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Well, hello and thank you for 
tuning in to another episode of 

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the professional pricing Society
podcast. 

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My name is Terrance and we have 
a great conversation ahead of us

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today. 
As we will be discussing the 

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importance of democratizing 
access to better pricing. 

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We have that conversation 
spearheaded by two very 

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important people. 
To very special guest with us 

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today, the first of which is mr.
Matthew Johnson, he's the 

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founder and CEO of Epic 
conjoint, which is a 

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full-service product pricing, 
and promotion decision. 

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A software solution provider 
enabling game-changing b2c and 

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B2B commercial decisions across 
over 130 markets within three 

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business days. 
Thank you so much. 

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Matt for joining us today Wells,
have Rob ribbed shook who is the

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managing partner of ebitda 
catalyst, they provide pricing 

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strategy, and execution advisory
for high growth brands in the 

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consumer and software sauce 
Industries with a focus on 

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middle-market mission-driven 
clients how you guys doing. 

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Great looking forward to this. 
Good, good. 

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Awesome was a pleasure to have 
you, both. 

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Let's just go ahead and jump 
right into it right into the 

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discussion, democratizing access
to better. 

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Pricing. 
What exactly does that mean to 

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each of you guys? 
Well, maybe maybe I could kick 

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off and just share some 
thoughts? 

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I guess. 
I, you know, I've had the 

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benefit of being in that the hot
seat, that is the pricing. 

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The pricing role used to head of
pricing. 

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The price of department for some
big telecom companies here here 

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in Europe. 
And yeah, I mean by back then it

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was there were times where you 
just felt you were flying by the

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seat of your pants. 
You, you were relying purely on 

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transactional data to make your 
future pricing decisions. 

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And you know as we know it's a 
bit like the investment, you'll 

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investment caveat, you know, 
past Almonds is not an indicator

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of future. 
So there was definitely a lot of

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squeaky bomb times back then. 
But fortunately, you know, I 

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think in the last just in the 
last five years, maybe the 

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amount of investment in pricing 
Solutions has been, you know, 

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Monumental and you know pricing 
departments. 

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Now get the get the benefit of 
that, you know, in terms of Of 

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having having being able to make
quick pricing decisions at the 

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click you know virtually at the 
click of a button is hugely 

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empowering. 
And yeah it's it's all credit to

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the the solutions providers 
who've been Innovative in this 

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space and produced produced the 
codes. 

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Now and I would just chime in 
math. 

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I mean I think obviously with 
you and epic have done you know 

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from a software driven Solutions
standpoint I mean that's been 

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the recipe for democratizing 
access in other parts of 

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industry and economy as well. 
And as pricing has risen in 

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importance and visibility and 
especially as we're traversing 

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this period of, you know, Fairly
extraordinary inflation and just

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pricing centered changes. 
I think the way I think about it

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that is Bryce team. 
Also can have a social impact 

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separation of The Haves and Have
Nots so to speak. 

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And you know, there's always 
been some solutions for, you 

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know, the Fortune 100 Fortune 
500, you know, the kinds of 

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people who could, you know, 
higher very poor. 

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Pricey consulting firms pay for 
very expensive Solutions and so 

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on. 
And at the other end of the 

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spectrum, we have an entire part
of our society, both in terms of

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firms that maybe smaller, 
mid-market, that haven't 

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historically had access to 
either the advice or the 

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solutions, even though they do 
have things to price, right? 

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And then at the very far end of 
the opposite Of the spectrum. 

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You have a lot of individuals 
that may not have anything to 

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price. 
There are net, recipients of the

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price increases that we see the 
price decisions that we see and 

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that might include as far as, 
you know, even retirees. 

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And, you know, the unemployed 
and so on that don't even have 

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their own labor for price. 
So they have nothing to 

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compensate. 
The pricing decisions that are 

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being made that they, you know, 
they're just priced payer. 

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There's so to speak in the 
economy and so for me, thinking 

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about the entities that 
represent these parts of the 

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society, whether it's 
middle-market, firms, startups, 

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nonprofits. 
And when I say nonprofits, you 

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know, at ebitda Catalyst, we've 
always tried to do pro bono work

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for nonprofits that have things 
to price. 

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Those are the types of entities 
that represent these 

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traditionally underprivileged 
when it To access to the 

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benefits of pricing parts of the
economy. 

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So for me, it's always been 
important to not just to serve 

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the halves which all of us do 
and we try to be good at but 

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also think about the other side 
that the recipients of the 

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consequences of some of those 
decisions and how do we keep 

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society and vibrant and the 
economy by burnt by lifting? 

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All boats? 
So, based on what you're saying,

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And this is something that's 
worth getting excited about what

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you say. 
Yeah, for sure. 

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I mean, I'm at Pecan joint is 
just kind of emerging from the 

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startup startup mode and we've 
been immersed in in startup 

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incubators. 
And when I, when we first came 

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into this startup Community, 
notice it was huge blind. 

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Spot pricing was a huge blind 
spot for a lot of startup 

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companies you know, Eric please 
the most important p in the Then

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mix. 
And what I was finding out was, 

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you know, very often, it wasn't 
until the last minute when was 

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ready to hit the launch button. 
That was, oh my God, you know, 

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what price do we put on this? 
Oh, you know, we just, we give 

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it away for free and we'll see, 
we'll see what happens, see what

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clients say or and so, it was, 
it was, it was, it was really 

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scary. 
So we've actually embarked on a 

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pricing training, even amongst 
the community, their startup 

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communities. 
We go around the different. 

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Hubs Soooo and Enterprise 
schools. 

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Educating educating people on 
how on the importance of getting

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their pricing, right? 
Best practice price tools skills

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and processes. 
I guess. 

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Fortunately, back to my previous
point about in the last five 

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years, a huge investment, and 
Innovation and pricings software

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Solutions. 
People now who are starting to 

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take an interest in pricing have
kind of leapfrogged, you know, 

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so what we as pricing guys over 
the last 15 20 years of Taken 

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15, 20 years to get to this 
point. 

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They can do it very, very 
quickly now with all of these 

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pricing solutions that are 
available. 

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So it's yeah, it's hugely 
empowering and liberating for 

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for the pricing community and as
Robert mentioned, you know, 

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really experienced this myself 
as as you know leading the 

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pricing teams within the 
organization's telecom 

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companies, you know. 
They're just totally 

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underestimated, in terms of the 
value, they bring to commercial 

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decision. 
So yeah, really, really 

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exciting, exciting times for the
price and community, and raising

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the profile of that pricing 
Department. 

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You know, looking forward to the
day when we see Chief pricing 

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officer on the board, or in the 
c-suite, don't think it's too 

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far away. 
I couldn't agree more. 

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And I think there is like, so 
many. 

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Facets to get excited about. 
I mean, you know, even the the 

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knowledge that there is 
ultimately sort of a Synergy or 

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build-up effect from the 
contributions made in different 

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areas of this problem, right? 
So so it used to be before I 

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knew math and some of the other 
folks working in this area You 

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know, when a conversation would 
turn for example, with a 

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potential client or to doing 
more research, you would have 

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this cringing feeling of like, 
oh my gosh, here comes the 

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budget conversation and it's 
potentially going to tank the 

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project or, you know, the the 
because it was thoroughly 

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off-putting an inaccessible for 
all. 

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But the, you know, very large 
companies and so certainly 

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Knowing that, that part of the 
ecosystem of solution and has 

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more accessible reliable 
excellent Solutions out there. 

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And also people, we like to work
with writing, those Solutions 

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has made those conversations a 
lot easier and frankly an option

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in more Congress in more clients
situations and in further, as I 

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mentioned later you know, sort 
of like this trickle-down 

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effect, like where is the car? 
Off. 

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You know, if you start high with
the Haves and do you end up low 

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with the really have nots? 
Where is the cutoff of people, 

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you know, still benefiting from 
from this. 

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So for us as providers of advice
advisory rather than necessarily

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softer, we partner with people 
like Matt for software, you know

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that to is, is extremely 
important, right? 

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So a start-up like, Matt was a 
couple of years ago, wouldn't 

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historically have had a Access 
to someone to come in and talk 

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at the reasonable program to 
reasonable cost about what they 

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can do with pricing to be 
better, right? 

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And so we all see the benefits 
of those software and startups 

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and smaller businesses, making 
it and contributing in the 

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economy as best they can. 
And, you know, for the advisory 

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side, we try to extend our 
services to smaller entities 

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like that for precisely that. 
Reason. 

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And, you know, it's exciting to 
say, we don't really say no 

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based on cost, at least, for 
some portion of our work. 

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Okay. 
Yeah. 

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And that's understandable, can 
you forgive me? 

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May have eluded to this or 
mentioned this previously, but 

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were there any specific examples
or two from your specific Farms 

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work? 
Well what we're saying now that 

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the challenges facing all, you 
know, companies You know from 

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startup to SME smaller cap. 
Mid-cap even the large you know 

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household brand names, you know,
they're facing this perfect 

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storm where input costs are 
rising. 

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So profits are getting squeezed 
and now with inflation and the 

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pressures that putting on 
disposable income you know 

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consumers consumers are getting 
In more price conscious and, 

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and, and considering Arbitrage 
positions, you know, trading 

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binder that the more that, you 
know, the generic store brand 

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products. 
That's what we're working with 

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some clients and specifically in
the fmcg spaced that are really 

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feeling that pinch, what they're
really trying to understand. 

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Is how much of this exposure, 
because there's no, there's no 

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end in sight. 
Nobody's talking about This 

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dissipating anytime soon which 
is which is really scary but 

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they're really trying to 
understand how much can they 

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pull on that pricing lever to 
try and alleviate the The 

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Squeeze on margins and in a you 
know in conjunction with looking

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at our cost base and and 
rationalizing. 

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So you know helping them 
understand their the price 

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elasticities of their product. 
Their competitors products at 

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different customer segments 
levels, that's that's critical 

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and that's what the really 
really trying to Grapple with 

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and get that that visibility. 
So that that's that's a lot of a

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lot of the work we're doing with
the big, big fmcg brands at the 

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moment is trying to understand 
where that head room is and 

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where that Cliff Beyond which if
they price it so high that it's 

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just going to demand is just 
going to fall off a cliff. 

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So yeah really Really, really 
anxious anxious times. 

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Sure sure. 
Yeah. 

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I mean, I really like the 
example, Matt, just gave, which 

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is, you know, our brains have 
been conditioned to see over the

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last couple of years, to think 
about pricing, in terms of 

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always going up right pricing 
increases but you know, and so 

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on and so forth. 
But I think some of the work 

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that Matt's doing helping 
companies, understand, you know,

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price pack architecture what 
what what is that offering that 

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can still be affordable. 
For the consumers that they're 

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squeezed out there, you know, 
that's, that's really important 

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and that, you know, switching to
what we do. 

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You know, one of the things I'm 
very excited about this, you 

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know, we thought about what can 
we do for those smaller firms. 

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May be a start-up, maybe someone
below five million dollars in 

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revenue. 
And, you know, we introduced 

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this kind of packaged offering, 
which is, you know, a small and 

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medium business pricing power 
Workshop. 

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It's something where we go in 
for, you know, up to a work day.

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You know, it's usually a little 
less because people can only 

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absorb so much pricing talk at 
the time and, you know, really 

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as opposed to, you know, giving 
some sort of canned that core 

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something like that. 
We actually take the time to 

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understand that small business, 
you know, we run a Google form 

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survey ahead of time to, you 
know, think about their specific

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industry, their specific 
problems. 

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So, you know, meet them where 
they're at with. 

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Customized advice that we can 
give in a compressed period of 

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time together with some of the 
Frameworks and tools that would 

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help them. 
And you know they can have that 

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for a pretty nominal fee that is
you know when a completely 

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different Universe from what 
Theo typical work in the space 

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charges charges and you know 
it's very interesting. 

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We've been able to serve with 
that anybody from you know 

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smaller couple million dollars 
in Revenue. 

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Professional Services firms to 
startups inside and outside 

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larger companies. 
And so you know there's there's 

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there's clearly a demand for 
that walk before you run product

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and you know for many many 
businesses who are just looking 

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to get off to the ground and do 
something about pricing in an 

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educated fashion, 80% of the 
battle is helping them gain that

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conviction and something. 
They don't need more than just 

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this, you know, fairly small 
bite and if that gets them to 

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conviction and enough 
information and expertise to 

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take that 80/20 action and their
business, that's a fantastic 

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outcome. 
Now, I want to get both of 

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y'all's opinions on this next 
question, as well, and your 

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opinion is democratizing access,
not cannibalizing, the 

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higher-value business. 
Just speaking from epic con 

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joints perspective. 
So you know our USP is rapid 

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conjoint surveys. 
You know, I'm very cost 

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effective rates. 
So what wine is you know, though

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and this was my experience when 
I used to commission, conjoint 

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studies back when I was heading,
heading a pricing. 

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You know, you to gauge a 
research agency or consulting 

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firm could take up to two to 
three months to do, one 

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conjoint, depending on the 
sector you're in. 

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Arguably, the results are 
redundant at that point. 

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So you know, many of these 
clients have multiple products 

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and multiple markets previously,
you would only get one shot at a

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conjoint. 
You would only the finance, the 

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CFO would give you, you know, 
one shot, one budget to to run 

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one conjoint study the risk with
that is So many. 

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So many questions where pile 
into that one conjoint study, 

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that, you know, the results were
arguably diluted when they were 

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eventually provided what we've 
done by democratizing this 

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access to content. 
Particularly conjoint, is we 

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allow companies of all sizes to 
run conjoint really quickly as 

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of when the business need arises
and that business he could be. 

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New product launch a new service
launched a price increases 

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assessing price increases 
evaluating a compare competitor 

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risk whether they're the launch 
a new product or they've 

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launched a very impressed 
promotion. 

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So by enabling them to, to apply
rapid, conjoint surveys to 

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Myriad of use cases has really 
that from our Perspective has 

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opened up so many more revenue 
streams beyond the typical. 

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It's a new product launch. 
Let's let's run a conjoint 

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studies. 
It's going to take two to three 

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months. 
Of course not. 

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Absolute Fortune. 
Now we do it within two to three

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days at a fraction of a fraction
of the cost. 

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So and and that, that message is
really sinking in. 

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To the point we have we have 
clients now purchasing that 

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multinational companies 
purchasing Pax and really using 

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those all over the world to run 
quick. 

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Conjoint studies, to answer 
these critical product, pricing 

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promotion questions. 
I love that print in, it's 

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actually spot on because, you 
know, sometimes when I was 

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thinking about, you know, pray 
research studies, you know, 

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conjoint analysis. 
I think one of the concerns 

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always was because there's a 
limited amount of actions or 

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variables that you can insert in
any one particular study before 

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it becomes, you know too complex
or potentially inconclusive 

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etcetera. 
I always had this question in 

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the back of my head you know 
what happens if you need a 

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second or a third to really nail
all the angles of what you need 

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and you know like Matt said, you
know before when both from a 

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timing and a cost standpoint 
that Have been a pretty horrible

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compounding. 
That was terrifying, right? 

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And I think a lot of people who 
understood that risk stayed away

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whereas now with some of the 
work he's doing and others like 

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him, it's a lot more realistic. 
You know, from our standpoint, 

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the cannibalizing risk. 
I mean, of course the pricing we

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think about that all the time 
when we advise our clients and, 

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you know, for example, for us 
we're very clear, of course, our

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pro bono work is virtually 100% 
for nonprofits. 

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And we have a selection criteria
set for with which nonprofits 

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can qualify. 
And even the small and medium 

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business Workshop is clearly 
delineate. 

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The limited to, you know, less 
than 5 million dollar Revenue 

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companies and we basically do 
only up to three of those a 

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quarter. 
So we put pretty clear, limits 

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around, you know, how much in 
Whom that that work is is doable

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and who's eligible and certainly
we understand that, you know, 

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the hope is that some of these 
entities grow down the road to 

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actually succeed and become 
clients in, you know, the more 

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sweet spot type of projects that
we do with the majority of our 

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time for larger clients. 
Okay, good. 

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Thank you. 
Well explain. 

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Thank you. 
Now, let me ask you this, you 

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know, knowing that both you guys
care deeply about this. 

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How does knowing each other help
you balance this against other 

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00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:35,100
priorities. 
Well look, I mean Robert really 

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00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:41,500
admire what Roberts doing and, 
you know, diverting is valuable 

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00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:47,500
time and effort to for pro bono 
cases with charity work and what

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00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:54,400
not we I guess I what I like to 
do in terms of giving back is, 

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you know, going to academic 
institutions. 

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So not so long ago, I was in the
Copenhagen Business School. 

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Cool. 
And, you know, educating them on

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on the benefits of conjoint 
analysis and the the intricacies

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that can't can kind of merge but
you know. 

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So I do not quite right. 
I always like to, you know, take

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a step out from behind the the 
desk and kind of you know, go 

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00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:34,600
get into Academia. 
Classrooms and share and share 

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00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,800
that knowledge and share. 
Share my passion for pricing it 

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because, you know, I'm fanatical
about it being as I think I said

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stars as the most important p in
the marketing mix and it's so 

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00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,900
underrated. 
And anyone coming up with any 

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00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:55,700
kind of a business degree or, 
you know, economics degree or 

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00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:58,200
any, any screams going into 
business? 

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Really, really needs to be aware
of. 

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This. 
So, so that's how I try and do 

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00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,700
is, you know, in an academic 
context spread. 

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But also, as I said in the in 
the in the startup communities 

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as well, the incubators and the 
Hobbes, as I mentioned, it's a 

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big blind spot for a lot of 
companies. 

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So I like, you know, I like to 
see them leveraging leveraging 

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those that knowledge and pricing
skills that We impart in these 

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lectures and workshops, it's, 
that's hugely rewarding. 

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And I feel like I mentioned 
already a couple of different 

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00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:47,400
places where kind of knowing 
math or the work he's doing, you

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00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:55,100
know, makes either easier or 
more realistic to offer some of 

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this kind of expertise and make 
it more accessible to you know, 

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entities that ugly couldn't 
afford it. 

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00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:07,000
And so on I'd also say, you 
know, we're we're social animals

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and you know, because so much of
pricing is focused on, you know,

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ultimately helping clients be 
more profitable, Financial 

358
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:18,600
metrics Financial 
accomplishment. 

359
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,700
I think there's there's comfort 
and partnership and you know, 

360
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some degree of kinship and 
knowing there are other people 

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00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,800
who care about this other side 
of the equations. 

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00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:36,300
So the equation and, you know, 
it's been just lovely knowing 

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00:24:36,300 --> 00:24:41,700
math and what he's doing. 
And I think he's powering a lot 

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00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:48,800
of Ability Beyond his own firm 
for other people to, to promote 

365
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:52,800
a smaller companies. 
And the democratizing of this 

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00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:58,200
access We'll also want to thank 
you both for joining us and 

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00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,400
spearheading this conversation 
today. 

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00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,100
Before we depart would you guys 
mind sharing with the listeners 

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00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:09,200
where they can find more of your
material or where they can find 

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00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,800
any of your resources robber? 
I'll let you go first and then 

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00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:18,400
Matthew, all right, 12 stress, 
you've got Catalyst.com /sm. 

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Be like small medium business, 
is where we have information 

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00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,700
about our small me. 
IAM business Workshop that they 

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00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:28,900
mentioned. 
And of course the broader 

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00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:33,800
website has information about 
our pro bono nonprofit. 

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00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,700
So that's always the first place
to start. 

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00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,300
Yeah. 
Similarly, I think conjoint.com,

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00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,400
just click the, let's meet 
button. 

379
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:48,300
Happy more than happy to have a 
chat explore. 

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00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,000
You know, any pricing questions.
People might have a kind of 

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00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,100
specifically conjoint. 
Yeah. 

382
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,200
Yeah, happy to do that or on 
LinkedIn. 

383
00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:02,000
We company website up there and,
and obviously my personal 

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00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:04,700
profile to. 
So, either way, I'll be happy to

385
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:07,900
have a chat with anybody, okay? 
I appreciate that. 

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00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:09,800
Whether you are so much for 
listening to me. 

387
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,100
Until next time, we will see you
all later. 

388
00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:13,300
Have a good one. 
Thank you. 

389
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,100
Thanks for having us.