Mr. Gill votes no. Mr. Comer.
Mr. Comer votes no. Miss Norton.
Yes. Miss Norton votes yes, Mr.
Lynch. Mr. Lynch votes aye.
Mr. Garcia, Yes. Mr. Garcia votes yes, Mr. Kasar.
Yes. Mr. Kasar votes yes.
Miss Crockett Yes. Miss Crockett Votes yes Miss
Stansbury. Miss Stansbury votes yes.
Miss Green. No.
Miss Green votes no. The clerk will report the tally.
Mr. Miss, Chairwoman, on this vote the aye, the Nos are 7, the
ayes are 6. The Nos have it and the motion
to adjourn is not agreed to. Also pursuant to Committee Rule
6A2, Chairman Comer refers specific responsibility for the
matter of this Dodge Subcommittee hearing regarding
USA Fencing hearing to Chairman Green and the Subcommittee on
delivering on Government efficiency.
This hearing is directly under our jurisdiction.
Without objection, Representatives McClain of
Michigan, Mace of South Carolina, Crane of Arizona,
Randall of Washington, Jacobs of California and Simon of
California are waved on to the Subcommittee for the purpose of
questioning the witnesses at today's committee hearing.
I have a chair appoint A parliamentary inquiry.
What's your inquiry? Could you please further expound
about how this falls under the jurisdiction of the of the
Subcommittee and the Rules? Miss Stansbury, under Committee
Rule 6A2, the Chairman Comer of the Oversight Committee has
referred responsibility for this hearing to the Dodge
Subcommittee hearing regarding USA Fencing.
So Chairman Comer is changing the rules so that now fencing
hearings fall under Department of Government efficiency.
OK, this is the rule book right here, Miss Stansbury.
I'm sure you have a copy of it, the number 2.
Fencing to this subcommittee. #2 In addition, each subcommittee
shell have specific responsibility for such other
measures or matters as the Chair of the committee refers to it.
And this is the hearing that we are having and jurisdiction
over. It's an important issue that
biological men stay out of women's sports and we'd like to
hold the hearing on that today. And we're going to continue and
go ahead. I'm pleased to introduce our
witnesses today. Stephanie Turner is a
competitive fencer who recently took a knee at AUSA fencing
event to avoid facing a biological male in a women's
event. Peyton McNabb is a former high
school athlete and now an ambassador for independent women
who was injured by a biological man in a high school volleyball
game. Damian Lefelt is the Chairman of
the Board of directors at USA Fencing, a recognized national
governing body for fencing under the US Olympic and Paralympic
Committee as codified in the Ted Stevens Act Fatima Goss Graves
is the president, chief executive officer of the
National Women's Law Center. I want to thank you all for
being here to testify today pursuant to Committee Rule 9.
G. The witnesses will please stand
and raise their right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm
that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the
affirmative. Thank you.
You may take a seat. We appreciate you being here
today and look forward to your testimony.
Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statement and they will appear in full in the hearing record.
Please limit your oral statement to 5 minutes.
As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in
front of you so that it is on and the members can hear you.
When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn
green. After 4 minutes the light will
turn yellow. When the red light comes on,
your 5 minutes have expired and we would ask that you please
wrap up. I now recognize Miss Turner for
her opening statements. Good afternoon, Chairwoman Green
and Ranking Member Stansbury and members of the committee.
It's a privilege to be invited here to speak to you today.
I started fencing at the University of Maryland College
Club team 12 years ago and became a competitive and became
competitive within the United States Fencing Association a
year later. What started as a hobby quickly
became a deep passion of mine. In these past 12 years, I
estimate that I've spent over 7000 hours training and over
$100,000 between lessons, club dues, competition fees,
equipment, and travel. I have dedicated a significant
portion of my life to the sport and competition because like
thousands of other women, I love it.
My favorite part of fencing is the competition.
The thrill, the fight, the triumph and even the heartache.
But lately, fair female only competition is harder and harder
to come by. USA Fencing has over 200 self
declared members who identify as transgender.
Each time a man competes in the women's category.
With USA Fencing's support, it removes fair sport and takes
opportunities from women. Fencing is a combat sport, a
martial art of sorts. These are out.
There are elements of speed, power, reaction time, distance
control, footwork and blade work, all attributes affected by
sex development. It's not uncommon for a quicker,
more athletic opponent to overcome the technique of
another fencer. Athleticism is powerful in
fencing and works in equal parts with strategy and technique.
It's unbelievably demeaning to female fencers to put down the
differences between men and women and any woman's loss to a
man as a skill issue or that a woman simply needs to work
harder. Within the USA Fencing
authoritative body, there is a culture of intimidation towards
women which demands that we be silent when men enter our
tournaments, a culture that includes public humiliation,
doxing, social ostracism, dismissal, and even threats.
I went from avoiding tournaments with known male athletes to
reaching out to news outlets to get this story known.
The USA Fencing up until my protest, has been unresponsive
to women's demands for fair fencing and instead doubled down
on efforts to promote male inclusion in the female
category. One month ago I took a knee in
protest to a man competing in my category Division 1A Women's
Oil, ironically held at the University of Maryland where my
fencing career began, and the video of my protest went viral.
The story of that knee began 3 years ago when I contacted icons
out of desperation for numerous men taking women's national and
world titles. Leadership was not only ignoring
women, but encouraging and glorifying these men.
It felt like there was no place for women in USA Fencing.
It took me nearly three years to get up the courage to come out
publicly. That me, I took in protest was a
cry for help and an act of desperation.
The night before the tournament, I saw Redmond Sullivan's name on
the registration list. I recognized his name from a
Redux article as a male fencer within Wagner College, Wagner
College's men's team, who switched to the women's NCAA
team and the women's USA Fencing division.
I cried the whole night and again felt betrayed by USA
Fencing. I had already spent the money on
competition fees and new equipment and spent hours
training and refurbishing my equipment, and I had traveled
down from Philadelphia, PA to College Park, MD, the night
before in preparation for that tournament.
I felt trapped. I had been defrauded of a
women's tournament and sold a lie by USA Fencing.
This was hardly the first time I faced fencing a man in a woman's
in a woman's competition. In previous instances, I would
wait until the last minute to register for a tournament to see
if any known men would register. If they did, I would not sign
up. I missed out on numerous
regional and national tournaments.
I did not want to keep abandoning opportunities to
advance my fencing. I had felt so isolated and
strangled by USA Fencing for disagreeing with his transgender
policy that I felt scared to speak openly online or with
friends in the fencing community.
I reached out to a church friend asking what I should do.
We prayed together and asked God if it is his will that I protest
that he pair me with Redmond in about that following day.
The next morning I found myself on the platform against him and
I stood down. Speaking out on this issue has
made me a target for harassment and violence, as well as cost me
friends. I have decided to step away from
the sport I love, at least for now as well, because USA Fencing
has fostered an environment where I am unwelcome in a cat in
my own category. It is culturally.
It is culturally acceptable to bully and shame women who speak
up. Speak up for other women.
I should not have had to make this sacrifice.
Women deserve to be treated fairly in sport.
We deserve opportunities to train, compete and win in
women's fence in women's category set aside for women.
We deserve this at the lowest levels of sport all the way
through elite Olympic competition.
I hope that by taking a stand and raising awareness of the
misogyny in our sport, I can help ensure other women and
girls do not have to take such risks to receive the most basic
protections in sports. Thank you, Miss Turner.
I now recognize Miss McNabb for her opening statement.
Good afternoon, Chairwoman Green and Ranking Member Sansbury and
members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to
appear today. My name is Peyton McNabb and I'm
a sports ambassador for the Independent Women's Forum.
We are a nonprofit organization that exists to expand support
for policy solutions that actually enhance people's
opportunities and well-being. Independent Women's motto is
tell her story, Change the world.
Today I'm here to share my story.
I'm a female athlete from Murphy, NC who had my my love of
playing sports taken away from me since 2022 following a
serious but avoidable injury. I've been speaking across the
country, sharing my story and advocating for protections for
women and girls, hard earned rights to equal opportunity,
fair play, privacy, and safety. Like many other little girls, I
grew up playing sports. As soon as I could walk, my dad
enrolled me and my siblings in various sports.
I'm incredibly thankful for that because participating in
athletics has afforded me so many life lessons and given me
valuable skills. In high school, I played
volleyball, basketball, and my favorite sport, softball.
I was excited about the prospect of playing softball in college,
but that day never came. My athletic career was hindered
and cut short because I was forced to compete against a male
athlete on an opposing high school women's volleyball team
on September 1st, 2022. I went to this game knowing that
there was a male opponent, but I felt helpless and had no idea
what to do. Neither I, my team, nor the
administration agreed that we should be playing against a
male, but the game went on. Toward the end of the game, the
male athlete went up to spike the ball and it came right at my
face, slamming into my head. The force of the ball knocked me
down unconscious while my body lay in a fencing position on the
court. A fencing position is how your
body reacts to a serious brain injury.
Everything was dark to me. The auditorium was absolutely
quiet, and my teammates were scared.
That was my last day playing volleyball.
Medical professionals informed me and my family of the heavy
news that I suffered A traumatic brain injury, a brain bleed, and
my body was experiencing partial paralysis on my right side.
The doctors couldn't confirm how long it would take for my body
to recover. It could take months or even
years. And they couldn't confirm
whether I'd 100% ever be back while I've learned to navigate
my new normal. There are several challenges
that I deal with on a daily basis.
Severe headaches, balance issues, vision impairment, and
as my parents say, I'm just not the same kid.
It is completely aggravating because the injury I suffered
was 100% avoidable. If only my rights as a female
athlete had been more important than a man's feelings.
Since then, I've chosen to use my voice to advocate for girls
nationwide, especially for my younger sister, Avery.
I've decided to turn my pain into purpose.
I played a role in helping pass the Fairness and Women's Sports
Act in North in North Carolina legislature, although it was
initially vetoed by former Governor Roy Cooper, who
ironically has three daughters of his own.
Since speaking out, I've heard from so many girls.
They see it happening in their schools.
Male athletes competing in women's sports.
The fear of being severely injured by a male athlete who
was undisputedly, on average, bigger, faster, and stronger
than the average female is real. I want you all to know that this
issue is very real. I didn't realize how big it was
until it it personally affected me.
What we are talking about is reality and basic truth.
Men have an inherent biological advantage over women when it
comes to sports. The advantage is particularly
prominent respect to the activities where speed, size,
power strength, or cardio respiratory characteristics
determine performance. Males jump approximately 25%
higher than females. Males throw about 25% further
than females. Males run 11% faster than
females. Males accelerate about 20%
faster than females. Males punch 30 to 162% harder
than females. Males are around 30% stronger
than females on a of equivalent stature and mass.
This is undeniable, and many more biological statistics can
be found. An independent women's
competition report. I was so pleased to be at the
White House on February 5th when President Trump signed the
executive order entitled Keeping Men out of Women's Sports.
Finally, we saw a president act to make sure that sports
competition, sports competition for women is fair and safe.
Now we need laws at the state level that define women and keep
women's sports safe for women. Today there are 27 states that
have legislation protecting women's sports and more than 1/3
of the nation also defines sex based words across their state
laws. 50 states should have this sort of legislation.
I'm so proud of the progress being made in the states that
are protecting their female athletes.
I will continue to speak out about my experience with the
hope that I might be able to protect the next young woman
athlete from being injured. There should never be another
pay in McNabb. Thank you for having this
hearing today so that my story can be shared.
Thank you, Miss McNabb. I now recognize Mr. Layfeld for
his opening statement. Thank you, Chairwoman Green,
Ranking Member Stansbury and other members of the
subcommittee. My name is Damian Liefeld and
since September 2024, I've been the Chair of the Board of
Directors for USA Fencing. I am proud to represent USA
Fencing at today's hearing. I understand USA Fencing CEO,
who has knowledge of the operational day-to-day
activities of the organization, was prepared to testify, but
that the subcommittee preferred I appear instead, as made clear
by its subpoena. I'm pleased to be here and will
do my best to provide you with the information you seek as you
consider this important topic. As you know, USA Fencing is a
national governing body for fencing.
It supports over 700 affiliated clubs and 45,000 members.
Like other sports, fencing promotes confidence and respect,
and it encourages hard work, training and discipline.
I've been the grateful recipient of fencing's benefit for over 30
years. As an A rated competitor, A
referee, and as a coach, I've worked to bring fencing's
benefits to all Americans. Although it was adopted before I
joined the board, USA Fencing's transgender participation policy
had that same goal. We recognize, however, that
gender participation in sports is a complex topic and requires
consideration of numerous viewpoints.
Considerations of safety and fairness are paramount.
I understand that. In developing its transgender
participation policy, USA Fencing drew on its long
experience with mixed gender competition, where men and women
have safely and fairly competed against each other for decades.
USA Fencing also consulted the practices and policies of other
Ng BS as well as those of the IOC.
The USOPC and Fencing's International Federation, known
as the F IE, the IOC and FIE policies were particularly
important. As an N GB, USA Fencing is
governed by the Ted Stevens Act, which forbids Ng BS from
adopting eligibility criteria that are more strict than those
of the Sports International Federation.
The F IE does not ban transgender participation.
As a result, I understand that the consensus among Ng BS,
including USA Fencing, is that a ban on transgender participation
could violate the Ted Stevens Act.
As Chairwoman Green pointed out, I've been a vocal advocate for
transgender participation in fencing.
Those are my own personal views. My actions of Chair, however,
are guarded by the best interests of the organization
and take consideration of the diverse viewpoints held by our
members. I want to emphasize USA
Fencing's commitment to safety and fairness.
I know that in other sports, some athletes have been severely
injured in competition involving transgender athletes.
Any significant injury in competition is a tragedy and my
heart goes out to athletes like Miss McNabb who have suffered
such injuries, but thankfully that hasn't been our experience
in fencing. USA Fencing has long sponsored
mixed gender competition where men and women compete against
each other. Those bouts show that mixed
gender competition, in fencing at least, does not pose any
significant safety risks above and beyond single gender fencing
competition. The same is true for fencing
involving transgender participation.
Additionally, while some attributes more common in men,
such as height and physical strength, can certainly confer
an advantage in a fencing belt, women more commonly exhibit
other advantageous traits such as flexibility and agility.
Ultimately, fencing is a sport of strategy and technique.
Those elements will most frequently determine who
prevails, and when it comes to strategy and technique, neither
sex has an any inherent advantage.
Transgender status thus doesn't appear to confer any inherent
advantage over a cisgender fencer.
Cisgender women have beaten transgender women in 55% of the
bouts for which USA Fencing has data.
I was disappointed to learn that following the Cherry Blossom
Tournament last month, Miss Turner has decided to take a
break from fencing. I hope she will reconsider.
To be clear, USA Fencing has not banned Miss Turner.
She remains free to enter tournaments and free to compete.
Regardless, the response to Miss Turner's bout underscores the
importance of this issue and the need for reasoned discussion.
USA Fencing welcomes that discussion.
There could never be too much conversation about how to make
our sport better. And so I want to be clear that
if the law, research, or international consensus changes,
USA Fencing is prepared to amend its participation requirements.
We have been proactive in this area.
After months of discussion, USA Fencing recently adopted A
contingent transgender participation policy that will
go into effect if the law or regulations change.
I'm happy to answer your questions.
Thank you. I now recognize Miss Goss Graves
for her opening statement. Good afternoon, Chair Green,
Ranking Member Stansberry, and members of the subcommittee.
My name is Fatima Goss Graves, and I'm President and CEO at the
National Women's Law Center. We've been around since 1972,
when Title 9 was first enacted, and we've been working to create
equal opportunity for women and girls in sports and in society
ever since. Women and girls face many
obstacles to equal opportunity in sports.
Fewer financial resources than men's programs.
Worse facilities. Endemic sexual abuse and student
athletes facing these persistent inequities are among the more
than 12,000 people who have complained about discrimination
in school but who actually really can't pursue justice
because the Trump administration has laid off half the staff
whose jobs at the Department of Education it was to respond to
these complaints. Students, including disabled
kids, survivors of campus sexual assault and other forms of
discrimination are now basically in a situation where their
complaints are being warehoused. So for over 50 years, the
National Women's Law Center has been fighting for equality and
will continue to fight until every girl has the same chance
to play as everyone else. And as an expert on women's
rights in sports and in society, I want to be clear here.
Transgender women do not pose a threat to women's sports.
Trans women, gender women belong in sports.
And I'm here because I care about all women and girls in
sport. And I know that bullying trans
kids and creating panic about the existence of trans people
will not make us safer. It won't solve any of the
problems that I named about inequity in sports and the
fixation on harming trans kids. It will not fix the problems of
the American people because of the National Women's Law Center.
We hear from people every day about the real problems that
they are facing. They're concerned about
reproductive freedom. They're struggling to put food
on the table. They're agonizing about how to
care for aging loved ones, hard working folks around the
country, from Texas to Georgia to Tennessee to California.
We hear from folks who are worried that there is a budget
in this Congress that would demolish programs like SNAP,
Head Start, Medicaid, and generally make their lives
harder. And they're looking for an end
to a tax on schools, on healthcare, childcare, on
workplace safety instead. You know, over the last few
years there has been this non-stop effort to convince the
public that including transgender women in sports harm
cisgender women and harms all people in society.
But anti trans sports fans, They actually harm all women.
And I have just a few examples that I want to name.
For example, denying trans kids the chance to find teammates who
have their back, that's harmful. Or harassing black and brown
women and girls for not being, you know, feminine enough that
that's harmful. School officials secretly
investigating girls gender to make sure that they are feminine
enough to play, that is harmful and that is dangerous.
And yes, those things are already happening.
For example, after Utah passed a transports ban, a state school
board member posted a picture of a high school student athlete on
social media suggesting that she was transgender.
She was not. But she faced such intense cyber
bullying and threats to herself and to her family, they had to
actually get police protection. So as president and CEO of the
National Women's Law Center, it could not be more clear to me.
Anti trans bands, they hurt all women.
They're wrong. We won't let them be enacted in
the name of protecting women because they don't protect
women. They harm us all, and it's
discrimination, period. And if the subcommittee wants to
defend women, the National Women's Law Center definitely
has ideas about that, ideas that will actually help, ideas that
will come back. The real threats to women and
girls, safety and equality today, trans women in sports.
It's just not one of them. Thank you.
We will now begin the five minute question period of the
hearing. I would like to remind the
members that Mister Lay Felt is here under a duly issued
subpoena to answer questions at today's hearing.
After refusing to appear voluntarily, I now recognize
myself for 5 minutes for the purpose of asking questions.
No one is here today to harm transgenders.
We are here to defend girls and women, and we are here to defend
Title 9 and to uphold President Trump's executive order that all
biological males stay out of girls and women's sports.
Here displayed behind me is the post that Mister Lafelt put up.
Mr. Lafelt came in here today saying that this is game day.
You're right, Mr. Lafelt, this is game day.
Under the Ted Stevens Act, USA Fencing and other national
governing governing bodies that are authorized to oversee
individual sports on a national level have a certain obligation.
One such duty is to provide support and encouragement for
participation by women where separate programs for male and
female athletes are conducted on a national basis.
Another statutory duty is to promote a safe environment in
sports that is free from abuse of any amateur athlete,
including emotional, physical and sexual abuse, Mr. Lay felt
as the board chair of USA Fencing, surely you were aware
of these legal requirements. That means you believe that
forcing a woman to compete against a biological man
promotes a safe environment that is free from emotional abuse.
Is that correct? One moment, a point of order.
You're not. You're not.
Madam Chair, I have a point of order.
The the document that you have up behind you is a
misrepresentation of the actual post.
It appears that you're trying to misrepresent a witness here who
you use subpoena powers against. Not Miss Stansbury.
Miss Stansbury. This is not a point of order,
Miss Stansbury. You're not recognized, Miss
Stansbury. You're not recognized, Miss
Stansbury. You are not recognized,
Chairwoman. You're you are not.
This is not a point of order, Miss Stansbury.
This is not a point. What the committee does, you are
misrepresenting witnesses, you are misrepresenting policy.
You are Miss. Stansbury, you're not recognized
this, you're not recognized. That's not a point of order.
You're abusing the rules of this committee.
This is the post of Mr. Leyfelt that he posted himself on his
own social media, and that's exactly why we have it displayed
here today, because Mr. Liffelt believes that he can take away
the opportunities for women to compete in USA Fencing and he
thinks this is game day to defend biological men.
Now we're going to return to my time as chair of this committee.
Miss Turner, refusing to compete against a man cost you a 12
month probation. Did you feel you were in a safe
environment free from abuse when you were told you must compete
against a man and an all out competition?
No. No, that wasn't free from
emotional abuse. Miss McNabb, when a biological
man spiked a ball into your head, were you free from
physical or emotional abuse? I was not.
Miss McNabb, did you feel you were placed in a safe
environment when you faced A biological male in a girls
volleyball game? No, I was.
I did not feel safe. Miss Turner, were you safe when
you were forced to go up against a biological male in your sport?
No, I was not. Mr. Leifelt, do you think your
perception of what constitutes a safe environment for women is
more valid than that of a woman testifying here today?
Congresswoman, thank you for your question.
There was a study that was published in 2010 regarding the
safety of sports in the Olympic movement.
There were 51 sports that were assessed as part of that.
That's a yes or no question, Mr. Lefelt, do you feel?
That. Your.
Perception You're sitting next to a young woman who received a
brain injury from a biological male.
Is it safe to compete against biological males?
Yes or no, Mr. Lefelt? What happened to Miss Yes or no?
What happened to Miss McNab? I take.
That as a no. Mr. Lefelt, do you think forcing
a woman to change in front of a man in a locker room is abusive?
Yes or no? Congresswoman, I'm not sure.
Do you want your daughter to change in front of biological
men and and locker rooms? Yes or no?
My my daughter isn't really something that should be.
Part of this, oh, I'm going to, if you're not a quick no on
that, we're going to take that as a no.
We're going to switch gears to USA Fencing site selection
policy. You're the chair of USA Fencing.
You should be familiar, Mr. Liefeld.
What does abortion have to do with fencing?
Congresswoman. That policy was passed before I
got on the board, however. Well, you're the chair of the
board now. What does abortion have to do
with fencing, Mr. Lefelt? I'm on the board.
You're you're correct. And I offered an amendment to
that policy back in December, Congresswoman, that allowed for
more flexibility. At what?
To get an abortion while you're at fencing competitions.
And it also allowed for better convenience, so we enhance the
policy. And by leadership, Planned
Parenthood centers, Mr. Lefelt, why does USA Fencing states
abortion policies and LGBTQ policies in its site selection
process to determine where tournaments are held?
That's part of your site selection process is abortion
availability and and States and cities that are are friendly to
LGBTQ policies. How is that part of USA Fencing?
Congresswoman, we try to have tournaments in sites that are
safe for all of our members. Period.
So you don't think red states are safe for fencing athletes?
Red states are absolutely safe and we regularly host
tournaments there, including Texas, Ohio.
No, your site selection policies are based on abortion
availability, availability and LGBTQ availability, not on on
fencing, not on your sport. Now let's let's go.
Let's go a little bit further with this.
Madam Chairwoman, your time has expired.
You're not recognized, Miss Crockett.
Mr. Lefelt, you wrote a blog post where you said that one day
your daughter. Madam Chair, on a point of
order. This is my time and I'm the
chair of. The no, that was your time.
Your time is over. And now we're asking, are we?
The chair has discretion. I've I've lost time.
I have lost time as. Long as we have that
understanding, that's fine. I've lost time.
I yield 2 1/2 minutes to the chair lady.
Mr. Lafell, you wrote a blog post where you said that one day
your daughter might compete against a transgender woman, a
biological man. You said that if she did, you
might win or she might lose. But whatever the result, you
hope she doesn't care about the outcome because the important
thing is that both she and her opponent enjoy the match.
That's that's what you wrote in your little trans manifesto.
But you came here today to win and you came here today to
defeat women in their own sport. So as you as you stand here
before this committee today, you are a man that would would tell
your daughter to lose and enjoy it to a biological man.
My time has expired. And with that, I recognize Miss
Stansbury to defend all the trans.
Point of order Out of curiosity, is the chairwoman allowed to
editorialize before every speaker on the Democratic side
speaks, or is that part of her time which we know that she went
over? It's not a point of order.
You're taking Miss Stansbury's time.
I know you're trying to be chair of oversight, but it Miss
Stansbury's the ranking member. Chair would be better on this
side, I do agree. With it, it's Miss Stansbury's
time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
As you can see, this is a hearing full of performance
artists, not legislators. To our witnesses and guests, I
do appreciate you coming today, but this is not the venue for
this conversation. And our colleagues know that
across the aisle. That is part of why the
distraction of the gaveling and the yelling and the performance
art is happening here today, because this is not an oversight
hearing. This is not what the
jurisdiction of the Oversight Committee is.
And the chairman and the chairwoman both know that.
And they both know that a little over 100 days ago, when
Republicans were clamoring to show Donald Trump and Elon Musk
that they were going to carry their water here in Congress,
they created this subcommittee to do Elon Musk's bidding.
But now that he is so unpopular that 2/3 of Americans are
opposed to Doge and Elon Musk, the honeymoon is over, my
friends. And So what are they doing with
the Doge subcommittee? They're bullying trans kids.
They're talking about things that have absolutely nothing to
do with government oversight or efficiency or the economy, or
the reality that Donald Trump is tanking the economy and the
reality that Americans are pissed as hell and are marching
in the streets. And they're turning the Dodge
subcommittee into apparently now a fencing oversight committee.
Welcome. We're not even going to call it
the Doge subcommittee anymore. This is called the fencing
oversight committee. Welcome to the fencing oversight
committee. But in reality, we know this is
all about bullying trans kids as they are literally over on the
floor debating renaming the Gulf of Mexico this week because they
have no real agenda other than tanking the economy, taking away
healthcare, taking away food out of the mouths of children, and
basically distracting the American people while they
prepared the largest tax break for billionaires ever in the
history of this country. But it's not enough to just
obsessively talk and think about trans people, which obviously
are living rent free in their minds.
Donald Trump has put into place over a dozen executive orders
and actions bullying trans people here.
This committee is trying to take their own punch.
They're trying to keep trans people from using bathrooms
inside the Capitol. I mean, all of this is part of
their regular playbook. Do really bad, evil things and
then it's distract the American people by by doing ridiculous
things in public spaces like this.
So I am very grateful to Miss Goss Graves for being here to
breakthrough the noise, to talk about real issues that are
affecting our communities. Because among the things that
affect women, girls, all people are the cuts to healthcare, the
cuts to education, the cuts to vital programs that our people
depend on. But what I think is so important
is to highlight the way in which using public spaces like this to
bully trans people creates a lack of safety for the LGBTQ
plus community. And so, Miss Gus Graves, can you
talk about how exactly what's happening here today normalizes
hate and how that translates into violence and hate against
the LGBTQ plus community? You know, this is exactly my
deep worry. Over the last couple of years,
we have seen in states around the country and now in this body
and from the president, using government to attack some of our
most vulnerable people. And the hateful rhetoric
translates to violence. It's trans young people who are
experiencing violence in school, and it also means that we have
seen an increase in incidence of suicide.
So when I think about young people today who may be tuning
in, I want to reaffirm that their existence is OK and that
they are supported. But I also want to say very,
very clearly, even though people have been spun up in this frenzy
that all the problems in the world are apparently now caused
by trans folks existing, that is simply not true.
And if we have a very serious and concerted effort to address
rising costs, to address access to healthcare, to address the
experiences that people are having in this country and who
are begging for help, this body actually could be doing that in
an oversight way, even. It would be especially important
to hear this body do that so that we could have a
conversation around what has the impact been for people in this
country, for women and girls because of Dodge.
Those are the things I hear about all the time.
Yes, thank you very much and. The general ladies time has
expired. Want to acknowledge?
Your the gentle ladies, time has expired.
I now recognize Miss McClain from Michigan.
Water. Allocated you took a minute of
my time wasting my time on a non point of order.
The gentlelady's time has expired.
I now recognize running during this McClain.
During your. Time was not wasted.
And to the train, I now recognize we stand with you,
with the LGBTQ plus community. Please stand with you.
And you can raise fire drums all you want, Madam Chair, but we
stand with the LGBTQ plus community and you can gavel me.
To order this, this hearing will come to order.
This hearing will come to order. Madam Chair, this hearing will
come to order. Madam Chair.
This hearing will come to order I now recognize.
This point of order McClain From this I have a point of.
Order. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Let me tell you, Madam Chair. I just was, I had a point of
order. Could, could we just have the
time keeper, you know, log the time between both the Democrats
and Republicans and then we rebalance them so that we each
have equal time? That's that's pretty basic.
We'll we will. We will consider that.
Thank you. But Scott, no, no, no, no.
You took a minute of my talk. Sorry.
Suggestions. Those are the rules enough.
Enough. No, no, no, no.
You're wasting your time. That's not either we go, we are
keeping. Equal.
Time we're out of here. We're keeping equal time the
doors open. Miss McClain from Michigan is
now recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Let me tell you what I'm here for.
I'm here to protect women and girls.
And for all of you young women and girls watching today, I hear
you. I hear your stories.
I hear your bullying stories. I hear your uncomfortableness
because you see, sometimes young women and girls get trampled
over. But let me tell you what I'm
here for. I'm here as a mother and as a
coach and as an athlete to stand up for the rights of women and
especially young girls. That's what I'm here for.
And in 1972, Title Nine of the Education Amendments prohibits
gender discrimination in all educational programs receiving
federal funds. And I'm here today because women
have had to fight for every God-given right.
And I'll be damned if we're going to go back on that.
When biological men invade women's spaces, our rights are
violated and our spaces are violated.
Now, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle constantly
talk about following the science.
But this makes it clear that this is merely A disingenuine
slogan. So let's follow the science for
a moment. Not opinions, but science.
So, Miss Graves, what is the average difference in skeletal
muscle between biological men and biological women?
So I'm definitely not a scientist, but I can tell you
about the studies that have been done looking at transgender
athletes, cisgender. Athletes, it's a great answer to
a question I didn't ask, so perhaps I can help.
You the answer is the answer. I think where you're trying to
go is. Is there an inherent?
Is there a biological difference between men and women?
In all contexts and the answer is no.
OK, let now. OK.
The answer? Is OK, let me educate you the
reason that I reclaiming my time there.
Is no because UCLA has studied this.
They did a study of. The gentlewoman's reclaimed her
time. Miss Maclean's record.
So I'll, I'll educate you. I'll tell you, men have 30 to
40% more skeletal muscle than biological women.
That's not right. That's not wrong.
That just is what it is. I was going to ask you what is
the difference in upper body strength, but I don't think you
know that either, so I'll answer that question for you as well.
Biological men exhibit 20 to 50% greater upper body strength and
25 to 30% lower lower body strength than biological women.
That's just the science, Miss Graves, you stated your
organization's mission is to ensure safety and opportunity
for all girls. Was Peyton McNabb safe on
September 1st of of 2022? It sounds like she definitely
wasn't. Thank you to her was tragic.
I would argue though that the answer is to ensure that people
can't spike volleyballs into people's heads.
That seems unsafe. Thank you for your answer, Miss
Graves, So I will reclaim my time on that.
So here's the here's the inherent problem.
If I would say I'm a six foot two blonde supermodel, you agree
with that statement. I know my husband does, but does
that make it true? I'm not sure he'll tell you all
because you're sitting down, but I'm assuming you're not blonde.
You look. Like a six foot two blonde.
Supermodel No. OK, but I but I identify as one.
OK, just because I identify as one doesn't make it true.
But let's go ahead and say for a moment, it's true.
The issue that I have for the young girls is you can live in
your reality. You can live in your reality.
But when your reality intrudes on my safety and puts another
person at harm or in harm's way, that's when I have a problem
with it. When you want to live in your
distorted reality, you can do that, but that doesn't mean
everybody else has to do that either.
Because I will ask you one other question.
Can a 43 year old man identify as a 13 year old boy, Miss
Graves? Can a?
40 Can a 43 year old man live in his reality of identifying as a
13 year old boy? This question makes me
understand that you. Well, this question is a
question that you need to answer that you refuse if we're going
to be who we want to be. Can I can a 43 year old man
identify as a 13 year old boy? That the witness can answer, but
the general lady's time has expired.
So here's the thing. It is.
Absolutely yes or no. So I, I actually, I'm hoping
that some people are watching and so that's why I'm trying to
provide some. With there's the gentlelady's
times expired. This is a yes or no question.
OK, I I would have loved to give a fuller answer.
My here is my answer to you. The answer is no, that an adult
can't be a child. Why they identify it?
OK, OK. Thank you very much.
Thank you for your for answering the question.
The gentlelady's time's expired. I now recognize the the witness
will suspend. I now recognize Miss Norton from
Washington DC for 5 minutes. This newly formed subcommittee
has been nothing but a sham so far this Congress.
But this hearing takes this subcommittee to a new low one of
hate and bigotry. I have spent my life fighting
for civil and human rights of all Americans.
I did so in the civil rights and women's rights movements, as a
lawyer, as chair of the New York City Commission on Human Rights,
and as chair of the United States Equal Employment
Opportunity Commission. And I do so now as the only
member of Congress representing the more than 700,000 residents
of the District of Columbia who denied voting representation in
Congress and full self government despite paying full
federal taxes. I am disgusted this subcommittee
would use its power to target transgender people.
But since the. Subcommittee is intent on
talking about safety. Let us talk about it.
Miss Goss Groves Goss Graves Last year, the Center for
American Progress found that nearly half of transgender adult
experienced discrimination in public spaces.
What kind of discrimination do transgender people face?
So transgender people face a wide amount of discrimination.
They have trouble getting higher.
They're more likely to experience harassment at work,
in school, in other settings. They experience violence
disproportionately. Transgender women experience
violence. So the the types and forms of
discrimination that the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission used to track thoroughly what is vast and, and
could and should be the subject again of this of this committee.
The committee could look at the wide range of discrimination
that transgender individuals are experiencing at work and what is
happening now at the EEOC now that it is not treating that
type of discrimination in the same way that it used to.
Please discuss the violence transgender people face.
Well, it is. It is everything from sexual
violence to assault in a lot of different types of spaces.
Spaces that you know, one might feel safe or narrowly for for
trans people, especially when the rhetoric has increased,
especially when at the highest parts of our government, they
are suggesting that it is OK to insult and to make it seem like
transgender people are less than human.
And it is, You know what? I think both our laws and, and
you know, my moral compass requires that anytime there is
an organized effort to demonize a small group of people that we,
our laws have something to say about that we should scrutinize
the why we should make sure there isn't harm.
But my own moral compass, I will say, has something to say about
that about anytime a group of people experiences the level of
hate and discrimination and violence, it's up to all of us
to show up. Discrimination and violence
should never be acceptable. We cannot allow these against
anyone. Today's attack on transgender
people is a blatant attempt by the Republican majority to
distract from the real harm they are cause causing Americans
through their disastrous policies.
They are proposing taking away health care and food assistance
from 10s of millions of Americans to give tax cuts to
the wealthy and corporations. Miss Miss Goss Graves, If
Republicans make these cuts to Medicaid and food assistance,
how will this affect the health and well-being of women across
this country? It will be disastrous.
Almost half of births in this country are paid for by
Medicaid. Women around the country and
their families lives can be upended by having access to
healthcare one day and then not the other.
And it will also change access to healthcare in entire regions.
There are large parts of this country, especially in rural
areas, that do not have enough healthcare systems.
And if Medicaid is gutted, that will only make for more
healthcare deserts. And the last thing that I just
want to say about this is that Medicare is Medicaid is sort of
the backbone of long term care. So the gentlelady's time has
expired. I now recognize Mr. Cloud from
Texas. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I
appreciate you holding this hearing.
And I especially want to thank Miss Term and Snap for McNab for
being here and, and telling your stories, not only coming before
Congress and, and talking to us, which is bold and heroic in its
own right, but taking the stand that you've taken and for for
continuing to tell your story. I am sorry that you've been put
in this type of situation where you're at a critical moment in
our history where if this is an issue that we're having to deal
with. But I admire you for your
courage and, and thank you for being there.
As a committee, we're bringing this up in part because of the
Ted Stevens Act that Mister Leafield mentioned.
The US Olympic and Paralympic Committee is a congressionally
chartered entity under that act. And the USOPC, therefore, and
it's NGB derivatives, the national governing boards have
to abide by federal law. And so we have Title 9, which
says that that these organizations will not
discriminate based on sex. And then we have lately
executive orders where President Trump issued an executive order
keeping men out of women's sports.
I did this to rescind the funds from educational institutions
that deprive women and girls of their fair athletics
opportunities and to oppose male competitive participation in
women's sports more broadly for safety, fairness, dignity, and
truth. It's interesting to note that he
referenced in that a previous executive order 146168 in which
defined a female which it seems that the left has a very
difficult time doing a person belonging at conception to the
set sex that produces the large reproductive cell.
And so we have a pretty clear definition of the guidelines
that you should be operating by and other organizations that are
embracing sports and charter by. And so it does fall under our
jurisdiction as Congress to consider whether or not you and
these other organizations should be stripped of your
certification under the Ted Stevens Act.
And so we have to continue to look at this and, and make just
talk about this issue. A recent UN report that the
chairwoman mentioned notes that as of March 2024 / 600 female
athletes and more than 400 competitions had lost 890
medals, 29 different sports to males, explicitly concluding
that males have certain performance advantages in
sports, which Miss Graves seems to not agree with.
This report also notes that injuries have included knocked
out teeth, concussions resulting in neutral impairment, neural
impairment, broken legs and skull fractures.
And it boggles the mind, miss Graves, that at time and time
again, what we have is mediocre male athletes turning into
champions in women's sports. And you continue to think that
there's not an advantage. I I'm puzzled by that.
Is that a question? So how do you?
Yeah, I said. Well, first I just have to say
the idea that someone who identifies as a man would
instead live their entire life as.
A that that's not answering the question is how how a mediocre
competitor becomes a champion overnight do?
That the notion is. I'll I'll, I'll move on.
Absurd. If if you were to compare world
class world record times in track for women's sports
compared to the male Texas high school meet that happened just
recently, you would find that the male high schoolers beat
world record times virtually in every single race as female
world class record holders throughout history.
As someone who ran track in the past, I wonder if I can
retroactively identify and have be recertified as a world class
world champion as opposed to the media over track person.
Because that's not how the rules work, and I think that's part of
what I've been trying to explain.
To you, I wanted to ask you something Miss Livefelt, because
the press release from US Fencing talked about how you
came up with your site selection criteria, which the chairwoman
talked to. But I wanted to dig into it a
little bit because it says your source for analysis was
primarily the equality maps, the movement advance project.
Now, this is not, if you go to this site right now, what you
would find on its homepage is a bunch of voting turn out
information how we can advance leftist Marxist agenda,
primarily Democrat agenda all throughout the country.
There's maps to do it, ways to be engaged, all these kind of
things. This is not at all any sort of
nonpartisan sporting effort or anything along those lines.
And and one thing Doge has uncovered is been the fact that
all these NGOs have been funded. And thank you, Madam Chairman, I
apologize, I ran out of time. But the point is this, it's a
political organization, not any sort of non partisan.
Thank you. Thank you, the gentleman.
Time has expired. Mr. Lynch, from Massachusetts,
is now recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I
want to thank the witnesses for their willingness to testify
before this committee and help us with our work.
I do want to go back to the the point that the Ranking Member
raised, and she is correct in pointing out that the about the
lack of jurisdiction of this subcommittee for the matter
before us. This subcommittee was created
for the opportunity to confront the economic inefficiencies in
our government. And that's exactly why most
members chose to to serve on this subcommittee because of the
the issue involved. So this subcommittee could be
focusing on the layoffs that President Trump has executed
over 200,000 firings of federal employees, employees from the
EPA, employees from the Social Security Administration,
employees from the Nuclear Security Agency, employees from
the FAA, including air traffic controllers.
The President has fired NIH researchers working on
Alzheimer's and and and can't Cancer Research.
The subcommittee could be addressing the layoffs of 3000
workers at the VA. I mean, that does affect the
efficiency of our government programs.
President Trump laid off nurses, internists, physical therapists,
and staff who care for our wounded veterans all across
America. He's even laid off people from
the Veterans Suicide Hotline in the middle of a veteran suicide
crisis. This subcommittee could be
holding hearings to find out why we have 250,000 people veterans
on a waiting list for benefits and treatment at the VA and why
veterans should be waiting months for an appointment.
Veterans benefits are special, Madam Chair.
There are special obligations of our country because those
veterans benefits are obligations that exists because
of courageous service previously rendered by our veterans.
Every eligible veteran laying in a Ava hospital bed all across
this country has honorably served by definition to be
eligible for that care. They have honorably served in
uniform on behalf of this country, on behalf of us all.
And from Democrat to Republican administration, we have always
maintained that veterans benefits must, must be rendered.
We must keep our promise until now, until this administration.
Until now, we've also been hearing from farmers who are
dealing with Trump's tariffs all across America.
We could be addressing the impacts of the Trump tariffs on
all of our states. If those tariffs are impacting
the export market for cranberries in Massachusetts, I
can only imagine what's going on in Iowa and Georgia and Kansas
and Illinois and Indiana, the great state of Georgia with
$83.6 billion in agricultural production last year and 325,000
agricultural related jobs. That dwarfs what we have going
on in Massachusetts. And I hear plenty from from our
farmers and our bog operators. Madam Chair, since President
Trump launched tariffs against 140 countries at the same time,
and then they retaliated against us on our farmers, we've seen
the landscape change. Those 140 countries have shifted
their major contracts to places like Brazil, Venezuela, Canada,
Europe, and away from Iowa, Ohio, Georgia, Indiana and
Illinois. That's what we should be talking
about in this committee. You know, one of my first cases
as an attorney, I represented a women's swim team at one of our
local high schools, Boston Latin Academy.
So I believe firmly in women's rights in in, in athletics.
We've come too far to let that regress.
But I hope someday we actually have a hearing here to talk
about gender dysphoria or gender incongruence so we can get
doctors and families in there whose families and kids are
suffering from that disorder, rather than simply punching down
at some of the weakest people and most vulnerable people in
our society. Madam Chair, I thank you for
your courtesy and I yield back. The gentleman yields, and now?
Madam Chair had some items to submit for the record.
That's. Yes, go ahead.
Wanted to submit for the Record a November 22, 2003?
Here's the latest on USA Fencing Tournament site selection.
It's personally from the US Fencing Tournament. the US track
and field statement regarding transgender transsexual policy.
The USA Gymnastics transgender and non non binary athletic
inclusion statement. the US weightlifting athlete gender
inclusion competitive equity and eligibility policy.
The US Tennis Association, Transgender policy, inclusion
policy, and finally, ironically, the National Women's Soccer
League. I'm not sure if they know what
women is, but their policy on transgender athletes.
Without objection, so ordered, I now recognize Mr. Fallon from
Texas. Madam Chair, thank you.
For the next 5 minutes, we're going to live within the bounds
of reality and actually use real science.
Human beings with an XY chromosome will be referred to
as male or men. Human beings with an XX
chromosome will be referred to as female or woman.
Mr. Layfeld, what is your current position within USA
Fencing? I'm the chair of the board of
the director, Sir. OK.
And in that role, is it fair to say that you celebrate
transparency and promote fairness?
I would certainly hope so, Sir. All right.
Great. Congress has oversight over USA
Fencing. Are you here today to testify of
your own volition? I'm here to testify on behalf of
the US of your own volition. Did you come voluntarily?
No, Sir. I was subpoenaed.
You had to be subpoenaed, Is that correct?
Yes, Sir. I have to give you an F on that
count right here for transparency.
Let's go. Did you recently change your
social media profile from public to private?
I did, Sir. OK.
Was that before or after you got when that you might end up being
here today? That was around the time that I
was receiving death threats and anti-Semitic messages.
Also happened to be right after you found out that you might be
here, correct? I can't recall Sir, specifically
when I went private. It's April 14th and you did it
after, so I'm going to give you another F2 counts for
transparency. Let's talk about fairness
because you said you wanted to be fair.
There are two competitive classes in USA Fencing.
Yes, two divisions, men and women.
That's correct Sir. Why is that?
There's also a mixed event, I should add a mixed event is a
plurality of our events. But you have, but to be specific
because we have limited time. You have a male division and a
female division, is that correct?
We also have a mixed. Do you have a male division and
a female division? Yes, we have a male division.
We have a female division. We also have mixed events which
represent a plurality. Do you allow men to compete
against women in mixed events, Sir?
OK, but not again there are there is a distinct class for
just women. Yes, yes, there is a thank you.
We're getting somewhere now that is because I think you would
agree that in general, maybe not because Miss Graves doesn't that
men inherent inherently have some physical attributes that
prove that give them an advantage is that Would you
agree with that? I would agree to an extent, Sir.
Let's go out. Let's talk about no, I'm going
to reclaim my time because for instance, there is increased
muscle mass, generally speaking with men, which makes them
faster and stronger. They're better adapted with
cardio respiratory capacity, lungs perhaps with endurance.
Men are generally taller, have stronger bones and they have
different skeletal structures. You got to know this.
The pelvis in men are more narrow in this small Q angle
that attach the hip to the the knee joint.
That's important because the more narrow that Q angle is, the
more force than you can project. Now that's only important in
sports that require standing, squatting, kicking or pedaling.
And then you also have a sex difference in the angle of the
humerus and the ulna at the elbow.
And the more narrow and the smaller that angle is, that
projects more force upon extension in only sports that
involve throwing, ha thrusting like in fencing, hitting a bat,
racket or stick. So like for instance, what my
colleague said, Will Thomas was 460, second best male swimmer
for three years and then he was winning events when he competed
with women. Female gold medalists in the
hundred 408 hundred would not even qualify to compete for the
gold in the men's division marathon.
The best marathon female would be 90th against the men.
Best triathlete female would be 50th against men.
And Major League Baseball has had exactly 0 women play on an
opening day roster. NFLNHLNBA.
Again, zero. So let me ask you this question.
I'm very curious to hear your answer.
Yes, Sir. Would you allow, do you think
it's fair for a man that identifies as a man to directly
compete against a woman in a mixed event?
Sir? OK, so you think that's fine?
A man can can compete against a woman in the women's division.
In the women's division, Sir, they must go through one year,
right? Right.
So what I'm saying, so I'm a man that's identifying as a man.
Cannot you don't you're not cool with them fencing against women.
Men compete a bit against women in mixed events all the time.
So they're a plurality of our events.
And who who generally wins those?
The recent data that we pulled showed that cisgender men
prevailed in 64%. So cisgender men are men.
OK, let's just call it for what it is.
Yeah, right. So the bottom line is this, even
when you go through hormone treatments, you know this, it
doesn't reduce your height, it doesn't shrink your bones, it
doesn't decrease your lung capacity, it doesn't alter your
skeletal structure. There's exactly 0 studies in the
world that show that any amount of hormone therapy will
ultimately result in parity between men and women.
It doesn't exist. The IOC just did a study with
800 men and even after a year they retained 83% advantage.
This is absolute lunacy. It's crazy.
But you crazies, you keep being crazy and we'll see you November
of 26. I yield back.
Thank you the. Ask for unanimous consent.
Without objection, so ordered. I'd like to ask for unanimous
consent to enter a article from NPR titled What has Doge done in
Trump's first 100 days into the USA Fencing Subcommittee of the
Oversight Committee. I now recognize Mr. Garcia from
California for 5 minutes. Thank you, Chairwoman.
I I wanted to start, of course, by thanking all of our witnesses
for being here today. I appreciate your your time.
I've said from the beginning and from our first DOGE subcommittee
meeting that we've really not talked about government
efficiency or any real serious legislative work.
But even I am surprised that this subcommittee is now
apparently in charge of policing women's sports.
Now, this is nothing to do with our committee's jurisdiction, as
said earlier, and nothing to do with helping the American
people. Now Republicans in Congress are
trying to destroy our healthcare and social safety net, as we've
seen them do over and over again.
Elon Musk is destroying critical medical research programs.
We have a measles outbreak. We have an anti vax health
secretary. But apparently this committee
wants to spend its time bullying trans kids and athletes and
arguing about fencing tournaments.
This is not only outrageous, it's also dangerous.
Now this is a committee supposed to be about saving taxpayer
dollars. And let's be really clear, Mr.
Layfeld, USA Fencing doesn't receive large taxpayer funded
grants and doesn't really receive federal funding.
Is that correct? Sir?
We do not receive a penny in federal funding.
So you do not receive a penny of federal funding.
And we're spending our time in the Government Efficiency
Committee debating A fencing tournament and your association,
that of you which receive no federal dollars.
Let's be clear, all kids and people deserve to be able to
participate in sports, and USA Fencing and other sports have
the right to layout rules to make sure their sport is fair
and safe. And we know that transgender
youth and athletes experience all kinds of mistreatment
because of their gender identity.
This includes bullying in schools, family rejection,
threats of violence even by some in Congress, and other
discrimination. Now, sports participation can
actually help overcome some of this vulnerability.
Now, we have a wide range of views on this committee, but I
want to make sure that they're are people are aware there is
some bipartisan consensus. Here's a quote from one of my
Republican colleagues who's actually on this committee
today, which I want to read. I find it encouraging.
It says I strongly support LGBTQ rights and equality.
No one should be discriminated against.
I have friends and family that identify as LGBTQ.
Understanding how they feel and how they've been treated is
important. Having been around gay, lesbian
and transgender people has informed my opinion over my
lifetime. Now, Miss Goss Graves, do you
know who who said this by any chance?
I I don't know. This was actually Congresswoman
Nancy Mace, who's I know weighed on to our committee today.
Now, Madam Chair, I'd like to insert into the record this
article on CNN that says titled Nancy Mace now targeting
transgender lawmaker calls herself pro transgender rights
in 2023. Madam Chairwoman.
Without objection. Thank you.
Now, Congresswoman Mace, of course, is is here today.
Now in November of just last year, Congresswoman Mace posted
326 times on social media about trans people and their access to
bathrooms in just 172 hour period.
That's a fact. So I'd like to introduce another
article from Newsweek and it's entitled This is the the title
Nancy Mace has posted 326 times in the last 72 hours about
bathrooms. Madam Chair, can I reduce this
into the record? Without objection.
Thank you. I I point this out because it's
actually important context. Republicans accuse Democrats of
focusing too much on LGBTQ plus issues or trans issues.
But we want to talk about protecting Social Security.
We want to talk about protecting the cost of living.
We want to talk about lowering prices.
We want to make sure that all people have healthcare.
But Republicans are so obsessed with demonizing trans people
that we are wasting time in our government efficiency committee
talking about trans people that like fencing.
Now let's remember, according to congressional testimony from the
head of the NCAA, there are less than 10 trans college athletes
in 2024. That's less than 10 out of half
a million total NCAA athletes, less than 10 out of half a
million. Now, Congresswoman Mace has
posted about this issue hundreds and hundreds of times.
That's equal to hundreds of individual posts per athlete.
All the while, we're ignoring the real issues.
I want to remind everyone that we've seen 935 confirmed cases
of the measles as of May 1st. According to the CDC, nearly
1000 children are getting sick while a country is hit by crisis
after crisis. Let's focus on the 930 adults
and kids with measles versus is the 10 trans athletes that are
participating in college sports. It is obvious to the American
public that this issue is being exploited by extremists to
divide the American public. It's shameful.
It's been clear that DOGE is not about government efficiency.
It's an attack on vulnerable people.
And with that I yield back. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize Mr. Timmons from South Carolina.
Thank you, Madam Chair, We are here today to shine a light not
only on the integrity of women's sports, but on how government
backed institutions chartered by Congress may be misusing that
authority to push controversial policies that violate basic
human rights and disregard their congressionally authorized
mission. When an organization abuses
authority delegated by the government, it is within the
purview of the subcommittee, plain and simple.
I realized my colleagues across the I don't understand that USA
Fencing is a national governing body for the sport of fencing in
the United States, officially recognized under the Ted Stevens
Olympic and Amateur Sports Act. That designation is not just
ceremonial, it is a chartered monopoly backed by federal law
and accompanied by special privileges and funding access.
That status comes with an expectation that NGB serve all
athletes equitably, promote excellence and adhere to
national interest, not ideological crusades.
Yeah, recent events raised serious questions about whether
USA Fencing has abandoned its mandate, is wasting resources,
undermining athletes and jeopardizing the integrity of
women's sports, all while flying under the flag of a federal
endorsement. We've heard USA Fencing speak
about inclusion, but what about transparency and fairness,
especially toward female athletes like Stephanie?
We are having this hearing for women's rights, and we know the
difference between a man and a woman.
That's why we are here. Stephanie Turner and Pat
Mcnabb's rights have been violated.
What's worse is they have been violated by an entity operating
under the color of federal law, an organization that bears the
name of our great country as bestowed by Congress in 1978.
And I can assure you that in 1978, the members that voted for
this law would be horrified. They would be horrified that we
have to have this hearing. Mr. Liefeldt, you state you said
earlier that the Ted Stevens Act prohibited you prohibited you
from discriminating against biological men that identify as
women. What what, what are you
referencing? Congressman, I, I may have
misspoke. I don't recall saying that.
Could you remind me specifically what what my words were in that
specifically said that the the statute you were statutorily
prohibited from telling transgender men that they are
not allowed to participate in women's competitions?
Sir, I believe what I was referring to is a statute within
the Ted Stevens Amateur Sports Act which prevents any NGB from
being more restrictive than their International Federation.
We have consulted with very competent legal counsel.
Are you familiar with the executive order signed by
President Trump right here? Yes, Sir.
OK. So, Madam Chair, I'd like to
submit this for the record. Without objection.
So a couple things. One, this executive order
prohibits all entities that receive federal funds, which I
know you do not of allowing transgender men to compete in
women's sports. So that's basically your entire
pipeline. Your main purpose is to be
competitive is to is to figure out who we're going to send to
the Olympics or one of your main purposes is that is that fair?
That's correct, Sir. OK, so you have women that are
participating in high school and in college and they're never
going to compete against transgender men because that's
federally prohibited. And by the way, this executive
order also says that the Secretary of State shall use all
appropriate and available measures to see that the
International Olympic Committee amends the standard governing.
We're going to fix this, and you're lagging behind us fixing
it. And what's going to happen is
we're going to amend the Ted Stevens Act to literally, you're
going to lose your federal charger.
And I appreciate that you did adopt A contingent policy, but
why do we have to do this? You're really creating a problem
where no problem should should actually exist.
And if all this isn't enough, I'm going to just highlight
something you had on your website.
I mean, this is just pretty insane.
What statutory or moral authority is granted to USA
Fencing? And it's chartered to determine
who in our society is oppressed. Congressman, forgive me, I
can't. This is on your website.
And but if I, if I could go back to something you were saying
before, Sir, about changing the law and what you were talking
about, the executive order. Sure, sure.
All right. Thank you, Sir.
We will be prepared to pivot as soon as the Ted Stevens Amateur
Sports Act changes. You might get the FIE, the IOCI
mean. I have a feeling that we're
going to write the statute in a way that if this is a problem,
when the statute becomes law, we're probably going to have
some additional clauses in there that removes rights and
abilities. But look, you do you.
And we will follow the law, Sir. The law is going to be punitive,
I can assure you of that. We're not going to let this
stand and it's going to get fixed.
And anyways, I want to go back to this.
So you say on your website that so Vietnam Veterans are an
oppressed group versus veterans. Why does a veteran of a war in
Afghanistan or Iraq have is, how is the Vietnam better than
oppressed? Sir, I've actually never seen
this, but I want to be clear. We have an appreciation for all
of our veterans. We have many who have one.
One individual who served our country admirably was disabled
by an IED in Iraq. And we very, very much
appreciate all of our veterans, Sir, without a thank you.
Madam Chairwoman, I'd like to ask for unanimous consent to
enter something into the record. Without objection.
Madam Chairwoman, I'd like to enter an article from USA TODAY
entitled Millions of people would lose Their Coverage under
Trump backed GOP plan to cut Medicaid.
This is the CBO score that came out today we want to talk about.
Without objection. Without objection, so.
Ordered of Americans that will lose.
We're not reading the article without objection, so ordered
just the just the title. I now recognize Mr. Kassar from
Texas. Madam Chairwoman, I want to
start off by acknowledging that this morning the nonpartisan
Congressional Budget Office announced that more than 5
million Americans can lose their health care because of the
Medicaid cuts being pushed by Republican members of Congress.
So of course, Republicans on the Government Efficiency Committee
are holding an emergency hearing on semi pro fencing, Not fences
like the kind that goes around a building, but like the sport
with the swords. And I've knocked on thousands of
doors and talked to thousands of Republican, independent and
Democratic voters in my career. And not a single time has
someone flung open their door and said, thank God you're here.
Congressman, I want to ask you about transgender people
fencing. It's just never happened.
I've never even met a fencer before.
I've just seen it on the Parent Trap.
I'm sure it's a great sport, but what the hell are we doing here?
Seriously. We are here because Chairwoman
Marjorie Taylor Green thinks that if she picks on vulnerable
people like trans folks, she can avoid having a discussion about
the allegations of insider trading against her.
She thinks that she can distract from the fact that Trump and
MAGA Republicans are raising your costs every single day,
suppressing your wages every single day, stealing your
taxpayer dollars every single day, and threatening your health
care. That's the reason we're at this
crazy hearing today. Here we are in a subcommittee
supposedly about government efficiency, spending hours upon
hours trashing trans people and talking about trans folks in
sports. There's more members on this
committee than there are trans people in all of college sports.
Of the 500,000 student athletes in America, about 10 of them are
trans, not 10,010. In Olympics, there are even
fewer. So in my opinion, sports leagues
will do a much better job than politicians up here on this
committee coming up with fair and thoughtful ways of handling
who does and who does not qualify for which sports.
But I think that instead of picking on LGBT people,
politicians in this country should be singularly focused on
improving the economy for every single working American.
That's my crazy idea. Miss Goss Graves, Republicans
have called an emergency hearing on trans athletes in the sport
of fencing today. Can you tell me how many college
fencers are there total in the entire United States?
I think about 1000. Compare that to Do you know how
many people rely on Medicaid in this country?
That's more like 80 million. And Social Security.
That's more like 70 million. So 80 million people rely on
Medicaid, 70 million people on Social Security.
We're talking about 1000 college fencers.
Period. How many hearings do you think
this committee has held on Elon Musk pushing Social Security to
the brink of collapse? Oh my God.
I don't think any. 0 hearings? How about how many hearings have
we had about the millions of Americans who could lose
Medicaid because of the cuts Republicans are pushing today?
0. That is correct. 0 hearings on
these issues that impact us all. Republicans have called hearing
after hearing obsessed with trans folks in sports, which of
course only effects a tiny sliver of Americans.
But no hearings on Medicaid, no hearings on Social Security, no
hearings on raising wages and lowering costs.
So if you're sitting at home watching, you need to know the
goal of this hearing is for Republicans to distract you from
their own lies, their own corruption, and their own
failure. The goal of this hearing is to
make sure that Fox News has something to talk about other
than Elon Musk getting billions of dollars a year in government
contracts while cutting services for you.
The goal of this hearing is to make sure that Fox News has
something else to talk about other than Chairwoman Marjorie
Taylor Green's alleged insider trade trading.
It's a sick reality right now in American politics that right
wing Republican officials think that picking on trans people is
how they'll earn more votes and raise more money.
They pick on Americans that are already facing discrimination
and violence, and they're making those challenges worse.
They're trying to pull the oldest trick in the book.
Next time you go vote, ask yourself if these second rate
schoolyard bullies are looking out for you or if they're
scammers just like the man that holds their leash.
The gentleman's time has expired.
It's important to point out that Democrat members today are not
asking the two young ladies that are here representing their
sports. And this is what the hearing is
about today. I now recognize Chairman Comer
from Kentucky. Thank you.
Madam Chair. I'm going to start with a quick
round of yes or no questions for each of our four witnesses.
So please keep your answers. For my first two questions, say
yes or no for time's sake. First question, do you believe
biological men should compete in women's sports?
Miss Turner? No.
Miss McNabb. No.
Mr. Lay felt if they comply with the requirements, Sir.
So is that a yes or no? It's if they comply with the
requirements that have been set by our policy, they deserve to
compete by the President's policy, by the policy of USA
Fencing. Miss.
Miss Gray, I'm going to take that as a yes.
Miss Miss Graves. I agree with Mr. Lay felt that
trans women should be able to compete in the sport in
accordance with their gender identity.
So 2 Nos and two yeses. Second and last question for yes
or no. Should biological men be able to
get scholarships to College in women's sports?
Miss Turner. No.
Miss McNabb. No.
Mr. Lay felt They can't get them anymore, Sir.
They can't get them anymore. So do you believe yes or no?
They should. You have a personal opinion on
that? I don't really have an opinion
on that, Sir. Miss Graves.
I'm actually concerned about the 10s of thousands of women in
this country who play college sports who have fewer
scholarship opportunities than men.
I would that this would actually be a.
Really important. So you are concerned that a man
would get a common scholarship that should go to a woman?
It's my understanding that there's less than 10 transgender
women playing sports, but I know that.
Mr. Layfeld. Thousands of women.
Mr. Layfeld, on the website, I know my colleague Mr. Timmons
talked about it, there are some troubling statements.
There's a page titled, and I think he referenced it, Power
and privilege. This page promotes woke content
stating that people who are white, Christian, middle class,
English speaking are all privileged and we should be
asking if they're quote the right person to take up space or
speak on certain issues. Your blog and social media posts
consistently express similar views, So I assume you support
the ideas on that web page, Sir, I'm not I'm not sure about the
specific area of the web page that that you're referring to.
As a board member, I focus primarily on governance and you
know, if there's something that's operational, I, I stay
very far away from that. So you disavow your website.
Is it I'm, I'm just not sure of the specific area of the
website. Is it my website?
Is it the USA Fencing website, Sir, that the USA Fencing
website. OK, I, I just not familiar with
the area that you're referring to, Sir.
OK, the reason we, we're the reason that's odd is because
your, your blog that we looked at expressed a similar view.
So because I, you know, you appear to be white English
speaking male like, like me. So I, I didn't know, you know,
there was just an odd, odd opinion.
You don't have any comment on that.
You don't know anything about it.
I'm just Sir, in all honesty, I'm not not following the
question. You're not following the
question about the USA Fencing website that has just a lot of,
you know, concerning content on there that some would consider
racist, discriminatory, or you don't have any.
That's not a concern or anything.
I just, if you link me to the specific part of the website, I
could get back to you with an opinion, but I'm just not
following. We'll get you, we'll get you a
copy of your website that Mister Timmons just just referenced.
So, Mr. Layfeld, let me ask a simple question.
Do you support transgender women, which are biological men
competing in women's events if they comply with the policy?
Sir, which policy? What?
Whose policy are you going by
What? What is that your Should that be
the policy? Should men be allowed You're
you're a leader in this show. Some leadership should Should
men be able to compete in women's fencing?
Sir, our policy was passed in 2022 prior to my joining the
board. But right now, anybody who goes
through on your SO So you're OK with it?
You're OK. You don't have a problem in the
world with it. You knew this hearing was coming
up. You knew this was the topic of
the conversation. You don't have an opinion on the
policy. Are you going to change the
policy? Sir, we, we've passed a
contingency policy at this time due to the Ted Stevens Amateur
Sports Act. Our council has advised us that
we cannot have a policy that's more restricted than our
International Federation. I want to be clear that if
Congress or the IOC or the F, IE or International Federation
changes the policy to ban transgender participation, we
will of course follow suit. Look, I think the people the
majority of this Congress is committed to protecting women in
women's sports. NBC News poll asked when asked
if they agree or disagree with change transgender women
competing in women's sports, 75% disagree.
This is one of those 8020 issues that the the my colleagues on
other side want to the hill they want to down.
So we're going to try to protect women's sports.
Thank you for having this hearing, Madam Chair, and I
yield back. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Madam Chair, I'd like to ask for
unanimous consent. Without objection.
I'd like to enter into the record a New York Times article
entitled The GOP plans to cut Medicaid would Save billions but
Leave More uninsured. Budget Office says that's what
we're actually outraged. Without objection, so ordered, I
now recognize Mr. Burchett from Tennessee.
Oversight Republican. I now record.
You're not recognized, Miss Stansbury.
You're not recognized. Oh, I'm sorry.
We're going to. Come while they're trying to
cut. Actually, Miss Stansbury, you're
not recognized. I now recognize Miss Crockett
from Texas. Thank you so much.
It is so interesting that I just learned today at 44 years old
that the Republicans are going to be the ones to save women.
The same Republicans that have been saved for women's
reproductive acts, or the same Republicans that have stood for
the Equal Rights Act, which would hopefully get women to
equal pay. Or the same Republicans that
just this Congress voted for the SAVE Act, which we know would
disenfranchise women from even being able to vote.
But. Let me tell you, they are our
saviors. And so I am so happy to be here
today because otherwise I would not have an idea that I had a
savior in the Republicans. So let's also talk about the
fact that it's only been 100 days, 100 long terrible days for
anybody that absolutely believes in reality.
Because what we know is that they have terminated staff
responsible for enforcing federal protections against sex
based discrimination. Sounds like that's pro women.
Or they've cut funding for domestic violence survivor
services. Sounds pro woman to me.
Or they've prohibited funding for research affecting Women's
Health. That definitely sounds pro women
to me. Essentially they closed the
Department of Education's office of civil rights.
Again, sounds like they are fighting for us.
And instead of providing oversight over these actions,
congressional Republicans have been working to execute one of
the most aggressive anti women legislative agendas in history.
And yet they're here today trying to convince the American
people that discriminating against trans people is somehow
the only way to protect women. This hearing has nothing to do
with improving government efficiency.
It's another attempt by Republicans to distract from
their demonic and disastrous policies that are making it more
difficult for Americans to make ends meet.
So, Miss Goss Graves, I want to play a game.
It's called Trump or trans. You ready?
So I'm gonna ask you a question, and I want you to tell me
whether or not it is Trump or trans people that are
responsible. You understand?
OK. Very good.
The first one good at medical research.
Trump. Kidnapping Americans and sending
them to foreign countries, AKA deporting them.
Trump. Driving us into a recession.
Trump. Increasing the cost of
everything. Trump.
Waging an idiotic terror of war. Trump.
Harming farmers? Trump.
Ignoring the Constitution. Trump.
Proposing to take away Social Security.
Trump. Cutting health care?
Trump. Firing government workers who
keep our country safe. Trump.
Encouraging an environment of hate and divisiveness.
Trump. Thank you so much.
This committee could be engaged in actual oversight of fraud,
waste, abuse and mismanagement. So let's talk about waste.
Like Trump's plan to spend almost $100 million for his
little birthday parade. Or how he spent 25% of his first
100 days golfing, costing taxpayers 10s of millions of
dollars. In fact, it's a little bit over
30 million at our last estimation.
In fact, President Trump is on pace to spend more than a
billion dollars of taxpayer dollars just on golfing, yet the
Republicans have been silent. So they must think spending
taxpayer dollars on the president's golfing trips is
more important than providing health care to their
constituents. And when I talk about
constituents, we don't talk about the ones on this
committee. So if we look at Texas, 2639
thousand children look to potentially lose their Medicaid
with the cuts that they are about to vote on for
reconciliation. 88,000 in Georgia 360-8000 in Missouri 7.
79,000 in Tennessee 286 thousand, in South Carolina 450
thousand in Texas O 480-5000 in Texas 27 and in Georgia 14111
thousand. And if you add that up just on
this committee, we have 606,000 kids that are relying on us to
do right by them. And instead we playing these
crazy games because we worried about 10 trans folks that are in
sports right now. In college, I wasn't elected to
be engaged in these fights. I was elected to make sure that
those kids, the kids that they are about to neglect with these
terrible votes that they're about to take.
I was elected to protect them and to make sure that they could
grow up and have all the opportunities.
But let's keep on track now when we look at how much they are
spending on let's look at fraud, We could investigate whether the
White House and the members of this subcommittee engaged in
insider trading and market manipulation.
Maybe it's a coincidence that the chairwoman brought hundreds
of thousands of dollars worth of stock the day before Trump
announced a 90 day pause on tariffs.
But I guess we'll never know. So finally, let's talk about
abuse like how the Republicans have let Elon steal data of
Americans and his competitors to make himself even richer.
Look, don't let these hearings distract you from their
destruction. This is a rage baiting instead.
This is rage baiting instead of conducting oversight over the
issues that Americans actually care about.
And with that I will yield. The gentlelady's time is
expired, Madam Chair. Now recognize, Madam Chair, I
moved down to take down her words impugning you.
It's saying you committed a crime without objection.
So ordered. Say.
What? The committee.
Wilson, The committee will suspend point of parliamentary
inquiry we're. Going to go with hers first,
right Madam? Sure the the committee will
suspend the Member will state the words she wishes taken down.
Well, actually, Madam Chair, the the words weren't actually not.
Made The committee will suspend the.
Exact. The words alleging a criminal
act by the chairwoman. What?
What words we will suspend we will.
Have the the committee. The clerk will go over the
recording with the stenographer and the committee will suspend.
The hearing will come to order. Miss Miss Mace, I'd like to ask
we've we've looked at the words that were said and it's
borderline whether it's parliamentary and goes along
with the rules saying could and accusing the White House and
members of this committee of crimes is borderline.
So, so an interest of the hearing and our our witnesses
that are here today defending themselves against the mentally
ill biological males that have have invaded their sports and in
the interest of of making sure that we stay on on track instead
of getting sidetracked into Democrats nonstop fake
accusations. I just asked.
Thank you for bringing up the motion and ask.
If you yes, Madam Chair. OK, thank you very much.
With that, I now recognize. I now recognize she has to
withdraw it on the record. She already did.
Miss Stansbury, I now I now recognize Mr. Burchett from
Tennessee for 5 minutes. Thank you, Chair Lighting.
Chairman, I'm sorry, you just, it has to be withdrawn on the
record? She asked.
The. Question.
And she said yes, Madam. Chair you, you weren't
listening, Miss Stansbury. We we handled that and it has
been removed for the record, the fake accusations of of criminal
behavior. Criminal behavior.
Are you, are you accusing also and lying and you're continually
disrupting this hearing and won't stay on track about
mentally ill men trying to beat down women and women's sports.
We're going to stay on track now, Miss Stansbury.
So hopefully you can go along with this hearing and say on
subject, but I now recognize Mr. Burchett from Tennessee.
Thank you, Chair lady. Thank you for allowing me to be
here. You know, much has been said
about the number of trans athletes that are in sports
today are the lack of numbers, I guess.
But I can tell you there's a couple of ladies sitting right
here who have been greatly affected by those very small
numbers. 1 is not being able to pursue her, her passion of
fencing. And the other lady has had a
life altering event occurred to her because of it.
And I, I take, I take a little bit of offense that being the
father of a very cool young lady, I just think that this is
something that needs to be noted.
And also the a lot of distractions been made about
cutting SNAP and all these other things and Medicaid, Medicare,
what have you. All anybody on our side of the
aisle is talking about is cutting waste, abuse and fraud.
The only people that are talking about making any cuts are my
friends cackling to my right and a few commentators on CNN.
And that's and all we're talking about is waste, abuse and fraud.
And you have to ask, America is going to have to ask themselves
eventually, why in the world are the folks on the left so afraid
of waste, abuse and fraud being cut?
I suspect because it's going to come back to somebody's pockets.
So with that, I appreciate the time you've allotted me.
Mr. Lafell. Did I say that name right, Sir?
close enough, Sir. It's Layfeld.
Layfeld. All right.
I'm yes, Sir. Nobody ever gets it right.
So it's a German name, Sir. A lot of people mess it up.
I'm not really sure what mine is.
I just East Tennessee. Let me ask you, while serving as
chairman of the USA Fencing, you posted a very long pro gender,
trans, pro transgender manifesto on your blog.
Let me ask you, why did you post this?
And I would like to, for the record, put that on the record,
Madam Chairman, go. Ahead without objection, so
ordered. Sir, I posted it in my personal
capacity just over the years having observed a lot of
transgender women transition and the success that they had found
in fencing and the purpose that it gave them in life.
OK, in the post you mentioned you had no problem with your
daughter facing a man in the sporting event.
Is that true? Sir?
At this time she's four years old and hits me with a foam
saver but does not participate in fencing yet.
OK, but when she is at the age where she would take this sport
on, is that something you would you would think would be fair
that she would compete with a man?
Sir, we are one of the safest sports in the Olympic movements
and and 34% of our events are mixed gendered.
It's I'm very talking about, I'm not talking about the safety
issue. I'm just talking about the
fairness issue. Sir, I realize you have you
cover up and and I realized nobody gets poked in the face
anymore. I get that, but you think it do
you think that's fair? That's just a simple yes or no.
So long as the competitor has met all the the hormonal
requirements and complies with the policy, I would be OK with
it. Sir, OK on Instagram you a
commenter asked are you OK with a CIS female and I don't like
these terms. I had to look it up.
A CIS female, someone who's born a female, I believe is correct,
meaning women, are you OK with them being at a disadvantage?
To which you replied, yeah, And to be clear, must be clear,
you'd be OK with a young lady or young woman being at a
disadvantage or at a higher risk of being injured in any of these
other sports. Sir, thank you for giving me the
opportunity to address that, that question.
That was a question that required a far more nuanced
answer than what I gave, and I appreciate having the
opportunity on the committee to address that question.
I want to be clear in saying that I expect anybody that is
competing as a woman, as a transmitter woman, that they
meet the requirements as set forth in USA Fencing's policy.
OK, look, I hate to say I reclaim my time.
That sounds like being a jerk, but I'm going to do that if
that, if that's all right with you, brother, is it?
Is it true that USA Fencing created an equality map?
I know it was referred to either of states not to have events in
because of what the democratically elected
representative of states voted for.
So there was a map policy that a few of your colleagues have
referenced that was passed before I joined the board.
It does exist and it does not exclude any states from
selection. To be crystal clear, we have had
tournaments in numerous states that are listed in there,
including Texas, Ohio, Florida, Missouri, etcetera.
It does not exclude any states from selection and we probably
host tournaments in those states.
OK, well, I'm out of time. I apologize.
Thank you, Chairlady. Thanks Sir.
The gentleman's time has expired.
I now recognize Miss Simon from California.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you all of you all for
coming today. There's there's so much to say,
but I have such a limited time and I actually have a question.
But we'll also want to refer back.
Historically, we've been having these conversations for for
quite some time. Miss Cross, do you recall in
2000, and I believe it was 2009, the Castor Simonya case.
Craig, yes. Can you tell folks a little bit
about this case? I have some document on it too,
but can you give me a background?
You know, this was an Olympic sprinter, and there were all
sorts of assumptions that she was not a a woman and she was
subject to all sorts of invasive tests, but also bullying and
harassment because she was assumed to be not feminine
enough for the sport, basically. Yeah.
So you know, the this case, she was a black woman and she was a
South African, I think. Yeah, South African black.
And she was assumed to be too fast, too big.
And of course, she was asked to undergo testosterone testing and
medical treatment to reverse her natural testosterone that was in
her body. But she was born female.
That's correct. So I just want to make it clear
where we are. On March 25th, in this very
room, my colleague Miss Presley, she introduced an amendment to
this body. And the amendment was, was
pretty clear. And it said it requested that
this body vote down anything, any, any, any mention of any
policy that would ban racism, that would push forth any
clarity around us. Insinuating as a full body that
the Trump administration, when he moved executive orders that
they wouldn't mention or allude to any kind of segregation.
My colleagues on the right voted that amendment down.
Every single one of them. So even if you're not
transgender folks who are watching, I want you to
understand why this moment is so important.
We have a party who has been very clear about what their
intentions are for this country, very clear about what their
intentions are for this country. I think it's bringing us back to
a 1950s America where segregation was legal.
Who is to say that your African American daughter, because of
her BMI, will be subject to the same kind of conversation?
Who is to say, if we move forth in this conversation, that your
daughter, who was born a female, would be subjugated and subject,
I should say, to inspection of her genitals when she went up to
the Mount to play T-ball because she looked a little bit
different from other folk? There's a slippery slope here.
I definitely want to talk about race fraud and abuse in the
119th Congress. It's important and it's also
important for us to realize that the cruelty of not censoring all
Americans, how difficult that is, but it is ingrained in who
we are to figure out how we love and support and not pathologize
anyone. Let's be careful.
Miss Cross, I wanted to give you
an opportunity, while my time is limited, to share anything else
about really what we're seeing here and how the slippery slope
can maybe go a little bit farther and more horrific than
it already is. Well, I'd say it's already
happening. We're already seeing girls being
challenged for not being feminine enough, for being too
tall, too fast, too good at what they do, by other parents, by
school officials. It will Discrimination never
begins and ends with the small group of people who are
initially targeted. It will extend and harm all
girls. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Now yield my time.
Madam Gentlelady's time has expired.
I now recognize Mr. Burleson from Missouri.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our two witnesses
for confronting the assault on women's sports.
Men and women's sports is absolutely nonsense, no matter
how you spend it. It's shameful to look at the
women that have been hurt from these men and tell them that
they need to be silent in the name of inclusion.
This whole hearing, we've had motions to try to stop this
hearing to, to stop these young women from from from expressing
their views. It it's almost as if we have
nothing to see here. We don't want to hear what you
have to say. That is, that's the message
that's coming from this, from this side.
But I'm here because I want to hear what you have to say.
And, you know, look, whether it's fencing, tournaments, track
and field, my daughters are in soccer or volleyball games,
you're endangering our daughters.
And, and, and, and belittling. There's their narrative, the men
like Mr. Lefeld, who are, are wrecking women's sports with
woke poison and a twisted, twisted mental view of things
are, are destroying and the, the opportunities for these young
women. Meanwhile, Americans, they all
get this, they, they look at this and they think that this is
absolutely crazy, that we're even here.
And so we're here to obliterate this insanity and fight for our
girls and their safety and their fairness and their athletic
endeavors. And I've got to tell you, Miss
Graves, I was, I, I, I was shocked to read your testimony
where you belittled the experience of Miss Turner.
In your testimony, you said that this that her experience is part
of a larger scheme to attack young trans people.
Do you really? You said it was deliberate
spectacle that was carried out. Do you really believe she
contrived this situation? That she put her so that?
She testified that she planned the night before.
She cried the night before I do you.
Do you have any sympathy for a young woman who realizes she's
going to have to sword fight a man the next day?
Point protest is important it is to make a point there is mixed
gender competition all the time in fixing you heard that it was
a. Plurality, Miss Grace, I'm
taking my time. This young woman did not
register for a mixed sport, for a mixed event.
She registered to compete with other women.
And that that right was taken from her.
And she, she, you know, bravely stood her ground.
And I, and I think the world applauded you for that, Miss
McNabb, The, the life changing, altering.
Can you describe? And this is where I want to kind
of give some time. This, this event has had a
dramatic impact on your life physically, the the mental
anguish that you've gone through.
I unlike some, I want to hear your story.
I want to hear what you have to say.
Thank you, Congressman. Yeah, what happened to me was
100% avoidable and it completely changed my life.
I never played volleyball again that day.
That was the last day. And it's, it's so sad because I
had the hopes of playing collegiate sports in softball
and that day never came because I was just never the same.
I've had to navigate my new normal, which is incredibly sad,
especially for my friends and family to see.
And although I may look like I'm doing better on the outside,
it's there's things that are not and I don't know if they'll ever
be the same. I I'm sorry for the experience
that you went through. And, you know, I'm really sorry
that we have individuals in positions of power like Mr.
Lafelt, who have a twisted view on on reality.
And they're imposing that twisted view on, on you and your
lives. It it's really tragic and it's
sad. And what's even worse is that
now you're the one to blame because you, you 2 contrive
these situations, according to Miss.
Graves, that you created this, you wanted this to happen, Miss
Turner. That's what Miss.
I never. That's it's in your testimony I.
Did not say that Miss McNabb contrive the situation.
I actually think the lesson from her situation is around
concussion. Progress Do you really believe
the experiences that they've Miss McNabb?
Do you really believe that she wanted to face all these medical
issues? I think what happened to her is
tragic. There are hundreds of thousands
of injuries that are proven. So why aren't you standing up
for her? I I actually have, I said that
this was terrible and I have solutions that don't involve
bullying. Thank you, Miss Graves.
Look, I think that it's sick and twisted that individuals want to
make men, make women have to sword fight men.
And it's sick and twisted that individuals want to make
individuals have to take a a spiked ball to the forehead.
If that's what it takes for a trans person to play, I yield
back. The gentleman's time has
expired. I now recognize Miss Randall
from Washington. Thank you.
You know, this hearing, much like the long suspension that we
had a few speakers ago, is a waste of taxpayer time.
Yet another showing of the 24 seventh circus that this
majority has been conducting as puppets of this president's
agenda. We have people at risk of losing
healthcare coverage for concussions, for preventable
diseases, for brain injuries, for cancer.
People at risk of losing healthcare coverage, federal
workers and veterans fired without reason, FAA woefully
understaffed, and presidential appointees taking advantage of
their position for personal gain.
And yet the first subpoena that this majority feels compelled to
execute, not any that we tried to offer for Elon Musk, but it's
to bring the chairman of the board of USA Fencing in.
No offense, Mr. Lee felt, but this is part of a crusade
against trans people. There's nothing else to call it.
No one can explain away how questioning the chairman of USA
Fencing on trans people and sports brings down costs for
American people, much like no one can explain how banning
trans people from our military ranks makes us more safe.
In fact, Representative McGuire, who's not on this subcommittee
but is on the full oversight panel, said this morning
something that we could all do well to remember.
If somebody saved your life on the battlefield, you wouldn't
care if they were pink or blue or male or female, if they
called themselves a Democrat, Republican or an independent.
We are all Americans, but we care more.
My Republican colleagues care more about policing the way that
people live their lives instead of ensuring that they can't.
Last week, this committee advanced a bill gutting federal
employee pay and benefits. This week, the Energy and
Commerce Committee was supposed to mark up their piece of their
reconciliation package that would cut 880 billion from
Medicaid healthcare for people. This is so unpopular that they
had to push back their meeting a week in order to find the votes.
But here's the thing, despite their attempts to distract and
deflect by focusing on trans people who are just trying to
play their play sports and live their lives, the American people
are paying attention. They feel the cost of goods
going up does this. Hearing address that.
No. American people feel the fear of
wondering if they'll have health insurance tomorrow.
Does this hearing address that? No, I don't know if any of my
colleagues are even talking to their constituents because I've
received over 60,000 messages and phone calls, held eight town
halls since being sworn in, and not one person asked me to use
my time here to attack trans people.
I cannot make it make sense. In fact, Madam Chair, as I think
we heard earlier, 155,000 people in your district are at risk of
losing their health care under the Republican Party's budget
plan, including 111,143 children and 20,000 seniors.
Do you want to tell those folks that you care less about them,
or should I? Miss Randall, in my district, no
one's going to learn lose any of their benefits.
It was a promise by President Time and myself.
But they're concerned about men defeating women in sports.
By the way, your patriarchy earrings are screaming of the
hypocrisy. I'm glad you like my earrings,
but I'd like to reclaim my time. I'm here today on behalf of my
sister Olivia, who would have been unable to live with her
complex disabilities for 19 years without Medicaid.
And I'm here on behalf of the 72 million families and seniors who
rely on Medicaid. I'm here to tell the American
people that while this might be a scary time, a time where we
are feeling attacks on our most vulnerable communities every
day, where the instances of suicidal ideation amongst LGBTQ
folks is rising, and we, this administration is cutting the
very lifeline of the LGBTQ suicide hotline, there are
people who see you and celebrate your humanity and who care about
you. Miss Graves, I wasted all my
time, but I am grateful that you're here and we're able to
share about the real ways that we could support women across
the country. The gentlelady's time has
expired. I now recognize Mister Jack from
Georgia. Well, thank you, Madam
Chairwoman, and thank you for convening this hearing under
your leadership that those subcommittee has been one of the
most active subcommittees across Congress.
And my constituents are proud of our work to eliminate waste,
fraud and abuse of taxpayer dollars across the federal
government. And today, it is no surprise
that our colleagues on the other side of the aisle have spent a
majority of their time desperately avoiding the issue
before us because 80% of Americans, Republicans and
Democrats alike, believe biological men should never
compete in women's sports. Mr. Layfeld, as Mr. Fallon
noted, you are testifying today under subpoena because you
refused to appear before us voluntarily.
Why did you refuse our initial invitation to testify?
Congressman, thank you for giving me the opportunity to
address that. Our CEO, the organization Phil
Andrews was offered as a witness and we felt given his full time
capacity that he operates in this role that he would be able
to answer the, the questions more thoroughly than I can.
However, since I'm here, I'm happy to be here and answer your
questions. Thank you.
And as chairman of USA Fencing, how many members of USA Fencing
are biological men who have participated in women's
competitions? Rough estimate.
Rough estimate, Sir, I believe that the, it's, it's roughly 200
total with I think 39 that are transgender women.
And of that group of biological men, how many have won
championships in women's competitions?
Rough estimate, I couldn't tell you the specific number, Sir.
I've more than 10. I, I'm honest, honestly not
sure, Sir. I mean, I have the data on how
often cisgender women prevail against transgender women, but
specifically the number of medals, etcetera.
I, I'm not sure off the top of my head, Sir.
And conversely, how many biological women are
participating in men's competitions within USA Fencing?
34% of our events are mixer. And so it's fairly regular for
that kind of event to happen. They're a plurality of our
events. Then again, I'm just referring
to specifically male, non, non mixed competitions, specifically
male competitions. How many biological women are
participating in those to the best of your knowledge?
So just so I understand your question, Sir, biological women
competing in the men's division, Sir.
I'm not sure, Sir. OK, Well, I think the disparity
alone, as we've seen, confirms that this approach is
inequitable. The data across other sports
affirms it. In recent years, over 600 female
athletes have lost more than 900 medals to biological men and
women's sports. And again, over 80% of
Americans, Republicans and Democrats alike, agree that
biological men should never compete in women's sports.
Mr. Lay Felt. And I mean this with respect and
your capacity as a representative.
USA Fencing, have you ever impersonated a woman?
No, I'm not certain. Not to my knowledge.
I asked because I understand you have a history of creating
fictitious female personas. In one instance, you
impersonated a woman named Dorothy and wrote an e-mail to
yourself, which you didn't publish on social media for all
your followers to see, along with your response.
Do you want to comment on that? Yeah, I do, Sir.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to address that.
It was a poor attempted humor. It was unbecoming of me as a
leader of this organization to post that as I did.
And quite frankly, moving forward, that's not something
that's going to happen again. It's unacceptable and it's it's
not something that should happen with any human to human
interaction, period. Thank you.
Miss Turner, Miss McNabb, I want to commend both of you.
You were both very brave women and Miss Turner, your courage
that you displayed on March 30th galvanized millions of Americans
in support of the simple truth that biological men should never
compete in women S sports. And with my remaining time,
Madam Chairwoman, I'd like to learn a little bit more about
the culture within USA Fencing specifically.
Miss Turner, reporting suggests that you previously raised your
concerns of the policies with which you have to face to USA
Fencing officials. What was the response when you
did so? I had done so privately and it
the answer is that they did not respond.
But I have known of other members of USA Fencing, mother
and a daughter who did come to USA Fencing asking, saying that
they did not approve of the transgender policy and they were
told that they would be sanctioned.
And did you or have you feared retribution from USA Fencing
with respect to your brave stance and likewise your
concerns you've raised before you took that stand?
Yes, and I still do. I don't think I'll ever get a
fair bout again from a referee or that I'd be welcomed without
harassment. And why do you think that
culture exists? Just you know, you've
experienced it. I'm curious your your own
perspective as it relates to the the culture that that tolerates
this type of behavior. I don't think they communicate
well with people who oppose this policy.
No one ever asked me what I thought, and I think maybe if
they had, they'd know what my stance was, you know?
Well, your braverly LED us to ask you your thoughts today in
front of the American public. So grateful for both you, Miss
McNabb, and all of our witnesses for testifying.
Madam Chairwoman, yield the remaining 4 seconds to you.
Thank you very much. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize Miss Jacobs from California.
Thank you. I'm not normally a member of
this committee, but I could not sit.
Idly by while Republicans attack the transgender community for
the millionth time. And look, there are real.
Well-intentioned questions and policy decisions that need to be
made around trans issues. I understand that.
For a lot of people, these issues are new.
It can feel intimidating to talk about them, scary to ask
questions. We need to be having dialogue,
but that's not what we're doing today in this hearing.
This hearing is a waste of time and neglects to provide actual
oversight of the ways the Trump administration is dismantling
our government and hurting women and girls.
Madam Chairman, would it be accurate to say that you believe
no one should receive gender affirming care?
I believe that no minors should receive gender affirming care.
Sex changes mutilating their body.
They can't vote, they can't get a tattoo, they can't drive a
car, they can't join the military.
Thank. You I I ask this because.
Many people believe that Botox, filler, boob jobs are all gender
affirming care, and I know many of my colleagues, probably on
both sides of the aisle have partaken in this gender for me
care. But OK, let's take this
committee at its word that this hearing is about protecting
women and girls. Miss Goss Graves, The Department
of Education's Office of Civil Rights is the primary entity
that investigates discrimination against women and girls in
sports in school. Is that correct?
That's correct. That protects women and girls
against sexual assault, whether in sports or elsewhere.
Is that correct? That's correct.
All right. Well, then, would you say that
getting rid of the Department of Education's Office of Civil
Rights would hurt? Women and girls.
For sure, as did the cuts to the Office for Civil Rights, the the
group that actually responds to Title 9.
That's exactly right. Which is why I find it so
interesting that the Trump administration has already
closed more than half of the offices of the Office of Civil
Rights in the Department of Education, including an office
in California, that it's in the middle of an active
discrimination investigation. You would think if we were
concerned about protecting women playing sports and protecting
their Title 9 rights that we would want to be actually
looking into why we're closing these offices, not not what
we're doing right now. For the record, for, you know,
folks watching this is also the office that investigates
anti-Semitism incidents of anti-Semitism on college
campuses. So remember that when my
colleagues trying to tell you that they're standing up for
Jewish students, but. I.
I have a theory. I think we're probably talking
about this issue instead of what the Trump administration is
actually doing because my colleagues don't want to talk
about, for instance, the 99,301 people who are at risk.
Of losing their Medicaid in Nancy Mason's district or the
54,400 and. 66 People who are at risk of losing their Medicaid in
Brandon Gills district or the 69,698.
People who are at risk of losing their Medicaid in Pat Fallon's
district or the 263,002 176 people at risk of losing their
Medicaid in Eli Cranes district, or the 200 and 35530 people at
risk of losing their Medicaid in Chairman Comer's office or the
155,530 people at risk of losing their Medicaid in the Chairwoman
Marjorie Taylor Green's office, or the 1.7 million.
People statewide in Georgia who are at risk of losing their
Medicaid or the 320,818. Students who rely on school
lunch in Georgia in order to get their food, who are at risk of
losing that. Maybe it's because the Atlanta
Journal Constitution has already ranked the chairwoman as last in
a poll of potential candidates for the United States Senate in
the Georgia seat, and she thinks that attacking trans kids will
help her poll numbers. But I'm here to tell you that
attacking trans kids is not going to launch a Senate
campaign. Attacking trans kid is not.
Good politics. Not for the right, not for the
left. The American people did not say
that they hate trans kids and they hate trans people in this
last election, what they said. Is that they?
Want us to take care of them. They are mad that someone else
is getting a surgery paid for when they are drowning in
medical debt. They are mad that someone else
is getting housing paid for when they are can barely afford rent.
So let's be clear that on both sides of the aisle, it is bad
politics to attract to attack trans kids and it is a shame on
this body that we work in that we all even have to be having
this conversation today. Thank you so much, Madam Chair,
when I yield back. The general lady yields.
I now recognize Mr. Gill from Texas.
Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, this is a, an excellent hearing
and and we really, really appreciate your leadership,
incredible leadership on this topic and on this community on
this issue. And I'd also like to thank our
our witnesses, Miss Turner and Miss McNabb for, for
particularly moving testimonies. And thank you for your bravery
for coming here. I know it takes a lot of guts to
testify before Congressional committee.
Mr. Lightfield, I'd like to ask you a few questions.
Do you think that men should be allowed in women's locker rooms?
Sir, those regulations are set by I'm just asking you yes or
no. Do you think men should be
allowed in women's locker rooms? I I don't have a personal
opinion on you don't have a person.
You have a personal opinion on a lot of things, but not on that
sure. I mean, it's it's a locker room
is not really an area where people interact.
So so the answer is yes, I don't think that men should be allowed
to share showers with women in athletic facilities.
I, I think that showering is a private activity and that it
should be private and it should be private.
There's oftentimes communal showers.
Are you OK with men showering with women?
I, I don't have an opinion on that in the context of USA
don't. Interesting.
That's a, that's an astounding thing to not have an opinion on.
I think most normal people have an opinion on that.
Are you OK with women being at a disadvantage when competing
against men in sports? Sir, mixed events happen all the
time and that's not my question are you OK with.
Let me ask it this way. Are you OK with CIS females
being at a disadvantage if their competitor, assuming that you're
talking about it's a yes or no question e-mail that they've met
the requirements set forth in the policy It Why did you post
on social media for the world to see?
You're asked in an in an anonymous question, which you
posted online. Are you OK with CIS females
being at a disadvantage? You said yeah, Yeah.
I believe it was Congressman Cloud that that had asked me
about that, Sir. And I'm I'm happy to address it
again. That was a one word answer to a
more nuanced topic. And I feel like if I could take
it back and expound a little bit more than proclaiming my time.
Do you think that women. Excuse me, do you think that
parents who don't want their daughters competing against men
and women's sports are whiny? No Sir, you don't.
Why did you write that on social media?
I've got a picture here where where you posted that you were
allegedly responding to a parent who didn't want their daughter
being being beaten up by men in sports competitions.
You said I'm not going to pull her from the sport and write a
whiny e-mail announcing my departure, Sir.
Mr. Congressman Jack had asked me about that.
And want to be crystal clear, that was an inappropriate
message. Do you think that they're
cowardly, Sir? No, I don't.
I don't at all. And in fact, why did you write
that on social media? I regret it, Sir.
I deleted it shortly after posting.
And I certainly don't feel that way anymore.
And given a lot of the messages that we receive and even
conversations, do you think, do you think that parents who don't
want their daughters competing against men in sports should be
compared to the Ku Klux Klan? No, absolutely.
And why did you do that in the message, Sir?
That was inappropriate. That was inappropriate.
Yes, Sir. Yeah, that you're right.
That isn't inappropriate. I'd like to read what you wrote
and what you posted on social media, responding allegedly to a
a lady who had these concerns. The only wizard that's going to
dig you out of the myopic hole you put yourself and your family
in is one of the quote Grand Wizard variety.
Inappropriate, Sir, and I acknowledge that I said it and I
will commit to never making a message like that again.
That that was in response to a parent according to you on
social media who had a problem with this?
Was this a real e-mail that you were responding to?
It was a real e-mail, Sir. I did not respond to it and hit
this was a real e-mail. Did did a, did an actual parent
write this or did you write this e-mail?
It was written by an actual person claiming to be a parent.
They were not a member of our were you that actual person?
No, Sir, you were not that actual person, but you staged
this, this whole interaction. The response, Sir, was was not
real and I I regret that. OK, You think it inclusivity at
presumably is a big part of of the fencing community.
Is that right? I would say so, Sir.
We're a very welcoming community and I'm proud.
Are you welcoming to Trump supporters?
Absolutely, absolutely. Then why did you with your in
your Facebook page from the fencing coach right?
Imagine being 1 of 71 million people dumb enough to vote re
election for a treasonous clown who's permanently banned from
Twitter for inciting and an insurrection.
You mad MAGA Bros, I acknowledge that.
I stated that in my personal capacity, Sir.
However, as chair that was from the fencing coach.
I have to acknowledge that 77 million people voted for him in
re election. That wasn't your personal
capacity. That was from your capacity as
quote the fencing coach online. Yes, that is that is my blog
Sir. That's my publication and I
acknowledge writing that. All right, my my time is up.
Thank you. I yield back.
Wow. OK.
Thank you for that, Mister Gill. I now recognize Mr. Crane from
Arizona. Thank you, Mr. Chairwoman.
Thank you to the guests for showing up today.
Many Americans ask me all the time, what is wrong with this
country? Why does it appear that we've
gone mad? And I think this subcommittee
hearing is a testimony to what has actually happened.
And I know I, I hold some beliefs that you know, you know,
they're my own beliefs. They're not everybody S beliefs,
but I tell them all the time, this is exactly what happens
when you allow God to be pushed out of everything.
This is what this is what we're seeing because God is clearly
spoken about this in Genesis 5/2.
He says I created them male and female.
And what's really going on up here in DC is just a microcosm
of culture. We've lost our minds.
We've pushed God out of everything.
And it's one of the reasons why it appears that we've gone mad
and one of the reasons we have two beautiful young women here
who are here to testify about how they've been abused in
sports by biological men. And none of my colleagues on the
other side of the aisle have asked you guys a single
question. Have you noticed that?
They don't care? They don't.
They don't hear you. They claim to be the party of
women. We got two women sitting right
here, and they could care less that you're here.
All they want to do is sit here and try and deflect and talk
about how we're trying to bully transgender kids, and none of us
are trying to do that. As a matter of fact, I feel
sorry for a lot of kids that grow up with gender dysphoria.
It's hard enough to grow up as it is, let alone taking that on
and having to deal with with that.
But that's not why we're here. They don't want to acknowledge
why we're here. We're here to protect young
women in women's sports from biological men.
You know, most of the men, real men that I know who came from
good families, they were raised to protect women.
It's something that we're all taught to do.
We have clearly failed to do that as a culture and a society,
and this hearing is a testimony to that.
I want to ask you, Mr. Layfield, did you grow up in a family
where your parents taught you to protect women?
Absolutely, Sir. My parents are here with me
today and and I'm proud of the lessons that they taught me.
They absolutely want me to protect.
Great, thank you. Then why aren't you doing that,
Mister Layfield? Why aren't you protecting women?
Because we got 2 sitting right right next to you who will tell
you that not only are you not protecting them, but you're
depriving them for from participating in in sports and
everything that goes along with that.
Why aren't you protecting women? So from a fencing standpoint,
it's one of the safest sports in the Olympic movement.
I know that, you know, you think swords present some kind of
danger. No, we're not talking about
swords. We're talking about biological
men, and you know it. Don't try, don't try those games
with me. We're not talking about swords.
We're talking about the fact that you and other men in A and
officials in authority have failed to protect young girls.
And it's pathetic. It is pathetic.
I'm not going to sit here and try and convince my colleagues
on the other side with biology or anything like that because
they've they're long gone. There's no study that I could
show them that would convince them that what they're doing is
wrong. I'm asking you, why have you not
protected young girls like these two sitting right next to you?
Sir, I believe we have protected young women in fencing.
It's OK. Really.
Hold on a second. Let's ask the expert witnesses.
Miss Turner, have men like Mr. Layfield protected you?
No. Have they protect?
Are they protecting other young girls from biological men
participating in sports? No, he glorifies it.
Miss McNabb, are men like Mr. Layfield protecting you and
other young women participating in women's sports?
Absolutely not. Do you feel safe?
No. You shouldn't, because guess
what? God created men and women
differently. And I know that this town and
many in this culture have a real problem with that.
But it is a fact, OK? It's just a fact.
And you guys know it. You have you have permanent
injuries for the rest of your life.
Is that correct, Miss Knapp? That's correct, Congressman.
Evil triumphs when good men and women do nothing.
Not only have you done nothing to protect these young women,
but you've actually cited with policies that are destructive to
young women's sports. You said you have a daughter,
Mr. Layfield. I do, Sir.
That's sad, man. That's sad that you wouldn't
protect young girls from what's going on in this in this
culture. And it's disgusting to listen to
these posts that you yourself posted.
I can't. I can't believe that you're
still the chairman of this organization.
I really can't after hearing some of those posts calling
parents who are concerned about this type of leadership KKK
members. Are you serious?
Shame on you bro, I yield back. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize Miss Mace from South Carolina.
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the invitation to
participate in today's hearing. Miss Goss Graves, so-called
quote, expert in women's rights. Do you know how many years it
took South Carolina to elect its first Republican woman to
Congress? Well, what year did?
100 years since women got the right to vote Do you know how
many years it took The Citadel, the military College of South
Carolina, to graduate its first woman?
157 years. So I have a series of yes or no
questions I would like to ask you based on some of your
previous statements and your opening statement today.
You said trans women are women. Miss Goss Graves, What is a
woman? So a woman is an adult female.
A woman identifies as a woman. And I actually think.
It what is What do you consider a female?
What is a female? So there are some women who were
assigned you. Say you're here to defend women.
You say you're here to defend women, but shouldn't you be able
to define one? Shouldn't you be able to define
one if you're from women's rights?
That's literally what. Miss Goss Grapes Do women have
penises? So again, I believe that women.
Democrats have gone so crazy women can have penises.
That's not a thing. That's not biology, it's not
science, and you sound like a lunatic.
And the women? Should young girls just get used
to penises in their locker rooms and showers?
My next question yes or no should what?
Should little girls get used to penises in their locker rooms
and showers? Yes or no I.
Know what you're talking about, but what I what I will.
Say, oh, I absolutely do. We've heard testimony today
about trans women. Those are women with penises.
Those aren't real women. I'm going to reclaim my time.
When President Trump issued an executive order to keep keep men
out of women's sports, thank God he did.
You said it was sexist bullying that harms all students.
Is it sexist, yes or no to protect women from men in
sports? Yes or no?
You can't answer one question. Is it sexist to acknowledge
basic science? Men and women are built
differently. Is it sexist to acknowledge
science? Can't answer the question Does
forcing little girls to Does forcing little girls to strip
down in front of men in locker rooms harm girls?
Does forcing little girls to strip down in front of men in
the locker room harm little girls?
Yes or no? Can't answer the question Does
forcing little girls to shower? I'm going to reclaim my time.
You can quit talking. These are yes or no questions.
You can answer them or not. Fine.
You've chosen not to answer the questions today because you
don't know how. I know it's shameful know how to
answer. Do you support?
Drugging and chopping off kids genitals in the name of
inclusion, is that a thing for you?
I have to say. Get off on that, all right.
When a biological man crushes the girl in a contact sport and
sends her to the ER, is that your idea of empowerment?
Is that empowering women? When a when a young man beats a
girl and takes her, sends her to the ER in a contact sport, is
that empowering, empowerment, Empowering women?
Is that what that is? Are you talking about Miss
McNabb? I'm talking about any woman who
gets crushed in a sport by a man physically and has to go to the
ER. McNabb and others.
I'm going to reclaim my time. Crush and protocol.
Miss, Madam Chair will show that the witness.
I'm going to reclaim my time. You can stop talking now.
I'm reclaiming. This is Miss Mace's time.
Miss Goss Graves. I would like some of that time
back, Madam Chair. If a man can be a woman, just
identify as a woman, as you say, just by saying so, what is the
point of having women's sports? What is the point of women's
spaces? What is the point of women's
scholarships? If you're just going to allow
men to take them away? Why even bother?
Why bother? The loudest voices?
I'm not asking you a question. I'm speaking.
The loudest voices on the left claiming to fight for women's
rights are the very first people to take them away, steal them
and tear these women down. You're the first to erase them.
Mr. Liefeldt Goss. Miss Goss Graves, you all are
shameful. I don't.
I didn't come here to play with an ideology of hell bent on
erasing women and grooming children.
That's what you all are. You're groomers.
And we're not going to the chairwoman and I, Madam Chair,
I'm not blaming. This is this is Miss Mace's
time. Miss Goss Graves.
Miss Goss Graves, this is shocking.
This about Miss Goss Graves. You are not recognized.
OK. But I think I just want to say
that that is a shock. You are not recognized, Miss
Goss Graves. The time belongs to Miss Mace.
OK, fine. Like Chairwoman Graham, I've
been holding the line for women, standing between perverts and
the rights of women and girls. And we're not going to let
anyone in this country forget what a woman is.
Mr. Lay felt. Will you face Miss Stephanie
Turner today? We look her in the eyes.
Will you apologize to her for the way that she was treated by
USA Fencing? Standing up for women's, women
and girls women's rights, standing her ground as a woman
who wanted only wanted to fence with other women?
Will you apologize to her today? Congresswoman Mace, Miss Turner
was given a black heart under our rules.
Will you apologize for the way she.
Was. Treated so that's a no.
Don't do it, Congresswoman. If I could respond to one thing,
you. Know what's you know what's
unbecoming of a leader? You said this just in your.
Testimony just like 5 minutes ago, yes ma'am, that you've said
several things that are just disgusting and unbecoming of a
leader. To use your words.
It's unbecoming of a leader today to acknowledge what has
happened to this young woman. You just look at her face and
look what she has been through, the courage it took her to stand
up for her rights as a woman and other women in other sports all
across the country. And you can't even as a man,
look her in the eye and apologize for what happened to
her. And as my colleague Congressman
Grain said, real men protect women.
You're not one. And I yield back the Gentlelady
yields. In closing, I want to thank our
witnesses once again for their testimony today.
I now yield to the Ranking Member Stansbury for closing
remarks for three minutes. All right.
Well, it's been an interesting journey today, as it often is in
this committee. You know, I want to start out by
saying, yes, thank you to our witnesses for sitting here in
this toxic soup for the last three hours.
It's ironic because the jurisdiction of this committee
is government efficiency, and we just spent three hours talking
about fencing USA fencing, trans athletes, girls.
We had my friends across the aisle mansplaining to us about
how they're protecting women. I mean, yeah, this was a really
good use of government time and money.
Meanwhile, behind closed doors, as we pointed out many times
during this hearing, my Republican colleagues across the
aisle are trying to cut a deal to cut Medicaid.
Now, I don't want to diminish anybody's life altering
experiences, and I am genuinely sorry to hear that.
Both of our young lady witnesses who are here today had horrible
experiences. It is bad.
I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience.
And, and I want to acknowledge that, and I appreciate you
coming and appearing before the committee today, but I don't
need a bunch of GOP Republican colleagues mansplaining at me
for three hours to tell me that they're trying to take away my
rights. They're trying to take away your
medical care. They're trying to take away
environmental protections. They're trying to take away food
assistance for the seniors and children of this country.
Like this hearing has nothing to do with substance for the United
States. It has nothing to do with
defending women's rights, has nothing to do with defending the
rights of girls. It is all about using the issue
of transgenders live transgender lives to distract from the
nefarious plots. They're actually happening in
this building while we're sitting here to actually take
away your civil rights, your human rights, and your access to
vital life saving care and programs that are vital to
millions of Americans. That is actually what is going
on here. But it is actually dangerous to
the lives of trans individuals because trans individuals are
being targeted. They're facing violence.
And the only thing that is waste, fraud and abuse in the
Doge subcommittee today is the waste of the last three hours of
our lives that we will never reclaim.
The fraud that is this committee and the abuse of Americans that
is spewed out of the mouths on the other side of the aisle for
the last three hours. And so I want to say to everyone
out there who is listening, whether you're a transgender
American and LGBTQ plus individual or any American out
there, we are fighting for you. We love you, we support you, and
we will stand against hate. And with that I yield back.
I hope the Democrats keep fighting for the mentally ill,
biological men who keep trying to beat down women in sports
because it's a losing position. It's a losing battle, and that
was proven in the last election. Today, we conducted oversight of
our nation's national governing body for the sport of fencing,
and with so many of our nation's institutions, USA Fencing has
been captured by the left. They've banned the national
anthem before competitions, selected tournament competition
locations based on state abortion and DEI laws, and
punish female athletes for refusing to compete against men.
Earlier today, the ranking member called us weird for
standing up for girls and women when she's the one who supports
sex changes, surgeries for little kids, and forcing women
to undress in front of creepy perverted men.
I'll let the American people decide who the weirdos are
because I think we know the American people are tired of
cultural Marxism and perverted sexual ideas being shoved down
their throats, especially when it is being done with our own
tax dollars. The issue of men competing in
women's sports shouldn't even have to be a discussion.
It's unfair, unsafe and straight up abusive.
As board chair of USA Fencing, Mr. Lefelt has used his position
to push his own personal trans agenda on the sport.
As a matter of fact, Liz Kokab is the most decorated American
veteran fencer in history. And that is a man, A biological
man who is a 9th career gold medalist.
Let's be real, Mr. Lafelt is not pretending anymore.
He's defending the trans. And here's the issue.
When you're sending emails to yourself, calling yourself
Dorothy and you get caught and have to apologize for lying like
that here, right here in the oversight committee, that is
pathetic. When you're calling parents
whiny for defending their own little girls from the biological
males that you're allowing to compete against them, that's
pathetic. Mr. Leyfelt, you should resign
from the chair of USA Fencing. You do not deserve the position
that you have. And that's the recommendation I
have as the chair of the Doge Subcommittee on Oversight.
And furthermore, it is pathetic that you're a father of a little
girl that you would be perfectly fine to teach and encourage to
lose because there is no female athlete that ever wants to lose
or come in second place. You're sitting next to two
champions next to you today that never wanted to lose, that never
wanted to suffer a brain injury, that never wanted to have to
face a male athlete in their sport and you failed them and
you are failing women. You need to resign.
With that and without objection, all members have 5 legislative
days within which to submit materials and additional written
questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the
witnesses. If there is no further business,
without objection, the committee stands adjourned.