1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,800 Hey there, it's Melissa Brunetti. 2 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,600 And welcome to the. Mind your own Karma podcast. 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:16,700 Hey. There Karma crew, thanks for 4 00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:19,980 joining me on another episode of Mind Your Own, Karma, The 5 00:00:19,980 --> 00:00:24,020 Adoption Chronicles. Today I have two guests for you 6 00:00:24,180 --> 00:00:27,180 to adopt these. One is a return guest. 7 00:00:27,180 --> 00:00:28,900 She is an. Author and been on. 8 00:00:28,900 --> 00:00:32,619 Mind your own karma a few times already, but first we are going 9 00:00:32,619 --> 00:00:36,260 to hear from Kelly Marufo. Kelly was the product of a 10 00:00:36,260 --> 00:00:39,940 prearranged adoption through a local church and her biological 11 00:00:39,940 --> 00:00:42,860 mother's doctor. Her adoptive parents waited for 12 00:00:42,860 --> 00:00:45,900 notification of her birth and brought her home at 3 days. 13 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:49,100 Old she had a happy. Life and she says her adoptive 14 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:52,300 mom was the absolute best woman ever. 15 00:00:52,860 --> 00:00:55,860 Unfortunately, since her adoptive mother's death, she no 16 00:00:55,860 --> 00:00:58,420 longer has a relationship with her adoptive father. 17 00:00:58,780 --> 00:01:01,020 And at this time. Does not have any communication 18 00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:03,350 with him. She says she does have an 19 00:01:03,350 --> 00:01:06,270 amazing relationship with her biological father and his side 20 00:01:06,270 --> 00:01:08,990 of the family. Not so much with her biological 21 00:01:08,990 --> 00:01:12,310 mother, who after a rocky reunion she has no contact with. 22 00:01:12,310 --> 00:01:16,550 Now, as many of us adoptees can relate, Kelly has a celebrity 23 00:01:16,550 --> 00:01:19,750 adoptee for a cousin that joins us later in the episode. 24 00:01:20,230 --> 00:01:22,870 Everyone in the adoptee community knows her as Emma 25 00:01:22,870 --> 00:01:26,670 Stevens and now Linda Pivak. She is the author of The 26 00:01:26,670 --> 00:01:29,790 Gathering Place and Adoptee Story and a Fire is Coming. 27 00:01:30,380 --> 00:01:34,260 Emma discusses why she decided to recently reveal her real name 28 00:01:34,340 --> 00:01:38,100 Linda Peavak and why she used a pseudonym in the 1st place. 29 00:01:38,860 --> 00:01:43,620 Here is my interview with Kelly Marufo and Emma Stevens AKA 30 00:01:43,820 --> 00:01:47,340 Linda Peavak. So we are welcoming Kelly to the 31 00:01:47,340 --> 00:01:48,420 show today. Hi, Kelly. 32 00:01:48,420 --> 00:01:51,300 Thanks for being a guest today. Hi, thanks for having me. 33 00:01:51,540 --> 00:01:54,020 Yeah. So I like to jump right into the 34 00:01:54,020 --> 00:01:57,860 story and tell us what you know about why you. 35 00:01:57,860 --> 00:02:04,720 Were put up for adoption. My biological mother was 17, 36 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,479 junior in high school. My biological dad was 18, 37 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:10,919 getting ready to go to Vietnam, just graduating. 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:19,280 So it was the typical 1968 send mom to aunt's house, hide her 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,720 away and put the baby up for adoption. 40 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,440 That's what happened. So there was no talk of those 41 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,330 two getting married or? Anything like that, I was. 42 00:02:30,530 --> 00:02:36,370 The biological dad actually drove her to Mexico and to be 43 00:02:36,370 --> 00:02:40,970 married before he left, and she decided she didn't want to do 44 00:02:40,970 --> 00:02:45,250 that. That wasn't her path in life. 45 00:02:47,410 --> 00:02:50,490 So why did your adoptive parents decide to adopt? 46 00:02:52,460 --> 00:02:55,540 My mother couldn't have children for some reason. 47 00:02:55,540 --> 00:02:59,820 She was a very private lady when it came to personal things, very 48 00:02:59,820 --> 00:03:04,380 oldfashioned, so she never did explain to me why she. 49 00:03:04,380 --> 00:03:07,780 Couldn't have children. But she couldn't, and so they 50 00:03:07,780 --> 00:03:14,460 set out for adoption in 1966. They went through the church and 51 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:18,940 the met the doctor and were on the list. 52 00:03:19,020 --> 00:03:26,040 And then in 19. 67 A boy was born and were going to be born, 53 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,240 and they thought about doing that, and then they chose not 54 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,000 to, and their best friends were also on the adoption list. 55 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,520 So they took the boy and waited for another year, to 1968, and 56 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:43,120 chose to go with my biological mother's child, whatever it may 57 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,000 be. I guess in those days they 58 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:46,760 probably didn't know if it was a boy or a girl. 59 00:03:47,170 --> 00:03:53,410 But they chose to wait for until 1968 and then when my biological 60 00:03:53,410 --> 00:03:57,050 mother became pregnant, they went basically through the 61 00:03:57,450 --> 00:04:02,370 pregnancy, through the church, through the hospital, the whole 62 00:04:02,370 --> 00:04:04,570 9 yards. The doctors made sure everything 63 00:04:04,570 --> 00:04:08,410 was good and brought me home at three days old. 64 00:04:08,890 --> 00:04:11,250 So they knew your biological mother. 65 00:04:11,410 --> 00:04:13,290 They had married. They did. 66 00:04:14,090 --> 00:04:17,529 It was. My first name. 67 00:04:18,450 --> 00:04:20,970 My first name. They never knew last names, 68 00:04:21,329 --> 00:04:23,210 either one, but they knew first names. 69 00:04:23,930 --> 00:04:27,290 Came to find out years later that my biological mother always 70 00:04:27,290 --> 00:04:35,570 knew where I was and made my mother very nervous at times 71 00:04:35,810 --> 00:04:40,650 where she would show up and they knew each other from facial, you 72 00:04:40,650 --> 00:04:43,760 know, recognition. And she would show up and make 73 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,680 my mother very nervous. So did you guys live in the same 74 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,280 town then? We did. 75 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,320 Oh, wow. Yeah, we were all in Laguna 76 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,280 Niguel. So your your biological mom 77 00:04:55,280 --> 00:05:00,560 would just show up at random places or to your house or what? 78 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:03,280 Not at the house, but in Laguna Niguel. 79 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:05,880 In Laguna Beach there's like Festival the arts and the 80 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,440 Sawdust Festival, big festivals and she would randomly show up 81 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,850 at those places when she. Knew that they were going to be 82 00:05:13,850 --> 00:05:19,970 there somehow. So pop in different places. 83 00:05:20,130 --> 00:05:23,170 My mom never really knew how she knew, but she knew. 84 00:05:24,970 --> 00:05:26,770 Wow. Yeah, that would be a little 85 00:05:26,770 --> 00:05:29,210 unnerving. So did you always know you were 86 00:05:29,210 --> 00:05:32,290 adopted? I found out when I was 8 years 87 00:05:32,290 --> 00:05:36,620 old I had asked my mom. How babies were born. 88 00:05:36,660 --> 00:05:40,420 When all that subject came up and she explained to me at that 89 00:05:40,420 --> 00:05:42,500 point in time, she figured I was old enough to know that I was 90 00:05:42,500 --> 00:05:45,020 adopted and that she didn't birth me, but I was her 91 00:05:45,020 --> 00:05:49,740 daughter, no ifs, ands or buts. So I found out I was adopted, 92 00:05:49,740 --> 00:05:53,700 which I think at 8:00 I kind of just blew off. 93 00:05:53,700 --> 00:05:56,660 I didn't really, I don't know, it didn't really affect me. 94 00:05:56,660 --> 00:05:59,700 I didn't really understand it. But as I got older, 95 00:06:00,060 --> 00:06:03,340 unfortunately used it against my mom. 96 00:06:04,230 --> 00:06:08,230 In mean ways at times, you know, you're not my mom, you're not 97 00:06:08,230 --> 00:06:12,390 this, you're not that, Which was horrible and I regretted for a 98 00:06:12,390 --> 00:06:17,710 long time, but I don't. Other than that, I don't think 99 00:06:17,710 --> 00:06:21,510 it really ever sank in. Until I was older, when my 100 00:06:21,510 --> 00:06:27,270 biological mom sent my dad, my adopted dad was a police officer 101 00:06:27,270 --> 00:06:30,390 in Laguna Beach and then became a police officer in Grover 102 00:06:30,390 --> 00:06:33,470 Beach. So we moved in Pismo Beach area. 103 00:06:33,980 --> 00:06:36,860 Moved and she always somehow knew where we were and she sent 104 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:39,060 a letter when I was 18 and wanted to meet me. 105 00:06:39,060 --> 00:06:43,140 And at that time when my parents asked me if I wanted to meet her 106 00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:45,700 and let me read her letter, I said no. 107 00:06:45,700 --> 00:06:48,900 Because by that time I felt really horrible about all the 108 00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:53,780 times I had used her against my mom and said no, no no, no. 109 00:06:53,780 --> 00:06:57,500 I have my I have my family. My mom then talked me into 110 00:06:57,500 --> 00:07:01,390 meeting her and said it's okay. So they were very supportive of 111 00:07:01,390 --> 00:07:04,190 the whole introduction thing. She actually came up to Grover 112 00:07:04,190 --> 00:07:09,750 Beach to meet me. We met, We were talked for 113 00:07:09,750 --> 00:07:12,710 hours. I went to visit her in Laguna. 114 00:07:13,470 --> 00:07:16,390 At one point in time I was going to move to Laguna to live with 115 00:07:16,390 --> 00:07:19,470 her. It was a good relationship in 116 00:07:19,470 --> 00:07:22,190 the beginning. And then she chose, right before 117 00:07:22,190 --> 00:07:24,790 I was getting ready to move in with her that she decided she 118 00:07:24,790 --> 00:07:27,590 didn't want to do that and called my parents and told them 119 00:07:27,590 --> 00:07:31,480 to tell me that I couldn't come. And so after that it's just 120 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,520 always been a strained relationship since then and I 121 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,640 was 19 I think at that time, so. Yeah. 122 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,240 So how did that feel? Just like another rejection all 123 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,800 over again, like. Yeah, another abandonment. 124 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,800 Yeah. So, which is something that I 125 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:52,240 struggle with for sure, you know, over the years, is fear of 126 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:53,920 abandonment. Sure. 127 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:55,440 Is a big one. Yeah. 128 00:07:56,130 --> 00:07:58,730 So how was it with your adoptive parents growing up? 129 00:07:58,730 --> 00:08:01,410 Did you have a great experience with that? 130 00:08:01,690 --> 00:08:05,130 I did, I did. They were great parents, you 131 00:08:05,130 --> 00:08:08,370 know. I just have no complaints about 132 00:08:08,370 --> 00:08:10,450 my childhood. They were just awesome. 133 00:08:10,690 --> 00:08:13,330 They absolutely wanted me, cherish me, never treated me 134 00:08:13,330 --> 00:08:17,090 like I was adopted. They were always, you know, my 135 00:08:17,090 --> 00:08:20,890 parents for sure. My mom passed away about 18 136 00:08:20,890 --> 00:08:24,570 years ago and my dad remarried and that. 137 00:08:25,180 --> 00:08:31,460 Broke our relationship and unfortunately so we no longer 138 00:08:31,580 --> 00:08:36,380 communicate. And he has said things to my 139 00:08:36,380 --> 00:08:40,740 relatives that I'm adopted. I'm not his anyway, so I don't 140 00:08:40,740 --> 00:08:43,820 know if he always felt that way. I didn't feel that he felt that 141 00:08:43,820 --> 00:08:50,620 way, but he feels that way. So sadly, my mother never you 142 00:08:50,620 --> 00:08:53,060 know felt that way. I have a stepson and she treated 143 00:08:53,060 --> 00:08:56,200 my stepson like he. That was her grandchild as well, 144 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,400 you know. She was never the person who 145 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,720 treated anyone differently for being adopted or, you know, step 146 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,960 or half or anything. She was always very welcoming to 147 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,800 everyone. Yeah. 148 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,280 That had to be tough, yeah. Do you have any? 149 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,200 Did you have any siblings growing up in the adoptive 150 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,800 family? None my I had no siblings in my 151 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,680 adopted family. I have no siblings in my DNA 152 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:26,270 family. The good thing that happened 153 00:09:26,270 --> 00:09:29,950 with my biological mom was I met my biological father through her 154 00:09:30,470 --> 00:09:33,790 and my dad. My adopted dad actually had to 155 00:09:33,790 --> 00:09:38,550 call him and say it's okay to meet her because he said no, he 156 00:09:38,550 --> 00:09:40,990 didn't want to do that. They gave us up for adopt or 157 00:09:40,990 --> 00:09:44,110 gave me up for adoption and and he didn't want to intrude. 158 00:09:44,550 --> 00:09:47,230 So my dad actually called him and talked him into coming and 159 00:09:47,230 --> 00:09:51,430 meeting me and it's been just an amazing relationship. 160 00:09:51,430 --> 00:09:57,130 His whole family they have. Become our family, you know? 161 00:09:58,570 --> 00:10:01,410 Never. It feels like we were never 162 00:10:01,410 --> 00:10:04,330 without them, really, or I was never without them. 163 00:10:04,810 --> 00:10:06,690 They're just amazing, amazing people. 164 00:10:06,890 --> 00:10:08,810 So. Do they live by you? 165 00:10:09,370 --> 00:10:13,810 They live in Laguna. And they never had any kids. 166 00:10:14,850 --> 00:10:21,490 No, so my biological mother. I think personality wise 167 00:10:21,610 --> 00:10:24,050 probably chose not to have children. 168 00:10:24,730 --> 00:10:27,650 She married a man who was older than her, very wealthy. 169 00:10:28,490 --> 00:10:34,530 My biological dad when he was in Vietnam was injured severely 170 00:10:34,530 --> 00:10:39,810 with shrapnel and and I had malaria and so he actually with 171 00:10:39,810 --> 00:10:43,890 his marriage, first marriage ended because they couldn't have 172 00:10:43,890 --> 00:10:46,730 children and he never went and got tested because he thought I 173 00:10:46,730 --> 00:10:49,860 have a child, it's not me. And he finally went and got 174 00:10:49,860 --> 00:10:52,740 tested and they said that the malaria made him sterile, so he 175 00:10:52,740 --> 00:10:56,260 was unable to have children after Vietnam. 176 00:10:56,860 --> 00:10:59,900 So it's just me. Wow. 177 00:11:01,060 --> 00:11:05,380 So what was it like growing up knowing you're adopted, looking 178 00:11:05,380 --> 00:11:09,660 back to you see, besides, like, what you were talking about your 179 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:13,820 mom and how you kind of, you know, used your adoption with 180 00:11:13,820 --> 00:11:16,890 her? Did you see any other ways that 181 00:11:16,890 --> 00:11:20,490 adoption is affected you growing up even as like a teenager and 182 00:11:20,490 --> 00:11:23,450 then even into adulthood? How do you see adoption 183 00:11:23,450 --> 00:11:26,170 affecting you? You know, I think it's just 184 00:11:26,170 --> 00:11:32,290 really the common things that all of us adoptees feel. 185 00:11:32,490 --> 00:11:37,290 You know, strangely enough, I looked like my adoptive dad 186 00:11:37,370 --> 00:11:41,170 enough to where people just thought I look like him. 187 00:11:41,170 --> 00:11:43,850 We have the brown eyes and the brown hair, and it's very odd 188 00:11:43,850 --> 00:11:47,330 because. Him and my biological dad 189 00:11:47,610 --> 00:11:51,170 resemble each other. It's kind of eerie, but they do 190 00:11:51,170 --> 00:11:52,770 resemble each other. So I didn't have that. 191 00:11:52,770 --> 00:11:55,810 But my mom was tiny. She was 4 foot 11. 192 00:11:55,810 --> 00:11:59,370 I'm 5 foot eight. She was blonde, green eyed. 193 00:11:59,730 --> 00:12:05,010 We look nothing alike, you know? And so it was odd, you know, 194 00:12:05,650 --> 00:12:08,940 people. It was just clear that she 195 00:12:09,060 --> 00:12:12,180 obviously wasn't my mom. We had no similarities 196 00:12:12,180 --> 00:12:14,180 whatsoever. Our personality is nothing. 197 00:12:14,180 --> 00:12:16,260 She was amazing, but we were nothing alike. 198 00:12:16,740 --> 00:12:21,940 So just the common, I think, adoptee stuff of I don't look 199 00:12:21,940 --> 00:12:24,300 like anybody. We don't have the same 200 00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:27,500 interests, you know? I wanted to be this outgoing kid 201 00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:29,820 and my parents were very much homebodies. 202 00:12:30,460 --> 00:12:33,300 We traveled once a year to Kansas to visit family. 203 00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:36,990 But they didn't, you know, we weren't bike riders, We weren't 204 00:12:36,990 --> 00:12:39,190 sports players. And I so badly wanted to be that 205 00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:41,350 person, but that just wasn't in their DNA. 206 00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:46,350 And it's very much in my DNA. Our family's very active, very 207 00:12:46,350 --> 00:12:52,590 outgoing, not shy into sports, you know, So it was that was 208 00:12:52,590 --> 00:12:56,030 different, you know, doing, being that person that was so 209 00:12:56,030 --> 00:13:00,590 different from her parents. Was it interesting to see that 210 00:13:00,590 --> 00:13:04,990 mirroring in certain ways that you had no idea like where you 211 00:13:04,990 --> 00:13:08,830 got this or that from, or even personality traits? 212 00:13:08,910 --> 00:13:13,190 And even because I noticed with my reunions that, like with my 213 00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:17,150 sisters, even I talk kind of the same. 214 00:13:17,270 --> 00:13:18,990 Some of our mannerisms are the same. 215 00:13:18,990 --> 00:13:20,950 Those kind of things were kind of shocking to see. 216 00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:23,030 How did you feel? Did you see any of that 217 00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:27,510 mirroring with your biological? My biological dad and I are. 218 00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:32,110 It's just identical, really. The mannerisms more than 219 00:13:32,110 --> 00:13:35,670 anything. We are very much alike, which is 220 00:13:35,670 --> 00:13:37,790 so odd because we didn't grow up, you know, I didn't grow up 221 00:13:37,790 --> 00:13:40,030 with him. I met him when I was 1819. 222 00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:43,710 And and even now we get together, our sense of humor is 223 00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:47,030 alike. Our everything that we do, we 224 00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:49,750 look alike. You know, we all have the nose. 225 00:13:50,630 --> 00:13:55,030 Everybody has the nose. It's just very. 226 00:13:56,230 --> 00:14:01,070 It's it's very cool now to get with my cousins and be like oh I 227 00:14:01,070 --> 00:14:05,630 do that you know, I mean it's been many, many years now so but 228 00:14:05,710 --> 00:14:10,950 in the beginning it was just it was really cool to learn things 229 00:14:10,950 --> 00:14:13,110 and know things and get to know everyone. 230 00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:16,470 And I was fortunate enough to get to know my grandma Denny who 231 00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:21,430 is my biological dad's mom and I got to stay with her while she 232 00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:24,430 was ill stay the night with her and. 233 00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:28,650 Really get to know her and you know it's just and we were a lot 234 00:14:28,650 --> 00:14:30,370 alike. We have the same fingers and 235 00:14:30,370 --> 00:14:33,530 same fingernails and and that was really cool. 236 00:14:33,530 --> 00:14:37,330 So it's been a really great journey with the biological 237 00:14:37,330 --> 00:14:39,730 father's side. So there's. 238 00:14:40,250 --> 00:14:43,970 It's funny how you see, I think biological families take those 239 00:14:43,970 --> 00:14:46,490 little things for granted, but we're like looking for all those 240 00:14:46,890 --> 00:14:49,210 little things, those little, you know, like you were saying the 241 00:14:49,210 --> 00:14:51,650 fingernails and stuff. We like, notice those things 242 00:14:51,650 --> 00:14:53,090 right away. Yeah. 243 00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:55,910 So how did you find your biological dad? 244 00:14:56,870 --> 00:15:00,990 So my biological mom came to find me and then she got in 245 00:15:00,990 --> 00:15:03,070 touch with him and said she wants to meet you. 246 00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:10,030 And so it's an odd story. I mean, it starts way back when 247 00:15:10,950 --> 00:15:16,070 the Doctor Who delivered me was my doctor, a pediatrician, and 248 00:15:16,070 --> 00:15:17,910 his name was Doctor Roper, and he was just. 249 00:15:19,490 --> 00:15:23,250 Such a great doctor, but his nurse was my grandma, Denny, my 250 00:15:23,250 --> 00:15:26,490 biological grandma. So she got to watch me grow up. 251 00:15:26,490 --> 00:15:28,610 She knew who I was from the records. 252 00:15:29,130 --> 00:15:32,290 She knew who I was and she couldn't say anything. 253 00:15:32,610 --> 00:15:36,730 She told one of my aunts, the oldest aunt, as I was growing 254 00:15:36,730 --> 00:15:37,770 up. So she got to watch me. 255 00:15:37,770 --> 00:15:40,770 She got to see me have my shots and grow up and all my checkups 256 00:15:40,810 --> 00:15:45,250 and everything. So she knew what I look like and 257 00:15:45,250 --> 00:15:51,000 how I grew up, and then my. Biological dad, oddly enough, 258 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,440 was a police officer as well, and he went to work for Laguna 259 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,760 Beach Police Department right before my adopted dad became the 260 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,400 chief and Grover before we moved. 261 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,640 And my adopted dad actually sat on the oral board while my 262 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,440 biological dad was being interviewed, not knowing who the 263 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,040 other one was. So he had become a police 264 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,960 officer in Laguna and the police chief. 265 00:16:18,650 --> 00:16:24,850 It was my adoptive dad's best friend and I called him uncle 266 00:16:24,850 --> 00:16:29,530 the whole time I was growing up. When my adoptive dad called my 267 00:16:29,530 --> 00:16:32,170 biological dad, I don't know if this is getting confusing. 268 00:16:32,770 --> 00:16:34,930 Called my biological dad, said she wants to meet you. 269 00:16:35,530 --> 00:16:40,210 He said give me some time and he went to the police chief, my 270 00:16:40,210 --> 00:16:43,050 uncle, and said I have this issue. 271 00:16:43,050 --> 00:16:45,890 I don't know what to do. I need to speak with somebody. 272 00:16:46,690 --> 00:16:50,330 And so he started to explain, you know, in 1968, we gave up a 273 00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:53,370 little girl. Now she wants to meet me. 274 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:55,970 She lives up north. And my uncle stopped him and 275 00:16:55,970 --> 00:17:00,890 said you're Kelly Brown's dad, because we look so much alike. 276 00:17:00,890 --> 00:17:03,090 He just knew who he was talking about. 277 00:17:04,970 --> 00:17:07,569 And so he helped to talk him into, you know, getting to know 278 00:17:07,569 --> 00:17:11,609 me, which is, you know, such a blessing because it's been such 279 00:17:11,609 --> 00:17:15,430 a great relationship. So it's just there's a lot of 280 00:17:15,430 --> 00:17:18,790 ins and outs, I guess because we were in a small town, there was 281 00:17:18,790 --> 00:17:22,630 a lot of small town coincidences, you know, a lot of 282 00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:26,030 things that happened that brought us all together. 283 00:17:26,030 --> 00:17:30,630 So that was really nice. You you you told me in an e-mail 284 00:17:30,630 --> 00:17:32,710 that we have a lot in common in our stories. 285 00:17:32,750 --> 00:17:36,070 And I have to tell you my biological father was a police 286 00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:40,960 officer too. Isn't that funny that? 287 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:42,760 Is crazy. Yeah. 288 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,600 Usually there were differences too, but there were 289 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,080 similarities. You know, I just, as I listened 290 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,840 to your story, I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. 291 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,400 Crazy. So let's talk about the fog for 292 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,920 a minute. Do you ever, do you use that 293 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,240 word? Were you ever in the fog? 294 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,000 Are you still in it? I think you're out. 295 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,120 You know, I've never really used it. 296 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:11,130 I've learned that from. Emma's books and your story and 297 00:18:11,210 --> 00:18:17,090 listening to more adoptee stuff. So I've never used the word, but 298 00:18:17,090 --> 00:18:21,090 I completely understand it. I was definitely in it for many, 299 00:18:21,090 --> 00:18:24,410 many years. I'm not in it anymore. 300 00:18:24,610 --> 00:18:25,770 I just. I am me. 301 00:18:25,770 --> 00:18:29,050 I am who I am. I, you know, I'm who I want to 302 00:18:29,050 --> 00:18:35,810 be without any hesitation. So it's definitely something I 303 00:18:35,810 --> 00:18:37,750 understand. For sure. 304 00:18:37,910 --> 00:18:41,030 How did that show up? How did what did the fog look 305 00:18:41,030 --> 00:18:45,950 like for you? I don't know. 306 00:18:45,950 --> 00:18:49,430 I think in all the same ways it does for everybody else, you 307 00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:52,310 know, that's adopted. It's just such a common thread 308 00:18:52,310 --> 00:18:55,470 that we all share, you know, in life. 309 00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:59,110 I think you know it's. It's funny too because the 310 00:18:59,110 --> 00:19:03,270 closest friends I've had, I've again not like your story. 311 00:19:03,390 --> 00:19:05,680 I didn't have a lot of. Friends. 312 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,640 I was kind of a loner, kind of, you know, doing my own thing. 313 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,160 The, the very two close friends I have were both adopted. 314 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,640 And we didn't become friends because we were adopted. 315 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,440 I think that it's just something that you gravitate towards. 316 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,920 And I think that the three of us being friends since we were like 317 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,880 15 years old has helped all three of us understand, you 318 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,520 know, life and the fog and, you know, getting out of it and 319 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,280 being your own person and coming to light. 320 00:19:34,810 --> 00:19:38,690 Definitely, yeah. So you happen to be related to 321 00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:41,490 kind of a celebrity of sorts in the adoptee community? 322 00:19:42,210 --> 00:19:45,210 I do. And she's been on the podcast 323 00:19:45,210 --> 00:19:48,010 before. And her author name is Emma 324 00:19:48,010 --> 00:19:49,730 Stevens. And she's written two books, A 325 00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:51,810 Gathering Place and A Fire is Coming. 326 00:19:52,130 --> 00:19:56,130 Both books are great books. And Emma is here with us as well 327 00:19:56,130 --> 00:19:57,850 today. So let's welcome Emma to the 328 00:19:57,850 --> 00:19:58,610 show. Hi, Emma. 329 00:19:59,430 --> 00:20:01,870 Hey. How have you been? 330 00:20:01,870 --> 00:20:03,430 I've been. Really good. 331 00:20:03,550 --> 00:20:06,710 And I'm just so good to see Kelly here and see you, Melissa. 332 00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:08,870 I know. Thanks for hooking us up and 333 00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:12,030 coming on with us. And so when you were on, Mind 334 00:20:12,030 --> 00:20:15,830 Your own Carmen the Past. You didn't use your real name 335 00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:18,230 for quite a while. I knew you was Emma. 336 00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:21,530 And I remember you telling me that I couldn't use your picture 337 00:20:21,530 --> 00:20:25,330 in the promos and don't use any videos, you know for anything. 338 00:20:25,330 --> 00:20:28,490 But recently you've made a few changes, so why don't you tell 339 00:20:28,490 --> 00:20:32,330 us why you chose to use a pseudo name in the 1st place and 340 00:20:32,770 --> 00:20:34,410 what's? Changed recently and why? 341 00:20:36,830 --> 00:20:41,830 Well, I'm and this just all came about last week, so it's very 342 00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:43,310 timely. OK. 343 00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:47,950 That I was able. I was honored to be on fireside 344 00:20:47,950 --> 00:20:52,770 adoptees. And Greg Gentry was my host and 345 00:20:52,770 --> 00:20:57,250 he interviewed me and I kind of laid it all out there of why I 346 00:20:57,250 --> 00:21:01,930 used a pseudonym and why I feel like now it's time to come clean 347 00:21:01,930 --> 00:21:06,970 and let everyone know that Emma is a part of me and she will 348 00:21:06,970 --> 00:21:08,090 write again. But. 349 00:21:08,750 --> 00:21:13,510 She's is part of Linda Campbell P Vac and that's my real name 350 00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:17,430 and I'm trying to get the integration happening to where 351 00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:20,790 people will understand that and I know it's been confusing and I 352 00:21:20,790 --> 00:21:25,950 have to thank hosts like you that for two years now have been 353 00:21:25,950 --> 00:21:29,550 trying to trip over. Calling me by the right name and 354 00:21:29,710 --> 00:21:34,630 in fact I've outed myself by saying Linda on a podcast and 355 00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:37,350 they finally gone back in and edited out. 356 00:21:38,670 --> 00:21:42,550 And Kelly will get a kick out of this because we share a cousin 357 00:21:42,550 --> 00:21:47,460 by the name of Stephanie. And she was forever trying to 358 00:21:47,460 --> 00:21:50,740 say to me, everything's OK, Linda, I'm not going to tag you 359 00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:54,660 on social media, but if a picture would come up, I would 360 00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:57,660 be calling her saying you've got to remove that immediately. 361 00:21:57,660 --> 00:22:02,900 He's always gracious and did it. But it was important to me to 362 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:08,820 use a pseudonym because my family, my adoptive family, were 363 00:22:08,820 --> 00:22:12,460 of the attitude that it was a taboo subject. 364 00:22:12,910 --> 00:22:16,590 We never speak about me being adopted at any time that would 365 00:22:16,590 --> 00:22:19,270 happen. They felt like it took away from 366 00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:24,710 them and made them feel inferior and that I would be selfish and 367 00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:28,110 ungrateful to even think about wanting to meet a biological 368 00:22:28,110 --> 00:22:31,390 family. But also my parents have 369 00:22:31,630 --> 00:22:37,030 recently passed and the the reason to use a pseudonym has 370 00:22:37,470 --> 00:22:41,700 kind of dissolved. So for my psychological, my 371 00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:46,380 mental health, I felt like it was really important to not use 372 00:22:46,380 --> 00:22:49,820 a fictitious name anymore and to be myself. 373 00:22:50,220 --> 00:22:53,980 You know, my own birth mother used a fictitious name, and I 374 00:22:53,980 --> 00:22:58,180 would have been unable to ever find her because I have a fake 375 00:22:58,180 --> 00:23:02,980 name on my birth certificate. And as you know, I went through 376 00:23:02,980 --> 00:23:05,900 extreme measures to find her real name. 377 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:12,560 But I thought it ironic that this theme of using fake names 378 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,120 went throughout my life. And so I finally thought, our 379 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:19,480 secrets only make us sick and I need to come clean and it feels 380 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:20,920 so good. I have to tell you, I'm so I. 381 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:24,400 Bet, I bet. So what kind of triggered that? 382 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,200 Just over time, you just kind of had that feeling that this needs 383 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,490 to be different. Well, in my second book, the 384 00:23:33,490 --> 00:23:36,850 fire is coming. I allude to it in this almost 385 00:23:36,850 --> 00:23:42,050 the last chapter where I tell my reader that, you know, 386 00:23:42,050 --> 00:23:46,330 ironically, I'm using a pseudonym and I have started to 387 00:23:46,330 --> 00:23:49,530 attribute my writing ability to my pseudonym. 388 00:23:50,570 --> 00:23:55,490 And so it kind of became a tricky thing of my psyche being 389 00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:58,290 split. And so for my mental health, I 390 00:23:58,290 --> 00:24:02,640 had to say, now, wait a minute. Emma's a part of Linda and 391 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,320 Linda's poor self. We all have a lot of parts in 392 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,160 us, you know. I'm not trying to say they're 393 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,720 real severe, but it was important to me to no longer. 394 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,720 It kind of became a fantasy and I was attributing my abilities 395 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,880 to something outside myself, which that's not the case. 396 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,880 It's all within me. Yeah. 397 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,760 So you talked a little bit about having your parents pass, and 398 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,960 that kind of gives you that freedom to. 399 00:24:29,850 --> 00:24:32,810 To open up, you know, some of those doors that you've locked 400 00:24:32,810 --> 00:24:34,930 because you're trying not to hurt everybody. 401 00:24:35,290 --> 00:24:39,370 Talk about that a little bit. I mean, did you feel, you know, 402 00:24:39,370 --> 00:24:44,770 how did you feel about that? Did you feel kind of, like angry 403 00:24:44,770 --> 00:24:45,930 at? Them that you couldn't. 404 00:24:47,130 --> 00:24:51,450 Be free. I was very censored and if I 405 00:24:51,450 --> 00:24:56,780 were to have used my voice, any. In with my own name and let them 406 00:24:56,780 --> 00:24:58,700 know that I'm going to tell my story. 407 00:24:59,180 --> 00:25:02,820 There would just be there was no repair of the relationship at 408 00:25:02,820 --> 00:25:06,060 the stage of the game. There would never be enough time 409 00:25:06,060 --> 00:25:09,940 for them to forgive. And you know, want me to be the 410 00:25:09,940 --> 00:25:14,220 person that I am implies that was kind of outside the capacity 411 00:25:14,220 --> 00:25:17,140 of them to do it was their nature. 412 00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:22,380 And so I used a pseudonym so I could use my voice and not wait 413 00:25:22,380 --> 00:25:25,270 for people to pass. And I know a lot of people 414 00:25:25,270 --> 00:25:30,270 writing their memoirs do that. They wait till the parents pass 415 00:25:30,350 --> 00:25:34,230 to not hurt them. But I decided that I could use a 416 00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:38,270 pseudonym and and do it now. Yeah, and still. 417 00:25:38,270 --> 00:25:40,550 Get your truth out there. And still get my truth out 418 00:25:40,550 --> 00:25:42,590 there. So were they still alive when 419 00:25:42,590 --> 00:25:44,430 you wrote, when your books came out? 420 00:25:45,390 --> 00:25:49,030 Yes, they were both alive during the gathering place. 421 00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:53,540 And actually, no. My mother had passed last 422 00:25:53,540 --> 00:25:58,020 summer, about this time last summer, and a fire is coming. 423 00:25:58,020 --> 00:26:03,620 Came out in February of 2023. Did they read the books? 424 00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:06,100 Oh no, they had no idea I wrote anything. 425 00:26:06,260 --> 00:26:09,580 Oh wow, They. Had no idea. 426 00:26:09,860 --> 00:26:12,260 Oh wow, that was a big. Thing it works. 427 00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:15,300 I was. I was completely Incognito. 428 00:26:15,580 --> 00:26:18,300 Wow, no wonder you freaked out when your cousin put that 429 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:20,770 picture up there. Yes, yes. 430 00:26:21,370 --> 00:26:24,690 Holy moly. So let's bring Kelly back into 431 00:26:24,690 --> 00:26:27,290 the mix here. So how did you guys meet? 432 00:26:27,290 --> 00:26:33,210 Are you biologically related then or adoptive family related? 433 00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:36,050 Biologically. Oh, wow. 434 00:26:36,210 --> 00:26:40,010 Biologically. So she's on my biological 435 00:26:40,010 --> 00:26:44,450 father's mother's side, My biological grandmother's 436 00:26:44,610 --> 00:26:47,290 paternal grandmother's side is where she's at. 437 00:26:48,010 --> 00:26:51,850 Isn't there? So we just recently met in 438 00:26:51,850 --> 00:26:56,690 person, but we've, you know, Facebooked for a long time and 439 00:26:56,690 --> 00:26:58,890 messaged and. But we just finally got to meet 440 00:26:58,890 --> 00:27:01,650 in person and it was a big group gathering. 441 00:27:01,650 --> 00:27:05,570 So we didn't get a lot of one-on-one time, but that'll 442 00:27:05,570 --> 00:27:08,530 come next. Next time we go to visit, we'll 443 00:27:09,250 --> 00:27:11,410 take off and you know, do a little. 444 00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:13,590 Private time? Or maybe with Stephanie? 445 00:27:16,030 --> 00:27:18,910 So was it DNA? Through DNA you guys found each 446 00:27:18,910 --> 00:27:23,470 other or? It was through DNA and I first 447 00:27:23,470 --> 00:27:28,510 found my cousin Stephanie, who confirmed that my suspicion of 448 00:27:28,510 --> 00:27:34,990 my birth father was correct. And so that would be. 449 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,320 I I was on the paternal side and they told me about Kelly and her 450 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,760 fantastical adoption story. So, well, first of all, my 451 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,200 daughter did her DNA, but it was really just to find out those 452 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:54,240 quirky things that they'll say, you know, you have, I don't 453 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,600 know, short fingers or you, you're more likely to get 454 00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:59,640 eczema. I don't know. 455 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,920 And she said, but mom, the weirdest thing is that there are 456 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,960 relatives showing up on my report and I don't know who they 457 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,690 are. And I just dropped dead in my 458 00:28:08,690 --> 00:28:10,810 tracks and I was just like, what? 459 00:28:12,010 --> 00:28:15,690 And at that point, I didn't know if they were my relatives or her 460 00:28:15,690 --> 00:28:19,330 father's side. And when I started looking at 461 00:28:19,330 --> 00:28:22,610 the list of the people and I immediately reverted to my 462 00:28:22,770 --> 00:28:26,450 investigative skills that I had back in the 80s when I found my 463 00:28:26,450 --> 00:28:31,250 birth parents and was able to start making a family tree out 464 00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:34,090 of names. And then there was the surname. 465 00:28:34,820 --> 00:28:38,740 That Kelly's familiar with of Newman And I thought, what are 466 00:28:38,740 --> 00:28:41,940 the chances? And I happen to know that from 467 00:28:41,940 --> 00:28:44,820 my past. It's a long story, but Newman 468 00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:48,860 was supposedly my biological father, or possibly. 469 00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:52,500 And so then I confirmed that. And then once I did meet the 470 00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:57,180 family of my paternal side, they said, well, your story's great, 471 00:28:57,220 --> 00:28:59,980 but you've got to hear Kelly's because she's got a doozy. 472 00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:06,300 So. There's a lot, a lot of ins and 473 00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:08,180 outs, yeah. So were you. 474 00:29:08,180 --> 00:29:12,100 Did she show up as a first cousin on Ancestry or your DNA 475 00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:14,740 tests or? I don't believe Kelly had 476 00:29:14,740 --> 00:29:19,380 actually done the 23 Andme ancestry. 477 00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:21,220 I did. Ancestry. 478 00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:24,540 And at that time I wouldn't have even known your name, especially 479 00:29:24,540 --> 00:29:27,300 with your married last name. It was. 480 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:30,380 Well, and I think that I did it after. 481 00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:34,260 I think it was after I knew. That's right. 482 00:29:34,810 --> 00:29:39,650 But I was able to confirm Kelly because of the cousin of mine 483 00:29:40,130 --> 00:29:44,610 that I did test very high with, and then she was able to tell me 484 00:29:44,610 --> 00:29:50,130 about Kelly. I feel like we tested like third 485 00:29:50,130 --> 00:29:53,170 or fourth, something like that. I feel like I can't remember for 486 00:29:53,170 --> 00:29:55,730 sure, but I think that. My first cousin once removed. 487 00:29:57,010 --> 00:29:58,970 Right. But I don't think they tested it 488 00:29:58,970 --> 00:30:02,530 as we as you did with Steph for some reason maybe, I don't know. 489 00:30:02,610 --> 00:30:06,410 Yeah. I'll have to Kelly's biological 490 00:30:06,410 --> 00:30:08,970 father is my cousin, my first. Cousin. 491 00:30:09,010 --> 00:30:11,610 OK, got it. Now I got it. 492 00:30:11,770 --> 00:30:14,970 Yeah. So how are you guys? 493 00:30:15,010 --> 00:30:17,770 Like are you, you're both adopted, So do you guys have 494 00:30:17,770 --> 00:30:21,530 those conversations and like have that kind of linked to each 495 00:30:21,530 --> 00:30:24,850 other and that little bond of adoption? 496 00:30:25,890 --> 00:30:30,410 We're just beginning, really. Because it's been I live far 497 00:30:30,410 --> 00:30:34,490 away and I've been to California twice but have only met Kelly 498 00:30:34,490 --> 00:30:36,930 once. And like Kelly said, we had a 499 00:30:36,970 --> 00:30:40,770 lot of family member there members there and it didn't 500 00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:44,770 didn't lend us the opportunity to get, you know, off by 501 00:30:44,770 --> 00:30:48,450 ourselves, but especially after this podcast, I know we will. 502 00:30:49,930 --> 00:30:53,290 Yes, absolutely, absolutely. We chatted. 503 00:30:53,410 --> 00:30:57,850 We chatted the other night for a few minutes and we have. 504 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,240 A lot of stuff in common, for sure. 505 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,040 We could probably talk for hours and hours and hours about it, 506 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,200 I'm sure. That's what happens. 507 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,600 That's definitely what happened. So let's have a little bit of 508 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,280 adoptee conversation. Just I love because I used to do 509 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,720 kind of group offer YouTube and stuff and I like, love having 510 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,520 the group here to kind of get things talking. 511 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,440 So do you think you can heal from the primal wounds? 512 00:31:25,010 --> 00:31:28,250 And if you think yes, how did you do that? 513 00:31:28,250 --> 00:31:36,170 You want to go, Emma? Sure, I don't think you could 514 00:31:36,250 --> 00:31:39,330 ever get rid of it. The primal wound, because it is 515 00:31:39,330 --> 00:31:43,570 a part of us, it can heal over. Just like with any wound you get 516 00:31:43,570 --> 00:31:47,210 a scab. And and it really depends how 517 00:31:48,130 --> 00:31:49,970 you know. Here you have this, now what are 518 00:31:49,970 --> 00:31:55,050 you going to do with it? And I've decided for myself that 519 00:31:55,570 --> 00:31:58,850 I've wanted to take away all the erroneous things. 520 00:31:58,850 --> 00:32:03,130 I've always thought about myself of being an unwanted baby, a bad 521 00:32:03,130 --> 00:32:07,970 baby. You know, all of those that I'll 522 00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:10,010 always be abandoned, that kind of thing. 523 00:32:10,330 --> 00:32:13,890 Those are implicit memories that I have, that I developed with, 524 00:32:14,370 --> 00:32:17,850 but I've challenged them now to say those aren't true. 525 00:32:18,790 --> 00:32:22,190 I have the choice to believe him or not, and I've chosen for 526 00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:26,230 myself, that I've befriended my primal wound and it's going to 527 00:32:26,230 --> 00:32:29,550 be my kind of superpower now. It's always going to be with me, 528 00:32:29,830 --> 00:32:34,950 but I am choosing to kind of step out of a broken story, into 529 00:32:35,630 --> 00:32:39,350 the story I want it to be. Yeah, I wish more adoptees would 530 00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:41,070 kind of make that correlation where. 531 00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:45,780 It can be your superpower and you can help so many people 532 00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:49,980 through your story and how you've healed and how you have 533 00:32:49,980 --> 00:32:52,140 found your authentic self. Because I think that's a big 534 00:32:52,140 --> 00:32:56,340 deal in the adopted community is trying to conform to the family 535 00:32:56,340 --> 00:32:59,460 that you're in and you know you're the expectations they 536 00:32:59,460 --> 00:33:01,820 have of you and all those things. 537 00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:04,460 So you don't feel that rejection and abandonment again. 538 00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:09,140 But I just wish people would embrace. 539 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,760 Their essence, you know, and realize that they were put here 540 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,600 in this position to actually help other people. 541 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,840 And I have a saying up here. It says my big biggest 542 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,480 breakthrough moments happen when I finally admit that I'm tired 543 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,960 of my own shit. And that's kind of what happened 544 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:32,040 to me, you know, is you kind of have to be sick and tired of 545 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,640 being sick and tired before you can kind of come around and just 546 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,520 start looking and trying to find yourself, you know? 547 00:33:40,060 --> 00:33:42,660 That's so huge, I think, in the adopted community. 548 00:33:43,380 --> 00:33:45,260 What about you, Kelly? What do you think about the 549 00:33:45,260 --> 00:33:48,980 primal lound? I just. 550 00:33:49,540 --> 00:33:55,260 I think that I just relate it to trauma these days. 551 00:33:55,780 --> 00:34:03,260 It's just something, you know, I I lost a grandchild at 18 months 552 00:34:03,260 --> 00:34:07,460 old, and it taught me a lot about trauma. 553 00:34:07,540 --> 00:34:09,219 I've had to learn a lot about trauma. 554 00:34:10,330 --> 00:34:16,290 His older brother, my first grandson, has definitely got 555 00:34:16,290 --> 00:34:22,170 some lingering trauma from it. And I think that at the older I 556 00:34:22,170 --> 00:34:26,010 get, the more I relate it to that type of feeling. 557 00:34:26,010 --> 00:34:27,929 It's like a trauma. There are things that trigger it 558 00:34:27,929 --> 00:34:31,449 and things that bring it out more than other things. 559 00:34:31,449 --> 00:34:34,929 You know, it's something I think you just have to. 560 00:34:35,810 --> 00:34:38,449 I think it's just so much easier as you get older. 561 00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:41,550 Because you come into your own, I think it's tougher when you're 562 00:34:41,550 --> 00:34:44,150 young because you're trying to do everything for everybody 563 00:34:44,150 --> 00:34:45,830 else. And when you finally get to that 564 00:34:45,830 --> 00:34:48,590 age where you go, I don't care what anybody else wants. 565 00:34:48,750 --> 00:34:50,030 I'm going to do what I want to do. 566 00:34:50,030 --> 00:34:51,230 I'm going to say what I want to say. 567 00:34:51,230 --> 00:34:54,150 I want to be who I want to be. It gets a little bit easier. 568 00:34:54,150 --> 00:34:57,550 But I think it is definitely a triggering type of thing, a 569 00:34:57,550 --> 00:34:59,750 trauma thing throughout your life. 570 00:34:59,750 --> 00:35:01,710 You know, there are certain things that are just going to 571 00:35:01,710 --> 00:35:04,230 bring it up and trigger it, you know? 572 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,960 I do think that we are making a difference though, you know, 573 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,280 getting out there and telling our stories and writing books 574 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,000 and all those things I'm seeing in the younger adoptee community 575 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,480 that they're coming around a lot sooner than we did, you know, 576 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,400 And I think that we are making a difference there, which is so 577 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,240 huge, and I think that's great. So to end, I just like to ask 578 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:31,000 the question, what would you like struggling adoptees to 579 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:37,600 know? I would just say it's going to 580 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,400 be okay. It's going to be okay. 581 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,120 You're going to be okay. Get out there and get the 582 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,600 information younger like what you said, you know, get get out 583 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,480 there and research it. Get. 584 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,120 I mean, I didn't realize how much was out there until Emma 585 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,800 came along. I mean it's just craziness. 586 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,200 There's so much there's just, it's just everywhere and I 587 00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,920 didn't realize that. And so there's so much 588 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:01,720 information and so much help and. 589 00:36:02,070 --> 00:36:06,110 You know, just get out there while you're young and figure it 590 00:36:06,110 --> 00:36:09,350 out and get over it and move on and live your life. 591 00:36:09,790 --> 00:36:13,030 You know it's not who you are. You're an adoptee. 592 00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:16,590 You know you're an adoptee, but it's not who you are. 593 00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:22,470 And I would just springboard right off of what Kelly said, is 594 00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:27,870 that to realize that we have choice and that we need to give, 595 00:36:27,950 --> 00:36:30,670 adoptees need to give their own selves permission. 596 00:36:31,470 --> 00:36:35,830 To step into their authenticity, into their lives and realize 597 00:36:35,830 --> 00:36:39,910 that life wants life. I say that I think in the first 598 00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:45,350 book of it kind of dispels that whole idea of oh, I'm unwanted, 599 00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:48,310 Well, really because you're here, you're having this human 600 00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:51,870 experience here on earth. So it's up to you. 601 00:36:51,950 --> 00:36:56,390 You have the choice whether you want to own it or or do anything 602 00:36:56,390 --> 00:36:58,790 else with it. So I would just be encouraging 603 00:36:59,190 --> 00:37:02,040 to. Yeah, just make those choices 604 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:03,440 for yourself. What's right for you? 605 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,160 Yeah. You gave me chills. 606 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,400 I know I said that in my last podcast episode where I didn't 607 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,200 know I had a choice. I didn't know I could be who I 608 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,080 wanted to be, who I needed to be. 609 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,320 I I know I didn't know. And and it sounds so crazy to me 610 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,240 saying that now, you know, looking back, I'm like. 611 00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:27,680 Why did I not know? That, but I just felt like I had 612 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,000 to do whatever was supposed to be done next. 613 00:37:30,330 --> 00:37:32,890 What was ever expected? Just like. 614 00:37:34,090 --> 00:37:38,290 I didn't know all of this was out here until about 6 years ago 615 00:37:39,010 --> 00:37:42,650 and started uncovering one thing led to another, to another, to 616 00:37:42,650 --> 00:37:46,210 another. And I think that we're studying 617 00:37:46,210 --> 00:37:47,410 path. Even the people. 618 00:37:47,410 --> 00:37:51,050 There were people in the 60s, Betty Jean Lifton and Nancy 619 00:37:51,050 --> 00:37:53,770 Verrier. They've paid a path that's made 620 00:37:53,770 --> 00:37:57,010 it a little easier for us and now our next people will be a 621 00:37:57,010 --> 00:38:00,120 little easier for them. Definitely. 622 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,680 I think it's our mission, really. 623 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:07,520 It's a it's a for me, it's something I have to do, and I 624 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,640 didn't like you until I got into the community. 625 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,480 I had no idea I had a, you know, great adoption experience. 626 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,040 I still had the primal wound, but I didn't. 627 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,960 It didn't affect me as much as a lot of people. 628 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,960 And then when I got out there and saw so much pain and hurt 629 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,040 and all the things, I was just blown away. 630 00:38:26,490 --> 00:38:30,450 And immediately change the focus of my podcast, I was just like, 631 00:38:30,890 --> 00:38:33,970 I have to do something. I have to, you know, I have to 632 00:38:33,970 --> 00:38:36,890 do my part. I just felt that pull to do 633 00:38:36,890 --> 00:38:39,010 that. So yeah, I think that's kind of 634 00:38:39,010 --> 00:38:41,610 all our responsibilities as adoptees to help. 635 00:38:42,890 --> 00:38:45,450 So Linda, tell us about. Any links Social media? 636 00:38:45,450 --> 00:38:47,850 Pages, Websites. How do we get a hold of you? 637 00:38:47,850 --> 00:38:50,290 How do we get your books? Well, I. 638 00:38:50,330 --> 00:38:55,690 Am on the socials and it would just be at Emma Stevens, writer. 639 00:38:57,650 --> 00:39:00,730 I am on Amazon and Audible for the books. 640 00:39:00,730 --> 00:39:05,130 That's on, you know, Paperback, Kindle and then also on Audible 641 00:39:05,130 --> 00:39:08,690 if you prefer that. Awesome. 642 00:39:08,690 --> 00:39:11,290 We'll have all those links in the show notes so people can 643 00:39:11,290 --> 00:39:14,690 find you. Thank you, ladies, for coming on 644 00:39:14,690 --> 00:39:18,450 Mind your own karma today and discussing your adoption stories 645 00:39:18,450 --> 00:39:21,330 with me again, Emma. And nice to meet you, Kelly. 646 00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:26,070 I want to thank Emma and Kelly for coming on the show today. 647 00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:30,590 It does feel strange to me to call Emma Linda because I've 648 00:39:30,590 --> 00:39:33,910 known her as Emma since the beginning, so I'm not sure what 649 00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:37,670 I'm going to end up calling her. But it makes me so happy when I 650 00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:43,190 see adoptees breaking out of that mold of what I'm supposed 651 00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:45,910 to do. And who am I hurting by telling 652 00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:49,070 my truth? And oh, I can't say that because 653 00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:52,870 this person might hear it. But these are the things that 654 00:39:52,870 --> 00:39:57,430 adoptees struggle with every day, trying to juggle adoptive 655 00:39:57,430 --> 00:40:01,670 family, biological family, and then our own truth. 656 00:40:02,150 --> 00:40:04,870 But we're just so terrified that we're going to hurt someone, 657 00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:06,790 that they're going to leave us again, that they're going to 658 00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:11,350 abandon us again, that we hold in our truth until we feel safe 659 00:40:11,350 --> 00:40:14,270 enough to tell it. And a lot of times, it's not 660 00:40:14,270 --> 00:40:19,390 until people have passed that we feel like we have the freedom to 661 00:40:19,390 --> 00:40:21,810 do that. And I know a lot of listeners 662 00:40:21,810 --> 00:40:25,010 are probably not wanting to tell their story on a podcast for 663 00:40:25,010 --> 00:40:29,210 that exact same reason. And I just want to say I totally 664 00:40:29,210 --> 00:40:32,850 understand you. And I hope that at some point 665 00:40:32,890 --> 00:40:36,210 you feel free enough to be able to tell your truth. 666 00:40:36,850 --> 00:40:41,050 Because there is an adoptee out there that has a wound in the 667 00:40:41,050 --> 00:40:46,250 exact same shape as your story, and they need to hear your 668 00:40:46,250 --> 00:40:49,510 story. They need to hear that they're 669 00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:52,550 not alone. And that's the whole point of 670 00:40:52,550 --> 00:40:56,950 this podcast, not only educating the world, but helping other 671 00:40:56,950 --> 00:41:01,830 adoptees feel that there is some community and some validation 672 00:41:01,830 --> 00:41:05,790 out there. So thank you, Emma, for showing 673 00:41:05,790 --> 00:41:10,030 us adoptees that it's okay to peel off another layer of that 674 00:41:10,030 --> 00:41:14,550 onion and show your truth. I'd like to remind everyone that 675 00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:17,550 Emma's been on the podcast a couple of times before. 676 00:41:17,550 --> 00:41:23,830 So if you go back to episodes 44 and 52, we talk specifically 677 00:41:23,830 --> 00:41:28,390 about her Story and her two books, A Gathering Place and A 678 00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:31,350 Fire Is Coming. If you are looking for another 679 00:41:31,350 --> 00:41:36,310 adoptee Story, A Gathering Place is a great book. 680 00:41:36,630 --> 00:41:40,750 One of my favorite parts is when she talks about the lengths that 681 00:41:40,750 --> 00:41:45,060 she had to go through. To get her adopted information, 682 00:41:45,620 --> 00:41:48,900 it is unbelievable what she had to do. 683 00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:52,180 So if you get the book just to read that part, it's totally 684 00:41:52,180 --> 00:41:56,380 worth it. A Fire is Coming is a thriller 685 00:41:57,060 --> 00:41:59,900 and you will read that in one setting because you will not 686 00:41:59,900 --> 00:42:03,460 want to put it down. It is for everyone because 687 00:42:03,620 --> 00:42:09,660 anyone can fall prey to a doctor, a psychologist, anyone 688 00:42:09,660 --> 00:42:12,820 in authority. When you are vulnerable, 689 00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:17,580 whenever I tell anyone about the fire is coming, I always say 690 00:42:17,580 --> 00:42:20,820 that it could be a movie. It would be The Fatal Attraction 691 00:42:20,820 --> 00:42:23,340 of therapists. And again, you can find the 692 00:42:23,340 --> 00:42:25,540 links to these two great books in the show notes. 693 00:42:26,660 --> 00:42:30,260 Thanks for joining me today for this episode and if you need to 694 00:42:30,260 --> 00:42:33,380 get a hold of me, all my links are in the show notes. 695 00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:38,180 As always, take what you need and leave what you don't and 696 00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:40,820 always remember to mind your own karma. 697 00:42:41,590 --> 00:42:42,750 I'll see you next time.