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Okay. 
Hello. 

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And thank you all for tuning in 
to yet another episode of the 

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professional pricing Society 
podcast. 

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My name is Terrence and we do 
have an amazing discussion ahead

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of us. 
Joining me today is Griff Perry.

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He is the co-founder of a 
company called M A metering and 

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pricing engine. 
That makes it easy for SAS 

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companies to deploy manage and 
optimize usage-based pricing. 

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Griff has co-founder John 
Griffin started. 

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M after building him selling a 
backing as Service Company for 

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video games to AWS, Us prior to 
launching M Griffin, held senior

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digital strategy and 
transformation roles at Sky 

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Griff. 
Are you doing today? 

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I'm very goodness. 
Let me see here. 

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Good good. 
I'm glad that we're glad to have

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you were very interested in this
in this conversation today. 

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Talking about pricing as a 
growth lever for SAS companies. 

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Let's just go ahead and just 
jump right into it. 

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If you don't mind kind of give 
us a little brief description of

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your background and you know, 
where you kind of come from 

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regarding the pricing world. 
Sure only one thing I would say 

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from is I'm probably much less 
expert in pricing or pricing 

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strategy, then the majority of 
your audience. 

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So what I consider myself to be 
is an expert in the tooling that

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allows you to deploy pricing 
strategies, effectively and 

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flexibly. 
But obviously, I picked up a bit

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about pricing along along the 
way in terms of my background. 

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I've sort of had a career of two
parts and the first part of my 

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career. 
I would To television, as you 

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mentioned in Skies, this guy the
big pay-tv player in the UK and 

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in Europe, I did a variety of 
things and I started off being a

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strategist, but because digital 
was happening, I ended up 

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focusing on digital strategy and
that leaked into digital 

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products. 
And so, I became a product 

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person there, funnily enough. 
I mean, thinking back on it, I 

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probably didn't think as much 
about pricing, as I should have 

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done about those products, which
is possibly be Cuz it's guy is a

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is a subscription business and 
for the most part of the 

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products that we were building 
were being bundled in with the 

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core and subscription, but I'm 
but I didn't really Flex the 

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pricing muscle then, but the 
second part of my career was the

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entrepreneurial part. 
So like you mentioned that my 

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co-founder who is also called 
Griffin. 

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Although it's his surname rather
his birth name and we founded a 

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company called games box and 
that was a cloud infrastructure 

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business focused on the Again, 
stays like you said and we 

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deployed usage. 
Well obviously we had to design 

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our own pricing strategy so that
was my first exposure real 

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exposure to pricing and we 
deploy the usage-based pricing 

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strategy successfully in that 
business. 

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But the reason I've gone on 
we've gone on to found meet 

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areas. 
We experience a lot of pain 

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associated with that usage-based
pricing model, it's both 

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operational but also go to 
market. 

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And we felt those pain points 
really clearly, we really 

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struggled with them and then 
when we sold that business to 

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AWS, we then worked our own out 
at AWS. 

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They're also a usage-based 
pricing business or be it on a 

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much bigger scale. 
And what we saw is that they had

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exactly the same pain points. 
And so that was the real spark 

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when we started talking about 
major, it's like right, okay? 

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You know, if you're deploying, 
usage-based pricing, it hurts in

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these ways and there's something
missing that needs to be 

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created. 
That helps solve those hurts. 

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Sure sure. 
Makes me. 

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And that makes complete sense. 
Now, you know, thinking about, 

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you know, your background and 
strategy and kind of going into 

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the digital realm, you know. 
Now we're in 2023 and in the 

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world of pricing you know, why 
do you think it's going to be a 

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little bit more important for 
these type of companies to kind 

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of hone in on to their pricing 
strategies moving forward in 

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this year because life is 
tougher. 

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Yeah I mean we are uh Operating 
in in hard mode, certainly 

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harder mode and our customers 
are software companies and so 

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life got hard for them in for 
two reasons. 

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So, one is the general 
macroeconomic climate is tough 

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and all their customers are 
looking to cut costs, cut their 

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cloth, so that stuff and at the 
same time, the funding 

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environment for software 
companies is changed pretty 

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radically in the past year. 
So We've gone from a period of 

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easy money. 
Essentially, to the current 

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situation where new funding is 
much harder to come by and much 

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more difficult to justify. 
And so companies are a thinking,

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how do I get by without 
fundraising or if they are 

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committed to fundraising the 
potential investors are looking 

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much more at the fundamentals. 
And so for those two reasons 

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life is harder and I think when 
life is hard, Harder people look

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at pricing much more, keep you 
because it's seen as a lever to 

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optimize results in more 
difficult circumstances. 

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So I generally I think pricing 
is much more important now than 

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it was last year. 
Sure. 

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And I think any, you know, 
pricing professional can also 

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agree in that in that said to me
you know it's it's more 

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important now than it seems like
ever has been now for those who 

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may not be aware. 
What exactly is usage-based 

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pricing? 
How do we know it's right for 

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our business and are there any 
other type of strategies 

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underneath usage-based pricing? 
Say every single person 

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listening to this podcast 
understands usage-based pricing 

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because it's it's absolutely 
fundamental to articles like 

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Logistics or or energy and 
utilities or telecoms. 

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So the basics of usage-based 
pricing is you pay for what you 

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consume and what's what's new 
for? 

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Our business is its application 
to Software. 

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So software is traditionally if 
you go back decades, being sold 

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on the basis of a piece of been 
on an ownership model, you know,

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you buy it. 
And then for the last 10, 15 

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years, it's been going through a
subscription phase where you're 

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basically. 
You're paying a recurring fee 

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for Access. 
That's the core SAS model. 

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And what's happening now is 
businesses, are adopting 

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usage-based pricing partly 
because They're they're 

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imitating a responding to 
innovators in the market like 

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AWS or day to dog or Snowflake 
and partly because there are 

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some fundamental Trends which 
make usage-based pricing work 

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better and a lot of that has to 
do with Automation and little 

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that's to do with product LED 
growth. 

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But but yes, the fundamental 
part of it. 

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It's, you pay for, for what you 
use, and it's an alternative to 

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paying for ownership, or for 
Access or by transaction, or by 

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outcome Now, there are also 
other pricing strategies outside

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of usage-based pricing. 
That you may be aware of the 

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career. 
Yeah, 100%, hey. 

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Yeah. 
And what's interesting about 

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business is that they're often 
used in combination. 

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So so it m. 
We the Tailwind for our business

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is absolutely. 
The growing adoption of 

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usage-based pricing. 
I think it's gone from being 

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used by a third or so software 
companies. 

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Three years ago to almost 
two-thirds Now, but it isn't 

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these aren't all extreme 
variations of usage-based 

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pricing, like awx a lot of it is
it's hybrid where one of our 

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customers is offering to their 
customers subscriptions for 

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example, but for the 
subscription, you get an 

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allowance of stuff. 
Whatever it is say, it VI calls.

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And when you exceed that 
allowance, you're charged 

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overages. 
That's an example of usage-based

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pricing. 
So It's a, yeah, there's there 

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is a lots of complexity, which 
we like mmm. 

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That's good. 
Good. 

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Okay. 
Now in your expertise and in 

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your tenure of strategy 
building, you know, who do you 

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think should be involved in 
developing a pricing strategy? 

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It's Tricky, isn't it? 
And I and I think this is one of

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the reasons why people don't 
pull companies, don't pull 

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pricing as a lever that much so 
times are good. 

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You pricing is roughly right, 
you don't touch it because any 

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changes are painful. 
So in terms of who needs to be 

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involved, it takes a village. 
It is pretty much all the 

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functions across the company so 
it's definitely Finance. 

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It's definitely sales is 
definitely marketing is 

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definitely product and it's 
definitely engineering. 

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And then for each of those areas
you actually got to consider 

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sub-teams. 
So to give you an example in 

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finance, that's both commercial 
Finance or financial planning 

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and Analysis people who are 
thinking about the effects of 

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change pricing and forecasting, 
different Revenue, mats But then

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there's also different 
constituency which is a billing 

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operations or the thin Ops 
people who are responsible for 

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actually calculating and bending
invoices. 

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So they're worried about the 
operational impact of pricing 

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changes and you get sort of 
similar sort of sub, 

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constituencies all the way all 
the way down and it's, you know,

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it's hard and in our business it
m we often dealing with it's 

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quite large companies who are 
adopting different pricing 

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strategy for the first time and 
what they realize is that 

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they're actually going through 
quite a significant business 

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General business transformation.
It's not just about implementing

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pricing, they've actually got to
change the way their teams work 

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with each other and the tooling 
that they share and it's not 

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unusual for us to be in a room 
with two teams from a, from a 

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customer who never spoken to 
each other before. 

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Or that's because I used. 
Yeah, it's kind of interesting 

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and they sort of introduce 
themselves and start laughing 

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and we get our right, you know? 
Okay, so this is all they do for

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you at the good news is that 
this is our main drain. 

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We do this every day so we can 
be quite helpful about get 

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guiding them and orchestrating 
their efforts. 

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But the underlying point is 
involves a lot of different 

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teams and learning a whole bunch
of new tricks. 

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Yeah, I can only imagine 
learning different. 

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Trends are learning different. 
Aspects every department or 

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sector everyone. 
You know, it's a risk 

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essentially it's going to take a
village of a company in this 

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regard to I guess develop a 
priori legitimate pricing 

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strategy and they're also used 
to take into consideration as 

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well. 
The data that every Department 

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brings to the table, like how 
can data play an important role 

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in this process overall as well?
Well technically it's very 

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important to actually we think 
of ourselves as a date, a 

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company but it's important, it's
important for two reasons. 

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Reasons. 
So, one is about design and one 

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is about operationalizing. 
So, on the design front, you 

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know, constant pain point we see
people going. 

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Well, I've got some ideas about 
pricing, but I don't know, which

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is the right one. 
And, you know, to answer the 

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question you've got to 
understand how customers are 

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using your product, how they 
segment into different groups. 

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And so you need to like you 
again. 

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I'm sure that most people are 
listening to this podcast. 

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I'm the first thing you do is 
you collect data like, what's 

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going on? 
What do we know about what's 

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going on? 
And then you find a way of 

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testing it. 
So that's that that's the data 

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to fuel design. 
Bellamy operationalizing side of

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things, this is probably more. 
So of usage-based pricing than 

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perhaps other pricing strategies
but information about what data 

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about product usage and how much
a customer is is spending is 

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valuables throughout the 
business so you don't need it, 

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just to drive your billing. 
Your sales team will also need 

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that information so that they 
can You can have informed 

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conversations with the 
customers, they don't want to be

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ignorant also much that customer
is using and how much they're 

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spending. 
And they also they need that 

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information so they can make an 
time their conversations because

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you really want to talk to a 
customer if their usage is 

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spiking up or spiking down, or 
approaching a threshold above, 

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which they might be throttled or
judged overages. 

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So that that data about usage 
and spend Critical for the sales

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team to give you another 
example. 

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It will also be very important 
to your product team because, 

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you know, usage-based scenario 
pricing is actually part of the 

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product. 
You can't send a customer an 

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invoice with a single line item 
once a month. 

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The End customer completely 
reasonably wants to know how 

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much they using and how that 
usage converts into spend any 

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given point through the billing 
cycle, you know, could be the 

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second day of the month, it 
could be the seventeenth day of 

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the month, but They need that 
information. 

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So product teams want to 
basically create building 

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dashboards and so they need the 
same information which has been 

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pipe to the billing system and 
it's being pumped for the sales 

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team. 
So if your usage based 

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businesses usage and spend data 
is like blood, it needs to 

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percolate through out the org to
have its full effect, which 

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makes dead is full effect. 
Otherwise, you're not really 

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managing it effectively. 
Hmm. 

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You know, it's a living Beast, 
isn't it? 

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You know, you You put out your 
pricing but you, you need to 

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actively manage your customers. 
Your want to agree slightly 

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different pricing terms for 
different customers depending on

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who they are. 
Particularly, if you've got 

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slightly larger customers and 
that information in allows you 

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to do. 
It's if you're not being 

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proactive, your, you're not 
optimizing, it's not something 

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you can set. 
And forget sure, last question 

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for you all know students in 
your direction, going away from 

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our customers, you know, what, 
advice would you give to 

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companies thinking about raising
their prices? 

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You know, especially this year 
2023. 

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It's Tricky, isn't it? 
Well, I mean, particularly in 

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software, which is the vertical 
out, great. 

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And a lot of people are doing 
it. 

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I think there was news, there 
was news this week about 

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Shopify. 
Put their prices Zoom put up 

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their prices. 
And there's definitely a lot of 

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supply-side pressured to do it 
because, you know, input input 

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costs are going up. 
Plus, you know, if you're 

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looking to optimize results, you
should be relatively bold about 

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searching out. 
You know, the Headroom in your 

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pricing, right? 
I'm not answering a question. 

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I'm explaining why it's 
difficult, right? 

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So what how would I would? 
I would I do? 

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I mean I for a start I would 
really think about what your 

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pricing power is, you know, some
software vendors are about 

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effectively critical 
infrastructure. 

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So M own businesses is pretty 
critical infrastructure. 

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I mean, you know, we're right at
the core of billing customers 

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and the more critical you are 
the more pricing power, you have

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the other end. 
Of the scale, you know, if 

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you're just a nice to have been 
in these in this economic 

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climate, you're already 
vulnerable even before you put 

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up, your think about putting up 
your prices people looking to 

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make savings. 
So definitely consider your your

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pricing power. 
I would also do what we were 

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talking about. 
Just a second ago is that you 

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know, you're going to need to 
socialize these changes with 

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your customers so that they 
understand them and believe them

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to be fair. 
So communication matters a lot 

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and then I guess the final thing
is it there is There's a lot of 

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opportunity to be quite 
sophisticated about price Rises.

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It doesn't have to be sort of 
like, just a standard lift 

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across your customer base. 
You can do to private price on a

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customer bases but if you don't 
want to do that, there are other

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techniques as well. 
And usage-based pricing which is

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what you know, the Tailwind for 
business. 

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What we tend to focus on is one 
example that so If you let's say

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you're a subscription business, 
where everybody just paid 

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subscription price and there was
no additional fee depending on 

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weight of usage, if you 
basically keep that model. 

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But introduce an allowance is a 
usage, allowance associated with

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this description. 
And if you exceed it, you'll pay

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more. 
What you end up doing is 

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extracting more willingness to 
pay from your heaviest users who

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believe it to be fair. 
And so because The conversation,

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00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,400
you can have to them is where 
you're using it a lot. 

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00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,700
So, it makes sense that you pay 
a little bit more than everybody

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else and most people go. 
Yeah, I guess that's a good 

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point. 
Maybe. 

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I can think about how I could 
use a little less, but I don't 

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object to the principal about, 
I'll be paying a little bit 

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more. 
So, it's just it's worth 

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00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:17,099
thinking about slightly stealthy
tactics like that where you can 

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effectively price discriminate 
between your, your customers. 

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00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:25,300
Because that tactic there would 
actually, the average selling 

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price will definitely increase. 
But the It doesn't have to be 

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00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,400
associated with a significant 
headline with price, rise, which

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00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:38,700
is something that might trigger,
you know, reconsideration of 

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observing people want to use 
your product. 

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Sure? 
Okay, makes perfect sense. 

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Wagner of Pierre. 
I really do appreciate your time

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00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,200
with us today. 
That's all the questions I had 

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for you for this particular 
discussion. 

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00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,600
Did you have any, you know, 
questions or concerns for PPS or

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00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,100
myself? 
No husband. 

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00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:01,000
Okay, I don't have any concerns.
I like talking to pricing 

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00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,000
experts, like I said, like I'm 
not a pricing expert myself, I 

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00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,400
just happened to work with lots 
of people who are and and I see 

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00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,800
all the creative, one of the 
things that they're planning and

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00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:16,300
M, we hope to make it easy to 
implement those and make them 

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00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:18,400
happen. 
Sure, absolutely. 

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00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:23,500
Do you or or your company have 
any kind of resources available 

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00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:25,600
for listeners? 
That may be interested to learn 

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00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,400
more about you know, you were or
Open. 

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00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:32,100
Yes. 
If you if you go to our blog, so

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00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:37,600
m.com M built with the 3. 
Meter.com /blog there are a 

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00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:43,000
bunch of resources there around 
it sort of observed Behavior. 

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00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,100
You know we're looking at 
pricing strategies and the 

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00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:47,300
impact of those pricing 
strategies and we're sort of 

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00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,300
shining a light on what seems to
be working and what isn't 

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00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:54,400
working like this is us looking 
at the at the outcome rather 

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00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,200
than predicting. 
And what might happen. 

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00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,300
Like I said when I pricing 
experts but there's a bunch of 

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00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:04,200
stuff in there and also included
with that is a bunch of stuff 

335
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,400
about the operational challenges
of implementing usage-based 

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00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,800
pricing, which people should be 
aware of for. 

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00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:11,600
It's not it's not easy but it is
doable. 

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00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:17,400
If you know where you're headed,
okay, good good m.com that's M3,

339
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,800
t er.com. 
Here's a readily available blog 

340
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,100
section for those may be 
interested in learning more 

341
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:27,600
about Griffin Perry or Has 
company. 

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00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:28,800
Hey I want to thank you again, 
mr. 

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00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,800
Perry for your time and for our 
viewers listeners tuning in 

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00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,600
today, one. 
Thank you all so much for your 

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00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,300
time as well. 
Until next time, we will see you

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00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:37,600
again on the professional price 
inside podcast. 

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00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:38,100
Have a good one.