1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,000 Hey there, it's Melissa Brunetti, and welcome to the 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:17,400 Mind Your Own Karma podcast. They didn't know, you know, And 3 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,200 from my perspective, like I shouldn't have survived, you 4 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,800 know, there were a lot of reasons why I shouldn't have 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,880 survived those circumstances. Hey there, Karma crew. 6 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,159 Thanks for joining me for this episode of Mind Your Own Karma, 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,080 The Adoption Chronicles. Today I have Doctor Liz de Beta 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,120 on the show. She's a creator of Migrating 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,520 Toward Wholeness, is an adoptee and independent scholar, 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,840 activist, and artist committed to changing systems and helping 11 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,920 people navigate trauma through creative processes. 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,960 She believes that stories are powerful change agents and when 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,760 we write them and share them, we connect and heal. 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:02,480 Liz is a proud member of Actors Equity, SAG, AFTA affiliate 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,440 faculty at the Institute for Research on Women and Gender and 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,080 part of the Diversity Scholars Network at the National Center 17 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,120 for Institutional Diversity at the University of Michigan. 18 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,840 She has published articles on auto ethography and adopting 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,600 narratives as an award-winning one woman show called UNMOTHERED 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,560 and facilitates trauma Informed Healing workshops for adoptees 21 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,040 and women. Here is my interview with Doctor 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:35,080 Liz Dabetta. So we are welcoming Liz to the 23 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:36,360 show today. Hi, Liz. 24 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,720 Hi. So I just wanted to say I found 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:45,000 your book, Adult Adoptees and Writing to Heal for Myself so 26 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,360 validating in so many ways. So I just want to start off by 27 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,360 thanking you for that. You know, it's different from 28 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,720 all of the adoptee books I've read so far. 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,120 And what I love the most is that what you write about is so 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,640 universal for all adoptees and it doesn't really matter what 31 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,640 your story is. So I love that the details 32 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:14,320 really don't matter and just so many validating statements for 33 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,840 myself and I know other people would think the same. 34 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:21,040 And you put in the book you wrote trauma rewires and 35 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:25,000 adoptees brain and reorganizes the way we respond to different 36 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,320 situations. And for me, just hearing that 37 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:36,120 one sentence was like, yes, it's scientific fact. 38 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,280 It is scientific fact that adoption rewires our brain. 39 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,480 We're not weird, we're not strange, we're not broken. 40 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,840 We're adopted, and so I just want to thank you for that. 41 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,440 Just straight up off off the top, but let's get into the book 42 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,960 in a minute. I just kind of want to hear your 43 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,600 adoption story, what you know about it, why you were adopted, 44 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,200 and so we can kind of get a feel for where you're coming from. 45 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:03,760 Sure. Yeah. 46 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,640 And and thank you for for that comment about the book. 47 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:08,920 And I know we're going to get into talking about that later, 48 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:13,320 but it's validating for me to hear that because that's such a 49 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:19,360 big part of why I do what I do and why I use my story, you 50 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,480 know, as the central point of all of the work that I do for 51 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:27,760 myself and with other adoptees. Because I, I do find that our, 52 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,560 our stories, our internal experiences are so connected, 53 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,800 despite the difference in our individual circumstances. 54 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,360 And so that's a good segue into my story, which is, you know, 55 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:46,640 like all of our stories, complicated and emotional and, 56 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:53,160 you know, always in flux. So I so I'm a domestic infant 57 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:58,000 adoptee here in the US And so I was a white kid adopted into a 58 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,000 white family in the late 70s, nineteen 77. 59 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,960 I was, I'm one of two adopted kids in my family or now we are 60 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:13,120 adults and I have an older brother who is 14 months older 61 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,920 than I am. And, and from, you know, sort of 62 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:22,120 what I've been told my whole life, sort of unusual to have 63 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:28,320 two kids adopted into the same family relatively close 64 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,240 proximity, you know, again, 14 months apart. 65 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:40,600 The story that I was told about that was that my mom was home 66 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:48,920 already raising my brother and I was born prematurely and they 67 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,920 didn't know what kind of needs I might have. 68 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:58,120 And that the adoption agency felt like that that my family 69 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:04,200 might be a good fit in case I had special needs or extra needs 70 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,160 because of my, you know, being born 2 lbs eleven oz. 71 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,920 And in the 1970s, in the NICU, before the NICU was the NICU 72 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:14,360 that we. Know it to to be. 73 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:20,640 Today And so like, you know, and so my, the story that my parents 74 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,920 have told is one that's that basically says that, you know, 75 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,880 they got this call and you know, we have a we, we have a, a baby 76 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,280 girl who who's going to need to have a family. 77 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:35,880 And do you want to do you want to have another baby? 78 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,480 And they were like, yeah, of course we want another baby, 79 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,560 right? And, you know, and the story was 80 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,960 very much that, you know, they felt like my parents would be a 81 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,960 good fit because my mom was already home and in case I had 82 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,680 these extra needs or whatever. But it was all sort of really 83 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,640 TBD because they didn't know, you know, and from my 84 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,840 perspective, like I shouldn't have survived, you know, there 85 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:03,000 were a lot of reasons why I shouldn't have survived those 86 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,320 circumstances. And that is not lost on me, you 87 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,680 know, And, and that's the thing that I always kind of carry with 88 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,640 me is like, you know, that that little baby Liz was like, Nah, I 89 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,720 got something to do. I got something to do in this 90 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,400 life. Don't worry about it. 91 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,680 I'm not fully up. But I'm gonna get there, right? 92 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,320 And, you know, and so, like, that's part of the, like, sort 93 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,920 of origin story. And, you know, there's a little 94 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:37,560 bit of like, you know, saviorism and glorification of my adoptive 95 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,640 parents in that, you know, which I can see now in retrospect as 96 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,120 an as an adult looking at that story. 97 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:55,120 But I was also told that I that my first parents or first family 98 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:00,160 wanted me to go to a Catholic family, that they would not sign 99 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,160 a religious release on any of the paperwork and that they 100 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,800 wanted me to go to people with college degrees. 101 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,960 And so that was one of my entrance narrative, right? 102 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,640 How come I got adopted, how I ended up in my family, all that 103 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,080 jazz. I found out many years later 104 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:23,040 that most of that wasn't actually true because when I 105 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:28,120 was, yeah, when I was about 20, I started to have some 106 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,880 significant like mental health challenges and relationship 107 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:38,360 issues and decided, oh, maybe I need to think about my adoption. 108 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,880 Maybe that's something. And so I had requested my non 109 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,120 identifying information at that point and got the file in the 110 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,720 mail. And you know, it was 1997, I'm 111 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,960 going to say. So Internet baby stages, we 112 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,040 don't know, you know, we, it was hard to find any information we 113 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,600 don't have, we didn't have the access then that we do now. 114 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:04,080 And so I kind of like explored it for a while, but didn't get 115 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,080 very far and then put it away for many years and, and didn't 116 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:12,720 get back to it. And, you know, it's, it's all of 117 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,200 it's challenging because half of the information that was in that 118 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,760 paperwork turned out to also not be true. 119 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:25,760 Wow, so you must have found your biological family. 120 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:35,480 Yeah, so in 2017 I had just that, you know, right, couple 121 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,520 weeks before the beginning of 2017, gotten Adna kit for 122 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,120 Christmas for my, my partner. And because we were very much 123 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,520 having these conversations about, OK, now is the time for 124 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,160 me to, to, to start to search. Like I think I'm ready in my 125 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:56,480 life and I'm, I'm prepared to do the things that I need to do to 126 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,120 try to find my first mom. And so he was like, well, let me 127 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,480 get your DNA kit, right. So did that spit in the tube, 128 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,680 sent it away. And then a couple of days later 129 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,280 had come across an article that was posted in one of the adoptee 130 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:17,240 groups that I was on Facebook, part of on Facebook. 131 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,040 And somebody, you know, posted this article that New Jersey, 132 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:27,040 where I was adopted, had changed the laws to allow for partial 133 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,600 access to original birth certificates. 134 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,480 And I was like, oh, wow, this is great timing. 135 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,360 So I sent away for that. It took me three tries because 136 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:41,800 the paperwork is so opaque and the directions were not clear. 137 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,920 And they kept sending it back saying you forgot this or you 138 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,040 sent the wrong, you know, proof of identity or whatever BS. 139 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,200 And so, you know, it was a sort of couple months, you know, 140 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,200 almost two months long process. And then on my 40th birthday, I 141 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:06,360 got the envelope in the mail from the New Jersey Records. 142 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,480 And I will never forget it because it was a, there was a 143 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,200 snowstorm and I was working from home that day. 144 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,200 And I waited until my partner got home. 145 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,120 And then I was like, look at this, you know, and, and then we 146 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,800 opened it after we had dinner. And that was like a strange and 147 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,560 kind of wonderful birthday gift, I guess, you know, 40 years 148 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:31,720 later and I, I found out my first mom's name. 149 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:37,720 There was no biological father listed on the birth certificate, 150 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,440 nor did I have a name. I was just baby. 151 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,240 Wow. And how does that feel? 152 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,040 How does that feel? Yeah, You know, I know this is a 153 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,480 challenge for a lot of adopted people, right? 154 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,920 Either the finding out of I had a different name or like not 155 00:10:54,920 --> 00:11:00,120 being named. And you know, I don't have any 156 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,800 deep feelings about it. It it just all feels kind of 157 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,800 strange, you know, And for a long time I, I had a big 158 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:15,840 separation in internally about like my baby self and my, my 159 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,080 actual self. Like it took me a long time in, 160 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:26,120 in therapy and particularly EMDR to sort of integrate that those 161 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,040 parts of myself, right, because I didn't, I didn't feel real and 162 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,240 I didn't feel connected to baby Liz in any way. 163 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,440 Like I would look at, you know, the very, you know, the, the, 164 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,600 the I have this one picture of myself from my christening, 165 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,160 which is probably one of the first baby pictures I have of 166 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,040 myself. And like I was looked at that 167 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,320 like knowing it was me, but not feeling connected to me, if that 168 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,480 makes sense. And so, you know, I was just 169 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:02,120 like, OK, this is just another crazy function of, of the story 170 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,880 that I'm trying to piece together, the story that I'm 171 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,440 trying to understand, the story that makes up who I am. 172 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,440 And I, you know, and funnily enough, there is a name in the 173 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:19,560 non identifying paperwork somebody and I don't know who 174 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,240 they called me baby Alicia. So I did have a name, but I 175 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,360 don't know where that came from because that part of my. 176 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,800 Story You weren't officially adopted till you were like nine 177 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,640 months or. Nine months old. 178 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,800 That's right. OK, so maybe foster parents or 179 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,360 some, yeah, maybe named you because what do they can't just 180 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:37,960 not call you something, right? Baby. 181 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,160 Yeah, a baby. A little baby. 182 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,360 Yeah, so did. You always a little baby. 183 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,760 Yeah, you were. Did you always know you were 184 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,840 adopted or do you remember being told or? 185 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,600 Yeah, I do. We, we and I say we 'cause it's 186 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,560 my brother and I I don't ever remember not knowing. 187 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:00,760 We we knew from the time we were, we could remember that we 188 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,800 were adopted. So, you know, early on, it 189 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,040 wasn't a secret. It was something that was, you 190 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,360 know, just open knowledge in in our family, both like our, you 191 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:16,200 know, immediate family, but also extended family and friends like 192 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:21,160 it it my parents didn't didn't make it a secret, but when I was 193 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:27,880 five, my mom got pregnant and had my younger brother who has 194 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,000 Down syndrome. And that really changed the 195 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,600 focus of our family, understandably, right? 196 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,200 You know, But also that was 1982. 197 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,880 It was just after deinstitutionalization. 198 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,160 And they were really scrambling to figure out like, what what, 199 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,960 how to meet his needs, like what he was going to need because we 200 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,920 didn't know. And, you know, so after Frank 201 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:59,920 was born, we just kind of stopped talking about adoption 202 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,840 in our family. Now, is he biological to your 203 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:03,640 parents? OK. 204 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,240 Yes. Yeah, totally understandable. 205 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,000 I want to talk about when you started discovering writing and 206 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,520 how that was kind of a surprising but huge impact on 207 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:19,800 you. I mean, you're pretty young. 208 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,000 I believe you were like at 14 when a teacher kind of 209 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,800 encouraged you tell us what you're writing catharsis look 210 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:32,760 like and where were you when you started and kind of where did 211 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,640 that lead you along the way? Yeah. 212 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:43,360 So yeah, I was 14 and had like super big crazy emotions. 213 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:49,720 Like lots of big feelings, lots of overwhelming feelings all of 214 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,880 the time. Lots of just exploding tears, 215 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,200 you know, because that's my default reaction. 216 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,560 I'm a crier, that's my stress reaction, that's my grief 217 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,960 reaction, that's my anger reaction, that's my overwhelm 218 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,360 reaction, that's my over tired reaction at all of the things, 219 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:13,360 right. But you know, at 14, I had no 220 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:18,080 concept of the impact that adoption had on my life. 221 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,880 It wasn't even on my radar, right? 222 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:26,960 I just was continually overflowing, you know, and 223 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,680 feeling really sad and really confused so much of the time. 224 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:36,000 And I had a, a really smart and insightful teacher and coach, 225 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,800 Mr. Anthony. George Anthony is his name, and 226 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,160 I'm still in touch with him, which is a beautiful thing about 227 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,400 my life. Who said to me, you know, did 228 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:49,840 you ever think about writing poems? 229 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,880 And I was like, what? No. 230 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,480 I thought it was the dumbest thing I had ever heard, Right? 231 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,720 Like, I was like, no, that's silly. 232 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,760 Who writes poems? Come on. 233 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,920 And he was like, well, just think about it. 234 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,520 And then, like, a couple of weeks later, we were sitting in 235 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,080 his office talking about something. 236 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,840 And he's like, hey, can I share something with you? 237 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:16,200 And I was like, yeah, sure. And he read me this poem that he 238 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,440 had written when he was in college that had been published 239 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,320 in a college literary magazine. And he told me the whole story 240 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,000 about how he wrote this poem and why he wrote this poem and what 241 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,680 it meant. And I remember, like, having a 242 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,920 real paradigm shift in that moment of going like, oh, well, 243 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,920 if this this man, right? And I had these very gendered, 244 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,880 you know, stereotypical gender role ideas at the time. 245 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,760 I have since moved way past them. 246 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,080 And he, you know, I thought if this man can write this poem, 247 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,800 like, maybe it's not so stupid. Like maybe there's something 248 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,320 here. And so I got this little 249 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:56,960 notebook, this little pretty notebook. 250 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,680 I went out, you know, on, you know, the way home from school. 251 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,760 I stopped in the local stationery store that was in my 252 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,839 town after I got off the bus. And I bought this notebook and I 253 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:10,079 started writing and it was really private. 254 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,880 Like it was not anything that I shared with anyone for many, 255 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,880 many years. It was just my own space where I 256 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,359 didn't even like sit down to consciously. 257 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:23,839 Like, now I'm going to write about this. 258 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:26,079 I would just feel so overwhelmed. 259 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:28,960 And I'd be like, OK, And a thought would come to me and I'd 260 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,200 just grab a pen and I would write, you know? 261 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:37,560 And, and at the time, that experience was just cathartic in 262 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,320 the way that As for as long as, and I say this in my one woman 263 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,560 show unmothered, it helped me find some release for as long as 264 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,800 my pen moved across the page, right? 265 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:52,960 I just knew that when I wrote, I felt better and that and that I 266 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,240 felt like that everything felt a little bit less raw and a little 267 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,440 bit less intense. And so it was a lifeline for me 268 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,720 early on and for many, many years, whenever things felt 269 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,560 really big or overwhelming, I knew that I could put a pen to 270 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:15,880 paper and, and write a poem or 10 poems, you know, and, and 271 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,760 express whatever that thing inside me was that needed to get 272 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,640 out. Where that took me all of these 273 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:30,680 years later is incredible. And I didn't really know at the 274 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,600 time that what I was doing was going to turn into what it has, 275 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,200 right. And I, I and I discovered 276 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:46,200 writing and healing when I got into grad school And, and 277 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,320 there's kind of two stories there, but I'll, I'll pause in 278 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,920 case you have another. OK, You know, it's funny, 'cause 279 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,040 I, you know, talk to people about coming on the show all the 280 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,840 time, lots of adoptees. And there's been a few times 281 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,840 where in fact, today it happened where I get an e-mail from 282 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,120 somebody and they've scheduled, we're in the process where, you 283 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,800 know, it's coming up like within a week and something shifts and 284 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,720 they're like, I can't, I can't do this now. 285 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,960 I can't tell my story. It's going to hurt this person's 286 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,600 going to hurt that person, even though it's really what they 287 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,640 want to do is share, you know, something like that comes up and 288 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,280 they just can't do it. And so when I was reading your 289 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,880 book, I was thinking that's a way 'cause, you know, the guests 290 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,800 on my show usually say, Oh my gosh, it was so healing even for 291 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,760 me, you know, just telling my story. 292 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,240 So I get sad when I hear that, but I totally understand, you 293 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:38,880 know, where they're coming from. Totally get it. 294 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,720 But I'm thinking this is a way for them to channel and heal 295 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,680 privately and, you know, maybe at some point they will be able 296 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,080 to come tell their story. But, you know, I thought, wow, 297 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,680 this would be something that they could do in the meantime to 298 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,800 kind of tell their story and and, you know, get some feelings 299 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,840 out and and he'll a. 100% I mean, in that, you know, that's 300 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,000 really the reason why I wrote the book. 301 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,080 And I, you know, say it in the, in the introduction that like 302 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,880 it's my gift to the adoptee community to have a resource. 303 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:17,640 And, and that comes very much out of not only my sort of at 304 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,680 this point, really lifelong, you know, it's over 30 years now of 305 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,520 writing, you know, that, you know, from the time I started at 306 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:30,400 14 and now I'm 47. And like, that is decades of, of 307 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,360 writing and, and discovering myself in my writing. 308 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:38,120 And, and the book is, you know, what is really meant to be a 309 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:41,480 resource for folks that, that need to give themselves 310 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:42,920 permission. And that's actually part of the 311 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,320 whole migrating toward wholeness process that I lay out in the 312 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,560 book and that I've developed over the last, you know, seven 313 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,320 or eight years, which is that we need to give ourselves 314 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:58,160 permission to tell our stories. And, and sometimes there is a 315 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,200 cost, right? And sometimes it's safer to stay 316 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,280 silent. And, and I recognize that, 317 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,920 right. So what are the options if right 318 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,520 now is not the time? You can, you know, you can put a 319 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,120 pen to paper, you can open a Word document that you don't 320 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:18,920 show anybody and do this as a private activity. 321 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,320 Because if, if the, if the story doesn't go somewhere and if the 322 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,640 internal feelings don't go somewhere, if we don't give them 323 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,280 a container, right, they live inside of us. 324 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,640 And, and that's where the sickness comes from. 325 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,080 That's, that's where the, you know, the unresolved grief, the, 326 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:37,920 you know, we know trauma lives in the body. 327 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,600 And so very, I talk about how this, this healing process of 328 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,960 using writing helps us to migrate embodied trauma. 329 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,080 And it does because we're putting the, we're taking the 330 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,440 words outside of our bodies and, and giving them a place to live 331 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,440 outside of ourselves, even if we don't show it, share it with 332 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,160 anyone yet, right? Just giving ourselves permission 333 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,720 to speak in whatever way we have access to is a first step in the 334 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,240 process. Yeah. 335 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,200 There's different ways to Share your story. 336 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,000 It's not always doesn't have to be publicly, no. 337 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,360 So you talk about in the book cognitive behavior therapy and 338 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,120 why it may not be helpful in some cases when we're dealing 339 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:21,560 with pre verbal trauma. Can you talk about that a little 340 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,200 bit? Yeah. 341 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,360 So this also really comes out of my, my experience of having been 342 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:32,200 in therapy for, you know, just, you know, the better part of 15 343 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,240 years and, you know, regular CBT, cognitive behavioral 344 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,560 therapy, right, which is traditional therapy modality 345 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,240 that many people utilize and are familiar with and and have 346 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,640 experience either on one side or the other, right. 347 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,480 And in those 15 years with the same therapist, never once 348 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,840 talking about the fact that I was adopted, never once like 349 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,760 that being even a consideration as the, you know, sort of the 350 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,240 source of how to put this in quotes. 351 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,520 My issues, right? My issues with relationships, my 352 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,640 issues with finishing things, my issue, you know, like making the 353 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:19,400 kinds of choices I was making. I mean, you know, and when I 354 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:26,000 started reading the adoption literature as I was finishing, 355 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,800 you know, my master's degree and sort of starting my own healing 356 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,720 journey, and then, you know, sort of thinking about maybe I'm 357 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,400 going to get my PhD. And then when I got into my PhD 358 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,880 program, I really started reading the literature and I was 359 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,720 like, oh, I'm not crazy. There's a, there's, you know, 360 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,960 there. This all really lines up with 361 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:49,840 my, with my experience and my story and I, I, I, I, and with 362 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,200 me going to this therapist for 15 years, I stopped going 363 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,840 because I hit a point where every time I left, I felt worse. 364 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,480 I felt worse than when I walked in that door. 365 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,440 And I'm like, well, this is not helping me. 366 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,760 And of course, at the time, I didn't realize that I needed 367 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,800 something different. And and also I didn't realize 368 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,440 yet that all of the stuff that I was continually dealing with was 369 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,000 connected to being adopted and was connected to my pre verbal 370 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,120 trauma that had gone on, you know, acknowledged and 371 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:22,840 unaddressed. And it took me another several 372 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:28,360 years before, you know, I actually went to an adopt D 373 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,080 conference. I went to the American Adoption 374 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,480 Congress conference, I think in 2018, I think it was 2018. 375 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,800 It might have been 2019. And that was the first time that 376 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,200 I had come together with other adoptees, many of whom were also 377 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,000 therapists, and started having these conversations. 378 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:54,120 And, and somebody was like, you know, said to me, you know, you 379 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,120 might be having somatic memories. 380 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,000 And have you ever thought about that? 381 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,960 And like, just really eye opening. 382 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,920 And then I started, you know, kind of putting the dots 383 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,480 together. And then when I got home, I 384 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:12,840 realized that I need a different kind of therapy and that I had 385 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,120 not had adoption competent or trauma competent therapy. 386 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,360 And because they had the intellectual understanding of 387 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:21,880 those things and I had done the reading and the research and I 388 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,720 understood, right that that that the, the trauma informed folks 389 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,200 were like, no, cognitive behavioral therapy doesn't work 390 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,240 because we can't talk ourselves out of something we don't have 391 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:36,800 words for, right? And so I then I realized I 392 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,240 needed a brain based therapy and I and sought that out and I was 393 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,440 very lucky that I was able to find that. 394 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:48,240 But it shouldn't take anybody 40 years. 395 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:51,480 You know, that's, that's the tragic part of it. 396 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,480 Well. Unfortunately, we don't, we 397 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,600 don't validate ourselves in that way until we're 40 or 50, most 398 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,480 of us, you know? Yeah. 399 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,800 So I want to talk about identity a little bit or lack of identity 400 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,560 for the adoptee. Talk about your personal 401 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:15,200 experience with your identity and do you think that adoptees 402 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,600 can regain our authentic selves? Yeah, that's such a good 403 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:29,840 question and the yes, I do. And it's also a journey, right? 404 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:35,400 Like so much of, of this experience as adoptees of my 405 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,800 experience as an adopted person and like the experience that I 406 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,000 share with other adoptees over the, you know, many years that 407 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,240 I've that I've been able to be friends with and also work with 408 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:52,080 so many people in our community is the knowledge that we can 409 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,640 find a sense of authenticity. But it takes work, right? 410 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,440 And, and it, and it takes a lot of support. 411 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,640 And I say that because I have done it. 412 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,480 I have worked really hard to figure out who I am in this 413 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,320 world and what I need and how to, how to take up space, right? 414 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,520 How not to continue to disappear into the background. 415 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,360 And it's all part of this healing journey. 416 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:21,240 And it, none of it is linear, right? 417 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,560 That's another thing that I talk a lot about is, is the fact that 418 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,960 healing isn't linear and neither is coming into that sense of 419 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,000 self. But that's the idea behind 420 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,160 migrating toward wholeness. For me, that idea of migrating 421 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:39,480 toward wholeness is really about finding authenticity and and 422 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:48,600 finding home in ourselves. And because I think I have spent 423 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:54,080 so much of my life chasing things that are external to me 424 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,240 because I, I didn't know who I was and I didn't know where I 425 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:02,160 came from and I couldn't find answers to things that I just, I 426 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,400 was focused on all of these things outside because I 427 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,680 couldn't make sense of the internal chaos. 428 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,120 And, and then when I started to figure out the answers that I 429 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:17,760 could figure out, some of the puzzle pieces started to click 430 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,040 into place. And then the pieces that I that 431 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,360 I didn't know, and I still don't know. 432 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,320 I have been able to rewrite those parts of my story in a way 433 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,720 that makes sense for me so that I can continue to inhabit that 434 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:40,680 sense of wholeness, knowing that I am capable of being and doing 435 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,480 and making choices, right? And having agency over my own 436 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,760 life. And part of that agency is 437 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,480 telling my story. Right. 438 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,600 Another thing that you talk about in the book is attachment 439 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,040 and bonding. What's the difference? 440 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:05,120 I think, I think the difference is that like attachment can, can 441 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,440 is, is sort of that like what's the word I want? 442 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:19,600 Like we think like that's the, the goal is attachment, but but 443 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,400 when we don't have a healthy attachment, so like we don't 444 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,560 have a healthy attachment early on, then it becomes really hard 445 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,960 to distinguish the difference between like attachment and then 446 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,280 able, being able to like have a healthy bond with someone. 447 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,360 And so like, for example, I guess the best way I can talk 448 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:45,840 about this is through a story is like, I had such severe 449 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:52,640 separation anxiety, right? Because I had such disorganized 450 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,800 and anxious attachment, like I, when I couldn't stay away at 451 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,200 college because I didn't know how to, how to separate from my 452 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,520 family, right? My identity at that point was 453 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,920 very much tied to my role in my family, which was as a 454 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,840 caretaker. I was taking care of my mom. 455 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,600 I was taking care of my younger brother. 456 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,280 So it was very attached to them and, and because they needed me, 457 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,280 it was like, you know, Velcro, right, sort of a Velcro thing. 458 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,520 So you think about like attachment as Velcro, like we 459 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,560 can stick together and that's fine, but that doesn't 460 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:34,000 necessarily mean that that's a firm bond or hold, right? 461 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,160 Like it can, it can be broken, right? 462 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,280 We can, we can rip that Velcro apart. 463 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,440 Whereas the bonding and, and this is, you know, that like 464 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,960 adoption one O 1, like we, you know, we didn't get that with 465 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,560 our, with our first mothers, right? 466 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,840 We didn't get held immediately. We didn't, we didn't breast get 467 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,080 breastfed. We didn't, we didn't get the 468 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,840 skin to skin contact. And so it can become really hard 469 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,080 to form significant bonds with people without having that early 470 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,960 experience. And it took me fully into my 30s 471 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,240 to start to differentiate between the two, you know, and I 472 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,920 was attached unhealthily to a lot of people and a lot of 473 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:23,360 things, but didn't have the necessary bonds for successful 474 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,080 relationships. So I, I would say that the 475 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,680 differentiation for me is about like the bonding is about it 476 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,760 ties into authenticity, right? Like, I think, you know, as I've 477 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,040 come more into myself, I have been able to create successful 478 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,680 bonds in my relationships because I'm no longer hiding and 479 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,720 I'm no longer afraid and and I can take up space. 480 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,200 Yeah, that's huge. So in the book you say as a 481 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,400 society we struggle with the idea that adoption is traumatic. 482 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:03,240 Why do you think that is? Because, you know, Western 483 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:09,040 society, the United States, we like a happy ending, right? 484 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:15,160 We like the Disney story and we don't, we don't have space in 485 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,960 our culture for, for grief. We don't have space in our 486 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,440 culture for anything that doesn't feel neat or tidy. 487 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,720 It those those kinds of things are too hard. 488 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,800 And so, you know, just based on my personal experience, you 489 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,720 know, also my academic and intellectual training, you know, 490 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,360 like I see it in the literature, but I see it like in media that 491 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,040 we don't like, nobody talks about trauma, right? 492 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,960 And like, nobody wants to like, look at the dark side of things, 493 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,120 which is that when you separate a baby and its mother, like 494 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,360 there's irreparable damage there, right? 495 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,840 But we don't, we're not going to talk about that because it's 496 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,440 uncomfortable. And, and I think really the, the 497 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,640 reason I wrote that and the reason I think that that, that 498 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,400 this to be true is that we people don't like being 499 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,120 uncomfortable, right? We like to stay comfortable. 500 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,240 And I say we meaning like in general, right? 501 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:24,640 Like, but for me, like we don't grow by staying comfortable and, 502 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,920 and so much of my own journey and so much of my own healing 503 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:33,400 has, has come from being really fucking uncomfortable, you know, 504 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,000 and having some really uncomfortable conversations, 505 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,840 really difficult conversations and like getting through them 506 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,440 and realizing, OK, this isn't going to kill me. 507 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,040 I'm not, I'm not dead. I'm not dying. 508 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,920 I might feel like I'm dying, right? 509 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,280 Do you ever feel like you're the only one struggling and feeling 510 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,120 stuck? We all carry hidden burdens, but 511 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,720 there's a way to find relief. Somatic, mindful, guided imagery 512 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,240 can help unlock your inner peace and heal past traumas. 513 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,000 Discover the power within. Visit somatichealingjourneys.com 514 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,159 because everyone deserves a lighter load. 515 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,960 For me, I feel like if someone finds out through conversation, 516 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,239 you know, somewhere that I'm adopted. 517 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,000 It's almost like, let's change the subject really quick. 518 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,320 We don't want to talk about that, you know, that that might 519 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,080 that might make you uncomfortable, meaning me 520 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,199 uncomfortable. But really it's like, no, I want 521 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,600 to talk about it and I, you know, ask me questions. 522 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,880 I don't get offended. To me, that's educating people, 523 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,600 you know, and you know, I've had a lot of people be like, oh, 524 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,760 wow, thank you for putting, you know, putting that perspective 525 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,679 on it. I never thought of it that way, 526 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,400 you know, Yeah, I think people really do get uncomfortable, and 527 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,560 they're just like, OK, well, you have great parents, so you're 528 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:54,199 OK. Right. 529 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,080 Next subject. Right. 530 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:57,920 It turned out OK, right? Next subject. 531 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,120 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's the same reason people don't want to 532 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,600 talk about race, right? Yeah. 533 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,160 They don't they and I mean, you know, partly if they don't maybe 534 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,280 don't, maybe don't know the questions to ask or have the 535 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,520 context right and and they're. You know, even in grief, when 536 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,880 someone passes, you know, a lot of times the person who had the 537 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,480 loved one pass, they want to talk about that person and and 538 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,200 everyone else is like, well, I don't want to bring him up 539 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,960 because it's going to make her sad when really they want to 540 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,680 talk about it, you know. But yeah, I think a lot of it is 541 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,720 we just don't know what to say. You know, it's a lot of it. 542 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:39,760 We talked about or you talked about how adoption is Trot you 543 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,520 some superpowers that you had. Talk about that a little bit. 544 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:50,280 Yeah, I mean, I, I have developed an extraordinary 545 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,880 amount of empathy, you know, I mean, I might adopt these 546 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,360 superpowers, you know, being really empathetic. 547 00:35:56,720 --> 00:36:03,960 I'm really good at reading people and rooms and energy and 548 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:10,320 knowing just just knowing things about situations and about 549 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,120 people and, and being able to kind of feel my way through 550 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:21,320 things. It I'm also a really good holder 551 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:27,600 of space for other people. I'm not always good at holding 552 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,840 space for myself. It's the thing I'm working on, 553 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,080 right, because we're always in works in progress. 554 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,800 And I always remind myself of that, you know, and it's because 555 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,880 I, over the course of my life have, you know, I grew up with a 556 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,720 brother with a disability. I'm, I'm adopted and I have 557 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:52,840 always had to be the chameleon in the room, right, to be able 558 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,440 to fit into any situation. I did theater for a long time, 559 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,840 which was the other sort of lifeline besides writing that 560 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,160 really helped me. And, and those, those are all 561 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:13,480 skills that helped me to form this extraordinary ability to be 562 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:20,000 in community with other people and feel their feelings and, you 563 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,040 know, have insights into sort of the human experience that a lot 564 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:29,000 of other people don't have. Yeah, I think that, I mean, why 565 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,840 don't we go through anything hard is, you know, to learn and 566 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,760 grow and find out what gifts that brings because they, I 567 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,120 think, I think everything that you go through does become a 568 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,800 superpower if you can kind of shift that mindset and look at 569 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,520 it a little bit differently. What do you hope that people 570 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:56,320 gain from this book? I, I really want people who read 571 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,800 the book and use it as a tool to gain some insight into 572 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:08,920 themselves, to gain some power and agency over their stories in 573 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,480 order to find a greater sense of wholeness. 574 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,440 You know, I want them to find healing and healing, you know, 575 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,400 is one of those words that we talk a lot about these days, 576 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,160 especially in the adoptee community. 577 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,760 And what is healing? And you know, what does it mean? 578 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,720 And, and can we heal even, and, and I think it's a really 579 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:31,920 individual experience, right? Because what healing looks like 580 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,240 for me looks very different for you, Melissa, right, like, and 581 00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:39,560 for every other person. And so we we have to think about 582 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,960 healing as an individual experience. 583 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,720 And so that's why I, you know, use the term migrating toward 584 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:48,960 wholeness because maybe healing doesn't feel like the right word 585 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,480 for you. But maybe a greater sense of 586 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,160 wholeness is the healing journey, right? 587 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,560 To find a greater sense of wholeness through the stories 588 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,160 that you are able to tell through the insights that you 589 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,640 are able to gain by doing the writing exercises in the book. 590 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,000 And by connecting, I mean, so much of the work that I've laid 591 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000 out in, in the book and also the work that I do in my small 592 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,680 groups and, and one-on-one coaching with adoptees is about 593 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,440 making a deeper connection, a deeper connection to ourselves 594 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,640 so that we can more deeply connect to other people. 595 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,960 And they're, they're, you know, when and when we do that, we 596 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:33,040 become a little bit more whole and a little bit more authentic, 597 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,600 you know, and sort of like the Velveteen Rabbit, right? 598 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,600 Like we become real even if we're rubbed a little bit bare 599 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:45,040 in some places. Yeah, well, we met on Beth 600 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,120 Cybersyn's healing database. We had a meeting and that's 601 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,040 where I met you and you kind of did a short little quick 602 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,480 workshop with us. And I don't consider myself a 603 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,640 writer or that that really helps me. 604 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,240 But I was like that exercise that you did taking home and 605 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:05,280 taking each letter and like making a sentence. 606 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,760 I just found it on a sticky note the other day because I don't 607 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,960 know about you, but my desk, I have like a stack sticky note. 608 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:13,840 So like, I need to go through these. 609 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,520 And I was like, oh, that's a thing I wrote from your prompt, 610 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,200 you know, from when we met. And I was looking at it and I 611 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,840 was like, wow. I mean, I was like blown away by 612 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,640 what I wrote. Just in 5 minutes, you know, 613 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,640 I'll try and read it. So you take HOME and you write a 614 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,160 sentence. So I put home is me, myself and 615 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:44,400 I only. I am home, my only true 616 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,440 authentic refuge. Enter with compassion and 617 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,120 kindness. And I was like, wow, I wrote 618 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:53,880 that. And that, you know, I still 619 00:40:53,880 --> 00:41:00,000 think about when I look at that, just those one, you know, 4 620 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,680 lines, how deep I could go with each one. 621 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,000 And I think that's kind of what you were saying to do, you know, 622 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,800 now look at that one line and then go deeper with it and keep 623 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,280 writing. So just as such a simple 624 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,960 exercise and the more I look at it, the more I see the depth of 625 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,360 each each line that I wrote. So that was so cool for someone 626 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,080 who was is not really consider themselves a writer, you know, 627 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:30,440 So I just kind of wanted to share that with you, but kind of 628 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,160 come into an end here. Talk about your award-winning 629 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,760 solo show and Mothered and your migrating toward wholeness. 630 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,680 Work with adoptees. Yeah. 631 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:47,320 So Unmothered came out of my dissertation, I had the really 632 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,000 fortunate experience of going to a grad program that was really 633 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,560 interested in both creativity and social justice and making us 634 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,240 scholar practitioners so that we, you know, had the 635 00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:00,800 theoretical knowledge for whatever it was we were 636 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,200 exploring, but that we could do something with it out in the 637 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,480 world. And so, so both both these parts 638 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,280 of my work are connected to that. 639 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,200 So Unmothered. I originally wrote and performed 640 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,000 as part of my dissertation, which was Unmothered. 641 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,280 A story of adoption and patriarchy. 642 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,040 An auto ethnography. Auto ethnographic narrative. 643 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,880 I don't even know dissertation titles. 644 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,920 Right. Anyway, auto ethnography was the 645 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,120 research method, embodied performance was the other 646 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,160 research method, and it was really about using personal 647 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:42,400 storytelling and performance as vehicles for social change and 648 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,720 empathy building to get people to think differently about 649 00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:51,280 adoption by by putting myself into in in to conversation with 650 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,560 an audience through the lens of my story. 651 00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:00,200 And so unmothered is is a really deeply personal exploration of 652 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,840 all of my early write, not all of my early, but lots of my 653 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,400 early writing there. The, the, the show itself is 654 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,840 then I would say the narrative thread is really the poems. 655 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,880 That's kind of the narrative thread and the emotional glue 656 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,080 are all of these poems. Because I went back through my 657 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:24,360 poems and used them to create a sort of timeline and A and a, 658 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,800 you know, a map of different parts of my story. 659 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,320 And then I linked them together with with some narrative text 660 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,080 and it has evolved a little bit over time. 661 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,120 The original production was about an hour and a half long. 662 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,560 It was the story I needed to tell at the time. 663 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,760 And then I took a couple of years break because COVID and we 664 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,760 all did. And then I revised it and 665 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:56,560 restaged it with the help of my brilliant and beautiful partner, 666 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:02,320 Jeremy Sortor, who is just, you know, a really beautiful life 667 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,640 partner, but also a really beautiful creative partner. 668 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,120 And he, he helped me, he has helped me through the entire 669 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,240 process of, of, of staging it using Fitzmaur's voice work, 670 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,520 which is a trauma informed breath and body practice for 671 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,400 actors. And we used that as part of our 672 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:27,320 rehearsal process to work on the text and to figure out, you 673 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:32,200 know, the, the, the, the movement, you know, which is not 674 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,800 necessarily choreographed, but it is, you know, it is an 675 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,040 integral part of the, of the show. 676 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,920 And then we, you know, sort of looked at the the script again 677 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,920 ahead of going to the United Solo Theater Festival in at the 678 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:54,040 end of 2022 and did some judicious cutting and, you know, 679 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,720 rework the script a little bit to, to kind of organize the 680 00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:00,880 story in, in the way that it could be told now. 681 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:06,360 And I performed it at the end of 2022 at the United Solo Theatre 682 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,400 Festival in New York. And I won best autobiographical 683 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,160 show. And I'm super proud of that. 684 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:18,680 And since then, I have continued to perform it in various places. 685 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,760 I was part of Operation Fog Lift for a a short time and got to 686 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,400 perform it in New York City. Just recently performed it for 687 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:34,680 the adoptive and the Adoptive and Foster Family Coalition of 688 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:40,520 New York's annual conference. And that was a really, really 689 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:46,320 cool experience to be part of and just a powerful audience to 690 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,080 get in front of because there were so many adoptive parents 691 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,520 there who needed to see it, right? 692 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,080 Who needed to be able to wow what? 693 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:59,600 Was their feedback from them on? Yeah, they people were so many 694 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,480 people thanked me for doing what I do and for, for telling my 695 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,080 story in the way that I tell it, for helping them understand 696 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:15,280 their kids better. And, you know, and, and for the 697 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,280 adoptees that have seen it, there's, you know, like we 698 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,760 started this conversation right where you said you read the book 699 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,560 and you felt so validated. People that's that have seen my 700 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:30,760 my show tell me like, Oh my God, you just put words to all of the 701 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,240 things I have felt my whole life. 702 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,400 Now I can start to talk about them because you you said it 703 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,600 right. And that's the point of that, 704 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,320 right. And so like having the ability 705 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,440 and that's the the other superpower I have right words is 706 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:53,320 being able to find the words to to say the things right. 707 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,960 And, and it's because it was silenced for so long and I 708 00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:02,520 finally was like, you know what, F this, I have to get this out. 709 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,680 And because my, you know, undergraduate degree is in 710 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,840 theater and I have a background as a performer, It felt like a 711 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,240 really natural progression when I was thinking about what 712 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,200 ultimately my dissertation was going to be like, what am I 713 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:16,560 going to do? And I was like, oh, what if I 714 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:22,800 write a one woman show, you know, and I did and, and it has, 715 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,800 you know, it is, I'm so glad I did because it's, it's such an 716 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:33,960 important gift and tool. You know, it's a gift to other 717 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,520 adoptees who may not have the words to explain the things, 718 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,560 but, you know, for, for for us to be seen and heard and 719 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,520 validated to begin to tell the stories. 720 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,960 And, and you know, and that's also really where the the 721 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,600 migrating toward wholeness is, is the other outgrowth of all of 722 00:47:54,600 --> 00:48:00,480 that work is recognizing that I had been using writing for so 723 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,920 many years to manage all of these really intense emotions. 724 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,000 And then knowing that there was a whole field in which 725 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,840 therapeutic writing was is proven to have mental and 726 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:18,680 physical health benefits. Likewise, specifically poetry 727 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,760 can be really therapeutic. And so I started, you know, so 728 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,360 part of my dissertation work is connected to that as well. 729 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:32,960 But when I after I graduated, I was work, I had have been 730 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,440 connected with the right adoption Research Institute 731 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,040 since 2019 when I was part of their summer research program. 732 00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:43,400 And so I've and I've maintained that really wonderful 733 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,920 relationship. And they were doing a year long 734 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,680 virtual conference about adult adoptees and they were like, we 735 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,000 want you to be part of this because our other one got 736 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,840 cancelled. And I was supposed to have 737 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,880 performed an ex excerpt from Unmothered, but that didn't 738 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,360 happen. And we had to shift because of 739 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,120 online. And they were like, let's let's 740 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,120 have these conversations, let's talk about it. 741 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,600 And they were really interested in my writing and healing work. 742 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,040 They were like, we're really interested in this. 743 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,760 Can you do something with that? And I was like, yeah, sure. 744 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,280 And then it evolved into what is now, you know, what is now the 745 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,960 pilot of Migrating toward Wholeness, where I brought 746 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,920 together a group of 11 adult adoptees, all varying, you know, 747 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:32,480 if ages from 20s to 60s. And we spent seven weeks 748 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,840 together writing. And it was a very emergent 749 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,880 process. And I, you know, I didn't have 750 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,080 like, here's the series of prompts that we're going to use. 751 00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:47,800 I, I, I just kind of intuitively came into that space and decided 752 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,000 that it, it was going to be driven by the conversations that 753 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:56,680 we had and what was coming up from our personal stories. 754 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,160 And what, that seven weeks, you know, what unfolded in that 755 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:06,160 seven weeks was then the process that I have outlined in the 756 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,280 book. And then the final chapter of 757 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,360 the book actually goes into a little bit more depth about that 758 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,960 original group and, and sort of pays homage to those folks who 759 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:20,720 really laid the groundwork for the the work that I'm now 760 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,640 continuing to do using this process that that that they 761 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:30,040 trusted me to develop with them. That's awesome. 762 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,680 Wow. So in closing, what do you want 763 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:41,520 struggling adoptees to know? I want you to know that it gets 764 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:47,680 better and that there are there. There is help if you, if you, if 765 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,600 you look for it, you know that there are those of us out there 766 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,200 that are that are here to connect with you, to be life 767 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,280 lines. I want them to know that they 768 00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:01,280 can reach out to me at any time. I, I, I would tell people I 769 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,880 think of me as a resource and a, and a, and a connection point. 770 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,240 I people e-mail me all the time and they're like, hey, and then, 771 00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:11,680 you know, we either have these long e-mail conversations or we 772 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,040 get on Zoom and they're like, can we connect, you know? 773 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:18,840 And, and yeah. And I, I want adoptees to know 774 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:25,160 that wherever you are, it's OK. And that if you're feeling 775 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:31,320 really lost or really confused or like there isn't any hope, 776 00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,480 please reach out. Yeah. 777 00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,600 Because there's lots of us here in this community that are here 778 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:44,120 to to hold you. Yeah, well, just like you were 779 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:48,360 saying with the writing and the acting, when you were in the 780 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,760 depths of, you know, whatever you were going through as a 781 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,400 teenager, you know, just trying to survive, those things helped 782 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,080 you. And then those became your 783 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,880 superpowers and helped you develop what you're doing today 784 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:07,200 and finding so much joy in doing and sharing with all of us. 785 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:12,400 So I just want to thank you for coming on the show today, Liz. 786 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:16,280 And where can we find you in your book and whatever you're up 787 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,640 to next? Yeah, easiest way to find me and 788 00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,360 what's going on next is my website, which is super easy, 789 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,480 Liz debeta.com. You can also find me on Facebook 790 00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:35,440 Doctor Liz Debeta is my page or Instagram Doctor Liz dot Debeta. 791 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,080 OK, well, all of that will be in the show notes, so if anyone 792 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:44,040 wants to get in touch with Liz, look there for that. 793 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,480 And listeners, just thanks for joining us today. 794 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,800 As always, take what you need and leave what you don't. 795 00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,200 And always remember to mind your own karma and I will see you 796 00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,840 next time. This podcast is created for 797 00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,320 educational purposes by the telling of adoption experiences. 798 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,000 The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the 799 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,560 host or Mind Your Own Karma.