Hey there, it's me, Melissa Brunetti, the host of Mind Your
Own Karma, The Adoption Chronicles.
And if you have been listening to this podcast for any amount
of time, you know part of my purpose is to educate the world
on the complexities of adoption. And if you didn't know
yesterday, October 30th, was Adoptee Remembrance Day.
This is the day that we remember those adoptees that have
completed suicide over the trauma they have felt from being
adopted. The statistics are pretty
staggering. There was a 20 year old study
that showed that adolescent adoptees are four times more
likely to attempt suicide than non adoptees.
Males were 3.2 times increased risk and females were 4.8 times
increased risk for attempting suicide, and adult adoptees who
searched for biological family are at even higher risk for
psychological distress. If you feel you need immediate
help, please call the suicide and Crisis hotline at 988.
These are staggering and true statistics that need to be
addressed. November is Adoptee Awareness
Month, and if you have an adoptee or know an adoptee in
your life, I ask you that you join us, the adoptee community,
by educating yourselves on the complexities of adoption.
You can do that by listening to one of many of the adoptee
podcasts that are available. There are many books that are
autobiographies that you could read or even just Google
adoption trauma. It's time to educate the world
about these statistics. If you are struggling, it's
never too late to reach out for help.
Please again dial the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline AT988.
Hey there, it's Melissa Brunetti.
And welcome to the Mind Your Own Karma Podcast.
Hey there, Karma crew. Thanks for joining me on another
episode of Mind Your Own, Karma, The Adoption Chronicles.
Today I have an adoptee and author, Doctor Jack Rocco, on
the show today. His book is called Recycled.
And let me tell you, it's different than a lot of the
other adoptee books that I have read.
It has laughter, it has you crying all the emotions in
between. It is an absolutely fantastic
book and it doesn't just talk about adoption.
There's so much more packed into this book and I highly recommend
it. But before we dive in, let me
tell you a little bit more about Doctor Jack Rocco.
He has had more than 30 years practicing as an orthopaedic and
cosmetic surgeon. His work has taken him to many
countries and cultures, including to Japan, where he
served in the US Air Force into Madagascar, where he established
and helped treat hundreds of children with devastating
orthopaedic deformities, predominantly including clubfoot
Recycled. His first book chronicles the
behind the scenes reluctant and subconscious journey exploring
the impact of being relinquished and adopted during the Baby
Scoop era of the mid 60s. As he eventually finds his birth
families, he also finds himself he maintains homes outside of
Charlotte, NC and Hartford, CT Jack is a pretty busy man being
a surgeon and he had to do this interview in the airport, so you
may hear some background noise as he was generously squeezing
in this interview into his busy schedule.
Here is my interview with Jack Rocco.
So we are welcoming Jack Rocco to the show.
Hello there. Hey, Melissa.
How are you? I'm great.
So you wrote a book called Recycled and it explains the
complexities of adoption so well.
I laughed, I cried and every emotion in between reading the
book and I just loved it. And I'm just wondering why the
name Recycled. Well, that was that came from my
grandfather. You know, I had the the.
Immigrant first generation, you know, immigrant grandfather who,
you know came to this country and you know, he didn't talk so
good as they would say in Erie, PA So you know, he that was his
word and he used it more in terms of, you know, any kid in
the family that wasn't tradition, you know, like.
If it was a stepchild or girlfriend's previous
relationship. So it was these kids that were,
you know, not your traditional husband, wife, family situation.
And I'd never heard the word. You know, we were very close
growing up and you know, it's probably in my late 20s when I
first heard him use the word. And I describe it in the book.
You know we were. Fixing a grandfather clock.
He would make cabinets for grandfather clocks in his
basement. And I helped him and we were
always together and we were fixing a clock one day.
And he's like, you know, Jack, I think we got more recycled kids
in the family now than we got our own.
And I was like, yeah, I know Papa, you know, and and I kind
of. I think I kind of did the
typical, you know, like society's going to pots.
It's not your usual. I think my reaction to it was,
you know, a little bit derogatory perhaps just, you
know, I know the world's changing.
It's not traditional. I'm like, I know, Papa, what are
you gonna do, you know? And and that was it.
But, you know, then I was familiar with the word.
And I I talk about in the book when he passed away, they.
Put me in charge of writing his eulogy, which was a huge
emotional thing for me. And you know when when he we
were so close, I can't even tell you And you know, So I spent the
day after he died just driving around my hometown of Erie and
just going through all the memories of.
You know I'd go went into his workshop and just looked around
and found little things that he had worked on and went to the
lake where we would fish. I went to the 84 lumber place
where we go and get supplies and just all these memories came
flushing by. And then at some point you know,
the idea of the recycled child came into my thoughts, you know
and the and the kid, you know, I had everybody include in their
their comments in the in the eulogy.
That was the first time, you know, I was probably 323132 and
I thought and I'm like, you know what, I was recycled as well.
And like I was the original recycled kid, the OG of
recycled. And you know, so it's it kind of
shocked me that you know, I had assimilated.
I think I had a great childhood growing up and.
You know, really loved them and and loved the experience.
So when, you know, when that struck me, I was just like, wow,
you know, it's like I kind of gave a little bit of a
derogatory feeling or sense. I wasn't sure what he wanted me
to say about that, you know, because, you know, the word
could be taken as, you know, somewhat derogatory.
And then I thought about it and I'm like, you know what?
I was recycled. And I never felt that way.
And I don't think any, you know, all the kids.
I had everybody write it down on a piece of paper, things that he
had told them or taught them, and it was hysterical and it was
hysterical and it was consistent.
You know, the thing my, my, my father and uncle told about him
and my generation and the generation after me and the
little kids, you know, he was just universally, you know,
loved and appreciated. And no one took the term as as
derogatory. It was just, you know, his
getting it across. Right.
The Italian vocabulary no filter.
I absolutely would. Give it So what do you know
about your adoption, the circumstances around why you
were put up for adoption? Yeah, my, my parents were.
It ended up being pretty much the classic story that a lot of
people heard. That they were, you know, young
college kids, was a a brief relationship.
Whether that was one date, two dates, I don't know.
I didn't. I didn't really dig.
You know, some things are my business, some things weren't.
But you know, my mother pretty much commented that, you know,
it's a brief relationship. And you know, she found out she
was pregnant and walked down Main Street of Mansfield, PA and
he was practicing football on the field.
And we walked this walk with her once I reunited with her.
So it's kind of neat to be able to envision it happening, you
know 40 years year. You know, she told him of of the
pregnancy. And I don't think getting
married was an option. So, you know, she did the
typical went away to a, you know, home for wayward women.
And you know, which was in Erie, PA, she probably lived about
four hours away. So, you know, she went away to
visit an aunt, had me, gave me away, relinquished me, and then
went back home. And it was her senior year, so
her. Her career was a little
sidetracked and she ended up going to grad school afterwards
and just eventually got married but never had any other
children. OK, so you're her only child.
Yeah. Wow.
So why did your adoptive parents want to adopt?
Do you know? Why did they choose to adopt?
Mother had endometriosis, so she was unable to conceive, which
you know in an Italian family with kids crawling all over the
floor everywhere that was, you know, I'm sure a huge
disappointment for them and you know, I don't, I know there's a
range of of feelings on. You know, adoptive parents and I
never had the sense that there was any anything wrong with what
they did. It was common for the day and
it's what they did. And you know, me and my sister
were integrated in the family very well.
You know, I think we both, quote UN quote, looked Italian.
You know, we had a little darker eyes, darker hair, a little
darker complexion. But in retrospect, I mean, of
course I did have. You know, feelings of adoption
and feelings of curiosity. But you know, we were told right
along you were loved. And I remember my mother sitting
me, you know, sitting on the bed next to me, putting me to sleep
as a child. And you know, it's just telling
me how much she loved me and how much they went through to get me
and how they appreciate, you know, all those things.
So you know, I was, I was on board with it and and I think it
was, it was true. Did you ever remember being told
you were adopted, or did you always know?
I don't, Yeah. I kind of always knew.
And I remember, if anything, I remember being the one who told
my other cousins. You know, we had, we had 11
cousins in my generation, including me.
And I remember sitting underneath dining room tables or
you know, in in the backyard and telling people I was adopted and
I was the oldest, the oldest boy.
And we all got along and and I also had an uncle who was
adopted maybe you know, two decades before or more.
And I was very close with him as well.
So there was no stigma, there was no teasing that I recall.
I mean I assimilated. I was, you know, in retrospect I
call probably a hyper assimilator.
You know I was, I was more quote, UN quote more Italian
than. Than most Italians, I guess.
You know, I mean, I had the the Italian horn and the red, white
and green flag T-shirts and you know, kiss me, I'm Italian.
And you know, but we were, we were completely surrounded by
it. And in Erie that was common.
So I I loved it. I really did.
Yeah, I had the same. And I don't know about you, but
in my Italian adoptive family, it's almost like it never
crosses their mind. Like it's like you're part of
the family and that's it. Like.
Yeah, it doesn't. I don't know.
I've never felt different. Did you ever feel different?
I, you know, like I said subconsciously I recall you
know, looking at other kids, you know, I had really poofy hair,
you know, Brillo pad head, you know, was teased about that a
little bit and. You know, I also, you know, like
in retrospect I, you know, especially during my teen years,
I had bad dandruff. You know, my head, my scalp was
always itchy and I would just, you know, I had the selts in
blue and the head and shoulders and trying to get rid of my
dandruff and it just, you know, it was really irritated scalp.
And then in retrospect, you know, it was I had a different
type of hair that needed more moisturizer and versus you know,
I could wash it all day long. I was just making it worse.
So some of those things that. You know, 'cause it turns out
that I was, I was mixed race. You know that I'm not Italian.
And, you know, wasn't until coming out of the fog when you
know, I, I, I say in the book, you know, it's like when the dam
burst, when I found my birth mother and and when she
relinquished me in court, I had the court transcripts.
And the judge asked her, you know, Are you Joyce?
Yes, Sir. Are you the mother of this Negro
child? You know the transcript.
And I was like. Who's the neat?
You know, it's like it was shocking this.
You're looking around. Yeah, this is the neat.
Who's he talking about? Did she have another baby?
Like what? You know.
So you know, Then I was like, no wonder I had the hair.
No wonder I had the dandruff. You know, I just kept washing.
No wonder I had, you know, like. You know, my friends would say I
had a bubble butt or you know, I had some, you know, like all the
stereotypes. And and my school was, was a
diverse school, high school, middle school.
I had close friends. I played sports, I ran track and
played football and I got along great with them.
I didn't have any points of contention.
And you know, this is soon after a lot of the civil rights
movement and race riots and whatnot, but.
You know, it was, it was just, you know, the the African
American culture was just as much of my upbringing through my
friends. In retrospect, I probably got
along with them better than some of my other friends, which I
found interesting. I was like there was a natural
flow and rhythm and vibe and something that, you know, seemed
to be able to understand better. So even though you had a
self-proclaimed great adoptive family, you still had some
struggles. And you said in the book, I
can't ignore the fact that there were significant negative
effects on my life as a result of my abandonment.
What were those negative effects?
Yeah, I think, you know, I mean I the way I kind of try to
describe it in the book, you know is by.
You know, I I wrote the book for me.
Like, I just, I I was journaling.
I was going through a separation.
And you know, I mean I had a girlfriend from high school that
she would always say, you know what, no matter where you are or
who you're with, you'll always blend with them, Like you'll
change your personality, blend with them.
And I was like, you're crazy. I don't do that, you know?
And then she's like, yeah, you do.
I'm like, well, everybody does that a little bit.
I mean, I'm not gonna. You know, just gonna listen to
someone's opinion. I'm not gonna.
She's like, not like you. You're different.
You, you know. So she sensed that, you know,
you're a simulator, if you will. And I thought she was crazy.
And we still are good friends today.
And she's helped me through the, you know, through the book and
through some of the discoveries. And it's interesting that, you
know, she saw more of it than I did, even at the time.
But you know, I I think. In my mind, you know it's awful
hard to you know self psychoanalyze, but you know I
always did, you know quote UN quote the good thing I did, I
was a people pleaser. You know I think I, you know I
associated with people that my family would have associated
with. I dated girls that my family
would approve of. You know that I I kind of self
selected. Their preferences, you know, and
and I mentioned in the book, you know, that there were, you know,
there were African American women that I I dated in in
residency and it felt completely normal.
It felt completely, you know, we got along great.
But then when push came to shove and you know, there was a
orthopedic department dinner at some fancy place or whatever.
You know, I'd find a date that wasn't necessary.
You know that to bring it just I felt the awkwardness of it and I
couldn't explain it. You know that that division
between my preferences and other people's preferences, and I do
think it was palpable once again in retrospect.
I mean, I do think there is inner subconscious workings that
identify your kind, your tribe to.
You. And you know, you, you, you
sense the things that are similar.
You sense the things that are different.
And then there's those social pressures, You know, there's
your, your natural, you know, your natural preferences and
then your social preferences. And I mean, I was heavily
dominated by my social pressures.
Yeah, I complied. I I You know.
Was a quote, UN quote, good kid. I did everything I was told.
I went to, you know, you got to find yourself a nice Italian
girl, a nice girl, you know. And I'm sure we all have that to
a certain extent. But I mean, to me that was, you
know, a really huge regret, if you will, that, you know, there
were plenty of people that I got along with, had good
relationships with, but the social pressures kept me from
ever kicking it up a notch. Went back to, you know, all my
parents like her, my she gets along with my grandparents, she
just those kinds of things. But it it was always a push pull
for me. Yeah, definitely.
Even though, like culturally and academically and socially, you
know, like what I put into the nurture category, you know, from
the standpoint of nurture, that's all I had was my nurture.
You know I didn't have natural Jack, if you will.
That I was off balance in the nature nurture department,
heavily in favor of nurture and what I was taught and what I was
expected to do under these constraints.
I felt this pull, this whatever, even me going to college, me
doing the travelling and you know, I left home and always
loved my home. We would always go home, but I
was always looking for more during the service.
I went to Japan. I was.
You know, everything was was, you know, it was an exciting
life in a lot of ways, but it was an unfulfilling life, I
would say in a lot of respects, not completely, but you know, to
an extent. Right.
And it seemed like you excelled in everything you, you know, you
try to do like school and you know, like you were good at
sports and everything that that kind of they were expecting.
You excelled in all those areas. So in a way you kind of feel
like, oh, well, I must be going in the right direction because
these things are all kind of working for me.
But at the same time, internally you're like something's off.
Yeah. And like I said, relationships
were always a struggle for me. You know, it's like I would
start dating someone and I'm like, she's nice.
I like, you know, it was I I really had a commitment issue.
I had a. You know, I think it was
somewhat of a cognitive dissonance between what I was
looking for and what I thought I was looking for and what I was
finding. And, you know, so I I think, you
know, even with my marriage and subsequent divorce, and, you
know, I mean, I look back at that as a huge failure on my
part. I look back at that as a huge
embarrassment, a huge, you know, I mean, in a lot of ways I had
the perfect life. And I I mean, I guess if
anything, you know, some of the comments on the book or you
know, someone wrote and and they defended me.
They said some might look at this and say he's he's, you
know, into himself, he's whatever.
Narcissist. I'm bragging about my
accomplishments, if you will. But I think it was more I picked
the stories that I wanted to talk about and I wanted to
portray it as despite the fact that everything was so great.
That the family was great, you know, and I think it's, you
know, one of like the bigger you are, the harder the bigger they
are, the harder they fall, you know, all these successes and
all this wonderful stuff. And then when, you know, my, my
wife actually initiated the, the search for my birth mother, I
wasn't interested. I had a, you know, I had an
event when I was in when I was 31.
I was in residency. And I had a blind date.
And she was also adopted. And she was the one who first
started blowing away the fog. And she's like, you need to read
Betty Jean Lifton. Jordan adopted himself.
And I freaking hate that book. I That book just knocked me into
a funk that I'd never experienced.
And then I buried it again. I went voluntarily, went back in
the fog. And during that time I tried to
find my mother. And then there was a false alarm
so that when my wife, you know, when my ex-wife wanted to
initiate it, you know, we were recently married and she was
pregnant soon after the marriage.
You know, she did the right thing as a mom.
And she's like, don't you wanna find your birth mother?
And I'm like, no, 'cause it was horrible for me the first time.
I just was. I said I I'm too busy to do this
stuff. I don't have time for all this
emotion. Right.
And so she didn't. She's like, well, don't you
wanna find your medical history? I'm like, no, I'm healthy.
I'm 32 years old. I don't know, I was probably 40
at the time, 40 years old. I I'm, I'm healthy.
I don't have anything. I, you know.
And what about the kids? Like, no, no, no, no, no no.
And then eventually she was like, what if I get the
paperwork, You know, this went over.
Get the paperwork and fill it out where you sign it.
So I'm like, sure, whatever, you know, And I didn't think it was
going to work. I didn't think that they would
find her. I didn't, you know, I just was.
I was just trying to keep the peace.
But, you know, when it did happen, once again, I stayed in
the fog. I stayed in the, oh, this is
great. This is wonderful.
Just, you know, couldn't have been, but it just started the
process. So what happened?
How did you find her? Yeah, she filled out the
paperwork. Yeah, I filled out the
paperwork. My daughter was born.
My daughter was a little over 2 years old.
And then the state called me and they said, you know, we got your
paperwork, we're going to look into it.
And I'm like, oh, jeez, it took you almost three years.
You're not working too hard over there at the, you know.
And I said I was not. I was not.
Aware of, you know, the difficulties that many people
have and getting your original birth certificate, I was
content, you know, you know, So when they called, same thing.
I was like, really? You know, she called me and then
I was like, OK, she's like, we're going to look into it, you
know? And literally three days later
she said, OK, we found your mother.
Here's her name or address or e-mail or phone number.
She says call her. She doesn't have a problem.
She sounds nice. And then the woman was like.
You know, woman on the phone, she's like, oh, and it seems
like at least one of your parents was African American.
And you know, I mean, that was a huge thing to find out on the
phone, you know, right. Drop that bomb.
But you know, but at the time, like I said, despite not
knowing, it was like, I knew it was like, I knew this was
coming. I didn't surprise you.
It No shit. You know, I knew this was going
to happen. I knew that's what they were
going to say. Totally believable, you know, I
didn't doubt it or anything, you know.
So you know, once again that put me in the you know, my nature
knew, even though my nurture had was layers of concrete and
whatever rebar like this thick nurtured shell.
Over top of my natural self that was sometimes a light veil and
sometimes a heavy, you know, armor around it.
But it was there. It was in me.
I knew, quote UN quote, knew the truth that you know Nancy
Verrier's book, you know the primal wound.
So many adoptees when they read that are like, Oh yes, yes,
yeah. You know, it totally makes
sense. And I think we totally carried
that with us as well. And once again, it's buried.
It's, it's, it's laid under a facade so that even though you
feel it, you know it, you sense it.
There's a, there's a mourning, there's a a sadness, there's a
loss. But you can't describe it.
You're like, what is that? You know, when you hear, you
know, you hear of this kind of wound, you're like, absolutely.
You know, and you talk to other people and they're like, come
on, you're a baby. How do you know that?
I don't know how I know it. But, you know, similar animals
have very impressive skills and you know, Monarch butterfly,
they leave El Capistrano and start going north and it's four
or five or six butterflies later that know to go back to El
Capistrano, yeah. How do they know they're
freaking butterflies? And if a butterfly with its
small brain and and, you know, primordial instincts can figure
that out, come on, don't tell me that we don't have those as
well. Well, that's the whole social
narrative that's been put out, you know, by the adoption
industry and, you know, everybody's bought into it.
So that's why we have to start educating the world on what
we're talking about right now. Absolutely, yeah.
So your family joked about finding under a rock, and I had
to laugh because that's just so Italian, something that an
Italian would say. But you talk about your feelings
and you said that you felt like you didn't have a birthday.
Right. What did you mean about that?
Well, it it's, you know, everyone had a birthday.
Everyone has a birthday. But it wasn't until I had my
kids and I, you know, Chapter 6 is, you know, the start of Part
2, entitled Nature. So Chapter 6, I get married,
start my family, have my child, meet my mother, all those
things. And, you know, and I go into, I
try to be funny and I don't know if I succeed or not, but I talk
about the the whole trip to the hospital, you know, and it's all
this little quirkiness is and I mean that's our, that's our
little thing. You know, it's like daddy didn't
want to go to the hospital. He didn't think I was ready to
deliver. And and I was, I don't know if
it was subconscious or whatever, but, you know, I didn't want to
be in the hospital too long. I spent enough time in the
hospital and I could deliver a baby if I had to, you know, So
maybe I was a little slower or just, you know, But then, you
know, when my daughter was born, suddenly all that hesitation,
all that build up, all those funny things that I did, that my
wife did that. You know, all the things that
happened on the birthday before she was born, you know, me
stopping at a convenience store to get a coffee and, you know,
just those are all a part of her birthday, my daughter's birthday
and back. And when we say that, you know,
I have a friend, his last, you know, he's he's an orthopaedic
surgeon. His last name is Wong and my
daughter was conceived at the Wong wedding.
You know, got married. And so we always joke about
that. It's like you were you were
conceived at the Wong wedding, Hun and she's like, daddy, I'm
sick of that story, you know. But it's those things that you
know, we know approximately when she was conceived.
We know, you know, there's the build up we know when we met.
We know, you know, she knows, you know, stories about me
dating back to my childhood and stories of her mother dating
back to her childhood, which connects my daughter to us.
You know, not just the birthday, but.
All those things before and when you think about it, all those
thousands of years before through evolution, you know,
through this family, that family, your family tree, you
have a connection to your past. Whereas adoptees, you know, for
me and I, I describe it as my got day, you know, and it's like
my mother would say, I remember the day we got you.
And I loved hearing that story and it was great.
And tell it again, Mommy, you know.
But then I think about it. It's just like, but I didn't
have a birthday. I don't know what happened on my
birthday. And I don't know how Larry.
I don't know how Larry enjoys Matt.
I don't know what kind of relationship they had.
I didn't know about her family. I didn't know about his family.
You know all those roots that that tie you to something that
intimately lead you to something good or bad?
Quote UN quote good or. Not only that, but it's like the
day that you were born is probably.
It wasn't a happy, celebrated day.
It was a sad day for your birth mother and for every, you know,
there wasn't relatives waiting there to hold you and nurture
you and, you know, give you all the things that you needed it.
That's not what happened on that day, most likely, you know, so
it's all that wrapped up into one.
And I always feel like I got dropped off by the stork or
something, you know, like I I never had a birth.
You don't hear that story. And then when I finally met my
birth mother and she told me the story, I remember asking her,
but I can't remember the story. And it it meant so much to me to
know, but I don't remember it. It was almost like too much to
remember. Yeah, but.
But then the story of the rock, you know, it's funny to me that
I can envision that rock. Like I could draw.
I mean, if I was a good artist, I could draw a picture of that
rock. Where my parents found me, like
in my memory, it's a false memory.
But they told me the story that they found me under a rock and I
can picture the rock and like I said in the book, it's the rock
is in a desert. And I don't know if that's
symbolic or whatever, but it's the wide open desert with
nothing around it and an isolated rock that I was sitting
under, you know? And I also think that I have
memories of being in a crib in the orphanage once again.
Are these false memories? Are they real memories?
Are they? But that became a part of my
history, you know, these false memories, you know, like in my
brain, like my brain doesn't know.
You know, I was a neuroscience major and you know, I try to
think at that level. You know, what is this
primordial new infant brain doing?
It's just been in you know it's been bonding with the mother
inside the womb and hearing her voice and.
Seeing visions through the abdominal wall, feeling the
heartbeat, the electric, you know, the vibe, the chemistry,
the I mean, just so the smells, the tastes that are you that
your dirt, that your soil, you know.
And suddenly you're born and it's like, boom, under the heat
lamp, into the nursery, into the orphanage, this nurse, that
nurse, this caretaker, that caretaker.
You're just like, What the heck is going on?
You know and the point at that point is is extremely malleable
and extremely like the learning that takes place in the first
two years. We can't compare to that
nowadays, you know, as a as a as an adult.
So that's a very influential period and you know, all those
inner, you know, initial learning things and I could
picture myself, you know, being a kiss ass to the nurses and
trying to you know. Smile or I don't know what
cuddle. Just trying to get some
attention like all the other kids were trying to do in the
orphanage. And that becomes your first, you
know, compensatory reaction to your environment.
You know that? OK, all right.
This is getting me food. This is getting me held a little
longer. This is the trial and error
situation. Did you think about any of that
when you had your daughter? Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely. And then we also did a number of
trips to, we went to Madagascar on a mission trip where we were
in orphanages with 300 orphans. And I mean, it was just painful
for me to see this and to realize that, you know what's
separating me from them, really. You know, I'm here to help them
and fix their feet and, you know, their hips and, you know,
just. That they're looking at me and
I'm looking at them like I want to know more about you guys,
what's going on with you. It was just too close for
comfort to really to see that. And then, you know, and I think
we did the first or we did the trips after I'd found my birth
mother. So it was.
I was creeping out of the fog. And, you know, trying to come to
terms. And I I put Betty Jean Lifton's
book down and never wanted to look at it again after I read it
the first time, you know. But of course, I always kept it
with me. I always knew where it was.
I did. I still have it now but refused
to look at it because it just it just disrupted me so much from
this this ideal. So when you met your birth
mother, is that when that shell started cracking and you started
coming out of the fog at that point or?
I would say probably not. I think I still tried to bury it
in there. We reunited and it was fine.
It was perfect, you know, not a lot of pressure.
We found it out and we were writing back and forth, these
long emails and long conversations and it was just
like, you know, my compatriot, I, I felt the the bond.
And then it was Mother's Day where she sent me an e-mail.
And she's like, you know, you know, hey, from your, your, your
other mother. And I was like, you know, the
heels, the heels dug in, It just got too real.
I'm like, no, I have a mother. I love my mother.
I can't be. We can't see each other anymore.
Kind of thing. It was me that really put the
brakes on and, you know, turned tail and ran, Yeah, wow.
And I said I went back into the fog for another 10 years.
And, you know, during that period, it was constantly on my
mind. It was constantly.
You know, the marriage wasn't going well.
It just was communication was horrible.
And I'm like, this isn't my life.
This isn't my life. It's a great life.
It's a fantastic life. I don't know what is wrong with
me, what is wrong with me. And it was always in my head,
and I was. You know we lived on a in a old
farm we had 100 plus acres and I'm a brush hog in the field and
being Farmer Jack and thinking just like who am I and all these
things. So then eventually the marriage
we separated and she went N to Rhode Island back home and I
went S to a job in North Carolina.
So it was a complete dramatic, you know, and it's like, I
didn't hate her. I didn't have, it just wasn't
whatever. Wasn't what you wanted you.
Yeah. You know, so then I ended up
down in North Carolina and thinking, thinking, thinking.
And then I decided that I need to find my father's side of the
story. And I think that was the real,
you know, I met the family, found out about him, recognize
the similarities between me and that family, between me and my
mother. And it's like, I think that's
when the fog finally cleared. And it was during that period
where I was journaling and writing the book and really
trying to figure it out, you know, So a lot of the chapters
are just me trying to relive my life as I lived it, you know?
And then I didn't know how the book was going to end.
I didn't know how it was, what my feelings were going to be.
I didn't know if I was going to be angry.
I didn't know. You know, a lot of it was
written after Chapter 10, which is the climax of the book where?
All the stuff hits the fan and you know, and we admit what they
knew, what they didn't know. And and yeah, let's talk about
that. So you there was a part where
you go to tell your adoptive parents that you found your
biological family. And the way you describe it in
the book is every adoptee's nightmare.
I think you know how it all went down.
But they had been keeping a secret from you as well.
So tell us what happened. Yeah, you know, I mean, like,
I've been going through this and I did confide with my sister
about it. And we were on the same page.
Like, we don't want to hurt mom and dad's feelings, You know, we
don't want to. But I'm feeling like, like
least. And like the nuns have been
lying to them all along, you know?
And I found out this stuff. And, you know, my blind date
said that the nuns lied to her parents.
So I was going under that assumption.
So, you know, I'm like, Lise, this is kind of funny.
I mean, it's like, it's just, no kidding.
The nuns lied. Of course they did.
You know, They want everything to be rosy, you know.
So I'm telling my sister and she's like, I don't think you
should tell him, Jack. And I'm like, I'll be fine.
Lise, you know, I try to be creative, I guess in my writing.
And I I talked about early in the book about a wasp nest,
where I'm going into the nest and Lisa's my sister's like,
don't do it, don't do it. And the wasp nest is really an
analogy for me going into the birth history, you know?
So we're sitting outside and, you know, I go inside to get
another bottle of wine because I needed my liquid courage to have
this conversation. And she comes in, she's like,
you're not doing this, are you? And I'm like, yeah, at least
it's going to be fine. We need this.
It's fine. We're grown-ups.
It's no big deal, blah, blah, blah.
So I go out and I tell it comes out and I'm like, you know, I
carry. Anne filled out the forms and I
found my birth mother. And my my mother's like, oh,
Jack. You know, just complete
disappointment. And I'm like, no, no, really,
it's good. It's like, wait, I'm not done,
you know? So I try to tell the story and
everyone's bawling, Everyone's crying, my father's sobbing, red
faced. Just ridiculous, you know?
And I'm like, what is the problem?
I just, I didn't say anything. I just said that I found them
and they were college kids, this and that.
And then, you know, through his sobs, he's like Jack.
We already knew that. And five people went to their
graves with that secret. And I'm like, what secret?
I didn't tell you a secret. There's no secrets that I
revealed yet. And, you know, then I'm like,
and then he's like, well, we had to tell everyone in the family
before we even brought you home. I'm like, what?
And then I'm like, that my father was black.
And he's like, yeah. And I was just like, you're
kidding me. Like, I've been like 50 years
with these feelings, with these thoughts, you know, 15 years of
searching and after hearing the Negro child comments and all
these realizations that I'm like, no kidding.
I mean, I should have known. I should have guessed.
I should have figured it out, you know, putting all the blame
on me, you know, and it's like and and the nuns, like these
poor nuns or my poor parents with these nuns lying.
To them. And they knew.
Yeah, we knew. Everyone knew.
Everyone in the family knew. And I'm like, it's like the
Truman Show. It was painful.
Yeah. So how did that play out between
the relationship with you and your adoptive parents?
After that, we did the usual Italian thing, put our heads
back in the sand, and just, you know, my mother called me two
days after that event and said, your father wants everything to
go back to the way it was. So that's what we did.
And, you know, so then I wrote the book.
I put the book on my laptop. I showed it to my sister, my
kids, some cousin, and I was fine with it there on the on my
laptop. But then when Roe V Wade was
overturned and you know, all these talking heads about
adoption and just after having gone through this, like I said,
despite the perfect quote, UN quote, perfect upbringing,
despite the social successes and the academic and the military
and all these things that were so good, I was still pretty
messed up over it. And I was the lucky one.
You know, you also hear these stories of foster homes and
abuse and drug abuse and and I'm like, no, this is no joke.
Adoption is heavy. It is long term damaging.
You know, I mean, there are good things that come out of the
trauma, You know, like in war, times of war, you'll hear these
great stories of people bonding together, but it's still
freaking war. And yeah, there were good
things. But and I'm not saying that it
would have been better with my, you know, it's like we all know
that it's not better. It's different, but it would
have been hugely different. You know, who would I have been?
And I I refer to that, that infant that was initially born,
I refer to that as my vanishing twin.
You're like, what would that guy have ended up as?
Yeah. It's a great analogy.
Yeah. Who would he have been and where
would he have gone? And you know, like this me that
I have now, it's just an actor. It's a, it's a response.
It's a, it's a. Survival response, Yeah.
A reflex to the trauma. It's a survival, you know.
And you know, he ran his ass off and and he, you know, always
worked hard and always, but he never felt comfortable just
sitting still and just being him.
Yeah, you know and I, and it's better if I think of it as
someone else rather than me. Yeah, definitely.
Now you split the book up into parts, the nature, nurture and
free will. What was the purpose of doing
that? I guess a lot of it was just my
some of my interests. And why was I interested?
And I don't know, but I've really gravitated to a lot of
behavioral neuroscientists, if you will.
Robert Wright was one of the first books that I read.
And there's a whole field of, you know, that genetics doesn't
just give you your eye color, your, you know, your cheekbones.
It gives you your personality and your cultural tendencies,
your stereotypes, whatever they are.
You know, those are just as genetically passed on as
anything else. You know, a Chihuahua acts like
a Chihuahua. A German Shepherd acts like a
German Shepherd. You don't see any Chihuahuas
walking around with German Shepherd Swagger.
You know they have a personality and an appearance, and they go
hand in hand with their needs. Nature and nurture are not
enemies. Everyone says nature versus
nurture. I did a lecture recently or
presentation, and I talked about that.
They're they're more like frenemies or you know each
other's nemesis. You know nature and nurture need
each other. They work together, simpatico.
They need each other. You know your appearance and
your personality complement each other.
And that, to me is authentic. Yeah, like this.
This Chihuahua looks like a Chihuahua.
Acts like a Chihuahua. He's a Chihuahua.
He's an authentic Chihuahua. You see some Chihuahua walking
around like a German Shepherd. You're like that dude's faking
it. He's trying to compensate.
You know he's got Napoleon syndrome.
True. Now, where does free will come
into this? I eventually talk about free
will as that control system, if you will.
You know you need your nature. You need your nurture, and it's
always a meandering path. And I liken free will to the
Ying and Yang symbol, that invisible line that is between
the light and the dark, the good and the bad, the nurture and the
nature. You know and I try to define
What I see is nature and what I see is nurture and it can be
interpreted different ways. You know some are some are
blends but you know I try to give examples of what I think is
nature, what I think is nurture and I think the free will, you
know, knowing your nature, knowing your nurture, the free
will decides. And early in the book, I some of
the stories like, may not make sense as to why I included them
in an adoption story. But I did think that they were
all related. Like, early in the book, I talk
about night. I was on call and I was dead
tired. I was beat.
I just wanted to sleep, I wanted to poop, I wanted to eat.
I don't know what I wanted to do, but I was tired physically.
My nature was screaming, you need sleep, you need whatever.
And then I walk in the emergency room and I see this trauma
patient with both of his legs broken, bone sticking out of the
skin. And I'm like, Oh my God, I can't
deal with this now. I'm too tired.
I'm just, I'm stressed. I smell.
I got to sleep. But then I start going into my
my nurturing. I start thinking about, OK, what
do we need to do? My nature wants to go to sleep
and say screw this, I'm leaving, I'm running away to home.
But then my nurture kicks in. OK, what do I got to do?
I got to check his pulses. I got to get the equipment in
the ORI, got to call X-ray. I got to, you know, I'm going
into my training. And to me that's the point where
you know my nature and my nurture and highly conflicting
situations. I had to do it.
I had to fix the guy. But then as I'm walking and I
see him and I'm like, I'm, I'm evaluating everything.
And I get to his head and they have the breathing tube pulled
out and I'm like, what's going on?
And it's like, oh, he's dead. And I'm like, yes, you know, my
nature jumped out and says, yes, I'm going to sleep.
And then I'm like, wait a minute, I just celebrated the
death of someone. But I got to sleep.
It's like in those moments. And I call that my my, my
superhuman moment, my Superman moment.
Not that I did anything tremendous.
I I looked horrible. You know the the optics of it
were horrible. But it's when that nature and
nurture were absolutely butting against each other whether that
be in time of war and you do something that is that is
harmful, something that is selfish, something that is
embarrassing in a time of war. And I think a lot of war
veterans come home and they battle with those moments when
your nature and your nurture, you're like you had to survive.
You just had to survive. You have to sleep, you have to
poop, You have to do the basic things that you need to do.
And sometimes your nurture doesn't allow you and you don't
look so good in those moments. So, you know, I put that, that
free will as those choices you make sometimes make you look
good on the nurture side. Some make you look bad because
you choose yourself and you're selfish things.
And I think, you know, everyone in the triad goes through those
moments. You know, our parents are like,
yeah, we got pregnant. What are we going to do?
Let's give it away and run away, you know?
And then the adoptive parents are like, well, we can't have
our own kids. What do we do?
Well, we take a kid and we pretend that he's ours.
And you know what I mean? It's those moments that you
don't always look so good being super.
It's not the Superman thing. Like, you know, the the
superhuman means that you were placed in a situation that had
so much force, so much stress in opposing directions, and you
kind of chose you because you had to survive.
You had to get back to school. You had to give the baby away
because it was, you know, just I, I I try to make that that
connection between those powerful forces.
And I try to do it in a creative way by telling stories as
opposed to lecturing to people because I'm not an expert on any
of it other than I've lived it. I'm not a psychologist, I'm not
a neuroscientist. I'm not an adoption counsellor.
But I think within all of our stories we have those.
If you look for them, you got those moments that are just
heart wrenching and I think just being able to subdivide them
into your natural self that needs to survive and your
nurtured self which needs to get along.
And sometimes you make good decisions, sometimes you make
bad decisions. But each had a purpose and a
pull that you have to forgive yourself over.
I mean it's it's just it it you can't second guess, you can't
play Monday morning quarterback. You got to take it as I did what
I had to do at the time. I had to do it to just get
through the next day. Yeah, I know.
For me, like when you were explaining the yin and the Yang
with the nature nurture and that line in the middle is free will,
I was thinking. I didn't have that line in the
middle. I didn't feel like I had that
line in the middle separating those two.
And so how messy does that get when there's no separation?
But that separation of free will is actually my authentic self.
So I'm taking a little bit from each, you know, each side, and
and then there's me. The actual me is that line in
the middle. You know, right?
You're the one making the decisions, but it needs to be an
informed decision. In order to achieve this perfect
utopian human existence, this, this balanced Nirvana in your
life, you need ultimate and infinite knowledge of of both
yourself and no one has that. You go with what you have and
unfortunately we don't have half of that.
So our meandering line is do I have ricotta cheese in my or do
I make them with, you know, dump?
You know, it's all in the nurture side of things.
Right. And you also said in your book
that writing it was your therapy.
Your 55 year old struggled to figure yourself out.
What did you learn about yourself from writing the book?
A ton? I've learned that, you know, I
was. I was inauthentic, A good part
of it. And that's that's a little
painful, You know, I made decisions for other people
instead of me. I benefited from it.
So maybe it was good for me to live for others and to be, you
know, a successful contributing member of society.
You know, I put F16 pilots back into the cockpit.
I took people who couldn't walk and I allowed them to walk.
You know what I mean? Like, I'm very proud of my
career and the things I've done, but I'm horribly embarrassed by,
you know, the the falling part of my marriage and that family
life that I grew up with. So close.
But now I don't have it. I'm here by myself, traveling in
the airport talking to you about who I am.
And I'm 57 and I want to go back to 201532.
I want to go back somewhere with the knowledge I have now.
Yeah, because now it's it's a little late.
Well, now there's that compassion that you were just
talking about. You gotta have some compassion
for yourself. I know.
But I'm just saying like those are the battling and you're
right. That and like I said I had it
good. I I am in a good situation but
it still is not easy and I'm not complaining about it.
You know, I I, I accept the challenge.
I'm I'm eager to to improve and to move forward.
But come on man. Just take the take the ball and
chain off a little earlier for me.
Give me a, give me a come on man.
Give me a chance you know give me give a brother a chance you
know. And I mean I think like I said
when I talk to my, I'm like I get why you did it but do you
understand the effect that it had And I think they do.
You know, I mean I'm. I'm actually contemplating the
sequel. I think, you know, just, you
know, me coming out to my parents and telling them that I
wrote the book, Oh my God, you know, the ulcer.
I'm going to go over that like I wrote the book.
And I'm not going to tell you how it works because I want to.
I want to work that a little better.
I'm going to work that in my brain a little bit because it
was powerful in so many ways and it has been a good thing.
It's been a nest thing. Like I I told my sister, you
know, we'll be fine. We need to do this and at the
time it did it, it didn't work out fine.
It wasn't good. But I think with a couple more
years and some more tears and and hardships it has become
better. That's good so.
Good. So I was like to close and ask
what advice do you have for struggling adoptees?
Yeah, I would say, you know, and I'm and I'm not, I'm not the
best at this. You know, it's like take it easy
on yourself. You know the sins you've
committed, quote UN quote, sins, you know, the the bad decisions
you've made in your life, the struggles you've had in your
life are not uncommon. And anyone in the same
situation, given the same circumstances, being adopted by
the same family, you know, with the same personality, would have
done the same thing that you did, even if there's things that
are embarrassing to you, even if there's things that are hurtful
to you, and then also just listen to that inner voice, like
the, like I said, that instinct voice that brings those
butterflies back. You have that.
But just listen to it. Be you.
Be you as best you can. And you're gonna fall and you're
gonna fail and you're gonna make mistakes.
But it's not a mistake. It's a correction.
You're like, oh, that was. That's not the person I need to
hang out with. You know that's not the job I
need. And unfortunately, we do this
back and forth much more than most.
Our trial and error has no road map.
But listen to it. When you find success, go with
it. Don't punish yourself more by
not going with your feelings. If there's someone that makes
you feel good, if there's someone that makes you feel
whole, if there's someone you you vibe with, you communicate
with, go with it. Yeah, it's for you.
And you know you're the only one who's gonna wake up with you
tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.
You know, you're the only one who's with you through every
chapter, every page, every word of the book.
You're with you, so take care of you.
Yeah, I think that's what you need to do.
Right. So where can we find your book?
Tell us, Anton or Barnes and Nobles?
Unfortunately, I don't. I should have a website and I
should have a lot of things, but I have a website on Ingenium
Books was I was very blessed to have them.
They were a great publisher and they promoted the book and we
got listed on the Wall Street Journal #1 Best seller for a
week. So it was, you know, the book
was on their website Ingenium ingeniumbooks.com.
You know, I have a page there and he said you can buy the book
on Barnes and Nobles or Amazon and it's not a a fact based
book. It's trying to be a a parable in
a way, you know, using certain stories to kind of exemplify the
experience so that hopefully people can live it.
Maybe it's better for someone who isn't adopted so they can
just live it. And I try to set it up and then
surprise them with things, you know, it's like, oh so great, oh
shit, what happened there, you know?
And then just, I didn't see that one coming, you know, because
that's how it happened to me, you know, it was just like,
whoa. Yeah, what I liked about it was,
like I said, I had all the emotions in it.
But you'd find so many adoptee books that are just so serious,
you know? And it's like, it was nice to
laugh at some of the things, you know.
I mean, it might piss some people off that I'm laughing
about it, but it's pretty funny a lot of the spots and it's just
like you got to laugh at some of those, you know, stuff that
doesn't feel so good. So it helps.
Oh, I know. And yeah, that does help, you
know, whistling through the graveyard and whatever.
Well, thanks so much for coming on today, Jack.
I appreciate it. I, you know, great to meet you
and and feel your personality and your intelligence.
I love it. So thank you.
Another amazing adoption story told today and I just can't help
but think of all of the parallel things that he said that I could
relate to so easily. Especially where he talks about
I have everything, why am I not happy?
I think so many adoptees can relate to that sentiment.
And most of the time we don't know why because of the
narrative that is out there that doesn't allow us to have our
feelings surrounding being adopted.
And I'm just so glad that the community is opening up now and
that we're telling our stories and that we're educating the
world. Make sure you get Jack's book.
The link is in the show notes. Even if you are not an adoptee.
It is such a great read. And if you are thinking of
telling your story on the podcast, do not be shy.
Send me an e-mail at Mind your own karma@gmail.com.
Find me on my website mindyourownkarma.com Socials
Facebook Instagram. You can DM me there.
Let's get your story on the podcast.
It's time for you to do your part in educating the world
about adoption. As always, take what you need
and leave what you don't. And always remember to mind your
own karma. I'll see you next time.