1 00:00:09,580 --> 00:00:12,340 Welcome to Mind Your Own Karma, The Adoption Chronicles. 2 00:00:12,340 --> 00:00:15,220 I'm your host, Melissa Brunetti. In this second season of Mind 3 00:00:15,220 --> 00:00:17,780 Your Own Karma, we're tackling the subject of adoption. 4 00:00:18,060 --> 00:00:21,580 Yes, adoption, most of the time is a wonderful experience. 5 00:00:21,740 --> 00:00:24,580 You have the generous birth parents, the excited adoptive 6 00:00:24,580 --> 00:00:26,700 parents, and this lucky little baby. 7 00:00:26,860 --> 00:00:28,740 Everyone lives happily ever after, right? 8 00:00:28,940 --> 00:00:31,740 But what I want you to know is there's so much more to these 9 00:00:31,740 --> 00:00:34,150 stories. I'm an adoptee myself, and I 10 00:00:34,150 --> 00:00:37,510 want to bring all sides of the adoption journey to you in hopes 11 00:00:37,510 --> 00:00:40,630 to educate you and to bring understanding to this subject. 12 00:00:40,870 --> 00:00:43,990 We're about to get real and raw here, so let's dive right in. 13 00:00:50,500 --> 00:00:53,860 Hey Karma crew, As you know, we're talking about adoption 14 00:00:53,860 --> 00:00:57,380 this season on Mind Your Own Karma the Adoption Chronicles. 15 00:00:57,700 --> 00:01:00,460 And last couple weeks I've been telling you a little bit about 16 00:01:00,460 --> 00:01:03,180 my story. I hope you were able to go on my 17 00:01:03,180 --> 00:01:07,540 Instagram and Facebook pages and take a look at the pictures of 18 00:01:07,540 --> 00:01:11,680 my biological parents and me. I always thought I looked 19 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,320 exactly like my birth mother. But when I put those pictures 20 00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:18,440 together and saw everything side by side, I was like, Oh my gosh, 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,440 I look a lot like my dad at that same age. 22 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,240 So very interesting to see that because there's always been kind 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,200 of a question about that. You know, there's no DNA test 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,640 back then and he's passed now, although I do know my sisters, 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:34,560 but neither one of them have done DNA tests. 26 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:40,040 So I really haven't been able to connect any DNA to his side. 27 00:01:40,580 --> 00:01:44,220 And there was always a question, you know, in his mind or at 28 00:01:44,220 --> 00:01:48,660 least he said so back then at the time that he wasn't sure if, 29 00:01:48,900 --> 00:01:53,220 you know, he was my father and that's why he didn't marry, 30 00:01:53,220 --> 00:01:56,700 ended marrying my biological mother and the whole deal that 31 00:01:56,700 --> 00:01:58,860 you learned last week that happened in the story. 32 00:01:58,860 --> 00:02:03,300 So just kind of interesting to make that realization that, oh, 33 00:02:03,380 --> 00:02:05,580 I do kind of look like him. That's very interesting. 34 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:08,580 Never saw that before. So if you haven't seen it, go 35 00:02:08,580 --> 00:02:11,710 back and check that out. I might post a couple of other 36 00:02:11,710 --> 00:02:15,470 family, biological, family photos as well. 37 00:02:15,470 --> 00:02:20,030 I have some of like my grandmother and things like 38 00:02:20,030 --> 00:02:22,790 that. So anyway, go check those out 39 00:02:23,510 --> 00:02:27,030 this week on the podcast. We are going to dig into the 40 00:02:27,030 --> 00:02:32,270 book The Primal Wound. If you are an adoptee or a birth 41 00:02:32,270 --> 00:02:37,630 mother or a adoptive parent. This book is pretty heavy. 42 00:02:37,910 --> 00:02:40,670 This is the one that I previously told you that my 43 00:02:40,670 --> 00:02:44,310 birth mother had given me when soon after she met me and I read 44 00:02:44,310 --> 00:02:46,550 it and I threw it in the trash because I was. 45 00:02:46,550 --> 00:02:52,950 So it's kind of a depressing book in a way, and I don't think 46 00:02:52,950 --> 00:02:55,910 at age. I think I was 2324 when I read 47 00:02:55,910 --> 00:02:58,990 it, I was really ready to absorb it. 48 00:02:59,030 --> 00:03:02,870 You really have to be ready, and I don't think at that age you're 49 00:03:03,470 --> 00:03:07,230 really ready to hear. Hear what Nancy Verrier has to 50 00:03:07,230 --> 00:03:12,110 say about adoptees and how the whole process can affect you and 51 00:03:12,110 --> 00:03:13,270 your entire life. Really. 52 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:17,750 Now I can look at it and be objective because I really, I'm 53 00:03:17,790 --> 00:03:19,990 always, you know, a work in progress and I want to work on 54 00:03:19,990 --> 00:03:22,630 me. And so, you know, I'm able to 55 00:03:22,630 --> 00:03:27,350 look at this and take what I need and leave what I don't, so 56 00:03:27,350 --> 00:03:29,390 I can look at it more objectively now. 57 00:03:29,390 --> 00:03:32,970 And now it's pretty interesting. But you like I said, you really, 58 00:03:32,970 --> 00:03:36,090 if you decide to read it, you really have to be ready to hear 59 00:03:36,090 --> 00:03:41,370 some hard things and look at yourself in the mirror and you 60 00:03:41,370 --> 00:03:45,650 know, maybe own some things or or correlate like oh you know, 61 00:03:45,650 --> 00:03:50,010 I've always had a problem connecting with people on a on a 62 00:03:50,010 --> 00:03:52,730 deeper level. And you know, that could be why 63 00:03:52,730 --> 00:03:56,970 just kind of, you know, look at it and if the shoe fits, wear it 64 00:03:56,970 --> 00:03:59,880 kind of thing. So the first thing to realize 65 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,080 when you read this book or to understand is this was written 66 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,360 in 1993 and I don't think it's been revised. 67 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:13,160 So they talk about the adoptee as a him throughout the book. 68 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,960 That's one thing to note when you're reading the book. 69 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,320 It is kind of difficult to navigate when you're reading it 70 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,520 like that. Everything's him. 71 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:29,650 So I even though this book was written in 1993, the psychology 72 00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:34,650 and the correlations that she makes still make sense. 73 00:04:35,610 --> 00:04:38,050 They're still true today and I think they're always going to be 74 00:04:38,050 --> 00:04:40,210 true. And I'm sure there's been a lot 75 00:04:40,210 --> 00:04:45,010 more work since this book came out that just the psychology of 76 00:04:45,130 --> 00:04:49,250 adoption. But the basically the definition 77 00:04:49,250 --> 00:04:54,150 that she puts in the book and the the preface, she says, What 78 00:04:54,150 --> 00:04:57,310 I discovered is what I call the primal wound. 79 00:04:57,910 --> 00:05:01,510 A wound which is physical, emotional, psychological and 80 00:05:01,510 --> 00:05:04,510 spiritual. A wound which causes pain so 81 00:05:04,510 --> 00:05:08,190 profound as to have been described as cellular by those 82 00:05:08,190 --> 00:05:11,470 adoptees who allowed themselves to go that deeply into their 83 00:05:11,470 --> 00:05:14,430 pain. I began to understand this wound 84 00:05:14,470 --> 00:05:17,910 as having been caused by the separation of the child from his 85 00:05:17,910 --> 00:05:21,200 biological mother, the connection to whom seems 86 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,760 mystical, mysterious, spiritual, and everlasting. 87 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,440 She goes on to say. I anticipate a great deal of 88 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,680 resistance to the ideas set forth in this book. 89 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,240 The only people who can really judge this work, however, are 90 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,720 those about whom it is written. The adoptees themselves. 91 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,000 Only they, as they note their responses to what is written 92 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,960 here, will really know in their deepest cell the validity of 93 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,350 this work, the existence or non existence of the primal wound, 94 00:05:52,870 --> 00:05:55,510 which is kind of what I was saying about you know, take what 95 00:05:55,510 --> 00:05:58,350 you need and leave what you don't own, what you, you know, 96 00:05:58,350 --> 00:06:01,830 think you need to own. Nancy Barrier, the author of the 97 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:06,350 book, she is an adoptive parent. And when she adopted her 98 00:06:06,350 --> 00:06:09,990 daughter, and I think her daughter was, you know, newborn, 99 00:06:09,990 --> 00:06:12,470 I don't think her daughter ever went to foster care like I did 100 00:06:13,470 --> 00:06:16,510 in between, you know, the relinquishment. 101 00:06:16,510 --> 00:06:22,750 But she noticed right away that her daughter was in pain and she 102 00:06:22,750 --> 00:06:26,790 couldn't figure out why. Another part in the book where 103 00:06:26,790 --> 00:06:32,870 she talks about kind of just being naive about it, that, you 104 00:06:32,870 --> 00:06:35,430 know, we're going to give her a loving home, we're going to give 105 00:06:35,430 --> 00:06:37,670 her all the love that she needs, and everything's going to be 106 00:06:37,670 --> 00:06:40,430 fine. And it's just, it's just not 107 00:06:40,430 --> 00:06:43,190 that easy. It I wish it was, but it's not, 108 00:06:44,340 --> 00:06:47,260 She also says. Some of the lessons I have had 109 00:06:47,260 --> 00:06:50,740 to learn on the way have been very painful for me. 110 00:06:50,740 --> 00:06:54,020 I have had to face the fact that I can never take the place of 111 00:06:54,020 --> 00:06:57,260 her birth mother. And she says it's not that she 112 00:06:57,460 --> 00:07:01,300 didn't bond with her daughter, but it was through a lot of, you 113 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:07,020 know, crying and sacrifice and work that that bonding had to 114 00:07:07,020 --> 00:07:11,420 happen and some understanding of why her daughter was acting out 115 00:07:11,420 --> 00:07:17,640 the way she was and the defense mechanisms that she was acting 116 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,520 out with because of the primal wound. 117 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,760 You know, those people that I'm going to hurt you before you 118 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,560 hurt me kind of thing. I'm going to reject you before 119 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,320 you reject me. And as and for an adoptee, if 120 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:39,440 you think about it, for us, a mother that gives her child a 121 00:07:39,940 --> 00:07:44,340 for adoption, no matter what the circumstances are, that's still 122 00:07:44,340 --> 00:07:48,540 a rejection because you're like, how can a mother give her child 123 00:07:48,540 --> 00:07:50,620 away no matter what the circumstance? 124 00:07:50,620 --> 00:07:54,780 You still gave that child up. How can you do that? 125 00:07:54,980 --> 00:08:02,380 Like that is the most unbelievable abandonment that a 126 00:08:02,380 --> 00:08:06,500 mother could do that no matter what the circumstance. 127 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:11,020 It could be the most noble of circumstances, and it just 128 00:08:11,540 --> 00:08:16,220 doesn't matter to the adoptee. You still gave me up, you know, 129 00:08:16,220 --> 00:08:19,180 You gave me up. And maybe you kept other 130 00:08:19,180 --> 00:08:22,060 children after me. So where does that leave you? 131 00:08:22,140 --> 00:08:25,460 I wasn't good enough. You didn't want to try hard 132 00:08:25,460 --> 00:08:28,940 enough to keep me. Even if you've had the greatest 133 00:08:28,980 --> 00:08:34,100 life as an adoptee, which I did, I have the greatest family. 134 00:08:34,100 --> 00:08:35,700 I would never, ever, ever give it up. 135 00:08:36,860 --> 00:08:44,890 But you were still rejected by your mother no matter what, and 136 00:08:44,890 --> 00:08:49,730 that rejection reverberates. It's like dropping a Pebble in a 137 00:08:49,730 --> 00:08:52,970 pond. And it just ripple. 138 00:08:52,970 --> 00:08:58,330 The ripple effect just goes out from there and affects all your 139 00:08:58,330 --> 00:09:02,370 relationships that really can. And that's another thing that, 140 00:09:02,410 --> 00:09:07,200 you know, I think when you know I've been to therapy, I think 141 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,760 pretty much everybody's been to therapy at some time or another. 142 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,200 I was never asked if I was adopted. 143 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,760 I was never asked that. I don't, I don't think they 144 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,160 probably even teach that. That could be a factor in 145 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,440 whatever is going on. You know, why you're why you're 146 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,400 in counseling that that could be a root cause. 147 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,000 I was never asked. I don't think physicians, you 148 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,560 know, your doctor, they don't ask. 149 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,390 They don't. And they just, it just doesn't. 150 00:09:38,590 --> 00:09:42,990 It doesn't come to mind for them that it could be a factor in any 151 00:09:43,030 --> 00:09:44,910 mental, physical, emotional health. 152 00:09:46,590 --> 00:09:49,710 And it really needs to be. It's a major question to ask. 153 00:09:49,710 --> 00:09:52,150 It needs to be start. It needs to start being asked. 154 00:09:53,110 --> 00:09:56,590 So I'm going to read a little bit from Part 1. 155 00:09:56,590 --> 00:09:58,910 The Wound is the name of the chapter. 156 00:09:59,730 --> 00:10:02,130 It says. Too often in our approach to the 157 00:10:02,130 --> 00:10:06,290 newborn, we deal with him as if he is exactly that brand new. 158 00:10:06,770 --> 00:10:09,090 We neglect the fact that the neonate is really the 159 00:10:09,090 --> 00:10:12,410 culmination of an amazing experience that has lasted 40 160 00:10:12,410 --> 00:10:15,050 weeks. By looking at the neonate as if 161 00:10:15,050 --> 00:10:18,410 he had sprung full blown from the brain of Zeus, we're missing 162 00:10:18,410 --> 00:10:21,850 the opportunities that the newborn's history as a fetus can 163 00:10:21,850 --> 00:10:26,000 provide. And she talks a little bit more 164 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,360 about the definition of the primal wound. 165 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,560 It says that history to which Breselton refers includes the 166 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:34,960 bonding and utero of the mother and child. 167 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,360 Many doctors and psychologists now understand that bonding 168 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,760 doesn't begin at birth, but is a continuum of psychological, 169 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,520 physiological and spiritual events that begin in utero and 170 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,760 continue throughout the postnatal bonding period. 171 00:10:49,450 --> 00:10:53,130 When this natural evolution is interrupted by a post Natal 172 00:10:53,130 --> 00:10:56,970 separation from the biological mother, the result experience of 173 00:10:56,970 --> 00:11:01,610 abandonment and loss is an indelibly imprinted upon the 174 00:11:01,650 --> 00:11:05,570 unconscious minds of these children, causing that which I 175 00:11:05,570 --> 00:11:09,330 call the primal wound. And it's just so profound 176 00:11:09,370 --> 00:11:13,210 because it's so true. Like we just think the baby pops 177 00:11:13,210 --> 00:11:16,290 out and they're just brand new and they, they haven't had a 178 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:20,260 brain to think before, you know, in utero. 179 00:11:20,260 --> 00:11:21,780 They weren't thinking, they weren't. 180 00:11:21,940 --> 00:11:24,460 And just when they come out is when they start thinking and you 181 00:11:24,460 --> 00:11:28,420 know, having an an experience. But no, they've already had an 182 00:11:28,420 --> 00:11:31,780 emotional and physical experience in the womb. 183 00:11:32,220 --> 00:11:36,140 They've already connected to that birth mother that carried 184 00:11:36,140 --> 00:11:39,340 them for nine months. And how could we think any 185 00:11:39,340 --> 00:11:42,780 different? I mean we see the bond that you 186 00:11:42,780 --> 00:11:47,920 know, mothers can feel and see the bond with their children and 187 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:54,520 that has to that has to have an A lasting effect being taken 188 00:11:54,520 --> 00:12:00,080 from that, no matter how early because they've already been, 189 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,360 they've already been connected all this time. 190 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,640 It doesn't just begin when you're born, but because there's 191 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:12,760 really no, no way to prove scientifically what that looks 192 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,360 like it. It's something that we just 193 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,290 don't think about. So not only do you have, you 194 00:12:19,290 --> 00:12:23,250 know, what happened psychologically to the baby, but 195 00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:27,370 then a lot of times the adoptive parents have gone through their 196 00:12:27,410 --> 00:12:30,130 own things. How did they get to the point 197 00:12:30,130 --> 00:12:33,090 where they wanted to adopt? You know, a lot of times it's 198 00:12:33,090 --> 00:12:36,130 infertility issues, things like that. 199 00:12:36,170 --> 00:12:42,250 And so they're bringing those emotional issues along with them 200 00:12:42,250 --> 00:12:46,050 to their parenting of this child that's not biologically theirs. 201 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:51,360 And how does that play into the whole relationship as well? 202 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,240 That's the other thing. I think there needs to be a lot 203 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:01,040 of counseling before and after. I mean, the birth mother alone, 204 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:08,680 How much counseling does that woman need to be able to deal 205 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:12,840 with the whole situation of carrying this baby, giving it up 206 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,560 and then wondering if you did the right thing throughout their 207 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:18,880 entire life? You know, you don't know. 208 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,520 You just hope and pray that they got a good family and it had a 209 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,680 good life. But I there's not. 210 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:29,760 There's none of that. That is not a requirement for 211 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,160 adopting. And maybe some agencies, private 212 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,120 agencies maybe now are are realizing this now. 213 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,360 But back in 1968, when I was born, there was nothing, you 214 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,520 know, nothing for my birth mother, and I know she struggled 215 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,960 with it. And then my adoptive parents, 216 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,240 nobody told them. You know, your baby may have 217 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,640 trouble bonding and, you know, these things may come up. 218 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,400 And if you notice this, that and the other no, they were just 219 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,920 handed a baby and like, here you go. 220 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:01,720 Take her home. Good luck. 221 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:06,480 You know, if you don't like her or she's effective in any way, 222 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,600 bring your receipt back and you can, you know, we'll, we'll 223 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:14,010 exchange her for another baby. It's just like so ridiculous. 224 00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:18,650 I just don't understand how it's just turned into this huge 225 00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:23,770 fantasy story where it's just all roses and happiness and ohh, 226 00:14:23,810 --> 00:14:26,770 it's so beautiful that this mother decided that she just 227 00:14:26,770 --> 00:14:30,330 couldn't care for her baby and put a gift and blah blah blah. 228 00:14:30,330 --> 00:14:33,530 And you know, everybody lives happily ever after and it's just 229 00:14:33,570 --> 00:14:37,170 it's just not that way. And I think it's time that we 230 00:14:37,170 --> 00:14:44,140 look at these hard things. Nobody wants to hear the part of 231 00:14:44,140 --> 00:14:50,020 the story where this baby had to cope and had, you know, the baby 232 00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:52,780 didn't have any counseling, the baby didn't have any rights. 233 00:14:52,780 --> 00:14:55,420 The baby didn't have any say in anything. 234 00:14:55,780 --> 00:15:00,940 And then here we are, We grow up and, you know, 50-4 years old 235 00:15:00,980 --> 00:15:05,780 and I still have no rights. And I have no rights to my 236 00:15:05,780 --> 00:15:09,510 original birth certificate. I have no rights for the agency 237 00:15:09,510 --> 00:15:13,550 to tell me where I even came from, what my genetic history 238 00:15:13,550 --> 00:15:14,910 is. Do you know? 239 00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:17,510 I think this is another thing that people don't think about. 240 00:15:17,510 --> 00:15:22,670 But when, you know, when I started dating, I would always 241 00:15:22,910 --> 00:15:26,670 wonder her like this person I'm dating could be my relative. 242 00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:30,830 I don't know. I don't know, you know, and 243 00:15:30,830 --> 00:15:32,270 people don't think about those things. 244 00:15:32,270 --> 00:15:36,190 But I did. And it's kind of funny because 245 00:15:36,190 --> 00:15:40,710 when I started dating Greg, my, a friend of mine was like, you 246 00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:44,070 guys look a lot alike. Saying that to an adoptee is 247 00:15:44,070 --> 00:15:47,390 terrifying. I mean, it's terrifying. 248 00:15:47,390 --> 00:15:49,550 It's like, wait, what? Oh, I never really noticed. 249 00:15:49,550 --> 00:15:52,470 Oh well, crap. Are we related somehow? 250 00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:54,670 I don't know. You know, it's horrible. 251 00:15:54,670 --> 00:15:59,270 It's a horrible feeling. But something that, you know, a 252 00:15:59,270 --> 00:16:02,870 harmless comment that somebody was like, oh, you guys are so 253 00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:04,550 cute together. You guys look like it's like, 254 00:16:04,630 --> 00:16:07,910 terrifying for me. And no, I'm not related to Greg. 255 00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:11,710 But, you know, it's just things like that that people don't 256 00:16:11,710 --> 00:16:14,510 think about. And we're not, we're not Privy 257 00:16:14,510 --> 00:16:18,550 to any of that. I didn't choose to be adopted. 258 00:16:18,750 --> 00:16:22,670 I didn't get to choose anything. And I still don't get to choose. 259 00:16:22,670 --> 00:16:25,910 I have no rights. Everybody else had rights. 260 00:16:26,510 --> 00:16:30,670 You know, my birth mother could have, you know, decided that she 261 00:16:30,670 --> 00:16:35,030 wanted to hide forever. And that was her, right. 262 00:16:35,270 --> 00:16:39,930 You know, my adoptive parents could have lied to me and said 263 00:16:39,930 --> 00:16:44,090 that I was there, you know, genetic child, and that was 264 00:16:44,090 --> 00:16:47,210 their right. But I don't have any rights. 265 00:16:48,090 --> 00:16:52,930 And that's what just makes me so angry when it comes to adoptees 266 00:16:52,930 --> 00:16:58,290 because we have questions. It's just not fair that we can't 267 00:16:58,290 --> 00:17:01,970 get those answered. Anyway, I get off my soapbox 268 00:17:01,970 --> 00:17:06,060 about that for now. I can't guarantee because it 269 00:17:06,060 --> 00:17:11,859 will probably come up again because it just burns my ass. 270 00:17:11,940 --> 00:17:14,940 To be honest. I just get so pissed off about 271 00:17:14,940 --> 00:17:17,380 it. All right, so let's get back to 272 00:17:17,380 --> 00:17:20,619 the book here. So yes, I think counseling is 273 00:17:20,619 --> 00:17:26,180 so, so important before and after to all parties involved. 274 00:17:26,180 --> 00:17:29,900 Of course you can't counsel the baby, but at least the adoptive 275 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:35,670 parents can be aware. And you know, if they do see 276 00:17:35,670 --> 00:17:40,390 some red flags come up, just that they could be more kind and 277 00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:43,950 understanding towards them instead of and try not to. 278 00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:47,350 I know it's super hard for probably adoptive parent to 279 00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:53,070 realize that they can't fill that void no matter what they 280 00:17:53,070 --> 00:17:55,950 do. They could do everything right, 281 00:17:56,470 --> 00:18:00,070 everything right. My parents did everything right, 282 00:18:00,630 --> 00:18:07,540 but there was nothing they could do to fix what happened to me 283 00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:10,380 before they got me. There's nothing. 284 00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:14,540 So just knowing that and knowing as we go through this book, 285 00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:19,140 they're going to mention some things that a lot of adoptees, 286 00:18:19,540 --> 00:18:22,540 the problems that they have connecting and this kind of 287 00:18:22,540 --> 00:18:24,180 thing with relationships and such. 288 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:29,300 So just kind of to be aware of those things and give a little 289 00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:32,750 grace and don't take it personal, Don't take it 290 00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:36,150 personal. That's number one, you're doing 291 00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:39,550 your best and these are things that there's there's not a 292 00:18:39,550 --> 00:18:42,390 bandaid for. You just have to be kind, 293 00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:47,510 gracious, loving and just be there and understand and be able 294 00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:52,190 to have those conversations with your child about how they're 295 00:18:52,190 --> 00:18:56,070 feeling and not take it personally is huge. 296 00:18:56,110 --> 00:19:00,350 It's a big deal. And those adoptive parents that 297 00:19:00,350 --> 00:19:03,310 decide to adopt because of infertility problems or for 298 00:19:03,310 --> 00:19:07,670 whatever reason, they can't have their own biological child. 299 00:19:08,350 --> 00:19:10,750 That's something that they're going to need counseling for 300 00:19:10,750 --> 00:19:15,310 too, because that is a loss. You know that's a loss. 301 00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:19,430 And you need to grieve that and warn that and not and work 302 00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:24,150 through that and not bring another child in to try and 303 00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:28,280 alleviate the pain of that. That's something that needs to 304 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,640 be worked through before you bring that child into the the 305 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:36,320 fold of the family, in my opinion, because that's all 306 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,520 going to act out in the whole dynamic of the relationship 307 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,440 that's already going to have that primal wound. 308 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:49,680 So Nancy Barrier goes on to quote this Doctor Chamberlain, 309 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,800 He wrote a book called Babies Remember Birth. 310 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,280 And she says he goes on to say babies know more than they are 311 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,360 supposed to know. Minutes after birth, a baby can 312 00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:01,320 pick out his mother's face, which he has never seen, from a 313 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,440 gallery of photos. The newly discovered truth is 314 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,360 that newborn babies have all their senses and make use of 315 00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:10,480 them just as the rest of us do. Their cries of pain are 316 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,680 authentic. Babies are not unfeeling. 317 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,440 It is we who are unfeeling. And the Nancy says if babies 318 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,360 remember birth, then they also remember what happened right 319 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,560 after birth, which is that their mother the person to whom they 320 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,860 were connected. And whom they expected to 321 00:20:24,860 --> 00:20:27,620 welcome them into, the world was suddenly missing. 322 00:20:28,220 --> 00:20:32,180 How does this experience impact the emotions and senses of a 323 00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:35,420 newborn baby? And even just reading that, it's 324 00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:39,380 just super heartbreaking to me because that baby has to cope 325 00:20:39,380 --> 00:20:42,420 all by its little self with all of that. 326 00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:44,100 They can't talk. They can't. 327 00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:47,860 All they can do is probably cry out their emotions. 328 00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:52,580 And you know, we don't have the brain capacity to remember when 329 00:20:52,580 --> 00:20:55,990 we're a little baby at that point. 330 00:20:56,150 --> 00:21:01,910 So that has to go cellular. You know, if you've gone through 331 00:21:01,910 --> 00:21:05,310 a trauma and you something triggers that trauma, it's 332 00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:10,510 almost like a visceral reaction, a visceral feeling that you 333 00:21:10,670 --> 00:21:14,910 actually feel in your body and emotionally as well. 334 00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:21,030 And so even though I don't remember being born, that is in 335 00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:26,370 me, but it's still in me. It's buried in my cells, my 336 00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:30,770 cells. Remember that visceral reaction, 337 00:21:30,770 --> 00:21:38,010 the feelings to being taken. We really underestimate babies 338 00:21:38,370 --> 00:21:42,130 and physically, emotionally, what they can do. 339 00:21:42,290 --> 00:21:46,170 We really underestimate it. And we just, this is not a fun 340 00:21:46,170 --> 00:21:49,330 subject to talk about and nobody really wants to discuss it. 341 00:21:49,890 --> 00:21:53,370 And I remember, you know, bringing up adoption to certain 342 00:21:53,370 --> 00:21:55,530 people and what do they always say? 343 00:21:55,850 --> 00:21:59,730 You can tell they're they get very uncomfortable and and they 344 00:21:59,730 --> 00:22:02,530 just like, don't want to talk about it and they're like, well, 345 00:22:02,530 --> 00:22:05,690 but you have great parents, you know, like that just covers 346 00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:10,650 everything that fixes it. Like, it's like, the only way I 347 00:22:10,650 --> 00:22:18,250 can describe how it might relate, A relatable way to think 348 00:22:18,250 --> 00:22:22,280 about it. Say you're a mother and you had 349 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:28,000 your baby and you take your baby home and, you know, five years, 350 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:34,440 10 years down the line, you find out that your baby got switched 351 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,480 with somebody else's baby and the baby that you brought home 352 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,320 is not your biological child. Would that matter to you? 353 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:47,720 Would you want to go find your biological child? 354 00:22:49,340 --> 00:22:52,580 Of course you would. Would it negate the fact that 355 00:22:52,580 --> 00:22:55,820 you've raised this other child as your child for 10 years? 356 00:22:55,940 --> 00:22:58,780 Does that change the love that you have for that child? 357 00:22:59,220 --> 00:23:01,260 That you still feel like that is your child? 358 00:23:01,260 --> 00:23:03,980 Whether or not you just found out that this child's not 359 00:23:03,980 --> 00:23:07,500 biological doesn't matter. You've already bonded with that 360 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:12,540 that child. But you have a biological child 361 00:23:12,540 --> 00:23:16,260 out there somewhere. Would you not want to go find 362 00:23:16,260 --> 00:23:20,360 them and look for them? It's the same thing. 363 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,560 It's the same thing for S adoptees. 364 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,240 Yes, I have a mother and father and I don't want to, I don't 365 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:36,680 want to replace them, but I have biological family that I want to 366 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,360 know. I want to know them, you know. 367 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,960 And so it doesn't negate anything that anybody has done 368 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,700 in my family or it doesn't cancel them out in any way. 369 00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:50,780 It doesn't change the love, the relationships, nothing. 370 00:23:50,820 --> 00:23:55,740 It doesn't. But there is a need to find out 371 00:23:55,820 --> 00:23:58,300 and know and see where you came from. 372 00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:02,020 But if your baby got switched at birth, you wouldn't just be 373 00:24:02,020 --> 00:24:05,580 like, oh, well, I have, I have my this daughter. 374 00:24:05,580 --> 00:24:09,180 And that takes the place of this other biological daughter. 375 00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:10,580 It doesn't. It doesn't. 376 00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:15,180 So if you can kind of think of it that way and just be a little 377 00:24:15,180 --> 00:24:18,810 more understanding to adoptees that want to have these 378 00:24:18,810 --> 00:24:23,050 conversations. But we get shut down so much and 379 00:24:23,130 --> 00:24:27,930 it and it those conversations make us feel like why are you? 380 00:24:28,250 --> 00:24:30,010 Why are you searching for your birth mother? 381 00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:35,050 You have a mother and it makes you feel less than. 382 00:24:35,050 --> 00:24:38,850 It makes you feel terrible that you want or you have this need 383 00:24:39,330 --> 00:24:45,480 to do that because people just don't understand that it's a 384 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,160 it's a primal need. It's a primal need to know where 385 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,240 you came from. I'm not sure why the subject 386 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,200 when we talk about adoption, why it makes people so 387 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,560 uncomfortable, because the only thing that makes me 388 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,640 uncomfortable is the judgment I feel from the person that I'm 389 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,360 talking to. I want to talk about it. 390 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:08,480 It doesn't hurt. I think it's a very interesting 391 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,900 story, but what makes me uncomfortable is how I feel. 392 00:25:12,980 --> 00:25:16,140 The person is reacting and I could probably feel their 393 00:25:16,140 --> 00:25:20,260 uncomfortable uncomfortableness in the whole thing. 394 00:25:20,260 --> 00:25:22,500 So that's what makes me uncomfortable and it makes me 395 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:24,140 feel like I don't want to talk about it. 396 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:29,980 So have the conversations I I really that's what I'm going to 397 00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:33,860 be doing on this podcast. I already have a few guests that 398 00:25:33,860 --> 00:25:36,140 are going to be interviewed soon, so I'm going to be 399 00:25:36,140 --> 00:25:38,260 bringing some of their interesting stories. 400 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,240 It's time we have the hard conversations and talk about it. 401 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,560 It's just not fair. It's not fair to the adoptees 402 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,600 that we feel that we can't talk about those things because we 403 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,800 don't want to hurt everybody else around us. 404 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,120 And it's just not fair because we do most of I don't want to 405 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,760 say I don't want to put everybody in the box, but most 406 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,720 of us want to have these conversations and not feel bad 407 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,680 or make somebody else feel bad about having them. 408 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,400 Another interesting thing she brings up in the book is that as 409 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,040 the number of caregivers increase, the ability to attach 410 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,400 diminishes and the numbing of feelings becomes more and more 411 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,440 evident. And I was kind of reflecting on 412 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:28,360 that this morning thinking about that because that would go for 413 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,840 children that were in incubators and things too. 414 00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:37,590 Taking the feeling of taking from your mother, you know, and 415 00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:40,110 having all these caregivers, nurses and this and that. 416 00:26:40,990 --> 00:26:45,430 Also, I, you know, I grew up when I had my kids. 417 00:26:45,950 --> 00:26:48,950 You got six weeks off and then you went back to work. 418 00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:52,710 So my babies were, I think my son was six weeks when I went 419 00:26:52,790 --> 00:26:55,510 back to work. He's still a teeny little baby. 420 00:26:55,950 --> 00:27:00,710 So does that affect them at six weeks, you know, handing them 421 00:27:00,710 --> 00:27:06,140 over to a stranger for 910 hours a day, you know, who loved him 422 00:27:06,140 --> 00:27:07,860 dearly and took great care of him. 423 00:27:07,860 --> 00:27:12,740 But does he, did he have that primal wound like at six weeks? 424 00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:15,100 I would think that that's a possibility. 425 00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:17,620 It's just it's not just adoptees. 426 00:27:17,620 --> 00:27:21,380 I think it could, you know, affect a lot of people, just in 427 00:27:21,380 --> 00:27:23,740 different ways in different scenarios. 428 00:27:24,550 --> 00:27:28,350 And then Nancy goes on to talk about adoption issues, and she 429 00:27:28,350 --> 00:27:31,550 says it has been noted by some clinicians in working with 430 00:27:31,550 --> 00:27:34,670 adoptees that they all have essentially the same issues, 431 00:27:35,070 --> 00:27:37,710 whether they were adopted at birth or as teenagers. 432 00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:41,190 These issues center around separation and loss, trust, 433 00:27:41,190 --> 00:27:45,950 rejection, guilt and shame, identity, intimacy, loyalty and 434 00:27:45,950 --> 00:27:50,310 mastery or power and control, and will be dealt with later in 435 00:27:50,310 --> 00:27:54,260 this book, which should be a very interesting chapter. 436 00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:58,460 But it's just interesting. And you know a lot of people 437 00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:01,900 have, you don't have to be adopted to have a lot of these 438 00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:06,180 issues, but it's just kind of a reoccurring theme with adoptees 439 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:08,780 it seems like. And I don't you know, I could 440 00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:13,420 take some of these and own them and and others know, but but I 441 00:28:13,420 --> 00:28:17,780 can see how it can. These adoption issues can come 442 00:28:17,780 --> 00:28:22,720 about because of the loss of the 1st true security blanket that 443 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,360 the baby had. And I want to read this part of 444 00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:31,400 the book to you guys because it just just really rang true to me 445 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,200 and it says all of this rhetoric ignores 1 simple but critical 446 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,360 fact. The adoptee was there. 447 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,000 The child actually experienced being left alone by the 448 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,080 biological mother and being handed over to strangers. 449 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,280 That he may have been only a few days or a few minutes old makes 450 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,260 no difference. He shared a 40 week experience 451 00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:55,700 with a person with whom he probably bonded in utero, a 452 00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:58,180 person to whom he is biologically, genetically, 453 00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:00,660 historically, and perhaps even more importantly, 454 00:29:01,020 --> 00:29:04,100 psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually connected. 455 00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:07,060 And some people would like him to believe that it is the 456 00:29:07,060 --> 00:29:11,180 telling of the experience of the severing of that bond which 457 00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:14,820 makes him feel so bad. And So what do we do? 458 00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:19,210 We shut down the adoptee from telling because it makes 459 00:29:19,290 --> 00:29:22,610 everyone uncomfortable and feel bad, but it doesn't make the 460 00:29:22,650 --> 00:29:24,650 adoptee uncomfortable or feel bad. 461 00:29:26,010 --> 00:29:31,370 So have the conversation. Let them have a voice finally, 462 00:29:31,370 --> 00:29:36,610 and be okay with telling it without judgment or criticism. 463 00:29:36,610 --> 00:29:40,050 Or why are you doing that? Why are you stirring the pot? 464 00:29:40,250 --> 00:29:42,490 Why are you bringing this up? It doesn't feel good. 465 00:29:43,690 --> 00:29:49,080 It has nothing to do with anybody except for the adoptee 466 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,920 and the birth mother and the birth family. 467 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,760 I mean, it really doesn't. It doesn't affect the 468 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,920 relationships, the other relationships that you've 469 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,760 already formed. The only time I personally have 470 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:05,120 seen that is when the child was not told and they were lied to, 471 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,960 and then it comes out somehow. And then I can see how those 472 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,200 relationships could be broken. The trust is gone and there you 473 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:20,080 go, there's another, another broken trust issue bond there 474 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,680 with the family that you had thought was yours. 475 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,760 I can't imagine that. I just, I can't even. 476 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,120 I think almost that that would almost be worse than the primal 477 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,320 wound is learning that your family lied to you and that they 478 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,640 thought that was OKI. Just I just that really makes me 479 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,160 mad. I think people think that if we 480 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,240 don't tell them, then they're going to feel more part of the 481 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,550 family and they want to spin it so that it's better for the 482 00:30:50,550 --> 00:30:54,870 adoptee, better for the child, that they you don't want to tell 483 00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:56,830 them that they weren't wanted in some way. 484 00:30:58,030 --> 00:31:01,950 That's just not true. And for what I've been reading 485 00:31:01,950 --> 00:31:05,030 in this book, a lot of people that weren't told and found out 486 00:31:05,030 --> 00:31:11,590 later in life still felt there was something off, something 487 00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:15,790 missing that they didn't quite have. 488 00:31:16,250 --> 00:31:18,850 They felt like they didn't have the connection. 489 00:31:19,530 --> 00:31:27,170 And I think that cellular level, they know, they know that, but 490 00:31:27,170 --> 00:31:30,210 you can't really put your finger on exactly what it is. 491 00:31:30,210 --> 00:31:34,530 But you know, you might not remember, but you feel it now. 492 00:31:34,530 --> 00:31:37,610 I never had the feeling personally of not fitting in 493 00:31:37,610 --> 00:31:41,530 because I knew, but I think it's in the times that the children 494 00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:45,290 are not told that they have that feeling of not fitting in but 495 00:31:45,290 --> 00:31:49,890 not quite exactly knowing why, one man in the book it said. 496 00:31:49,890 --> 00:31:53,370 Although shocked at age 33 when finding a paper which told of 497 00:31:53,370 --> 00:31:56,810 his adoption, he did not feel shocked by the fact itself but 498 00:31:56,810 --> 00:32:00,850 by the betrayal of its have been kept from him all those years, 499 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,520 even though the betrayal did not fully manifest until adulthood. 500 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,440 It had been an unconscious barrier between him and his 501 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,200 parents throughout his childhood. 502 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,720 There was a secret. There was something that he was 503 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,520 not being told and he knew it. He knew it. 504 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,120 So there goes the trust right out the window between the child 505 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:26,160 and his parents, and there comes, you know, the dishonesty 506 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,000 and that affects the entire relationship. 507 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,400 That's so huge. You know people that don't tell 508 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,240 their kids, they say it's for the adopted child, but really 509 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,920 it's a selfish choice to make that man. 510 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,480 To just lie to your kid like that, that is selfish. 511 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,680 You want to be. You want to feel like you are 512 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,320 the parent. You don't want to have to deal 513 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,840 with what comes along with the child knowing that they're 514 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,360 adopted. You don't want to deal with it. 515 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,250 And that's just not fair because the child knows they feel, but 516 00:32:59,250 --> 00:33:01,450 there is something, there's something that you're hiding 517 00:33:01,450 --> 00:33:03,410 from them. The other thing she brings up, 518 00:33:03,410 --> 00:33:06,410 which I kind of brought up last week, that I feel like I just 519 00:33:06,410 --> 00:33:09,970 got brought by the stork, you know, it's some adoptees say 520 00:33:09,970 --> 00:33:13,770 they feel as if they came from outer space or a file drawer, 521 00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:18,170 you know. And I kind of felt like my 522 00:33:18,170 --> 00:33:22,210 parents went to the store to Target and took me off the shelf 523 00:33:22,210 --> 00:33:25,290 and brought me home. And I was never born. 524 00:33:25,450 --> 00:33:27,490 If you feel like you were never born. 525 00:33:28,260 --> 00:33:31,860 And my mom will be coming on in the next week or two and telling 526 00:33:31,860 --> 00:33:34,980 her part of the story. But there's one part that she'll 527 00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:40,420 be telling that always makes me feel like they went and bought 528 00:33:40,420 --> 00:33:44,180 me at Target and took me off the shelf and brought me home. 529 00:33:44,740 --> 00:33:54,780 And they were offered to bring me back if my parents didn't 530 00:33:54,780 --> 00:33:57,040 want me. And I don't want to give too 531 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,040 much of the story away, but it feels like, Do you still have 532 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,360 your receipt for that child? Because you can bring her back 533 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,160 and exchange her for another child if you'd like. 534 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,960 And it's like, what the hell? What the hell? 535 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,440 Anyway, my mom will tell the story and you'll probably know 536 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,080 what part I'm talking about, but I don't want to give too much 537 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,320 away because she's going to tell the story. 538 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,320 But yeah, that's how it feels, kind of as an adoptee. 539 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,600 Oh, you could bring her back if you're not happy with her. 540 00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:27,820 Is this one OK? Is she defective at all? 541 00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:29,179 Because she could bring her back. 542 00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:33,340 Oh, God, this is a child we're talking about. 543 00:34:33,340 --> 00:34:36,420 This isn't a commodity. It's not a box of cereal. 544 00:34:36,420 --> 00:34:39,219 You just bought it at the store. Like, you can't just. 545 00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:41,500 Well, I mean, you could. You could have just brought me 546 00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:42,659 back. You could have done it. 547 00:34:43,219 --> 00:34:45,100 But that's just crazy. Like, I don't. 548 00:34:45,620 --> 00:34:50,090 It makes no sense. There's just, there's no regard 549 00:34:50,090 --> 00:34:54,409 for the adoptee at all because we're babies and we can't 550 00:34:54,409 --> 00:34:59,330 express that this isn't right, that we have feelings about 551 00:34:59,370 --> 00:35:02,090 everything and we don't know what else. 552 00:35:02,250 --> 00:35:04,570 There's no way to. There's no outlet for that. 553 00:35:05,090 --> 00:35:07,930 So what needs to happen is the adults just need to be more 554 00:35:07,930 --> 00:35:10,090 aware. And that's why this book is so, 555 00:35:10,090 --> 00:35:12,810 so important. Like I said, it's hard to read. 556 00:35:12,810 --> 00:35:17,890 It really is, but it gives an understanding about so much that 557 00:35:17,890 --> 00:35:21,250 you might be experiencing with your adoptive child. 558 00:35:22,330 --> 00:35:26,930 The author quotes a doctor from one of his books and it says we 559 00:35:26,930 --> 00:35:29,690 now know that they are cognitive, they being the baby. 560 00:35:30,330 --> 00:35:34,210 They are cognitive beings with a wide range of abilities, such as 561 00:35:34,210 --> 00:35:37,210 recognizing their own mother's face, smell and energy, feeling 562 00:35:37,250 --> 00:35:40,410 a wide range of emotions, remembering, learning and using 563 00:35:40,410 --> 00:35:44,050 all 5 senses to experience their new life outside the womb. 564 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,680 You know, we think of babies as like a little blank canvas, 565 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,280 which we kind of are, but they've already lived some life 566 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,520 even in from the womb, you know, or the first hours or days after 567 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,200 birth. They've lived those hours and 568 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,880 they do have, you know, these their senses and their feelings 569 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,520 and their emotions. And it's just easy to sweep all 570 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,840 of that under the rug because they can't remember it growing 571 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,560 up and they can't verbalize it in the moment. 572 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,800 So we just kind of sweep all that under the rug and pretend 573 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,120 like it doesn't. It's not happening, but it's 574 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,400 going to come out. It's going to come out later in 575 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,320 life if we don't address it or not address it. 576 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,720 But at least we're cognitive of the fact that this happened and 577 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,040 that there can be some things that are going to come up that 578 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,320 are stemming from it. And then Nancy uncovered this 579 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,080 horrible fact. I don't even want to think about 580 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,750 this, but, she said. I learned and talking to social 581 00:36:46,750 --> 00:36:50,430 workers who worked in adoption agencies that one of the ways in 582 00:36:50,430 --> 00:36:54,310 which these grieving babies were kept quiet was by administering 583 00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:58,070 phenobarbital. Being left with no one who cares 584 00:36:58,110 --> 00:37:01,350 is devastating, and babies scream their outrage at this 585 00:37:01,350 --> 00:37:05,430 denial of the basic human need to be held or to be touched. 586 00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:07,510 I just can't. I can't. 587 00:37:08,990 --> 00:37:13,780 I can't even think about that. That just kills me that you are 588 00:37:13,780 --> 00:37:19,740 drugging these babies in their distress, in their trauma. 589 00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:23,100 It just that just makes me so sick. 590 00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:27,780 How was that OK? How was that OK? 591 00:37:28,460 --> 00:37:31,020 Another thing she addresses in chapter one, which I kind of 592 00:37:31,020 --> 00:37:36,540 thought was interesting, is her daughter hated birthday parties. 593 00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:41,810 She did not want to celebrate her birthday, and her mom really 594 00:37:41,810 --> 00:37:45,370 didn't understand it. And I kind of I don't like 595 00:37:45,370 --> 00:37:48,250 parties that are centered around me. 596 00:37:48,650 --> 00:37:50,330 I never really have. I'm. 597 00:37:50,570 --> 00:37:53,850 I'm getting over it now. I'm a lot better about it. 598 00:37:54,250 --> 00:37:58,730 But I never even like having a baby shower or a wedding shower. 599 00:37:58,730 --> 00:38:00,890 I don't like to be. I didn't like to be the center 600 00:38:00,890 --> 00:38:05,700 of attention. And I think maybe it's because I 601 00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:09,660 didn't want to feel rejected. Or, you know, if like 10 people 602 00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:12,860 showed up and we invited 50, then there's another rejection. 603 00:38:12,860 --> 00:38:14,180 So I didn't even want to go there. 604 00:38:14,180 --> 00:38:17,540 I didn't want to. I didn't want to feel that 605 00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:22,380 horrible rejection again. So yeah, especially as a child, 606 00:38:22,380 --> 00:38:24,740 I remember that. Just an uncomfortable feeling, 607 00:38:24,740 --> 00:38:28,020 having a birthday party, you know, supposed to be exciting. 608 00:38:28,020 --> 00:38:31,140 It's like, why am I not wanting to do this? 609 00:38:31,140 --> 00:38:34,420 And they never ever, ever related it to my adoption. 610 00:38:34,420 --> 00:38:37,500 But it makes sense. You know, some people don't even 611 00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:40,420 want to celebrate that when that month comes up, it's just like 612 00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:43,340 it's that month again that I was born and rejected that. 613 00:38:43,340 --> 00:38:47,340 I think subconsciously that's a thing for some people. 614 00:38:47,580 --> 00:38:50,460 That's like anybody that had a trauma, you kind of remember 615 00:38:50,460 --> 00:38:52,460 that day or you know that somebody died. 616 00:38:52,460 --> 00:38:55,460 You remember the day they died. And you know that just that 617 00:38:55,460 --> 00:39:00,110 doesn't go away almost cellular that you can feel it, you know, 618 00:39:00,190 --> 00:39:03,030 coming, just the sadness or whatever. 619 00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:06,470 So it's kind of, I think I kind of related to that in a way. 620 00:39:07,070 --> 00:39:11,430 In fact, the author says that clinicians and parents of that 621 00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:15,870 told her that adoptees often act out a great deal before or 622 00:39:15,870 --> 00:39:19,070 during their birthday parties. These poor parents are trying to 623 00:39:19,070 --> 00:39:21,190 throw their kid a birthday party, and they're acting out, 624 00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:23,750 and they have no idea why. They're being ungrateful little 625 00:39:23,750 --> 00:39:26,950 brats, you know, but they're hurting is what it is. 626 00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:28,990 They're hurting and you just don't know because you weren't 627 00:39:28,990 --> 00:39:32,350 told. You didn't get a manual on, you 628 00:39:32,350 --> 00:39:36,390 know, how to raise an adoptee baby and what to expect, you 629 00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:39,350 know, with that, you were just handed a baby and you took it 630 00:39:39,350 --> 00:39:40,990 home. That was it in a story. 631 00:39:41,230 --> 00:39:44,990 And the most heartbreaking part about the whole birthday party 632 00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:47,590 thing is the kid doesn't even know why they're doing it. 633 00:39:47,950 --> 00:39:49,630 You ask them why they're acting out. 634 00:39:49,630 --> 00:39:52,670 They probably don't know. That's just so sad. 635 00:39:54,170 --> 00:39:58,330 Anyway, I just want to wind up the last, the last of this first 636 00:39:58,330 --> 00:40:01,690 chapter by reading this summary, because this really, really is 637 00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:04,170 good. It's his adoption, considered by 638 00:40:04,170 --> 00:40:07,610 many to be merely a concept, is in fact a traumatic experience 639 00:40:07,610 --> 00:40:10,450 for the adoptee. It begins with the separation 640 00:40:10,450 --> 00:40:12,850 from his biological mother and ends with his living with 641 00:40:12,850 --> 00:40:16,410 strangers most of his life. He may have denied or impressed 642 00:40:16,410 --> 00:40:19,370 his feelings about this experience, having had no sense 643 00:40:19,730 --> 00:40:21,730 that they would be acknowledged or validated. 644 00:40:22,490 --> 00:40:27,450 He may instead have been made to feel as if he should be grateful 645 00:40:27,450 --> 00:40:31,810 for this monumental manipulation of his destiny somewhere within 646 00:40:31,810 --> 00:40:33,930 him. However, he does have feelings 647 00:40:33,970 --> 00:40:36,890 about this traumatic experience, and having these feelings does 648 00:40:36,890 --> 00:40:40,050 not mean that he is abnormal, sick, or crazy. 649 00:40:40,450 --> 00:40:43,490 It means that he is wounded as a result of having suffered A 650 00:40:43,490 --> 00:40:46,850 devastating loss, and that his feelings about this are 651 00:40:46,850 --> 00:40:49,930 legitimate and need to be acknowledged rather than ignored 652 00:40:49,970 --> 00:40:54,640 or challenged. Yes, yes, it's exactly what I've 653 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,400 been trying to say, that we need to talk about this without 654 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,680 feeling ignored or challenged, or that it makes people feel 655 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,960 uncomfortable. And I understand that for some 656 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,400 listening to this, these things are very uncomfortable to think 657 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,040 about or to bring up. But it's all about the 658 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:20,120 education, so that we can approach these adoptees in a 659 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,360 little better way to help them cope with this stuff. 660 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,480 I don't. I'm one that I don't like to be 661 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:31,640 a victim of anything in my life. But I would be naive to not look 662 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,280 at some of this and draw some correlations in my own life. 663 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,680 And, you know, that gives me a chance to acknowledge it and 664 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:44,320 kind of find the root cause of it so that I can be a better 665 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,000 person and that I can realize it and be like, okay, That makes 666 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,270 sense now. Maybe I can let that go now that 667 00:41:52,270 --> 00:41:55,030 I've realized, you know, where it came from. 668 00:41:56,110 --> 00:42:00,230 So that sums up chapter one of The Primal Wound by Nancy 669 00:42:00,230 --> 00:42:04,830 Verrier. And I'm going to post on my 670 00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:07,590 Facebook and Instagram pages this week. 671 00:42:07,950 --> 00:42:12,390 I have a list of this looks like something that the foster 672 00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:15,950 parents probably wrote up for my parents. 673 00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:20,710 And it's kind of like what I ate, what medication was I on, 674 00:42:20,710 --> 00:42:24,750 what formula, you know, what even soap that you know, I they 675 00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:28,750 were using on me. And it's like basically a 676 00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:31,790 schedule of when to feed me, when to do this one to do that. 677 00:42:32,270 --> 00:42:35,950 The one thing that I just find super interesting and this goes 678 00:42:35,950 --> 00:42:38,790 back to where I say I felt like, you know, my parents went and 679 00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:42,400 picked me up off the shelf at the shelf at Target under 680 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,320 medications it says Neosporin and in parentheses it says 681 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,560 included, you know, like when you look on the box or something 682 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,760 like a toy or whatever it was like included is the batteries 683 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,200 and is that well included in my box was the Neosporin. 684 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,640 I just it just kind of solidifies that feeling for me 685 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:07,160 that I, you know that I was, I just came out of nowhere. 686 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,220 I was never born. I was just there, included with 687 00:43:12,260 --> 00:43:15,700 the news porn. But anyway, so I'm going to take 688 00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:17,940 a picture of that and I'm going to post it just so you can kind 689 00:43:17,940 --> 00:43:21,260 of see what my parents got for instruction. 690 00:43:21,260 --> 00:43:23,500 This was the instruction manual. It's one page. 691 00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:25,980 That's what they got. Here's a baby. 692 00:43:26,340 --> 00:43:28,180 Here's this one page manual. Good luck. 693 00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:33,140 So anyway, coming up on the podcast, like I said, my mom 694 00:43:33,140 --> 00:43:37,580 will be coming on soon. I also have a social worker 695 00:43:37,580 --> 00:43:41,250 that's going to talk about her experiences and what she has 696 00:43:41,250 --> 00:43:44,490 observed. And then I have some adoptees 697 00:43:44,530 --> 00:43:47,410 and adoptive parents that are going to be guests on the show 698 00:43:47,410 --> 00:43:50,490 as well. I will keep talking about the 699 00:43:50,490 --> 00:43:53,930 primal wound, also weaving that in there, here and there. 700 00:43:54,650 --> 00:43:57,050 And I'm kind of still going through that book. 701 00:43:57,050 --> 00:43:58,970 I'm still reading it little by little. 702 00:43:59,330 --> 00:44:01,490 I'm digesting. It's a lot like I said. 703 00:44:01,490 --> 00:44:04,850 So if you do decide to pick up the book, just be prepared. 704 00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:10,310 Just take a deep breath and take it for what it is and try not to 705 00:44:11,470 --> 00:44:16,790 read into it too much. And the book is a suggestion on, 706 00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:19,630 you know, things that could come about from having the primal 707 00:44:19,630 --> 00:44:21,630 moon. And it doesn't mean that every 708 00:44:21,630 --> 00:44:28,430 adoptee has every symptom or emotional response to everything 709 00:44:28,430 --> 00:44:31,790 the same way. So, you know, just read it and 710 00:44:31,870 --> 00:44:33,630 be kind to yourself while you're reading it. 711 00:44:33,630 --> 00:44:36,470 It can bring up a lot of emotions and things like that. 712 00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:39,390 So. And it might bring up things 713 00:44:39,390 --> 00:44:42,350 that you just never even thought about. 714 00:44:42,950 --> 00:44:44,510 It could bring those things up again, too. 715 00:44:44,510 --> 00:44:49,070 So as you're listening to the podcast or reading the book, you 716 00:44:49,070 --> 00:44:52,670 know, counseling is a big deal. I bet you now that they are 717 00:44:52,670 --> 00:44:56,350 counselors out there that specialize in people who are 718 00:44:56,390 --> 00:45:04,030 adopted or foster kids and and can help with that if you need 719 00:45:04,030 --> 00:45:06,390 it. So please don't hesitate to go 720 00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:08,590 look for a counselor, somebody to talk to. 721 00:45:09,630 --> 00:45:12,910 All right, well, I will see you next week. 722 00:45:12,910 --> 00:45:17,190 But in the meantime, take what you need and leave it you don't. 723 00:45:17,830 --> 00:45:20,830 And always remember to mind your own karma. 724 00:45:21,830 --> 00:45:31,890 We'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening 725 00:45:31,890 --> 00:45:34,490 to this episode of the Mind Your Own Karma podcast. 726 00:45:35,010 --> 00:45:38,090 If you enjoyed today's episode, can I ask you for a favor? 727 00:45:38,810 --> 00:45:42,130 Could you please leave a rating, comment and share this podcast 728 00:45:42,130 --> 00:45:44,930 to friends, family, or to your social media pages? 729 00:45:45,530 --> 00:45:48,370 You have no idea how much these little gestures help get the 730 00:45:48,370 --> 00:45:51,410 word out about this podcast. Don't forget to click the 731 00:45:51,410 --> 00:45:54,610 subscribe tab to get notified of future episodes so you won't 732 00:45:54,610 --> 00:45:57,360 miss a thing. You can also find my Instagram 733 00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,800 and Facebook links in the show notes if you would like to 734 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,320 follow and support me there as well. 735 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,040 Lastly, if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on 736 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,400 the Adoption Chronicles season of the podcast, you can e-mail 737 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,400 me at mindyourownkarma@gmail.com. 738 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,160 Thanks again and I'll see you next week.