1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,100 Hey there. It's Melissa. 2 00:00:01,100 --> 00:00:04,700 Brunetti and welcome to the mind your own Karma podcast. 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,300 Hey, their karma crew. Thanks for joining me for 4 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:20,200 another episode of mind. Your own Karma, the adoption 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,100 Chronicles. Where we are educating the world 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,600 one story at a time. And today, I have Greg Gentry on 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,800 the show. You may know him if you are out 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,500 and about in the Facebook adoptee groups, I am honored to 9 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:36,700 have him on the show today and let me tell you a little bit 10 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:40,100 more about Greg. He was born in California in 11 00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:44,200 1969 and placed in. A closed adoption as an infant 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,700 after spending six weeks and foster care, which was a common 13 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:51,700 practice with baby scoop era. Adoptions growing up, he sensed 14 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:54,900 a certain ill fit with his family and found out about his 15 00:00:54,900 --> 00:00:57,000 adoption when he was 10 years old. 16 00:00:57,300 --> 00:01:02,400 In 2006 at age, 37, he finally discovered and made contact with 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,700 his biological maternal side and has experienced all the 18 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:11,000 attendant ups and downs that so often accompany reunions, he was 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,600 able to connect with his Eternal family and late 20, 21. 20 00:01:14,900 --> 00:01:18,400 And is currently navigating the landscape and complexities of 21 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,900 those newly emerging relationships, since coming out 22 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:26,100 of the fog in 2021, Greg has been an active member of the 23 00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:29,500 online and in-person adoptee communities. 24 00:01:29,700 --> 00:01:34,700 Here is Greg Gentry's story. So, we're welcoming Craig Gentry 25 00:01:34,700 --> 00:01:36,300 to the show today. Hi Greg. 26 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:38,100 Hi, Melissa. Thanks for having me. 27 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:40,800 Yeah. So let's just jump right in. 28 00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:44,500 Why don't you tell Tell us what, you know about your adoption 29 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:47,100 story. Yeah, that's a good question. 30 00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:50,300 So I will start out by saying growing up. 31 00:01:50,300 --> 00:01:53,800 I knew basically nothing about it and was never really talked 32 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,200 to about it. So anything I found out was 33 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:02,100 found out in pretty much around my mid-30s. 34 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:07,800 I didn't have any any clue about where I might have come from, I 35 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,000 didn't have any information, I don't have any names and no 36 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,900 discussion. My adoptive parents until I 37 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:16,500 secure the services of a private investigator. 38 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:21,100 When I was, yeah, I guess it was 36 or 37 at the time and so, I 39 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:24,200 literally found out everything about my birth mother's side all 40 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,600 at once. Pretty much in an information 41 00:02:26,700 --> 00:02:28,700 that call it a dump, but it wasn't a huge amount of 42 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:30,100 information. But when you haven't seen 43 00:02:30,100 --> 00:02:33,100 anything at all up to that point, it feels like a dump. 44 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:36,300 Is it was an email that suddenly here's what we have found out 45 00:02:36,300 --> 00:02:38,900 and it was information on where she lived. 46 00:02:38,900 --> 00:02:41,600 It was mentioned that I had grandparents that were still 47 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,400 living. Which was a shock to me because 48 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,300 I was 37 at the time. I knew she was very young when I 49 00:02:47,308 --> 00:02:49,900 found that out. And it had, really no 50 00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:52,600 information about my father, other than his place of birth. 51 00:02:52,700 --> 00:02:55,700 It was a local. What year did you hire? 52 00:02:55,700 --> 00:02:58,500 These detectives are investigator 2006. 53 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Okay, yeah. So and I had wanted for about a 54 00:03:03,008 --> 00:03:04,600 year. I think to look into it. 55 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,000 Seriously. I considered it off and on a few 56 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,000 times in adulthood, but I kept kind of talking myself out of it 57 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,400 like you shouldn't really have Worried about that or you don't 58 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,700 really want to know. And that was really more of, I 59 00:03:16,700 --> 00:03:19,400 think my parents narratives than anything currently. 60 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,000 So since there were no discussions about it, openly 61 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,300 growing up and the few times I did bring it up, I got kind of 62 00:03:26,300 --> 00:03:30,100 an emotional response cheerful response from my mom. 63 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,100 So I kind of came to feel like this isn't something we talk 64 00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:38,800 about so I didn't and I talked myself out of it and even with 65 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,600 tell people, I'm not interested in finding out, but I was 66 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:42,500 interested. Stood. 67 00:03:42,700 --> 00:03:46,500 Yeah, I just need to seriously engage in doing it until I was 68 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,600 yeah mid to late 30s. So you are on unraveling 69 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,500 adoption with that's Iverson recently. 70 00:03:52,500 --> 00:03:55,100 And you had mentioned that in the baby scoop era. 71 00:03:55,100 --> 00:03:58,200 Many adoptees were put in foster care to see if they had any 72 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,100 problems before placement. I had never heard that before 73 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:03,500 and I know I was placed in foster care. 74 00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:06,900 Yeah. And I had health issues but they 75 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:09,400 never revealed that to My adoptive parents. 76 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,100 So can you talk about that a little bit? 77 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:14,400 I didn't know that was like I think I found that out somewhere 78 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,700 online and I heard it in a couple different places and it 79 00:04:17,700 --> 00:04:24,300 basically was like a test run kind of how the baby the infant 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,600 before they go to where they'll be placed. 81 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:30,000 What is it going to be like? What might they manifest in the 82 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,400 first several weeks? And so they were placed say they 83 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,500 like it's someone else but yeah, placed into foster care for a 84 00:04:37,508 --> 00:04:40,800 number of weeks or days. For me, I originally had thought 85 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,800 it was about three months. Is it turned out to be about six 86 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,800 weeks? I adopted mom finally told me 87 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,600 have no details about what it was like, who they were. 88 00:04:48,700 --> 00:04:51,400 I'm not even sure they know barely and it was just kind of 89 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,700 weigh station or stopping point. But when I read more recently, 90 00:04:55,700 --> 00:04:58,700 that the intention of it was to see what was going to manifest 91 00:04:58,700 --> 00:05:01,000 in the child, that was being relinquished or had been 92 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,000 relinquished to that point, and it was kind of sobering because 93 00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:07,300 it made you think what, what exactly did they think they were 94 00:05:07,300 --> 00:05:10,700 going to observe, right? So kind of like I do want to say 95 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:13,800 Lab Rats but I mean That's kind of what it sounds like. 96 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,200 Are you going to be okay enough to go through with this store? 97 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:17,700 Yeah. And then, what if they, if I 98 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:20,500 wasn't exactly what if you weren't then? 99 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:21,500 What we're would. Yeah. 100 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:24,300 Where would you go then? At that point you go to some, I 101 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:26,300 don't know. The more distressing thing I 102 00:05:26,308 --> 00:05:30,100 have found out about that was the tendency was for foster 103 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:33,200 parents in that are not to really be encouraged to bond it 104 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,000 all with the child. So I had assumed, okay, six 105 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,400 weeks that's awful. Maybe it's better than three 106 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,300 months. Least, I was being held and all 107 00:05:41,308 --> 00:05:43,900 these things. And then I found out that they 108 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:48,300 were not encouraged for a whole lot of contact and a lot of wow, 109 00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:51,100 because they were being told not to bond also because the child 110 00:05:51,100 --> 00:05:53,800 was going somewhere else. So now I have absolutely no idea 111 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,200 what the standard of care might be an interesting interview to 112 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:03,000 interview, foster parent back in the late 60s, really would be 113 00:06:03,100 --> 00:06:06,300 just to see what they were told, you know, really would because I 114 00:06:06,308 --> 00:06:11,300 know, I was in foster care for 10 weeks, but I was told that it 115 00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:14,800 was because Is my mom was trying to figure out a way to keep me 116 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,000 and so she kept putting off signing which she didn't sign 117 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,500 until like a week or two before I was placed. 118 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:22,500 So that was partially true. But yeah. 119 00:06:22,900 --> 00:06:25,600 Yeah interesting I had not heard that before. 120 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,500 Yeah, I'm trying to remember where exactly, I saw it go back 121 00:06:28,500 --> 00:06:30,700 and look at the look, it up a couple places where I might have 122 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:33,300 seen that and then let you know for sure it would be interesting 123 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:36,200 to hear somebody from that era, who was a foster parent, what 124 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,900 was it like were you encouraged to do or not to do? 125 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:42,100 Yeah. So, how was your experience 126 00:06:42,100 --> 00:06:44,400 growing up? I mean, were you ever told you 127 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,600 were adopted? Do you remember being told? 128 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,300 Did you have any feelings around? 129 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,400 Finding out? I guess they had told me never 130 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:58,400 found out when they told me, but I found out consciously, when I 131 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,400 was 10 when I asked and then was told ya, we did have this 132 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,000 discussion with you, when you were younger that I never found 133 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,300 out when younger or what? My response was at the time. 134 00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:09,900 But clearly I either couldn't process it. 135 00:07:10,100 --> 00:07:13,800 Or didn't, or it was traumatizing itself at the time 136 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,500 or I no idea what it meant. Because, right, it seems to have 137 00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:21,400 bumped around in my head for a number of years until in a 138 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,800 friend, helped me realize. It's there was a reason you it 139 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,100 precipitated in you, suddenly he saw something on TV and it 140 00:07:27,100 --> 00:07:29,000 triggered you. And he said, was I adopted tomb? 141 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,900 That was what I asked my mom. She's been. 142 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:33,400 Yes. And my friend said, the only 143 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,800 reason that was in your head in the first place, it's probably 144 00:07:37,900 --> 00:07:39,400 some party remembered this prior. 145 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,400 And where maybe they did tell you about that and you just 146 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,000 weren't at a place where you can understand what that meant or 147 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,500 why that was significant and suddenly I was confronted with 148 00:07:48,500 --> 00:07:50,500 it on this episode of My Three Sons. 149 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,300 I remember the anxiety around it. 150 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,000 Wow suddenly I just yelled out mom was I adopted I think I 151 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,900 asked it. As I wasn't adopted was I one of 152 00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:02,900 these - type questions about you know? 153 00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:04,400 Yeah. Wow. 154 00:08:04,500 --> 00:08:08,300 The answer was. Yes, he must have felt different 155 00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:13,000 or an inkling that nothing was. Yeah, and I've thought a lot 156 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,100 about that to what was it like, you asked? 157 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:18,600 And so, even though I didn't have this clear sense of it 158 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,800 until I asked at age 10. So I like I say I found out at 159 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,000 10:00 maybe I was told earlier. Yeah, but that's when it became 160 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,300 something conscious to me and it was earth-shattering but life 161 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:33,299 growing up, it always been. We always got along really well 162 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,400 and I never have felt anything but love and acceptance for my 163 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:41,700 family doesn't mean I felt like I naturally Really was a fit 164 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:45,200 though and I didn't always know why they were very industrious 165 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,600 people. They were always Off cleaning 166 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,200 the yard doing all these physical things, making stuff 167 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,200 and I was, I wasn't as into that and I interpreted that as being 168 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,000 lazy and I think they interpreted that as being lazy 169 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,500 or some people would say, oh, you were just a kid that's true. 170 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:06,100 But my sister was also just a kid and she was a very hard 171 00:09:06,100 --> 00:09:07,900 worker. There was a difference in our 172 00:09:07,900 --> 00:09:09,900 personalities. I didn't know where it came 173 00:09:09,900 --> 00:09:10,500 from. From. 174 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,100 I remember fantasizing that I had different siblings than the 175 00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:17,900 ones, I grew up with which is kind of weird before you even 176 00:09:17,900 --> 00:09:20,100 remember that years ago right around that time. 177 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:22,900 Yeah maybe I was 7 or 8 and I was starting to think about 178 00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:24,800 that. Certainly by the time I found 179 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,100 out I almost imagined what would it be like actually to be 180 00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:31,900 related to my siblings. So you had a sister just a 181 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:35,100 sister or do you have more siblings and where they adopted 182 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:39,700 or I have two older adoptive sisters, who are my parents? 183 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,900 Tickle daughters and neither. One of them are obviously adopt. 184 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,800 We didn't have it conversations about it. 185 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:48,400 So you are the only one that was adopted. 186 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:49,300 Yeah. In the family. 187 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:52,100 I was the only one was because they wanted a boy, or how did 188 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:54,400 that. Yeah. 189 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,600 But he bluntly. It was a boy. 190 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,600 How did you get along with your sisters growing up? 191 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,100 And now very well. In fact, overall not even does 192 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:07,900 over almost entirely. My life was one of being very 193 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:13,400 agreeable and compliant. Aunt and never in the way ever. 194 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,000 Talk you back. Never getting in fights even 195 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,900 when they would fight the sisters with each other. 196 00:10:18,900 --> 00:10:23,200 I wouldn't fight nobody yelled. They would yell because they 197 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:29,700 were, they were Rivals. Yeah, but I was very gentle and 198 00:10:29,900 --> 00:10:34,600 Inward and I feel like there were big manifestations of the 199 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,100 just the difference in temperament between all of us. 200 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,900 But I felt growing up that I Is exceptionally Meek will say, 201 00:10:43,700 --> 00:10:46,900 even in school, I did have friends, I had to buy a plenty 202 00:10:46,900 --> 00:10:49,900 of friends, I wasn't, I mean, I was painfully shy but I still 203 00:10:49,900 --> 00:10:55,300 connected with people and I've always even in adulthood in this 204 00:10:55,300 --> 00:11:00,600 kind of conciliatory and Mild sort of person and it was 205 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,700 confusing to me why I would be so much. 206 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:05,400 That way growing up. When I was like, in junior high, 207 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,500 I remember being like I wouldn't stand up for myself or anything. 208 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:11,500 I'm sure I would probably Let someone pound me into the dirt 209 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:14,300 and not even raise a hand. I didn't know why I would be 210 00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:16,500 that way. Yeah, I had super low 211 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:19,400 self-esteem. I remember growing up and I was 212 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,800 super quiet and just wanted to blend into the background and 213 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,600 not be seen. Yeah, very much so and 214 00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:28,800 definitely never made waves anywhere. 215 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,500 Look, I was never restricted or anything. 216 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:33,300 I didn't have any rebellious stage, I kind of view that now 217 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:36,400 is sort of unnatural, but I realized it was, it was 218 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,700 symptomatic of being a compliant adoptee. 219 00:11:39,700 --> 00:11:42,200 Yeah, That's what it was even though I didn't know where any 220 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,000 of that came from. It's time for why I would be 221 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,900 that way. It was just the plane out of 222 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,400 kind of a primal Terror that I carried. 223 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:52,000 She was that I have to get along. 224 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,200 I have to get along. I have to go along. 225 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,600 What do I do to get along? And so, I did, I got along 226 00:11:56,900 --> 00:12:02,500 flawlessly with everybody in my life, and I still mostly do 227 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,900 people even now and some of that can be an agreeable thing in my 228 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:07,800 personality. And some of that I'm aware of is 229 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,100 being really soft and kind. Kind of like wish I had the 230 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:15,300 ability to be more assertive. Sometimes this doesn't come very 231 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:17,600 naturally for me. Instead. 232 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:22,400 What comes out is being this way of being really agreeable with 233 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,000 the people? And yes, there was a lot of 234 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,600 people pleasing in it, for sure. Which I know is not not ideal 235 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,100 but it's not uncommon either. Yeah, it's this get along thing 236 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:35,400 and I had a hard time, I had a hard time forming my own 237 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,200 opinions and thinking I knew what was going on. 238 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:43,000 And so there was a lot of inward confusion on my part about how 239 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,600 do I, how do I arrived it? A what I think of things and it 240 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,300 took me a most of my life to realize I can have a voice to 241 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,300 let me in the past couple of years. 242 00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:56,100 I really didn't know where that that could be the case looking 243 00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:59,200 Do you see any habits or tendencies that growing up and 244 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,700 even into adulthood that you could most likely linked back to 245 00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:09,000 being adopted? Staying out of the way for me 246 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:15,000 which is stayed with me. And I called that somewhere else 247 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,300 I called that being a zero footprint adoptee and I also 248 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,900 gave the example of it happens. Even at like at a grocery store 249 00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:25,400 I will steer clear. Anybody who'd even think they 250 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,400 want to look right where I am. I'm out of the way. 251 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,600 I will never be in the way of anybody. 252 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,600 Any place. I will never insert myself front 253 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,000 of somebody. How about in your relationships, 254 00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:38,500 With clothes, you know? Yeah. 255 00:13:40,300 --> 00:13:43,900 I found that let's say in my what I call my vital 256 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:47,200 relationships with my wife at the time and my kids. 257 00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:54,000 As I got older, I started to manifest these kind of reactions 258 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:55,500 that I didn't know where they came from either. 259 00:13:56,100 --> 00:14:00,700 They were either from the result of being really depressed, or 260 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:04,000 not understanding where bursts of anger would come from wanting 261 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,700 to run away getting in the car and driving off. 262 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:09,200 It was the flight response, activated and me and I kept 263 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,600 doing it. I didn't ever know why it was 264 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,900 there. And so what happened was put a 265 00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:19,000 lot of stress on my relationships because comes 266 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,900 across is as being reactive. Yeah. 267 00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:27,500 And it was, it was a reactive way to be and I couldn't every 268 00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:29,900 time I tried to address it, whether it was in a therapy 269 00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:33,400 session or doing self work, I didn't get very far with it. 270 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,000 So it was never really addressing what was going on. 271 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,800 I was just kind of trying to trying to make up for what I 272 00:14:39,808 --> 00:14:42,300 felt were deficiencies and how I was. 273 00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:44,000 So when you would Feel those things. 274 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,600 Did you feel like you were justified in your feelings? 275 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,300 Or were you feeling like, why am I feeling this? 276 00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:51,900 Or why is this happening? I felt terrible. 277 00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:54,200 I still feel that because I can still do that. 278 00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:57,800 I still can run away sometimes. Yeah, and I feel a lot of Shame 279 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,400 over that because anyone who's been in an activated state knows 280 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,200 what happens, what your nervous system feels like suddenly, 281 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,100 you're sort of compelled to go in a certain direction that you 282 00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:09,100 thought I didn't expect to be going this way. 283 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:10,600 Again, why am I doing this again? 284 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:12,600 What did I just do? Yeah. 285 00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:16,600 So that that can be really harmful in relationships for 286 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,100 sure. And the other part of it is it 287 00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:23,200 can lead to feeling like you have to keep elements of 288 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,900 yourself to yourself because you're afraid. 289 00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:29,300 People might try to remove things from you that you really 290 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,300 need to hold on to. So I had manifestations of that 291 00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:37,200 at times and that's not the healthiest thing either but I 292 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,600 didn't realize where things came from. 293 00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:43,000 Yeah, I finally figured out but I kind of unfortunately. 294 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,900 Get out too late to save some of the most important relationships 295 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:50,700 in my life at that point. Yeah, I was call that collateral 296 00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:54,100 damage. Yeah, let's talk about reunions 297 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:56,600 for a minute. I know yours has had its ups and 298 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,500 downs and so can you tell us how you found your biological 299 00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:02,800 family, how it went and where it's at now? 300 00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:08,700 Since 2006, I've been in reunions with my maternal side 301 00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:12,700 and that again was the result of getting the information from the 302 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:16,000 private investigator. Met my mother person for the 303 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,900 first time in 2007, we had talked for about a year before 304 00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:24,200 that and we had all of the trepidation, all of the 305 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,900 approaching each other really cautiously and then we went into 306 00:16:28,900 --> 00:16:31,200 it, really strongly. And we exchanged hundreds of 307 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,500 emails, text messages, Just just this whole who would we were 308 00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:41,000 getting to know each other and we also were insecure about it 309 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,200 and thought, okay? Maybe maybe when we finally meet 310 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,000 what is it going to be like, we had every reason to believe it 311 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,200 was going to be really wonderful and it was when we connect it in 312 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,300 person and my family was there, my wife and my kids were there 313 00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:56,800 at the time as well. They got to meet her to meet my 314 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,400 aunt, and my sister and my grandmother. 315 00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:04,099 So it was it was a really nice time and when you mention it It 316 00:17:04,108 --> 00:17:05,900 going up and down, it really did. 317 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:10,400 There were a few times, it went really badly, really wrong and 318 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,800 Brought up a lot of distress and each of us. 319 00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:20,400 And a lot of behaviors toward each other that were toxic. 320 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:23,599 It was no way to navigate it in terms of we weren't equipped for 321 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:25,900 it as I guess, what? I'm, yeah, I wasn't any manual 322 00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:31,100 on how to do it, so it went up and down in and out, and at 323 00:17:31,100 --> 00:17:35,000 times, it got really bad and at times it would sail along and be 324 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,700 wonderful. And it went on like that back 325 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:42,600 and forth for for several years. And then, finally, in 2021, it 326 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,500 kind of broke down towards our time. 327 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:47,800 When we were moving to Florida from Massachusetts and it hasn't 328 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,500 really been restored with her since then. 329 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:53,500 But I've maintained that relationship with my sister. 330 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,800 That's my half brother from from her side and also with her 331 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,100 husband. So I stay in contact with them. 332 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,400 I had one chance to meet my uncle in person on her side and 333 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,200 one of my cousin's, a couple of my cousins and have not had any 334 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,500 real contact with them since then, which I felt as yearning 335 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:12,100 for. Like, I really wanted to do that 336 00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:13,700 and to be more a part of their lives. 337 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:16,900 Somehow, if I can manage to do that, But the couple times that 338 00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:20,200 I've tried I haven't just been kind of mild polite interest, 339 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:21,700 maybe though that's you. Okay. 340 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,400 But not a lot of. Yeah. 341 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,200 Oh I'd like to know you or let's talk. 342 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,200 There hasn't been anything like that coming out of it. 343 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:30,600 So what do you think went wrong with your mom? 344 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:35,400 Like was it unmet expectations or it was definitely it was 345 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,000 partly that she had a fantasy idea of what reunions would be 346 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,400 like. Hmm. 347 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:44,800 And sometimes it was that way in other times, it's felt and not 348 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,800 as well received by People in my family, and it made her very, 349 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,800 very uncomfortable and insecure. So she would react, which made 350 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,400 me react to drove us apart. It would take a while to restore 351 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,400 that. I think she's always struggled 352 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:04,100 with feeling worthy of being in my life and as felt like the 353 00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:06,900 other people in my life, maybe hadn't given her all the room 354 00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:10,700 she had, she had wanted. So the expectation kind of been 355 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:13,500 that we would just sail off wonderfully. 356 00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:15,800 It always be really close seamlessly. 357 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,000 Yeah, I had that too, right? I had this fantasy in my mind. 358 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,200 Oh, I'll move to Texas and I'll live in the house. 359 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,600 Three Doors Down from then and we'll see each other hundreds of 360 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:24,700 times. It'll be great. 361 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,600 Yeah. And it was hard to disabuse 362 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,300 myself of that but I think it a largely did have to do with 363 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,200 expectation. I think it had to do with 364 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:39,100 communication which I sometimes can struggle with yeah, being 365 00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:42,400 the neuro-diverse person but also somebody who's insecure. 366 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,900 I don't always have the clearest communication with people and 367 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,300 And even though I can talk to a roomful of people sometimes 368 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,100 interpersonally, it's tough. And there were times that 369 00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:57,600 manifested to and I think the whole thing overall, just led to 370 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,500 the collapse of the reunions, unfortunately between us So you 371 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:06,900 met a brother recently? Yeah so I how did that go was 372 00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:08,600 that the first time you had met him? 373 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,800 I was first time meeting him in terms of my father's side 374 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,200 because he was on my father's side. 375 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,900 I hadn't connected with them until late 2021. 376 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,200 And so the space the number of years between the reunions with 377 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,300 my birth mother and finally connecting with my late father's 378 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:29,400 family was about 14 years and it took that long because I had 379 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,400 carried Impressions from what I'd heard. 380 00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,900 Heard from her. And this thought that maybe he 381 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:37,000 didn't really want me. Now, he had passed away in 1988 382 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,400 so I never had any chance to wow. 383 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,600 So, how old was he? When he passed 33? 384 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,400 Wow. Yeah, I had thought, well, he 385 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,700 was young, but what I found out, I couldn't find any details 386 00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:52,300 about it just that you died in San Diego 1988 when I would have 387 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:56,700 been 19 and I thought, well, let me look around a little bit. 388 00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:59,300 I wasn't any good at searching, I don't know how to do it. 389 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:04,300 I couldn't find anything. But it turned out that while I 390 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,100 was thinking all I was probably his only child. 391 00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:10,000 He actually it had five more Sons. 392 00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:14,900 Wow, none of them knew about me. That was, oh my god. 393 00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:17,800 Do you know about you? What was that? 394 00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:20,100 Did he know, did you yes? Okay. 395 00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:23,300 Yeah, he knew he was 16. When I was born. 396 00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:25,200 Mmm. Yeah, he remembered. 397 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,000 And, as I've talked to members in his family, I'd say that 398 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,400 sounds strange because they were members. 399 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:35,000 My family, they would say things like, I remember your birth 400 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,100 mother come into our house with her parents. 401 00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:41,500 The day, that that discussion took place was going to happen 402 00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:43,400 with you. She was pregnant with you. 403 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,800 I thought boy, that's really weird in heavy to hear something 404 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,600 like that. So do you know what happened? 405 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,700 During that discussion? Did they reveal? 406 00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:53,900 And I don't know, I do know the one thing which is it my 407 00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:57,700 mother's side? One of her brothers had wanted 408 00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:02,500 to adopt me to keep the family and either he was too young or 409 00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:06,400 something was determined to be unreasonable about that. 410 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,500 Yeah. And he didn't happen, I don't 411 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:13,300 know much about this deliberation that would have 412 00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:16,400 taken place but I do know that it was obviously the I think the 413 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,200 grandparents my grandparents who were the deciding factor there 414 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,900 on my mother's side, that's part of the know they're both still 415 00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:27,500 alive. Other side, they both passed one 416 00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:29,100 of them. I'd always thought was my 417 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:32,400 grandfather was part of this decision on my father's side and 418 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,400 turns out he had actually passed away in 1968 year before. 419 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,500 I was born, I was another man, she was married to when I was 420 00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:40,900 relinquished. So he actually had something to 421 00:22:40,908 --> 00:22:44,500 do with the decision of where which was weird to realize that 422 00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:47,100 because I'd always thought it was my grandfather and it wasn't 423 00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:49,300 him. So what advice would you give 424 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:51,400 somebody that's thinking about reuniting? 425 00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:57,400 I would always tell somebody who wants to do it that they should 426 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,500 do it, if that's what they really want to do. 427 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:03,300 I'm not a naysayer about reunions. 428 00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:05,600 I don't counsel anybody to stay away from it. 429 00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:09,000 I will certainly let people know that it's complex. 430 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,800 Its Dynamic and it's gut-wrenching, and if you 431 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,400 thought it was hard enough, growing up as an adoptee, wait 432 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,800 till you put your natural family into it. 433 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,100 And then the Collision of all these elements is Is just, 434 00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:25,600 there's just no way to be fully prepared for what that'll be 435 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,600 like, you just can't imagine it. So you're actually in it and 436 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,700 experiencing it and of course, it's different for every single 437 00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:35,000 one of us. So I would say that I encourage 438 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,900 people to go ahead with it because there there may be other 439 00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:40,600 more than one reason they want to do it, right. 440 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,600 Some people do want to do this for medical data and things like 441 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,200 this. I kind of talked myself about 442 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,600 that a little bit and I realized no I really do want to form 443 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,500 relationships with people that I think, is where People tend to 444 00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:56,400 give more advice and say don't have expectations. 445 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,300 Don't this and don't that I'm not somebody that advises people 446 00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:03,200 not to have expectations because I'm not able to do that for 447 00:24:03,208 --> 00:24:08,000 myself, to say, I just won't have expectations that I can't 448 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,500 do that. I always have expectations. 449 00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:13,500 I'm going to be honest about it so I couldn't really Council 450 00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:16,000 somebody else. Not to, when I'm not able to do 451 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,900 that, I would just say though to be aware that you'll need a lot 452 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:21,900 of support from people who understand what this experience 453 00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:24,200 is like. So yeah, do what you can to be 454 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,100 connected with people, who've gone through it, which means you 455 00:24:27,108 --> 00:24:29,200 do have to talk to other adoptees. 456 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,300 If you've never done that. Hmm, you won't be able to find 457 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:35,200 out through reading a book, what it's going to be like and you 458 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,500 even forgot what it was like for them. 459 00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:40,100 Sure. But you'll need the support 460 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,300 people because there will be probably times it goes off the 461 00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:45,600 rails, like it did for me of the other times. 462 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,100 It's just soaring the stratosphere and don't think 463 00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:52,200 it's the most amazing thing ever or or anything in between. 464 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,300 Or it may never get off the ground at all. 465 00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:56,500 And that's its own particular type of grief. 466 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,200 That's the give about these expectations so hard, not to 467 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:00,900 have them. I just don't know how you can 468 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,500 not have them. And there are doors slam. 469 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:08,100 There are so many things, but if you can find support from people 470 00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:11,100 in person, support is great. There's a way to do it to meet 471 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:14,700 these people if not. Mhm, there are some great online 472 00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:17,400 resources here for people, but I think it's just important to 473 00:25:17,408 --> 00:25:21,400 talk to people that know what that experience is like and who 474 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,600 can console you. And things might get really 475 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,500 hard. Yeah, I think you know a couple 476 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:28,400 of the key things is communication like you were 477 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,600 saying feeling like you can communicate with them. 478 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,500 I felt like I couldn't you know really tell my birth mother, you 479 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:38,100 know how I was feeling. In fact, she would kind of go 480 00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:41,200 behind my back and talk to my husband at the time and be like 481 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:42,800 why is she doing this? Why is she? 482 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,700 You know, and I was like oh I feel like I'm being normal like 483 00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:52,300 this is me sorry yes. Sorry it was very uncomfortable. 484 00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:54,800 Durable. But, but I felt like I couldn't 485 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,000 be truthful with her and say some things as well, things 486 00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,900 back. Yeah, yeah, I have a thing. 487 00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:05,500 I had didn't think about was after reunions then what's going 488 00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:07,700 to happen? That's the other thing is kind 489 00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:10,500 of in your mind, kind of thinking like is this person 490 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:13,200 going to be in your life? If possible, all those type of 491 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,800 things? Like I didn't even know I was 492 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,600 like, okay what are my kids going to call her? 493 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,200 They have a grandma and grandpa you know, what are we going to? 494 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,300 How are you going to fit? Very confused. 495 00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,900 That's really hard. And yeah, because we tend to 496 00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:29,900 think of families in these ways suddenly you have more family 497 00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:31,600 but they're a different kind of family. 498 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,900 They're just like their indispensable or Dare 499 00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:36,700 dispensable. Hmm. 500 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,600 You don't want to get rid of a kind of a fit. 501 00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:42,100 Well my siblings that was easy like you can have five thousand 502 00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:44,500 brothers and sisters you know that's easy. 503 00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:47,900 But as far as the parent role you know it was just kind of 504 00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:50,800 like whoa, I didn't think about this at all. 505 00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:52,300 It's like hitting the brick wall. 506 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,900 All, I found that with my told My adoptive parents about 507 00:26:55,900 --> 00:27:00,600 finding her boy that was uncomfortable and I became the 508 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,900 person in the room that had to reassure them that I love them. 509 00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:07,000 And, you know, you know, the story goes I was yeah I remember 510 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,400 that very clearly because my birth mother wanted me to have 511 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,100 that conversation with them in order to continue our 512 00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:14,600 relationship. So I have really kind of had no 513 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,100 choice but to tell them and I did and it was very painful for 514 00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:22,400 them but You put me in a position. 515 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,800 I don't think adoptees should fairly have to be in that 516 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,100 position. Yeah, it's okay. 517 00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:30,600 I still love you that's hard. And yeah, because we know we 518 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,800 know what this role of this burden and gratitude that we 519 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,800 have we're not supposed to be there to assure a reassure, our 520 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,000 parents of their importance. That's that's kind of what put 521 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,900 us in this situation to begin with. 522 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,700 Yeah, for a lot of us anyway, was we were building a family 523 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:50,600 for somebody who was in a state of loss because they couldn't do 524 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,400 it. It and now they're going to feel 525 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,200 all this insecurity and suddenly you have to step into the role 526 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,000 of tell him, it's okay. Yeah. 527 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,000 I still think of you this way and it's really not fair for us 528 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,000 to be in that situation. So your birth mother basically 529 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,400 forced you to tell your adoptive parents. 530 00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:08,900 Otherwise she wasn't going to have a relationship with you 531 00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:11,800 that? Yes that's true. 532 00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:16,600 Wow that was she didn't do it on kindly but when I think about it 533 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,000 now she didn't ask me whether I wanted to do it or not. 534 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:22,000 It was just You really need to do this. 535 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,200 Otherwise I don't feel comfortable continuing this by 536 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,600 thinking. Now I would have probably had a 537 00:28:28,608 --> 00:28:30,600 different conversation with her about it. 538 00:28:31,300 --> 00:28:35,000 Yeah. But I also it's this Incognito 539 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,600 thing adoptees, too late. I don't want anybody my family 540 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,200 to know I'm doing this. Yeah, which I hate, but I did 541 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:40,900 it. I know. 542 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,500 So, I wish nobody did. But I know many of us are trying 543 00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:49,500 not to hurt anyone, but at the same time, trying to and get 544 00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,700 answers and be true. To yourself too. 545 00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:55,300 And it's so difficult to juggle all of that, you put yourself in 546 00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:57,200 the back seat or in the farthest away. 547 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,000 Roll and go, I'll put all of them upfront. 548 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,400 She wants me to tell them. I'll tell them. 549 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:01,700 They want to know, they're still important. 550 00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:05,300 I'll tell them I'll sit in the back and see what happens and so 551 00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:08,100 that's how that went. So you're involved in a lot of 552 00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:10,400 adoptee groups. What made you seek out these 553 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,200 groups in the first place? And what did you find there that 554 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,500 helped you? I found them through Facebook 555 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,700 which was a brand new thing for me back in. 321. 556 00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,000 I originally had joined to look up some things that my wife said 557 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,500 were important to my daughter and I thought to look up the 558 00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:32,600 top, these groups didn't know what I would find is I've never 559 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,000 really talked to adopted people before he even though I'd grown 560 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,500 up with. So and suddenly, I was in this 561 00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:41,100 really big group of people and they were talking about all 562 00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:43,800 these things and I was looking at it reading all of this stuff 563 00:29:44,300 --> 00:29:45,200 and thinking. What's that? 564 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:46,300 What's that? What's that? 565 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,500 And within a very short amount of time, it led to me coming out 566 00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:55,400 of the fog kind of dramatically within weeks of being in this 567 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,000 platform at all in the adoptee community. 568 00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:02,600 And once I hit that point, I thought these connections I'm 569 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,200 making that they were just really fledgling connections 570 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,100 than I had no idea. Anyone was I had no idea who I 571 00:30:09,108 --> 00:30:14,100 was. I decided to join a couple more 572 00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:16,500 in one of them was farsighted up, please. 573 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,800 We're friend, invited me into that group and it was still a 574 00:30:19,808 --> 00:30:24,700 small group at the time about 3035 people, maybe it it just 575 00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:27,100 started. Yeah, about a month of joining 576 00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:30,600 it was a whole different experience for me to do this 577 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,000 sort of thing, but looking at you on a zoom screen and that's 578 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,800 what I was suddenly doing with adoptees and I hadn't done that 579 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,700 before and the exposure and the experience of talking than 580 00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:44,600 listening. I found was was something that 581 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,500 was a really natural feel and fit. 582 00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:50,600 For me, and I ended up facilitating in the group and 583 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,800 then conducting interviews and group joining some other spaces 584 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,800 and doing something similar. Yeah, and I found that one of 585 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,100 the things I'm have a real affinity for as making 586 00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:07,600 connections, Reaching out to a lot of people and getting to 587 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,200 know people and that is often been the result of seeing people 588 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,500 in the calls and saying, I want you to feel comfortable after 589 00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:17,300 the call and I contact them and reach out see how they're doing. 590 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,300 How was it for you being in a call like this and experiencing 591 00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:23,100 this? Yeah, and leads to more depth of 592 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:27,300 connection leads to other people, starting to become 593 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:28,900 familiar with who you are. Yeah. 594 00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:30,800 And feeling more comfortable with you. 595 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,600 And then you go into one group, you see them in there as well. 596 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,000 And And pretty soon there's this kind of this sort of collegial 597 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,500 thing and I don't mean it like in the sense of like a club but 598 00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:45,000 it you start to get comfortable with the number of people that 599 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,900 you see all over the place and it feels good because you know 600 00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:52,100 that you can depend on them for certain level of support. 601 00:31:52,100 --> 00:31:56,400 You can be there for them for certain level of support and for 602 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,000 me that all started with with Facebook and and getting into 603 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,000 the zoom calls and Fireside adoptees. 604 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:08,100 And eventually here was me In people in person and joining it, 605 00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:13,000 adoptees connect of Derry New Hampshire up here and getting to 606 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,900 know, people even even more closely in real life and seeing 607 00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:19,600 how important that sort of connection is and how 608 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,200 indispensable that really is. And all of that together has 609 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,300 meant the experience for me, has been largely one of moderating 610 00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:29,900 facilitating and Connecting People. 611 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,500 Yeah, because I like, I like to listen to people, I like Allow 612 00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:37,800 them a chance to speak. Never thought I had anything 613 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,800 deeply profound to say about being an adoptee. 614 00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,800 But I feel like one thing I do know how to do that. 615 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,900 I think it's because of my career and how I've been on Zoom 616 00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:50,800 for all these years before this happened because I knew how to 617 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,900 make people comfortable in situations like this where they 618 00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:55,300 had to talk. Yeah. 619 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,100 Just to allow them a chance to be heard or seen and so that 620 00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:01,700 that's really. I feel like the most I have to 621 00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:05,400 contribute at this point is just having people A comfortable in a 622 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,100 space and to a degree safe. I'm not saying spaces are safe 623 00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:12,800 because I know some of them are not safe and oh, none of them. 624 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,500 Can never really have one under percent me. 625 00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:17,000 Right. But you can't have people more 626 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,200 comfortable in some spaces than another's. 627 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,300 And if I can do something to to allow that to happen, then I 628 00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:24,400 feel like I'm doing the right thing. 629 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,800 So that's the importance for me of connecting with people 630 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,700 online. Were you surprised at the level 631 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:35,700 of trauma that you saw I saw coming into these groups. 632 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:38,500 Or are you expecting that? No, did not excuse. 633 00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:40,000 You didn't know. I had it either. 634 00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:42,900 I didn't either. Yeah, that was crazy. 635 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,600 I found out within weeks. I remember when I joined the 636 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,900 first group, I was in and it was a big group, four, five, six, 637 00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,800 thousand people. So, I would see these 638 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,000 interactions. I remember trying to compose 639 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,800 composed of post in sitting on it for about 3 days because I 640 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,900 was so afraid. Somebody was going to come after 641 00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:04,900 me for it. Revising it and writing it and 642 00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:07,000 taking things out of it and toning it down. 643 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,000 And finally going, okay, I'm just going to put it up there 644 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,100 that it all had to do with the reactivity. 645 00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:19,699 Sometimes people have in spaces and sometimes the civility isn't 646 00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:24,300 there. Unfortunately and And I know, 647 00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:27,100 you know, exactly, don't know. Most people have been through 648 00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:31,199 that, unfortunately, and it can make for a really uncomfortable 649 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:33,600 experience for somebody who does want to connect. 650 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,300 My did want to connect. I thought I can't say just 651 00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:37,699 anything. I have to really be 652 00:34:37,699 --> 00:34:40,900 conscientious of what I say that turned out serve me. 653 00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:44,000 Well, because when I started working in the adoption trauma 654 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,900 Network, I found I had to be very circumspect about what I 655 00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:53,400 would say and what I would watch other people say sometimes 656 00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:55,400 Times. They will say things, too, and 657 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,300 if you're moderating or being an administrator in a certain rule, 658 00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:02,300 you can't have people saying certain things to each other 659 00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:04,700 too, because they'll also activate each other or other 660 00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:06,400 members in space. Yeah. 661 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,300 So the trauma manifestation that I saw was completely a shock to 662 00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:13,400 me. But I started to understand that 663 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,000 I was having it too. I didn't know that before. 664 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,000 I mean it was always there before but I didn't know what it 665 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,300 was till I was suddenly seeing it confronted by it. 666 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,400 So no, I was not prepared at all for what? 667 00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:25,400 It look like inside Space is like that. 668 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,400 Yeah. Is that kind of what, you know, 669 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,400 made you so passionate about becoming leaders and a lot of 670 00:35:32,408 --> 00:35:36,400 these groups was seeing the pain and hurt and just wanting to 671 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,000 help or like what is your why behind getting so involved? 672 00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:42,600 So that's an interesting question because I've never 673 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,800 approached anyone about being a leader in a group. 674 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,500 I've entered into the groups and I've had a natural fit with 675 00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,500 people in the group. And there have been times where 676 00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,500 I had to reach out to people who led certain segments of the 677 00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:00,800 group and then they approached me about leading in the group. 678 00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:04,700 But we're Fireside. It was just, I went in and I was 679 00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:07,000 in the zoom calls and I was participating. 680 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,900 And mandelbaum said he did just something that I really would 681 00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:14,000 like for you to do in this space. 682 00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:15,700 I have no idea. What I'm doing? 683 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:17,600 I didn't know I was doing anything. 684 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,600 Yeah, so I started to do that but I wasn't I never could have 685 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,100 imagined, that would happen. Yeah, the adoption trauma 686 00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:29,100 Network. I went in to talk to decide by a 687 00:36:29,100 --> 00:36:34,500 joint and I was talking to to the admins about something and 688 00:36:34,500 --> 00:36:37,300 we got conversation rolling over a number of weeks months. 689 00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:40,500 And it was finally, I'd like for you to consider doing this in 690 00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:43,100 this space for us. And I had to sit on that for a 691 00:36:43,107 --> 00:36:44,900 long time. So I didn't know. 692 00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:48,300 With her, I was equipped to do that and it takes a while to 693 00:36:48,308 --> 00:36:49,500 learn to do that. Yeah. 694 00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:50,800 Yeah. I still don't feel like I'm 695 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,400 great at some of these roles. I know, right? 696 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,900 The involvement piece. I thought I was excited by the 697 00:36:56,900 --> 00:36:58,500 same thing happen with adoptees connect. 698 00:36:58,500 --> 00:37:02,400 I just went to join a group of people and found out that person 699 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,300 I connected with who was running the group said, oh, I know you 700 00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:07,200 from Fireside. I'm looking to hand the group 701 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:08,500 off. Would you like to run it? 702 00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:10,900 Wow. So again, it was just this thing 703 00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:14,900 that happened and I'm very appreciative of it. 704 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,600 Opportunities like that because I realize not everybody gets a 705 00:37:17,607 --> 00:37:19,300 chance to do that. Yeah. 706 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,500 Where's the across multiple? Things like that? 707 00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:23,100 I know that doesn't happen very often. 708 00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:27,000 All right, I've never never taken that for granted. 709 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,000 I've never felt worthy of that. And sometimes, sometimes I get 710 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,900 kind of shy about talking about that because I feel like, oh, 711 00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:35,200 you're going to die. You're gonna tell them you do 712 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,100 this 2 and this 2. And you can feel kind of awkward 713 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:39,800 sometimes. Like, why are you out there? 714 00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:41,900 I'm not. Trying to make a fuss in front 715 00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:43,700 of people at all. I just yeah. 716 00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:46,900 For some reason, I I've had these opportunities that I 717 00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:49,400 again, like I said, I really appreciate them but I don't 718 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,100 always know how they come about. Yeah, yeah. 719 00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:56,900 So in your personal opinion, do you think it's possible to heal 720 00:37:56,900 --> 00:38:00,100 from the Primal wound or that you can totally come out of the 721 00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:01,900 fog? Or we always in the fog, a 722 00:38:01,908 --> 00:38:05,700 little bit. I think we're always in the fog 723 00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:08,000 a little bit. I do think though there is a 724 00:38:08,008 --> 00:38:12,300 point like for me where you're on the other side of it and 725 00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:13,400 you're not going to go back into. 726 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:19,200 It doesn't mean all of the vestiges of it are gone but for 727 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,800 me it's like on one side of the line, then suddenly I was on the 728 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,400 other and I knew I couldn't go backwards, didn't mean 729 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,700 everything was gone and cleared up for me though, but I thought 730 00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:33,600 it was a thought, okay? This is all laid out here. 731 00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:36,300 Not really didn't mean that was resolved, it just that I thought 732 00:38:36,300 --> 00:38:39,700 there's no more surprises. I know what's going on and then 733 00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:42,300 another friend of mine helped me see that know you're going to 734 00:38:42,308 --> 00:38:45,400 keep having these Revelations you're out of the fog but you're 735 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,600 still in the fog. Yeah. 736 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:50,600 Because you don't know fully what the reality was. 737 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,600 So you can find yourself confronted with things that you 738 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,100 didn't having to make new discoveries and Revelations are 739 00:38:57,107 --> 00:38:59,900 going to come to you about those things and they did. 740 00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:03,100 So I feel like even though I definitely am out of the fog, I 741 00:39:03,107 --> 00:39:06,000 would say mean There's some things I would never go back to, 742 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,900 and can't go back to my life for it. 743 00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:11,300 Because this anymore, I still am finding that I make these 744 00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:13,900 discoveries that I had no idea. We're going to be there. 745 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,700 Yeah, I find having the podcast, like, you know, like, oh, I had 746 00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:20,300 this great Revelation. I'm going to bring to everybody 747 00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:23,700 and then Karma's, like, well, you didn't, you don't totally 748 00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,400 have it down. So here, let's give you this too 749 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,500 and you know, it's like I go through it again. 750 00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:31,400 And yeah that's what's frustrating for me is I'm like I 751 00:39:31,408 --> 00:39:33,800 thought I was over this. I thought I was over this. 752 00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:35,700 The narratives again so frustrating. 753 00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:41,000 Sometimes I find that it's like facilitating, Zoom calls and 754 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,500 things like this. I'm listening intently because 755 00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:47,200 those moments come along all the time, and my eyes will get big. 756 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:47,700 And I think. Wow. 757 00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:50,500 I hadn't thought of that. I hadn't experienced that part 758 00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:52,100 of this before, or come to that realization. 759 00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:55,500 Yeah, so that's always happening right? 760 00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,400 In terms of the Primal wound question? 761 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,600 No, I don't think we heal from that. 762 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:07,500 I think we can. Twist and adjust to some things 763 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:12,200 and desensitized parts of it because it's not just the 764 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,400 somatic wound, doesn't just go away with things. 765 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,200 People might find that that are helpful certainly it should be 766 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,200 done because I mentioned this somatically the body 767 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,600 experiences, this right? You can lessen the impact of 768 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,400 that. For sure what happens though is 769 00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:33,700 even when that has been addressed as well as it can be. 770 00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:39,000 You're still confronted with the loss, the reality of the loss to 771 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,300 of your other identity of your heritage family. 772 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:47,300 Yeah, that isn't resolved by by your feelings, getting better or 773 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:49,800 your body and your nervous system not reacting. 774 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,300 As much doesn't restore, the things that you really lost that 775 00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:55,400 you need to grieve. Hmm. 776 00:40:55,500 --> 00:41:00,500 And also, we talked a lot about pre verbal aspect of this. 777 00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:03,800 The self didn't really exist before the trauma. 778 00:41:04,100 --> 00:41:08,000 So that there's no healing back to a self before that because 779 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,300 there wasn't any such self. Yeah. 780 00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:13,500 So all you really in my estimation can do is say this is 781 00:41:13,500 --> 00:41:15,900 always going to hurt to a degree and I'm always going to feel 782 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:18,300 this loss. What can I build on top of this? 783 00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:22,900 Now that allows me to go forward but be honest about the fact 784 00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:26,900 that these for me, I'm always going to be aware of what I 785 00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:31,800 don't have and should have had and I we can talk about well but 786 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,100 that life didn't really ever East. 787 00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:39,000 Yeah yeah I can talk about that but in an existential way the 788 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,100 way it confronts you as a person you do have to Grapple with the 789 00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:46,000 fact that your identity is really contingent, meaning it 790 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,400 could have been very much the case you ended up being somebody 791 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:50,800 else. You don't home with another 792 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:51,800 family. Yeah. 793 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,000 You be a different person for a kept person. 794 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,800 That's not really the reality because there was no question. 795 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:00,800 They were going to go home with that family for us. 796 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,500 If somebody else said, I hate to say this cruelly Signed up for a 797 00:42:04,508 --> 00:42:07,700 child line above our parents. We would have gone somewhere 798 00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:08,600 else. Yeah. 799 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,900 And become different people. So our identity is always been a 800 00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:16,500 question mark what are we going to turn out to be? 801 00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:19,500 So I think to say oh yeah but those are things you can't 802 00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:22,500 really worry about I think you need to confront those at some 803 00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:25,600 point out. How arbitrary your identity 804 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,100 formation really is an adoptee because it just might have been 805 00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:31,000 the case. Would have been the case that 806 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,600 you could have ended up being adopted by people. 807 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,400 Two doors down. Yeah, and you wouldn't be the 808 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,800 same person, you are now. Yeah, did you ever growing up? 809 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,000 Look around? Like, I always would think, you 810 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,700 know, when I was dating somebody like, I could be related to you, 811 00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:46,900 and I don't know that. You know, that was always like 812 00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:50,600 in the back of my mind, like, what if I found out you were 813 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,200 related to me? I remember thinking that is the 814 00:42:54,207 --> 00:42:56,400 adulthood. I didn't think about it so much 815 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,900 growing up, but I remember in adulthood seen this person at 816 00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:02,200 work. I can sort of been like 19, 817 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,200 1997, or so. Something. 818 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,700 So way before I 10 years before I found my family and thinking I 819 00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:12,800 actually asked her, I said, is there any chance that I'm 820 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,400 related to you? Honey that wasn't any romantic 821 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,900 thing or anything, which is typed saw this resemblance. 822 00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:21,200 I thought, and I've never done that before. 823 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,300 Ask somebody and know it didn't turn out. 824 00:43:24,300 --> 00:43:28,100 We were as far as we know, but that's the only time I had 825 00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:31,900 experienced that but I hear often about people talking about 826 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,000 And the real reality about especially depending on the 827 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,500 proximity of the geographic proximity to where your birth 828 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:43,100 family really was that people could end up in that situation, 829 00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:44,300 you know, it does happen. Yeah. 830 00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:46,600 Those are things people don't think about that. 831 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:52,300 We think about you know yeah but the doctor you definitely so so 832 00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:55,000 in closing, if you could give any advice to adopt these that 833 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,100 are struggling with adoption and coming out of the fog, what 834 00:43:59,100 --> 00:44:01,300 would that be? I think there's a lot of 835 00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:04,600 resources. I'm sure Community has been the 836 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,100 resource for me. I know people have had varying 837 00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:10,500 degrees of success with the community, because there are 838 00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:12,400 times when it's when it can be tough. 839 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:18,000 Same thing with the therapy, I'm not an expert on therapy, and 840 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,000 I've gone in and out of it, and I've found it helpful in to 841 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,700 varying degrees, but I'm not, I'm not somebody that can speak 842 00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:26,700 authoritatively on it, but I know it's helped a lot of 843 00:44:26,700 --> 00:44:29,500 people. So I would say that if you are 844 00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:33,100 going to do that, it's best. If you can to find An adoptee 845 00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:37,000 trauma-informed therapist just adoption trauma-informed, but if 846 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,400 you can find an adoptee was actually trauma-informed and 847 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,000 it's probably the best case they're in that sense. 848 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,500 Yeah. The community again like I said, 849 00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:48,900 can be very beneficial for people when they don't have any 850 00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:52,100 sounding boards they haven't had any any way of talking about any 851 00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:55,400 of this, and I think there's a generational thing here. 852 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,700 Meaning if you think back in, this is going to sound kind of 853 00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:00,500 strange dialogue. Looking at this ancient Greek 854 00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:04,700 sense of Hectic of talking back and forth with people was a way 855 00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:08,800 of figuring things out. Now we say, well if it's online, 856 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,700 you're not going to figure it out the right way because you 857 00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:13,900 can't read people fully and they won't be disclosing things to 858 00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:17,200 you and it still can be the best vehicle you may have at your 859 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,000 disposal. Not everybody's going to have 860 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,400 the ability to go find a therapist or do something in 861 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,800 person. So the groups can be very 862 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,300 effective if you know how to approach them and navigate them 863 00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:31,700 and learn how to be cautious yourself about how you feel in 864 00:45:31,707 --> 00:45:34,700 those. This is so I would say to have 865 00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:38,300 the greatest support that you can coming from the therapy if 866 00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:40,900 that's if it works well for you and you're able to do that 867 00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:42,900 because it can be a privilege to do that. 868 00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:45,700 To like I said, not everybody, unfortunately has access to that 869 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,500 but also the community can be great. 870 00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:51,100 If that's what you have at your disposal, then I would encourage 871 00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:53,200 people to Avail themselves of that as well. 872 00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:56,200 And the in-person groups like adoptees connect have been 873 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,100 really helpful for me. So I would, I would say those 874 00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:01,900 things are most helpful along with the of course. 875 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,400 All the Memoirs that have come out of the great things that 876 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,300 adoptees are saying speaking about their stories. 877 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,400 Yeah. And their perspective and the 878 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,700 ones that are in the clinical therapeutic spaces that are 879 00:46:13,700 --> 00:46:16,400 writing and giving presentations, I would 880 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,400 definitely lean on them as well. Yeah, well thanks for coming on 881 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,800 today. I know it seems that the male 882 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,900 adoptee population aren't as open to telling their stories it 883 00:46:27,900 --> 00:46:31,000 seems like so I totally appreciate you doing that today. 884 00:46:31,100 --> 00:46:33,000 Thank you. I noticed that as well. 885 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,100 Yeah, so thanks for coming on. Thank you so much, Melissa. 886 00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:42,100 Thanks Greg for coming on the show today, and making such a 887 00:46:42,100 --> 00:46:45,100 huge difference in the adoptee community. 888 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,300 I always find it. Interesting how similar, but 889 00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:53,500 different, all our stories are so much in common, but in 890 00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:57,500 different ways and if you are an adoptee listening today, 891 00:46:57,500 --> 00:47:02,100 wondering how you can help because there are a lot of ways 892 00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:04,900 that you can do that. You can contact me at mind, your 893 00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:07,400 own Karma, at gmail.com, and come. 894 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,000 Come on the show and tell your story another way to make an 895 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,200 impact is only going to take you one minute. 896 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,500 Go on your listening platform and rate and review this 897 00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:22,400 podcast. When you do that, it helps the 898 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,300 algorithms. It helps get the word out and it 899 00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:28,600 helps mind your own Karma. Come up in searches in Google 900 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,300 and such places. The Third Way, is get involved. 901 00:47:32,300 --> 00:47:37,400 Get in those groups on Facebook connect with people in your 902 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,900 area. As We adoptees join together, 903 00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:44,500 even with the constellation, our voices, get louder. 904 00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:47,900 So those are just a few ways that you can make a difference. 905 00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:51,100 If you would like to know more about mind your own Karma, you 906 00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:55,900 can go to my website, mind your own Karma.com, there you will 907 00:47:55,900 --> 00:47:58,800 find a little bit more about me and what I'm trying to do with 908 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:04,000 this podcast, some exciting things coming up on the 29th of 909 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,400 April, I am being joined by Danielle got debt. 910 00:48:07,500 --> 00:48:12,000 Healing Tree and larae Gerald. The chameleon, they have both 911 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,800 been on the show and we are doing an event bright where we 912 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,100 will be talking about different healing modalities such as 913 00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:25,100 somatic, mindful guided imagery mind-body, practices breathwork, 914 00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:27,800 and more. We will be sampling, some of 915 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,100 these modalities and also have Q&A. 916 00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:33,900 So come join us. You can find the information on 917 00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:37,800 my mind, your own Karma, Facebook page, hope to see See 918 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,900 you there as always. Take what you need and leave 919 00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:45,000 what you don't and always remember to mind your own Karma. 920 00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:46,900 I'll see you next time.