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Hey, Rob, welcome back. 
How you doing man? 

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Good. 
How are you? 

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Good, good chilling back at 
corporate headquarters for 

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another week. 
I'll be back in in Mexico here a

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week and a half, but enjoying 
that beautiful Texas spring down

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here. 
What's What's new up in New 

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Hampshire? 
Yeah, well, it's we have had 

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nice weather and it's apparently
supposed to snap, so make up 

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your mind. 
That's that's hilarious and also

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sounds like medium low grade 
hellish to this fragile Texan. 

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Well, we are taking a break from
our normally scheduled 

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programming of helping 
entrepreneurs find product 

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market fit too detour into the 
land of defending capitalism and

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safeguarding its future for for 
our children and our children's 

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children. 
What's this week's post is 

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called the fusion engine for 
progress, the demand side of the

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future. 
And basically, we're going to 

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get into some critiques that I 
think you and I have heard with 

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our peer from our peers, that 
you specifically have heard from

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peers that we saw at Harvard 
that are kind of like in the 

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public narrative. 
And also, I think in a very 

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interesting way applying like 
taking the pull framework, which

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we discussed at a micro level 
and thinking about how does that

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if we zoom out, is it a fractal?
Like does it also apply, you 

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know, more broadly across across
an economy, across the system? 

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And so Rob would love to start 
with just like, why is this on 

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your mind? 
Like why? 

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Why are we headed in this 
direction today? 

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Yeah, I think 2 reasons. 
But is fractal the word you just

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googled? 
Is that the? 

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Word that you just like. 
Got it. 

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I nailed it. 
You know. 

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That's just, I actually don't, I
don't know if that's the right 

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word. 
I'm like 73% sure. 

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But I think a fractal means like
what works at a small level also

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works when it's applied at a 
broad level. 

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Yeah, it works across scales. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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I'm, I'm very proud of that 
word. 

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That's that's a good one. 
So yeah, like I think it's a 

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Nasim Taleb concept, if I 
remember correctly. 

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Anyway, he. 
He he talks about it. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
So I don't know. 

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So what what are we doing here? 
We are basically developing a 

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way of thinking about start-ups 
and thinking about business and 

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thinking about roughly a way of 
thinking about 0 to one, but 

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that the way to think about 0 to
one has implications for how 

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businesses generally work, how 
sales generally works. 

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Like this model that we are 
developing is a, it is like I 

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think the missing foundation for
why and how businesses work. 

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That's how I view it. 
That's what I think I'm doing. 

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I could be crazy in thinking 
that it is that important and 

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that that relevant, but I think 
it's actually a base model for 

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why people buy things and why 
new products work, which also 

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makes sense for existing. 
It has to make sense for 

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existing products. 
If you can't explain why new 

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products work, you kind of can't
explain why existing products 

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work in a in a causal way. 
And so we're focused at that 

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small level. 
And so that's fine. 

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It's great. 
It's like super helpful and I 

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think it's it's helped a lot of 
start-ups take off. 

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But I think there are some 
bigger questions that this model

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can answer or some that it can. 
It can help us see the world in 

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a slightly different way. 
I find that when people learn 

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about demand, it's a new lens, 
they learn about pull. 

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It's a new lens for seeing the 
world and for seeing their 

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business. 
And so the thought was, OK, 

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cool, I've been seeing this. 
I've been having these like 

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conversations about capitalism 
that are just kind of like 

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thrown at me. 
I don't go seeking them out. 

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I just get, you know, I just get
blindsided by random 

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conversations about capitalism. 
I'm. 

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Just hanging out in Cambridge, 
caught Smokey Cambridge coffee 

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shops and, you know, close to 
the philosophy department. 

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Yeah. 
No, God, no. 

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I am. 
I am in New Hampshire. 

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I am with normal people, right? 
I'm not this is these are not 

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conversations with like as I 
right in in this post, one of 

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probably my favorite line ever. 
This is, these are not 

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conversations I'm having with 
like University of Berkeley 

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professors of Marxist history, 
right? 

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These are just normal people 
with normal jobs who are not 

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like Ivy League eggheads. 
They're normal people. 

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And they kind of, there's this 
valence of like capitalism is 

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bad. 
I just get dip punched in the 

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face with that every couple 
weeks when I'm just interacting 

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with some normal person. 
And it's just 'cause it's been 

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in the back of my mind and it's,
you know, it's something that 

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I've probably heard forever, 
right? 

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About I probably heard 
complaints about this forever. 

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And I was thinking about it and 
the pull framework and I was 

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like, oh, this might have 
something to say about it. 

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And so I thought like, that's 
thing one thing 2 is this 

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podcast and newsletter will 
probably get us both uninvited 

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from reunion and I don't want to
go anywhere so. 

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Let's do it. 
I kind of hope so, yeah. 

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You know, let me, I think let's 
start, Rob, if you're cool with 

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it. 
Let's start with just like the 

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explanation, like how does pull 
extrapolate to an economy 

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essentially or to a system? 
What does pool mean when we're 

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not talking about me, Robert 
Carpenter with my business 

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trying to sell or trying to 
identify pool or demand or grow 

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my startup or find product 
market fit, But instead thinking

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about it more broadly, I'm going
to read the way that you open, 

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you open this, this sub stack. 
We are trying to do things in 

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our lives that this trying to do
things is what I call demand, is

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try to do things. 
As we try to do things, we 

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sometimes find that we are 
blocked. 

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We don't have the right methods 
or means or tools. 

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Maybe existing tools are too 
expensive. 

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Maybe they're not quite right. 
This is blocked. 

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Demand what I call pull. 
When there's pool, there's a 

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space where a new thing could 
come into existence and unblock 

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us if it unblocks. 
If it unblocks us, we buy it. 

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We keep trying to do things. 
We strive for more and bigger 

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and better because striving is 
human. 

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We get blocked as we strive and 
new space, new spaces emerge. 

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The cycle repeats. 
Rob, can you, I, I was trying to

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extract myself actually from 
while I was reading through 

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your, your post, trying to 
extract myself from like, you 

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know, 1824, whatever number of 
months of having been exposed 

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and influenced by your ideas to 
think like how did I used to 

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think that that capitalism 
worked at a micro level and then

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how that extrapolated to it. 
And I think I just, I, I like, 

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didn't really have it. 
There was like people, people 

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buy things, you know, invisible 
hand. 

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There's a market that exists. 
I, I, I don't think it, I, I 

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never made the connection, which
is one thing you've helped with,

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which is what happens at a small
level, which aggregates and how 

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that aggregates to a much bigger
level. 

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But would love, would love your 
thoughts. 

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Rob commentary on what does what
is the connection between pull 

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and capitalism, and other 
thoughts you have on like how 

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the system works. 
Yeah, I think so. 

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Usually when you take like 
economics one O 1, you learn 

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kind of there's supply, there's 
demand and there's the graphs go

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like that people buy things. 
But like, we don't actually 

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learn that at the individual 
level and like what causes a 

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person to buy a thing and what 
causes a new thing to come into 

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existence. 
And so we, I think that is 

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actually the level of analysis 
that all of this has to start 

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at. 
Because otherwise you're dealing

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with like abstractions and like 
concepts of willingness to pay 

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and, you know, likeliness to 
like willingness to produce and 

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all those kinds of things which 
are abstract concepts, they're 

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fine, they're useful. 
But we don't understand the 

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mechanism by which willingness 
to pay emerges, new products 

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emerge. 
And if we don't understand that,

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that we don't actually 
understand the system, right? 

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We could, we could talk about 
how people typically in their 

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minds think about capitalism 
and, and how this works. 

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But if you start at that level, 
right, just that simple rule, 

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I'm trying to do something in my
life. 

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I am blocked from doing it by my
existing tools, methods, options

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that those two forces that we've
talked about for a year now 

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Createspace for something to 
unblock me that I will pull, 

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that I will buy. 
If that is the only thing you 

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need to, that is the only rule I
think you actually need in order

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to derive, like how how 
capitalism works. 

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Yeah, the, you know, for me 
thinking about supply and demand

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and having, you know, studied 
economics, it, it was like, 

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yeah, the abstraction of what is
the volume of steel that the 

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United States would consume like
in a given year? 

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And it's like that idea exists 
that it was like if you would 

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have, would have asked why does 
that? 

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Why is that the level? 
I would have had a really hard 

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time drawing it. 
But it's like the job or the, 

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you know, the demand in that 
case, the thing that's blocked 

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is like probably construction 
primarily, or, you know, 

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creation of durable goods. 
And each one of those individual

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decisions has, you know, this 
trade off this, this decision 

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on, you know, what, what are my 
options? 

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What's the best option? 
What's the most economic option?

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And like understanding it from 
there as 100,000 a million, 10 

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million different individual 
decisions, looking to unblock 

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the construction of a building, 
looking to unblock the 

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construction of a car, the 
development of a factory and how

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that relates to individual pull.
Yeah, like that's, that's the 

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way the direction my brain goes 
when trying to make sense of 

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this. 
Yeah, yeah, I think that I think

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it like makes sense to say, OK, 
cool. 

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This this thing that I've 
described, this kind of pull 

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thing is human, right. 
We're all trying to do things in

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our lives. 
We and everybody who has ever 

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existed basically has been 
trying to do things as they go 

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about time and they've then 
blocked. 

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They just haven't been able to 
do the things they wanted to do.

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And those spaces have always 
emerged. 

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They've always been there. 
The question like, but it's that

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doesn't mean that a product just
comes into existence. 

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Somebody has to see that space 
and say, all right, cool, I'm 

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going to put something to fill 
that space. 

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And there has to be a reason for
them to do it right. 

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It's not easy as everybody who 
listens to this, but probably, 

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you know, they, they don't 
understand this in the faculty 

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lounge and in the, you know, 
sociology department at 

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wherever. 
But like everybody who listens 

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to this knows how hard it is to 
build something that people will

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buy and use. 
Build something useful. 

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Yeah. 
There has to be a reason to do 

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it or it just won't happen. 
And what capitalism does is it 

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creates the incentive through 
property, right through, through

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like a money system. 
But but it's basically like I 

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now have an incentive to build 
something useful that fits in 

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that space. 
Everybody has that incentive to 

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do that thing. 
And when we do that thing, we 

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get better off. 
We get unblocked from the things

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we want in our lives because now
we have money. 

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We have right, Like now we have 
whatever, right? 

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And and that's a, it's a, it's 
basically there's an incentive 

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mechanism for us to unblock 
other people and it's totally 

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decentralized. 
It's not I don't have to go and 

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ask for approval, which means it
had like the the capitalism is 

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the system that make sure that 
all of these spaces get filled 

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by default. 
And as one space gets gets 

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filled, there's space for the 
next. 

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The next space opens up after, 
right? 

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Like after I have built a home 
gym, I like, yes, I've filled 

218
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that space. 
Now I need heavier weights, 

219
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right? 
Like, and it's, it's this stuff 

220
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just keeps going and keeps going
and keeps building on each 

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other. 
And it starts with small things 

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and then it ladders up to bigger
and bigger things. 

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And so that's the, that's how, 
again, just from this simple 

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rule, person trying blocked 
space open person incentivized 

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to fill that space. 
That's how humanity's progress 

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works. 
That's how progress has 

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00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:42,960
happened. 
It's the cause of it. 

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And it start, it starts out with
somebody deciding that they were

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going to improve the 
transportation of grain to the 

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00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,560
market. 
And then next week we're 

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00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,240
launching a rocket to go back to
the moon and maybe to Mars 

232
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,600
eventually. 
So you know, we we. 

233
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,280
Created the Japanese toilet like
you know. 

234
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:06,160
Yeah, come on. 
But let's talk about push versus

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00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,640
pull capitalism, which is one of
these, you know, criticisms that

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00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,920
you you draw out. 
Could you give the context on 

237
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,800
what you mean by push versus 
pull capitalism, Rob? 

238
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:22,680
Yeah. 
So it like it, it really matters

239
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:29,400
how you think this micro level 
thing works, right. 

240
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,320
This micro level thing we've 
been talking about, I believe 

241
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:39,280
that people buy products when 
they are trying to do something 

242
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,560
but blocked by their existing 
options, which creates a space 

243
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,000
for a product that they will 
pull. 

244
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,760
That's not how you mentioned it 
earlier. 

245
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,120
Like you hadn't really thought 
about kind of like that level of

246
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,000
this and most people have 
thought about that level of 

247
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,200
this. 
In fact, if if you don't think 

248
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,120
about it at that level, then you
might default have this valence 

249
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that well, why do people buy 
things? 

250
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,120
Because they're convinced to buy
them whether or not they need 

251
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,320
them. 
Sometimes they're good things, 

252
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,960
sometimes they're bad things. 
But but right, like how why 

253
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,800
people buy things is they are 
convinced by somebody to buy 

254
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,880
things that they may or may not 
need, right. 

255
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,240
That is the push model versus 
the pull model in general. 

256
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:31,000
Now, if you think that the way 
all of this works is through the

257
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,160
push model, then you basically 
think, OK, cool, it's a bunch of

258
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,280
people convincing a bunch of 
people that they should buy 

259
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,560
things. 
That isn't inherently good. 

260
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:48,720
That is actually probably amoral
at best and perhaps parasitic at

261
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,720
worst. 
And it's something to be like 

262
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,600
guarded against, to be to to 
that is not a inherently good 

263
00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,520
thing. 
When you see it as pull, it's 

264
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,000
like by default, it is 
unblocking people and it's 

265
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,960
mechanisms for unblocking people
that that are just just kind of 

266
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,760
like work on mostly autopilot. 
Then it's like, oh, this is a 

267
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:16,120
default good thing. 
And so just you just how that 

268
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,680
works at a micro level, are 
people or do people buy things 

269
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,000
to unblock themselves from what 
they're trying to do or do they 

270
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,280
buy things because they're 
convinced to buy them? 

271
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:33,000
That simple like difference in 
Rule will determine how you 

272
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,160
think about capitalism, whether 
it's a good thing or a bad 

273
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:37,720
thing. 
Yeah. 

274
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,160
And the, the more that you spend
trying to build things that 

275
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,920
people want, I think that 
resonates even more deeply or 

276
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,240
interacting with people that 
aren't subject to that same, the

277
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,040
same pressure. 
Maybe one, one question here, 

278
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,920
Rob, like the, it feels to me 
like there's, there's a couple 

279
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,200
different criticisms of 
capitalism that are existing. 

280
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,280
I think you're, you know, 
approaching one, which is like, 

281
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,800
there's like a snake oil version
of somebody trying to convince 

282
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,319
you and sell you something. 
And that you're just like 

283
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,960
overwhelmed or like humans are 
overwhelmed by these arguments 

284
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,200
and they end up purchasing, but 
they are poor and worse off as a

285
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,079
result of it. 
I think that's the one that 

286
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:20,000
you're addressing there. 
How much of it do you think is 

287
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,880
like, is that versus there's a 
bunch of externalities that 

288
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,000
happen like whether through 
quirks in human psychology, like

289
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:30,520
our inability to turn off our 
desire to the carbohydrates, for

290
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,200
example, And so like rampant 
obesity in the United States or,

291
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,440
you know, pharmaceuticals that 
end up like, you know, pushing 

292
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,560
opioids in U.S. markets or a 
destruction of environmental, 

293
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,680
you know, you know, yeah, 
ecological spaces or some of the

294
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:51,480
things that exist within a, an, 
a framework of American 

295
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,480
capitalism, but aren't 
necessarily I, I don't know that

296
00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:01,320
they're fully explained by that 
push versus pull like approach. 

297
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,920
I'd love your thoughts on that. 
Yeah, I think that the 

298
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,560
externalities case is a is a 
very real case, right? 

299
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,960
And it's like, OK, cool. 
How do we how do we reckon with 

300
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,960
the fact that in order to 
unblock people, we might burn 

301
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,520
down forests, right? 
Or, or whatever, whatever The 

302
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,760
thing is, right? 
Or we might, you know, like we 

303
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,200
might harm animals, which I you 
know, I don't that that's a 

304
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:25,480
thing that that we struggle 
with. 

305
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,160
These are these are good 
questions to talk about, but we 

306
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,080
have to say though that like we 
have to say that the core 

307
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,400
mechanism is good, is by default
good. 

308
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,240
And that's what that's where I'm
staking. 

309
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,960
My claim is that the core 
mechanism is good over time, 

310
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:50,960
which changes how you approach 
questions like externalities, 

311
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,840
changes how you approach 
questions like regulation, 

312
00:18:53,840 --> 00:19:00,000
because I assume that over time 
people, right, like in some ways

313
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,080
this is blocking people. 
In some ways bad things that 

314
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:08,080
companies do are blocking their 
customers are blocking and, and 

315
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,400
sell it, which means they're not
serving their customers well, 

316
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,600
which open space for new 
companies to come in. 

317
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,600
And so like you see in a lot of 
cases where where companies have

318
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,960
seemed dominant in spaces and 
they kind of mistreat their 

319
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,480
customers and someone else comes
in and crushes them. 

320
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,960
And I think right, like there's 
a question of to what extent 

321
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,200
does that happen in 
externalities? 

322
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,680
How do we make sure that the 
those externalities are 

323
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,080
internalized? 
These are all like fine, these 

324
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,920
are good questions that have 
good debates to have, but I'm 

325
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:44,400
staking my claim on the the core
process here being a good 

326
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,520
process. 
And having been close to 

327
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:53,000
Venezuela and understanding like
the environmental destruction 

328
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,960
that happens in a system that is
not capitalist, that's 

329
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,320
socialist, it's not a uniquely 
capitalist problem that exists 

330
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:04,840
there either. 
You mentioned Rob, social 

331
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,600
responsibility and. 
And social, let's see, I'm going

332
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:10,600
to, I'm going to read a 
paragraph. 

333
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,600
I'd love to have this 
conversation with you because I 

334
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,560
think there's a specific context
and a specific approach to 

335
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,000
entrepreneurship that you're 
discussing. 

336
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,360
And I'd, I'd love to understand 
it more. 

337
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,960
You write, if you believe that 
in order to be a good person, 

338
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,200
your business needs to be 
focused on some social purpose 

339
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,680
or mission, you're going to fail
because you're actively not 

340
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,960
focusing on unblocking 
customers. 

341
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,560
I meet so many social 
entrepreneurs who win pitch 

342
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,560
competitions, but never win 
customers. 

343
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,600
We're wasting so much talent and
energy. 

344
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,840
I'm gonna, I'm gonna put on 
pause my defensiveness on on 

345
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,440
this one and just try to 
understand like what's the like 

346
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,720
what, what is the, the, the 
context, the ideas that are 

347
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,000
coming to mind as you as you 
write about this. 

348
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,400
Yeah. 
So this is so this is downstream

349
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,000
of the argument of right. 
Like if you believe that 

350
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,720
capitalism is push capitalism 
where we convince people to buy 

351
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,360
things they don't necessarily 
need, what you have to do in 

352
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:15,360
that case is you have to append 
morality to capitalism, right? 

353
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,960
And so that's where a lot of 
these concepts have come in. 

354
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:23,200
We've just, we what what's 
basically happened is we have 

355
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:31,760
ceded the ground of capitalism 
being a good thing by saying, 

356
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,760
OK, cool. 
Well, we have to append social 

357
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,720
responsibility. 
We have to append social to 

358
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,400
entrepreneurship. 
We have to append these things 

359
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,160
that are like, yeah, I'm that 
are basically saying, yeah, I'm 

360
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,520
working in a dirty industry, but
I'm trying to do it morally. 

361
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,240
And so that's my objection here.
That's what this is the thing 

362
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,800
that we learned. 
I'm pointing at you, but you can

363
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,160
you can deny learning this, but 
this is these are all of the 

364
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:07,680
things that we learned had the 
substrate argument of capitalism

365
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:13,360
is bad or not good. 
And so we have to append 

366
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,960
morality on top of it, or we 
have to add this thing onto it 

367
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:25,920
to make it good. 
Versus let me, let me frame, 

368
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:31,880
excuse me, try take a stab at at
framing two different ways of 

369
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,920
approaching it. 
One is I'm in a dirty industry, 

370
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,840
but I'm not like everybody else.
Like I do it a better way. 

371
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,920
And, and, and as a result, well,
I don't know, actually, 

372
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,400
actually, I don't know how that 
continues. 

373
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,280
As a result, I deserve to win or
something like, or it's better 

374
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,440
for society. 
If, if I, if my product wins or 

375
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,560
something, another approach is 
there's a better way of doing 

376
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:01,720
business that, that, that has a 
different morality like embedded

377
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:09,760
in the in the business model and
consumers will or will respond 

378
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,440
to that. 
And there's actually there is, 

379
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,240
there is a blocked demand, which
is for a better way of 

380
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,520
operating. 
Is that, is there a difference 

381
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,800
there that that we're teasing or
is it, is it just that you know,

382
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,840
so there's there's but yeah, 
help, help me understand like. 

383
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,000
Make sense of that. 
My my argument is that 

384
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,360
unblocking customers is a social
mission. 

385
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,160
You don't need an extra 1 on top
of it, and in fact when you try 

386
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,680
to add an extra 1 on top of it, 
you stop focusing on just 

387
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,840
unblocking customers. 
Which means you don't succeed, 

388
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,720
right? 
Because your business can only 

389
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,960
succeed if you unblock 
customers. 

390
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:56,280
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. 
Let me let me sit with that for 

391
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:02,840
a second. 
The the way internalizing it 

392
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,720
with with my business, it would 
be like the process of 

393
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,720
unblocking customers in my case 
means giving higher quality 

394
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:18,040
content to children and families
like that's and the unblocking 

395
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,920
piece embedded in it has the 
like social benefit element to 

396
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,600
it. 
Is that, is that the way to 

397
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:25,720
think about this, Rob? 
Yeah, yeah. 

398
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:35,040
Like by virtue of like by virtue
of selling to brands, you are 

399
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:40,600
helping unblock them to reach 
people who like need to hear 

400
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,640
about them. 
You're helping unblock them 

401
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,320
because they they're blocked 
from accomplishing something 

402
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:53,080
that by unblocking them, you are
just doing a like good. 

403
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,040
You are serving them. 
And when you focus on unblocking

404
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,560
them, you build a better product
for them, you build something 

405
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,000
better over time, and you 
continue to serve their needs, 

406
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,240
continue to help them make a ton
of progress. 

407
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,400
Yeah, that the way I would 
probably articulate it in my 

408
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,760
case is like having created like
a a pure product for families 

409
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,680
has created valuable spaces for 
brands to then participate. 

410
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,960
And so the like the most of the 
social mission. 

411
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,440
Well, I guess there's two 
elements of it. 

412
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,840
One is having created something 
that is pure for families, and 

413
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,960
the second side is the selection
of brands that don't cause 

414
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:38,720
conflict in between the presence
of the brand and the the media 

415
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,000
that's being served to kids and 
parents. 

416
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,480
Yeah. 
So like the second thing here, 

417
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,960
so we, we talked about like what
this does to kind of like the 

418
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,520
social entrepreneur, the person 
who thinks that, oh, just 

419
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:57,040
serving customers, that's not 
enough, just unblogging because 

420
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,840
that's, that's not enough. 
That can't be the mission. 

421
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,600
That's, that's, you know, 2 down
in the weeds and the other 

422
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,760
that's not, we have to, we have 
to save the whales. 

423
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,400
We have to do what whatever The 
thing is there. 

424
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,320
What that just makes those 
people, it makes something 

425
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,360
that's already hard 100 times 
harder. 

426
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,960
So it can work. 
Obviously anything can in theory

427
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,640
work. 
That's within the laws of 

428
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,480
physics, but it makes it way, 
way harder for them. 

429
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:28,520
But what it also does is it's 
we've ceded the ground of this 

430
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:34,040
capitalism as a good, as an 
inherently good and moral thing.

431
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,160
We're just saying, yeah, it's 
not good. 

432
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,440
So we have to add social 
missions onto it. 

433
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:44,440
Which the problem with that is 
that it basically takes a bunch 

434
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,320
of people and gives them the 
excuse to say, don't hate the 

435
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:53,560
player, hate the game while they
do stuff that is not good. 

436
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,200
And so it we it's a self 
fulfilling prophecy. 

437
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,480
When you say when you say, yeah,
capitalism isn't good, we have 

438
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,960
to append goodness on to it. 
Well, then the people who are 

439
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,240
trying to append goodness on to 
it don't succeed or like very 

440
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,800
rarely succeed. 
And then everybody else doesn't 

441
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,200
realize it's actually a good 
thing. 

442
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,960
And so they do the like they, 
they don't approach it that way.

443
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,880
They approach it as if it is 
push capitalism and they one, 

444
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,520
they they like don't build good 
things and two, they don't have 

445
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,760
good enough competition because 
everybody just has the wrong 

446
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,880
model in there. 
And so This is why my, my like, 

447
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,840
the thing that just, you know, 
riles me up is, you know, the 

448
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:43,560
kind of we'll just either the 
sweater wearing person who's a 

449
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,840
very moral person in their 
private life and very kind 

450
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,880
person who then goes and rolls 
up youth sports leagues with the

451
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,040
only thing they're going to do 
about it to be triple the 

452
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,000
prices. 
Because it's right like, well, 

453
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,920
capitalism, right? 
Like there's an opportunity 

454
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,960
here. 
Let me attack that opportunity 

455
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,720
and dot dot dot, right like it, 
which is it's basically giving 

456
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:16,880
that person the the ability to 
not like to look at themselves 

457
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,360
in the mirror and say don't hate
the player, hate the game. 

458
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,120
It's a it's a rigged game. 
We've all got to make like, like

459
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:26,480
that's what this is doing. 
What's the what's the 

460
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,280
alternative there? 
We know a bunch of those likes. 

461
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,960
What are wearing folks that 
you're talking about? 

462
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,880
What, what would you rather or 
like? 

463
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,880
What is the system that you 
would rather see exists that 

464
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,480
either that opportunity doesn't 
exist or they don't pursue it or

465
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,440
like, what's the, what's the 
version of reality that you 

466
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,360
think is a, you know, could 
exist if people viewed 

467
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,320
capitalism as a, as a positive, 
as a, you know, a force for a 

468
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:58,080
creative, a positive creation. 
Yeah, so again, I, I, I don't 

469
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,280
know, but my default would would
not be like, I think they that 

470
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,200
kind of person should be 
ostracized and feel bad for 

471
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,560
themselves for about what 
they're doing versus like, you 

472
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,280
know, feeling fine. 
I'm just playing a dirty game or

473
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,480
I'm in a dirty system. 
But I'm a good person, right? 

474
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,120
Like I think that person should 
just feel bad and think 

475
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,160
differently about things. 
But I generally like the 

476
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,680
approach of OK cool, they are 
creating blocks demand. 

477
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,880
When other people see that they 
should go and attack that 

478
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,920
business and go build something 
awesome that unblocks those 

479
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,160
customers. 
And, and I, I like that as the, 

480
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,240
the mechanism because it 
requires no one from the outside

481
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,560
or like no kind of like higher 
power that we have to, you know,

482
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,280
it doesn't, it doesn't require 
kind of like laws or or whatever

483
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,240
to get involved. 
It's just like the dynamics of 

484
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,840
the system solve itself if 
people understand the system 

485
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,840
dynamics. 
Yeah, that's interesting. 

486
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,200
It'll give me something to chew 
on. 

487
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,040
Some of the statements that 
you've made, I would temper 

488
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,240
personally based on my view of 
capitalism and how it works. 

489
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,280
You've come in really strong 
with the capitalism is a for a 

490
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,720
moral force for getting what I 
would say is like capitalism 

491
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:22,400
needs to be embedded in a moral 
understanding of society and 

492
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,760
then it becomes something that 
is that is positive. 

493
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,440
But like that I don't I don't 
see like capitalism solving for 

494
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,800
like the addictiveness of online
poker and like the, you know, it

495
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,880
like that. 
There's some things that that 

496
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,560
don't. 
I don't see how there's like a 

497
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,720
better, more moral business 
model, but that capitalism 

498
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,000
operating in a moral 
understanding of how people like

499
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,600
you talk about shame and things 
like this. 

500
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,480
Like I think that's good. 
Like it has to be connected to 

501
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,680
the way that a society and a 
people want to want to operate 

502
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,400
and want their or their 
communities to be structured and

503
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,920
organized. 
I, I, I actually 100% agree on 

504
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,160
that. 
And then the other thing here is

505
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,680
like capitalism only works, you 
know, if we're not act always at

506
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,560
war and like being invaded and 
some. 

507
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,000
So like there there were, 
there's some kind of like 

508
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,720
underlying things if there's a 
rule of law, right? 

509
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,960
Like there are these kind of 
underlying things that are 

510
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:21,320
enabling that enable capitalism.
But those things without that 

511
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,000
system do not 'cause progress. 
Yeah. 

512
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,680
And that system without those 
things don't doesn't work. 

513
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,880
And so they're kind of tied 
together, but it's the like what

514
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,680
I wanted to spell out is what is
the causal mechanism for new 

515
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:43,840
things coming into into being 
that cause humanity to progress?

516
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,960
And, you know, I think I'm 
falling into the same trap that 

517
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,560
happens in like, you know, 
talking heads, CNN world, which 

518
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:57,120
is failing to appreciate that 
capitalism is doing 94% of the 

519
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,080
work. 
And like, that causal mechanism 

520
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,360
that you're talking about is 
that force taking that for 

521
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,200
granted and focusing on like, 
the other 6% that's like, yeah, 

522
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,040
but like, this thing is broken. 
And it's like, yeah, we could 

523
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,520
find those broken things, but 
first appreciate the huge 

524
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,800
factory that actually is working
powerfully behind the scenes. 

525
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,640
And if you dismantle it, the 
whole the whole thing falls 

526
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,960
apart. 
And that's a really, really good

527
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,400
point that just made another 
thought click in my head, which 

528
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,400
is if you want to solve the 
externalities and all these 

529
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:34,640
other problems, you have to 1st 
understand how the system works.

530
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,240
What, what, how the system. 
It's like, OK, cool. 

531
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:44,000
I tried to assemble a computer 
and it kind of didn't like, I, I

532
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,600
tried to assemble a computer 
from parts. 

533
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,360
I followed the instructions. 
It didn't work. 

534
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,840
And it's like, OK, cool, what do
I do now? 

535
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,560
I don't know, let me just take a
baseball bat to it and break the

536
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,560
like, it's like, it's like, no, 
I actually have to understand 

537
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,520
how a computer works at this 
point in order to know how to 

538
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,560
intervene to make it work better
or, or, or whatever. 

539
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,560
And so it's, it's if we don't 
understand how this works, we're

540
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,960
essentially just going to take 
a, a baseball bat to, to the 

541
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,920
thing because we don't know. 
We don't know what is load 

542
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,560
bearing or not. 
Yeah, fascinating. 

543
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,720
Well, the, you know, my, my 
biggest critique on this one is 

544
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,520
that we didn't drop it 10 days 
before Thanksgiving to arm 

545
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,400
everybody for conversations with
Uncle Fred and Aunt Marge. 

546
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,200
But yeah, this. 
Podcast will make you 

547
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,880
insufferable with your friends. 
On this this this. 

548
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,360
Newsletter. 
Just forward it to your family 

549
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:45,440
and delete your e-mail. 
Rob, other things that we want 

550
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,640
to hit real quick. 
This thing is fun. 

551
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:55,000
We'll be back to, you know, more
normal stuff, but it's, it's 

552
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,320
just cool. 
And like I, I don't know if you 

553
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:58,600
don't like this stuff, I'm 
sorry. 

554
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,680
But as we develop the models 
here, we kind of have to look at

555
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,080
them from a bunch of different 
angles and say, do they work? 

556
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,800
What are the implications? 
Like what, where, where are the 

557
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,320
edge cases on them? 
And so this was a cool thought 

558
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,719
exercise. 
That's been, you know, an 

559
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,560
interesting thing about your 
approach. 

560
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,280
Having been close to you, I 
don't know if we talked about 

561
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,880
this, but exactly what you just 
said, you know, having come from

562
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,360
a math background, it was like 
you would, you would test the 

563
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,159
extremities to understand how 
like a system worked or how a 

564
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:32,719
formula worked. 
And in, in this case, what what 

565
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,320
you're doing is you're taking a,
a model and saying like it. 

566
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,360
We'd think it works at an 
individual startup level or at A

567
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,320
at a small business level or 
growing business level. 

568
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,560
Does it break if we expand it 
dramatically? 

569
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,000
And which is a good stress test 
for, you know, is this, is this 

570
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,320
actually the way that the world 
operates at a micro level? 

571
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,000
To understand at a micro level 
is to test that at a macro 

572
00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,880
level. 
And does, you know, is the thing

573
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,880
that's happening actually a 
summation of all these micro 

574
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,000
things or is there actually 
something else that's going on? 

575
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,200
And so, you know, folks, if you 
if there's holes to poke in 

576
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,760
this, leave it in the comments 
like, you know, poke, poke that 

577
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,400
hole. 
Like what? 

578
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,640
Where does this break in an 
important ways? 

579
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,560
And is there some is there an A 
refinement to Rob's theory that 

580
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:22,800
you know, he needs to be 
conscious of as he can do 

581
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,040
continues to develop this? 
Yeah, What I'm, what I'm trying 

582
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,320
to do too is I'm trying to make 
it simpler over time. 

583
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,360
I'm trying to make it because I 
found, like I found there's a 

584
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,280
lot of different frameworks and 
stuff out there that you'll kind

585
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,120
of touch on different pieces, 
but I think this actually needs 

586
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:43,080
to be ridiculously simple. 
I, I, I don't know why I feel 

587
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,840
that way, but it just feels like
that's the like direction that 

588
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,160
it needs to go in. 
I don't think it needs a lot of 

589
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,200
moving part. 
I think more moving parts the 

590
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,080
system has, the harder it is to,
to, to make work and then to 

591
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,680
whatever. 
So what you can see here is like

592
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,240
we talked a couple weeks ago 
about blocked or coping. 

593
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,880
I actually have now grouped both
of those into blocked because 

594
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,120
it's just right. 
It's I'm blocked from 

595
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,280
accomplishing whatever it is I 
want to accomplish. 

596
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,680
Maybe I'm using something, maybe
I'm not currently about it, but 

597
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,280
I'm what what I'm trying to do 
here. 

598
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,640
And as I'm building this 100 
slide mega presentation thing 

599
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,360
about the book some I'm just 
trying to make it simpler, more 

600
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,360
essential and, and, and so, 
yeah, well, we'll keep going on 

601
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,360
that. 
Awesome. 

602
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,480
Perfect. 
Well, we will catch you next 

603
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:32,880
week, Rob.