Hey there. It's Melissa.
Brunetti and welcome to the mind your own Karma podcast.
Hey, their karma crew. Thanks for joining me for
another episode of mind. Your own Karma, the adoption
Chronicles. Where we are educating the world
one story at a time. And today, I have Greg Gentry on
the show. You may know him if you are out
and about in the Facebook adoptee groups, I am honored to
have him on the show today and let me tell you a little bit
more about Greg. He was born in California in
1969 and placed in. A closed adoption as an infant
after spending six weeks and foster care, which was a common
practice with baby scoop era. Adoptions growing up, he sensed
a certain ill fit with his family and found out about his
adoption when he was 10 years old.
In 2006 at age, 37, he finally discovered and made contact with
his biological maternal side and has experienced all the
attendant ups and downs that so often accompany reunions, he was
able to connect with his Eternal family and late 20, 21.
And is currently navigating the landscape and complexities of
those newly emerging relationships, since coming out
of the fog in 2021, Greg has been an active member of the
online and in-person adoptee communities.
Here is Greg Gentry's story. So, we're welcoming Craig Gentry
to the show today. Hi Greg.
Hi, Melissa. Thanks for having me.
Yeah. So let's just jump right in.
Why don't you tell Tell us what, you know about your adoption
story. Yeah, that's a good question.
So I will start out by saying growing up.
I knew basically nothing about it and was never really talked
to about it. So anything I found out was
found out in pretty much around my mid-30s.
I didn't have any any clue about where I might have come from, I
didn't have any information, I don't have any names and no
discussion. My adoptive parents until I
secure the services of a private investigator.
When I was, yeah, I guess it was 36 or 37 at the time and so, I
literally found out everything about my birth mother's side all
at once. Pretty much in an information
that call it a dump, but it wasn't a huge amount of
information. But when you haven't seen
anything at all up to that point, it feels like a dump.
Is it was an email that suddenly here's what we have found out
and it was information on where she lived.
It was mentioned that I had grandparents that were still
living. Which was a shock to me because
I was 37 at the time. I knew she was very young when I
found that out. And it had, really no
information about my father, other than his place of birth.
It was a local. What year did you hire?
These detectives are investigator 2006.
Okay, yeah. So and I had wanted for about a
year. I think to look into it.
Seriously. I considered it off and on a few
times in adulthood, but I kept kind of talking myself out of it
like you shouldn't really have Worried about that or you don't
really want to know. And that was really more of, I
think my parents narratives than anything currently.
So since there were no discussions about it, openly
growing up and the few times I did bring it up, I got kind of
an emotional response cheerful response from my mom.
So I kind of came to feel like this isn't something we talk
about so I didn't and I talked myself out of it and even with
tell people, I'm not interested in finding out, but I was
interested. Stood.
Yeah, I just need to seriously engage in doing it until I was
yeah mid to late 30s. So you are on unraveling
adoption with that's Iverson recently.
And you had mentioned that in the baby scoop era.
Many adoptees were put in foster care to see if they had any
problems before placement. I had never heard that before
and I know I was placed in foster care.
Yeah. And I had health issues but they
never revealed that to My adoptive parents.
So can you talk about that a little bit?
I didn't know that was like I think I found that out somewhere
online and I heard it in a couple different places and it
basically was like a test run kind of how the baby the infant
before they go to where they'll be placed.
What is it going to be like? What might they manifest in the
first several weeks? And so they were placed say they
like it's someone else but yeah, placed into foster care for a
number of weeks or days. For me, I originally had thought
it was about three months. Is it turned out to be about six
weeks? I adopted mom finally told me
have no details about what it was like, who they were.
I'm not even sure they know barely and it was just kind of
weigh station or stopping point. But when I read more recently,
that the intention of it was to see what was going to manifest
in the child, that was being relinquished or had been
relinquished to that point, and it was kind of sobering because
it made you think what, what exactly did they think they were
going to observe, right? So kind of like I do want to say
Lab Rats but I mean That's kind of what it sounds like.
Are you going to be okay enough to go through with this store?
Yeah. And then, what if they, if I
wasn't exactly what if you weren't then?
What we're would. Yeah.
Where would you go then? At that point you go to some, I
don't know. The more distressing thing I
have found out about that was the tendency was for foster
parents in that are not to really be encouraged to bond it
all with the child. So I had assumed, okay, six
weeks that's awful. Maybe it's better than three
months. Least, I was being held and all
these things. And then I found out that they
were not encouraged for a whole lot of contact and a lot of wow,
because they were being told not to bond also because the child
was going somewhere else. So now I have absolutely no idea
what the standard of care might be an interesting interview to
interview, foster parent back in the late 60s, really would be
just to see what they were told, you know, really would because I
know, I was in foster care for 10 weeks, but I was told that it
was because Is my mom was trying to figure out a way to keep me
and so she kept putting off signing which she didn't sign
until like a week or two before I was placed.
So that was partially true. But yeah.
Yeah interesting I had not heard that before.
Yeah, I'm trying to remember where exactly, I saw it go back
and look at the look, it up a couple places where I might have
seen that and then let you know for sure it would be interesting
to hear somebody from that era, who was a foster parent, what
was it like were you encouraged to do or not to do?
Yeah. So, how was your experience
growing up? I mean, were you ever told you
were adopted? Do you remember being told?
Did you have any feelings around?
Finding out? I guess they had told me never
found out when they told me, but I found out consciously, when I
was 10 when I asked and then was told ya, we did have this
discussion with you, when you were younger that I never found
out when younger or what? My response was at the time.
But clearly I either couldn't process it.
Or didn't, or it was traumatizing itself at the time
or I no idea what it meant. Because, right, it seems to have
bumped around in my head for a number of years until in a
friend, helped me realize. It's there was a reason you it
precipitated in you, suddenly he saw something on TV and it
triggered you. And he said, was I adopted tomb?
That was what I asked my mom. She's been.
Yes. And my friend said, the only
reason that was in your head in the first place, it's probably
some party remembered this prior.
And where maybe they did tell you about that and you just
weren't at a place where you can understand what that meant or
why that was significant and suddenly I was confronted with
it on this episode of My Three Sons.
I remember the anxiety around it.
Wow suddenly I just yelled out mom was I adopted I think I
asked it. As I wasn't adopted was I one of
these - type questions about you know?
Yeah. Wow.
The answer was. Yes, he must have felt different
or an inkling that nothing was. Yeah, and I've thought a lot
about that to what was it like, you asked?
And so, even though I didn't have this clear sense of it
until I asked at age 10. So I like I say I found out at
10:00 maybe I was told earlier. Yeah, but that's when it became
something conscious to me and it was earth-shattering but life
growing up, it always been. We always got along really well
and I never have felt anything but love and acceptance for my
family doesn't mean I felt like I naturally Really was a fit
though and I didn't always know why they were very industrious
people. They were always Off cleaning
the yard doing all these physical things, making stuff
and I was, I wasn't as into that and I interpreted that as being
lazy and I think they interpreted that as being lazy
or some people would say, oh, you were just a kid that's true.
But my sister was also just a kid and she was a very hard
worker. There was a difference in our
personalities. I didn't know where it came
from. From.
I remember fantasizing that I had different siblings than the
ones, I grew up with which is kind of weird before you even
remember that years ago right around that time.
Yeah maybe I was 7 or 8 and I was starting to think about
that. Certainly by the time I found
out I almost imagined what would it be like actually to be
related to my siblings. So you had a sister just a
sister or do you have more siblings and where they adopted
or I have two older adoptive sisters, who are my parents?
Tickle daughters and neither. One of them are obviously adopt.
We didn't have it conversations about it.
So you are the only one that was adopted.
Yeah. In the family.
I was the only one was because they wanted a boy, or how did
that. Yeah.
But he bluntly. It was a boy.
How did you get along with your sisters growing up?
And now very well. In fact, overall not even does
over almost entirely. My life was one of being very
agreeable and compliant. Aunt and never in the way ever.
Talk you back. Never getting in fights even
when they would fight the sisters with each other.
I wouldn't fight nobody yelled. They would yell because they
were, they were Rivals. Yeah, but I was very gentle and
Inward and I feel like there were big manifestations of the
just the difference in temperament between all of us.
But I felt growing up that I Is exceptionally Meek will say,
even in school, I did have friends, I had to buy a plenty
of friends, I wasn't, I mean, I was painfully shy but I still
connected with people and I've always even in adulthood in this
kind of conciliatory and Mild sort of person and it was
confusing to me why I would be so much.
That way growing up. When I was like, in junior high,
I remember being like I wouldn't stand up for myself or anything.
I'm sure I would probably Let someone pound me into the dirt
and not even raise a hand. I didn't know why I would be
that way. Yeah, I had super low
self-esteem. I remember growing up and I was
super quiet and just wanted to blend into the background and
not be seen. Yeah, very much so and
definitely never made waves anywhere.
Look, I was never restricted or anything.
I didn't have any rebellious stage, I kind of view that now
is sort of unnatural, but I realized it was, it was
symptomatic of being a compliant adoptee.
Yeah, That's what it was even though I didn't know where any
of that came from. It's time for why I would be
that way. It was just the plane out of
kind of a primal Terror that I carried.
She was that I have to get along.
I have to get along. I have to go along.
What do I do to get along? And so, I did, I got along
flawlessly with everybody in my life, and I still mostly do
people even now and some of that can be an agreeable thing in my
personality. And some of that I'm aware of is
being really soft and kind. Kind of like wish I had the
ability to be more assertive. Sometimes this doesn't come very
naturally for me. Instead.
What comes out is being this way of being really agreeable with
the people? And yes, there was a lot of
people pleasing in it, for sure. Which I know is not not ideal
but it's not uncommon either. Yeah, it's this get along thing
and I had a hard time, I had a hard time forming my own
opinions and thinking I knew what was going on.
And so there was a lot of inward confusion on my part about how
do I, how do I arrived it? A what I think of things and it
took me a most of my life to realize I can have a voice to
let me in the past couple of years.
I really didn't know where that that could be the case looking
Do you see any habits or tendencies that growing up and
even into adulthood that you could most likely linked back to
being adopted? Staying out of the way for me
which is stayed with me. And I called that somewhere else
I called that being a zero footprint adoptee and I also
gave the example of it happens. Even at like at a grocery store
I will steer clear. Anybody who'd even think they
want to look right where I am. I'm out of the way.
I will never be in the way of anybody.
Any place. I will never insert myself front
of somebody. How about in your relationships,
With clothes, you know? Yeah.
I found that let's say in my what I call my vital
relationships with my wife at the time and my kids.
As I got older, I started to manifest these kind of reactions
that I didn't know where they came from either.
They were either from the result of being really depressed, or
not understanding where bursts of anger would come from wanting
to run away getting in the car and driving off.
It was the flight response, activated and me and I kept
doing it. I didn't ever know why it was
there. And so what happened was put a
lot of stress on my relationships because comes
across is as being reactive. Yeah.
And it was, it was a reactive way to be and I couldn't every
time I tried to address it, whether it was in a therapy
session or doing self work, I didn't get very far with it.
So it was never really addressing what was going on.
I was just kind of trying to trying to make up for what I
felt were deficiencies and how I was.
So when you would Feel those things.
Did you feel like you were justified in your feelings?
Or were you feeling like, why am I feeling this?
Or why is this happening? I felt terrible.
I still feel that because I can still do that.
I still can run away sometimes. Yeah, and I feel a lot of Shame
over that because anyone who's been in an activated state knows
what happens, what your nervous system feels like suddenly,
you're sort of compelled to go in a certain direction that you
thought I didn't expect to be going this way.
Again, why am I doing this again?
What did I just do? Yeah.
So that that can be really harmful in relationships for
sure. And the other part of it is it
can lead to feeling like you have to keep elements of
yourself to yourself because you're afraid.
People might try to remove things from you that you really
need to hold on to. So I had manifestations of that
at times and that's not the healthiest thing either but I
didn't realize where things came from.
Yeah, I finally figured out but I kind of unfortunately.
Get out too late to save some of the most important relationships
in my life at that point. Yeah, I was call that collateral
damage. Yeah, let's talk about reunions
for a minute. I know yours has had its ups and
downs and so can you tell us how you found your biological
family, how it went and where it's at now?
Since 2006, I've been in reunions with my maternal side
and that again was the result of getting the information from the
private investigator. Met my mother person for the
first time in 2007, we had talked for about a year before
that and we had all of the trepidation, all of the
approaching each other really cautiously and then we went into
it, really strongly. And we exchanged hundreds of
emails, text messages, Just just this whole who would we were
getting to know each other and we also were insecure about it
and thought, okay? Maybe maybe when we finally meet
what is it going to be like, we had every reason to believe it
was going to be really wonderful and it was when we connect it in
person and my family was there, my wife and my kids were there
at the time as well. They got to meet her to meet my
aunt, and my sister and my grandmother.
So it was it was a really nice time and when you mention it It
going up and down, it really did.
There were a few times, it went really badly, really wrong and
Brought up a lot of distress and each of us.
And a lot of behaviors toward each other that were toxic.
It was no way to navigate it in terms of we weren't equipped for
it as I guess, what? I'm, yeah, I wasn't any manual
on how to do it, so it went up and down in and out, and at
times, it got really bad and at times it would sail along and be
wonderful. And it went on like that back
and forth for for several years. And then, finally, in 2021, it
kind of broke down towards our time.
When we were moving to Florida from Massachusetts and it hasn't
really been restored with her since then.
But I've maintained that relationship with my sister.
That's my half brother from from her side and also with her
husband. So I stay in contact with them.
I had one chance to meet my uncle in person on her side and
one of my cousin's, a couple of my cousins and have not had any
real contact with them since then, which I felt as yearning
for. Like, I really wanted to do that
and to be more a part of their lives.
Somehow, if I can manage to do that, But the couple times that
I've tried I haven't just been kind of mild polite interest,
maybe though that's you. Okay.
But not a lot of. Yeah.
Oh I'd like to know you or let's talk.
There hasn't been anything like that coming out of it.
So what do you think went wrong with your mom?
Like was it unmet expectations or it was definitely it was
partly that she had a fantasy idea of what reunions would be
like. Hmm.
And sometimes it was that way in other times, it's felt and not
as well received by People in my family, and it made her very,
very uncomfortable and insecure. So she would react, which made
me react to drove us apart. It would take a while to restore
that. I think she's always struggled
with feeling worthy of being in my life and as felt like the
other people in my life, maybe hadn't given her all the room
she had, she had wanted. So the expectation kind of been
that we would just sail off wonderfully.
It always be really close seamlessly.
Yeah, I had that too, right? I had this fantasy in my mind.
Oh, I'll move to Texas and I'll live in the house.
Three Doors Down from then and we'll see each other hundreds of
times. It'll be great.
Yeah. And it was hard to disabuse
myself of that but I think it a largely did have to do with
expectation. I think it had to do with
communication which I sometimes can struggle with yeah, being
the neuro-diverse person but also somebody who's insecure.
I don't always have the clearest communication with people and
And even though I can talk to a roomful of people sometimes
interpersonally, it's tough. And there were times that
manifested to and I think the whole thing overall, just led to
the collapse of the reunions, unfortunately between us So you
met a brother recently? Yeah so I how did that go was
that the first time you had met him?
I was first time meeting him in terms of my father's side
because he was on my father's side.
I hadn't connected with them until late 2021.
And so the space the number of years between the reunions with
my birth mother and finally connecting with my late father's
family was about 14 years and it took that long because I had
carried Impressions from what I'd heard.
Heard from her. And this thought that maybe he
didn't really want me. Now, he had passed away in 1988
so I never had any chance to wow.
So, how old was he? When he passed 33?
Wow. Yeah, I had thought, well, he
was young, but what I found out, I couldn't find any details
about it just that you died in San Diego 1988 when I would have
been 19 and I thought, well, let me look around a little bit.
I wasn't any good at searching, I don't know how to do it.
I couldn't find anything. But it turned out that while I
was thinking all I was probably his only child.
He actually it had five more Sons.
Wow, none of them knew about me. That was, oh my god.
Do you know about you? What was that?
Did he know, did you yes? Okay.
Yeah, he knew he was 16. When I was born.
Mmm. Yeah, he remembered.
And, as I've talked to members in his family, I'd say that
sounds strange because they were members.
My family, they would say things like, I remember your birth
mother come into our house with her parents.
The day, that that discussion took place was going to happen
with you. She was pregnant with you.
I thought boy, that's really weird in heavy to hear something
like that. So do you know what happened?
During that discussion? Did they reveal?
And I don't know, I do know the one thing which is it my
mother's side? One of her brothers had wanted
to adopt me to keep the family and either he was too young or
something was determined to be unreasonable about that.
Yeah. And he didn't happen, I don't
know much about this deliberation that would have
taken place but I do know that it was obviously the I think the
grandparents my grandparents who were the deciding factor there
on my mother's side, that's part of the know they're both still
alive. Other side, they both passed one
of them. I'd always thought was my
grandfather was part of this decision on my father's side and
turns out he had actually passed away in 1968 year before.
I was born, I was another man, she was married to when I was
relinquished. So he actually had something to
do with the decision of where which was weird to realize that
because I'd always thought it was my grandfather and it wasn't
him. So what advice would you give
somebody that's thinking about reuniting?
I would always tell somebody who wants to do it that they should
do it, if that's what they really want to do.
I'm not a naysayer about reunions.
I don't counsel anybody to stay away from it.
I will certainly let people know that it's complex.
Its Dynamic and it's gut-wrenching, and if you
thought it was hard enough, growing up as an adoptee, wait
till you put your natural family into it.
And then the Collision of all these elements is Is just,
there's just no way to be fully prepared for what that'll be
like, you just can't imagine it. So you're actually in it and
experiencing it and of course, it's different for every single
one of us. So I would say that I encourage
people to go ahead with it because there there may be other
more than one reason they want to do it, right.
Some people do want to do this for medical data and things like
this. I kind of talked myself about
that a little bit and I realized no I really do want to form
relationships with people that I think, is where People tend to
give more advice and say don't have expectations.
Don't this and don't that I'm not somebody that advises people
not to have expectations because I'm not able to do that for
myself, to say, I just won't have expectations that I can't
do that. I always have expectations.
I'm going to be honest about it so I couldn't really Council
somebody else. Not to, when I'm not able to do
that, I would just say though to be aware that you'll need a lot
of support from people who understand what this experience
is like. So yeah, do what you can to be
connected with people, who've gone through it, which means you
do have to talk to other adoptees.
If you've never done that. Hmm, you won't be able to find
out through reading a book, what it's going to be like and you
even forgot what it was like for them.
Sure. But you'll need the support
people because there will be probably times it goes off the
rails, like it did for me of the other times.
It's just soaring the stratosphere and don't think
it's the most amazing thing ever or or anything in between.
Or it may never get off the ground at all.
And that's its own particular type of grief.
That's the give about these expectations so hard, not to
have them. I just don't know how you can
not have them. And there are doors slam.
There are so many things, but if you can find support from people
in person, support is great. There's a way to do it to meet
these people if not. Mhm, there are some great online
resources here for people, but I think it's just important to
talk to people that know what that experience is like and who
can console you. And things might get really
hard. Yeah, I think you know a couple
of the key things is communication like you were
saying feeling like you can communicate with them.
I felt like I couldn't you know really tell my birth mother, you
know how I was feeling. In fact, she would kind of go
behind my back and talk to my husband at the time and be like
why is she doing this? Why is she?
You know, and I was like oh I feel like I'm being normal like
this is me sorry yes. Sorry it was very uncomfortable.
Durable. But, but I felt like I couldn't
be truthful with her and say some things as well, things
back. Yeah, yeah, I have a thing.
I had didn't think about was after reunions then what's going
to happen? That's the other thing is kind
of in your mind, kind of thinking like is this person
going to be in your life? If possible, all those type of
things? Like I didn't even know I was
like, okay what are my kids going to call her?
They have a grandma and grandpa you know, what are we going to?
How are you going to fit? Very confused.
That's really hard. And yeah, because we tend to
think of families in these ways suddenly you have more family
but they're a different kind of family.
They're just like their indispensable or Dare
dispensable. Hmm.
You don't want to get rid of a kind of a fit.
Well my siblings that was easy like you can have five thousand
brothers and sisters you know that's easy.
But as far as the parent role you know it was just kind of
like whoa, I didn't think about this at all.
It's like hitting the brick wall.
All, I found that with my told My adoptive parents about
finding her boy that was uncomfortable and I became the
person in the room that had to reassure them that I love them.
And, you know, you know, the story goes I was yeah I remember
that very clearly because my birth mother wanted me to have
that conversation with them in order to continue our
relationship. So I have really kind of had no
choice but to tell them and I did and it was very painful for
them but You put me in a position.
I don't think adoptees should fairly have to be in that
position. Yeah, it's okay.
I still love you that's hard. And yeah, because we know we
know what this role of this burden and gratitude that we
have we're not supposed to be there to assure a reassure, our
parents of their importance. That's that's kind of what put
us in this situation to begin with.
Yeah, for a lot of us anyway, was we were building a family
for somebody who was in a state of loss because they couldn't do
it. It and now they're going to feel
all this insecurity and suddenly you have to step into the role
of tell him, it's okay. Yeah.
I still think of you this way and it's really not fair for us
to be in that situation. So your birth mother basically
forced you to tell your adoptive parents.
Otherwise she wasn't going to have a relationship with you
that? Yes that's true.
Wow that was she didn't do it on kindly but when I think about it
now she didn't ask me whether I wanted to do it or not.
It was just You really need to do this.
Otherwise I don't feel comfortable continuing this by
thinking. Now I would have probably had a
different conversation with her about it.
Yeah. But I also it's this Incognito
thing adoptees, too late. I don't want anybody my family
to know I'm doing this. Yeah, which I hate, but I did
it. I know.
So, I wish nobody did. But I know many of us are trying
not to hurt anyone, but at the same time, trying to and get
answers and be true. To yourself too.
And it's so difficult to juggle all of that, you put yourself in
the back seat or in the farthest away.
Roll and go, I'll put all of them upfront.
She wants me to tell them. I'll tell them.
They want to know, they're still important.
I'll tell them I'll sit in the back and see what happens and so
that's how that went. So you're involved in a lot of
adoptee groups. What made you seek out these
groups in the first place? And what did you find there that
helped you? I found them through Facebook
which was a brand new thing for me back in. 321.
I originally had joined to look up some things that my wife said
were important to my daughter and I thought to look up the
top, these groups didn't know what I would find is I've never
really talked to adopted people before he even though I'd grown
up with. So and suddenly, I was in this
really big group of people and they were talking about all
these things and I was looking at it reading all of this stuff
and thinking. What's that?
What's that?
And within a very short amount of time, it led to me coming out
of the fog kind of dramatically within weeks of being in this
platform at all in the adoptee community.
And once I hit that point, I thought these connections I'm
making that they were just really fledgling connections
than I had no idea. Anyone was I had no idea who I
was. I decided to join a couple more
in one of them was farsighted up, please.
We're friend, invited me into that group and it was still a
small group at the time about 3035 people, maybe it it just
started. Yeah, about a month of joining
it was a whole different experience for me to do this
sort of thing, but looking at you on a zoom screen and that's
what I was suddenly doing with adoptees and I hadn't done that
before and the exposure and the experience of talking than
listening. I found was was something that
was a really natural feel and fit.
For me, and I ended up facilitating in the group and
then conducting interviews and group joining some other spaces
and doing something similar. Yeah, and I found that one of
the things I'm have a real affinity for as making
connections, Reaching out to a lot of people and getting to
know people and that is often been the result of seeing people
in the calls and saying, I want you to feel comfortable after
the call and I contact them and reach out see how they're doing.
How was it for you being in a call like this and experiencing
this? Yeah, and leads to more depth of
connection leads to other people, starting to become
familiar with who you are. Yeah.
And feeling more comfortable with you.
And then you go into one group, you see them in there as well.
And And pretty soon there's this kind of this sort of collegial
thing and I don't mean it like in the sense of like a club but
it you start to get comfortable with the number of people that
you see all over the place and it feels good because you know
that you can depend on them for certain level of support.
You can be there for them for certain level of support and for
me that all started with with Facebook and and getting into
the zoom calls and Fireside adoptees.
And eventually here was me In people in person and joining it,
adoptees connect of Derry New Hampshire up here and getting to
know, people even even more closely in real life and seeing
how important that sort of connection is and how
indispensable that really is. And all of that together has
meant the experience for me, has been largely one of moderating
facilitating and Connecting People.
Yeah, because I like, I like to listen to people, I like Allow
them a chance to speak. Never thought I had anything
deeply profound to say about being an adoptee.
But I feel like one thing I do know how to do that.
I think it's because of my career and how I've been on Zoom
for all these years before this happened because I knew how to
make people comfortable in situations like this where they
had to talk. Yeah.
Just to allow them a chance to be heard or seen and so that
that's really. I feel like the most I have to
contribute at this point is just having people A comfortable in a
space and to a degree safe. I'm not saying spaces are safe
because I know some of them are not safe and oh, none of them.
Can never really have one under percent me.
Right. But you can't have people more
comfortable in some spaces than another's.
And if I can do something to to allow that to happen, then I
feel like I'm doing the right thing.
So that's the importance for me of connecting with people
online. Were you surprised at the level
of trauma that you saw I saw coming into these groups.
Or are you expecting that? No, did not excuse.
You didn't know. I had it either.
I didn't either. Yeah, that was crazy.
I found out within weeks. I remember when I joined the
first group, I was in and it was a big group, four, five, six,
thousand people. So, I would see these
interactions. I remember trying to compose
composed of post in sitting on it for about 3 days because I
was so afraid. Somebody was going to come after
me for it. Revising it and writing it and
taking things out of it and toning it down.
And finally going, okay, I'm just going to put it up there
that it all had to do with the reactivity.
Sometimes people have in spaces and sometimes the civility isn't
there. Unfortunately and And I know,
you know, exactly, don't know. Most people have been through
that, unfortunately, and it can make for a really uncomfortable
experience for somebody who does want to connect.
My did want to connect. I thought I can't say just
anything. I have to really be
conscientious of what I say that turned out serve me.
Well, because when I started working in the adoption trauma
Network, I found I had to be very circumspect about what I
would say and what I would watch other people say sometimes
Times. They will say things, too, and
if you're moderating or being an administrator in a certain rule,
you can't have people saying certain things to each other
too, because they'll also activate each other or other
members in space. Yeah.
So the trauma manifestation that I saw was completely a shock to
me. But I started to understand that
I was having it too. I didn't know that before.
I mean it was always there before but I didn't know what it
was till I was suddenly seeing it confronted by it.
So no, I was not prepared at all for what?
It look like inside Space is like that.
Yeah. Is that kind of what, you know,
made you so passionate about becoming leaders and a lot of
these groups was seeing the pain and hurt and just wanting to
help or like what is your why behind getting so involved?
So that's an interesting question because I've never
approached anyone about being a leader in a group.
I've entered into the groups and I've had a natural fit with
people in the group. And there have been times where
I had to reach out to people who led certain segments of the
group and then they approached me about leading in the group.
But we're Fireside. It was just, I went in and I was
in the zoom calls and I was participating.
And mandelbaum said he did just something that I really would
like for you to do in this space.
I have no idea. What I'm doing?
I didn't know I was doing anything.
Yeah, so I started to do that but I wasn't I never could have
imagined, that would happen. Yeah, the adoption trauma
Network. I went in to talk to decide by a
joint and I was talking to to the admins about something and
we got conversation rolling over a number of weeks months.
And it was finally, I'd like for you to consider doing this in
this space for us. And I had to sit on that for a
long time. So I didn't know.
With her, I was equipped to do that and it takes a while to
learn to do that. Yeah.
I still don't feel like I'm
great at some of these roles. I know, right?
The involvement piece. I thought I was excited by the
same thing happen with adoptees connect.
I just went to join a group of people and found out that person
I connected with who was running the group said, oh, I know you
from Fireside. I'm looking to hand the group
off. Would you like to run it?
Wow. So again, it was just this thing
that happened and I'm very appreciative of it.
Opportunities like that because I realize not everybody gets a
chance to do that. Yeah.
Where's the across multiple? Things like that?
I know that doesn't happen very often.
All right, I've never never taken that for granted.
I've never felt worthy of that. And sometimes, sometimes I get
kind of shy about talking about that because I feel like, oh,
you're going to die. You're gonna tell them you do
this 2 and this 2. And you can feel kind of awkward
sometimes. Like, why are you out there?
I'm not. Trying to make a fuss in front
of people at all. I just yeah.
For some reason, I I've had these opportunities that I
again, like I said, I really appreciate them but I don't
always know how they come about. Yeah, yeah.
So in your personal opinion, do you think it's possible to heal
from the Primal wound or that you can totally come out of the
fog? Or we always in the fog, a
little bit. I think we're always in the fog
a little bit. I do think though there is a
point like for me where you're on the other side of it and
you're not going to go back into.
It doesn't mean all of the vestiges of it are gone but for
me it's like on one side of the line, then suddenly I was on the
other and I knew I couldn't go backwards, didn't mean
everything was gone and cleared up for me though, but I thought
it was a thought, okay? This is all laid out here.
Not really didn't mean that was resolved, it just that I thought
there's no more surprises. I know what's going on and then
another friend of mine helped me see that know you're going to
keep having these Revelations you're out of the fog but you're
still in the fog. Yeah.
Because you don't know fully what the reality was.
So you can find yourself confronted with things that you
didn't having to make new discoveries and Revelations are
going to come to you about those things and they did.
So I feel like even though I definitely am out of the fog, I
would say mean There's some things I would never go back to,
and can't go back to my life for it.
Because this anymore, I still am finding that I make these
discoveries that I had no idea. We're going to be there.
Yeah, I find having the podcast, like, you know, like, oh, I had
this great Revelation. I'm going to bring to everybody
and then Karma's, like, well, you didn't, you don't totally
have it down. So here, let's give you this too
and you know, it's like I go through it again.
And yeah that's what's frustrating for me is I'm like I
thought I was over this. I thought I was over this.
The narratives again so frustrating.
Sometimes I find that it's like facilitating, Zoom calls and
things like this. I'm listening intently because
those moments come along all the time, and my eyes will get big.
And I think. Wow.
I hadn't thought of that. I hadn't experienced that part
of this before, or come to that realization.
Yeah, so that's always happening right?
In terms of the Primal wound question?
No, I don't think we heal from that.
I think we can. Twist and adjust to some things
and desensitized parts of it because it's not just the
somatic wound, doesn't just go away with things.
People might find that that are helpful certainly it should be
done because I mentioned this somatically the body
experiences, this right? You can lessen the impact of
that. For sure what happens though is
even when that has been addressed as well as it can be.
You're still confronted with the loss, the reality of the loss to
of your other identity of your heritage family.
Yeah, that isn't resolved by by your feelings, getting better or
your body and your nervous system not reacting.
As much doesn't restore, the things that you really lost that
you need to grieve. Hmm.
And also, we talked a lot about pre verbal aspect of this.
The self didn't really exist before the trauma.
So that there's no healing back to a self before that because
there wasn't any such self. Yeah.
So all you really in my estimation can do is say this is
always going to hurt to a degree and I'm always going to feel
this loss. What can I build on top of this?
Now that allows me to go forward but be honest about the fact
that these for me, I'm always going to be aware of what I
don't have and should have had and I we can talk about well but
that life didn't really ever East.
Yeah yeah I can talk about that but in an existential way the
way it confronts you as a person you do have to Grapple with the
fact that your identity is really contingent, meaning it
could have been very much the case you ended up being somebody
else. You don't home with another
family. Yeah.
You be a different person for a kept person.
That's not really the reality because there was no question.
They were going to go home with that family for us.
If somebody else said, I hate to say this cruelly Signed up for a
child line above our parents. We would have gone somewhere
else. Yeah.
And become different people. So our identity is always been a
question mark what are we going to turn out to be?
So I think to say oh yeah but those are things you can't
really worry about I think you need to confront those at some
point out. How arbitrary your identity
formation really is an adoptee because it just might have been
the case. Would have been the case that
you could have ended up being adopted by people.
Two doors down. Yeah, and you wouldn't be the
same person, you are now. Yeah, did you ever growing up?
Look around? Like, I always would think, you
know, when I was dating somebody like, I could be related to you,
and I don't know that. You know, that was always like
in the back of my mind, like, what if I found out you were
related to me? I remember thinking that is the
adulthood. I didn't think about it so much
growing up, but I remember in adulthood seen this person at
work. I can sort of been like 19,
1997, or so. Something.
So way before I 10 years before I found my family and thinking I
actually asked her, I said, is there any chance that I'm
related to you? Honey that wasn't any romantic
thing or anything, which is typed saw this resemblance.
I thought, and I've never done that before.
Ask somebody and know it didn't turn out.
We were as far as we know, but that's the only time I had
experienced that but I hear often about people talking about
And the real reality about especially depending on the
proximity of the geographic proximity to where your birth
family really was that people could end up in that situation,
you know, it does happen. Yeah.
Those are things people don't think about that.
We think about you know yeah but the doctor you definitely so so
in closing, if you could give any advice to adopt these that
are struggling with adoption and coming out of the fog, what
would that be? I think there's a lot of
resources. I'm sure Community has been the
resource for me. I know people have had varying
degrees of success with the community, because there are
times when it's when it can be tough.
Same thing with the therapy, I'm not an expert on therapy, and
I've gone in and out of it, and I've found it helpful in to
varying degrees, but I'm not, I'm not somebody that can speak
authoritatively on it, but I know it's helped a lot of
people. So I would say that if you are
going to do that, it's best. If you can to find An adoptee
trauma-informed therapist just adoption trauma-informed, but if
you can find an adoptee was actually trauma-informed and
it's probably the best case they're in that sense.
Yeah. The community again like I said,
can be very beneficial for people when they don't have any
sounding boards they haven't had any any way of talking about any
of this, and I think there's a generational thing here.
Meaning if you think back in, this is going to sound kind of
strange dialogue. Looking at this ancient Greek
sense of Hectic of talking back and forth with people was a way
of figuring things out. Now we say, well if it's online,
you're not going to figure it out the right way because you
can't read people fully and they won't be disclosing things to
you and it still can be the best vehicle you may have at your
disposal. Not everybody's going to have
the ability to go find a therapist or do something in
person. So the groups can be very
effective if you know how to approach them and navigate them
and learn how to be cautious yourself about how you feel in
those. This is so I would say to have
the greatest support that you can coming from the therapy if
that's if it works well for you and you're able to do that
because it can be a privilege to do that.
To like I said, not everybody, unfortunately has access to that
but also the community can be great.
If that's what you have at your disposal, then I would encourage
people to Avail themselves of that as well.
And the in-person groups like adoptees connect have been
really helpful for me. So I would, I would say those
things are most helpful along with the of course.
All the Memoirs that have come out of the great things that
adoptees are saying speaking about their stories.
Yeah. And their perspective and the
ones that are in the clinical therapeutic spaces that are
writing and giving presentations, I would
definitely lean on them as well. Yeah, well thanks for coming on
today. I know it seems that the male
adoptee population aren't as open to telling their stories it
seems like so I totally appreciate you doing that today.
Thank you. I noticed that as well.
Yeah, so thanks for coming on. Thank you so much, Melissa.
Thanks Greg for coming on the show today, and making such a
huge difference in the adoptee community.
I always find it. Interesting how similar, but
different, all our stories are so much in common, but in
different ways and if you are an adoptee listening today,
wondering how you can help because there are a lot of ways
that you can do that. You can contact me at mind, your
own Karma, at gmail.com, and come.
Come on the show and tell your story another way to make an
impact is only going to take you one minute.
Go on your listening platform and rate and review this
podcast. When you do that, it helps the
algorithms. It helps get the word out and it
helps mind your own Karma. Come up in searches in Google
and such places. The Third Way, is get involved.
Get in those groups on Facebook connect with people in your
area. As We adoptees join together,
even with the constellation, our voices, get louder.
So those are just a few ways that you can make a difference.
If you would like to know more about mind your own Karma, you
can go to my website, mind your own Karma.com, there you will
find a little bit more about me and what I'm trying to do with
this podcast, some exciting things coming up on the 29th of
April, I am being joined by Danielle got debt.
Healing Tree and larae Gerald. The chameleon, they have both
been on the show and we are doing an event bright where we
will be talking about different healing modalities such as
somatic, mindful guided imagery mind-body, practices breathwork,
and more. We will be sampling, some of
these modalities and also have Q&A.
So come join us. You can find the information on
my mind, your own Karma, Facebook page, hope to see See
you there as always. Take what you need and leave
what you don't and always remember to mind your own Karma.
I'll see you next time.