1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:01,200 Hey there. It's Melissa. 2 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,700 Brunetti and welcome to the mind your own Karma podcast. 3 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:17,600 Either Karma crew. Welcome to another episode of 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,400 mind your own Karma. I have a special guest today. 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,700 Terrence Dawkins, he is a counselor and we talked about 6 00:00:25,700 --> 00:00:30,000 attachment theories, adoptive parents, and what they can do to 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,700 help their child. Adjust, we talk about the fog. 8 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:38,600 We talk about reunions, all kinds of things that were 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,900 covering in today's episode, but let me tell you a little bit 10 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:46,200 about Tara, Points Terrence Dawkins is a South Carolina 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,400 licensed independent social worker clinical practice. 12 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,600 He is also licensed as a licensed clinical. 13 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,300 Social worker in North Carolina, Terrence received his 14 00:00:56,300 --> 00:00:59,100 undergraduate and master's degree in social work from 15 00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:02,700 Winthrop University. He is also the owner of his own 16 00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:05,900 private practice, entitled, missing pieces, Counseling 17 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:09,200 Services, which is located in the community where he grew up. 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,200 He currently works in the Counseling Center at University 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,700 as well Terrance has completed training and dialectical 20 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:20,500 behavioral therapy cognitive behavioral therapy eye movement, 21 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:25,000 desensitization and reprocessing and internal family systems 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,600 therapy. He likes to use an Eclectic 23 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,300 approach when providing services to his clients through his own 24 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:34,300 childhood experiences. And the experiences from his 25 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:37,400 clients, he has discovered the importance of the different 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,600 beliefs and lessons that are learned through family 27 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,800 interactions and daily interactions. 28 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:45,800 This is led to his interest in trans generational trauma and 29 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,400 the impact it has made throughout many generations. 30 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,400 Terrence seeks to utilize his skills to destigmatize mental 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,000 health, especially in the African-American Community. 32 00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:58,700 He believes mental health is for everyone and has a hope to 33 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:02,400 reduce the self-imposed barriers, which prevents clients 34 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,800 from utilizing Mental Health Services. 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,400 Here is my interview with Terrence Dawkins Alright, we are 36 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,600 welcoming Terrence Dawkins to the show today. 37 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,500 Hi Terrance. Hey, how are you? 38 00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:17,800 I am great. I'm going to have you start by 39 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,300 telling us a little bit about yourself. 40 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,400 Okay. So my name is Terrence Dawkins. 41 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,900 I'm a licensed clinical social worker. 42 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,700 I'm from Spartanburg South Carolina where I do work at a 43 00:02:29,708 --> 00:02:33,400 local University here, but I also have my own private 44 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,500 practice and title of missing pieces, Housing Services. 45 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:41,100 And I went to school at Winthrop Varsity, which is located in 46 00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:44,900 Rock, Hill, South Carolina, and their undergrad and master's 47 00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:47,000 degree in social work and decided. 48 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,400 I wanted to move back home and got licensed clinical social 49 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,100 worker. So I can provide Therapy 50 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:56,400 Services and do different workshops as well as public 51 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,100 speaking engagements on brand new topics. 52 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,800 Awesome. So, let's just jump right in. 53 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,600 We had talked an email back and forth a little bit about 54 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,900 attachment Theory. Can you define that for us? 55 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:14,500 Yes, so Attachment theory was developed by John Bowlby and 56 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:18,400 Mary Ainsworth. And ultimately wasn't that is 57 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,400 saying is our bonds that we develop early on in childhood 58 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,900 impacts how we interact with the world and interact with other 59 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:32,800 people and they describe you attachment Styles or attachment 60 00:03:32,900 --> 00:03:35,300 categories. One of those things secure 61 00:03:35,300 --> 00:03:39,100 attachment and secure attachment is where we feel like you have 62 00:03:39,100 --> 00:03:42,400 all. Our needs and all our wants met 63 00:03:42,900 --> 00:03:48,600 and that way we can anticipate others to give us what we need 64 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,000 to give us what we want. So we can depend on carriers 65 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,500 working in on other people in the world. 66 00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:58,900 So we have a secure attachment. Another attachment is anxious 67 00:03:58,900 --> 00:04:01,700 attachment and this one's a little bit different because but 68 00:04:01,700 --> 00:04:06,700 this one is more of like a developed from inconsistent 69 00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:11,900 parenting patterns. And it's, I guess you can say 70 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:14,200 sometimes the parents supporter of sometimes they're 71 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,700 unresponsive and that could be emotionally specifically and 72 00:04:18,700 --> 00:04:22,100 what happens with anxious and passionate is the child. 73 00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:24,300 Doesn't know what they're going to get. 74 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:28,600 So they become anxious around. Do I am going to have what I 75 00:04:28,608 --> 00:04:31,700 need met. Our grandparents from respond 76 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,300 and that could lead to low self-esteem of the self, but 77 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:39,200 they still have high hopes for others to give them what they 78 00:04:39,300 --> 00:04:44,900 Why need another one would be voided attachment and this one 79 00:04:44,900 --> 00:04:49,200 is more of people that are not emotionally there or emotionally 80 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:54,200 available. And so the child, or the adult 81 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:59,600 later can be highly independent and they don't necessarily want 82 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,900 or need relationships because they feel like they're not going 83 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:05,700 to get what they want. Then I'm going to get what they 84 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:08,300 need. So they really avoid those type 85 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:11,600 of Actions and avoid those different types of bonds. 86 00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:15,300 And the last one would be disorganized where the child is 87 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:19,700 inconsistent when unpredictable. So it's similar to anxious 88 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:23,600 attachment, and also assembly to avoided, but with the 89 00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:28,900 disorganized, they seek and they want this relationship, they 90 00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:32,200 want those Bond, but they're so confused. 91 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,800 Are so fearful of what they might get that. 92 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,500 They're so they're disorganized. And this one has a negative view 93 00:05:38,500 --> 00:05:40,700 of their self. You need a real others. 94 00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:45,600 Yeah, I see a lot of adoptees I think with disorganized and 95 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,600 because I think it's like what they want the most. 96 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,300 They fear the most as well. Yeah. 97 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,400 And you know attachment Theory can go a lot deeper than my 98 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,700 brief explanation that is just a brief overview of these 99 00:05:58,700 --> 00:06:03,300 attachments. So can you explain kind of what 100 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:08,200 happens when that mother-child bond is broken at Birth or soon 101 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:09,900 after birth? Yes. 102 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:16,600 So, There is this day, I studied intergenerational trauma that 103 00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:18,900 ties directly to attachment Theory. 104 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:21,900 I do believe, but intergenerational trauma is 105 00:06:21,900 --> 00:06:24,500 ultimately the traumas that are passed along to us. 106 00:06:24,500 --> 00:06:28,200 From our caregivers are not parents and interactions, we 107 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,400 have with them and part of that, is what they call epigenetics. 108 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:33,700 Have you ever heard of that before? 109 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:35,700 Yeah, but I don't know much about it. 110 00:06:36,100 --> 00:06:40,900 So, epigenetics is the expression of genes. 111 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:43,700 Intimately. So when a mother is carrying a 112 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:47,900 child, the experiences that she might having whether it's a 113 00:06:47,900 --> 00:06:51,100 stressful environment or anything like that, that can 114 00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:55,700 directly impacts to a child. So at Birth, when that child is 115 00:06:55,700 --> 00:06:59,500 born able to respond to different things in the world, 116 00:06:59,900 --> 00:07:03,000 as it were, as if they were still in the, the fetus in the 117 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,000 womb. So it really just depends on how 118 00:07:06,100 --> 00:07:10,900 the environment that was in and out, actually child, but My 119 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:13,100 mother is separated from a child. 120 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:17,000 The biggest in this is very dependent on the age, I think. 121 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:22,800 So when a mother separated that bond is broken so the child can 122 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,500 then develop one of these of different attachment Styles 123 00:07:25,700 --> 00:07:29,800 aside from secure because that attachment with a mother is 124 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,100 broken. So they could feel anxious 125 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:34,200 about. Well, I'm going with the 126 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,600 stranger. I don't know of a stranger's 127 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,900 going to give you a avoided as far as I don't know. 128 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,400 I'm going to avoid different interactions or different 129 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,100 attachments because I don't know what I'm going to get or 130 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:51,700 disorganize has. I'm confused as a whole as far 131 00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:55,100 as it depending on what exactly happened to Chocolate be 132 00:07:55,100 --> 00:07:58,800 separated. So there was my and abuse that 133 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,300 was in the home. That child is fearful of the 134 00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:03,800 person. They're supposed to be giving 135 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,700 them the care they need. So I don't know whether they're 136 00:08:06,700 --> 00:08:09,300 going to do something harm me. I don't know whether they were 137 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:11,100 do something. You know what I mean? 138 00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:15,000 So that's what I confusion comes into play and that's how it's 139 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,900 different from the other attachment Styles. 140 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:20,800 So when the mother is separated at Birth or separate illiterate 141 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,100 women childhood back early on attachment is broken. 142 00:08:24,100 --> 00:08:30,200 So do you believe as we talked a lot about how the outside world 143 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:31,700 outside of the adoption Community? 144 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:34,600 Talk about well, you don't remember it. 145 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,200 So how, you know, how does that affect you later in life and 146 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,000 it's something that you cognitively don't. 147 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,900 Ember and we talked about, you know, how it's stored in 148 00:08:43,900 --> 00:08:46,800 ourselves. Yes, yes, I think that's exactly 149 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,500 what I was about to bring. So, what's trauma is really 150 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,100 stored in the body, really? Think about because that energy 151 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:57,200 has to go somewhere. So just because I don't remember 152 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,800 specific event happening whether I'm a doctor or not doesn't mean 153 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,200 it's not going to impact me. But ultimately what's going to 154 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,100 happen is your body is going to respond as if it's in that 155 00:09:07,100 --> 00:09:10,700 situation. So if I don't remember, No, the 156 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:13,900 separation. Remember when I was taken from a 157 00:09:13,900 --> 00:09:17,800 family, but in a way, when I get older, I'm placed placed in a 158 00:09:17,808 --> 00:09:22,800 situation where someone that I truly care about leads or I lose 159 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,500 that person. My bicycle respond the same way 160 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:31,100 as if I was being taken or same way as if I was being removed 161 00:09:31,100 --> 00:09:33,100 from the home this correspondingly because it's 162 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:35,300 something that your body is familiar to. 163 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,000 So what are some ways that an infant might be able to act out, 164 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,700 because We're nonverbal and we can't run away. 165 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:46,100 And so what are some things that you might see in an infant that 166 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:48,600 has attachment disorder. Okay. 167 00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:53,600 So there was this study Done by Mary Ainsworth called The 168 00:09:53,600 --> 00:10:00,300 Strange situation and was that she ultimately put mother child 169 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:03,100 and with stranger in a room and there were different stages to 170 00:10:03,100 --> 00:10:07,600 this experiment and in some of those States was mother was in 171 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,200 their child is engaging playing. Then they brought Stranger hand 172 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,700 with the mother and a child. Then the mother left, the left 173 00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:17,700 the child with the Stranger Than The Mother reunified. 174 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:22,600 It came back and what they found was, if a child had a secure 175 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,200 attachment, when Mom left the child to be stressed out very 176 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,600 distressed because the person that I look for, to get my wants 177 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,300 and needs met his gone. And then, when they were with 178 00:10:35,300 --> 00:10:37,600 the stranger, there was real avoided and along with the 179 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,000 stranger. But what they saw was, my mother 180 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,900 came I'm back. The child was interacting with 181 00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:46,000 both the stranger and the mother because the person, they felt 182 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,500 secure with it and failsafe those back in the room. 183 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:52,100 So I know that that person is not going to allow anything to 184 00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:54,900 harm me or hurt me. So I'm going to interact with 185 00:10:54,900 --> 00:10:57,000 this stranger. So there was a positively 186 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,100 computation are in. Mom is that safe base. 187 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,100 So with anxious attachment, again, mom left, it was still 188 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:08,200 that I'm real distressed. I'm not anxious. 189 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,100 I want her to come back. And so, do you see this sense of 190 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:15,600 distress response? But then when Mom comes back, 191 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,800 the child wasn't necessarily go straight. 192 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:24,000 To her is more of a avoided kind of fear and resistant to go back 193 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,900 to it because you left me. Hmm, the person that I felt safe 194 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:31,200 with, especially when I was here with the stranger, the stranger. 195 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,600 I really, I was fearful of a stranger when you left and you 196 00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:38,700 and when you came back, I don't know, what do you want to leave 197 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:40,800 or not. So, I get anxious with that, and 198 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,600 I kind of pushed him away and you'll see that that child will 199 00:11:43,608 --> 00:11:46,700 be positively more. But then with a avoidant 200 00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:50,200 attachment, when Mom leaves surprisingly, guess what? 201 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:55,000 There was no distress at all. Well, so you can leave and I'm 202 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,100 still going to be okay because I can't rely on. 203 00:11:57,100 --> 00:12:01,400 We want to realize myself you. So I Skyped with since I'm 204 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,500 relying myself, if I'm there with the stranger I'm gonna go 205 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:06,600 play with that stranger as if that was my kid. 206 00:12:06,700 --> 00:12:10,200 They deliver because I regulate myself, you don't regulate me 207 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,800 and someone mom returns that child will still show a little 208 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,900 interest to mom when she returns because again, I don't know what 209 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:21,400 you going to do. So I don't really trust you that 210 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,100 much. So mother and the stranger, they 211 00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:28,200 kind of retreat was in a way, you can see some of those things 212 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:33,300 in children, whether they cry a lot, the killer believes, how 213 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:36,600 they interact with the caregiver because there was to come back. 214 00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:39,700 I'm so different things like that because the behaviors that 215 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:43,100 we see in the children as well, how they communicate and that's 216 00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:47,200 crying that's reaching for the parent, as, you know, pushing 217 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,000 them away turning their back to them. 218 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,300 So, it's all about paying teachers to go small. 219 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:53,900 Behaviors to see exactly how they respond. 220 00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:57,000 Yeah. So, what are some ways that an 221 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,800 adoptive parent can navigate that when they notice those 222 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,300 things in their child? Yeah, so I think along with 223 00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:10,200 intergenerational trauma Um so it is to the aspect of I'm a 224 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,300 adoptive parent. I need to be aware of what I'm 225 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:16,600 bringing into this new relationship with this adoptee. 226 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,000 So that means those traumas that I probably experienced or the 227 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,800 teaching and beliefs that I've experienced, I need to be aware 228 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,400 that first to understand, how I'm going to react to a child if 229 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,700 they were to display some of these behaviors. 230 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:34,700 I think that's one important date because just because you 231 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,200 bring a new child in does it mean They want to be perfect. 232 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,000 There might have some painters debate this way. 233 00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:44,700 And how are you reacting to those display Behavior? 234 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:48,400 So I think Versa, what about the pair we need to do is be aware 235 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,400 of their own stuff that they're bringing into it, but then also 236 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,500 to have patience with this new member of the family because 237 00:13:56,700 --> 00:14:00,000 they have things that are being brought into this relationship 238 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,400 as well. Again, that can be through 239 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,400 genetics that can do through their experiences. 240 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:07,300 So being patient with them in China, to learn how to work 241 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:09,800 together. But the key thing is to try to 242 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,400 get that secure attachment so that they know the hate. 243 00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:16,700 I know that you probably had some things that happen to you 244 00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:19,500 before. But I'm here, I'm going to 245 00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:21,500 protect you. I'm going to give you what you 246 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:25,600 want and so, being more aware of what they're bringing in, also 247 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,000 being patient with what that child's experience to try to 248 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,800 help transition that attach. Yeah, I'm kind of hoping the 249 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,600 narrative is changed since I was adopted in the late 60s because 250 00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:39,800 Is Ben, it was kind of, you know, integrate the child as 251 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,800 much as possible and make it as normal as possible which meant 252 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,800 don't talk about adoption at all. 253 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,600 Like, you know, don't or not. You're part of our family now 254 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,400 and how lucky you are and we chose you and, you know, the 255 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:55,000 whole narrative. When so you get that Vibe like I 256 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,100 can't talk about it. I can't talk about my feelings 257 00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:00,600 about it. I feel abnormal that I'm having 258 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,400 these feelings because they're telling me I shouldn't have 259 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,000 these feelings. Yeah, so it's a huge thing. 260 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,400 I'm hoping it's changing right now. 261 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,200 I Don't know if you know anything about if that's 262 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,100 changing or not, like, in the production but just hearing you 263 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:17,500 speak about that part of what happens when you're trying to 264 00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:18,900 develop these different attachments. 265 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:22,100 As being very remote, be emotionally available to the 266 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:26,200 child and that could be. If I had a child that wanted to 267 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,000 talk about the biological parents and I avoided it, that's 268 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,300 not really being emotionally available there showing that, 269 00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:36,100 well, this is something that we just can't talk about. 270 00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:39,900 So, the The child's going to have feelings about that and 271 00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:42,800 that could then lead them to that pinches attachment. 272 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,600 That could lead them to that avoidant attachment because 273 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,100 guess what? I my feelings the seem valid. 274 00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:51,400 So I don't know what I'm going to get from you. 275 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,500 So I hope it is changed as well because that could lead to some 276 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:58,500 of these different attachment disorders and things like that. 277 00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:02,000 I know for me when you were talking about, I guess it would 278 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,600 be the avoidance where it's I can take care of myself. 279 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,200 I'm very A very much that way. Like, I don't want to ask for 280 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,700 help. I can do everything on my own 281 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,800 you know it takes a lot for me to ask for help and be that 282 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,000 vulnerable to see if someone's going to follow through. 283 00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:22,500 It's really difficult for me and even if they do, follow through, 284 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:26,500 you still having your mind that this won't last. 285 00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:30,600 Yeah, this isn't forever. This is only temporary. 286 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,300 So yes this happened this time but I'll make some Pub never 287 00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:36,000 happen. So that doesn't change the way 288 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,100 you still here. First, you know, he followed 289 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,000 through that once. Yeah. 290 00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:45,100 And that's a clear indication of hey, I'm avoiding this type of 291 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,400 interaction with you our relationship. 292 00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:51,600 Yeah. The other thing is, a lot of us 293 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:57,300 went to foster care in between, I was in foster care for two and 294 00:16:57,300 --> 00:17:00,500 a half months part of that was because my birth mother hadn't 295 00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:03,800 didn't want to sign the papers yet, but a lot of us were just 296 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,000 put there even though there were parents waiting and And I 297 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,000 recently learned from another adoptee that they did that as 298 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,500 kind of a test period to see how the baby was going to react 299 00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:14,700 well. Okay. 300 00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:16,800 So then you've just taken away from their mother put him in 301 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,000 foster care. So now they're attaching to the 302 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,599 foster parent and then you're moving them again. 303 00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:24,900 And for me, when I was in foster care because my mom hadn't 304 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:27,000 signed papers yet, she would come see me. 305 00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:31,000 So I would see her for an hour or two and then she would leave 306 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,500 again and then she would come back and I don't know, like I 307 00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:38,900 just wonder how I felt as Baby having her come and go like that 308 00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:43,100 and then getting adopted. And it's, you know, I think 309 00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:47,300 that's probably where I adopted that attachment disorder. 310 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,600 Yeah, yeah, and that's difficult as a baby boy. 311 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,200 Won't child to have a caregiver come in and out in, and out and 312 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,500 did not understand exactly what's going on. 313 00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:59,000 You just know that they're there for a short amount of time, and 314 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,600 then I'm here with these other people, he didn't. 315 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,800 Even if I do develop an attachment to these other 316 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,200 people, they The new thing is that just reinforcing the fact 317 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,500 that I can't develop close relationships because they're 318 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:15,300 going to get disrupted. So, what is the point anyway? 319 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,100 Yeah. Yeah. 320 00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:20,800 There's a lot of adoptees that feel that way and I think they 321 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,700 don't realize why they're doing it, you know. 322 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,900 Yeah, the other thing that I wanted to bring up was 323 00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:32,700 transracial adoptions because that mirroring for any of us, 324 00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:36,500 but especially transracial, adoptees is huge. 325 00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:42,500 And so many of us don't get to experience our biological 326 00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:46,200 culture, you know, they, the families we come into, we kind 327 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,500 of just blend in with that. And partially, because as 328 00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:52,400 adoptive families, want us to feel like part of their family, 329 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,200 they don't want us to feel different, but we do feel 330 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,400 different. Yep, we do. 331 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,500 And so that needs to be looked at. 332 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,500 So why is mirroring so important to children? 333 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,700 I think marrying is so important because As product from what 334 00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:10,100 I've experienced. A lot of people will come to 335 00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:13,900 therapy for me personally because they say, I want someone 336 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:20,400 that looks like, right? So they feel like I share a lot 337 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,100 of different experiences. They might share that. 338 00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:26,400 I might have a different understanding that someone else 339 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,400 and if some aspects, that is true. 340 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,100 So I think mirroring in reference to adoption is, is 341 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:36,700 very important because it gives that person something to hang On 342 00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:40,600 to as far as I can relate to you, that means I would be 343 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,500 easier to attach to you instead of feeling. 344 00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,600 I like them different and that I always have to be on the offense 345 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,400 so I have to always be on guard. No matter how much you tell me 346 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,500 that, you know, I'm a part of the family and how much you tell 347 00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:56,700 me that, you know, you love me in my mind. 348 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,900 Some of the small things you might do shows me that different 349 00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:04,100 and again that goes back to the topic that I like to study. 350 00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:07,100 It's called intergenerational. Trauma, you have these Families 351 00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:11,500 that do have these, you know, the transformational. 352 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:13,200 Have you said it was transformational? 353 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:17,800 Yes, transracial adoptions. They're bringing in certain 354 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,400 things and certain boutiques that they might have 355 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,000 interactions that they have against North specific race or 356 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,500 specific culture. And sometimes that's how they 357 00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:29,800 respond to them and the perceptions that they have about 358 00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:32,500 different races and different cultures might impact exactly 359 00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:35,700 how they interact with a child. And yeah, I think it was also 360 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:39,900 important. And I really think about why am 361 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:42,200 I adopted a child in the first place? 362 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,300 Huge. What is my intention to adopt a 363 00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:49,900 child? And sometimes is you know, bad 364 00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:52,600 intentions. I will say, you know, I want to 365 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:56,800 I want to take this child away from and be the superhero for 366 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,600 this child. But is that really benefiting 367 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,100 child, boys? That benefiting you so that you 368 00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:05,100 can feel like you've done something good for the 369 00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:09,300 environment of the world. So I think really understanding 370 00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:11,700 what you're bringing into this. Like I said before, bringing it 371 00:21:11,708 --> 00:21:14,700 into the adoption is very important. 372 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,900 Yeah, the other thing is infertility. 373 00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:21,100 Is huge. A big reason and a lot of people 374 00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:27,500 adopt without getting therapy for that issue ahead of time. 375 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,500 You know, like grieving that you can't have your own child or 376 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:32,200 whatever needs to happen. I don't even know. 377 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,500 But a lot of times they don't look at those issues before they 378 00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:38,600 adopt and then they try and Slap that bandaid on there and a lot 379 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,600 of times it doesn't work because that's still not your biological 380 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:43,800 child. And no. 381 00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:46,500 So it's difficult, I think, if you don't get that therapy ahead 382 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:49,700 of time, exactly because like I said that child's going to bring 383 00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:53,800 in different behaviors that, you know, you were not anticipating 384 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,000 and that might not even be the child's fault. 385 00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:59,200 And, like I said, could be due to genetics could be direct 386 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,000 interaction and experiences and they're going to bring in stuff 387 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,100 that you might not be ready for. So, how are you going to react 388 00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:08,200 that child teen asleep? Does these disruptive behaviors 389 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,400 and disrupt the family that you created and how are the 390 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,700 attitudes that you didn't create from those beliefs wouldn't 391 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,200 interact? How you are emotionally there 392 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,900 for their child? Yeah. 393 00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:21,600 And you know, a lot of these kids act out there was talk 394 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,700 about the compliant adoptee and then there's the one that acts 395 00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:29,700 out and I was a compliant adoptee, but a lot of that act 396 00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:31,400 out or just waiting for you to reject them. 397 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:32,500 They're like, what are you doing now? 398 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,000 What are you going to do now? Are you going to stay? 399 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,500 Are you know what's, you know? And so it's a testing thing. 400 00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:39,500 I think a lot of adoptive parents are not ready for that 401 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:42,100 and they don't know why this is happening and then they react 402 00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:44,800 like you were saying earlier because they don't understand 403 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,400 that it's part of their relinquishment. 404 00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:52,100 And it's so much you said I was a compliant that people I would 405 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:57,000 even post a question of why were you or any other adoptees so 406 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,800 compliant? What was the reasoning behind 407 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,100 that? It's not just that I want to 408 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:02,800 follow the rules or shows like that. 409 00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:06,400 It could be two things. One I feel like what happened. 410 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,700 He was my fault so I need to be compliant so it doesn't happen 411 00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:12,300 again. Exactly what man, I can be 412 00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,600 compliant and then we would love me. 413 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,500 You check me on my knees would be met. 414 00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:20,200 So again that's the part that anxious attachment style try to 415 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,900 do everything that I can then you're not going to leave me. 416 00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:28,100 That kind of leads into behaviors. 417 00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:30,600 That can happen with adulthood. Yeah, yeah. 418 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:34,900 So kind of getting back to the mirroring for a second. 419 00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:37,700 I think that's another thing that Parents need to look at 420 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:42,600 because like I said they want to make you feel so much a part of 421 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,700 the family that they ignore your biology and your culture. 422 00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:51,400 And it's so important to celebrate that and that's a gift 423 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,200 really because if you bring another child from a different 424 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,400 biology and culture into your family celebrated take, take 425 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,400 them to cultural events. Yeah. 426 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,300 Bring your family to these cultural events cook the food. 427 00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:09,000 Like exactly. Celebrate that I think that is 428 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,800 so much better than trying to ignore it and pretend that they 429 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:19,100 are part of you, you know, exam. So you mentioned, adults 430 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:22,500 attachment Theory, how that plays out as an adult. 431 00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:26,200 What would you see? Okay, so you talked about a 432 00:24:26,208 --> 00:24:31,200 little bit but yeah I haven't really talked a lot about secure 433 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,500 attachment that's because again if I'm secure I don't have any 434 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,200 worries or concerns. Is Michael in really displaying 435 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,500 type of negative behaviors or anything like that. 436 00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:45,000 And you will have a fulfilling and fulfilling relationships. 437 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,700 So but when you look at something like anxious 438 00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:53,800 attachment, then that would look like, I'm always afraid that 439 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,800 someone's going to leave or I do something wrong. 440 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,000 So whenever I whatever something seems wrong and it does again 441 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,800 this my perception doesn't mean necessarily mean very hungry. 442 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,300 When I see that, something's wrong or feel. 443 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:09,300 Nothing's wrong. I'm going to get hyper-vigilant, 444 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:12,600 I'm going to get real anxious and so that means I need to do 445 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,900 whatever I can to make sure that this person state. 446 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:23,400 So what that looks like is, for example, if I feel like I'm in a 447 00:25:23,408 --> 00:25:28,100 relationship or friendship and that person might have had 448 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:31,700 something going on and they own personal life with someone else. 449 00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:35,200 But then they're not talking and I get real high position because 450 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,800 I did something for them not to talk to me and I got to fix it, 451 00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:39,400 so I continue to ask them. What's wrong? 452 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,500 What's wrong? What's wrong? 453 00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:43,400 Because I want to know what can I do to fix it? 454 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,500 And then they get aggravated with me and a lot of people 455 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:48,300 might see that I've been cleaning up. 456 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:51,400 But it's really that. I'm trying to call my own 457 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,900 nervous system down so that I make sure everything's okay or 458 00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:59,700 you have someone with the avoidant attachment. 459 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,800 And what that looks like is I don't really like intimate or 460 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,100 fiscal touch or I want y'all want to keep you at a distance 461 00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:11,800 and I'm not really emotionally available for you and and things 462 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,900 like that. So that person's real distant 463 00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:17,200 and relationship and if you have somebody that's real distant in 464 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,200 a relationship but then you have someone who's very anxious in a 465 00:26:20,208 --> 00:26:23,200 relationship. They want to clash mix and you 466 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,200 know because that person was anxious person could be seen as 467 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,500 cleaning the void and person can be seen as distant. 468 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,100 And even though something is not necessarily wrong with the 469 00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:35,200 person with the what is attachment anxious person who's 470 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,800 going to feel like your needs and then on the try to do 471 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,200 whatever they can to make sure that this is okay. 472 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,200 And that's probably going to get on the avoiding person's nerves. 473 00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:45,900 And now you guess what? The relationship probably ended. 474 00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:49,700 So, what is it when because I see this An adoptee Community 475 00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:55,100 too clingy at first, but then, when that person starts to be 476 00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:59,200 clingy back is when they're like, I'm done, I'm out. 477 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:02,800 Yeah. When you have first, and then, 478 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,800 let's say the person starts to get clean you because that's it. 479 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,800 They have that distrust their so that could be a part of anxious 480 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,900 and avoidance. Ohh with these attachments, you 481 00:27:12,908 --> 00:27:17,200 don't necessarily have to fit in a one category you can move 482 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,500 through these different categories. 483 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,900 So I can have an anxious attachment and I can want these 484 00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:26,000 relationships and I try to do whatever I can, but then once I 485 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,500 get it, I didn't remember. Hang on, wait a minute, we're 486 00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:32,900 not had this before. That person left for that person 487 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,800 would give me what I need. So, let me back myself off a 488 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,100 little bit. So they went from one to the 489 00:27:38,100 --> 00:27:39,900 other and that's not normal at all. 490 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,300 Okay. Yeah. 491 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,400 So I want to talk about adoption fog for a minute. 492 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,600 I know it a lot of adoptees hate the term, but it's just kind of 493 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,100 a blanket term. It's easier to say the fog and 494 00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:53,200 we all know what it means. So the fog describes the way it 495 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,700 up. These feel think operate and 496 00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:58,000 relate before they come out of the denial that they're feeling 497 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,500 and conditioning and ignorance that cloaks, the impacts of 498 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:04,500 adoption. So how to adopt these get in the 499 00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:08,100 fog and the first place, why do we have that screen? 500 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,200 I know you explain that to me a little bit before a little bit 501 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,300 more in-depth. Pinkie Pie one more time because 502 00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:17,500 I tell you just a little bit. Yeah, so the fog is basically 503 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:20,800 kind of a Evil mode. And we don't even realize that 504 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,900 we're doing it. And then usually what happens 505 00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:28,000 is, there's some kind of event that kind of wakes us up where 506 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,300 those rose-colored glasses are off and we're like, oh my gosh, 507 00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:36,400 I have this attachment disorder. This is why I'm, you know, so 508 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,800 angry, this is why I can't have relationships because of those 509 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,100 attachments and things in it's because I was adopted. 510 00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:47,100 We're told so often. Like I said earlier not to have 511 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:50,600 these feelings because In a great family and you're lucky 512 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,900 and, you know, you have parents. And so as a kid we get told that 513 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,400 our feelings are normal. So we put up this fog around us 514 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,600 to kind of help us cope. But then we come out of it and 515 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,600 we're like, whoa! He said defense I really I think 516 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,400 it's worlds, couple things one, I feel like it's a defense 517 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,900 mechanism to. I think is like you said the 518 00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:15,100 point. Imagine the worst survival is so 519 00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:19,100 way for me to be able to survive because as humans, we We want to 520 00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:21,600 be able to survive. We want to make sure their needs 521 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,100 are met and we want to have the filling relationships. 522 00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:26,900 I think that's true for everybody. 523 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,200 But when we have things that happen to us, we put up this fog 524 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,800 or put on this mask to wear. I have to protect myself. 525 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,000 So if I can protect myself that certain things aren't true or I 526 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,400 can protect myself to prevent something from happening than I 527 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,300 ultimately don't feel those negative emotions or negative 528 00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:51,000 feelings that I don't want to. Sakura, his is definitely a 529 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,800 defensive event that you said something happens that kind of 530 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,500 wakes you up and you realize that it is true. 531 00:29:56,700 --> 00:30:00,200 And I think that is so important because you cannot begin to heal 532 00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:03,500 until you acknowledge some of the things that are bothering 533 00:30:03,500 --> 00:30:05,700 you to you. Now sin, they seriously that you 534 00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:09,400 had an impact and has me and also that you acknowledge the 535 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,300 vicar behaviors that they come from that. 536 00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:15,200 So I think it's very important to come out of that falls to 537 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,500 take off that mask to realize that these things. 538 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,600 Things did have an impact on the end but just because they had it 539 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,700 impact doesn't have to have it. So that's two different things, 540 00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:30,000 right? So if it had, it means is 541 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,800 already happened and impact, but it doesn't have to have impact 542 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,600 for me to move forward with my life. 543 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,100 What do you think about? Because some people never say 544 00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:45,600 that they were ever in the fog. You know, there's adoptees that 545 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,600 are just fine throughout their entire lives and it doesn't 546 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,600 bother them. And then other ones it feels 547 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,200 like you know, when they come out of the fog it literally 548 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,200 feels like they're dying. They're hurting so badly is that 549 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,500 kind of related to attachment Styles. 550 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:02,400 Why do you think there's such a problem? 551 00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:07,100 Because what happens is as long as you continue to be in the 552 00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:10,800 fall To go for the body keeps the score. 553 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,300 That's a trauma book as well. So the by the scores, to the 554 00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:17,900 longer I stay in there, I'm ultimately sitting in that 555 00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,200 trauma. And if I continue to sit in a 556 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,700 trauma, you could teams to have this negative impact on, which 557 00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:27,300 is why the longer I stay in it. When I finally do come out, I 558 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:32,200 have this greater response to it as negatively and I think that's 559 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,500 why a lot of people feel like about you used to turning that 560 00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:38,800 they're dying because they sat with his so long On that when 561 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,700 they probably do realizing that, it's just overwhelming for. 562 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,400 Why do some adoptees? Never feel like they have any 563 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,300 Trauma from adoption? Because if I have to acknowledge 564 00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:53,600 it or I have to admit that mean that makes you real. 565 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,300 Hmm. So I want so badly to think that 566 00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:03,500 the experiences that I've had but trauma that I've had before 567 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,100 is not true, it didn't happen anymore that I want to just 568 00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:09,600 forget it. Because if I can forget it, but 569 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,500 I will be okay. But that's not necessarily the 570 00:32:12,500 --> 00:32:17,000 case all the time. And I feel like we don't 571 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,100 acknowledge the, the trauma that you've had. 572 00:32:19,100 --> 00:32:22,600 You can't begin to truly heal and we wonder why these 573 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,200 different relationships that you have with their friendships, 574 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,100 whether their intimate relationships aren't working 575 00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:30,400 out. Why are you respond to different 576 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,700 circumstances? The way that you do or 577 00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:36,900 situations though that you do and so truly trying to 578 00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:40,000 understand yourself You have to admit that these things had a 579 00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:42,800 impact. And what that impact was the 580 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,800 truly figure out? Okay, well, these babies are 581 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,700 working anymore like to try something different. 582 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:49,800 And if you don't acknowledge those things, that's happened in 583 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,700 the past and continue the same things over and over and you 584 00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:57,800 ultimately our aim away. We traumatizing yourself, hmm. 585 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,800 I think it helps the way that you're raised to like, like we 586 00:33:01,808 --> 00:33:06,600 were talking earlier about, if the adoptive parent really talks 587 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,500 about their culture and it allows them to speak about 588 00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:13,500 adoption and get their feelings out early. 589 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,400 I think that is huge to, with how much fog you're in. 590 00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:22,500 Yeah, because everybody wants to feel safe and secure. 591 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:27,000 I'm not going to open up if I don't feel safe and I don't feel 592 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,900 secure. So when I'm adopted and there's 593 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:32,600 not a safe and secure environment, you might get some 594 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,600 things out of me, but you're not going to get everything out of, 595 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,700 right. You might be aware of some of 596 00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:39,700 the things that are Impact in your body but you're not going 597 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:42,200 to know what all. So, creating a safe and secure 598 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,000 environment. I think it's very important in 599 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,800 that, even with the transracial adoptions could be the simple as 600 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,600 bringing in the culture of that, you know, adopt D, so that I can 601 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,200 feel safe and secure. So I have Outcast because 602 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,100 they're different and though they look different. 603 00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:00,600 Yeah. So that's safe and secure 604 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,500 environment is very important. Yeah, letting that child. 605 00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:07,100 Be authentic. I think so many people 606 00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:10,000 especially with Adoption. They want them to just feel so 607 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,400 much a part of them, but they're not. 608 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,699 So let's just let's address the elephant in the room and let's 609 00:34:15,699 --> 00:34:18,400 do it embrace it. It's not a bad thing like we 610 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,600 need to embrace. Yeah and the thing is if I don't 611 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,500 get it from home I wanted you to come somewhere else. 612 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,100 Yeah and I think that's a lot of what happens with these 613 00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:32,300 different behaviors and why you might see some of the top teams 614 00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:35,500 have these negative behaviors be hanging out with you know the 615 00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:38,500 people will say the wrong crowd because Get in trouble or 616 00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:42,400 something like that because they make me feel safe and secure or 617 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,900 these people that I'm interacting with now makes me 618 00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:48,100 safe and secure because they look like and then less, you 619 00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:50,500 bring that into the home they're going to find us. 620 00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:52,500 Some real scenario, might not be the way. 621 00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:55,000 That that adoptive parents we wanted to beat, right? 622 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,600 Let's talk about biological family reunions. 623 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,800 This is like a big subject, obviously, in adoptee 624 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,700 communities, and most of the time these reunions don't go 625 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,400 Well, and mine was difficult only because the, you know, you 626 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,500 have the honeymoon period. And everything's great looking 627 00:35:14,500 --> 00:35:17,700 like what you see on TV and everybody's happy and hugging 628 00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:19,700 and everything. And then after that it's kind of 629 00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:23,800 like, well, I have a mom, so who are you to me now? 630 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,500 And who, what am I going to call you? 631 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:27,400 And it's just so complicated even? 632 00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:31,600 Yeah, my biological siblings. I didn't grow up with them. 633 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:37,100 I want to feel that Bond because we have blood, but I don't. 634 00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:39,700 I love them. You know, and I love having a 635 00:35:39,707 --> 00:35:42,700 relationship with them but I don't have that sibling Bond. 636 00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:48,200 So why why is that? As far as the sibling Bond. 637 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,900 Yeah. Just just in reunions in 638 00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:52,400 general. Like why? 639 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,600 I think a lot of times both sides maybe have expectations 640 00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:00,600 that aren't being met, you know, my birth mother, I believe the 641 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,800 whole time Me growing up and she thought I looked a different way 642 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,000 and would be just different like what she had in her mind was 643 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,500 different. And so just kind of got Rocky 644 00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:12,300 and then you kind of feel like you can't have hard 645 00:36:12,300 --> 00:36:15,200 conversations with this person because it's supposed to be 646 00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:17,500 Happy and we're supposed to get along. 647 00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:19,600 And you know, you don't want to rock the boat is this. 648 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:25,800 So it's a huge, it's a huge thing, but I think that could be 649 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,300 a combination of things, but you can go back to whatever 650 00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:34,200 attachment style that you're actually in at the moment 651 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,400 because you still have that fear that watching it close to you. 652 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,300 Because again you might need more, I can't do it bond with 653 00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:45,300 you because you never been really different so I don't 654 00:36:45,300 --> 00:36:46,400 know. Again, like you said, 655 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,800 expectations. I don't know what to expect so I 656 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,800 can't really get as close to you as I want to and especially in 657 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,000 throughout the reunification piece of it. 658 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,700 You want me to be a certain way or think I'm going to be a 659 00:36:59,707 --> 00:37:04,000 certainly but you respond to what you want me to be out to be 660 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,300 responding to what I am. And I think that's very 661 00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:11,200 important and I'll also think it's important because some of 662 00:37:11,207 --> 00:37:15,000 the families that are being applied those parents or their 663 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,500 siblings, Beings their begin, bringing them to stuff. 664 00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:19,100 That's a intergenerational trauma. 665 00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:21,300 Piece of it. They're bringing in stuff into 666 00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:24,300 these relationships that they still haven't really Shield, or 667 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:28,500 truly fully understand. And so just because you're not 668 00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:33,100 as the forthcoming or open to the relationship at first, 669 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,800 they'll respond and give up quickly because that's probably 670 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,100 how they evolved always done things for for. 671 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,100 So then I really willing to be as patient with you. 672 00:37:42,100 --> 00:37:44,900 Not really be as open as they want you to be because they 673 00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:48,000 expected It was so quickly but when you have it these a 674 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,300 reunification, especially for the major disruption things. 675 00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:53,000 Don't happen quickly. Yeah. 676 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,400 So I think that patients piece isn't there a lot of times? 677 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,400 Yeah. And then just trying to figure 678 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,600 out specially with the mother and biological mom and dad like 679 00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:07,900 I have parents, they're not you, but at the same time, you are my 680 00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:10,900 birth mother. So it's just kind of very 681 00:38:10,900 --> 00:38:14,400 confusing for the adoptee to figure out where these people 682 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,300 fit into. Your life. 683 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,200 Yeah, it's very confusing and that's I think that's something 684 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,600 that we don't think about going into reunions. 685 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,600 We just want the reunions, and I think there needs to be some 686 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,500 therapy before during, and after, yes, for sure Union. 687 00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:35,100 Because it's so complicated, and there's so many ups and downs, 688 00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:37,300 and you just don't know where it's going to end up. 689 00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:40,200 And then you end up with that second rejection from your birth 690 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,900 mother, that is, you know, again like you said that just kind of 691 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:47,300 nails. In those attachment theories, 692 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,200 that you rejected me once and you're doing it again. 693 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,700 Like you want to hear wearable. And so I respond as if you did 694 00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:57,300 it the first time, but if not worse. 695 00:38:57,300 --> 00:38:58,500 Yeah. Yeah. 696 00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:01,500 It's horrible. There's so many stories out 697 00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,200 there. That's why I started doing this 698 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:09,400 podcast because the education isn't out there and it needs to 699 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,700 be, especially for adoptive parents because they're getting 700 00:39:13,700 --> 00:39:16,100 into something that they have. No, Clue. 701 00:39:17,300 --> 00:39:22,400 Listen, like I said, I think being very clear about why you 702 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,800 want to do it. Whether that's your opportunity, 703 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,100 where that's what I want, I want to, you know, add to the family. 704 00:39:28,100 --> 00:39:32,600 Or I want to be the superhero to his child being real. 705 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,200 Clear about how what state your intentions and then help you 706 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,200 with navigating pound what interacting sponsors child. 707 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,500 And I'm going to do what I feel is best for this child and 708 00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:47,300 something I think. Very important to acknowledge is 709 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,200 if especially if you already have children as an adoptive 710 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,900 parent, you're not going to be able to parent that adopted like 711 00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:56,500 your parent. Your own children. 712 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:57,700 Yeah. Can't do it. 713 00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:00,000 Yeah. Because you have to adjust to 714 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,200 that child to Childhood, always going to adjust to you. 715 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,900 If they do it just to you, they probably going to want to least 716 00:40:06,900 --> 00:40:09,800 different attachment styles that are aside from the secure 717 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:15,000 attachment, right? So what are some key things? 718 00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:17,800 What kind of talked about it a little bit but what are some key 719 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,800 things to help adoptees? Adjust as children. 720 00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:27,300 We talked about integrating the culture and their biology we 721 00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:30,200 talked about listening to the child, letting them kind of be 722 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,300 authentic, is there anything that we're missing? 723 00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:38,300 You can think of being specific. I think it was adopting to 724 00:40:38,300 --> 00:40:40,500 figure out exactly. You know, what are some of these 725 00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:42,800 behaviors? They are going on or what are 726 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,300 some of these different how they are. 727 00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:48,600 Acting with me because I think it'll be very specific to their 728 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,700 adoptee because it's not really something I can say that you go 729 00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:57,200 over all do aside from those things that would help them 730 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,500 adjust. But if you can figure out and 731 00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:03,700 educate yourself as far as the adoptive parent about the 732 00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:05,800 child's background that they that's going to be something 733 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,300 that's very helpful, understanding what the child is 734 00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:10,700 one through. Whether that's different also 735 00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:14,300 placements, whether that's different abuse situations that 736 00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:17,200 they've been through. Truly understanding what's going 737 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,800 on. So you can educate yourself 738 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,100 about how to respond to that child. 739 00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:24,100 If they are placed in a situation where they feel 740 00:41:24,100 --> 00:41:27,200 unsafe, they start to respond. I think that's going to be very 741 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,000 important for the adoptive parents and but you ex about the 742 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,600 adoptive child, but I think a lot of we touch on it already. 743 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,100 In my opinion. What do you think about family 744 00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:40,200 therapy? Because when should that start? 745 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,600 Because I believe it should start really adoptive parents 746 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,300 before they adopt, obviously we kind of talked about that. 747 00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:51,300 But integrating the child into that as things come up. 748 00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:53,800 Yep. Do they have that kind of 749 00:41:53,808 --> 00:41:56,700 therapy? What age did that start? 750 00:41:57,100 --> 00:41:59,300 I think that again, I agree with you. 751 00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:04,600 I think that therapy should be before during and after because 752 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,000 before especially when you're looking to adopt before when 753 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,200 you're trying to figure out again, educating yourself about 754 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,700 that, child that your particular about. 755 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:16,500 So that they occur. It can help you work through 756 00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:19,300 some of your own stuff. So that that is an impact how 757 00:42:19,300 --> 00:42:22,400 you interact with a child. But I also think it's going to 758 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,900 be important during but the key thing and I wrote this article, 759 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,300 not too long though. It talked about how some of the 760 00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:32,600 doctor children thought therapy, didn't help. 761 00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:37,600 Mainly because the therapists were most focus on the adoptive 762 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,600 parents or the caseworker in their reports in what they're 763 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,000 saying that they wanted their needs not the children's, not 764 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,300 the Stay when I'm being, yeah. Empathetic to what the child 765 00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:51,200 needed or what about the child wanted at that time? 766 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,900 So therapy was not working at all. 767 00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:58,000 So I think if you were to do therapy before his place, the 768 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,200 main concern is going to be adoptive. 769 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:05,300 Parents during the main concern is going to be both the adoptive 770 00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:09,500 parents and the child but more. So the child and it actors kind 771 00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:13,900 of like wrapping everything up and watching, how the work that 772 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,600 both the child and the as it did before, this kind of reflected 773 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,500 now. When should the start for the 774 00:43:20,500 --> 00:43:22,800 child though? Like what age do you think? 775 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:29,000 As soon as soon as I get to start Wilding, 776 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,300 Rooms there are? We've been in therapy before 777 00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:55,400 anyway? Yeah, a lot of people have and 778 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,500 so I think is the soon as they are adopted but they should be 779 00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:02,200 automatically with the help with maybe whatever brought them into 780 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,100 care. But also to help with the 781 00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:07,700 transition from the removal of the traumatic experience from 782 00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:10,300 the removal. And I used to work at a 783 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,100 community based therapy service opportunity children as well as 784 00:44:13,100 --> 00:44:16,800 three years old. Other therapists that can help 785 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,800 with babies. I'm not sure. 786 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,900 To be honest, I don't want to really tell you, and I'll be 787 00:44:21,900 --> 00:44:23,600 wrong, but I'm not necessarily sure. 788 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,300 I haven't heard. I haven't heard of it, I just, 789 00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:28,100 but I think one is thinking out loud, when they're younger like 790 00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:30,600 that. A lot of the work would be with 791 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,900 the parents, not necessarily do child and then when the child 2 792 00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:39,600 or 3 and R is more able to communicate or show some 793 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,800 behaviors of them, being able to tell you what they want and need 794 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,500 in a way that's when that there are people with the childhood 795 00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:48,100 begin, but a lot of the therapy especially are going on in 796 00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:50,000 childhoods. With their parents. 797 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,500 Yeah, yeah, I've heard of adoptive parents telling their 798 00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:57,800 adoptees later on that. You didn't want to be held. 799 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,400 You didn't want to be hugged, you know, you could like push me 800 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,100 away and so yeah, I guess that would be something that the 801 00:45:04,100 --> 00:45:07,600 parent would have to bring to the therapist and say, what 802 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,000 should I do? You know, should I force that? 803 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,700 Should I not? You know, and I don't even know 804 00:45:11,700 --> 00:45:12,800 what the answers to that would be. 805 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,200 But yeah, I would be more, I guess the adoptive parents. 806 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,700 Kind of, how are you going to handle that? 807 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,200 Yeah, those situations. So complicated. 808 00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:42,100 So tell us how we can get a hold of you. 809 00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:46,300 Do you have any social media or YouTube channels or yes? 810 00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:51,100 So my Facebook profile is called Missing pieces counseling 811 00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:56,300 services and my Instagram is missing pieces counseling. 812 00:45:56,300 --> 00:46:00,100 So the services is not on the end of the Instagram and my 813 00:46:00,100 --> 00:46:10,400 website is actually www.sec.gov sce's counseling, LLC a.com. 814 00:46:10,700 --> 00:46:12,800 And we will put all those in the show notes. 815 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,900 In case, anyone wants to get a hold of, you do do counseling on 816 00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:18,800 YouTube. And I mean, I zoom license. 817 00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:22,200 In South Carolina and I'm license in North Carolina, I do 818 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,300 in-person sessions as well as Telehealth sessions. 819 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,400 Yes ma'am. Good, awesome. 820 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,400 Well, thanks for coming on the show today. 821 00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:31,700 No problem, thank you so much for having me. 822 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,800 I really hope that as an adoptee, you got a little bit of 823 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,900 validation from listening to Terrence today and I hope he got 824 00:46:41,900 --> 00:46:45,700 a little bit of insight inside of the adopting mind. 825 00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:51,400 I think more therapists need to hear what we have to say so that 826 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,800 they can help us heal. And I'm so glad that he's doing 827 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,000 some of these non traditional therapies, you know, I'm big on 828 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,700 that, but the EMDR and things like that, I think it's so 829 00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:06,400 great. To have a toolbox with all kinds 830 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,200 of different therapies so that you can find the right 831 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,700 combination for you. And it's so great. 832 00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:16,500 That Terrence offers many of these things in one spot with 833 00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:19,700 one counselor so that you don't have to go to multiple 834 00:47:19,700 --> 00:47:23,400 counselors because a lot of us adoptees have a hard time 835 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,400 trusting. So it's great that he has kind 836 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,700 of a unique offering for all kinds of clients. 837 00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:32,800 Thanks so much Terrence for coming on the show. 838 00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:35,200 Show. Maybe we'll have him back on to 839 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,900 discuss some of these other therapies and how they can help 840 00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:42,800 the constellation. Now I want to talk to you as a 841 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,700 listener for just a moment. If you enjoy mind your own 842 00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:51,600 Karma, I have a little favor to ask it will only take two 843 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,100 seconds. Can you please subscribe to mind 844 00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:57,900 your own Karma on your listening platform? 845 00:47:58,100 --> 00:48:01,800 The karma crew has been doing such a great job of supporting 846 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,600 this. Just so if you have not done 847 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,200 that yet, that is one way that you can help this podcast, 848 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,000 educate the world. If you would like to know more 849 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,800 about me and this podcast, you can go to my website, mind your 850 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,900 own Karma dot calm. Once again, thank you so much 851 00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:22,600 for listening today and as always, take what you need and 852 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:27,000 leave, what you don't and always remember to mind your own Karma. 853 00:48:27,500 --> 00:48:28,900 I'll see you next time.