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Hey, Rob, how's it going, man? 
Good. 

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How are you? 
I am doing great. 

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I'm running on 2 little sleep 
because I can't turn off World 

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Cup games as it turns out. 
Like they they start and then 

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they just have to go all the way
through to the end. 

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So last night was a good one 
with Columbia pulling it out. 

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Oh, nice. 
Yeah, yeah, that's that started 

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after my bedtime. 
So I have no idea. 

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I have no idea. 
My, my one of my friends has 

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created like his vibe coded 
this, this wake up call app and 

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he's like, I'd like love for you
to test it out. 

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And I was like, dude, my alarm 
has been irrelevant for the 

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past, I don't know, six months 
because my daughter is now the 

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alarm at 5:29 every morning. 
It's it's time to freaking rock.

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And so I go to sleep early. 
Amazing, amazing. 

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Well, hey, Rob, we've got a 
super valuable one to talk 

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about. 
Very practical again on this 

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one. 
Your your post this week is 

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called are they pulling? 
How to identify pull versus 

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seems like pull, but isn't. 
I would I would call this one 

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try to buy is is like the like 
big take away from this. 

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And what we're going to talk 
about are basically some of the 

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things that make sales 
confusing, especially I suspect 

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for, you know, first time 
founders or or maybe it's even 

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more experienced folks. 
But it's, you know, for when I 

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was reading this, I was like, 
oh, OK, these are common things 

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that I was hearing that gave me 
optimism that slowly petered out

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and like, died a very slow, long
death. 

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But Rob, why don't, before we 
jump into the actual, excuse me,

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and jump into the actual 
content, why don't you give us 

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context for why this is on your 
mind? 

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So I've basically I, I just 
review a ton of start-ups, sales

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calls like that's how I spend a 
lot of my time. 

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And what I've noticed is that 
there is a very big difference 

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between what they see as like 
pull in a call and what I see as

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pull in a call. 
And unfortunately, I found that 

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I am more often right, which is 
to say we tend to be over 

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optimistic when we listen to a 
call and when we hear things, we

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hear things that sound like they
are the things that you would 

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say before buying. 
And in fact, they are things 

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that could plausibly be things 
you say before buying, but often

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they're just things you say 
without buying. 

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And So what I found is that 
there isn't. 

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I've been talking about this for
a while, but I haven't just 

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formally written this down about
what does pull actually look 

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like in a sales call. 
What does it mean? 

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How do you know if it is pull or
not, and how do we define it in 

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a way where you're not going to 
get confused by something that 

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looks like it could be pull but 
actually isn't? 

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Yeah, and this actually 
clarified something that is in 

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your clod skill for me. 
Your, your clod skill, the very 

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first thing that at like you'll 
take out a transcript, put it 

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into, put it into Claude and 
Claude will analyze it like with

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your perspective. 
And the first thing is, was 

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there a pull action or a 
purchase action or something 

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like that? 
And reading through this, I was 

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like, OK, This is why. 
This is why Rob starts there 

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instead of like jumping into 
into a framework, into the pull 

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framework. 
Let me read a couple of things 

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that you write early in this 
post and then we'll jump into 

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more of the details there. 
You're right, if they have pull,

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they will try to buy even if you
don't have a product ready yet 

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or even if you bumble around in 
the sales call and then a little

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bit later. 
Here's the most important thing.

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Anything other than trying to 
buy is not pulling. 

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If you think they are pulling 
when they're not, they're 

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probably not going to buy. 
Worse, you're going to think 

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they'll probably buy and as the 
deal extends, you're going to 

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keep pushing and following up 
rather than trying to figure out

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who will pull. 
This is how startups waste waste

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precious months or years down a 
dead end road. 

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Sigh. 
Been there, not fun. 

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Also have been there and not 
fun. 

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Can confirm. 
Rob, when do you when you work 

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with founders? 
Or maybe let's just sort of like

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like why do we do this? 
Like why do we mistake things 

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that are not pull for pull? 
I think it's so in a sales call,

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you're going to hear words and 
the hard part is interpreting 

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what those words mean. 
And so we tend to think that 

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things that are shaped like 
enthusiasm are the same things 

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as things that are shaped as 
pull. 

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And so you're going to hear 
words and you're going to 

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interpret like, oh, interesting.
They said this would save them a

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lot of money. 
They said this would solve their

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pain points. 
They said that. 

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And like those things we kind of
auto complete in our heads to 

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being OK, therefore they're 
going to buy. 

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But those things are not they're
going to buy. 

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And, and the really important 
point here is that if you 

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misinterpret this, there's going
to be two things that you're 

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going to do that are going to 
just they, they can just wreck 

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up your startup thing. 
One is you're going to keep 

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following up with these people 
believing that this is real, 

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which means think of the 
opportunity cost of doing that. 

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You're pushing on somebody who 
actually doesn't have pull, but 

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they were enthusiastic in some 
way, shape or form. 

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And so it's like it's so what's 
in your head is this is a real 

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deal. 
How do I get it across the line?

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You're not finding the people 
who actually do have pull and 

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just selling to them. 
But then the second thing, and 

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this is where I see a lot of 
stuff come together. 

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This is where demos get bigger. 
This is where value props get 

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bigger is you're going to 
misinterpret this situation as 

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oh, I need to get sales help to 
drive urgency here. 

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It's an urgency problem or I 
need to, you know, demo more so 

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that they get it. 
I need to do all of these kinds 

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of things because we're what's 
in our head is oh, OK, they did 

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have pulled. 
They should have bought it would

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have benefited them. 
I'm just executing something 

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downstream incorrect. 
And that's and like you can just

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see how both of these things are
going to waste your time and 

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lead you to do a bunch of work 
that won't help. 

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Yeah. 
And an example from my business 

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was I chased a rabbit for 
probably a year. 

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You were there for part of this 
dirty basically being helping 

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researchers with their sites 
communication that when they 

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were applying for NSF proposals 
and what it looked like 

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pragmatically to me was creating
a bunch of materials, reaching 

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out individually to a bunch of 
you know, like all of my 

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outbound was targeted at offices
of research at universities. 

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I went to a conference. 
Like, you know, you're, you're 

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spending money like you're doing
a ton of things and and like 

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you're saying like there's a 
huge opportunity cost with that,

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which is there was pull 
somewhere else. 

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I just wasn't focused there. 
And yeah, it's for me that was 

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it was probably like a solid 9 
or 10 month. 

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Like set back that as soon as I 
reading this, like I wish I 

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would have read this blog before
then. 

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I would have seen some of the 
exact quotes that you that you 

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talk about that they were saying
to me that I was interpreting 

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that they honestly, I think they
were just being nice. 

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We're like trying to not be 
mean, which is weirdly the 

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meanest thing that they they 
possibly could have done to me. 

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But where what are some other 
that maybe like, can you bring 

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this to life like that I was 
selling into, you know, large 

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organizations. 
You write about two things or 

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startups that are selling and 
refunders or or whoever selling 

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into startups and selling into 
institutions and how those are 

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different. 
Why don't we break apart? 

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What does pull look like? 
Yeah, and both of those cases, 

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it may be an example of each. 
Yeah, so, so, OK, so pulling is 

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like, so if you think of pull 
has many different flavors, 

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lowercase pull is basically 
people trying to RIP a product 

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out of your hands. 
It's like that. 

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It's like market pull, product 
pull, what whatever it is, it's 

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just this kind of objective 
phenomenon out there where the 

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reason start-ups take off is 
because they find that that pull

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lowercase pull capital pull is 
the framework PULL project on To

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Do List unavoidable list of 
options limitations. 

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The the pull framework describes
what is present in a buyer's 

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life before you show up such 
that when you show up with 

152
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something that fits their pull 
that unblocks them so they can 

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get their project done, they 
will pull it out of your hands. 

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So pulling the verb is is what 
we described as trying to buy it

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is them initiating a purchase 
shaped activity. 

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Now this is going to be 
everyone's like but Enterprise 

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Oregon whatever it is or but the
product isn't ready yet. 

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It's like OK, I'm getting there.
Calm, calm down South in if 

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you're selling to a start up or 
a small business, so I sold my 

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first company was selling into 
restaurants. 

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They would basically say shut 
up. 

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How do I buy that is a that is 
basically I am trying to buy the

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opposite of that is me saying. 
So in terms of next steps, would

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you like to see a demo, Right. 
That's me proposing next steps 

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and I'm saying yeah, I guess 
I'll say yes. 

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And my yes is either that I'm 
interested, but it also could 

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just be I'm being polite, right.
So what we're looking for is 

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them initiating some sort of 
purchase shaped action. 

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Them trying to no, OK, cool, but
enterprise but deep tech, but 

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whatever. 
OK, fine. 

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So that's not always going. 
They're not always going to pull

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up their credit card and say, 
how do I pay right now? 

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Because that's a the nature of a
small business. 

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For example, in bigger 
businesses, it doesn't. 

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So they still have to initiate 
some sort of an action that is 

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purchase shaped. 
What it doesn't look like again 

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is you saying, well, would how 
would you like a deep dive demo?

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They're like, well, I've got 
nothing else going on in my 

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boring corporate life. 
So why not? 

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Right? 
Like that's so again, down that 

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path, there could be pull they 
could wind up buying, but that's

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not what pull looks like. 
Pull looks like them initiating 

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the next set of steps that lead 
to purchase. 

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So it would be basically, 
instead of you saying, well, you

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know, I could, I could, I could 
run this on your date. 

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I could show you, we could do a 
free POC like you proposing all 

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of these things, them saying, 
OK, yeah, this seems exactly 

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like what we are. 
What what I'm looking for, what 

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I haven't been able to do 
internally. 

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Here's what needs to happen on 
my side. 

191
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I have a couple questions that 
I'd like to answer. 

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And then we're going to have to 
go through da, da, da, da to 

193
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bring this into the 
organization. 

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It does that and and like them, 
them proposing those set of next

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steps. 
That's what you are looking for 

196
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here. 
And yeah, it's not them pulling 

197
00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,280
out their credit. 
They can't necessarily pull out 

198
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,960
their credit card, although 
sometimes they will. 

199
00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:07,960
Friend in pharma had a case 
where basically every single one

200
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of his 1st 10 customers didn't 
buy in the first call, but they 

201
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:17,680
basically bought in the second 
or third call and circumvented 

202
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procurement to buy and then went
for went to apologize later and 

203
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,000
went to fix it later because 
they had such pull. 

204
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It was that person in the 
organization has to do something

205
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stuck and so they are going to 
pull it out of your hands. 

206
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,960
So does that clarify the kind of
trying to buy them trying to 

207
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,320
buy? 
Yeah. 

208
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,160
And if you're selling it as if 
there is, the way I was 

209
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,720
interpreting it while I was 
thinking and reading it, what 

210
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,120
you wrote was if there's no 
reason for them to have to go 

211
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,880
through procurement, they should
be actually purchasing or I 

212
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,920
don't know, but maybe it's a 
small business. 

213
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,280
I mean, do you find, Rob that it
sounds like the ideal when 

214
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,000
you're selling into smaller 
organizations is like it's 

215
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,280
purchase, it's designed to be 
purchasable in the first after 

216
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,000
the first conversation more or 
less. 

217
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
In the first, so a classic 

218
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,760
example, there's, there's a 
couple of start-ups that I've 

219
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,280
seen that are selling into 
smaller businesses. 

220
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,360
They buy in the first 
conversation and and it's 

221
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,440
usually 5-10 minutes into the 
first conversation, maybe 15 and

222
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,320
then the rest of the first 
conversation is basically 

223
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getting them set up. 
So it's a mix of sales and 

224
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,760
onboarding is what I've seen in 
some of the fastest growing 

225
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:32,880
start-ups that are selling into 
that stage. 

226
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,680
And then eventually the 
start-ups also have a self-serve

227
00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:37,200
option that people can do 
themselves. 

228
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,560
That's interesting. 
And that, so that's the step. 

229
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:46,000
Like PLG is the and, and so, and
then with larger organizations, 

230
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:52,480
what does, what are some 
examples of a when you see them,

231
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,280
you immediately recognize that, 
oh, that is a what? 

232
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,320
What are your words on this? 
Like a purchase shaped action? 

233
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,080
Like what are what are there two
or three things that if a 

234
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,000
founder hears it or sees it, 
they're like, oh, OK, this is, 

235
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,080
this is legit. 
Like they're, you know, it's 

236
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,920
not. 
So the most important thing is 

237
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:18,360
the potential customer 
initiating an action and that 

238
00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,200
action, there's a variety of 
different actions that might be 

239
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:28,240
right. 
Things like, OK, cool, here's 

240
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,080
what I need to understand. 
Can we schedule another 

241
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,800
conversation, right? 
Like here's here are the things 

242
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,000
that are my, this seems like a 
fit. 

243
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,480
Here's the things I need to know
and I need to assess in the 

244
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,160
future. 
Those are kind of like purchase 

245
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,320
shape access. 
Those are them leaning in. 

246
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,760
There is some nuance here 
because what, what I have often 

247
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,160
seen is them saying, Oh yeah, 
can I get trial access, which 

248
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,760
may or may not be a purchase 
shaped action. 

249
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,480
That might just be a way for 
them to say, yeah, cool. 

250
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,240
Like. 
And So what we're looking for 

251
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,320
it, when you get something like 
that, you want to kind of double

252
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,520
click into it to, to what we 
we'll talk about later is if you

253
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,240
hear something that may or may 
not be a purchase shaped action,

254
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,440
you want to kind of play dumb 
and, and understand what's like,

255
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,400
is this because you want to buy 
like I, I help me understand 

256
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:27,000
here, but it is, it is think of 
it as them leaning in, pulling 

257
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:33,600
your product into their worlds 
and almost like defining what 

258
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,400
needs to happen so they can 
purchase it. 

259
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,040
Let's hit a couple of these 
things that founders might hear 

260
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,360
that they might mistake for 
pull. 

261
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,200
I'll read through these, Rob. 
And then why don't you choose a 

262
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,600
couple of them that are most 
relevant or most confusing? 

263
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,160
One is wow, this is exactly what
the industry needs. 

264
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:59,040
Another one is this would solve 
our biggest pain point or this 

265
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,080
would make my life so much 
better. 

266
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,520
And then two more real quick, 
This would save us $10 million 

267
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,080
per year. 
Or if we move forward, oh, this 

268
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,400
one's interesting. 
If we move forward, what would 

269
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,000
the process be? 
Are there a couple of those, 

270
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,440
Rob, that you see founders like 
stumbling over more frequently 

271
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,800
that are worth like dissecting? 
So the pain .1 is the common 

272
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,640
one, the one that I always like 
RIP on and, and, and so 

273
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,200
hopefully people are used to me 
talking about how pain point, 

274
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,400
like pain points are not 
predictive of purchases and 

275
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,880
talking about pain points is not
predictive of anything. 

276
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,840
And so cool really that that's a
common one. 

277
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,760
What, what you want to look 
through as you read these and as

278
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,160
you think about the 
conversations that you had with 

279
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,360
potential customers is can they 
say this and not buy? 

280
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,720
Yeah, wow. 
This would solve our biggest 

281
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,240
pain point. 
Oh my gosh, this would solve our

282
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,160
biggest pain point. 
Even said with a ton of 

283
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,360
enthusiasm, Oh my God, this is 
amazing. 

284
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,720
This would solve exactly what 
we're, we've bet, you know, our,

285
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,800
our the number one problem we've
been facing. 

286
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,839
It's like, OK, cool. 
You can also not buy it in that 

287
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:13,079
case. 
And, and so the other one that's

288
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,119
like super common. 
And then we can get to the to 

289
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,800
the last one is the the clear 
ROI whole account. 

290
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,359
This would save us $1,000,000 
per year, $10 million a year 50.

291
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,119
This would earn us an extra 
$2,000,000 a year, right? 

292
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,640
These things all sound like they
are things that are said before 

293
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:35,760
purchasing, but they are not. 
They are mirages because in the 

294
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,160
words of a book of heart of 
innovation, a really good book 

295
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,640
on that talks about this 
specific thing is they have a 

296
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,880
bunch of other ways that they 
could save $10 million or make 

297
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,480
$100 million that they're not 
doing right now. 

298
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,440
And so just an objective kind of
like unbelievable offer 

299
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,280
unbelievable ROI that they 
exclaim, wow, this might 

300
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,960
increase our sales by 5%. 
Cool that you probably have a 

301
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,920
bunch of other ways to increase 
your sales by 5%. 

302
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,400
Is this actually something you 
need to do or not right. 

303
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,000
Like that's that's where we're 
trying to get to so you can get 

304
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,720
it. 
When you hear these kinds of 

305
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,200
words, you don't even have to 
have happy ears to be like, oh, 

306
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,000
that sounds like a thing that 
someone would say before buying.

307
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,040
Yeah, and sometimes does say 
before buying. 

308
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,680
Right. 
They sometimes do say that and 

309
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:37,160
we will misinterpret these words
as the reason they are buying. 

310
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,080
They're not, they're like, not, 
they're not necessarily the 

311
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:47,600
reason they are buying. 
Yeah, let's, I'm going to, I'm 

312
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,680
going to resist the urge to dig 
into that one specifically. 

313
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,040
Why don't we hit this last one? 
If we move forward, what would 

314
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,880
the process be? 
And then we'll talk about if you

315
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,680
hear one of these things, what 
do you do with it? 

316
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,120
But if we move forward, what 
would the process be? 

317
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:05,560
Why isn't that like that? 
That feels like it's initiating 

318
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,080
an action, like what's going on 
there? 

319
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:15,640
That so that is close, but 
because think of how much waste 

320
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:21,280
think of the 9 or 10 months you 
spent down a path where there 

321
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,360
wasn't pull, but there was 
enthusiasm. 

322
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,400
We want to be as skeptical as 
humanly possible when hearing 

323
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,240
these quotes so that we don't 
waste our lives. 

324
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,520
And so when you hear if we moved
forward, what would the process 

325
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,720
be? 
That's essentially saying, OK, 

326
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,000
let's, I'm not going to give you
any information about this, but 

327
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,880
let's construct A hypothetical 
scenario in which we move 

328
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:55,840
forward a hypothetical world. 
Tell me more about the process 

329
00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:01,400
in that case, right, Which could
be, it could be OK, we want to 

330
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,680
move forward. 
What is the process or 

331
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,560
contingent upon the process on 
what the process is, we would 

332
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,360
like to move forward. 
It could be those things, or it 

333
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:15,320
could also be a. 
I'm just curious if we move 

334
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,800
forward, what does the process 
look like even though we're 

335
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,080
probably not going to move 
forward? 

336
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,600
And so you don't want to get 
into the go down the path of 

337
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:31,920
misinterpreting something like 
this that seems so close to 

338
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,440
pull, but is it? 
We have to be skeptical by 

339
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,360
default. 
Yeah, I'm thinking of a couple 

340
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:43,720
examples with ours and what they
were saying there was, this is 

341
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,120
not urgent for me right now. 
I could imagine it becoming 

342
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:51,320
urgent at some point. 
And then that also. 

343
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,240
Yeah, I those are probably kind 
of the customers that show up 

344
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,560
randomly in your inbox six 
months later on when it actually

345
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,240
does it. 
But until they experience that 

346
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,720
moment of urgency when it's you 
talk about it as being 

347
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,000
unavoidable or it's the right 
now element of it that nothing 

348
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,480
is going to happen and it 
doesn't matter. 

349
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,360
And so it's that like that one, 
I think it's confusing that, you

350
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:18,040
know, one other thought 
reflecting on some of these are 

351
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,440
a lot of my I've spent an 
embarrassing amount of time 

352
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:27,600
frustrated at customers. 
Like why do they not, they're 

353
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,360
saying these things like why 
aren't they doing the right 

354
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,400
thing for their business or 
something along, you know, with 

355
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,080
that shape And it feels like a 
lot of it is grounded in this. 

356
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,360
I yeah, 100% agree. 
I think there's there's two 

357
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:47,640
pieces of this. 
One piece is that we think that 

358
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,720
the problem here when when we 
hear these things and then they 

359
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:57,120
don't buy is solved by something
in the words that we say are the

360
00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:00,200
things that we do or the way 
that we describe our product. 

361
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,280
This is why I like basically 
every startup that comes to me. 

362
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,960
They think they have a 
positioning problem as if in 

363
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,160
these calls there was another 
set of words you could say that 

364
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:17,080
would cause them to have bought.
No, there isn't. 

365
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:18,720
You just have to find the 
people. 

366
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,120
So, so you just can't 
misinterpret what people are 

367
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:26,000
actually saying. 
The second piece though, is that

368
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:33,840
we design our sales calls to get
these kinds of exclamations that

369
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:40,840
sound like pull and aren't. 
And then we design our the way 

370
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,920
that we interpret the sales 
calls to basically gaslight 

371
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,920
ourselves. 
That is so deep, Rob. 

372
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,360
And at least in my case, it's 
100% true. 

373
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,160
Is there, is there a, why do we,
can I just let's not extend this

374
00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:59,480
too far. 
Let's wrap up here in a little 

375
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,600
bit, but why do we do that? 
Is it like a validation? 

376
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:04,600
Like what? 
What's going on? 

377
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,040
Why do we do that? 
So, so earlier in the post, and 

378
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,320
this is what deserves its own 
like entire post, but I just had

379
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,360
one throwaway line that I 
couldn't figure out where to put

380
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,600
where it's like a sales call is 
just a see if they try to buy 

381
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:23,120
call like that's what it is. 
And we it's it comes back to 

382
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:27,760
this psychology thing of like, I
want to sell to you. 

383
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,680
I want you to want this. 
We need to design our sales 

384
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:38,600
calls assuming the absence of 
pull with this person so that 

385
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,600
they convince us that they have 
pull when they have it. 

386
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,200
And we don't get, we don't try 
to convince them that they 

387
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,360
should have pull. 
And so you could think of how 

388
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:55,760
that infects basically the 
entire call, which is like, oh, 

389
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,840
the questions that I asked in 
Discovery are super leading 

390
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:04,720
questions that they will answer 
that will give me The Mirage of 

391
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,400
pull versus I want to ask them 
questions and design the 

392
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:13,440
discovery process so that I 
don't waste my time trying to 

393
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,400
sell to somebody who doesn't 
need my help. 

394
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:21,120
Yeah, golly, that's got to be 
like permeate through sales 

395
00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:23,720
scripts, like basically through 
everything, through the logic 

396
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,240
that's built into it. 
I'm looking forward to that one.

397
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,400
I you, you made a comment about 
that, I think two or three 

398
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,080
podcasts ago as we were trying 
to figure out some of the 

399
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,320
language on it. 
I've been thinking about it 

400
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,600
since then. 
Anyways, let's talk here before 

401
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,000
we wrap you right about playing 
dumb. 

402
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,320
And like when you hear one of 
these other things, which might 

403
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:48,400
proceed a call, but also might 
not like it's it's basically 

404
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,560
like a, a kind of a non 
information statement. 

405
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,160
You recommend that founders play
dumb. 

406
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:58,680
Can you talk to us a little bit 
about like what does that look 

407
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,360
like for you? 
Or when a founder plays dumb, 

408
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:02,720
like what? 
What are they trying to do? 

409
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,360
Yeah, so I'm a natural, clearly 
no play for people. 

410
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,440
That need to play then, yeah. 
For those of you who are smart 

411
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,280
enough who who, who need to play
done, what I find is that we 

412
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,400
will connect multiple logical 
dots in our heads in these calls

413
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,400
by default. 
And so we'll hear, oh, this 

414
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:24,680
would save us $10 million per 
year. 

415
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,400
Like, cool, you're buying it 
now. 

416
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,400
So like, let's move on. 
What I haven't heard or seen is 

417
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,200
a pull shaped action here. 
And so I'm confused. 

418
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,720
Like I should just be actually 
confused. 

419
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,040
And what I hear from a lot of 
founders is they are genuinely 

420
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,800
confused on sales calls and they
don't behave confused. 

421
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,160
They behave as if they know what
they're what's going on. 

422
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,280
And we just lose a lot of 
information because we do that. 

423
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:58,080
And so the playing dumb is just,
huh, you OK, So what you're 

424
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,840
saying is save you $10 million. 
But what I'm not hearing is 

425
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,920
therefore we need to buy this 
right now. 

426
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,560
Can you maybe help me understand
what's going on in your, your 

427
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,080
mind here, how you're thinking 
about this? 

428
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,680
And it's just like, that's a 
thing that makes me feel dumb 

429
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,480
saying. 
And also it's the way to figure 

430
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,520
out what poll really is. 
That's that's fascinating. 

431
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,280
Yeah. 
And another one I'll do is like,

432
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,640
and this is more of a 
restriction on me is like lean 

433
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,160
back, like intentional. 
I almost have to like handcuff 

434
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,440
myself from doing the active 
proposing. 

435
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,240
Like, oh, I heard something. 
I know what the process I wish 

436
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,680
that they would pull me toward. 
And I have to like almost 

437
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,120
physically restrained myself 
basically from doing it. 

438
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,160
And I'll either just like let 
there be some silence to see if 

439
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,280
they feel it because they're 
trying to do something or 

440
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,920
sometimes I don't know, is this 
the wrong thing to do? 

441
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,680
Rob? 
I'll be like, all right, well, 

442
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:03,880
do you want to do anything with 
this? 

443
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,440
Like something that's that's, 
you know, that doesn't propose 

444
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,680
steps that createspace if they 
want to propose them. 

445
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,320
But that might even be the wrong
thing to do right there. 

446
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,040
Yeah. 
So I actually like coming out at

447
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,880
from the direction of OK, we 
haven't figured out how to 

448
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,880
describe this yet, but it's 
almost leading questions away 

449
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,720
from purchasing. 
And so I had one a couple days 

450
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,560
ago where person came to me and 
they described 2 things they're 

451
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,520
trying to do with our business 
with their business. 

452
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,240
I described our product and and 
they're like, oh, that's really 

453
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,040
interesting. 
I was like, yeah, but you 

454
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,720
described 2 things that you're 
trying to do with our, your 

455
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,120
business, none of which we help 
with. 

456
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:54,000
Like I don't, it doesn't sound 
like this is actually relevant 

457
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,240
to you. 
And then he said, no, no, no, 

458
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,880
no, OK. 
And and so he fought against 

459
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:01,720
that to say actually, no, here's
where it's relevant. 

460
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,160
Here's why it's actually more 
important. 

461
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,960
It's like the Super set of those
two things. 

462
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,880
Here's da da, da, da da, right. 
And so that was a really that 

463
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,760
that was kind of like a case 
study of this of me basically, 

464
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,840
either you can either play dumb 
and just say it doesn't, these 

465
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,680
things aren't adding up in my 
brain, you tell me, or you can 

466
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,360
go negative or, or leading 
questions away. 

467
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,240
Again, I'm not like, it doesn't 
seem like what we do is relevant

468
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,160
to you. 
I might have missed something, 

469
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,200
but like, it's totally OK. 
If not, you just tell me. 

470
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,400
Yeah, yeah, fascinating. 
And when there's not pool and 

471
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,960
you've given me that feedback on
a couple occasions and I've done

472
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,920
that sometimes they actually, 
they appreciate the off ramp. 

473
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,600
They're like, like they don't 
actually want to buy from you. 

474
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,520
When you tell them that they're 
they're, it's already what's 

475
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,520
going on in their minds. 
Like in my case, it's all right.

476
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,160
So why would you purchase from 
us and not do like a meta 

477
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,320
campaign And they'll be like, 
yeah, like we're that's probably

478
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,840
the best option play that 
they'll basically like they'll 

479
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,040
take it when you give it to 
them, but they won't. 

480
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,080
They wouldn't have surfaced it 
earlier probably because I don't

481
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,280
really think I'm not aware of 
it. 

482
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,040
Or it's it's that I I'm not 
actually sure why they don't 

483
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,040
surface those things. 
But all it prevents like all the

484
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,600
frustrating follow up and like 
broken dreams. 

485
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,240
And what this just what this, 
what I'll say is what this helps

486
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,480
you do is get to ground truth of
who actually has pull and what 

487
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,760
you are selling. 
Because our goal is to minimize 

488
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,360
or the, the way we describe a 
product, what it needs to do, 

489
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,280
who we target so that we can 
only sell to people who have 

490
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,240
pull, who RIP the thing out of 
our hands. 

491
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,200
That's the way we grow super 
fast. 

492
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,360
If you're always following up 
with people who aren't going to 

493
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,720
buy and we're not sure why, and 
you're just describing the 

494
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,560
product bigger and bigger and 
bigger, it's just like, that's 

495
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,120
not how startups grow fast. 
It's just not how it works. 

496
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:03,720
And so this is entirely counter 
to what causes a startup to take

497
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,120
off. 
Yeah. 

498
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,440
One thing you've written in the 
past that I think about 

499
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,960
frequently is it's in many ways 
easier to build a fast growing 

500
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,320
startup than a lifestyle 
business or like a slower 

501
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,920
growing startup for that reason.
And so like all of the searches 

502
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,320
for how do we, how do we find 
something that basically grows 

503
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,760
itself? 
Rob, why don't we wrap here 

504
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,040
pretty soon? 
Any final takeaways or 

505
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,600
recommendations for founders 
that accidentally listened this 

506
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,240
far? 
If you haven't bought the book 

507
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,560
yet and you're listening this 
far, what the heck are you 

508
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,400
doing? 
And if you haven't, if you 

509
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,800
haven't told other founders to 
buy the book yet and you're 

510
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,160
listening this far, how dare 
you? 

511
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:49,800
No no, the book comes out in 
like 2 weeks so that's exciting 

512
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,480
and terrifying. 
Yeah, awesome. 

513
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,960
Well, we will leave the link for
that and the show notes and 

514
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,760
again, reminder you'll get 
access to a series of, I don't 

515
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,680
know, is there like 4 events 
that we're going to do live with

516
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,200
you for anybody that signs up 
and then or who purchased the 

517
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,240
book and then sends a screen 
grab And then also access to the

518
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,240
quad skill, which again is like,
I can't recommend that enough. 

519
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:15,760
All right. 
Well, if there's nothing else, 

520
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,320
Rob, why don't we wrap here and 
we'll see everybody next week. 

521
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:19,160
Sounds good.