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Hey there, it's me, Melissa 
Brunetti, the host of Mind Your 

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Own Karma, The Adoption 
Chronicles. 

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And if you have been listening 
to this podcast for any amount 

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of time, you know part of my 
purpose is to educate the world 

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on the complexities of adoption.
And if you didn't know 

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yesterday, October 30th, was 
Adoptee Remembrance Day. 

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This is the day that we remember
those adoptees that have 

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completed suicide over the 
trauma they have felt from being

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adopted. 
The statistics are pretty 

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staggering. 
There was a 20 year old study 

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that showed that adolescent 
adoptees are four times more 

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likely to attempt suicide than 
non adoptees. 

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Males were 3.2 times increased 
risk and females were 4.8 times 

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increased risk for attempting 
suicide, and adult adoptees who 

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searched for biological family 
are at even higher risk for 

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psychological distress. 
If you feel you need immediate 

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help, please call the suicide 
and Crisis hotline at 988. 

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These are staggering and true 
statistics that need to be 

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addressed. 
November is Adoptee Awareness 

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Month, and if you have an 
adoptee or know an adoptee in 

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your life, I ask you that you 
join us, the adoptee community, 

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by educating yourselves on the 
complexities of adoption. 

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You can do that by listening to 
one of many of the adoptee 

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podcasts that are available. 
There are many books that are 

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autobiographies that you could 
read or even just Google 

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adoption trauma. 
It's time to educate the world 

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about these statistics. 
If you are struggling, it's 

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never too late to reach out for 
help. 

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Please again dial the Suicide 
and Crisis Lifeline AT988. 

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Hey there, it's Melissa 
Brunetti. 

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And welcome to the Mind Your Own
Karma Podcast. 

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Hey there, Karma crew. 
Thanks for joining me on another

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episode of Mind Your Own, Karma,
The Adoption Chronicles. 

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Today I have an adoptee and 
author, Doctor Jack Rocco, on 

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the show today. 
His book is called Recycled. 

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And let me tell you, it's 
different than a lot of the 

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other adoptee books that I have 
read. 

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It has laughter, it has you 
crying all the emotions in 

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between. 
It is an absolutely fantastic 

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book and it doesn't just talk 
about adoption. 

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There's so much more packed into
this book and I highly recommend

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it. 
But before we dive in, let me 

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tell you a little bit more about
Doctor Jack Rocco. 

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He has had more than 30 years 
practicing as an orthopaedic and

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cosmetic surgeon. 
His work has taken him to many 

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countries and cultures, 
including to Japan, where he 

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served in the US Air Force into 
Madagascar, where he established

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and helped treat hundreds of 
children with devastating 

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orthopaedic deformities, 
predominantly including clubfoot

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Recycled. 
His first book chronicles the 

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behind the scenes reluctant and 
subconscious journey exploring 

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the impact of being relinquished
and adopted during the Baby 

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Scoop era of the mid 60s. 
As he eventually finds his birth

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families, he also finds himself 
he maintains homes outside of 

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Charlotte, NC and Hartford, CT 
Jack is a pretty busy man being 

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a surgeon and he had to do this 
interview in the airport, so you

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may hear some background noise 
as he was generously squeezing 

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in this interview into his busy 
schedule. 

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Here is my interview with Jack 
Rocco. 

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So we are welcoming Jack Rocco 
to the show. 

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Hello there. 
Hey, Melissa. 

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How are you? 
I'm great. 

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So you wrote a book called 
Recycled and it explains the 

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complexities of adoption so 
well. 

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I laughed, I cried and every 
emotion in between reading the 

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book and I just loved it. 
And I'm just wondering why the 

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name Recycled. 
Well, that was that came from my

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grandfather. 
You know, I had the the. 

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Immigrant first generation, you 
know, immigrant grandfather who,

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you know came to this country 
and you know, he didn't talk so 

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good as they would say in Erie, 
PA So you know, he that was his 

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word and he used it more in 
terms of, you know, any kid in 

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the family that wasn't 
tradition, you know, like. 

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If it was a stepchild or 
girlfriend's previous 

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relationship. 
So it was these kids that were, 

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you know, not your traditional 
husband, wife, family situation.

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And I'd never heard the word. 
You know, we were very close 

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growing up and you know, it's 
probably in my late 20s when I 

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first heard him use the word. 
And I describe it in the book. 

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You know we were. 
Fixing a grandfather clock. 

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He would make cabinets for 
grandfather clocks in his 

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basement. 
And I helped him and we were 

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always together and we were 
fixing a clock one day. 

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And he's like, you know, Jack, I
think we got more recycled kids 

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in the family now than we got 
our own. 

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And I was like, yeah, I know 
Papa, you know, and and I kind 

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of. 
I think I kind of did the 

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typical, you know, like 
society's going to pots. 

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It's not your usual. 
I think my reaction to it was, 

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you know, a little bit 
derogatory perhaps just, you 

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know, I know the world's 
changing. 

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It's not traditional. 
I'm like, I know, Papa, what are

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you gonna do, you know? 
And and that was it. 

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But, you know, then I was 
familiar with the word. 

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And I I talk about in the book 
when he passed away, they. 

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Put me in charge of writing his 
eulogy, which was a huge 

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emotional thing for me. 
And you know when when he we 

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were so close, I can't even tell
you And you know, So I spent the

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day after he died just driving 
around my hometown of Erie and 

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just going through all the 
memories of. 

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You know I'd go went into his 
workshop and just looked around 

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and found little things that he 
had worked on and went to the 

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lake where we would fish. 
I went to the 84 lumber place 

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where we go and get supplies and
just all these memories came 

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flushing by. 
And then at some point you know,

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the idea of the recycled child 
came into my thoughts, you know 

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and the and the kid, you know, I
had everybody include in their 

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their comments in the in the 
eulogy. 

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That was the first time, you 
know, I was probably 323132 and 

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I thought and I'm like, you know
what, I was recycled as well. 

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And like I was the original 
recycled kid, the OG of 

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recycled. 
And you know, so it's it kind of

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shocked me that you know, I had 
assimilated. 

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I think I had a great childhood 
growing up and. 

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You know, really loved them and 
and loved the experience. 

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So when, you know, when that 
struck me, I was just like, wow,

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you know, it's like I kind of 
gave a little bit of a 

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derogatory feeling or sense. 
I wasn't sure what he wanted me 

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to say about that, you know, 
because, you know, the word 

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could be taken as, you know, 
somewhat derogatory. 

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And then I thought about it and 
I'm like, you know what? 

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I was recycled. 
And I never felt that way. 

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And I don't think any, you know,
all the kids. 

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I had everybody write it down on
a piece of paper, things that he

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had told them or taught them, 
and it was hysterical and it was

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hysterical and it was 
consistent. 

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You know, the thing my, my, my 
father and uncle told about him 

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and my generation and the 
generation after me and the 

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little kids, you know, he was 
just universally, you know, 

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loved and appreciated. 
And no one took the term as as 

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derogatory. 
It was just, you know, his 

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getting it across. 
Right. 

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The Italian vocabulary no 
filter. 

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I absolutely would. 
Give it So what do you know 

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about your adoption, the 
circumstances around why you 

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were put up for adoption? 
Yeah, my, my parents were. 

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It ended up being pretty much 
the classic story that a lot of 

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people heard. 
That they were, you know, young 

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college kids, was a a brief 
relationship. 

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Whether that was one date, two 
dates, I don't know. 

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I didn't. 
I didn't really dig. 

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You know, some things are my 
business, some things weren't. 

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But you know, my mother pretty 
much commented that, you know, 

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it's a brief relationship. 
And you know, she found out she 

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was pregnant and walked down 
Main Street of Mansfield, PA and

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he was practicing football on 
the field. 

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And we walked this walk with her
once I reunited with her. 

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So it's kind of neat to be able 
to envision it happening, you 

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know 40 years year. 
You know, she told him of of the

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pregnancy. 
And I don't think getting 

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married was an option. 
So, you know, she did the 

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typical went away to a, you 
know, home for wayward women. 

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And you know, which was in Erie,
PA, she probably lived about 

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four hours away. 
So, you know, she went away to 

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visit an aunt, had me, gave me 
away, relinquished me, and then 

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went back home. 
And it was her senior year, so 

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her. 
Her career was a little 

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sidetracked and she ended up 
going to grad school afterwards 

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and just eventually got married 
but never had any other 

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children. 
OK, so you're her only child. 

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Yeah. 
Wow. 

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So why did your adoptive parents
want to adopt? 

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Do you know? 
Why did they choose to adopt? 

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Mother had endometriosis, so she
was unable to conceive, which 

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you know in an Italian family 
with kids crawling all over the 

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floor everywhere that was, you 
know, I'm sure a huge 

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disappointment for them and you 
know, I don't, I know there's a 

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range of of feelings on. 
You know, adoptive parents and I

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never had the sense that there 
was any anything wrong with what

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they did. 
It was common for the day and 

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it's what they did. 
And you know, me and my sister 

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were integrated in the family 
very well. 

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You know, I think we both, quote
UN quote, looked Italian. 

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You know, we had a little darker
eyes, darker hair, a little 

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darker complexion. 
But in retrospect, I mean, of 

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course I did have. 
You know, feelings of adoption 

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and feelings of curiosity. 
But you know, we were told right

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along you were loved. 
And I remember my mother sitting

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me, you know, sitting on the bed
next to me, putting me to sleep 

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as a child. 
And you know, it's just telling 

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me how much she loved me and how
much they went through to get me

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and how they appreciate, you 
know, all those things. 

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So you know, I was, I was on 
board with it and and I think it

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was, it was true. 
Did you ever remember being told

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you were adopted, or did you 
always know? 

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I don't, Yeah. 
I kind of always knew. 

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And I remember, if anything, I 
remember being the one who told 

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my other cousins. 
You know, we had, we had 11 

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cousins in my generation, 
including me. 

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And I remember sitting 
underneath dining room tables or

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you know, in in the backyard and
telling people I was adopted and

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I was the oldest, the oldest 
boy. 

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And we all got along and and I 
also had an uncle who was 

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adopted maybe you know, two 
decades before or more. 

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And I was very close with him as
well. 

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So there was no stigma, there 
was no teasing that I recall. 

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I mean I assimilated. 
I was, you know, in retrospect I

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00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,480
call probably a hyper 
assimilator. 

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00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,920
You know I was, I was more 
quote, UN quote more Italian 

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00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,520
than. 
Than most Italians, I guess. 

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00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,560
You know, I mean, I had the the 
Italian horn and the red, white 

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and green flag T-shirts and you 
know, kiss me, I'm Italian. 

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And you know, but we were, we 
were completely surrounded by 

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it. 
And in Erie that was common. 

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So I I loved it. 
I really did. 

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Yeah, I had the same. 
And I don't know about you, but 

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in my Italian adoptive family, 
it's almost like it never 

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00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,280
crosses their mind. 
Like it's like you're part of 

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00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:34,720
the family and that's it. 
Like. 

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Yeah, it doesn't. 
I don't know. 

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00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,240
I've never felt different. 
Did you ever feel different? 

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I, you know, like I said 
subconsciously I recall you 

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00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,880
know, looking at other kids, you
know, I had really poofy hair, 

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you know, Brillo pad head, you 
know, was teased about that a 

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00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,320
little bit and. 
You know, I also, you know, like

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00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,320
in retrospect I, you know, 
especially during my teen years,

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I had bad dandruff. 
You know, my head, my scalp was 

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00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,720
always itchy and I would just, 
you know, I had the selts in 

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00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,280
blue and the head and shoulders 
and trying to get rid of my 

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00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,840
dandruff and it just, you know, 
it was really irritated scalp. 

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And then in retrospect, you 
know, it was I had a different 

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00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:19,080
type of hair that needed more 
moisturizer and versus you know,

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I could wash it all day long. 
I was just making it worse. 

224
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,040
So some of those things that. 
You know, 'cause it turns out 

225
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,840
that I was, I was mixed race. 
You know that I'm not Italian. 

226
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,720
And, you know, wasn't until 
coming out of the fog when you 

227
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,600
know, I, I, I say in the book, 
you know, it's like when the dam

228
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,560
burst, when I found my birth 
mother and and when she 

229
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:43,600
relinquished me in court, I had 
the court transcripts. 

230
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,160
And the judge asked her, you 
know, Are you Joyce? 

231
00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,040
Yes, Sir. 
Are you the mother of this Negro

232
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,440
child? 
You know the transcript. 

233
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,160
And I was like. 
Who's the neat? 

234
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,120
You know, it's like it was 
shocking this. 

235
00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,120
You're looking around. 
Yeah, this is the neat. 

236
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:02,880
Who's he talking about? 
Did she have another baby? 

237
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,200
Like what? 
You know. 

238
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,480
So you know, Then I was like, no
wonder I had the hair. 

239
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,680
No wonder I had the dandruff. 
You know, I just kept washing. 

240
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:16,640
No wonder I had, you know, like.
You know, my friends would say I

241
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,080
had a bubble butt or you know, I
had some, you know, like all the

242
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,720
stereotypes. 
And and my school was, was a 

243
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,880
diverse school, high school, 
middle school. 

244
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,160
I had close friends. 
I played sports, I ran track and

245
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,000
played football and I got along 
great with them. 

246
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,000
I didn't have any points of 
contention. 

247
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,240
And you know, this is soon after
a lot of the civil rights 

248
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:44,000
movement and race riots and 
whatnot, but. 

249
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,320
You know, it was, it was just, 
you know, the the African 

250
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,880
American culture was just as 
much of my upbringing through my

251
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,880
friends. 
In retrospect, I probably got 

252
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,720
along with them better than some
of my other friends, which I 

253
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,920
found interesting. 
I was like there was a natural 

254
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:09,720
flow and rhythm and vibe and 
something that, you know, seemed

255
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,920
to be able to understand better.
So even though you had a 

256
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,760
self-proclaimed great adoptive 
family, you still had some 

257
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,440
struggles. 
And you said in the book, I 

258
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,520
can't ignore the fact that there
were significant negative 

259
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,360
effects on my life as a result 
of my abandonment. 

260
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,360
What were those negative 
effects? 

261
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:33,360
Yeah, I think, you know, I mean 
I the way I kind of try to 

262
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,680
describe it in the book, you 
know is by. 

263
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:39,840
You know, I I wrote the book for
me. 

264
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,800
Like, I just, I I was 
journaling. 

265
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:43,480
I was going through a 
separation. 

266
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,600
And you know, I mean I had a 
girlfriend from high school that

267
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,600
she would always say, you know 
what, no matter where you are or

268
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,880
who you're with, you'll always 
blend with them, Like you'll 

269
00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,240
change your personality, blend 
with them. 

270
00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,640
And I was like, you're crazy. 
I don't do that, you know? 

271
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:01,800
And then she's like, yeah, you 
do. 

272
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,880
I'm like, well, everybody does 
that a little bit. 

273
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,440
I mean, I'm not gonna. 
You know, just gonna listen to 

274
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:07,640
someone's opinion. 
I'm not gonna. 

275
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,640
She's like, not like you. 
You're different. 

276
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,920
You, you know. 
So she sensed that, you know, 

277
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,040
you're a simulator, if you will.
And I thought she was crazy. 

278
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,200
And we still are good friends 
today. 

279
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,920
And she's helped me through the,
you know, through the book and 

280
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,200
through some of the discoveries.
And it's interesting that, you 

281
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,800
know, she saw more of it than I 
did, even at the time. 

282
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,880
But you know, I I think. 
In my mind, you know it's awful 

283
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:43,920
hard to you know self 
psychoanalyze, but you know I 

284
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,480
always did, you know quote UN 
quote the good thing I did, I 

285
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,440
was a people pleaser. 
You know I think I, you know I 

286
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,200
associated with people that my 
family would have associated 

287
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,880
with. 
I dated girls that my family 

288
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,560
would approve of. 
You know that I I kind of self 

289
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:08,400
selected. 
Their preferences, you know, and

290
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,119
and I mentioned in the book, you
know, that there were, you know,

291
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,119
there were African American 
women that I I dated in in 

292
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,000
residency and it felt completely
normal. 

293
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,440
It felt completely, you know, we
got along great. 

294
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,720
But then when push came to shove
and you know, there was a 

295
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,600
orthopedic department dinner at 
some fancy place or whatever. 

296
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,480
You know, I'd find a date that 
wasn't necessary. 

297
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,000
You know that to bring it just I
felt the awkwardness of it and I

298
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,000
couldn't explain it. 
You know that that division 

299
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:49,240
between my preferences and other
people's preferences, and I do 

300
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,440
think it was palpable once again
in retrospect. 

301
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,440
I mean, I do think there is 
inner subconscious workings that

302
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,360
identify your kind, your tribe 
to. 

303
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,120
You. 
And you know, you, you, you 

304
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:06,760
sense the things that are 
similar. 

305
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,480
You sense the things that are 
different. 

306
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,120
And then there's those social 
pressures, You know, there's 

307
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:16,160
your, your natural, you know, 
your natural preferences and 

308
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,720
then your social preferences. 
And I mean, I was heavily 

309
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,840
dominated by my social 
pressures. 

310
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,560
Yeah, I complied. 
I I You know. 

311
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,760
Was a quote, UN quote, good kid.
I did everything I was told. 

312
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,520
I went to, you know, you got to 
find yourself a nice Italian 

313
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,840
girl, a nice girl, you know. 
And I'm sure we all have that to

314
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,360
a certain extent. 
But I mean, to me that was, you 

315
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:46,400
know, a really huge regret, if 
you will, that, you know, there 

316
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,360
were plenty of people that I got
along with, had good 

317
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,760
relationships with, but the 
social pressures kept me from 

318
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,920
ever kicking it up a notch. 
Went back to, you know, all my 

319
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,920
parents like her, my she gets 
along with my grandparents, she 

320
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,280
just those kinds of things. 
But it it was always a push pull

321
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,680
for me. 
Yeah, definitely. 

322
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,640
Even though, like culturally and
academically and socially, you 

323
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,840
know, like what I put into the 
nurture category, you know, from

324
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,960
the standpoint of nurture, 
that's all I had was my nurture.

325
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,000
You know I didn't have natural 
Jack, if you will. 

326
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,080
That I was off balance in the 
nature nurture department, 

327
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,920
heavily in favor of nurture and 
what I was taught and what I was

328
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,960
expected to do under these 
constraints. 

329
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,640
I felt this pull, this whatever,
even me going to college, me 

330
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,800
doing the travelling and you 
know, I left home and always 

331
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,400
loved my home. 
We would always go home, but I 

332
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,800
was always looking for more 
during the service. 

333
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,400
I went to Japan. 
I was. 

334
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,760
You know, everything was was, 
you know, it was an exciting 

335
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:58,400
life in a lot of ways, but it 
was an unfulfilling life, I 

336
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,400
would say in a lot of respects, 
not completely, but you know, to

337
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,400
an extent. 
Right. 

338
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,560
And it seemed like you excelled 
in everything you, you know, you

339
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,720
try to do like school and you 
know, like you were good at 

340
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,280
sports and everything that that 
kind of they were expecting. 

341
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,120
You excelled in all those areas.
So in a way you kind of feel 

342
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,480
like, oh, well, I must be going 
in the right direction because 

343
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,440
these things are all kind of 
working for me. 

344
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,360
But at the same time, internally
you're like something's off. 

345
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,320
Yeah. 
And like I said, relationships 

346
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,800
were always a struggle for me. 
You know, it's like I would 

347
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,480
start dating someone and I'm 
like, she's nice. 

348
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,040
I like, you know, it was I I 
really had a commitment issue. 

349
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,560
I had a. 
You know, I think it was 

350
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,280
somewhat of a cognitive 
dissonance between what I was 

351
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,560
looking for and what I thought I
was looking for and what I was 

352
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,400
finding. 
And, you know, so I I think, you

353
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,960
know, even with my marriage and 
subsequent divorce, and, you 

354
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,880
know, I mean, I look back at 
that as a huge failure on my 

355
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,920
part. 
I look back at that as a huge 

356
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,640
embarrassment, a huge, you know,
I mean, in a lot of ways I had 

357
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,320
the perfect life. 
And I I mean, I guess if 

358
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,000
anything, you know, some of the 
comments on the book or you 

359
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,000
know, someone wrote and and they
defended me. 

360
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,320
They said some might look at 
this and say he's he's, you 

361
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,000
know, into himself, he's 
whatever. 

362
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,000
Narcissist. 
I'm bragging about my 

363
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,120
accomplishments, if you will. 
But I think it was more I picked

364
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,680
the stories that I wanted to 
talk about and I wanted to 

365
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:34,200
portray it as despite the fact 
that everything was so great. 

366
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,200
That the family was great, you 
know, and I think it's, you 

367
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,440
know, one of like the bigger you
are, the harder the bigger they 

368
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,840
are, the harder they fall, you 
know, all these successes and 

369
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,320
all this wonderful stuff. 
And then when, you know, my, my 

370
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,160
wife actually initiated the, the
search for my birth mother, I 

371
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,440
wasn't interested. 
I had a, you know, I had an 

372
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,160
event when I was in when I was 
31. 

373
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,280
I was in residency. 
And I had a blind date. 

374
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,880
And she was also adopted. 
And she was the one who first 

375
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,520
started blowing away the fog. 
And she's like, you need to read

376
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,600
Betty Jean Lifton. 
Jordan adopted himself. 

377
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:23,000
And I freaking hate that book. 
I That book just knocked me into

378
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,200
a funk that I'd never 
experienced. 

379
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,800
And then I buried it again. 
I went voluntarily, went back in

380
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,720
the fog. 
And during that time I tried to 

381
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,400
find my mother. 
And then there was a false alarm

382
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,800
so that when my wife, you know, 
when my ex-wife wanted to 

383
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,520
initiate it, you know, we were 
recently married and she was 

384
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,200
pregnant soon after the 
marriage. 

385
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,040
You know, she did the right 
thing as a mom. 

386
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,240
And she's like, don't you wanna 
find your birth mother? 

387
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:51,200
And I'm like, no, 'cause it was 
horrible for me the first time. 

388
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,920
I just was. 
I said I I'm too busy to do this

389
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,240
stuff. 
I don't have time for all this 

390
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,720
emotion. 
Right. 

391
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,240
And so she didn't. 
She's like, well, don't you 

392
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,760
wanna find your medical history?
I'm like, no, I'm healthy. 

393
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,080
I'm 32 years old. 
I don't know, I was probably 40 

394
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,920
at the time, 40 years old. 
I I'm, I'm healthy. 

395
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,240
I don't have anything. 
I, you know. 

396
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,000
And what about the kids? 
Like, no, no, no, no, no no. 

397
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,480
And then eventually she was 
like, what if I get the 

398
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:16,840
paperwork, You know, this went 
over. 

399
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,080
Get the paperwork and fill it 
out where you sign it. 

400
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,600
So I'm like, sure, whatever, you
know, And I didn't think it was 

401
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,760
going to work. 
I didn't think that they would 

402
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,400
find her. 
I didn't, you know, I just was. 

403
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,200
I was just trying to keep the 
peace. 

404
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:36,000
But, you know, when it did 
happen, once again, I stayed in 

405
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,840
the fog. 
I stayed in the, oh, this is 

406
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,080
great. 
This is wonderful. 

407
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,720
Just, you know, couldn't have 
been, but it just started the 

408
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,360
process. 
So what happened? 

409
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:47,120
How did you find her? 
Yeah, she filled out the 

410
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:48,240
paperwork. 
Yeah, I filled out the 

411
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,160
paperwork. 
My daughter was born. 

412
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,400
My daughter was a little over 2 
years old. 

413
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,280
And then the state called me and
they said, you know, we got your

414
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,000
paperwork, we're going to look 
into it. 

415
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,640
And I'm like, oh, jeez, it took 
you almost three years. 

416
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,360
You're not working too hard over
there at the, you know. 

417
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,440
And I said I was not. 
I was not. 

418
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,160
Aware of, you know, the 
difficulties that many people 

419
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,320
have and getting your original 
birth certificate, I was 

420
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,760
content, you know, you know, So 
when they called, same thing. 

421
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,760
I was like, really? 
You know, she called me and then

422
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,840
I was like, OK, she's like, 
we're going to look into it, you

423
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,880
know? 
And literally three days later 

424
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:27,840
she said, OK, we found your 
mother. 

425
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,520
Here's her name or address or 
e-mail or phone number. 

426
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,080
She says call her. 
She doesn't have a problem. 

427
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,080
She sounds nice. 
And then the woman was like. 

428
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,560
You know, woman on the phone, 
she's like, oh, and it seems 

429
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,000
like at least one of your 
parents was African American. 

430
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,280
And you know, I mean, that was a
huge thing to find out on the 

431
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,400
phone, you know, right. 
Drop that bomb. 

432
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,720
But you know, but at the time, 
like I said, despite not 

433
00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:01,080
knowing, it was like, I knew it 
was like, I knew this was 

434
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,600
coming. 
I didn't surprise you. 

435
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:06,880
It No shit. 
You know, I knew this was going 

436
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,800
to happen. 
I knew that's what they were 

437
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,240
going to say. 
Totally believable, you know, I 

438
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,120
didn't doubt it or anything, you
know. 

439
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:19,760
So you know, once again that put
me in the you know, my nature 

440
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:25,600
knew, even though my nurture had
was layers of concrete and 

441
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,800
whatever rebar like this thick 
nurtured shell. 

442
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:38,040
Over top of my natural self that
was sometimes a light veil and 

443
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,080
sometimes a heavy, you know, 
armor around it. 

444
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,400
But it was there. 
It was in me. 

445
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,440
I knew, quote UN quote, knew the
truth that you know Nancy 

446
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,480
Verrier's book, you know the 
primal wound. 

447
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,600
So many adoptees when they read 
that are like, Oh yes, yes, 

448
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,800
yeah. 
You know, it totally makes 

449
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,280
sense. 
And I think we totally carried 

450
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,400
that with us as well. 
And once again, it's buried. 

451
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,520
It's, it's, it's laid under a 
facade so that even though you 

452
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,680
feel it, you know it, you sense 
it. 

453
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,240
There's a, there's a mourning, 
there's a a sadness, there's a 

454
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,640
loss. 
But you can't describe it. 

455
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,120
You're like, what is that? 
You know, when you hear, you 

456
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:25,640
know, you hear of this kind of 
wound, you're like, absolutely. 

457
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,440
You know, and you talk to other 
people and they're like, come 

458
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,720
on, you're a baby. 
How do you know that? 

459
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,560
I don't know how I know it. 
But, you know, similar animals 

460
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,920
have very impressive skills and 
you know, Monarch butterfly, 

461
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:47,040
they leave El Capistrano and 
start going north and it's four 

462
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:52,520
or five or six butterflies later
that know to go back to El 

463
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,520
Capistrano, yeah. 
How do they know they're 

464
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,680
freaking butterflies? 
And if a butterfly with its 

465
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,920
small brain and and, you know, 
primordial instincts can figure 

466
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,320
that out, come on, don't tell me
that we don't have those as 

467
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,920
well. 
Well, that's the whole social 

468
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,680
narrative that's been put out, 
you know, by the adoption 

469
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,160
industry and, you know, 
everybody's bought into it. 

470
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,200
So that's why we have to start 
educating the world on what 

471
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,520
we're talking about right now. 
Absolutely, yeah. 

472
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,280
So your family joked about 
finding under a rock, and I had 

473
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,280
to laugh because that's just so 
Italian, something that an 

474
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,000
Italian would say. 
But you talk about your feelings

475
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:36,520
and you said that you felt like 
you didn't have a birthday. 

476
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,120
Right. 
What did you mean about that? 

477
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,600
Well, it it's, you know, 
everyone had a birthday. 

478
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,640
Everyone has a birthday. 
But it wasn't until I had my 

479
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,960
kids and I, you know, Chapter 6 
is, you know, the start of Part 

480
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:55,080
2, entitled Nature. 
So Chapter 6, I get married, 

481
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,400
start my family, have my child, 
meet my mother, all those 

482
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,680
things. 
And, you know, and I go into, I 

483
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,720
try to be funny and I don't know
if I succeed or not, but I talk 

484
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,880
about the the whole trip to the 
hospital, you know, and it's all

485
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,240
this little quirkiness is and I 
mean that's our, that's our 

486
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,080
little thing. 
You know, it's like daddy didn't

487
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,360
want to go to the hospital. 
He didn't think I was ready to 

488
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:20,000
deliver. 
And and I was, I don't know if 

489
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,600
it was subconscious or whatever,
but, you know, I didn't want to 

490
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,880
be in the hospital too long. 
I spent enough time in the 

491
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,760
hospital and I could deliver a 
baby if I had to, you know, So 

492
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:35,360
maybe I was a little slower or 
just, you know, But then, you 

493
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,920
know, when my daughter was born,
suddenly all that hesitation, 

494
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,320
all that build up, all those 
funny things that I did, that my

495
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,480
wife did that. 
You know, all the things that 

496
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,480
happened on the birthday before 
she was born, you know, me 

497
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,400
stopping at a convenience store 
to get a coffee and, you know, 

498
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,360
just those are all a part of her
birthday, my daughter's birthday

499
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,920
and back. 
And when we say that, you know, 

500
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,000
I have a friend, his last, you 
know, he's he's an orthopaedic 

501
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,800
surgeon. 
His last name is Wong and my 

502
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,000
daughter was conceived at the 
Wong wedding. 

503
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,520
You know, got married. 
And so we always joke about 

504
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:13,720
that. 
It's like you were you were 

505
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,000
conceived at the Wong wedding, 
Hun and she's like, daddy, I'm 

506
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,000
sick of that story, you know. 
But it's those things that you 

507
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,480
know, we know approximately when
she was conceived. 

508
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,240
We know, you know, there's the 
build up we know when we met. 

509
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,480
We know, you know, she knows, 
you know, stories about me 

510
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,240
dating back to my childhood and 
stories of her mother dating 

511
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,240
back to her childhood, which 
connects my daughter to us. 

512
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,400
You know, not just the birthday,
but. 

513
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,120
All those things before and when
you think about it, all those 

514
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:47,800
thousands of years before 
through evolution, you know, 

515
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,640
through this family, that 
family, your family tree, you 

516
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,880
have a connection to your past. 
Whereas adoptees, you know, for 

517
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,200
me and I, I describe it as my 
got day, you know, and it's like

518
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,520
my mother would say, I remember 
the day we got you. 

519
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,440
And I loved hearing that story 
and it was great. 

520
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,040
And tell it again, Mommy, you 
know. 

521
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,400
But then I think about it. 
It's just like, but I didn't 

522
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,720
have a birthday. 
I don't know what happened on my

523
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,440
birthday. 
And I don't know how Larry. 

524
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,240
I don't know how Larry enjoys 
Matt. 

525
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,960
I don't know what kind of 
relationship they had. 

526
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,240
I didn't know about her family. 
I didn't know about his family. 

527
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:30,160
You know all those roots that 
that tie you to something that 

528
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,160
intimately lead you to something
good or bad? 

529
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,000
Quote UN quote good or. 
Not only that, but it's like the

530
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,320
day that you were born is 
probably. 

531
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,160
It wasn't a happy, celebrated 
day. 

532
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,800
It was a sad day for your birth 
mother and for every, you know, 

533
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,040
there wasn't relatives waiting 
there to hold you and nurture 

534
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,120
you and, you know, give you all 
the things that you needed it. 

535
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,320
That's not what happened on that
day, most likely, you know, so 

536
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,920
it's all that wrapped up into 
one. 

537
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,040
And I always feel like I got 
dropped off by the stork or 

538
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,880
something, you know, like I I 
never had a birth. 

539
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,840
You don't hear that story. 
And then when I finally met my 

540
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,920
birth mother and she told me the
story, I remember asking her, 

541
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,720
but I can't remember the story. 
And it it meant so much to me to

542
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,720
know, but I don't remember it. 
It was almost like too much to 

543
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,800
remember. 
Yeah, but. 

544
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,960
But then the story of the rock, 
you know, it's funny to me that 

545
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,720
I can envision that rock. 
Like I could draw. 

546
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,720
I mean, if I was a good artist, 
I could draw a picture of that 

547
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,240
rock. 
Where my parents found me, like 

548
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,520
in my memory, it's a false 
memory. 

549
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,680
But they told me the story that 
they found me under a rock and I

550
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,160
can picture the rock and like I 
said in the book, it's the rock 

551
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,560
is in a desert. 
And I don't know if that's 

552
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,320
symbolic or whatever, but it's 
the wide open desert with 

553
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,480
nothing around it and an 
isolated rock that I was sitting

554
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,560
under, you know? 
And I also think that I have 

555
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,920
memories of being in a crib in 
the orphanage once again. 

556
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,880
Are these false memories? 
Are they real memories? 

557
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,760
Are they? 
But that became a part of my 

558
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,280
history, you know, these false 
memories, you know, like in my 

559
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,640
brain, like my brain doesn't 
know. 

560
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,080
You know, I was a neuroscience 
major and you know, I try to 

561
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,000
think at that level. 
You know, what is this 

562
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,320
primordial new infant brain 
doing? 

563
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,440
It's just been in you know it's 
been bonding with the mother 

564
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,600
inside the womb and hearing her 
voice and. 

565
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,600
Seeing visions through the 
abdominal wall, feeling the 

566
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,280
heartbeat, the electric, you 
know, the vibe, the chemistry, 

567
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,160
the I mean, just so the smells, 
the tastes that are you that 

568
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,520
your dirt, that your soil, you 
know. 

569
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,520
And suddenly you're born and 
it's like, boom, under the heat 

570
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,440
lamp, into the nursery, into the
orphanage, this nurse, that 

571
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,160
nurse, this caretaker, that 
caretaker. 

572
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,720
You're just like, What the heck 
is going on? 

573
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,200
You know and the point at that 
point is is extremely malleable 

574
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,120
and extremely like the learning 
that takes place in the first 

575
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,040
two years. 
We can't compare to that 

576
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,440
nowadays, you know, as a as a as
an adult. 

577
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,360
So that's a very influential 
period and you know, all those 

578
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,880
inner, you know, initial 
learning things and I could 

579
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,960
picture myself, you know, being 
a kiss ass to the nurses and 

580
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,520
trying to you know. 
Smile or I don't know what 

581
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,240
cuddle. 
Just trying to get some 

582
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,640
attention like all the other 
kids were trying to do in the 

583
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,800
orphanage. 
And that becomes your first, you

584
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,160
know, compensatory reaction to 
your environment. 

585
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,400
You know that? 
OK, all right. 

586
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,640
This is getting me food. 
This is getting me held a little

587
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,520
longer. 
This is the trial and error 

588
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,800
situation. 
Did you think about any of that 

589
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,160
when you had your daughter? 
Oh, absolutely. 

590
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,680
Absolutely. 
And then we also did a number of

591
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,199
trips to, we went to Madagascar 
on a mission trip where we were 

592
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:16,239
in orphanages with 300 orphans. 
And I mean, it was just painful 

593
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,520
for me to see this and to 
realize that, you know what's 

594
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,480
separating me from them, really.
You know, I'm here to help them 

595
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,320
and fix their feet and, you 
know, their hips and, you know, 

596
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,600
just. 
That they're looking at me and 

597
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,800
I'm looking at them like I want 
to know more about you guys, 

598
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,960
what's going on with you. 
It was just too close for 

599
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,440
comfort to really to see that. 
And then, you know, and I think 

600
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,560
we did the first or we did the 
trips after I'd found my birth 

601
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:50,480
mother. 
So it was. 

602
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:54,280
I was creeping out of the fog. 
And, you know, trying to come to

603
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,440
terms. 
And I I put Betty Jean Lifton's 

604
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,920
book down and never wanted to 
look at it again after I read it

605
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:02,440
the first time, you know. 
But of course, I always kept it 

606
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,440
with me. 
I always knew where it was. 

607
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,640
I did. 
I still have it now but refused 

608
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,040
to look at it because it just it
just disrupted me so much from 

609
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,600
this this ideal. 
So when you met your birth 

610
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:20,040
mother, is that when that shell 
started cracking and you started

611
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,920
coming out of the fog at that 
point or? 

612
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,080
I would say probably not. 
I think I still tried to bury it

613
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,760
in there. 
We reunited and it was fine. 

614
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,120
It was perfect, you know, not a 
lot of pressure. 

615
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,120
We found it out and we were 
writing back and forth, these 

616
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,280
long emails and long 
conversations and it was just 

617
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,640
like, you know, my compatriot, 
I, I felt the the bond. 

618
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,840
And then it was Mother's Day 
where she sent me an e-mail. 

619
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,480
And she's like, you know, you 
know, hey, from your, your, your

620
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,760
other mother. 
And I was like, you know, the 

621
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,920
heels, the heels dug in, It just
got too real. 

622
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,840
I'm like, no, I have a mother. 
I love my mother. 

623
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,720
I can't be. 
We can't see each other anymore.

624
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:05,440
Kind of thing. 
It was me that really put the 

625
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,920
brakes on and, you know, turned 
tail and ran, Yeah, wow. 

626
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,880
And I said I went back into the 
fog for another 10 years. 

627
00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:20,640
And, you know, during that 
period, it was constantly on my 

628
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,080
mind. 
It was constantly. 

629
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,640
You know, the marriage wasn't 
going well. 

630
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,880
It just was communication was 
horrible. 

631
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,520
And I'm like, this isn't my 
life. 

632
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,160
This isn't my life. 
It's a great life. 

633
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,760
It's a fantastic life. 
I don't know what is wrong with 

634
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:43,000
me, what is wrong with me. 
And it was always in my head, 

635
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,880
and I was. 
You know we lived on a in a old 

636
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,960
farm we had 100 plus acres and 
I'm a brush hog in the field and

637
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:55,840
being Farmer Jack and thinking 
just like who am I and all these

638
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,960
things. 
So then eventually the marriage 

639
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,800
we separated and she went N to 
Rhode Island back home and I 

640
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,000
went S to a job in North 
Carolina. 

641
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,200
So it was a complete dramatic, 
you know, and it's like, I 

642
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,280
didn't hate her. 
I didn't have, it just wasn't 

643
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,680
whatever. 
Wasn't what you wanted you. 

644
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,680
Yeah. 
You know, so then I ended up 

645
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,840
down in North Carolina and 
thinking, thinking, thinking. 

646
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,800
And then I decided that I need 
to find my father's side of the 

647
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,880
story. 
And I think that was the real, 

648
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,400
you know, I met the family, 
found out about him, recognize 

649
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,680
the similarities between me and 
that family, between me and my 

650
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,760
mother. 
And it's like, I think that's 

651
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,160
when the fog finally cleared. 
And it was during that period 

652
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,960
where I was journaling and 
writing the book and really 

653
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,880
trying to figure it out, you 
know, So a lot of the chapters 

654
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,960
are just me trying to relive my 
life as I lived it, you know? 

655
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,000
And then I didn't know how the 
book was going to end. 

656
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,480
I didn't know how it was, what 
my feelings were going to be. 

657
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,160
I didn't know if I was going to 
be angry. 

658
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,160
I didn't know. 
You know, a lot of it was 

659
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,920
written after Chapter 10, which 
is the climax of the book where?

660
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,120
All the stuff hits the fan and 
you know, and we admit what they

661
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,000
knew, what they didn't know. 
And and yeah, let's talk about 

662
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,360
that. 
So you there was a part where 

663
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,160
you go to tell your adoptive 
parents that you found your 

664
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,200
biological family. 
And the way you describe it in 

665
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,880
the book is every adoptee's 
nightmare. 

666
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,800
I think you know how it all went
down. 

667
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,080
But they had been keeping a 
secret from you as well. 

668
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,280
So tell us what happened. 
Yeah, you know, I mean, like, 

669
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,080
I've been going through this and
I did confide with my sister 

670
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,160
about it. 
And we were on the same page. 

671
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,360
Like, we don't want to hurt mom 
and dad's feelings, You know, we

672
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:43,760
don't want to. 
But I'm feeling like, like 

673
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,120
least. 
And like the nuns have been 

674
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,840
lying to them all along, you 
know? 

675
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,240
And I found out this stuff. 
And, you know, my blind date 

676
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:52,080
said that the nuns lied to her 
parents. 

677
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,760
So I was going under that 
assumption. 

678
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,840
So, you know, I'm like, Lise, 
this is kind of funny. 

679
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,600
I mean, it's like, it's just, no
kidding. 

680
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,360
The nuns lied. 
Of course they did. 

681
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,040
You know, They want everything 
to be rosy, you know. 

682
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,640
So I'm telling my sister and 
she's like, I don't think you 

683
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,800
should tell him, Jack. 
And I'm like, I'll be fine. 

684
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,520
Lise, you know, I try to be 
creative, I guess in my writing.

685
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,120
And I I talked about early in 
the book about a wasp nest, 

686
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,280
where I'm going into the nest 
and Lisa's my sister's like, 

687
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,800
don't do it, don't do it. 
And the wasp nest is really an 

688
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,400
analogy for me going into the 
birth history, you know? 

689
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,600
So we're sitting outside and, 
you know, I go inside to get 

690
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,560
another bottle of wine because I
needed my liquid courage to have

691
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,480
this conversation. 
And she comes in, she's like, 

692
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,600
you're not doing this, are you? 
And I'm like, yeah, at least 

693
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,320
it's going to be fine. 
We need this. 

694
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:37,840
It's fine. 
We're grown-ups. 

695
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,880
It's no big deal, blah, blah, 
blah. 

696
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,520
So I go out and I tell it comes 
out and I'm like, you know, I 

697
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,600
carry. 
Anne filled out the forms and I 

698
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,400
found my birth mother. 
And my my mother's like, oh, 

699
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,840
Jack. 
You know, just complete 

700
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,000
disappointment. 
And I'm like, no, no, really, 

701
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,720
it's good. 
It's like, wait, I'm not done, 

702
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:57,440
you know? 
So I try to tell the story and 

703
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,040
everyone's bawling, Everyone's 
crying, my father's sobbing, red

704
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,040
faced. 
Just ridiculous, you know? 

705
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:08,080
And I'm like, what is the 
problem? 

706
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,680
I just, I didn't say anything. 
I just said that I found them 

707
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,320
and they were college kids, this
and that. 

708
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,440
And then, you know, through his 
sobs, he's like Jack. 

709
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,640
We already knew that. 
And five people went to their 

710
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,560
graves with that secret. 
And I'm like, what secret? 

711
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,800
I didn't tell you a secret. 
There's no secrets that I 

712
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,200
revealed yet. 
And, you know, then I'm like, 

713
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:31,160
and then he's like, well, we had
to tell everyone in the family 

714
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,680
before we even brought you home.
I'm like, what? 

715
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,440
And then I'm like, that my 
father was black. 

716
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,840
And he's like, yeah. 
And I was just like, you're 

717
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,240
kidding me. 
Like, I've been like 50 years 

718
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:49,400
with these feelings, with these 
thoughts, you know, 15 years of 

719
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,120
searching and after hearing the 
Negro child comments and all 

720
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,360
these realizations that I'm 
like, no kidding. 

721
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,240
I mean, I should have known. 
I should have guessed. 

722
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,720
I should have figured it out, 
you know, putting all the blame 

723
00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:04,160
on me, you know, and it's like 
and and the nuns, like these 

724
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,840
poor nuns or my poor parents 
with these nuns lying. 

725
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:07,960
To them. 
And they knew. 

726
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,600
Yeah, we knew. 
Everyone knew. 

727
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,800
Everyone in the family knew. 
And I'm like, it's like the 

728
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,160
Truman Show. 
It was painful. 

729
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:16,400
Yeah. 
So how did that play out between

730
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,520
the relationship with you and 
your adoptive parents? 

731
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,120
After that, we did the usual 
Italian thing, put our heads 

732
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,120
back in the sand, and just, you 
know, my mother called me two 

733
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,400
days after that event and said, 
your father wants everything to 

734
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,880
go back to the way it was. 
So that's what we did. 

735
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,680
And, you know, so then I wrote 
the book. 

736
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,280
I put the book on my laptop. 
I showed it to my sister, my 

737
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,800
kids, some cousin, and I was 
fine with it there on the on my 

738
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,360
laptop. 
But then when Roe V Wade was 

739
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,680
overturned and you know, all 
these talking heads about 

740
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,400
adoption and just after having 
gone through this, like I said, 

741
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,840
despite the perfect quote, UN 
quote, perfect upbringing, 

742
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,760
despite the social successes and
the academic and the military 

743
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,520
and all these things that were 
so good, I was still pretty 

744
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,640
messed up over it. 
And I was the lucky one. 

745
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,720
You know, you also hear these 
stories of foster homes and 

746
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:18,520
abuse and drug abuse and and I'm
like, no, this is no joke. 

747
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,640
Adoption is heavy. 
It is long term damaging. 

748
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,600
You know, I mean, there are good
things that come out of the 

749
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,040
trauma, You know, like in war, 
times of war, you'll hear these 

750
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,440
great stories of people bonding 
together, but it's still 

751
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,320
freaking war. 
And yeah, there were good 

752
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,320
things. 
But and I'm not saying that it 

753
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,800
would have been better with my, 
you know, it's like we all know 

754
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,400
that it's not better. 
It's different, but it would 

755
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,320
have been hugely different. 
You know, who would I have been?

756
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,600
And I I refer to that, that 
infant that was initially born, 

757
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,480
I refer to that as my vanishing 
twin. 

758
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,840
You're like, what would that guy
have ended up as? 

759
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,760
Yeah. 
It's a great analogy. 

760
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,040
Yeah. 
Who would he have been and where

761
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,840
would he have gone? 
And you know, like this me that 

762
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,880
I have now, it's just an actor. 
It's a, it's a response. 

763
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,080
It's a, it's a. 
Survival response, Yeah. 

764
00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:20,200
A reflex to the trauma. 
It's a survival, you know. 

765
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,240
And you know, he ran his ass off
and and he, you know, always 

766
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:27,240
worked hard and always, but he 
never felt comfortable just 

767
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:28,880
sitting still and just being 
him. 

768
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,680
Yeah, you know and I, and it's 
better if I think of it as 

769
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,640
someone else rather than me. 
Yeah, definitely. 

770
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:39,160
Now you split the book up into 
parts, the nature, nurture and 

771
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,040
free will. 
What was the purpose of doing 

772
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,960
that? 
I guess a lot of it was just my 

773
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:46,640
some of my interests. 
And why was I interested? 

774
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:51,000
And I don't know, but I've 
really gravitated to a lot of 

775
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,360
behavioral neuroscientists, if 
you will. 

776
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,680
Robert Wright was one of the 
first books that I read. 

777
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,320
And there's a whole field of, 
you know, that genetics doesn't 

778
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,640
just give you your eye color, 
your, you know, your cheekbones.

779
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,920
It gives you your personality 
and your cultural tendencies, 

780
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,480
your stereotypes, whatever they 
are. 

781
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,160
You know, those are just as 
genetically passed on as 

782
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,880
anything else. 
You know, a Chihuahua acts like 

783
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,920
a Chihuahua. 
A German Shepherd acts like a 

784
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,000
German Shepherd. 
You don't see any Chihuahuas 

785
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,240
walking around with German 
Shepherd Swagger. 

786
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,560
You know they have a personality
and an appearance, and they go 

787
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:31,280
hand in hand with their needs. 
Nature and nurture are not 

788
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,080
enemies. 
Everyone says nature versus 

789
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,960
nurture. 
I did a lecture recently or 

790
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:37,640
presentation, and I talked about
that. 

791
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,640
They're they're more like 
frenemies or you know each 

792
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,160
other's nemesis. 
You know nature and nurture need

793
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,720
each other. 
They work together, simpatico. 

794
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,720
They need each other. 
You know your appearance and 

795
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:52,240
your personality complement each
other. 

796
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,800
And that, to me is authentic. 
Yeah, like this. 

797
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,520
This Chihuahua looks like a 
Chihuahua. 

798
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,280
Acts like a Chihuahua. 
He's a Chihuahua. 

799
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,120
He's an authentic Chihuahua. 
You see some Chihuahua walking 

800
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,240
around like a German Shepherd. 
You're like that dude's faking 

801
00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:11,480
it. 
He's trying to compensate. 

802
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,200
You know he's got Napoleon 
syndrome. 

803
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:17,320
True. 
Now, where does free will come 

804
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,960
into this? 
I eventually talk about free 

805
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,560
will as that control system, if 
you will. 

806
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,960
You know you need your nature. 
You need your nurture, and it's 

807
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:32,560
always a meandering path. 
And I liken free will to the 

808
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:37,200
Ying and Yang symbol, that 
invisible line that is between 

809
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:42,400
the light and the dark, the good
and the bad, the nurture and the

810
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,960
nature. 
You know and I try to define 

811
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,960
What I see is nature and what I 
see is nurture and it can be 

812
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,520
interpreted different ways. 
You know some are some are 

813
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,400
blends but you know I try to 
give examples of what I think is

814
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,600
nature, what I think is nurture 
and I think the free will, you 

815
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,840
know, knowing your nature, 
knowing your nurture, the free 

816
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,000
will decides. 
And early in the book, I some of

817
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,120
the stories like, may not make 
sense as to why I included them 

818
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,160
in an adoption story. 
But I did think that they were 

819
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,200
all related. 
Like, early in the book, I talk 

820
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,280
about night. 
I was on call and I was dead 

821
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,320
tired. 
I was beat. 

822
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,040
I just wanted to sleep, I wanted
to poop, I wanted to eat. 

823
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,120
I don't know what I wanted to 
do, but I was tired physically. 

824
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,240
My nature was screaming, you 
need sleep, you need whatever. 

825
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,760
And then I walk in the emergency
room and I see this trauma 

826
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,360
patient with both of his legs 
broken, bone sticking out of the

827
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,320
skin. 
And I'm like, Oh my God, I can't

828
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,760
deal with this now. 
I'm too tired. 

829
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:41,920
I'm just, I'm stressed. 
I smell. 

830
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,680
I got to sleep. 
But then I start going into my 

831
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,080
my nurturing. 
I start thinking about, OK, what

832
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,960
do we need to do? 
My nature wants to go to sleep 

833
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,840
and say screw this, I'm leaving,
I'm running away to home. 

834
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,000
But then my nurture kicks in. 
OK, what do I got to do? 

835
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,400
I got to check his pulses. 
I got to get the equipment in 

836
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,160
the ORI, got to call X-ray. 
I got to, you know, I'm going 

837
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,920
into my training. 
And to me that's the point where

838
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,040
you know my nature and my 
nurture and highly conflicting 

839
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,360
situations. 
I had to do it. 

840
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,880
I had to fix the guy. 
But then as I'm walking and I 

841
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,960
see him and I'm like, I'm, I'm 
evaluating everything. 

842
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,960
And I get to his head and they 
have the breathing tube pulled 

843
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,200
out and I'm like, what's going 
on? 

844
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,560
And it's like, oh, he's dead. 
And I'm like, yes, you know, my 

845
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,880
nature jumped out and says, yes,
I'm going to sleep. 

846
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,280
And then I'm like, wait a 
minute, I just celebrated the 

847
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,280
death of someone. 
But I got to sleep. 

848
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,200
It's like in those moments. 
And I call that my my, my 

849
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,840
superhuman moment, my Superman 
moment. 

850
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,000
Not that I did anything 
tremendous. 

851
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,920
I I looked horrible. 
You know the the optics of it 

852
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,680
were horrible. 
But it's when that nature and 

853
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,000
nurture were absolutely butting 
against each other whether that 

854
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,920
be in time of war and you do 
something that is that is 

855
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,160
harmful, something that is 
selfish, something that is 

856
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,840
embarrassing in a time of war. 
And I think a lot of war 

857
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,120
veterans come home and they 
battle with those moments when 

858
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,160
your nature and your nurture, 
you're like you had to survive. 

859
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,480
You just had to survive. 
You have to sleep, you have to 

860
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,080
poop, You have to do the basic 
things that you need to do. 

861
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,600
And sometimes your nurture 
doesn't allow you and you don't 

862
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,960
look so good in those moments. 
So, you know, I put that, that 

863
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,520
free will as those choices you 
make sometimes make you look 

864
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,240
good on the nurture side. 
Some make you look bad because 

865
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:33,240
you choose yourself and you're 
selfish things. 

866
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,200
And I think, you know, everyone 
in the triad goes through those 

867
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,400
moments. 
You know, our parents are like, 

868
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,280
yeah, we got pregnant. 
What are we going to do? 

869
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,560
Let's give it away and run away,
you know? 

870
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,400
And then the adoptive parents 
are like, well, we can't have 

871
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:47,520
our own kids. 
What do we do? 

872
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,320
Well, we take a kid and we 
pretend that he's ours. 

873
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,280
And you know what I mean? 
It's those moments that you 

874
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,720
don't always look so good being 
super. 

875
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,480
It's not the Superman thing. 
Like, you know, the the 

876
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,760
superhuman means that you were 
placed in a situation that had 

877
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:09,880
so much force, so much stress in
opposing directions, and you 

878
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,480
kind of chose you because you 
had to survive. 

879
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,720
You had to get back to school. 
You had to give the baby away 

880
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:22,720
because it was, you know, just 
I, I I try to make that that 

881
00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:26,280
connection between those 
powerful forces. 

882
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,640
And I try to do it in a creative
way by telling stories as 

883
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,840
opposed to lecturing to people 
because I'm not an expert on any

884
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,880
of it other than I've lived it. 
I'm not a psychologist, I'm not 

885
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,960
a neuroscientist. 
I'm not an adoption counsellor. 

886
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:47,440
But I think within all of our 
stories we have those. 

887
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,240
If you look for them, you got 
those moments that are just 

888
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,120
heart wrenching and I think just
being able to subdivide them 

889
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,400
into your natural self that 
needs to survive and your 

890
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,560
nurtured self which needs to get
along. 

891
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,960
And sometimes you make good 
decisions, sometimes you make 

892
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,800
bad decisions. 
But each had a purpose and a 

893
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,960
pull that you have to forgive 
yourself over. 

894
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,800
I mean it's it's just it it you 
can't second guess, you can't 

895
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,200
play Monday morning quarterback.
You got to take it as I did what

896
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,080
I had to do at the time. 
I had to do it to just get 

897
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,440
through the next day. 
Yeah, I know. 

898
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,680
For me, like when you were 
explaining the yin and the Yang 

899
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,600
with the nature nurture and that
line in the middle is free will,

900
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,440
I was thinking. 
I didn't have that line in the 

901
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,080
middle. 
I didn't feel like I had that 

902
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,040
line in the middle separating 
those two. 

903
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,240
And so how messy does that get 
when there's no separation? 

904
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:42,840
But that separation of free will
is actually my authentic self. 

905
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:47,200
So I'm taking a little bit from 
each, you know, each side, and 

906
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,400
and then there's me. 
The actual me is that line in 

907
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:51,920
the middle. 
You know, right? 

908
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,680
You're the one making the 
decisions, but it needs to be an

909
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,960
informed decision. 
In order to achieve this perfect

910
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:04,360
utopian human existence, this, 
this balanced Nirvana in your 

911
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,480
life, you need ultimate and 
infinite knowledge of of both 

912
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,280
yourself and no one has that. 
You go with what you have and 

913
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,200
unfortunately we don't have half
of that. 

914
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:20,240
So our meandering line is do I 
have ricotta cheese in my or do 

915
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,120
I make them with, you know, 
dump? 

916
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,000
You know, it's all in the 
nurture side of things. 

917
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:27,040
Right. 
And you also said in your book 

918
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:28,880
that writing it was your 
therapy. 

919
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,280
Your 55 year old struggled to 
figure yourself out. 

920
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,200
What did you learn about 
yourself from writing the book? 

921
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:42,280
A ton? 
I've learned that, you know, I 

922
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,520
was. 
I was inauthentic, A good part 

923
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,000
of it. 
And that's that's a little 

924
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,120
painful, You know, I made 
decisions for other people 

925
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:53,760
instead of me. 
I benefited from it. 

926
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:58,600
So maybe it was good for me to 
live for others and to be, you 

927
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,520
know, a successful contributing 
member of society. 

928
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,280
You know, I put F16 pilots back 
into the cockpit. 

929
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:08,120
I took people who couldn't walk 
and I allowed them to walk. 

930
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,120
You know what I mean? 
Like, I'm very proud of my 

931
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,080
career and the things I've done,
but I'm horribly embarrassed by,

932
00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:18,400
you know, the the falling part 
of my marriage and that family 

933
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,720
life that I grew up with. 
So close. 

934
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,480
But now I don't have it. 
I'm here by myself, traveling in

935
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,480
the airport talking to you about
who I am. 

936
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:37,200
And I'm 57 and I want to go back
to 201532. 

937
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,920
I want to go back somewhere with
the knowledge I have now. 

938
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,400
Yeah, because now it's it's a 
little late. 

939
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,520
Well, now there's that 
compassion that you were just 

940
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,120
talking about. 
You gotta have some compassion 

941
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,040
for yourself. 
I know. 

942
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,280
But I'm just saying like those 
are the battling and you're 

943
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,960
right. 
That and like I said I had it 

944
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,640
good. 
I I am in a good situation but 

945
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,720
it still is not easy and I'm not
complaining about it. 

946
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,360
You know, I I, I accept the 
challenge. 

947
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:12,040
I'm I'm eager to to improve and 
to move forward. 

948
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,240
But come on man. 
Just take the take the ball and 

949
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:17,120
chain off a little earlier for 
me. 

950
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,120
Give me a, give me a come on 
man. 

951
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,080
Give me a chance you know give 
me give a brother a chance you 

952
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,720
know. 
And I mean I think like I said 

953
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:28,360
when I talk to my, I'm like I 
get why you did it but do you 

954
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:32,640
understand the effect that it 
had And I think they do. 

955
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,600
You know, I mean I'm. 
I'm actually contemplating the 

956
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,280
sequel. 
I think, you know, just, you 

957
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,120
know, me coming out to my 
parents and telling them that I 

958
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,320
wrote the book, Oh my God, you 
know, the ulcer. 

959
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,640
I'm going to go over that like I
wrote the book. 

960
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,560
And I'm not going to tell you 
how it works because I want to. 

961
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,240
I want to work that a little 
better. 

962
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:53,360
I'm going to work that in my 
brain a little bit because it 

963
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:59,000
was powerful in so many ways and
it has been a good thing. 

964
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,120
It's been a nest thing. 
Like I I told my sister, you 

965
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:04,840
know, we'll be fine. 
We need to do this and at the 

966
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:06,920
time it did it, it didn't work 
out fine. 

967
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,840
It wasn't good. 
But I think with a couple more 

968
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,600
years and some more tears and 
and hardships it has become 

969
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,240
better. 
That's good so. 

970
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,920
Good. 
So I was like to close and ask 

971
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,560
what advice do you have for 
struggling adoptees? 

972
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:26,040
Yeah, I would say, you know, and
I'm and I'm not, I'm not the 

973
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,000
best at this. 
You know, it's like take it easy

974
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,240
on yourself. 
You know the sins you've 

975
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:34,480
committed, quote UN quote, sins,
you know, the the bad decisions 

976
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,360
you've made in your life, the 
struggles you've had in your 

977
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,520
life are not uncommon. 
And anyone in the same 

978
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,560
situation, given the same 
circumstances, being adopted by 

979
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,840
the same family, you know, with 
the same personality, would have

980
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,320
done the same thing that you 
did, even if there's things that

981
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,560
are embarrassing to you, even if
there's things that are hurtful 

982
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,800
to you, and then also just 
listen to that inner voice, like

983
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,320
the, like I said, that instinct 
voice that brings those 

984
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,000
butterflies back. 
You have that. 

985
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,280
But just listen to it. 
Be you. 

986
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:11,080
Be you as best you can. 
And you're gonna fall and you're

987
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,400
gonna fail and you're gonna make
mistakes. 

988
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,120
But it's not a mistake. 
It's a correction. 

989
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,480
You're like, oh, that was. 
That's not the person I need to 

990
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,960
hang out with. 
You know that's not the job I 

991
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,360
need. 
And unfortunately, we do this 

992
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,640
back and forth much more than 
most. 

993
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,200
Our trial and error has no road 
map. 

994
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,080
But listen to it. 
When you find success, go with 

995
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,360
it. 
Don't punish yourself more by 

996
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,120
not going with your feelings. 
If there's someone that makes 

997
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:39,240
you feel good, if there's 
someone that makes you feel 

998
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:42,080
whole, if there's someone you 
you vibe with, you communicate 

999
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,680
with, go with it. 
Yeah, it's for you. 

1000
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,720
And you know you're the only one
who's gonna wake up with you 

1001
00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:51,480
tomorrow and tomorrow and 
tomorrow and tomorrow. 

1002
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,280
You know, you're the only one 
who's with you through every 

1003
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,200
chapter, every page, every word 
of the book. 

1004
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,520
You're with you, so take care of
you. 

1005
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,800
Yeah, I think that's what you 
need to do. 

1006
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,600
Right. 
So where can we find your book? 

1007
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,720
Tell us, Anton or Barnes and 
Nobles? 

1008
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,280
Unfortunately, I don't. 
I should have a website and I 

1009
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,400
should have a lot of things, but
I have a website on Ingenium 

1010
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,800
Books was I was very blessed to 
have them. 

1011
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,840
They were a great publisher and 
they promoted the book and we 

1012
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,960
got listed on the Wall Street 
Journal #1 Best seller for a 

1013
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:26,280
week. 
So it was, you know, the book 

1014
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:30,000
was on their website Ingenium 
ingeniumbooks.com. 

1015
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:33,120
You know, I have a page there 
and he said you can buy the book

1016
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:38,080
on Barnes and Nobles or Amazon 
and it's not a a fact based 

1017
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,760
book. 
It's trying to be a a parable in

1018
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,760
a way, you know, using certain 
stories to kind of exemplify the

1019
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,840
experience so that hopefully 
people can live it. 

1020
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,000
Maybe it's better for someone 
who isn't adopted so they can 

1021
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,520
just live it. 
And I try to set it up and then 

1022
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,400
surprise them with things, you 
know, it's like, oh so great, oh

1023
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:58,640
shit, what happened there, you 
know? 

1024
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,920
And then just, I didn't see that
one coming, you know, because 

1025
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,080
that's how it happened to me, 
you know, it was just like, 

1026
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,920
whoa. 
Yeah, what I liked about it was,

1027
00:57:07,240 --> 00:57:08,800
like I said, I had all the 
emotions in it. 

1028
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,000
But you'd find so many adoptee 
books that are just so serious, 

1029
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:14,720
you know? 
And it's like, it was nice to 

1030
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:16,760
laugh at some of the things, you
know. 

1031
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,240
I mean, it might piss some 
people off that I'm laughing 

1032
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:23,760
about it, but it's pretty funny 
a lot of the spots and it's just

1033
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,720
like you got to laugh at some of
those, you know, stuff that 

1034
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:28,720
doesn't feel so good. 
So it helps. 

1035
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,320
Oh, I know. 
And yeah, that does help, you 

1036
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,080
know, whistling through the 
graveyard and whatever. 

1037
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:36,920
Well, thanks so much for coming 
on today, Jack. 

1038
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,120
I appreciate it. 
I, you know, great to meet you 

1039
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,000
and and feel your personality 
and your intelligence. 

1040
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:44,200
I love it. 
So thank you. 

1041
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:52,640
Another amazing adoption story 
told today and I just can't help

1042
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:57,360
but think of all of the parallel
things that he said that I could

1043
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:02,320
relate to so easily. 
Especially where he talks about 

1044
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,480
I have everything, why am I not 
happy? 

1045
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:11,600
I think so many adoptees can 
relate to that sentiment. 

1046
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,520
And most of the time we don't 
know why because of the 

1047
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:20,480
narrative that is out there that
doesn't allow us to have our 

1048
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,200
feelings surrounding being 
adopted. 

1049
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,320
And I'm just so glad that the 
community is opening up now and 

1050
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,680
that we're telling our stories 
and that we're educating the 

1051
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,680
world. 
Make sure you get Jack's book. 

1052
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:37,800
The link is in the show notes. 
Even if you are not an adoptee. 

1053
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,960
It is such a great read. 
And if you are thinking of 

1054
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,440
telling your story on the 
podcast, do not be shy. 

1055
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,600
Send me an e-mail at Mind your 
own karma@gmail.com. 

1056
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,880
Find me on my website 
mindyourownkarma.com Socials 

1057
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,800
Facebook Instagram. 
You can DM me there. 

1058
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,320
Let's get your story on the 
podcast. 

1059
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,280
It's time for you to do your 
part in educating the world 

1060
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:07,200
about adoption. 
As always, take what you need 

1061
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,800
and leave what you don't. 
And always remember to mind your

1062
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,200
own karma. 
I'll see you next time.