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Hey, Rob, welcome back just the 
two of us this week. 

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Yep and also I hit my 400 LB 
deadlift. 

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I know you were. 
Wondering I I know our our 

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listener was wondering that, so 
thanks for clarifying that I. 

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Wanted to get that up front just
to be sure that everyone, 

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everyone was well aware of that.
Hello, You're also looking like 

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kind of like a weightlifter 
boxer with the with the hoodie 

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on right now, so. 
Yeah, I recognize it. 

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I realize that like everything 
about me blends into my 

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background and so my camera is 
like working overtime. 

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Yeah. 
That's hilarious. 

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That's hilarious. 
And hey, maybe before we get 

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into that. 
So this week we're talking about

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buying is weird and rare, which 
I think it's like a gut punch to

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anybody who's in in shoes 
similar to my interviews, like 

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wrestling with with early sales.
But before that, you dropped a 

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three hour voice over for your 
deck. 

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Can you just like I, we 
published it on YouTube. 

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I just want to make sure folks 
saw it. 

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Anything you want to add on that
one? 

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Yeah, I don't know why I keep 
doing this to myself, which is 

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to say I I don't know why I did 
that. 

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I don't know why I made that 
whole deck. 

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I don't. 
It's I just can't not do these 

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things and like the next thing I
see coming at me is I'm going to

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write a textbook at some point. 
Like I, I just, I feel that 

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coming and it's, I don't want to
do it, but I'm going to do. 

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And so yeah, I recorded a three 
hour lecture walking through the

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160 slides in the deck and we 
just kind of put it on YouTube 

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and hope that it is helpful. 
I it is kind of a preview of the

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book that's coming out in July 
now. 

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So watch the lecture or 
pre-order the book. 

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We're also working on some way 
to do a if you pre-order the 

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book, you can join some 
exclusive events with me to see 

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my radiant personality in Q and 
AI know that's don't drop 

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everything you're doing now. 
But but yeah, I don't know. 

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It's, it's, it's, I'm still 
trying to figure this thing out.

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And this is another step. 
It is like this is another step 

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on the path. 
It will be useful to you. 

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It is incomplete, but it is far 
more complete than anything else

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I've read or or seen on this 
topic. 

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And I think today's episode that
we're going to be talking about 

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is a really, really critical 
component of it, too. 

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Yeah, yeah, and maybe a couple 
use cases. 

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One, if you're just with your 
partner on a Friday night here 

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you've you've completed Netflix 
and you you wanna put on a real 

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thriller. 
You've got a lecture about the 

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the the power pole. 
But you know, if for folks that 

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may have read through the deck 
earlier and if there was a 

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section that really jumped out 
and you're like, oh, I think 

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I've, you know, I think I'm miss
diagnosing poor. 

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I'm misunderstanding what 
customers are saying to me or 

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the supply I present is wrong or
something. 

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You know, some part of that 
original presentation. 

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I'd say like, pull this up. 
You can even skip to that part 

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of it and just hear Rob with his
his voice over because the 

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slides are great. 
I love that presentation. 

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I've read it twice now, but 
going through and watching your 

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lecture there elucidated some of
the concepts that I was, my 

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takeaways were different from 
the way that you were talking 

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about it. 
And so it can be a it can be, 

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yeah, just a, it's a, it's a 
resource that's out there. 

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I think 2 weeks ago we did like 
a short, like a short episode, 

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just saying like, go check it 
out. 

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It's related to that same 
presentation. 

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I think it's, I think it's 
called Notes on the Physics of 

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Startup. 
So we'll, we'll put that link in

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the show notes. 
But Rob, if there's nothing else

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we can, we can jump into into 
this week's. 

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So this week we're we're going 
to talk about buying is weird 

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and rare probability blindness 
and its implications. 

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Essentially, it's a reality 
check for anybody that's 

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thinking about products. 
And it is honestly like the post

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that every pre product founder 
should read because it it checks

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the instinct to be optimistic 
and unreasonably optimistic. 

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And that optimism can lead to 
months or years or, you know, 

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just in in Cal people suffering.
So Rob, why don't we get a 

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little bit of context from your 
from your end? 

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Why is this on your mind? 
And who's this one for? 

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Yeah. 
So this one, this one's 

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interesting. 
It's something that I was 

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developing while making the 
slide deck and it's this. 

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I just keep coming back to this 
question of why is it so hard to

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take off? 
Like what specifically is so 

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difficult about this and where 
are we? 

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Where do we keep getting stuck 
in it? 

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This could be pre product. 
I've even seen this with 

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companies that are stuck 1 to 3 
to 5 million in revenue and just

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not growing super fast. 
And I found that there's this 

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underlying assumption, right? 
Like the first, the first 

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assumption that we we really 
tackled like a year ago now was 

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the push theory of the thing 
that causes somebody to buy is 

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me convincing them to buy. 
And that's not the case. 

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Well, the second kind of 
fundamental assumption here is 

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that buying is a common and 
normal thing. 

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And this assumption, like I had 
been, I yeah, it's just like 

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it's a thing that once you kind 
of do this mental exercise of 

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the probability of buying a 
specific product that is 

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relevant to you, that you start 
to be a lot more skeptical and 

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test more and test. 
And, and specifically like it's 

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going to tighten your ICP. 
It's going to tighten your like 

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what you're selling, It's going 
to it's going to cut off a lot 

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of paths where people could buy 
it could benefit them, It could 

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it's going to cut off a lot of 
the like could work paths that 

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probably won't work. 
But if you believe the 

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probabilities are kind of at a 
different order of magnitude 

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than they are, you're going to 
be inclined to go down the could

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work direction versus this is 
saying, given these 

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probabilities, the things that 
could work won't by default. 

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And there's only the small 
sliver of things that where it 

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would be weird if they didn't 
work and they they kind of fit 

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this shape. 
Yeah, why don't we? 

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Do you want to hit some of those
probabilities real, real quick? 

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You you out by them and they 
are. 

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Yeah, sobering is like the the 
word that I would, I would say 

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when when reading through it. 
Yeah. 

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So let me also like I didn't put
this in the post, but I've been 

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thinking about it, which is 
after you buy a product, let's 

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just say you you buy a product 
or a service, right there is 

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there is logic that you can 
apply to that where it's like, 

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Oh yeah, he bought that product 
to solve a problem. 

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He brought that product to get 
value. 

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And then you can say, OK, in 
general he buys products to 

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solve problems. 
In general he buys products to 

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get value and and kind of you 
can apply all these different 

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lenses to it and that will all 
make sense. 

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But what we don't see when we're
looking from that perspective is

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how many other products or 
services he could have bought, 

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but did it in that situation in 
in that particular. 

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And the numbers here are insane.
So if we just think like how 

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many products or services are 
relevant to you right now or at 

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any what today, this week, this 
month of this year, the number 

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and and we could call we call 
relevance is like it. 

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People wouldn't look at you 
weird for buying them, right? 

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They they would. 
It would make sense if you 

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bought them. 
Yeah. 

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Solve problem, fix pain point. 
They give you some sort of 

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value. 
You want them like all of these 

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traditional things. 
OK, if you think what's the 

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universe of products and 
services where it would make 

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sense after the fact if I bought
them, the number is not ten, the

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number is not 100, it's not 
1000. 

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It's it's not 10,000. 
It is almost certainly in the 

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millions and like just the crazy
stats they're they're like, I 

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don't know, I just I did some 
like Yolo Googling. 

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I don't know that these stats 
are real, but they're. 

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Roughly, we're about to see some
consultant math that's that's 

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coming out here. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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I have a three bullet point 
slide for this one. 

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But like, Amazon has hundreds of
millions of skews apparently. 

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OK, if that's off by a factor of
10, cool. 

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Doesn't matter. 
That's still a lot of skews, 

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most of which it would not be 
weird if you bought them. 

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Like, assuming you bought them, 
it wouldn't be. 

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It wouldn't be crazy. 
There are 4 million books 

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published every year. 
That's so just same number. 

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Isn't it crazy? 
It's just absurd. 

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Every time you walk into the 
grocery store, there are like 

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30,000 skews in there that you 
that it. 

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It wouldn't be weird if you 
walked up like some, yes, some 

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subset of them If you walk 
through the checkout line person

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give you a look, but most of 
them, it wouldn't be crazy if 

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you bought them. 
They're 20 million services 

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firms in the US, just in the US 
And like most of those, it 

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wouldn't be weird if you bought 
from it. 

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Yeah. 
And so like those stats should 

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just. 
I think in what one that jumped 

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out to me was like I think you 
said it was, was it 24,000 

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software solutions for like was 
it teaming or like workforce 

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management or something like 
that, like there's. 

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Productivity, software 
productivity. 

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Yeah, Thousands and thousands of
software products out there. 

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
And that number isn't going 

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down. 
Yeah, at the moment, like even 

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in the software space, there are
10s of thousands. 

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And they're right, like. 
And so if you look at it that 

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way, the like, like even if 
you're a crazy person just 

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buying things every second of 
the day, you're, you're going to

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buy the smallest fraction of 
products that it wouldn't be 

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weird if you bought. 
Them, yeah. 

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You're buying the smallest 
fraction. 

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So that's where I'm going to say
buying is super weird and rare. 

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And if you recognize just how 
weird it is for someone to buy 

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something, then you're going to 
behave differently. 

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But if you think that buying is 
a very common thing. 

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Yeah. 
You're going to make some pretty

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serious intellectual errors like
like approach thinking errors 

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that will cause a lot of 
downstream problems. 

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Let's let's hit a couple of 
those. 

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One is you and I'll, I'll rehear
from a couple of these building 

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the wrong products. 
When we assume that buying is 

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not weird and rare, we built 
things that people would be 

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weird to buy. 
Why give give us the, you know, 

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your take on why that happens 
and what it looks like when that

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happens. 
Yeah, So what we'll often see is

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just like I've done this enough 
times that it's awful and, and, 

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and this, this explains it. 
So you will talk to people and 

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you'll do discovery interviews 
or you'll do whatever, right? 

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And you will find, oh, that's a 
huge problem. 

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And you do the translation in 
your head from huge problem, 

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huge pain point to. 
Therefore I will buy it. 

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Yeah. 
And you build a solution to that

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problem or pain point. 
But what you don't realize when 

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you're doing that is that 
they're like the list of huge 

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problems and pain points that 
they're not doing anything about

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and will never do anything about
is massive. 

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And so we're just not. 
So by focusing on these things 

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that are plausible explanations 
for why people bought after they

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bought a thing, but they don't 
predict a purchase. 

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Given the number of things that 
could be purchased, it would be 

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weird if focusing on a big prop,
building a solution to a big 

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problem actually led to a 
purchase. 

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And So what happens is we wind 
up going down this path, 

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building something, people 
getting like people nodding and 

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saying, yeah, that's it. 
That's totally, you totally get 

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it. 
And then them not buying and us 

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not understanding why. 
And it's like, why did we ever 

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assume they would buy? 
Yeah, it's one of the things I 

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wish I could like Take Me Out of
my out of my body or something 

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like some weird thing and like 
being on be on the other side 

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and like observe what I'm 
pitching or the product that the

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web thinking about the product. 
And like, even after I had AI 

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had a call 2 days ago and after 
the call, I was like, oh, like 

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so excited about it. 
And you know, we'll see I this 

225
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one might sell. 
I'm not not really sure. 

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And I was like, Robert, you're, 
you are like choosing to be 

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optimistic about the likelihood 
that this person is going to buy

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this product. 
And like, don't mistake the 

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enthusiasm that you're hearing 
for it for meeting an actual 

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like, yeah, project that they 
are, they're trying and that 

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they're blocked from from 
accomplishing. 

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And so it's just like the the 
default weirdly, I don't know, 

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like maybe somebody can help me,
Rob that you continually help me

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with this. 
But there's got it. 

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Like there's something in our 
brain that's like, it just 

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chooses optimism. 
Maybe it's not. 

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Maybe that's just like you write
about this at the start. 

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Maybe that's why we're founders 
of things. 

239
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,040
It's like there's this innate 
optimism that's required. 

240
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It's a selection bias for human 
beings or for for founders. 

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But yeah, it it like shows up 
not just at the pre products, 

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00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:09,240
but also like after every sale 
and eventually when you, you 

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know, maybe this was your 
experience, Rob, But after 

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running into and being confused 
by enough times where it was 

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00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,520
like, I think they're going to 
buy, but they don't like it 

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starts to set in that, OK, 
something's like that. 

247
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,960
The pain point, like all these 
other things that are popularly 

248
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,040
held, aren't actually indicative
or predictive of what's going to

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work. 
Yeah, yeah. 

250
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I think it's so I think the 
experience here is roughly 

251
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similar and and what I've what 
I've actually been working on is

252
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,000
like this. 
We've been testing this kind of 

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Claude skill that I've been 
creating that's supposed to test

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00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,440
for pull components and give you
give you your, you know how you 

255
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,320
did on the call and was there a 
pull there. 

256
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:58,240
And so that's, that's been fun 
to do, but it's like maybe there

257
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,480
is just some part of this of I 
want it. 

258
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,880
I here's how I want the world to
work, and therefore I'm going to

259
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,760
see the world that way. 
Yeah. 

260
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That could just be part of it 
and and you might have to just 

261
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:17,920
get punched in the face enough 
times by that not working and 

262
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,000
you haven't do the loop of OK, 
I'm going to try something else 

263
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,800
that I'm sure is going to work 
and then it doesn't work. 

264
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,560
And you just have to do that 
enough times to say, OK, I 

265
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,520
actually don't like I've had the
the optimism beaten out of me 

266
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,840
now and I just want to do 
something that works. 

267
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,480
And so how do I think about 
something that works that that 

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00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,760
could be the case. 
I my hope my is probably a dumb 

269
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,440
hope. 
This is how I want. 

270
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:50,320
This is my dumb optimism is that
if you like I I just don't think

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00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,960
we understand the shape of 
reality. 

272
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,000
Yeah. 
And I don't think 

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00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:05,240
entrepreneurship education has 
done a good job explaining this.

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00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,800
I think if you actually 
understand how weird and rare it

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00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,240
is for somebody to buy a product
that is relevant to them, you're

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00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,800
going to, like, think a little 
differently. 

277
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,720
Yeah, it's like it's in in the 
post and it's just right. 

278
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,319
Like your likelihood of buying a
relevant product in a given year

279
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:28,840
is roughly on the order of you 
being struck by lightning in a 

280
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,280
given year. 
Yeah. 

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00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,560
And so it's like if if you just 
embrace that and say, OK, that's

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00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:41,400
weird. 
Yeah, I need to now look, even 

283
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,480
if I build something that's 
relevant, even if I focus on a 

284
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,320
problem da da, da, da, da like 
that, it's still going to be 

285
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,880
weird if they buy from me. 
Given that, I need to approach 

286
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,920
this differently and think about
the conditions under which 

287
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,320
somebody would be weird not to 
buy, look for those, and then 

288
00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,400
try to convince them not to buy 
from me and see if they fight. 

289
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:02,600
What does? 
What does that mean? 

290
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,600
Yeah, yeah. 
So this is a, this is a post I'm

291
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,840
working on for the future, but 
it's like what you talked about,

292
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,800
what I saw, what I've seen in 
some of your calls. 

293
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:11,600
Here we. 
Here we go. 

294
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,480
Here we go. 
Is you ask like positive 

295
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,840
questions and everyone asks like
positive questions. 

296
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,800
Would this be of benefit to you?
Yeah, It's like, yes, of course,

297
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:24,800
here's how this would be of 
benefit to me. 

298
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,640
But it's like there's infinite 
other things that could be of 

299
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,280
benefit to you that you're not 
doing. 

300
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,840
Yeah. 
And so you have to flip the 

301
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,880
question and basically say, 
could you just do nothing here? 

302
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,920
Like, yeah, they have to 
convince you that they have 

303
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,040
pulled. 
Yeah, I like that. 

304
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,080
I'm going to, I'm going to start
using that immediately because 

305
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,920
I, I totally agree. 
I feel like I lead the witness a

306
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,280
little bit and they're trying to
be nice with, you know, our our 

307
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,880
American personalities. 
The I want to hit another one 

308
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,840
that that that you hit. 
So we talked about you're 

309
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,680
building the wrong product, also
misdiagnosing why our products 

310
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,080
aren't aren't working. 
And I'm going to read this real 

311
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,760
quick and then Rob jump in and 
and you know, rage rant or 

312
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,040
something about it. 
But because we think they should

313
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,200
buy with the implicit assumption
that buying is not weird or 

314
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,120
rare, we misdiagnose what's 
happening in this situation. 

315
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,400
Usually we're bad. 
Usually we think we're bad at 

316
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,360
sales or our product isn't good 
enough. 

317
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,160
All right, go off on why, why 
those are wrong. 

318
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,480
Yeah. 
So, OK, so by default, if 

319
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,480
somebody doesn't buy something, 
it doesn't mean your product 

320
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,920
wasn't valuable enough. 
It doesn't mean you weren't good

321
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,720
at sales. 
It almost always means they 

322
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,680
weren't prioritizing something 
relevant because there are 

323
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,200
infinite things they could 
prioritize. 

324
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,640
They were in a situation where 
they could not prioritize this 

325
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,800
thing and oh like, or if they're
prioritizing something relevant,

326
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,640
their existing options are good 
enough. 

327
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:03,120
Like if those two things are not
true, they would be weird to buy

328
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:08,200
your product. 
And it's it's no amount of 

329
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,240
changing your product, no amount
of sales skills and techniques 

330
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,680
will change this. 
Yeah, sure. 

331
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,520
If you get, if you get 10X 
better at sales, you might 

332
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:25,320
convert 5 percent, 10% of people
who aren't in the the pull 

333
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,720
situation. 
You're not going to convert all 

334
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,160
of them. 
And in fact, if you get really 

335
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,440
good at sales, what you're going
to realize is you're selling to 

336
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,120
the wrong kind of person in the 
wrong kind of situation, usually

337
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:39,200
with the wrong kind of 
description of a thing. 

338
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,680
But if you think buying is a 
common thing, because obviously 

339
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,440
Anthropic's selling a ton, 
right? 

340
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,240
A lot of people are like people.
It seems like people are buying 

341
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,800
a lot of things. 
So buying, is it this common 

342
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,040
thing? 
They're just not buying my 

343
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,280
product. 
And so it must be something 

344
00:20:55,280 --> 00:21:01,120
about me or something about my 
product, which is not the case 

345
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:05,400
given that there are infinite 
things, infinite other things 

346
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,960
they are also not buying. 
Yeah, totally. 

347
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,160
I maybe that that resonates with
listener and and in some ways 

348
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,120
definitely resonates with with 
mine like that. 

349
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,720
And for me like in the in the 
marketing space, it's like when 

350
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,600
it when I reframe from like my 
product is perfect for this 

351
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:27,040
company to this marketing agency
or this CPG brand has a trillion

352
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,280
options for ways to reach 
consumers. 

353
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,520
What what would it would be 
bizarre if if like they went 

354
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,640
with ours like that, you know, 
that actually is kind of 

355
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,040
liberating and in some sense, 
like overwhelming in one sense, 

356
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,520
liberating in the sense that, 
oh, OK, like what I have is not 

357
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,160
a personal problem. 
It's like it's an understanding 

358
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,800
of what they're trying to 
accomplish problem and. 

359
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,480
And like in your case, I 
remember I was just watching one

360
00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:00,000
of your calls like earlier, and 
the person was like, yeah, I'd 

361
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,880
never respond to cold outreach. 
This is the first cold outreach 

362
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,360
I've responded to in like 7 
years. 

363
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,120
Yeah. 
And the reason I responded is 

364
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:16,280
because we're in a situation, 
yeah, where we're trying to find

365
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:21,880
for one of our brands some non 
traditional ways to reach 

366
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:23,800
families. 
Yeah. 

367
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,480
And we haven't found good 
options for that. 

368
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,360
And so like in that situation, 
you just show up and say hi and 

369
00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:34,360
they're like, great, what's 
next, right? 

370
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,200
Yeah, exactly. 
And even in that case, even 

371
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,240
satisfying that it's, there's 
still an element of weirdness 

372
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,160
too. 
If they act, if it actually like

373
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,160
ended up being like I, there's 
a, there's a step there because 

374
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,680
she's not the buyer, it's that 
she's working with the buyer. 

375
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:54,040
And so there's like a OK, I, I 
see the pool on your end. 

376
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,680
How do I make it so that it's 
like actually not just achieving

377
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,760
you, it's like achieving like 
the brand needs helping you 

378
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,160
communicate that and. 
OK. 

379
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,680
And then the then the thing here
is in that situation, your job 

380
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:12,520
is not to sell, your job is not 
to it is like kind of to help 

381
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,160
them buy. 
But when they're in a situation 

382
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,520
like this, your job is really to
not convince them not to buy. 

383
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,160
It's like the, the there is just
like this massive gulf between 

384
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:31,040
what we think sales is, which is
convincing them to buy, which 

385
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,720
which is what you do when you 
don't have product market fit, 

386
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,880
when you haven't found pull to 
when you have found pull the 

387
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,440
job. 
And this is the reason why like 

388
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,600
so many, if you watch sales 
calls of companies with extreme 

389
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,480
product market fit, they could 
do anything in those sales calls

390
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,120
and people will buy stuff. 
And it's basically like we, they

391
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:57,960
had such strong pull, AKA they 
were trying to do something and 

392
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,200
their existing options just 
didn't work to such an extent 

393
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,600
that they, although it seems 
like the seller tried to 

394
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,280
convince them not to buy, they 
were unable to convince them not

395
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,920
to. 
And so the kind of just entirety

396
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,200
like all the tactics, all the 
like, just the physics of the 

397
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,120
situation totally changed. 
And that's that's kind of where 

398
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,000
we talk about from push to pull.
That's fascinating. 

399
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,680
I love it and I'm actually kind 
of happy you brought it and that

400
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,960
that example. 
That's a good reminder that if 

401
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,320
there is pull, you can dissuade 
somebody from from it if you're 

402
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,120
if you're stupid enough or like 
a didn't go like me. 

403
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,960
Rob, let's keep this one. 
Try to keep this one maybe 

404
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:41,880
brief. 
Is there what are the takeaways 

405
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,840
for you know, founders that you 
know, what should they do as a 

406
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,360
result of like this insight? 
Yeah, I'd say two things. 

407
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:55,600
One is just like think about go 
on a bike ride, lift some 

408
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,840
weights, do do something while 
thinking about how unlikely it 

409
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,680
is for somebody to buy your 
product even if it's relevant to

410
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,520
them. 
And then ask yourself the 

411
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:16,040
question, OK, given that, who 
would be weird not to buy our 

412
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:23,920
product and define your ICP that
way? 

413
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,760
Then go find them and see if you
are right. 

414
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:35,080
Yeah, I love it that that's all 
the and and lifting weights you 

415
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,440
they can also at the same time 
think about how you you hit 400 

416
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,480
on your squatter deadlift or. 
Deadline like that, if I have 

417
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:47,320
400 on squat, I don't know, I, 
I, I don't know what would be 

418
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,760
different, but I'd be able. 
To talk about it on the podcast.

419
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,120
As well. 
I'll let you know, Well, you 

420
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,320
know, if we keep doing this 
podcast for the next 10 years, 

421
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:54,800
maybe. 
Awesome. 

422
00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,840
Again, the the sub stack is 
called buying is weird and rare.

423
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,080
Drop your comment if you've got 
feedback on on this one or if 

424
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,960
there's things that come to mind
or things you want to challenge 

425
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,480
Rob on, please drop it in the 
either the sub stack or on the 

426
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,560
YouTube or or Spotify. 
Anything else, Rob, before we 

427
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,720
let folks go? 
Nope. 

428
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:15,920
Awesome. 
All right, we'll catch everybody

429
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:16,320
next week.