Hey there. It's Melissa.
Brunetti and welcome to the mind your own Karma podcast.
Hey, their karma crew. Thanks for joining me for
another episode of mind. Your own Karma.
The adoption Chronicles. I just want to say real quick,
we will be approaching 100 episodes at the end of summer
and that is super exciting. A great milestone for mind, your
own Karma and myself. So thanks so much for hanging in
there with me through all the changes and the twists and
turns. I truly appreciate each and
every one. One of you.
So let's jump right into today's episode today.
I have a very insightful, young man.
Frankie Cohen on the show today. Let me tell you a little bit
about Frankie. Frankie was born in Seoul, South
Korea, and adopted at 5 months old to a family in Portland.
Oregon being adopted has posed many challenges in his life.
Most of them still unresolved. However, over the past couple
years he has been working diligently to try and Himself
from the wounds of his past through deep self-reflection
support from his loved ones and the willingness to be a better
person. Frankie has come a long way.
He, thanks you for listening to his story today.
Here is my interview with Frankie Cohen so we're welcoming
Frankie Cohen to the show today. I Frankie how you doing?
All right, I'm good. Yes, so let's just jump right in
and tell us what, you know, about the circumstances has of
your adoption. Well, I know that I was adopted
through an agency called Holt's. I think their own organization
that hosts a lot of adoptions and Korea, specifically, South
Korea, specifically but maybe other areas in Asia and I was
adopted at 5 months old, I was in foster care system up until
when I was born, when I came to the United States.
And yeah, that's pretty much my story.
I don't know too much. On that, I think I had a broken
collarbone. When I was born, my bones are
soft and so I think I did have some like medical issues.
It's right at the beginning. Mmm, which kind of, I don't
know. Complicated things in terms of
just needing, you know, attention and whatnot.
So yeah, so you don't know the circumstances like why your
mother gave you up or you don't know any of that stuff?
Yeah, they kept that pretty private.
Unfortunately. Yeah and especially in Korean.
Culture. You know, I think I don't know
this is like the story but like they had me out of wedlock and
that's very frowned upon and green societies.
So yeah, I assumed that it was kept pretty secret my birth so
and then you are saying the agency that you were adopted
through. Was it all kids from Korea?
Only, or are you think? No, I think I think it was
Pretty big in China as well. Okay, yeah.
The most mostly Asian adoptions. Yeah, Asia.
Adoptions holds yeah, it's huge. And then we're all those
children Coming to America or all over the world, you know,
for that agency? Yeah, I'm pretty sure who is
primarily to the United States. There's a big, like, kind of
movement in like the 90s were A lot of children or being adopted
from Asia. And whole was one of the
organizations that I was a lot of those adoptions.
Yeah. And do, you know, why, why your
adoptive parents wanted to adopt?
Yeah. Sort of my dad's side of the
family, had a lot of trouble producing healthy sperm
basically, okay. So there was trouble on that
end. So, Going to take a lot of like
medical procedures to enhance that and my parents didn't want
that. And I think yeah, I got lucky
with my parents because they really they're very kind and
understanding of like hardship. I guess in a sense and really
want to make a better life for their friends and family.
And so when they were thinking about having kids, I think
adoption, Option was always kind of on the table even despite the
medical complications. So yeah.
Yeah. I even so they never, they never
had children of their own then, nope.
Yeah, I have one other brother and he's also adopted from
Korea. So okay but you two aren't
related. I mean, biologically know.
Yeah, why did they decide to go through and adopt from Korea?
Because they're not Korean right?
No. Okay, yeah, that's a great
question. Yeah, I really don't have
chances for that. Yeah.
And so you just have one other brother.
They didn't adopt anybody else and they have no biological
kids. Yeah, no.
So this might kind of sound like a dumb question, but since you
don't look like any of your family members because our
Caucasian your parents right after parents when you grew up,
did you? That you who are adopted?
Yeah, my parents were very open about having the embraced by
adoption. Now, they're open about it.
I embraced it to an extent and then it took a while for me, to
actually come to like full acceptance of it, I think.
Yeah. So they were always open about
me being adopted, we would celebrate something called a
coming home today. Hmm.
So it was like, the day I came to America and And my mom would
bring Korean food into the elementary school or whatever
and it's cool. Yeah, just celebrate that day.
So yeah, so you kind of touched a little bit on struggling with
coming to terms with being adopted.
So talk about that a little bit. Yeah, I think it really like
boiled down to when I started Middle School, just Adolescence
in generals is hard and trying to figure out you know, your
identity. And what Our and I was pretty
harshly. Picked on for being Asian, a, my
school, which was predominantly white.
And so, it confused me more so than anything because I would go
home and look at my parents and they were white like, I have,
you know, 20 cousins, they're all white, you know, my whole,
I'm just in a white family. Yeah.
And so being bullied for being Asian really kind of made me
start to Isn't my necessity. Mmm and I, you know, develops
very self-deprecating behaviors. And I didn't like the fact that
I was Korean that was really hard to navigate.
So yeah. Yeah, I think it really just
kind of like pushed me away from a part of myself that was
inherent. Hmm.
And that this Association, you know like anyone right?
The this cessation from yourself.
Causes a lot of problems just in general about, finding out who
you are and what your values are and what you care about, what
your morals are. And so, it took me a really long
time to really understand that I'm not just Korean or like, I'm
not just an adopted kid. Like I'm me.
Yes, I really have that deep sense of myself because I got
pushed out from who I was kind of out of young.
Young age. So yeah, and I'll lose your
authenticity and start questioning who you think you
are or who you should be against who you really are, you know.
So how was your life think growing up in an all-white
family? I mean, was it?
Where did you feel different? Did you feel like you fit in
when I was little? It was, it was, it was great.
That's okay. Yeah, I always say it was good
because I always accepted. it was my, it was my grandmother
who She made everyone feel like they are the most special person
in the world. you know, it was I think when I was going through
that hard time, you know, she was choose.
I can always trust that she was always gonna be there for me.
And you know, I had my problems with my parents because child
Parenthood so your parents but when I would see my my
grandmother, you know, just just full Embrace of love and
kindness and compassion, no matter what it was, it was
unconditional. And so, You know, I always
trusted her no matter what the other people in my family, you
know, it wasn't as like I never felt a stable of a relationship
with people in my family because because of the loss of myself,
and I didn't trust anybody, and but she was always there.
So, so important. So you did talk a little bit
about being able to sell it. Liberate your culture within
your adopted family, besides the day that they got you and write
Korean food. Did you guys did they they
embrace the culture at all? Yes.
Sort of culture. So deep right.
I mean food was a big part of the culture.
Yes. And then my uncle actually
married a Korean woman. And so he kind of had that tie.
And so we go to her parents and her parents church.
Usually and you know is all in Korean so we didn't really know.
It was cool just to be around people who kind of look like me
so right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So your sibling was also adopted.
How did you guys get along growing up?
Hmm, not great. Yeah, my end.
Yeah, you were older. I'm the younger sibling.
You're the younger sister? Yeah, okay.
And you know, I think part of that difficulty of resenting, my
ethnicity. My brother was the, you know,
archetype or person that I saw in myself that I hated mmm.
And I wanted to destroy that part of myself, you know, so to
speak. And so, whenever I would be
upset or, you know, I get picked on that day and I would come
home and I just, I'd be so angry and I take it out on him.
Hmm. And so it was a tough.
I mean, it was a tough relationship just because for
him, On my part because I just saw him and something that I
didn't like him myself. Yeah, I let him know that.
So yeah, that was too bad. I you know, I have a lot of
regret, I have a lot of regrets for that.
So how do you guys get along now?
We don't interact really too much.
He lives in Canada with his wife and You know, if he actually
just got married last year, I remember going up to him during
his wedding. I'm just kind of breaking down
crying saying, you know. Yeah.
I'm just sorry. Yeah.
So little by little, you know, I'll pick away at mending.
Yeah. Well my relationship.
But yeah. Tough.
Yeah. So we talked a little bit about
how you kind of, you know, lost yourself and your authenticity
and Junior High. And you're still a young guy,
but do you feel like you've kind of embraced who you are?
Or are you still trying to figure that out?
Yeah, no, I've been braced it and I really feel, you know,
there's plenty of things that I need to work on and become more
self-aware about and, you know, it's not over but I think
fundamentally I know who I am and not just the good parts, but
like the darker parts. And it's taken me a really long
time, but I've slowly been able to kind of accept those parts
about myself and integrate them in ways that I can use to kind
of move through life. You know, life isn't easy.
So you know, sometimes anger is necessary and a lot of anger
when I was kid, and, but it would come out like an explosion
when I was younger. And I've worked really, really
hard about learning to become aware of it learning to use it
in ways that are that are useful and not destructive.
So yeah. So I think you had mentioned in
an e-mailed to me that. You said it confused you because
your parents were Caucasian. What were you meeting by that?
What were you? What were you thinking?
Like the kids who were picking on me?
I mean, it was almost like not humorous per se, but it was
confusing because, you know, culturally I'm just an American
white kid. Yeah.
Now, Is how I grew up. You know I was fortunate to come
into a very stable family and now I had a good childhood Now
Sports and summer reading programs and friends and, you
know, very very, very typical American Childhood and so then
when I would get bullied for, you know, being Asian, I had to
wrap my whole head around it because I didn't identify as
that and yet that's how I was being perceived.
Left, right? And so it gave me a very deep
understanding about the psychology of perception in
general, especially from a child's point of view or
prepubescent, whatever Adolescent and so perception is
very important and so yeah that was that was the confusion.
Yeah. So the anger that you carried
because of the bullying and that kind of thing.
It sounds like it was more from The Bullying than Anger from
being adopted or was it kind of both?
Kind of intertwined. Yeah, I think the anger came
mostly from the bullying because it was unwarranted but if I were
to actually think about like my adoption and I can't really
think about it when I was kid because I can probably
understand it all that. Well, but I feel just so
grateful. I mean, that's, it's almost
Indescribable, right? I mean I was born and then put
into a system that I could have been adopted by anybody.
Yeah. And I'm gonna Pat my parents on
the back here, but I have probably like the most modest
and humble, and hard-working parents that I could ask for.
And it really, it probably saved my life.
Mmm. So that's kind of funny how, you
know, as adoptees were told that we're lucky.
A lot of the time and it is kind of like a lottery.
A lot of adoptees are told, you know that we chose you, but
actually, you were just the next one up for adoption like, you
weren't chosen most aren't? I mean, I have heard of people
that have were there with, you know, five other babies and
then, Were chosen out of those that group of babies but most of
the time it's basically winning the lottery.
You know, when you get that grade adoptive family like that
because I mean there's so many adoptees that don't have that
story. I'm one of those two that won a
lottery. So nice.
Yeah, yeah but I mean it could have been it like, is it could
have been, anybody could have been literally anybody.
So you sounds like you get along with your, you know, adoptive
parents. Yeah, that's great.
Have you ever searched for your or can you?
I don't know what. Heidi would you even search in
Korea for biological relatives? Yeah, I beat difficult again.
I think it comes down to the cultural element of that having
a baby out of wedlock is is dishonorable and so I could go
through the organization, but I think it's up to the birth
parents to choose whether or not they would want to meet up.
Personally, I I had no desire to meet my birth parents.
Because yeah, I just think it wouldn't.
Like, I don't feel any resentment.
Well, that's maybe not true. Actually Yeah.
Interesting right now, right? Yeah.
I don't think he would give me kind of the like, I don't know.
I actually haven't thought about that question actually in a
while, so I don't know where I went.
Do they do DNA over there like ancestry probably?
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah.
So do you think you've suffered any Trauma from your a
relinquishment? You like have any residual
Trauma from Probably, you know, I can't highlight exactly what
it is. But the question that preceded,
this one kind of invoke this thought of, well, I have
Tendencies with attachment that coincide with a traumatic
experience. And so, you know, I had a pretty
good childhood in the United States.
But that's not to say that it wasn't hard first five months.
Yeah. And especially I think the
disconnection from my birth mother.
You know. I think babies need that
chemical bonding or yeah or other.
I didn't get it. So right, so you're in your 20s.
Yeah, yeah, I'm 26. Yeah.
You know, most people don't that
doesn't really start hitting home most of the time until like
your 40s and 50s. It seems like from what I've
seen out in the adoptee community It's kind of like
almost like a midlife crisis, really, but it's about your
adoption and just trying to come to terms with all that that
entails including looking back on your life and being like like
you were saying attachment disorders or, you know, problems
with attaching and oh, that's probably why I do that.
I do that thing. I do you know that I don't
really like her. That's not really serving me you
know? But that doesn't usually come a
long till later it seems, but I think the community is kind of
coming. Going out now and talking more
about what really happens with adoptions.
And so I think the younger Generations are getting there a
little sooner now. So I mean it's a good thing
because I wish I had kind of explored it when I was younger
and kind of gotten through a lot of what I've had to deal with.
But I haven't had to deal with a lot because of my adoption being
so positive. Then that I see in the
community. So many people hurting, I'm just
like, oh my gosh, it just breaks my heart because I can't imagine
some of the things that they've Through it's hard enough.
Just being adopted like you were saying and being relinquished
and taken from your birth mother and coming to terms with all
that. But then when you have a bad
adoptive experience in the family that just it's horrible.
So I'm so glad to hear it. The positive adoption story
today, so you told me your experience of with adoption is
taught you many things about life.
What is adoption taught, you? I think the most profound thing
that I've learned is that family can be anyone.
You know, like it's not a permanent off of blood per se
and so you know, the love that my parents showed me and the
love that my my grandmother and all my family and I have been
very very supportive and encouraging and you know they
want the best for me, they care for me.
So it really drove me to to see the world in that kind of funds
and to understand that People struggle.
I mean, everyone struggles. Right life isn't easy and you
need people to beat it for real. Yeah.
Through all stages. And so, you know, drove me to
I'm in school right now to become a clinical psychologist.
Hmm, mental health therapist and so I want to be that person who
somebody can turn to when they're having a tough time,
because I was given that From these random people who adopted
me and I'm right. Oh yeah it's just taught me.
Family can be anyone and that you know, showing somebody love
and showing love can really turn a bad situation into something
beautiful, mmm. And and I was given that
opportunity and I want to pay it forward as much as I can't.
Yeah. And I mean, adoptee therapist, -
are being highly sought out by adoptees.
So yeah, that's exciting that you're going to be doing that.
You know, I kind of touched on. There's a lot of hurting
adoptees out there. What advice would you have?
For those that are struggling? I mean, you you kind of went
through the bullying and then losing your authenticity and
then kind of a learning to embrace it again.
What made you turn around and want to embrace who you were?
There's something that happened where you just sick of not being
who you were. Did you realize you were not
being who you were? Like what happened?
Because you're pretty young to be like, you know, realizing all
that. So, yeah, just wondering like,
how did you do that? I mean, the first thing that
kind of comes to mind, is that I was sick of the person who I was
becoming. Mmm.
So through all that turmoil and all that adversity, I started to
become very Nihilistic and cynical and narcissistic, I
think as well. But it's all about me.
Me me, why me? And and sorry.
Blame people, it's your fault. This is why I am who I am or
this is, you know, this situation that made me who I
was. And I don't remember exactly
when it was. But I really started to realize
that I didn't, like, who I was becoming Being you know, I was,
I was hurting people around me, I was hurting loved ones, and I
was hurting myself, and it was only until I realized that it
was my responsibility to take care of my life that I really
started getting into the work of self-improvement.
So speaker self, self, healing, and self grow.
I would say the, What specifically Did you do to start
the healing and growth? I started to, I think it started
with humility was the main thing I got in to some trouble.
And I actually ended up spending a night in jail, that'll wake
you up. And I just remember, I phone
call with my dad who's a criminal defense attorney.
Hmm. And she wasn't all that proud of
me up. And so, you know, I had I was in
handcuffs and And feet, cuffs for the whole night.
And I was just was thinking caps.
L, like, how did I get here, right?
And I was like, I thought about it.
I was like, well, I got myself here and that's when I realized.
Like, I'm the only one who can get myself out also.
So that is symbolic for My own self imprisonment and for
ultimate Liberation or Transcendence or whatever you
want to call it of, you know, the corrupted self.
I had to take responsibility for my actions that's when I started
doing and so. What did you do after that to
start that Journey? Okay, so this is a good segue.
Yes, it was Buddhism. Actually, the structure of
Buddhism that really Help me. And you know buddhism's it's not
it's not a religion per se, it's more like a way of life is how I
like to describe it and it talks about that life is hard, life is
suffering. That's the first Noble Truth of
Buddhism. It's like life is really really
difficult and I'm like okay I agree with that.
Tell me it's like I said I'm onboard and but second Noble
Truth is why life is suffering. Third, Noble Truth is that
there's a way out in the fourth Noble Truth is that this is the
way and one of the principles in the fourth Noble Truth Is Right
understanding and it basically, this is the humiliating part is
you have to become aware of the reality of the situation.
You can no longer delude yourself into thinking that the
world careened around you to torture you for you know,
however I date whatever your whole life.
Life. But that you know the things
that you did had a cause and effect.
Yeah. And the effect can be positive
or the effect can be negative and yeah.
Anyways, interesting. Yeah.
And then you are interested in becoming a death Doula and I've
just been hearing about this recently.
Sounds like an up-and-coming thing.
Do you want to explain that a little bit?
What is the death doula? Yeah, death Doula is basically.
I would say it's like a emotional mental health,
counselor for somebody who's in the dying process.
Death is one of those things that it is, the thing that is,
you know, the ultimate unknown, right?
Yeah. And when people are approaching
that sage in their life, The death Doula is there to empower
and support the person through their process.
The things like, what do you want to do after your dad?
Do you want a burial? You made a deal or something.
A little bit more difficult would be having a safe space to
talk about the emotions that are bubbling up or that person in
that time. I'm and they're very, very
unique to the problems. Yeah, I had a friend.
Stay with me. Who was terminal.
I didn't know she was terminal, but it ended up being that way.
And my biggest regret in that was when she would start to want
to talk about that kind of stuff.
I would just be like, nope, we're not going there.
We're not talking about that because that's not going to
happen, you know? And I would just cut her off
like, nope, we're not talking about that.
And that's my biggest regret that I didn't give her that
space. To talk about it.
Yeah. To this day I'm just still like
what I do that. I did it for me it was a selfish
reason. I didn't I didn't want to talk
about it. I didn't want to hear it, you
know. But I yeah, to this day, I still
feel horrible about that. So how do you learn to be a
death? Doula is there like a class or
is it through your psychology classes?
Is this like something new but there are teaching or do you
just? I don't know.
What do you happen to you? Become a dad?
Abdullah. Yeah, so the like kind of the I
guess. Like professional way.
You become a death Doula is it? There's like several different
certification courses. Okay.
Then you can take each one, kind of bearing a little from the
other. Do you have to have a psychology
background to know do that? Now, that's kind of the other
one of the prerequisites. Basically is a predisposition,
like, naturally to be able to talk about death.
Yeah. And so I've had a lot of death
in my life in general and I've always had an inclination to not
look at it as something that I lost per se, but more as part of
life, And I was always curious about it.
So and that was when I was really young really, really
young. So I've always been fascinated
by death and which has kind of allowed me to hold those spaces
for people to talk about it. Because I'm interested in it as
opposed to I think, you know, maybe the more normal thing
would be to be scared of it and I don't know.
Yeah, not that much fear about it, but I don't.
So yeah, yeah. So the other thing that you do
is you do Dharma talks in your area and I don't think a lot of
people even know what Dharma is, so you want to talk about that a
little bit? Yeah, Dharma.
And the kind of like the sense that I'm talking about it is
just the teachings of the Buddha.
So there's three jewels of Buddhism the Buddha, which is
the goal, and that just means the enlightened one, the
awakened one. So it's self-awareness, the
Sangha, which is the community. So that's who helps you along
the way. And then the Dharma, which is
the teachings, and that's how you get there.
Mmm. And so the dharmically Us is
Buddhist principles in the lens of daily life.
What I teach? Yeah.
Okay cool. I love talking about that stuff.
Yeah. Do you follow Buddhism of it all
you know, I kind of take a little bit from here and there
but mostly yeah I don't know a lot about the intricacies of it
like you do but the philosophy of it I think is what I embrace.
About it. And like I said, I just, you
know, whatever feels good to me and that changes, you know, as I
get older too is that maybe? I don't believe that anymore,
but I used to believe 20 years ago, you know, I think as you
grow and change that kind of changes as well.
So, is there any advice that you would have for adoptees that are
struggling? It's kind of cliche, but I think
trust your gut as something that I would tell people just in
general, you know, that means you have to listen to your gut.
It's easy. To get caught up in like
everybody else's voice. Hmm, But if you can quiet the
mind and find your intuition. Listen to that.
Yeah. Listen to that there.
Anything else you'd want to share about anything that we
didn't cover like we covered it? Yeah, no, I think.
Yeah, this is fantastic. I really enjoyed.
Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for coming on today
and sharing your story, we're educating the world and one
story at a time. You know, whether it's a good
adoption story or about adoption stories.
They're all educating the world about what really happens with
adoption. So thanks for sharing today.
Thank you for having me. This was such a sweet interview
for me. I have not interviewed someone
so young and yet wanting to work on himself and be a better
person at the age of 26. So many adoptees don't even
realize that their adoption is affecting their entire lives.
Until we are in our 40s and 50s. But I'm telling you because we
as These are coming out and telling our stories, we're
getting the word out about adoption and how it affects us.
It's going to help these, younger Generations realize it
quicker than we did. And this is the whole reason I
do. This podcast is to educate the
world, but this young man at such an early age, is wanting to
be the best version of himself the most authentic version of
himself. And he wants to work on it at
such a young age. It's so inspiring.
And during the interview as I was asking Frankie questions.
I could just feel him thinking about what I asked and just
trying to dig deeper and I'm sure as the week's pass after we
did our interview that he will continue to process and learn
from what was asked of him during this interview, it can be
such a heavy topic. And I don't usually give my
guests the questions ahead of time unless they ask because I
like the interview to be spontaneous.
I don't even do a pre-interview with anyone sometimes.
I don't even know what my guest is going to look like.
It's new and fresh and just I love the spontaneity of kind of
just doing it on the fly like that.
I think it's more real, it's more authentic.
And that way, there's no scripted answers, it is just on
the Fly truthful, whatever pops into your emotions in mind in
that moment to answer that question.
So for me it just feels like it gives a more true and authentic
Flair to the interview. And I've had many guests email
me afterwards saying, you know that question you asked me?
I thought about it later? And this came to me and that
came to me and it really got me thinking Processing.
So that's why I do it in the style that I do and it is my
hope that some of the questions I'm asking my guests, get you to
think and process about your own situation and I hope it helps.
I know that hearing adoptees stories can be so validating,
but I hope that you are asking some of these questions of
yourself that I am asking of my guests.
So that That you can get something out of it as well.
And speaking of answering the interview questions that I'm
asking of my guests, have you thought about coming on the
podcast and telling your story? Trust me when I say there is
someone out there waiting to hear your specific story and
your story will help so many others out there you have no
idea. The impact that You can have on
fellow adoptees and those in the constellation if you would like
to get a hold of me, you can email me, at mind your own Karma
at gmail.com. If you want to know more about
me and the podcast, you can go to my website, mind your own
Karma.com. If you have been enjoying mind
your own karma for a while, now please subscribe to the podcast.
It really helps the algorithms and it helps get the word out
about adoption. As always, take what you need
and leave what you don't and always remember to mind your own
Karma. I'll see you next time.
As always, take what you need and leave what you don't and
always remember to mind your own Karma.
I'll see you next time.