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All right, hello and thank you 
all so much for joining us for 

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another episode of the 
Professional Pricing Society 

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podcast. 
My name is Terence and in 

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today's episode we have a very, 
very special guest with us, a 

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long time friend of PPS. 
Her name is Joanne Smith. 

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She is the President of Price to
Profits Consulting. 

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She is also an author of The 
Pricing and Profit Playbook, The

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Price Negotiation Playbook and 
Pricing in a Crisis. 

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She is the former DuPont head of
marketing, pricing and customer 

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loyalty and with more than 20 
years of global business 

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marketing and pricing expertise.
She now works with global 

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companies and chemical and and 
industrial industries to help 

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them develop world class pricing
and profit strategies, pricing 

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transformations and pricing 
improvements along with pricing 

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skills. 
Miss Joanne Smith, how are you 

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doing today? 
Oh, I'm doing just great, 

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Terence. 
Thanks for. 

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Good, good. 
We're also super excited to have

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you because I believe you'll be 
with us at our upcoming fall 

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conference in Las Vegas. 
Is that correct? 

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That's correct. 
I got a new workshop that I'm 

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introducing there. 
OK, good, good. 

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And this podcast is essentially 
going to be serving as a teaser 

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to the workshop, is that 
correct? 

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Yes, yes it is. 
OK. 

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All right. 
Today's title of this episode is

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Segmentation, Mastering the 
Hidden Challenges. 

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And let's just go ahead and jump
right into our conversation 

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today. 
You know, when it comes to 

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segmentation and when it comes 
to pricing and and just this 

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overall concept for business, 
why, why is doing segmentation 

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so important for any business in
your personal opinion? 

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Yeah. 
Actually, Terrence, it's like 

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the Holy Grail for pricers and 
marketers because it's through 

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segmentation that we can drive 
higher price and profits with 

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some segments and we can drive 
greater growth with all segments

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that we target. 
And here's the deal. 

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Across the world, across 
marketplaces, there are 

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customers that derive greater 
value from certain parts of our 

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offer or our service or our 
customer experience. 

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And there are certain groups 
that are willing to pay for some

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value and others that are not 
willing to pay. 

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And if we're going to be able to
one, attract the most growth, 

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then we have to have the right 
value offer and price point that

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aligns with those different 
groups. 

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And often there are those groups
that really value a lot of what 

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we bring. 
And perhaps today mostly we're 

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under pricing them right and we 
can get higher price when we 

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really understand their value 
and willingness to pay. 

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That's good. 
OK, good, good. 

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Now, you know, we kind of 
whenever why segmentation is so 

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important for a business, but 
are there different types that 

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you, you know, primarily focus 
on when it comes to 

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segmentation? 
Yeah, there's a lot of ways to 

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segment and most businesses 
should be doing multiple types 

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of segmentation. 
In the workshop at PPS, I'm 

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going to concentrate on some of 
the from simpler to a little 

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more complex yet more 
traditional segmentation all the

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way through customer needs based
segmentation, which I might 

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contend is the maybe the most 
powerful yet the most difficult.

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So if I think about what do I 
mean by simpler, they can be as 

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simple as how we segment based 
on customer size, a big customer

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from a mid size or a small 
customer or how do we segment 

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our product portfolio from our 
big fast movers high volume to 

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those custom ones or the tail 
slow moving low volume products.

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Or we can get a little bit and 
should be getting a little bit 

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more into what about regional 
differences? 

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Do we price different in Asia 
than Europe? 

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Do we price different in the 
United States on the East Coast 

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versus the West Coast? 
What about market or or 

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application, right. 
Some products that go into maybe

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aerospace probably have a far 
different value and price point 

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potential than if we sent that 
same product over into an 

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automobile end use. 
And then we'd go right into 

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channels. 
What about are you going direct 

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distributors, online channels? 
So those are the typical types 

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that I will deal with. 
And here's the thing, even the 

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most simple ones have some 
hidden pitfalls that companies 

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fall in and don't even realize 
they're not doing their optimal 

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segmentation. 
That's interesting, super 

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interesting. 
And you know, there's a bunch of

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different types of segmentations
just as you've just laid out for

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us and obviously the ones you 
primarily specialize in and work

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in. 
But you know, you you've said 

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before that customer needs based
segmentation is the most 

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powerful type of segmentation. 
And I assume this kind of goes 

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back into what you were just 
saying about, you know, is it is

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it worth entertaining the idea 
of pricing in different regions 

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or pricing in different parts of
the world? 

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You know, if you don't mind, 
please elaborate on, you know, 

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why. 
Why is customer needs based 

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segmentation so important and 
debatably the most powerful type

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of segmentation? 
Terrence, it's not just the most

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powerful, it is the most 
difficult. 

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So let me get back up and just 
speak to what it is, why it's 

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most difficult and then I'll 
jump into how powerful it is. 

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So needs based segmentation. 
It it exists whether we want to,

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you know, recognize it or not in
every single part of the world. 

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I can take a region, I can take 
a market segment in that region,

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I can take a product in that 
region. 

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And within that line there will 
be different needs based 

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segmentation. 
So typically there's a group 

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that one might call price 
buyers. 

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They are predominantly only 
paying or buying on lowest 

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price. 
There's other value groups that 

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might be buying you 
predominantly for all your 

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service and customer experience 
and hand holding. 

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And yet there may be another 
value segment that won't pay for

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any of that hand holding. 
But boy, do they want your most 

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unique or custom products. 
So those things exist. 

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We need to deal with them, but 
they are not measurable like the

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other types of segmentation, 
right? 

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I can easily measure whether a 
customer is big or small, 

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whether they are in Asia or 
North America, whether they're 

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in aerospace or automotive. 
But customer needs based is 

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subjective. 
We have to have a number of 

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different variables and things 
that we look at to try and place

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them into a cluster of like 
customers that we can treat 

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differently. 
So that makes it more difficult.

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But why is it so powerful is 
because we have far different 

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pricing power with these 
individual groups. 

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They absolutely have buying 
groups that use different 

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tactics against our salespeople 
and we need to be able to 

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counter their tactics, see 
through those tactics to really 

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understand what they value. 
Do they value us so that we make

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smart pricing decisions? 
In fact, when you look at a 

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pricing decision, I don't care 
what deal a salesperson comes up

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with it they're struggling on 
whether to discount or not. 

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I'd go right to try and 
understand the customer needs 

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based segmentation they would 
fall in, in order to be able to 

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help them understand whether 
they had the pricing power, 

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whether they should discount, if
they discount, what gives and 

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takes should they be getting. 
So very, very powerful and 

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fundamental to everything a 
pricer really ought to be 

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thinking about at a sales level 
in the deals to the more 

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advanced where we can actually 
help set them, maybe with good, 

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better, best offers or something
along that line. 

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OK, OK, wow. 
You know, and it's funny because

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this this is a topic I feel like
you especially of all people can

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really go in depth with. 
And you know, when you talk 

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about different types of 
segmentation and just generally 

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just pricing and, you know, 20 
years of expertise, you know, in

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this industry and in this field,
you know, you have a lot of 

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gems, a lot of insight and 
wisdom to give to others. 

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And it, which brings me to my 
next question. 

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You know, this workshop, in your
opinion, is it targeted for the 

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more experienced pricer, 
somebody who's kind of been been

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down the road for a while now 
and knows what they're doing? 

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Or is it more geared towards 
those who may be fresh into 

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their career of pricing and and 
beginner with beginning with 

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pricing resources? 
What would you say about this, 

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particularly regarding your your
workshop? 

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That's a great question. 
It's actually great for all 

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levels because beginners are 
going to learn how to do things 

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well and there's a number of 
segments, segmentation things 

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that they can very quickly get 
to implementing. 

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On the other hand, experienced 
folks are probably doing a lot 

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of the more traditional, maybe 
they can get deeper into the 

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more advanced, but often there 
are hidden pitfalls that really 

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play out and even the more 
advanced may not realize that 

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they are doing things that maybe
are less effective than they 

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think in in fact, I might just, 
you know, I go back to Terence, 

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you made some really nice 
comments about my experience and

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whatnot. 
But I think my experience having

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run this for 50 some businesses 
in DuPont for years is I bring 

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the practical approach versus 
the theoretical approach. 

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And it's in that practical 
approach is where we can uncover

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and solve for some of these 
pitfalls that I mentioned that 

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even more experienced buyers 
often fall into. 

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Yeah, pitfalls. 
I mean, I'm sure there's a 

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plethora, especially if we're 
not aware what, what would you 

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say is one of the biggest 
pitfalls or challenges that 

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maybe suppliers run into? 
OK. 

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So, right, you're absolutely 
right that there are a number of

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pitfalls, but maybe say the most
obvious and the bigger 1 might 

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be often when we set prices, we 
are looking at our historical 

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prices the last year or the last
several years. 

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And we're using that to really 
knuckle down into that fine 

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different segments and base that
path pricing to help inform 

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future pricing. 
Now here comes the rub. 

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Many times, if not most times, 
that historical pricing that we 

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have is not good pricing. 
And it might not be good because

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perhaps salespeople didn't have 
the skill or the confidence to 

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really price properly or 
equally. 

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They may have gotten no guidance
at all from a pricing or 

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marketing group or they may have
gotten poor guidance. 

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So now we've got all of this 
data that's subjective. 

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Is it good or is it bad and 
we're going to infer. 

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So we have to bring in not just 
take the data and move with it, 

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but to challenge every piece of 
that data and make adjustments 

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for when historically things 
were not done in the best way. 

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So that we actually come out 
with much smarter pricing 

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targets and floors by these 
varying segments. 

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And I'll just give you like a 
simple example here. 

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It's it's not unusual. 
I go into a business and I'll be

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doing the analysis and I'll look
at say customer size versus 

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pricing. 
And of course there'll be a 

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scatter all over the place by 
size and you expect the big 

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customers to have better pricing
than the small. 

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But when I really look at the 
median of different customer 

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size and the spread, it's not 
unusual that I see almost the 

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same spread across small 
customers as big customers. 

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And if somebody just took the 
medians and those price bands 

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and went ahead and set targets 
and floors, they might conclude 

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the small guys should be 5% 
higher than the big guys 'cause 

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they're looking at maybe poor 
data where they should be 

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saying, wow, that doesn't look 
right. 

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Why on earth are we given such 
good prices to so many of those 

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small customers? 
That whole segment needs to be 

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shifted up and then we're going 
to put in a higher bracket or 

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principal or rule for that 
group. 

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Somewhat, not fully, but 
somewhat switching gears here 

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because you mentioned the small 
business versus the larger 

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business and the smaller data. 
Does big data or AI help to 

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speed up or accelerate the 
ability to segment regardless of

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the size of a company? 
Yeah, the easier you have 

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availability of data and if 
you're lucky enough to have like

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a professional pricing system, 
you can get at analyzing your 

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data at so much faster and it's 
such a deeper granular level. 

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And then you also have the 
ability to manage it, you know, 

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at a more granular level. 
Now having said that, you can do

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every bit of this segmentation 
if you only have Excel 

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spreadsheets and you maybe are 
lucky enough to spend 23000 on a

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license for like a Tableau or 
Power BI to give you graphical 

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analysis. 
So you can do it. 

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But when you have these better 
systems and data, you're faster,

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you're more granular. 
But here's the deal. 

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Because of that, you're quicker 
to like, let's say get on a 

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train, but is that train going 
in the right direction or you 

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just quickly sending the sales 
team off in the wrong direction?

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So for AI people, you actually 
have more pitfalls that you have

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to worry about because you are 
more likely to get into a more 

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granular level of segmentation. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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I could give you a a, you know, 
a good example of a pitfall 

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there if you if you'd like. 
Sure, sure, please. 

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Yes. 
Yeah. 

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So in general, it's the are we 
getting so theoretical versus 

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practical in the segmentation 
that we do. 

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And boy, we don't want to fall 
on the theoretical side. 

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We have to get to a practical 
side because at the end of the 

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day, whatever pricing we set, 
sales has to understand it, has 

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to internalize it, believe it is
fair for them to implement it. 

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Not only to implement it, but to
actually be able to talk to a 

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customer. 
So the customer at the end of 

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the day feels that what they're 
being priced is fair, it's 

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trustworthy, it has integrity. 
So if we get too confusing, if I

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don't care how theoretical, if 
they can't simply understand it 

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and then remember it on the spot
with the customer and not have 

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to look up a spreadsheet that 
has 30,000 choices and we're 

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gonna, we're gonna lose it. 
The sales people will be 

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frustrated, right? 
They may completely ignore it 

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because they just don't 
understand it. 

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It's too much. 
And then they're gonna do their 

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own thing. 
And we haven't guided them or 

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they're gonna, they're going to 
do exactly what the number says 

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without being able to explain it
to the customer why that price 

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point is. 
And that is trust with the 

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customer. 
So that's probably the biggest 

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pitfall of advanced 
segmentation, especially when 

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you have the advantages of AI 
and big data. 

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That's good. 
Wow. 

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Yeah. 
So you make a great point. 

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I mean, big data using 
artificial intelligence, it can 

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definitely, you know, expedite 
certain processes and become a 

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more efficient way of, you know,
a processing and segmenting. 

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But like you said before, 
there's pros and cons to 

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everything. 
And, you know, in this regard, 

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there's a lot of hurdles that 
are worth considering that, you 

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know, you have to jump over if 
you're going to be moving in 

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this direction. 
And, and I'm super glad that you

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were able to kind of shed a, a 
good light on this. 

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Now this, this podcast again, is
serving as a teaser to your 

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workshop that's going to be 
coming up in our fall 

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conference. 
Is there anything that you would

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want attendees to take away 
your, your workshop from your 

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content, from your conversations
that you're going to have? 

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Because I mean, for for 
listeners tuning in right now, 

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I'm not sure if they're aware, 
but Joanne Smith is always one 

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of the favorites at our 
conferences when it comes to 

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these different speaking 
sessions. 

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And so she has a lot of gems to 
just kind of give back to those 

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who are who are listening. 
And so is there anything in 

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particularly particular you want
the attendees to kind of walk 

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away with? 
Yeah, that's a great question, 

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Terence. 
So as you know, I try and make 

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things as practical, practical 
and simple as possible to give 

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us, you know, 80% of the bang 
for the buck. 

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So I'm really taking what can be
a very complex topic, boiling it

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down to very simple way so 
everybody can walk out of there 

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and begin to make changes and 
how they're setting price and 

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doing that right away. 
And, and again, even those 

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advanced people for them to see.
Oh my gosh, right. 

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I did some good stuff. 
But maybe if I could just 

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tighten this up or that up, it's
going to be far more effective. 

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OK, good, good. 
And one last question to leave 

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with those who are listening. 
Where can they go to learn more 

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00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,240
about you as a professional and 
as a person? 

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00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,120
Maybe some of the resources you 
have available to those who are 

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00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:30,000
interested and maybe to learn 
more about, you know what it is 

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00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,920
that you that you stand for. 
Oh, OK. 

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So right, they can certainly 
read any of my my books. 

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So you you mentioned a couple of
those right in on the get go or 

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they can go to my website if 
they want to 

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www.pricethenumber2profits.com 
and books are listed there as 

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00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,040
well as the varying more of my 
background, more of my offerings

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etcetera. 
OK, awesome. 

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And thank you so much again for 
your time with us today to kind 

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00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,560
of shed some light on what it is
you're going to be discussing in

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the fall at our conference. 
And also to shed a light on just

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generally segmentation and 
mastering some of the different 

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hurdles to jump over some of the
challenges to kind of be aware 

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of. 
And until next time for all the 

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listeners tuning in, we will see
you guys later. 

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Have a good one. 
Bye bye.