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Hello, everyone. 
Very good day and welcome to the

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PPS podcast. 
I'm Kevin Mitchell from 

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Professional Pricing Society and
today we are going to explore a 

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topic that's a little bit 
different from our usually 

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pricing focused revenue manage 
focus discussions, but one that 

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we feel is very, very important 
for the PPS community. 

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So today we're going to actually
be talking about perfectionism. 

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As pressing professionals, we 
are expected to be perfect all 

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the time. 
We have to make precise, 

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data-driven decisions and make 
sure that everything is exactly 

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right. 
And all of that pressure can be 

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overwhelming. 
So sometimes we have 

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perfectionist tendencies that 
slow us down. 

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It can be stressful and that can
limit our innovation. 

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We probably have all heard the 
adage that sometimes perfect can

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be the enemy of the darn good. 
Enough for right now. 

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So with that, I'm very excited 
for our discussion today. 

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Our guest today is Janelle 
Villiers. 

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Janelle is an author, a coach, 
she's the founder of Janelle 

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Villiers Partnerships, and she's
going to share her expertise on 

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how we can overcome 
perfectionism by addressing 

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toxic thinking, shame and 
imposter syndrome. 

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So today we're going to talk 
about how we can embrace 

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authenticity, build resilience 
and move forward towards our 

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personal and our professional 
goals with a lot more 

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self-awareness and a lot more 
compassion. 

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So we're going to be talking 
about developing A mindset 

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that's going to help us thrive. 
And we're going to go a little 

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bit beyond pricing strategy 
today, but we are going to talk 

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about some things that 
definitely have a good Venn 

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diagram overlap with revenue 
management and pricing as well. 

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So with that, Janelle, welcome 
to our podcast today. 

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We are so happy to have you. 
Thank you so much for having me 

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and I'm truly honored to be able
to have the discussion with you.

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I, I hope that it provides a lot
of value for you and the 

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listeners. 
I'm really excited. 

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All right. 
I'm sure that it will and we are

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very glad that you're with us of
course as well. 

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So have a couple questions for 
you that we have pre selected 

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from our audience here and one 
of them is Janelle. 

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Perfectionism is something that 
many professionals struggle 

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with, but often it flies under 
the radar. 

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From your experience, how does 
perfectionism show up in the 

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workplace and what are some of 
the signs that a pricing 

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professional, a revenue 
management professional, might 

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be struggling with the concept 
of trying to be perfect and 

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everything around perfectionism?
I love this question, it's one 

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of my favorites. 
I think there's some people who 

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either are in denial about their
perfectionism or I think that 

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being a perfectionist means 
like, it's a good thing, right? 

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They almost like wear it as a 
badge of honor. 

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And so in between those two, 
there are a lot of people who 

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are like, I don't know, am I, is
this something that I may like 

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identify with? 
And so I have a 5 questions that

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I'm going to put out there for, 
for you and the audience. 

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And the answers are either going
to be A yes, always, B 

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sometimes, C rarely, or D no, 
never. 

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So, first question, have you 
ever felt a deep sense of 

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embarrassment or humiliation 
when others witness a mistake or

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failure that you've made? 
Yes, always, sometimes, rarely. 

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No Never question 2. 
Do you often avoid taking risks 

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or trying new things because you
fear judgment or ridicule from 

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others 3. 
Have you ever found it difficult

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to share your achievements or 
accomplishments with others due 

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to a fear of being seen as 
boastful or arrogant? 

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4 Do you frequently compare 
yourself to others, focusing on 

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their successes or positive 
attributes and feeling 

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inadequate or inferior as a 
result? 

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And lastly, when faced with 
criticism or negative feedback, 

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do you tend to internalize it 
and feel a deep sense of shame 

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or unworthiness? 
I don't know about for you, 

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Kevin, but I know for me, the 
first time that I was asked 

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those questions, I was saying 
A&B for like all of them. 

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Yeah, I would agree. 
I have a lot of A's and B's. 

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I do not think I have a single D
from amongst your five 

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questions. 
I would concur on an awful lot 

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of that. 
Well, for you and those who are 

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also trying to take stock of 
those questions, I just want to 

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say welcome to identifying 
yourself as a perfectionist. 

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You are not alone. 
And that's number one. 

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I just want to put that out 
there. 

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This is not a phenomenon that 
exists where in in isolation. 

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And I think having a 
conversation around this is one 

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of the first steps that we can 
do to changing our mindset 

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without, you got to name it 
attainment, right? 

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So if you don't, if you're not 
aware that this is even 

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happening for you, then you 
can't really progress. 

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So number one, I think those 
questions are really helpful and

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identifying something that you 
might be struggling with that 

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you didn't even know was being a
part of your life or kind of 

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like your your mode of 
operation, like behind the 

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scenes subconsciously even. 
Interesting. 

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And what's also interesting I 
think with that is when you look

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at the questions, even though 
they're very different 

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questions, when we talk about, 
you know, comparison to others, 

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how we deal with negative 
feedback and the other things 

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there are the questions are very
different. 

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But I feel with a lot of us, 
there would be a tendency to 

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have very similar answers 
throughout those five questions,

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which might get down to the 
point that you were trying to 

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make where this is something 
that we definitely do have to 

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deal with. 
Also, I'm thinking off the top 

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of my head that in a lot of 
cases within pricing, within 

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revenue management, the answers 
that we come up with can be a 

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number. 
It can be a dollar amount, a 

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euro amount, a yen amount or 
whatever. 

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And numbers are always 
interesting because typically 

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you can have a difference of 
opinion on connotation versus 

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denotation or something like 
that. 

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But generally a number is either
right or wrong. 

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So there's that extra element of
pressure on this has to be 

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perfect because I put a number 
out there, I put a price out 

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there, I put a contract out 
there to my largest customer. 

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And if it is not 100% right, 
then that means it might be seen

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as 100% wrong. 
So another question in pricing 

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and revenue management where all
of our decisions basically 

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directly impact a company's 
revenue, which means jobs, which

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means people salaries, which 
means people bonuses. 

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We have this constant pressure 
as we were talking about to get 

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it right. 
So in your view, how can 

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perfectionist tendencies affect 
decision making and a 

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professional's ability to 
execute effectively? 

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Analysis paralysis immediately, 
right? 

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You're thinking analysis 
paralysis for if you have a 

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managerial role, you may see 
some of the people on your team 

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and think, are they 
procrastinating? 

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Like what's happening, right? 
You might see it might look like

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that to you on the outside, but 
really it's analysis paralysis. 

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It's this fear of getting it 
wrong. 

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A lot of times when people are 
identifying in their 

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perfectionist thinking, there's 
the identification part is 

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what's key to fail, to be wrong,
to fail is, is there's now an 

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identification of no, I made a 
wrong decision. 

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It is I am wrong. 
I am a failure instead of this 

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thing that I did failed. 
It is an identification of self 

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and that to me is the most 
important thing. 

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It's one of the things that 
that's one of the reasons why 

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I'm so passionate about this 
topic. 

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Because if you, if you identify 
yourself as the as a failure 

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instead of just recognizing a 
decision you made or something 

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you did was wrong. 
Do you know how many dreams that

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kills? 
I mean, yes, decisions and you 

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know, moving forward and 
movement, yes, but like 

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ultimately, like trying new 
things and being innovative. 

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All, all that is dead in the 
water because you now are 

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identifying yourself as a 
failure. 

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You're never going to move 
forward and move past that. 

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So for me, this is very, I'm 
very passionate about this 

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because of this factor. 
It's the identification of being

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a failure instead of 
recognizing, oh, it's a decision

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that I made. 
And I would say a lot of it 

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comes from top down. 
It's a culture that you see from

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the top. 
If the expectation by those at 

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the very top is that you always 
are going to do something right,

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then of course everybody else is
going to be an analysis 

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paralysis and scared to even try
things new. 

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I think, I mean, not to get too 
ahead of myself, but I really 

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think the key is is to create a 
culture in which people 

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recognize that it's OK to get 
something wrong because we've 

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built in structures where we 
can, we can pivot, we can 

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navigate, create a plan A, a 
Plan B. 

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Maybe you have based on all the 
data that you've been looking 

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at, all the research that you've
done. 

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This is the most likely thing. 
But if not, then we can quickly 

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move to the next idea or the 
next thing. 

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So it's not you, it's it's a 
learning process, the learning 

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what went wrong by the wrong 
decision, the wrong price given,

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the wrong number given only is 
data that we can now take and 

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learn from that. 
So that way we can quickly move 

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to what might be closer to the 
right number or, or indices. 

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It's not a, it's not a 
proclamation as to who you are 

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right. 
It's, it's just you're receiving

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information. 
So that way you can move on. 

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And OK, so if that's not 
correct, then let me see. 

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Like maybe I wasn't looking at 
it the right way. 

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Maybe there's some other thing 
that we need to look focus on to

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head us in the right direction. 
Understood. 

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So when we talk about analysis 
paralysis, we can kind of get 

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into a situation where as you 
mentioned, we don't think or 

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sometimes we do think, but 
perhaps we should not think and 

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we need to get away from I'm 
right versus I'm wrong versus 

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this decision, this process, 
this standard was perhaps more 

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correct or less correct that it 
could have been. 

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And we will adjust and get 
better for next time. 

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So understand that even though 
we do internalize it and that's 

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a toxic way of thinking that 
really it's about the outcomes 

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and about reaching a better 
outcome there. 

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And it shouldn't be so much of a
personal impact on who we are as

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an individual. 
It's just a one small facet of 

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it in doing our jobs that we're 
trying to move forward. 

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And when we talk about toxic 
thinking, and this is something 

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that we've touched on and 
mentioned a couple times, so for

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our listeners who might be stuck
in a cycle of analysis 

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paralysis, of overanalyzing, of 
second guessing themselves, what

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are some practical other steps 
that they can take to interrupt 

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those patterns? 
So I have three steps. 

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It's a three-step framework that
I give often. 

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I do like workshops on this. 
Number one, we have to all 

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identify and claim that we are 
not perfect, whatever this idea 

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is of perfect that we have also 
PS like built in our mind, we've

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created what a person, a perfect
person is, but it's not real, 

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right? 
So whatever that is, we just 

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have to accept that I am 
imperfect and beautiful because 

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of that and just as worthy 
because of that. 

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Not that, not that you're now 
less valuable or have less 

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innate worthy just because you 
have imperfections. 

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No, no, no, I am. 
I'm imperfect and that's what 

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makes me like a great person. 
Some it's OK, people can hang 

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out with me with all of my 
imperfections. 

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Step one, Step 2 is gaining 
resiliency from shame based 

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thinking. 
And I have a framework 

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specifically for this because 
this is to me the most important

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and deepest dive that needs to 
take place. 

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Bernie Brown was probably one of
the most famous shame 

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researchers has this saying 
where when perfectionism is in 

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the passenger seat, shame is 
driving the car. 

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Interesting. 
So really quickly the difference

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between guilt and shame. 
Guilt is I'm sorry I made a 

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mistake. 
Shame is I'm sorry I am a 

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mistake. 
So if you have shame driving the

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car and it's basically thinking 
if I can say it perfectly, act 

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perfectly, do it perfectly, that
will shield me from the 

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criticism from and judgement of 
other people. 

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But here's what the reality we 
try and shoot after this perfect

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magical thing that's not real. 
And guess what we miss. 

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And who does the judgement and 
criticism come from? 

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Ourselves. 
Ourselves. 

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Exactly. 
And so see, this just proves it.

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00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,240
I'm a failure. 
I'm not worthy, I'm not good. 

230
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:40,720
No one's going to want to be 
around me. 

231
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,680
I'm unlovable, whatever. 
All of the things, right, all of

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the things that you're thinking.
And so This is why shame is the 

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00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,760
driver because that's those are 
the shame based thinking 

234
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thoughts. 
But if we need to gain 

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resiliency for the shame based 
thinking to kind of bounce back 

236
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,880
from that or and then the third 
thing is radical self 

237
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compassion. 
There are many ways in which we 

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can do this, but a lot of it is 
just includes being present in 

239
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the moment, recognizing you're 
doing the best that you can with

240
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,360
all that you have and you're you
made the best decision in the in

241
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:16,000
the moment. 
Sorry, this reminds me this was 

242
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not a part of her questions, but
it's still reminds me of a book 

243
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,160
that I read. 
Essentially, it's how to make, 

244
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how to make decisions when you 
have the least amount of 

245
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,720
information available to you, 
how to make good decisions. 

246
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,600
I think it'd be really good for 
for this particular audience. 

247
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:36,560
It is written by a professional 
poker player and she describes, 

248
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,960
I mean, in poker you have 
limited information and how do 

249
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:41,520
you decide one thing over the 
other. 

250
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,920
And one of the things I love 
that she points out in this book

251
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is people look at the results of
a decision and think that 

252
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because of the results of the 
decision, the decision was bad, 

253
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,080
right? 
So given all the data that you 

254
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,000
have, you think, OK, I'm going 
to, you know, whatever, swing 

255
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,640
the bat, make a decision to give
this particular price, speak to 

256
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,520
my child this way, whatever, 
right? 

257
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,240
Like you make a decision based 
on the limited data that you 

258
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,960
have and the result turns out 
your child is like, you don't 

259
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,320
love me. 
How could you say that to me? 

260
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,880
You swing the bat completely 
missed or you know, it's a foul 

261
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,200
or whatever. 
You, you make that decision with

262
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,320
the price and completely wrong, 
right? 

263
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,040
So now you have this result that
is in like bad, right? 

264
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,640
As everyone agrees this is a bad
result. 

265
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,720
Didn't like this, but that 
doesn't necessarily mean the 

266
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,760
decision was bad given all of 
the different factors that were 

267
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,280
around. 
You were making the best 

268
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,960
decision with what you had, and 
that's OK. 

269
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,800
I think we, again, it's one of 
those things where the self 

270
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,400
compassion comes in. 
It's like, man, I made the best 

271
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,280
decision with what I had. 
It didn't go the way that I 

272
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,480
wanted. 
The result wasn't what I was 

273
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,920
hoping for. 
But what can I gather from this?

274
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,680
How can I learn? 
How can I grow? 

275
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,840
How can I move forward based on 
what just occurred? 

276
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,280
But yes, it's that idea. 
It's the idea of self compassion

277
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,960
is recognizing you're we're all 
here just doing the best that we

278
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,280
can and giving yourself grace 
when the result isn't what you 

279
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,280
expected. 
All right, so just to go over 

280
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,000
the three things that you 
mentioned there. 

281
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:18,600
The first was to identify that 
we are not perfect and of course

282
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:23,520
we all know people, be they 
either in public life or in our 

283
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,840
personal groups who say that 
they are perfect and we know 

284
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,280
that that is an outright lie. 
Our second one was to make sure 

285
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,440
to gain resilience from shame 
based thinking. 

286
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,800
And one of the things that you 
mentioned there was think of it 

287
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:43,680
as I made a suboptimal decision.
I made a mistake versus I am a 

288
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,120
mistake, which are completely, 
completely different when you 

289
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,600
talked about shame versus guilt 
there as well. 

290
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,720
And the third was radical self 
compassion as well. 

291
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,520
But one thing, Janelle, that you
mentioned when you talked about 

292
00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:00,240
those 3 is you really 
concentrated on the second one 

293
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,560
of those gaining resilience from
shame based thinking. 

294
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,120
So if we talk about shame, if we
talk about imposter syndrome, 

295
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,400
and I know that a lot of our 
members have mentioned me, when 

296
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,200
they get great new jobs, they 
feel like impostors. 

297
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,360
You know, maybe they were an 
analyst. 

298
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,320
And the next thing you know, 
they have progressed and they're

299
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,960
leading A-Team. 
And imposter syndrome is one 

300
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,040
that I hear all the time from 
our members. 

301
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,960
So if we talk about shame, if we
talk about chain based thinking,

302
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,840
overcoming shame and we talked 
about the imposter syndrome, 

303
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,880
these are two things that 
perfectionism tends to feed on. 

304
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,600
So in our field in revenue 
management, when you're 

305
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,120
constantly presenting strategies
to leadership, these can 

306
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,840
definitely creep in. 
Imposter syndrome can be all 

307
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,880
over the place. 
So what are some ways that 

308
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,600
people can shift their mindset 
and approach these feelings 

309
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,240
with, as you mentioned, more 
self compassion, more empathy, 

310
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,040
more caring for themselves 
internally? 

311
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,360
How can we deal with some of 
these shifts and some of these 

312
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,800
feelings that can come up? 
The framework that I have built 

313
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,119
around this, I have an acronym 
called A life for it. 

314
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:09,800
So the A stands for awareness 
first. 

315
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,880
We just need to have awareness 
around what's happening. 

316
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,040
Fantastic. 
Congratulations, you're all 

317
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,520
aware. 
Step 1 and #2 is for L for life 

318
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,560
and you need to look within 
because that leads to I, which 

319
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:29,720
is identify your triggers. 
In order to do that looking 

320
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,280
within, we have to look to our 
past. 

321
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,600
Where were the messages that we 
received or when? 

322
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,800
It really is really the better 
question, when were the when did

323
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,280
we receive the messages? 
Typically it's in our childhood 

324
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,040
that we weren't good enough, 
that we were unworthy, etcetera.

325
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:48,880
This these messages could seem 
super benign, but we don't even 

326
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,360
recognize that they if without 
being addressed, they can 

327
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,440
continue on through adulthood. 
So these are things like you got

328
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,000
all A's and 1B on your report 
card. 

329
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,080
You get home and your parents 
are like, but the B though, 

330
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:03,680
right? 
Like they only focus on the B, 

331
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,040
not not all the A's, right? 
And a child could interpret this

332
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:12,080
as unless I'm perfect, I am 
unworthy of love, affection, 

333
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,400
attention, etcetera. 
Another one that I think is 

334
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,920
interesting is and again, it's 
it's benign, but sometimes a 

335
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:26,520
parent will not talk about what 
their child is good at because 

336
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,040
they think like their head will 
get too big. 

337
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,200
So if they're really good at 
sports, they won't really tell 

338
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:31,240
them. 
They'll just say like, oh, they 

339
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,920
keep getting better. 
Or if they're good looking or 

340
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,840
attractive, they won't tell them
that they're beautiful or 

341
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,560
handsome. 
Or if they're smart, they won't 

342
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,240
really tell them that they're 
smart because they're like, oh, 

343
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,280
well, they already know that. 
I don't need to like, you know, 

344
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,000
make their head big. 
And so the kid doesn't hear it 

345
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,280
though then they don't hear it 
from like the people that are, 

346
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:50,680
you know, they would expect to 
hear it from. 

347
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,520
And so they might grow up 
thinking like, oh, I must not be

348
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,680
beautiful, I must not be smart 
or I must not be really good, 

349
00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,960
whatever that is. 
And again, if I was, then I 

350
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,680
would get the love attention, 
etcetera, etcetera. 

351
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:06,720
Now you can imagine there are 
some messages that might be 

352
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,920
stronger than others and you 
would be correct. 

353
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,600
So I'll just, I'm just going to 
list all of those and I will 

354
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,840
list the three strongest one is,
or I should say the two 

355
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,320
strongest. 
The second strongest might be 

356
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,240
surprising, but it's actually 
emotional and physical abuse. 

357
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,640
This is probably very obvious, 
right? 

358
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,280
Like, oh, I must be bad. 
Something must be wrong with me 

359
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,840
because they wouldn't hit me 
that way or they wouldn't say 

360
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,120
those mean things to me if I 
were good enough, right? 

361
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,480
So that's the message that child
could interpret as but actually 

362
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:43,120
even stronger than that is 
divorce being put in the like 

363
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:46,040
Child Protective Services and 
things like that or being 

364
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,320
adopted. 
And there is a strong 

365
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,240
abandonment message that could 
be received. 

366
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,720
And the idea behind that is if 
or the message that could be 

367
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,720
received or interpreted is 
something must be wrong with me 

368
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,600
like to the core, because 
otherwise my mom or my dad would

369
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,800
want to be with me. 
Even if it's divorced, they 

370
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,000
would want to be around me. 
They would want to like, you 

371
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,840
know, be with around me. 
So. 

372
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,600
Obviously something is wrong 
with me and then even further so

373
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,360
I can't let other people get to 
know the real me because if they

374
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,560
did they would abandoned me to 
looking within and identifying 

375
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,400
your triggers. 
What are those things that were 

376
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,400
said to you when you were 
younger that could possibly 

377
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,520
still be existing today as an 
adult that you just never 

378
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,440
addressed once? 
We are here now. 

379
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,480
We've identified our triggers. 
F is find your good mirrors. 

380
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,760
These are the individuals who in
your life who can hold up a 

381
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,080
mirror to you and remind you of 
who you really are. 

382
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,760
I love this analogy. 
This is an analogy from Tim 

383
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,360
Fletcher. 
Shout out to Tim Fletcher if he 

384
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:49,360
ever hears this. 
He's a pastor out from Canada 

385
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,800
who talked about good mirrors. 
I love his analogy. 

386
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,440
So you all know funny mirrors, 
right? 

387
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,840
When you go to a like a fun 
house, right? 

388
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,080
And like you look at a mirror 
and it totally distorts you. 

389
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,200
Now imagine somebody who has had
a lot of shame based thinking 

390
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,280
from when they were little. 
And the only mirror in their 

391
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,800
house is a is a funny mirror. 
So they see themselves as three 

392
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,560
feet wide by three feet tall, 
but it's the only mirror that 

393
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,240
they have in their house. 
So that's that's what they have 

394
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,160
to see themselves as, right? 
Like they're like, yeah, I'm 3 

395
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,480
feet tall by three feet wide. 
That's it. 

396
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,760
And then they go over to a 
friend's house and the friend 

397
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,400
has a normal mirror and they see
themselves and look, look at 

398
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,800
this. 
I'm actually 5-7 and slender, 

399
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,040
right? 
Like, and they look at the 

400
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,560
mirror and they're like, friend,
something's wrong with your 

401
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,160
mirror. 
And the friend is like, no, no, 

402
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,160
the mirror is fine. 
Like that's what you look like. 

403
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,000
No, no, no, I am three by three.
This is not right. 

404
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,720
And then the other friend's 
like, no, right. 

405
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,240
Like trying to convince you. 
And this is what it's like when 

406
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,440
you have Shane Bay's thinking 
you only had that one mirror. 

407
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,960
And so it's sometimes it takes a
while to recognize who you 

408
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,160
really are for that reason. 
But you need those friends. 

409
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,920
You need those friends who are 
your good mirrors, the friends 

410
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,800
who can show them, pull up a 
mirror to you and say you are 

411
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,760
amazing. 
Look at all that you've come 

412
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,880
through and you've not only 
survived, you thrived. 

413
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:13,920
Which gets me to E for empathy. 
Empathy is the kryptonite to 

414
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,760
shame. 
Shame cannot exist where empathy

415
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,840
persists and true empathy is 
only provided when you share and

416
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,200
you're vulnerable with people 
and you tell them what's going 

417
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,520
on. 
How else are they going to be 

418
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,360
able to show, you know, be a 
good mirror for you and show you

419
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,600
who you really are if you're not
vulnerable and you share like 

420
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,600
these really crazy thoughts that
are going on. 

421
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,320
But I get it, it's hard. 
It's hard to be vulnerable, 

422
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,920
especially when in a society 
that tells you don't do that 

423
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,560
right? 
Like, being seen as weak is like

424
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:44,960
the worst thing that you want to
do, right? 

425
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,560
And I think a lot of people 
associate vulnerability with 

426
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,320
weakness when the truth is it 
requires a great deal of courage

427
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,520
to be vulnerable. 
And honestly, the empathy that 

428
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,280
you receive from that not only 
kills the shame, but then also 

429
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,360
creates community, creates 
authenticity. 

430
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,440
You are now being your true self
and being accepted as such. 

431
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,120
Thank you for the explanation. 
I like your discussion of 

432
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,120
awareness of how we need to look
within, of how we need to 

433
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:16,640
identify the triggers which 
might be from the past that 

434
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,120
affects us, how we can find good
mirrors. 

435
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:25,440
And of course empathy being the 
E in that, in your word there. 

436
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,920
But also from our members 
perspective. 

437
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,640
I know that empathy and sympathy
are very, very important because

438
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,560
we have internal pressures and 
external pressures. 

439
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,760
We have to deal with challenges 
from within our own 

440
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,520
organizations and our own teams,
also with our marketplace, with 

441
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,760
our customer base. 
And also we are in the rather 

442
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,320
unique position, particularly 
right now where there is a lot 

443
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,080
of change from a macroeconomic 
perspective and a lot of 

444
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,440
progress. 
Also right now within pricing, 

445
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,640
within revenue management, we 
have AI, artificial intelligence

446
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,640
taking over some tasks and doing
some things, creating new, new 

447
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:13,920
models, shifting markets. 
We have from a April 2025 

448
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,920
perspective, we have tariffs 
which change everything that we 

449
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,600
do and change our cost 
structures, our customer 

450
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,040
structures, our profitability 
and a lot of things there. 

451
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,520
So we have a lot going on within
our little part of the business 

452
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,080
world. 
So how would you recommend that 

453
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,120
we look at embracing progress 
over perfection in order to stay

454
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:40,360
agile and in order to be an 
innovator instead of getting 

455
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:43,480
stuck in our old ways of 
thinking? 

456
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,320
So spoiler alert, right? 
Like I saw some of these 

457
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,720
questions before and when I was 
thinking about this, I thought 

458
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,800
to myself, this is so 
interesting given the current 

459
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:59,960
climate, everybody's searching 
for certainty in an extremely 

460
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:07,960
uncertain, volatile moment of 
time and probably feeling a bit 

461
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,480
helpless in how you can navigate
through that. 

462
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,120
Like what can I do to make this 
more certain? 

463
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,680
Not just I mean like in your 
life, but also in your business,

464
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,280
in your in your job. 
And you might feel like you 

465
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,840
don't have agency in that. 
Like these are, these are just 

466
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,320
so many factors that are just 
out of one little person's 

467
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,680
control. 
And so I can understand that it 

468
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:38,600
must be extremely anxiety 
provoking. 

469
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,480
And God forbid if you are a 
perfectionist, there's like no 

470
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,440
way out of this at this point. 
It's like nothing's going to be 

471
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,080
right, people. 
Nothing's going to be right. 

472
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,720
So one of my thoughts was number
1. 

473
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,680
I think what we need is we do 
need more connection. 

474
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,280
I'm going to continue to 
advocate for more connection, 

475
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,760
more vulnerability, more 
collaboration of thoughts of 

476
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,360
thinking instead of I have. 
So that that means you must not 

477
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:08,320
have or I win, which means you 
must lose. 

478
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,400
Creating more win, win 
relationships where everybody is

479
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:14,760
winning, where everyone's on 
board. 

480
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:19,080
Honestly, right now that is 
revolutionary to even have a 

481
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,240
mindset that like, no, we can 
all win with, with a new idea or

482
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,320
a thought if we look at it a 
different way. 

483
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:31,080
And it might be again, it seems 
risky to, to do something in 

484
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:36,680
that way, but I also think it's 
just the more human way to do 

485
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:37,280
it. 
So it goes. 

486
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,120
I mean, let's think about AI, 
for example. 

487
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,480
AI takes the emotion out of all 
the data it receives and just 

488
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,080
gives you an output, a decision,
a number, etcetera. 

489
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,240
And then if it's wrong or the 
outcome of what it just said, it

490
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,960
doesn't go in the way that like 
we all hoped, it just collects 

491
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,760
that data, puts it back to 
itself, and then like spits out 

492
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,680
a new thing. 
So I think it's only going to it

493
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,960
just to me, it further 
demonstrates why it's so 

494
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:11,040
important to see outcomes, not 
as like you are a bad person or 

495
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,760
something is wrong with you, but
just information to take. 

496
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,120
And the quicker you can pivot, 
the quicker you can navigate 

497
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:21,200
your entire crew, your team, 
everybody to now move into this 

498
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:26,440
another, another direction is 
going to make you more nimble in

499
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,160
this in this frame that we're in
like this, this moment in time 

500
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,760
that we're in. 
Because it's easy to want to be 

501
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,760
conservative and to not do 
things that are risky because 

502
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:41,680
everything else just seems to be
all over the again, like it 

503
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,040
feels like we have no control 
over anything, but we do have 

504
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,640
control over is how we react to 
things and just just again, 

505
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,280
giving grace. 
I mean, we're going to have to 

506
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,920
be really human with each other 
and see each other, be empathic 

507
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,680
with each other, see each other 
as all just trying our best. 

508
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,600
And when it doesn't work out, if
a result is not what you want, 

509
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,720
the best thing that we can do, I
mean, it's to adopt AI tactics, 

510
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,360
but essentially like take the 
information as data and then 

511
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,200
move as a team thinking, OK, 
that didn't work. 

512
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,400
So how can we now pivot to this 
next direction, this new way of 

513
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,920
thinking, a new thought that can
just help us navigate through 

514
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,320
the time better? 
Understood. 

515
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:23,760
And yeah, that's very good 
advice. 

516
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,600
Thank you so much, Janelle. 
And really, there are a lot of 

517
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,640
things that you that you 
centered on, that you 

518
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,560
concentrated on, but empathy, 
sympathy, realizing the 

519
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,680
difference between shame and 
guilt, and realizing that a 

520
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,360
mistake does not mean that you 
are a mistake. 

521
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,400
It means a decision that may 
have been suboptimal there. 

522
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,800
So definitely appreciate that. 
And we're going to go ahead and 

523
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,440
wrap up before our listeners who
are looking to overcome 

524
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,960
perfectionism, to embrace 
authenticity, and to approach 

525
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,720
your work with greater 
confidence. 

526
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,120
I do think that Janelle's 
methods offer a great, 

527
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,120
compassionate, empathetic path 
forward. 

528
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,480
So, Janelle, thank you very much
for your time with us today and 

529
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,080
please share with our listeners 
how they can connect with you. 

530
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,480
Absolutely. 
So I am on all social media 

531
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,040
platforms. 
The best place to find me is 

532
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:23,520
probably Instagram. 
That's Janelle Janelle under 

533
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,200
score villi V as in Victor ILL 
i.e. 

534
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,960
I also have a YouTube channel 
Janelle Villiers partnerships or

535
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,960
part of the better way to look 
it up is called the other side 

536
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,120
podcast where I talk about the 
other side of mental health, how

537
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,320
we can build resiliency to 
things like shame based 

538
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,520
thinking. 
I also do a bit of coaching in 

539
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,560
terms of how to write books. 
So if that is also like in the 

540
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,280
back of your mind, like one day 
I'd like to write a book, I did 

541
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,960
give a lot of advice about how 
to do that too. 

542
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,360
Excellent. 
Well, thank you so much. 

543
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,720
Appreciate that and would 
definitely encourage our members

544
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,400
to reach out to Janelle with 
your questions and your search 

545
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,080
for insights there on some of 
the things that we talked about.

546
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,200
So thank you very much, Janelle.
And also for our members, I'm 

547
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,520
looking forward to seeing 
everyone in Dallas in May at our

548
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,160
conference. 
And also we will have other 

549
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,360
conferences with CPP workshops 
and a lot more will be in Las 

550
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,520
Vegas in October, will be in 
Barcelona in December. 

551
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,800
So look, look forward to seeing 
everybody there and also keep an

552
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,680
eye out for a lot of new 
information from our team about 

553
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,320
some of the things that we've 
been talking about today. 

554
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,960
We've got great information on 
AI and tariffs and lots of other

555
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,600
things for you and your team as 
well. 

556
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,120
But Janelle, thank you very, 
very much. 

557
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,080
It's been a pleasure having you 
with us today. 

558
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,760
And for our audience, thank you 
for tuning in. 

559
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,320
We will see you next time. 
Have a great day everyone.