1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,600 This week I'm joined by AM Torres and Tori Gray and we're 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,560 talking all about JavaScript and your website migrations. 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,800 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Search with Canada. 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,800 I am your host, Jack Chambers Ward and this is the weekly 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,160 podcast where I interview the best, the brightest in the SEO 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,320 industry and also talk about the news every single month as well 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,320 with my Co host Mark Williams Cook. 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:35,040 This week I am joined by perhaps the most requested guests in my 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,320 2 1/2 a bit years of hosting this podcast. 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,040 I am joined by the duo behind the Gray dot Company, Sam Torres 11 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:46,840 and Tori Gray. If you are in the SEO industry, 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,440 which if you're watching or listening to this, you probably 13 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,520 are, you probably have heard of Sam and Tori and all the 14 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,120 fantastic work they do around technical SEO. 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,640 The webinars, the series, the podcast appearances, the talks 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,800 that they've done, all that kind of stuff. 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,840 And it is a real, real pleasure to finally sit down and have a 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,840 conversation with two people I have followed for a very long 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,520 time and who inspire me with their technical knowledge as 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,680 well. Of course, please do like and 21 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,480 subscribe if you haven't already. 22 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,640 You can press like down below. That will hugely help the 23 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,120 podcast spread out and get caught up in YouTube's algorithm 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,720 and spread the word there. If you want to keep up to date 25 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,120 and catch every single episode as it comes out every Monday 26 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,360 morning here in the UK time, please do subscribe. 27 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,160 You can follow us on Spotify. You can follow us on Apple 28 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,840 Podcasts as well. Of course, please rate and 29 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:38,640 review and all that kind of stuff as well. 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,360 That hugely helps US basically grow this show, get more guests 31 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,800 and do more cool stuff because I don't know if you noticed a 32 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,360 couple of weeks ago Mark and I were talking about the plans. 33 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,320 I've got some big plans for this year. 34 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,560 We're we're going to be a very busy year podcast happening. 35 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,520 So stay tuned for very exciting things, including another live 36 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,520 Brighton podcast crossover with the SEO Mindset crew of Sarah 37 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,720 and Tasman. And I'll actually be filming 38 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,680 around the conference itself as well. 39 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,360 So stay tuned for basically on the show floor interviews, 40 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,680 quizzes and questions and all that kind of stuff. 41 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,360 Coming up after Brightness Year, which is happening on the 10th 42 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,160 and 11th of April 2025 S Stay tuned for all sorts of cool 43 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,720 content coming up over the next couple of months and some 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,280 amazing guests as well as you've come to expect. 45 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,320 Anyway, I will not waste any more of your time and let's get 46 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,520 to our conversation with Sam and Tori. 47 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:42,800 And of course, before that, a word from our sponsors, Sarah 48 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,160 here. I meet Tasman. 49 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:45,960 And me, Jack. And we're. 50 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,120 All here today because we have some pretty exciting news to 51 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,040 share with you all. We certainly do. 52 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,040 Who wants to do the honours? Tasman, I reckon you've got this 53 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,480 one. Yeah, I reckon so too. 54 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,920 Tasman, go ahead, you have the honours. 55 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,600 Right here goes. Then after four successful live 56 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:12,120 podcasts, we are back again. That's right, this is the 5th 57 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,720 live podcast that we're doing. Search with Candor and the SEO 58 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,000 My Podcast are teaming up yet again to record a podcast in 59 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,480 front of a live audience. Becoming a bit of a Brighton SEO 60 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,200 tradition, it feels like five times and you can join us for a 61 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,680 raw and authentic conversation about how to build your personal 62 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,360 brand. We'll be discussing what this 63 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,360 means, why it's important, and sharing practical advice, tips, 64 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,400 and our own experiences as well. Wow, it's pretty jam packed, 65 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:40,400 right? And it's. 66 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,360 All. Free to attend and there's going 67 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,440 to be pizza, snacks and drinks included again for free. 68 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,960 When's it happening? The night before Brighton SEO at 69 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,240 7:00 PM on Wednesday the 9th of April 2025. 70 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:02,640 Tickets are now up for grabs and last time we sold out, so if 71 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,240 you're interested in joining us, grab your tickets now before 72 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,320 they all go. No one wants that awful FOMO 73 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,600 feeling and you can help us spread the word as well. 74 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,640 Please do tell your friends, Tell your colleagues. 75 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,000 You don't even have to necessarily have a Brighton SEO 76 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,480 ticket to attend. Just if you're in Brighton on 77 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,120 the 9th of April 2025, you can come along and join us. 78 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,640 The more the merrier. Now we'll be popping a link in 79 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,480 the show notes so you can get all the information you need and 80 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,000 grab your ticket. We're really looking forward to 81 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:37,720 seeing you on the night. My guests this week are two of 82 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,680 the most requested and recommended guests in the 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,640 history of search with Canada. I can only apologize that it's 84 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,480 taken me this long. They are the dynamic duo driving 85 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,800 the success of the world renowned SEO consultancy, The 86 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,200 Grey dot Company. They have been featured in some 87 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,920 of the very best marketing conferences, podcasts, webinars, 88 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,000 publications and everything in between. 89 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,600 They were brought together via the Women in Tech SEO community. 90 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,520 Shout to read and Erin and the amazing Women in Tech SEO 91 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,440 community. A love of books, a love of gin, 92 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,000 and most importantly, alignment on business values. 93 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:09,800 I'll kick off with my first guest. 94 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,400 Despite being American, she hails from Toronto, ON Canada. 95 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,560 She brings a combination of strategy, knowledge and kindness 96 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,640 to a years of experience in digital marketing. 97 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,920 We share a love of XKCD and The X-Files. 98 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,880 She is the CEO and founder of the Grey dot Company. 99 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,320 Welcome to the show, Tori Gray. Thank you so much for having me. 100 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:29,760 We'll have to talk X-Files sometimes. 101 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,240 We will, we will definitely have to do that and next. 102 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,520 Hailing from Atlanta, GA, she combines the creative flair, 103 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,000 technical expertise and a holistic approach from her years 104 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,160 of experience in digital marketing. 105 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,240 We share a love of JRPGS Shout out to Zeno Gears by the way, 106 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,000 and board games. She is the chief digital officer 107 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,280 at Gray dot Company and today the release of the podcast. 108 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:53,920 The 10th of March is her birthday. 109 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,920 Welcome to the show and happy birthday Sam Torres. 110 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,080 Thank you so much. Yeah, 29 again, right. 111 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,120 That's what we're going to go with. 112 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:02,280 Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. 113 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,920 Just kidding, 37, that'll be a good year. 114 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:06,080 Something like that. We'll be fine. 115 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,320 But thank you both for finally joining me. 116 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,720 I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass by saying you are the 117 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,400 most recommended and requested. I have had so many people say, 118 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:15,680 oh, you need to hang out with Tori. 119 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,400 So many people who have met you guys. 120 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:18,880 Oh, I've spoke to Sam the other day. 121 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:20,480 You really need to bring her on the podcast. 122 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,720 I have been thinking about contacting guys for so long. 123 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,720 I know I've hung out with Begum who you've done SEO opinionated 124 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,400 opinions with so many times. And it was just this like, 125 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,480 finally, let's make things happen. 126 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,600 I know I contacted you guys a little while ago and like, yes, 127 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,480 let's talk about it. Let's get into migrations and 128 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,080 JavaScript because, oh, we're going to get technical. 129 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,160 We're going to get I, I think pretty, pretty, maybe not 130 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,120 controversial, but I think we're going to have a lot to talk 131 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,120 about, that's for sure. We have we have opinions and 132 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:56,000 we're shy with especially on this topic, so we'll see how it. 133 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,680 Goes there we go that that's what we've got you here for 134 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,680 exactly like I said, you, I want your SEO opinions. 135 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,400 So I guess we'll kick things off with perhaps if somebody doesn't 136 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,640 know what could possibly go wrong with JavaScript in 137 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,760 migrations, maybe some of the common issues that people might 138 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,520 find. Because I know I've done a fair 139 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,960 few site migrations of my time, but JavaScript is definitely not 140 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,000 my area of expertise. And perhaps that might be the 141 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,640 same for the viewers and listeners at home. 142 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,520 Is there anything that kind of springs to mind as the most 143 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,920 common things you might encounter when it comes to 144 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,760 JavaScript and migrations? So I think to start it's a 145 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,720 migration. So it's still, I'd say like the 146 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,800 most common ones are still the ones that are not JavaScript 147 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,760 specific. So like no redirects is a common 148 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,000 one or your staging environment is getting indexed before you 149 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,520 actually push it live, right? This, those are probably the 150 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,800 ones we see maybe like younger brands, the kind of mistakes 151 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,720 that they typically make. But yeah, some of the things 152 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,840 that we definitely see when you are migrating to a JavaScript 153 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,040 solution or even from one JavaScript front end to another, 154 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,000 usually what happens is requirements aren't built out 155 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,280 for your SEO, global data, meta tags, things like that. 156 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,680 Redirects being offered through JavaScript instead of actually 157 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,960 serving proper three O ones or three O eights, whichever 158 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:19,800 flavour you decide you want to do. 159 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,440 There's a lot of times that developers are like, no, it's a 160 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,960 redirect, it's fine, right? Because to them functioning 161 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,160 exactly with what every. Redirect does the same, right? 162 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,880 Yeah, yeah. Of course it's not, but they're 163 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,520 not SEO experts, so why would they know that? 164 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,240 The other though, I would say, and Tori feel free to interact 165 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,240 wherever you disagree with me, but I would say with JavaScript 166 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,600 sites not understanding how the rendering process is changing or 167 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,120 how it's making your content less available or more 168 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,000 available, that's really kind of the biggest problem with any 169 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,080 kind of JavaScript based site. But yeah, we usually see there's 170 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,200 just blind spots, especially from migration. 171 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,280 Yeah, I mean, by the time if you're doing a migration, you're 172 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,960 probably already in front of like the big full stop issues in 173 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,800 terms of like, hey, do you have unique URLs that that is usually 174 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,280 not a problem in a migration, but it can be a problem with the 175 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,000 JavaScript site or like are you using hashes for your URLs? 176 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,160 Because those are not unique URL variations as far as Google is 177 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:22,280 concerned. So that doesn't count. 178 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:29,160 But my so I'd say the other ones we run into all the time just in 179 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,160 JavaScript audits and migrations too, are whoops. 180 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,840 My links aren't real links. We're using no on clicks. 181 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,280 We're using router links. We're using things that are like 182 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,640 functionally links in an app. If you're in like a mobile app 183 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,560 on your phone, you don't need it to change the URL. 184 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,840 You're just doing things. Those are all like valid ways to 185 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,680 move users throughout an app or a site. 186 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,560 But Google doesn't recognize it as a link unless it's an A and 187 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:58,560 it's an href, obviously. So I'd say that's, that's the 188 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:00,280 big one. A similar thing can happen with 189 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,320 images where sometimes they're using like CSS or other ways to 190 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:10,440 deliver those images instead of with a, you know, an IMG or just 191 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,560 like weird, Oh, we don't have metadata or we don't have 192 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:18,320 metadata somehow on mobile or like there, there's weird stuff 193 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,480 like that. Or to Sam's point, I think the 194 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,760 other big blockbuster issue that we often do run into is the 195 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,760 whoops, my contents just not accessible period, even upon 196 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,960 rendering. Or then you're having like the 197 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:36,080 conversation of like, is it, is this content OK in it must be 198 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,520 rendered or is it? Does it are we going to require 199 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,280 it to be in in the response HTML or not? 200 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:43,880 Like how important is that to the page? 201 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,280 How important is the page? These are the kinds of debates 202 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,560 that we have. Also, is JavaScript changing 203 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:52,440 some of these really important fields? 204 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,520 That's a good one. Is the canonical changing once 205 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:00,640 JavaScript has been rendered versus or like we also with H 206 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:05,080 refling implementations using JavaScript sites, we see that 207 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:10,480 change pretty often if they're not using like a server side 208 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,600 rendering or similar solution. Yeah, we'll see. 209 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,480 Like I said, those those big signals that really are telling 210 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,880 Google whether or not this page is worth their time, that 211 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,000 changes and I think ultimately just reduces the trust. 212 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,440 But those are the common things that we see happening. 213 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,320 And I think a lot of it again, just comes to documentation for 214 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:38,160 developers SEO wise isn't super accessible or really pushed for 215 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,080 the dev team. And so I think the SEO team 216 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,320 sometimes has a hard time though creating all of that. 217 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,520 Here's my requirements for everything that needs to happen 218 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,440 on the site because for most of us, we came into SEO from a 219 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,560 marketing perspective and not from a product management 220 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:54,480 perspective. And so I think it's just it's 221 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:55,880 part of the discipline of learning. 222 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,840 But yeah, those are some of the the common things that we see. 223 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,240 Yeah, you. Don't want your your meta robots 224 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,400 to suddenly be a no index when you didn't expect them to be. 225 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,640 And that that does happen. Like whoops, we accidentally and 226 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:12,360 Google's supposed to only pay attention right in first wave 227 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:13,960 indexing. They're supposed to only look to 228 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,960 the response HTML, but if they see it, they're going to respect 229 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:21,440 it and so just weird stuff will happen when you conflict like 230 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,480 that. Yeah, definitely. 231 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,120 I think there's that. I've had my first experience 232 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,000 with a a single page application a couple of months ago actually. 233 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,280 And it was this delightful thing of like, yeah, thank you 234 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,080 commiserations, right. And it was like, oh, all of the 235 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,200 URLs are just changing. I was like, I know, I've I've 236 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,720 heard of like dynamic URL changes and and non static URLs. 237 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,800 It's like, OK, that's pretty weird. 238 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,800 And then I looked at it and all of the title tags were the same 239 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,360 as the home page, even when you seemingly changed it in the back 240 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,520 end. After a few seconds, they 241 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,520 reverted background to the just home brand name. 242 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,720 I was like, oh for God's sake, like what's going on here? 243 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:01,880 That's. A weird issue. 244 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,600 Yeah, yeah, we, we had no idea. We had some fun digging around 245 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:07,800 there and trying to work out what we want. 246 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,840 Turns out it was a JavaScript issue and there was a funny 247 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,460 thing. I know Mark Williams Cook, my Co 248 00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:17,680 host and boss here at Canada was talking to Martin Split a little 249 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:19,560 while ago Speaking of JavaScript. 250 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,960 And it was a funny thing where like Martin did a talk at search 251 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,160 and orange was like if you come to me with your JavaScript 252 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,000 problems, 99 times out of 100 they are not a JavaScript 253 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,280 problem, they're AU problem. And he said unless the one 254 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,960 exception is you Mark, where you actually sent me a real 255 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,920 JavaScript problem. And I was like, I know that 256 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,560 website he's talking about well. I would argue it is a JavaScript 257 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:41,560 problem. It's a JavaScript implementation 258 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:42,800 problem. You did it wrong. 259 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,800 Well yeah, like it's a user error, right? 260 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,040 Like you built it wrong in a way that Google says doesn't work 261 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:49,360 for them. Yeah. 262 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,360 Exactly, exactly. I think it's there's that I feel 263 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,960 like trying to explain JavaScript and like I said, I'm 264 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,600 very early in my JavaScript journey compared to you guys. 265 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,160 I'm definitely not the most technical SEO, but like 266 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,360 explaining it to non-technical peoples. 267 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,800 Like it does all the cool interactive stuff on a website, 268 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,480 right? It's like, yeah, but you can do 269 00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:10,960 all of this interesting stuff at the back. 270 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,400 And you mentioned canonicals and HF lines and all that, kind of 271 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,200 like server side rending versus client side rendering, all this 272 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,320 kind of stuff that I think a lot of us kind of just take for 273 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,920 granted if we're so used to just, oh, it's standard CMS work 274 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,360 with HTML will be fine. And perfect example, you 275 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,840 mentioned earlier to like the, the CSS stuff you'll hit. 276 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,560 And I was like, oh, none of these images have any 277 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,480 limitations on them at all. So they just render a full 278 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,440 resolution and just take over the page. 279 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,240 I was like, OK, it's the entire screen size of every image. 280 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,040 And some of them are really high realism. 281 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:42,320 Some of them are tiny, some of them are bigger. 282 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,360 And it was just this crazy, like mishmash collage of images. 283 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,400 I'm like, what is this? That's OK, Yeah. 284 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,040 That's that's that's the CSS problem. 285 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,000 As as a developer, I'm going to call that out as like someone 286 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,520 didn't really do their job, but that's OK. 287 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,520 But I won't make it to their shade. 288 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,120 Yeah. But I will also say one of the 289 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,320 things to know, I think like to set expectations with our 290 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:14,040 clients pretty regularly when moving to AJS site is if you are 291 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,520 a person who likes to look at their crawl settings in GSC like 292 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,200 we are, I think we probably live in there maybe a little more 293 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,840 than we should. But you do typically start to 294 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,280 see like your Jason, like when you're looking at what are the 295 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,680 types of docs that or documents that Google's crawling, you'll 296 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:36,840 see the Jason kind of explode. And I would say maybe about 7 297 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,720 times out of 10, totally fine, totally normal, everything's 298 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,080 good. Another three times out of 10, 299 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,680 something might be wrong with like the build process or the 300 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,640 API 'cause there's definitely AP is happening between where the 301 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,160 content is housed in the front end. 302 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:52,360 And so there's just a lot happening. 303 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,040 And especially if you are a SAS company, so there's actually an 304 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,640 app behind your website, things like that, it can start to 305 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,560 actually blow up and take over your entire call budget. 306 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,200 Like we've seen sites that had maybe 4000 pages and over 307 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,440 100,000 Jason requests because these API issues. 308 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:18,320 So that is one to kind of you don't know to look for it until 309 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,480 you're like, something's broken, something's wrong. 310 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,360 How do I find it? So yeah, I'm trying to spread 311 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,240 the knowledge of. That's something to definitely 312 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:27,400 look at if you're finding issues. 313 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,440 I think a lot of those things are there. 314 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,600 You don't know it's a problem until it's a problem and then 315 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,120 you need to go and investigate. I think that's a lot of the fun. 316 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,120 I'd say the fun of migration seems like a kind of paradox 317 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,440 there, right Link to many people. 318 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,840 But I think that's a lot of it. When you get into that detective 319 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,280 mode of like, OK, time to problem solve. 320 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,240 I know the the images aren't working and I know there's this 321 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:49,360 thing that is controlling the images. 322 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,360 So what is going wrong? And like you said, digging into 323 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,800 the code, digging into the side of it, I'd find so interesting 324 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,000 and fun, even when it's super stressful. 325 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,920 And oh God, we need to launch in three days time. 326 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,400 A freak out time but. Fun, weird problems and you're 327 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,000 just like what in the world is happening or how did they do 328 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:06,560 this? What? 329 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,520 Yeah, it's also. Oh yeah, The number of times 330 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,800 we've seen something and I'm just like, I don't even know how 331 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,240 I would code something to do that, right? 332 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,280 That's just kind of incredible. But, well, why? 333 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:22,680 Impressively bad. Almost. 334 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,160 I mean, it's software like it breaks, it's weird. 335 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,440 It can be built, you know, sometimes you have to do this 336 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,160 hacky thing to make it work, to work around things. 337 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,920 And so like things can just get ugly or weird or fascinating. 338 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,640 It's just, it's a, it's a brave new. 339 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,920 World and you guys mentioned migrating to a JavaScript 340 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,480 platform from a more standard CMS stuff. 341 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,360 That's something I've actually not experienced before. 342 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:53,400 I've only kind of done like bringing on straight away with 343 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,800 an SPA or CMSCMS kind of stuff. What are the kind of things 344 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,320 where you would kind of consider that? 345 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,840 Is there a particular sort of business case or is it the 346 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,280 dreaded SEF thing of it depends? Like is it time to have to start 347 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:11,040 the drinking game? So I, I mean, like all things I 348 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,880 I'd pull up and say like SE OS are usually not making the 349 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,000 platform decisions, right? Like SE OS are usually following 350 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,320 the business decided to do this. Oh crap, Now I have to deal with 351 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,720 it. Which is the 100% of the time 352 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,200 with an SPA like an SEO. An SEO would never choose to 353 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,960 have an SPA. Or at least I hope not. 354 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,400 It's not built. To be a, it's built to be an 355 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,160 app. Like there's things you can do, 356 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,080 there's things you can do to make it better, don't get me 357 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,000 wrong, But like, would you ever go out of your way to do an SPA 358 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,880 period? No, like, I mean, if you're 359 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,400 building an internal tool, if you're building an app like it's 360 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,080 perfectly valid software, don't get me wrong, but from an SEO 361 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,920 public facing website for marketing purposes, like it's 362 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,440 not the tool you want. I mean, developers like to build 363 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,400 things and sometimes they're like, I just really, really love 364 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,080 this tool and I want to use it because I think it's cool. 365 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,080 And like that's how the decision to move the platform changes. 366 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,720 And like I've seen e-commerce websites on SP as and it's so 367 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,200 ugly, it's so bad and it does not work and I'm sorry. 368 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,520 So it's not building Spas for those use cases. 369 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,560 But Spas are like one particular flavor of JavaScript platform, 370 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:20,720 right? Like there's plenty of 371 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:21,920 JavaScript platforms that are not. 372 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,240 And I think there are a lot more valid use cases for other 373 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,520 JavaScript platforms. So I think Sam probably wants to 374 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:30,720 talk about that. So I don't want to steal her 375 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,520 Thunder. No, you're totally fine. 376 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,440 So going back to, you know, when are you going from a more 377 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,680 traditional CMS solution like a WordPress right to JavaScript. 378 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:47,240 So I would say and and Full disclosure, I have been in this 379 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,840 camp of I love JavaScript front ends. 380 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,800 I love the idea of a headless CMS for a while. 381 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,720 Like I stopped doing any kind of WordPress development probably 5 382 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:04,560 or 6 years ago because I was just so dumb with PHP and it was 383 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,880 really frustrating that we kept doing all these things and 384 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,320 WordPress development and plug insurance and all that to break 385 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,560 the default or the native functionality of WordPress. 386 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,520 I'm like, why don't we do something different? 387 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,560 Which I guess could also be how I feel about JavaScript, but 388 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,320 that's probably so boxed for another day. 389 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,800 But really it's about, to me, it's the, it's the separation of 390 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,440 the content from the actual experience, which, you know, at 391 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,240 that point you're using specialization. 392 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,160 So I actually really like that. So some of the biggest projects 393 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,680 it, it was WordPress. And now they're just changing 394 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,480 the front end because how many editors, marketing teams, you 395 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,200 know, content teams are used to the WordPress editor. 396 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,480 But if you try to introduce anything else, their head might 397 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,560 explode, you know, so, so you're just rebuilding the front end. 398 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,800 So the reasons why you would want to do that. 399 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:07,760 So typically JavaScript, front JavaScript based front ends on, 400 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,520 as long as they're actually got the functionalities that you 401 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,400 need are typically much more performant than anything that, 402 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,160 you know, WordPress is PHP based. 403 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,920 So that means anytime you're trying to load anything, a call 404 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,920 is made to the server that gets really slow pretty quickly, 405 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,040 right? So usually they're they're 406 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,000 higher performance. That's also when you have a 407 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,400 headless CMS is when you start being able to have really like, 408 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,240 it's just the content management. 409 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,000 And now you can be presenting that content in all different 410 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,080 kinds of modalities. So instead of being focused only 411 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,800 on a website, you might also be able to use the same CMS for 412 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,840 writing your ad copy, for sending out emails for, you 413 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,880 know, sending alerts and push notifications to your app users 414 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,160 on their watches or their phones. 415 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,480 All of that can actually go into one place. 416 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,360 So for larger enterprise companies where you are thinking 417 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:05,360 about that Omni channel content workflow and how do you keep it 418 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:08,120 consistent and how do you make sure every piece of content goes 419 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:09,520 through the same approval process. 420 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,680 If you're actually using a true CMS that is only focused on 421 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,080 managing that content, then that enables you to do it. 422 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,920 So like I say, kind of a soapbox and, and obviously I'm very 423 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:25,560 biased, but I think it's, it's a way to be able to scale. 424 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,160 And the other piece of that is if you want to change the look 425 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:33,040 and feel, it's not a migration of content every time, right? 426 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,280 Because if you wanted to change the theme for a WordPress, 427 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,400 usually it ends up being like this huge content migration in 428 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,200 addition to the the theme writing. 429 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,480 Now all I'm doing is essentially rewriting the theme. 430 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:45,960 But my content doesn't have to change. 431 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,960 I don't have to worry about migration migrating that I don't 432 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,120 have to worry about moving. Because I will say with any kind 433 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,000 of migration, we see that go wrong pretty often. 434 00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:55,960 Content just doesn't come over cleanly. 435 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:01,720 So yeah, I, I think there's some real use cases and hopefully 436 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,280 we'll see more of it. Yeah. 437 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,160 I mean, at the end of the day, JavaScript is rich and lush and 438 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,360 it creates amazing content experiences and website 439 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:14,080 experiences for users. And that is going to, you know, 440 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,600 impact how people feel about your brand and like their 441 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,840 interaction with you as a company overall. 442 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,080 And those things will help your SEO indirectly, right? 443 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,880 But brand helps SEO. We want to be great brands. 444 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,000 We want to grow brands. That's going to be, it's 445 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,280 important today and it's becoming more important it feels 446 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,080 like every single day and JavaScript can help us get 447 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,440 there. There are some SEO kind of 448 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,680 stepping stones or barriers or boxes to check just like 449 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,840 anything else in the world. But it is very possible to have 450 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:46,160 an extremely performance site on a JavaScript platform. 451 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,080 It's absolutely possible. Enthusiastic nodding. 452 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,160 Absolutely. Yeah. 453 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:53,960 I think there's a, a real angle to that. 454 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,360 I hadn't even considered until you guys mentioned it was that 455 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,440 the brand side of it. And I think it's been a 456 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,080 conversation I've had so much throughout 2024. 457 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,320 It's continuing into 2025 on the podcast as well where you talk 458 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,480 about alignment across channels, you talk about not working with 459 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,840 SEO and a silo. I know you guys know this and a 460 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,000 lot of the listeners, viewers know this, but this has been the 461 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,080 conversation that is ongoing for the last, I feel, few years or 462 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:16,880 so, but certainly the last year on this podcast. 463 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,400 And then this being like bringing a headless CMS where 464 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,560 you can, like you said, push to all these different things at 465 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,360 the same time from the same place really allows you to unify 466 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,560 that stuff. As you said, Sam, and then, as 467 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,720 you said, Tori, it gets to look really cool and be more 468 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,600 interactive. And I, I don't, I'm, I'm sure 469 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:35,800 you guys sometimes feel the same way. 470 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,960 You go to a website, it's like, oh, this looks like it was built 471 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,240 in 1998. Cool. 472 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,880 Right, fun. Sometimes you want the rest of 473 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,880 the experience. That's the thing that well. 474 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,440 It's the fact that the Space Stream website still lives as it 475 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,440 was in 1997. I love it. 476 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,880 You know, like, yeah. Or 1999, I don't remember. 477 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,080 What you were I'll bring your life with profiles back. 478 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,480 We'll be extremely where's. Tom, he did it right. 479 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,200 The one the one tech billionaire we can still trust is Tom. 480 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,520 From that space. He just went off and became a 481 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,000 photographer. I think he just made all of his 482 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:12,800 money. And then I was like, I'm a 483 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,080 travel photographer now. See you later. 484 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:15,240 I was. Like why wouldn't you just go 485 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,040 and try and donate? Trying to take over the world 486 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,040 like all the other ones, apparently. 487 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,960 Any Anyway, we don't have time to get onto that but. 488 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,240 Oh man. But that having that modern feel 489 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:31,000 to a site and as you said, Tori as a brand as a whole makes you 490 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,040 feel more modern and more relevant. 491 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,920 And and maybe because we are techie minded, we are SEO 492 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,400 people, we are marketing people. But I think that subconsciously 493 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,720 reflects to people who aren't even in this industry as well, 494 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,520 right? Even if your customers are not 495 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,040 necessarily marketing people or technically knowledgeable 496 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,120 people, just having a thing that feels fast and moves nicely. 497 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:54,400 And I was showing a a friend of mine who's like a, a local that 498 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,360 owns a one person local business. 499 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,640 And I was talking to him about his website, which is on 500 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,880 WordPress by the way, Speaking of which. 501 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,680 And he's like, oh, I've got some real problems. 502 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,600 Like is it plug insurance? He's like, yes, it's plug 503 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:05,880 insurance. Like, yeah, I guessed it was 504 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:07,400 bloody plug insurance. Of course it was. 505 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,640 How many analytics plug insurance do you have running at 506 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,160 the same time? 30 Brilliant, excellent, lovely. 507 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,880 We've got the GA 41. We've got some other one and 508 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,200 also monster insights as well, like, OK, cool, no, don't need 509 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,520 that. That was fun. 510 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,040 And then I showed him a headless EMS stuff. 511 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:24,720 I showed him storyblock and I was like, oh, check out this 512 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,640 thing and look at this thing. I was like, look how this moves. 513 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,760 And he was like, I didn't know you could have a like where the 514 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,320 image like swoops in over the cross and stuff like, yeah. 515 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,160 And that's just a content block essentially. 516 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,080 Like it's a super simple thing to do, but compared to static 517 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,640 image gallery and like, carousels and stuff, it's like 518 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,320 this feels like a website from this century rather than than 519 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:47,080 last, Yeah. I mean, you want happy users at 520 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,360 the end of the day, you can bring some some of that surprise 521 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:53,720 and delight, right? Like make people happy. 522 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,000 Yeah. Well, you don't talk enough 523 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,600 about surprise and delight in UX. 524 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,080 I feel like that's something we should talk about more. 525 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,800 Add that to like the the pillars of like accessibility and all 526 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,720 that kind of crawl ability, discoverability, surprise and 527 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,720 delight needs to be something we're focusing on for sure. 528 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:12,960 It's so. Important. 529 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,680 Like a little touch. Yeah, exactly. 530 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,360 I, I for me, and again, me being a nerd and all that because 531 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:19,760 stuff. Maybe I'm an outlier here, but 532 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,880 it's that attention to detail on those little touches that make a 533 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,040 huge difference to me when I see somebody like a brand or a 534 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,040 company or whatever it is saying are walking the walk and talking 535 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,280 the talk in the same way, and then you go and see their thing. 536 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,400 OK, yeah, they seem to actually know what they're talking about, 537 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,440 especially not to call out any specific people or anything like 538 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,040 that. A bit on other agencies, 539 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,920 websites that are built like shit as well. 540 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,920 So that's always fun. I mean, don't. 541 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,240 Put our website right now, we've been in a migration, We've been 542 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:50,960 in a redesign for like 2 years at this point. 543 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,240 So we are launching soon. So, so have we. 544 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,240 So have we, yeah. It's the age-old problem of your 545 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:00,760 like, your own internal marketing is always like Skip 546 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:01,960 pushed, right? Yeah. 547 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,680 Yeah, I, I was literally on the Kanda staging site earlier 548 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,080 today. I was like, I think this is 549 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,280 supposed to go live like the end of last year. 550 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,120 Yeah, by the time this goes live, our new website should be 551 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:16,280 live, which is also I. I I will say the same thing. 552 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,960 So yeah, that counts, right? Yeah, yeah, we would not that I 553 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,240 have any influence over the Kanda website, but let's let's 554 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,440 commit like. We're doing this, yeah. 555 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,600 So you mentioned earlier like migrating from framework to 556 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,160 framework, right? Like I'm again, my, my knowledge 557 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,400 isn't, isn't hugely deep here, but I had some experience with 558 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,000 talking to developers who particularly work in like React 559 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,400 or Angular and all this kind of stuff. 560 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,640 Like from your experience, what are the some of the reasons to 561 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,320 go from 1:00 to the other? Are there particular kind of 562 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,760 benefits or is it again case by case kind of basis, is it, is it 563 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,680 dependent on the kind of experience you want for your 564 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,840 users? So 9 times out of 10, it's to 565 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,400 what Tori was talking about earlier. 566 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,360 It's really a, a decision outside of the SEO department. 567 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,160 And typically if I'm seeing a company change the framework or 568 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,680 change the, the language base, 'cause you know, React, Angular, 569 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,560 they're all JavaScript based, but they're obviously they're 570 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,200 their own unique flavor of JavaScript. 571 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,360 That typically happens if we see a change in engineering 572 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,960 leadership and then ultimately a change in engineering talent. 573 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,880 So it it really just goes to kind of what, what focus or 574 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,440 what, what really is the skill set of the engineering team that 575 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,080 you have? I would say for most of them, 576 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,480 and I'm sure I'll have trolls throwing things at me for 577 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,720 website purposes. Let me let let me caveat it with 578 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,480 that. Public website purposes. 579 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,680 They can kind of all do what you need them to do. 580 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,920 So there's not like it isn't like a oh, if you're a 581 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,400 e-commerce, you have to use React, Angular and svelte will 582 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,840 not work. No, that's that's total that 583 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,160 none of that is true. So it it really just comes down 584 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,080 to what is the talent? What's the skill set that you 585 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,040 have on your team? Who's your engineering partner? 586 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,720 If you don't have the dev in house that that's really what it 587 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,600 usually comes down to. I will say about 3 years ago, I 588 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,360 probably saw pretty even spread across view versus Angular 589 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,520 versus React. But I think React is very much 590 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,320 coming out, very much on top. And I think we probably saw 591 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,600 quite a spread because it was new and it was exciting and it 592 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,400 was the shiny thing. And so kind of what Tori was 593 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,600 talking about earlier of, oh, I just want to do this because 594 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,080 this is fun, but I'm totally guilty of that as well. 595 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,280 So calling myself out. We're guilty of that as a whole 596 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:53,200 industry, I think absolutely. But yeah, it it, it usually just 597 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,720 comes down to what does the engineering team want to do? 598 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,000 There can be some like functional differences, but 599 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,080 they're always like very engineering based, like based on 600 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,800 like the architecture. If you want it to be this, you 601 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,840 want it to plug into this, you need it to do these at scale. 602 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,760 That can mean this tool is better than this tool. 603 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,200 So like it's just way above my pay grade. 604 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,160 But my partner's deaf, so and he he works on apps and reacts 605 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,440 stuff. So I'm just like, I don't know 606 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,320 what that means, but it sounds smart. 607 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,520 Cool. OK, again, they just talk to us 608 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:22,840 and they're like, this is what we're doing. 609 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,680 And we say, OK, we'll figure it out, Claire. 610 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,000 And again, it comes back around to another recurring theme of 611 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,920 the podcast, I guess, is having that conversation and having 612 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,280 that communication, right? If you're, if you're going in 613 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,560 completely blind, you're going to be in trouble. 614 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,080 Have that conversation with the external developers or the 615 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,120 internal team or whoever it is you need to speak to. 616 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,920 Speak to the engineer, speak to the developers and understand, 617 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,560 OK, what are you guys working with? 618 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,800 What's your preferred thing? How can we help you make the 619 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,480 most out of this? Again, coming back to that, no 620 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,280 silo stuff like we should all be working together, especially if 621 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,920 it's and this is the the most combative of cases where it's an 622 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,800 external agency developing and an external SEO agency. 623 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,720 It's like, OK, fine, we've got we've got to fight this out now. 624 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,360 And we're all, we're all on the same team. 625 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,400 Like we're we're trying to help the client like the you would 626 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,480 think it would be nice and easy, but yeah, it's not as easy as 627 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:15,960 it. No, it's. 628 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,360 Not always. And like, you know, developers, 629 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,720 like everyone else in the world can be very lazy or sometimes 630 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,200 they just don't know things. And I think we put developers on 631 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,440 this pedestal of just like they know so much more than we do. 632 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,920 And I'm scared to say things like there are junior developers 633 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,480 too. There are senior developers. 634 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,320 Sometimes senior developers tell you things are not possible 635 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,600 because they weren't two years ago and they haven't Googled. 636 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,000 But based on their knowledge, they, I mean, just Seos do that, 637 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,360 right? Like technology changes, you 638 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,640 can't, it's hard to keep up on all the different things, but 639 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,880 like being respectful and kind and and like presenting it like 640 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,680 that. Like do you say like, no, you're 641 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,760 wrong and I'm going to send you the documentation to prove it? 642 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,600 Or do you be like, oh, actually it's great That totally changed 643 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,240 X, you know, pretty recently, like the fresh. 644 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,840 Responding that way. Oh. 645 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,120 OK, You guys need, do you want to guys to have an internal 646 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,080 meeting and I'll just log off for a bit and you just have a 647 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,400 chat. Sam, I think we have some 648 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,200 communications. We've had some reports from some 649 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:14,680 clients that you're just talking. 650 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,080 It's really awkward that we happen to have to do this on the 651 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,160 podcast. But, you know, yeah, well, I'm. 652 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,040 Glad I drama gets clicked so you know it works for me. 653 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:31,080 Yeah, no, yeah, thankfully. So it's funny you bring that up 654 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,320 because we actually work with other vendors for our clients 655 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,280 pretty often. That's actually one of the 656 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:41,400 things we talk about as a a selling prop for us is that we 657 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,400 we can play nicely with others. And I think that that's honestly 658 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,480 when you, I mean, it's the same, it's the same as what makes a 659 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,520 good client relationship, right? When the client actually takes a 660 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,480 step back and it's like I am paying you to be my SEO expert. 661 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,360 So I'm going to let you do that. I think taking the same kind of 662 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,600 stance of you are the dev expert. 663 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,440 So I'm gonna let you take that. Here's my here's what I know and 664 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,680 how can I acknowledge, share. But yeah, we're going to lead 665 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,600 on, you know, stuff. But you know, that's also the 666 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,960 highest compliment when whether it's the internal dev team or 667 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,920 the external dev team, when they want to bring you on on other 668 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,520 projects because you won them over, because you have that 669 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,520 simpatico like it's I love that that's the biggest one. 670 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,239 Yeah, the and the the referrals or the times were brought in by 671 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,360 the head of product or the head of engineering. 672 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:31,960 I love it. Those are. 673 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:33,120 Those are. Those are usually. 674 00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:35,520 Good status. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 675 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,600 That's when you know you're doing things right. 676 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,000 And yeah, you don't have communication problems. 677 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,600 You're actually talking to people nicely. 678 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,320 Exactly. It seems like such an obvious 679 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,040 thing. And again, it feels like not 680 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,480 working in silos and all this kind of stuff seems so obvious. 681 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,199 But it does seem to be a thing. We are hopefully moving in the 682 00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,360 right direction as an industry, It feels like. 683 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,920 It feels like, yeah, exactly. We're maturing a little bit as 684 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,240 an industry, right? Our industry is growing up 685 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,720 because considering you know as here it's 1415 years and we're 686 00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:14,640 like the old guys, you know, we're such a baby industry. 687 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,080 Yeah. So it's, it's crazy to think 688 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,080 that I'm, I have this conversation with my wife who 689 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,040 has been a nurse for years and years and just kind of like, Oh 690 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,320 yeah, this is a completely different, like completely 691 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,040 different concept of the matters of life and death and all this. 692 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,120 Kind of, yeah. I was gonna say, do you just 693 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,560 feel inadequate all the time because you're not hearing 694 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,240 answer? Yeah. 695 00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:38,800 So not only do I feel inadequate, my wife was one of 696 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,880 the ward managers of the first COVID ward in our city. 697 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,160 So I'm just like, well, I, I helped a website launch three 698 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,240 days ago and it went OK. We only had three. 699 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:51,600 Dude make a lot of money. Right. 700 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,240 I helped somebody else make loads of money. 701 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,320 I, I, I interviewed 6 people of this week. 702 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,360 It's crazy like isn't that my contributions are so 703 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,720 significant, but having those conferences, like you said, this 704 00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:09,680 being such a young industry and that I guess the growing 705 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,280 knowledge and the kind of technical acceptance, especially 706 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,640 we're talking about the younger generations as well. 707 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,320 Like people just being aware of this kind of stuff of how the 708 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:19,920 Internet works, how websites work. 709 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,320 I think we've I think there's been some reports the other way 710 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:23,960 around where a lot of like Gen. Z and Gen. 711 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,760 Alpha have no idea how anything works and everything's just like 712 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,760 it's just on a tablet and it it's just fine because they 713 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,360 don't have the concept of the time before I'm I'm old enough 714 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,800 and, and no offense and I know you guys are as well to remember 715 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,040 a time before the Internet right? 716 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,200 Of like, oh, I remember getting my first phone and 1st 717 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,760 smartphone and us having one computer in the upstairs like 718 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,240 backroom of my house. I mean like. 719 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:49,040 And also if someone got on the phone line suddenly. 720 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,040 You would be allowed to boot it up. 721 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,920 It was so annoying. There's a reason the theme song 722 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,920 is dial up modem for this very podcast. 723 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,240 Like because Mark and I are old enough to remember that stuff. 724 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,600 Yeah, I'd say that once for my son. 725 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,240 And he was like, what? Is that why? 726 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:04,400 Why? Oh, it's like nails against a 727 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,520 chalkboard, right? It's horrible but but nostalgic. 728 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,120 Yeah. Yeah, it is. 729 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:17,920 And to kind of get on that kind of broader industry kind of 730 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,640 thing, I think a lot of people, we've been talking a lot about 731 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,400 JavaScript recently. I know there's been a lot of 732 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,480 chatter about the issues potentially with a lot of the 733 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,400 LLMS and AI search engine stuff, So chat, GB, search, perplexity, 734 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,200 all that kind of stuff. Having issues with JavaScript. 735 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,200 And I'm going to kind of try and pull you guys in in two 736 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,400 different directions here of Will they weren't they kind of 737 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,720 thing, not necessarily try and make you guys fight, but Will, 738 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:45,080 we will see. There's definitely that. 739 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,040 Well, yeah, exactly, exactly. I'm picking you guys against me 740 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,880 for sure, but there's definitely AI, don't know a worry for a lot 741 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,040 of people to then think like, Oh, well, if AI is the future of 742 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,080 first, we're seeing this continued disinterest in Google 743 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,120 and distrust in Google and all this kind of stuff, especially 744 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,400 with some of the legal ramifications and not getting 745 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,960 into all of that stuff, but potentially the decline of 746 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,720 Google as we know it and so many of these other competitors 747 00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:12,800 coming up. There's the element of like, how 748 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,600 do I handle JavaScript? Because JavaScript rending is so 749 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,880 much more taxing and expensive than your standard calling that 750 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,840 a lot of what the AI search engine's doing. 751 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:26,200 How do you see this as the the future of search and how 752 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,520 JavaScript ties into that? Because I feel like I'm speaking 753 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,560 to Patrick from site Bulb last year. 754 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,280 Seems like JavaScript is a growing interest in this entry 755 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,200 is exactly what we were saying. More and more people are using 756 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,680 it, more and more people are developing with it and all this 757 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,840 kind of stuff. But if things are shifting in a 758 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,880 way that counteracts that, how are we going to see the kind of 759 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,920 two sides of like, well, JavaScript is the future and 760 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,600 it's cooler. And we were saying earlier like 761 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,320 more modern than HTML and all this kind of stuff and it has 762 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,040 brilliant use cases, but then sometimes it might cause some 763 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,960 discoverability issues. So how you guys feel at the 764 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,240 moment about what that could mean for the future of search 765 00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:02,920 and and its relationship with JavaScript? 766 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,880 Big question, obviously, I mean, AI as a whole I have a lot of 767 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,920 feelings about and most of them are very sad about the state of 768 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,800 the world and, you know, just the the impact of all of this 769 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,640 stuff on the environment. Like do can the earth really 770 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,840 afford another industrial revolution? 771 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,880 Which is what? That's an excellent question, 772 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,880 yeah. And it's also like, oh, cool, so 773 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,920 people won't have jobs, let's build it. 774 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,120 You know, agentic work, work flows and have robots do these 775 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,960 things instead of humans because who needs to eat anyway? 776 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:45,480 So like it, it also feels like unavoidable and, and like, how 777 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,720 does your business stay ahead if you're not willing to do these 778 00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:50,200 things in the same way that the industrial level addition is? 779 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,880 So I feel a little bit like a Luddite right now in that like, 780 00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:57,800 I don't want to do it. I think it's important to do and 781 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,520 we will continue to innovate. But it just makes me really sad 782 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:05,640 is the the very transparent answer in terms of JavaScript, 783 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,120 that's a little bit of a different thing for me, 784 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,160 especially considering Google's like recent announcement, right, 785 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,440 that JavaScript will be required to use stuff and everyone 786 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,280 worried that they have to have a JavaScript website. 787 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,920 To which my biggest response is. Google's do as I say, not as I 788 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,440 do Google. Google wants you to have to 789 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,160 incur the costs of JavaScript in order to access their stuff. 790 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,520 Do they want to have to incur the costs of doing JavaScript to 791 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,080 get access to your information? No, they do not. 792 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:41,280 Are they willing to, Or do they say that they will publicly? 793 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,720 Absolutely. Will they do it when they need 794 00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:45,320 to? Absolutely. 795 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:52,960 But they don't want to. That is costly, so no, they'll 796 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,640 continue to love it. If you have your 1997 vanilla 797 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,520 HTML website. As long as it's good content and 798 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,640 users like it engage with it, they'll be very happy. 799 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:03,480 Is my. Now let's bring back frames. 800 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,520 I'm just kidding. Yeah, right. 801 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,760 So yeah, I will say this is where Tori and I were talking 802 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,320 about this before and we are a little bit, we're not at odds, 803 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:17,920 but we definitely are approaching this a little bit 804 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:23,600 differently. So in short, I am less worried 805 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,720 because of knowing how JavaScript frameworks actually 806 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:30,680 work, what typically the output is. 807 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,840 So one of the things like, yes, LMS or the the crawlers behind 808 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:41,160 them, they don't execute JavaScript, but they do 809 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,600 understand Jason, which a lot of these JavaScript based 810 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,280 frameworks are feeding the content that's going to, that 811 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:55,040 does get rendered through Jason. So that is understood. 812 00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:58,160 And at the end of the day, all they're looking for is content. 813 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:04,920 They, as far as I know right now, they don't care about what 814 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,400 is the experience for the user like a like Google does. 815 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,760 They don't care if you have white text on white text. 816 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,000 That's something that Google cares about. 817 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:17,520 Or, you know, their documentation says it says they 818 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,480 do. Burn. 819 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,840 Honestly after the leaks and everything I'm I'm back to wait. 820 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,440 I trust nothing. I can't test. 821 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,560 Yeah, the bold text, I think just really. 822 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,880 I mean, we got. Under our skin like that, that 823 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:34,840 would not mean Google really that work. 824 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,120 But like, why does that still work? 825 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:44,440 Anyways, sorry then also I do think, yeah, rendering 826 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,560 JavaScript and and the whole rendering queue. 827 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,320 Is that more expensive for Google? 828 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,840 Absolutely. And then the amount of content 829 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,440 that is being generated because of AI tools, it's just really 830 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,200 making that problem much like it, it's making it much more 831 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,120 exponentially expensive. So suddenly we can't take 832 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,800 indexing as a like it's a privilege, not a right. 833 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,720 You know, I think it's, it's caused us to kind of shift our 834 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:09,440 perspective on those things. None of that actually, that I 835 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,000 think is ultimately bad because it's also kind of fun to be 836 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,000 having conversations with clients of like, we need to 837 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,960 write unique things, we need to add unique perspectives. 838 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:21,040 Is that content? Is it? 839 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,600 Is it the? Yeah, yeah. 840 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,520 Also some hard conversations because clients are like, no, we 841 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,240 should totally run for this. And it's like, but should you 842 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,480 really? But it's also been fun because 843 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,480 it's been things like we no longer have to. 844 00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:36,120 Like I had a had a client who creates concrete forms for 845 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,400 construction companies. And so at one point we had a 846 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,120 whole blog series about the history of concrete. 847 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,040 This is vintage, by the way. This is not. 848 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,560 Yeah, this is pretty old. Yeah, this is, this is 4 849 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,360 agencies ago. But like it's really nice that 850 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,720 we don't have to do that kind of like beginner level content 851 00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:55,640 because obviously someone who cares about the history of 852 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,520 concrete is probably not buying concrete forms anyways. 853 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:03,640 I'm I'm squirreling real hard. But all of that to say, is 854 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,760 JavaScript execution more expensive? 855 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,280 Yes. But also what we just talked 856 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,040 about prior, it's the shiny thing that engineers want to 857 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:17,600 build. And so the industry outside of 858 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:23,480 SEO is driving that way. So I think there is a little bit 859 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,240 of, you know, normally for us, we are completely at the mercy 860 00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:31,400 of what Google wants to do. But I think this is a place 861 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,240 where it's a big enough industry and they have other factors that 862 00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:39,760 they care about that has to influence how Google, how their 863 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,480 search team responds. So I would say I'm, I'm not as 864 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,360 concerned. I don't think JavaScript will be 865 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:51,600 going away as a valid solution. Again, also LL still understand 866 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,640 Jason. And at the end of the day, what 867 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,200 we're also seeing is LL NS are running out of content to train 868 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,520 on. So if we are building JavaScript 869 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,960 websites and that's how our brands are presenting their 870 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,160 content, then if an LLM wants to survive and wants to stay up to 871 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,280 date and wants to continue, they will have to conform to what the 872 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,840 industry in mass is doing. So honestly, I think it's just a 873 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,080 matter of time before they actually start worrying about 874 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:20,800 rendering. Yeah, no, I think. 875 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,640 Open AI will. You know people will be 876 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,720 announcing that they can crawl JavaScript too? 877 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,640 Yeah, any day. Literally or or we might see 878 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,520 more partnerships, right. So Open AI, you know, obviously 879 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,200 the partnership with Microsoft, how are we going to see the 880 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,040 index now and then? Like, are we going to see things 881 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,040 mixed together there? That might be the hard new 882 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,600 startup you've never heard of that does the rendering work. 883 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,520 That is like the guts. You know the the those B to B 884 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:51,160 sweet sweet contracts that Open AI pays to have the company do 885 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,520 things for them totally. Yeah, Bytedance, we'll build 886 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,680 that and we'll take over the world a little bit more. 887 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,520 So, you know, it's. Yeah, I, I think there's a 888 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:05,240 larger enough subset of, of different industries influencing 889 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:11,120 these decisions that if the decision is made by open AI, by 890 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:16,200 perplexity, by Anthropic to kind of ignore that. 891 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,080 I think they'll end up missing out on a lot of the content that 892 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,040 they want 'cause even like some of these relationships between 893 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,320 Open AI and some of the news media organizations, some of 894 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:29,560 those are JavaScript based websites. 895 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,480 A lot of them are, and we know because we're working on them. 896 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,560 So I think it's just, yeah, it's just my origin. 897 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,480 Yeah, I'm, I'm Tory, you'd make better earlier. 898 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,240 So like the second industrial revolution, right? 899 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:47,840 In a in an ecological way, not good in a technological way. 900 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,720 Very interesting. And then like you said, there's 901 00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:54,280 there's going to be that nature of we joked earlier about sites 902 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,160 from 25 years ago looking so much different. 903 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:57,960 They do. Now we're going to have that 904 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:02,320 same kind of thing where these search answer engines, search 905 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,400 engines, whatever they end up being called. 906 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,040 And when once that name solidifies, somewhere is going 907 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,040 to be an evolution that we're going to see. 908 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,280 And like you said, it's absolutely exponential at this 909 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,480 point when it comes to the technological singularity or the 910 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,320 the future from the Terminator or the Matrix or whatever we're 911 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,920 looking forward to in the next 10 to 15 years. 912 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,920 But I know, right? I know, right. 913 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:28,480 But I think you're totally right. 914 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,080 We're going to get towards that. It's so much bigger than we live 915 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:33,960 in our little SEO bubble. And we think like, yeah, you 916 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,160 know, Google is the be all and end all. 917 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,840 And again, I think we're all learning, if we haven't already 918 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,600 learned that when people, a lot of people are learning that 919 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,880 recently. And SEO and search engines 920 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,760 aren't the be all and end all of the Internet either. 921 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:47,440 There is plenty of other stuff out there. 922 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,280 You guys are exactly right. Like, OK, if you don't crawl 923 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,800 JavaScript, you don't render JavaScript properly, then you're 924 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,200 going to run into issues because that's where development is 925 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,160 moving towards whether you like it or not. 926 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,320 And it's that keep up or get left behind kind of thing, 927 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,400 right? And as again, as kind of techie 928 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,520 and capitalist as that sounds, that is the nature of business 929 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,880 and technology and how this stuff moves. 930 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaking about like, you know, Musk and Altman and all these 931 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,040 guys that are pushing these things forward, they're going to 932 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,920 want to get the information exactly as you guys are saying. 933 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,160 They've got contracts with like The Associated Press and all 934 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,080 this kind of other stuff and big publications to train their 935 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,040 models and bring in that stuff into their search engine 936 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:29,680 results. Then that's going to be a thing 937 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,680 they're going to have to do. And whether that means new 938 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,280 premium models of Arnaut Hellman's, I was speaking to you 939 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,360 that I had a brilliant idea in. It's a terrible, horrible idea. 940 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,800 And I kind of hate it, but it kind of makes a lot of sense for 941 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,160 the monetization of search engines going forward. 942 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,440 And I was like, oh, I hate, I hate that sentence. 943 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,360 But I'm intrigued because Arnaut's very clever. 944 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,160 And I was like, OK, what's your, what's your theory? 945 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,960 And it's like, I think it'll be like Netflix where every four or 946 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,640 five searches you get an ad. And I was like, oh, I hate that. 947 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,120 But I can totally see. That. 948 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,840 Maybe, yeah, instead of just the Google ads at the table like a 949 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:07,200 set, right? Yeah. 950 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,960 Reversion of the We all cut. The cable right now, we only 951 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,840 have HBO Max, we have Netflix, we have Disney Plus, we have 952 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,560 Peacock. Yeah, we all cut the cable. 953 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,760 We've solved that problem. Streaming service, I think it's 954 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,160 going to be this. I think that it's it's a 955 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,360 terrifying but kind of relevant thing that we might be heading 956 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,760 in that direction for search as well. 957 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,760 And maybe that's the way that monetization site. 958 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,440 I know, I'm sorry. Tory to maybe. 959 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,800 He's got again. I said at the beginning, oh, 960 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:35,920 hype, you guys off. I'll make you feel. 961 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,160 And then by the end of it, we're just like, oh God, we're so 962 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:39,080 screwed, the world. Is there? 963 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,440 Yeah. I think the part that makes me 964 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,040 sad is like knowing that, you know, whatever the premium is, 965 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:45,920 right? So like if you have Hulu, you 966 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,200 can pay the premium so that you have no ads versus some ads. 967 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,400 It's like, obviously that won't be an option. 968 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,600 Maybe obviously we'd probably all go for the premium because 969 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,080 we're in a place, the luxury that we can do that. 970 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,480 But then also for those who aren't in that luxury and can't 971 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,760 do that, then how are we now undemocratizing the information 972 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,560 to be available? We're getting oh, I hate it. 973 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,880 But that's get existential. To bring it all down with 974 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,640 terrible existential tread. Welcome to search with candor, 975 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,000 folks. That's what we're here to do. 976 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,280 OK, where we go, I wanted to say you're like, I love that it's 977 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,080 indoor like candor is cut off, but So what I can see is indoor 978 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:29,360 on your. Just indoor of. 979 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,240 Your head and it's. That's very strong. 980 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,560 I've got, I know I showed you guys earlier, but I don't have 981 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,800 the list because I've got Star Wars and Lego and stuff over my 982 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,200 shoulder here as well. I got to the wider shot. 983 00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:47,040 There we go some Star Wars and Lego stuff and even like a 984 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,040 search board game and stuff here as well. 985 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,520 Various nerdy things going on. And I think we're, we're kind of 986 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,280 known as a bit of a nerdy agency at this point. 987 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,120 We literally have like rugs that are Star Wars rugs in our 988 00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,320 office. It's a bit we've got, we've got 989 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,840 a reputation. So I, I guess I will shift the, 990 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,120 the, the hope, bring some hope back and shift the, the 991 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:14,360 spotlight back on you guys to. We're bringing the hope now. 992 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,000 Oh no. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm the 993 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,920 Dow British guy. You, you guys have got to bring 994 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,080 the the hope and the smile. Bring that American energy. 995 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,280 That, that's how, yeah, you, you bring the American Pope and 996 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,360 smile and I bring the like, oh, yeah. 997 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,440 Well, I'm pretty ancient. Well, everything's, everything's 998 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:29,920 dead. And we've lived through a lot of 999 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,000 terrible. We've done a lot of terrible 1000 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:31,880 things. Let's not talk about that. 1001 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,680 Oh yeah, welcome to being. Welcome to being. 1002 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,680 Yeah, I think. We've done a lot of terrible 1003 00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,400 things. We're just behind. 1004 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:38,680 But. We're. 1005 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,440 On the same path. Yeah, you've got a few 100 years 1006 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:42,640 to catch up on that, that's for sure. 1007 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,880 Yeah, But anyway, I. Don't know we're working on it. 1008 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:49,680 That's true. Like we said, exponential growth 1009 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:50,520 and all that. Exactly. 1010 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:56,160 But in, in the hopeful side of things, do you think that 1011 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,640 learning JavaScript, if, if say the listens of you out there? 1012 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,560 I thinking about learning JavaScript. 1013 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,520 I think about getting into the more technical side of things 1014 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,600 and getting a better understanding of what they might 1015 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,600 encounter when it comes to site migrations and and experiencing 1016 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,280 new sites and stuff like that. Do you think now is the right 1017 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,600 time to get into it? I know you guys did an amazing 1018 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,760 training course with the guys over at Salt bubble women in 1019 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,160 tech as well. There's, there's brilliant 1020 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:20,760 things out there to learn that kind of stuff. 1021 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:25,480 Do you see it as a positive move for developers and Seos and 1022 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,840 stuff to Start learning JavaScript now before like you 1023 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,160 said, we get swept up and maybe the next thing comes along? 1024 00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,200 Yeah, I mean, it's always better to learn something before you 1025 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,160 have to, because once you have to, you have to do it quickly 1026 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:39,600 and it's just so much more stressful. 1027 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,840 So I would definitely encourage you to explore now. 1028 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,080 I think it is legitimately fun. We worked really hard in our 1029 00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,600 course with, with the discipled team and the women in tech SEO 1030 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,720 team to make it really accessible and understand like 1031 00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:56,040 the why because it's not just the technical implementation. 1032 00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,320 So can we break it down? Can we make those common 1033 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,880 problems as understandable as possible? 1034 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,240 Because at the end of the day, it's, it's a business decision, 1035 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,640 right? Like do, does this content need 1036 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,160 to be found in this, like in this place on this page? 1037 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:14,320 Does it matter or does it not? And so I think if you can ground 1038 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,400 it in that context, there's a lot more strategy involved than 1039 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,680 people give it credit for. They think it's all technical 1040 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,480 all the time. I think there's a lot more juicy 1041 00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:29,600 SEO fun Gray things that are going to be super, you know, and 1042 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,880 once you're on the other side of like the scary, like there is 1043 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:37,000 joy to be had in exploring that all these weird, fun, ugly 1044 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:38,120 problems. So. 1045 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:44,000 And I would want to stress like it, it is definitely learning 1046 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:49,600 JavaScript SEOI think a a a really common question we get is 1047 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,920 do you need to learn how to code to be a technical Seoi just want 1048 00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:55,080 to shout from the rooftops. Nope. 1049 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,760 Now if you want to learn how to code, more power to you. 1050 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:00,360 I love coding. It's super fun. 1051 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:02,160 It would make you an excellent SEO. 1052 00:54:02,240 --> 00:54:05,320 Very likely it's. It's a very useful skill anyway, 1053 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:08,400 but it's certainly not a requirement. 1054 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,400 So you know the, the, the gate keeping that kind of happens 1055 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,360 with that. I just want to encourage people, 1056 00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:18,400 if you can absolutely learn it and never learn to code at all 1057 00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,560 and you'll be, you can be very successful just keeping those 1058 00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,440 principles that that Tori was talking about of like what is 1059 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,360 the business application? What is the context? 1060 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,440 What are our actual goals and and is this juice worth the 1061 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:33,080 squeeze? If development tells me it's 1062 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,200 going to take 3 sprints to do, do I want to use all my Sprint 1063 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,400 points over the next three sprints to do it? 1064 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,840 Yeah. That's those are the kinds of 1065 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,800 judgment calls you have to make. Yeah, Sam can code. 1066 00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,440 She is an excellent SEOI cannot code. 1067 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,480 I still think I'm kind of an excellent SEOI mean, I'm biased, 1068 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,920 but like. I think you're pretty pretty all 1069 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:53,680 right. You're pretty good. 1070 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,160 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 1071 00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:01,880 Well, thank you so much for joining me. 1072 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:03,600 Like I said, it's been a long time in the making. 1073 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:05,600 It's been an honour to finally actually sit down and have a 1074 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,720 conversation with you guys and go in all these terrifying 1075 00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:11,880 existential directions that we went in, but but hopefully 1076 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,120 ending on a few laughs and smiles along the way as well. 1077 00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:18,120 I've I've mentioned the training course, I mentioned Grey dot. 1078 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:19,960 I know I'll put links for everything in the show notes. 1079 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,320 But if people want to follow you and what you guys are doing, 1080 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,200 Tori, how can people follow you and all the amazing stuff you're 1081 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,440 doing and SEO with Grey dot and yourself? 1082 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,200 Yep, you can look up grey.co, you can look up me, you can 1083 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:31,400 Google me. You'll find me. 1084 00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:33,320 I'm the only Hey, there you go. We target. 1085 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:38,640 The ultimate flex right now and Sam, how about you so. 1086 00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,600 Unfortunately if you Google me, there's actually a more famous 1087 00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:47,920 photographer so it's harder to find me and he's a man so that 1088 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,000 happens. But you can follow us on 1089 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:56,080 LinkedIn on Blue Sky. So we have left the other or at 1090 00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:00,280 least I have, we have completely left the other channel, but you 1091 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,080 can see us on there. We do have a YouTube channel. 1092 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,560 We don't post nearly as much, but certainly things going on 1093 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:10,400 there. And then I do this on every 1094 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,120 appearance. If you do identify as female and 1095 00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:18,000 you have not joined women in tech SEO, please do. 1096 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,960 Even if you are not a tech SEO, if you're in content, if you're 1097 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,480 in UX, if you're in paid, it is a community for you. 1098 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:27,280 It is 100% free. It has changed my life for the 1099 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:31,200 better. And yes, absolutely join if you 1100 00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,960 don't identify as female. There's a number of wonderful 1101 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:37,680 communities. The SEO community, if I know a 1102 00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:42,640 Lerner, is a great space. Yes, just just get in with your 1103 00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:44,560 community. Find people who were there with 1104 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:46,680 you on the journey. It's Better Together. 1105 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,440 It is. 100%, absolutely. I'll put links for everything, 1106 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,240 both the communities, your guys links, all the social stuff, no 1107 00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:56,640 X links, screw X all, all the, all the blue sky, all the links 1108 00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,600 in all that kind of stuff. So in the video description down 1109 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,240 below, please do click it. Please do follow these guys and 1110 00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:03,480 check out all the amazing work you're doing. 1111 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,080 Thank you again for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure 1112 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,440 and hopefully we'll get a chance to do it again sometime in the 1113 00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:10,480 future. Yes, thank you so much. 1114 00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,000 This is fun. Yeah, sketching. 1115 00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:19,520 Talk to you again soon. And that wraps up this week's 1116 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,240 episode of Search with Canada. I hope you enjoyed my 1117 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:27,520 conversation with Sam and Tori. I was, as I said, very excited 1118 00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,320 to actually finally get to sit down and and talk with them and 1119 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,440 discuss all the cool technical stuff about different JavaScript 1120 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,480 platforms and migrations and all that interesting things. 1121 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,120 And yeah, hopefully we'll have them back on again in the 1122 00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:41,400 future. I know we kind of teased a 1123 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,400 couple of future episodes, so I'd love to have Sam and Torrey 1124 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:48,320 back on in the future as well. It was a bit new for me editing 1125 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,160 a three person episode like this in this format. 1126 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:55,880 So hopefully you enjoyed the new kind of slimmer little video 1127 00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,760 boxes for that conversation. Like I said, I've got some 1128 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,080 amazing guests coming up in the next weeks as well. 1129 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,360 Let me just check on my schedule here live on the show. 1130 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,320 Who have I got coming up? I have the likes of Erica 1131 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,520 Varanguli who will be joining me talking about kind of 1132 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,840 everything. Erica's and I have known each 1133 00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:18,000 other for a while now and we cover all sorts of crazy SEO 1134 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,520 theories, LLM created content and all kinds of stuff. 1135 00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,840 I'll be joined, of course, by Mark Williams Cook every single 1136 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:26,960 month. That will be by the end of 1137 00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,000 March, essentially, Mark, and I'll be back in the Candace 1138 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,120 studio, the little one just over there, and we'll be talking all 1139 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,320 about the latest SEO news, any topics, any social posts we've 1140 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,560 seen that we think need discussing. 1141 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,360 I am joined by Grace Frolic and we'll be talking about user 1142 00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,120 journeys, how to track them, how to map them, how to use them 1143 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,040 properly, how to actually get customer data and use it 1144 00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,240 properly to better understand your audiences and your users. 1145 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,880 I'm going to be joined by Tom Winter talking all about how to 1146 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:59,400 use AI agents in your workflow to speed up a lot of SEO 1147 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,560 processes. I'm going to be joined a return 1148 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:07,000 of to the Show by Matt Coley. Finally coming back on the show, 1149 00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,240 Matt and I have stayed in touch since his brilliant podcast 1150 00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:14,120 about basically his journey from working in agency and going to 1151 00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,520 become a freelancer. Now he's a freelancer creating 1152 00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,720 his own agency. And basically, I'm going to 1153 00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,600 catch up with Matt of what he's been up to over the last couple 1154 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,320 of years since we last spoke and what's been going on and get an 1155 00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:32,440 idea of his journey and what it's like going from a solo SEO 1156 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,520 freelancer to building your own small agency. 1157 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:39,840 And the big tease that I think was revealed in a newsletter a 1158 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,760 little while ago, the one and only Annie Mayhodge will be back 1159 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:48,320 here in studio, on camera, in person, joining me. 1160 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,960 The person behind Girl Power Marketing, the powerhouse of 1161 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,120 social media that is Annie Mayhodge, will be joining me 1162 00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,120 once again, I think for the first time in like 2 1/2 years 1163 00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,960 or something like that. I was amazed at how long it's 1164 01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,240 been since Annie Mae and I sat in this very room and recorded. 1165 01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,480 But we'll be in the nice new studio with the lovely chairs 1166 01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,400 and the nice lighting and stuff. So yeah, stay tuned for that. 1167 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,960 And that takes us up all the way to like May, I think, plus all 1168 01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,480 the live podcast stuff, plus all the Brighton content. 1169 01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,720 We've got some amazing stuff coming up over the next few 1170 01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,160 months. So please do stay tuned for all 1171 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,960 of that. And a couple of extra cool 1172 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,920 little things as well. I mentioned our conference we're 1173 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,040 going to be running at the end maybe in September. 1174 01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,840 Yeah, pencil that in. Mark and I will hopefully, 1175 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,600 hopefully, hopefully be able to announce venues and dates and 1176 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:41,720 all that kind of stuff coming up very soon. 1177 01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:45,760 So stay tuned for Search Norwich XL news as well. 1178 01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,800 If you stayed right until the end, through all my rambling and 1179 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,960 stuff towards the end of the episode, thank you so much. 1180 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:53,600 I hugely appreciate your support. 1181 01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,200 Please do comment and let me know if you have any ideas of 1182 01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,040 any guests you'd like to see on the show, anything like that. 1183 01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,880 Please do let me know in the comments down below or hit us up 1184 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,760 on social media, whichever is your preferred way of contacting 1185 01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:08,160 us. Just let me know. 1186 01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,960 I love to have conversations with you guys, discover new 1187 01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,200 people, and highlight the best and brightest in SEO on this 1188 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,800 podcast. With all of that out of the way, 1189 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,880 enough rambling for me. Thank you so much for watching. 1190 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,480 Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next week. 1191 01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:23,520 Have a lovely week.