1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,360 Hey, Rob, welcome back. We've got something special 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:04,000 today. Yes, we do. 3 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,760 We will see. I'm sure it will go well for 4 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,040 because we have guests, but I'm sure you and I will be a train 5 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:11,600 wreck because we've never had. Guests before. 6 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,560 Yes, we typically are. Yeah. 7 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,920 Why don't you give us a little bit of context and then I can 8 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,760 introduce our guests and yeah, we can Start learning about 9 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,160 their pool journey. Yeah, cool. 10 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,800 Yeah, so this week we're doing something special, which is the 11 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,440 Rock Salt team reached out with a case study on their 12 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,480 transformation from kind of push to pull. 13 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,840 And it's like, wow, this is this is cool. 14 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,040 This should way better than what I was going to write about 15 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:38,560 anyway. So I was like, all right, let's 16 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,960 just let's do it. And so we wrote a wrote a post 17 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:43,840 on it and going to going to chat about it here. 18 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,280 Yeah, and we get requests all the time for like real life. 19 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,800 What is what it what's the experience of founders like? 20 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,400 Can we do more case studies like how do we what what actually 21 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,040 happens when founders and when companies are implementing the 22 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,240 pool methodology and their sales process, especially early on. 23 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,600 And so I think this is awesome because we're going to get a 24 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,840 chance to see like in rocks waltz case, what changed? 25 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,880 How did it evolve? What what were they tactically 26 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,960 doing on a day-to-day? Are are there other things that 27 00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:16,280 Rob that you would like? Who is this for and who is, you 28 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:17,880 know, what are some of the things that we might cover? 29 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,320 Yeah, I think and and the Rock Salt team can correct me, but I 30 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:28,880 think like what this story shows is some extremely competent and 31 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:34,200 effective people go at an early stage startup but had traction 32 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:39,200 not not at 0 early stage startup that's growing, that's doing 33 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:44,720 well. How pull thinking can actually 34 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,920 transform and help you grow way faster and like help make the 35 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:54,240 business a lot more more intuitive, have customers RIP 36 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,400 the product out of your hands and, and all those good things. 37 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:57,880 And so I think this will be helpful. 38 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,160 If you're at 0, obviously this this will be interesting because 39 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,400 you probably have an idea and are trying to find pull around 40 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,960 it. But if you're also growing and 41 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,479 just want to go vertical, I think this story will be really 42 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:10,479 cool too. Yeah, totally agree. 43 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:12,800 And we're going to we're going to hit choosing your ICP, we're 44 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,920 going to hit messaging, we're going to hit discovery, we're 45 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:17,320 going to hit maybe a little bit of unfolding like there's a 46 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:19,760 there's a bunch in here that excited to dig into. 47 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,440 Well, with with maybe it's no further ado. 48 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,400 Arjun and Anita were a brother and sister here, Arjun Morthy 49 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,600 and Anita Morthy, who are honestly that would terrify me. 50 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:31,280 I I could not Co found the business. 51 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,040 I'd love my siblings. I'm pretty sure it would break 52 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,000 my family like trying to start a business with with one of them. 53 00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:41,000 But let me read a little bit of y'all's background and then I 54 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,560 will pitch it to you to give us some of the context on Rock 55 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,240 Salt. This is from Rob's Substack post 56 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,400 for for this week, which is titled Rock Salt's Journey from 57 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,440 Push to Pull. We'll put the link in the show 58 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,160 notes. The Co founders. 59 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,440 I'm reading from Rob's words. The Co founders, Arjun and Anita 60 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,360 are brother and sister power duo. 61 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,400 Both are brilliant and accomplished Waterloo computer 62 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,840 engineers, former consultants and MBA with decades of 63 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,840 experience in fast growing tech companies. 64 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,760 Arjen is a Graduate School of Business at Stanford alum and 65 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,720 was VP of Business Development and Channel Sales at HubSpot in 66 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,480 its early years and is a multi time founder with a previous 67 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:24,480 startup exit to Yahoo. Anita is a Sloan MBA and long 68 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,120 time marketing leader across a bunch of tech companies with a 69 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,640 computer engineering background. All right, I'm not going to try 70 00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:32,560 to describe your company. Can you do that for us? 71 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:35,800 Sure. I'll take a shot at it. 72 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,280 First of all, thank you very much Rob and Robert for having 73 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,640 us on. Then hearing those BIOS, it 74 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,840 always, it's a little bit unnerving, I think, because it 75 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,800 seems like, OK, some of those things sound cool, but boy, if 76 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,280 you knew the story behind so much of it, you'd be like, 77 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,880 actually it wasn't that impressive. 78 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,720 By the way, you got very forgetting Lucky. 79 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,840 So it's anyways, it's whatever, it's ACV. 80 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,040 It's ACV. But if anyone's listening, it's 81 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:05,840 not as glamorous as that might sound. 82 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,080 And by the way, the part about working with my sister, just 83 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:11,800 because you brought that up, Robert, I think it's 84 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,600 interesting, Anita. And I've always been super 85 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,720 close. Like she's been my big sister 86 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:18,760 always. She is my big sister and she's 87 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,160 six years older. And so I think that each gap 88 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,680 plus the fact that girls are always smarter than boys, as we 89 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,520 all know. So then it was just like it was 90 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,760 much easier to just do whatever she said and then she would 91 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:30,680 believe me a little bit if I didn't so that I just did what 92 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,720 she said going up. And I don't know, we've always 93 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,760 worked really well together. It's also really good because 94 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,960 with siblings you can argue and then like two months later, you 95 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:40,720 just get back to it like nothing ever happened. 96 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,280 Because I mean, obviously we're trying to solve for the company. 97 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:45,520 It's not like we're trying to boost each other's, you know, 98 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,200 like break each other down because of our egos. 99 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,320 So weirdly, I think for us, it works much better. 100 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,840 If anything, I'd be terrified of doing this with my spouse. 101 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:55,920 Good Lord, that would break up the household. 102 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,560 But I think the sibling is kind of, you know, we go off to 103 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:00,720 separate houses at the end of the day. 104 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,120 I think that's probably a good thing anyways. 105 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:08,000 OK, so about rock salt. Yeah, we're a start up at the 106 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,680 Bay Area. We help CEOs and executives 107 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,160 raise their visibility in their industry. 108 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,040 Typically this is in places where their buyers hang out, 109 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,760 LinkedIn, Reddit, and increasingly AI search results 110 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,840 because those sites, LinkedIn and Reddit. 111 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,280 So we help these CEOs and executives find relevant 112 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:29,000 conversations that their buyers are already reading and having. 113 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:34,560 Show them how to be there, how to guide the industry's thoughts 114 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,200 with or their the industry's viewpoints by sharing their own 115 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,040 thoughts regularly. Just being out there, being more 116 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,040 visible, being more helpful. And the thesis behind this, in 117 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,760 case you're wondering, is that these days a lot of buyers, they 118 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,280 just don't trust most things that comes out of companies. 119 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:53,320 They're like, yeah, it's all a little too polished, a little 120 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,920 too AI. What they do seem to trust a lot 121 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,840 now are people and increasingly the people that really have deep 122 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:03,680 expertise or experience in a subject area. 123 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,120 So what we're saying to most B2B companies is hey, your best 124 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,840 marketing asset is probably your founder and your executives. 125 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,520 Get them out there. Get make it easy for them to get 126 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,200 out there. We know it's they're very busy. 127 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,240 And so that's really what Rock Sol was. 128 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,400 We said we'll make it super easy for you to get these amazing 129 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,640 founders and executives and subject matter experts out there 130 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,120 because that's who your buyers will trust the most. 131 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,400 So that's it in a nutshell. How do I do any? 132 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,040 You did very good, Arjun. Can I ask you a question because 133 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:37,040 you both have like, I feel like the perfect background. 134 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:40,280 Each of you has like the perfect background to come together and 135 00:06:40,280 --> 00:06:43,080 build this company. Could you talk maybe about your 136 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,360 path to this thesis? I know Arjun, you're at HubSpot 137 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,400 early. You saw inbound Anita, you've 138 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,840 you are marketer, you are marketing, you are all of that 139 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:54,160 stuff. So I don't know, maybe talk to 140 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,760 me about like how this thesis came to be? 141 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,840 Yeah, I know that's a really good question and actually it it 142 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:02,840 will. I think it's helpful to have 143 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:05,520 that context. So basically I have been a user 144 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,120 like I'm a marketer and you know, in every company that I 145 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:14,080 worked with, worked in marketing was all about generating 146 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,560 awareness, trust and credibility at one level. 147 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,240 And then obviously sales enablement and helping sales 148 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,400 right on the first part of it, awareness and trust and 149 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:30,560 credibility. The the thing that I found was 150 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,320 the best way to build that is when I put the people who are 151 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:39,600 most credible and knowledgeable in conferences, on webinars, in 152 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,840 front of prospects, in a customer board meeting, 153 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,040 etcetera. There was instant trust and 154 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,920 credibility because you're speaking about the problem space 155 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,520 which you have in common with the customer rather than 156 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,720 speaking about the product that a salesperson might be trying to 157 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,400 pitch or a marketing person trying to push the company line 158 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,280 without really going deep into details. 159 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,800 So the subject matter experts I have always seen as the best way 160 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,000 for US marketing to help build credibility in the space, right. 161 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,120 So I have this in the back of my mind, but and when I saw the 162 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:16,120 inbound playbook of create great content, optimize it for SEO, 163 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,880 put it in Google, and you will have traffic start to 164 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:25,000 disintegrate because you can now use AI to pump out tons of 165 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,400 content. So there's an explosion of 166 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,480 content. And second, there aren't that 167 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,400 many people going to Google to search. 168 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:36,480 So I was like, Oh my God, like this huge part of marketing's 169 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,919 playbook, the inbound journey that HubSpot perfected, I was 170 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:43,360 like, I don't see how this is going to work anymore. 171 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,560 So that's where I was coming from. 172 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,720 And then Arjun obviously came from the platform side, having 173 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:56,000 seen how HubSpot build that that movement around inbound. 174 00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:01,560 And he was like, that made sense in that world of Google's being 175 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:05,160 the dominant player. But how does, how is trust going 176 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,560 to be now established in this new world where content is now, 177 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,400 you know, dime a dozen and no one even believes it doesn't 178 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,360 anymore? And so, you know, his thinking 179 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,440 and my, my sort of background in, in being, in putting experts 180 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,080 in my marketing, whether it wasn't webinars or a Gartner 181 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,440 conference or whatever, was kind of the genesis of the idea 182 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,280 behind rock salt, which is that people will always trust people. 183 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,520 And so how can we make it easy for companies that don't have 184 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,040 huge budgets to be in Gartner conferences and all these big 185 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,760 plays to basically build credibility using their best 186 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,160 people? I'll add a little bit more color 187 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,000 to it as well. When I finished the last 188 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,200 company, the factual, it was a news company, brutally hard, 189 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,160 brutally hard. And we got lucky and and we got 190 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:02,080 a decent exit to Yahoo, but it wasn't like a home run, right? 191 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:03,440 Let's just be honest, it wasn't a home run. 192 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,560 It was like a single or a double in baseball prolance. 193 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,920 And so I I felt like there's a little bit of unfinished 194 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,040 business and honestly, I'd never want to do another startup. 195 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,880 It was so damn hard. I was like, this is a terrible 196 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,640 idea. And I wrote this blog post after 197 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,960 we sold. It's actually on Darmesh's site. 198 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:19,320 Darmesh is the Co founder of HubSpot. 199 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,160 He runs this blog Call on Startups. 200 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,200 So I wrote this and I said 5 mistakes that I made as a first 201 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,880 time founder still there, you can read it. 202 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,720 And one of them was not having a marketer on the founding team. 203 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:37,240 And I said it was a terrible mistake because marketing is 204 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,240 really hard. It's very tough for a founder to 205 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:45,360 do product and marketing. Marketing is not the stupid 206 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,520 mechanical stuff of like post three times a week and run this 207 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,760 performance ad and tweak this copy. 208 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,800 No, marketing is the damn strategy. 209 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,280 It's actually the most important part of making this thing work. 210 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,160 And I'm not that great at it. And so I said in his blog post, 211 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,880 I said, I never want to do another startup, but if I ever 212 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,520 do it, I am for sure getting a marketer as a Co founder. 213 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:08,960 I'm not doing this again without it. 214 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,880 And then when I was at Yahoo and I, I still had this like 215 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,440 unfinished business. Maybe I should do this one more 216 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,200 time. And then he was thinking about 217 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,160 what you do next. I was like, Oh my God, if I do 218 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,800 this, I'm doing it with her. I'm not no other way to do this. 219 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,120 So that was a big part of it. And actually, you know, for, for 220 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,120 folks that are listening, I have immense respect for good 221 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:36,080 marketing for this reason, because it, it maybe one thing 222 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,000 that HubSpot kind of inadvertently did is it made 223 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,840 marketing feel mechanical. Hey, just write some blog posts 224 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,760 and you do this nurturing sequence and landing page and 225 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,960 all these mechanical things. And, and yes, that's the Opsy 226 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,720 part, but don't forget that marketing is the strategy. 227 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,040 I mean, there's a reason why Apple thinks marketing is so 228 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,560 damn important that they marry marketing and product, right? 229 00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:59,520 And so that that was like the big thing for me after the first 230 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,920 time is like, if I'm doing this, I need a really good marketer 231 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,200 and not like a mechanical person, someone that's driving 232 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,960 strategy and we're going to Duke it out on where to take the 233 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,840 company every day because that that's what I need is that 234 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,360 sparring partners. So that's why I think actually 235 00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:18,040 the partnership works is especially because I think I as 236 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,760 a CEO the first time would have been terrible if I had the 237 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,480 marketer because I don't think I would have respected the 238 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,240 marketer the same way. But after having getting my ass 239 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:29,680 kicked publicly for six years, I respect marketing a lot more and 240 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:30,840 I think that makes it much better. 241 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,120 I love that. Yeah. 242 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:32,800 Can I? Can I? 243 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,200 OK, so we're at this point now where you're just getting drawn 244 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,160 back in. You're like, all right, I have 245 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:44,600 some unfinished business, Anita, and you have this thesis that's 246 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,240 developing. It's coming in and you're 247 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,200 you're, you know, you go, you raise some money. 248 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,640 Businesses like like talk me through businesses like you're 249 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,120 building product, you're doing the marketing things. 250 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,320 That's point A point B is you talk to me. 251 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,400 Can can we maybe, can you maybe walk me through the the path 252 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,240 from A to B and RC? We can we can jump to you or was 253 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,320 there something you want to? Do just just real quick before 254 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,960 we move on, I, I, I want to make sure like the idea for or the 255 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,560 way that I'm conceptualizing rock salt to make sure that I, I 256 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:20,200 understand it correctly. Like I think Rob might be kind 257 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,480 of the perfect example. Like he ran a web page, like 258 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,600 when you're talking Anita, he he ran his web page was basically a 259 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,200 Google doc for like months and hit almost all, almost everybody 260 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,720 who's listening to this, who's reading his who's his blog found 261 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,800 him because he was posting his own thoughts on LinkedIn. 262 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,240 And So what you're saying with rocks, with rock solid is like 263 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,480 that's the model going forward. It's like that new insights, 264 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,040 building your own audience, communicating authentically, 265 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,320 like no BS or like speaking directly to to what the ICP is. 266 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,520 You got it. You got it exactly. 267 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:57,000 And you know, every company has those people. 268 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,280 They don't always. They don't have to always be the 269 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,440 founder or CEO. It could be that like in my last 270 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,760 cybersecurity company, it was the VP of product. 271 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,240 He was a person that we would put in webinars and tell them to 272 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,160 go and speak in conferences. So he would have been the person 273 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,840 that we would say, you know, you're doing that once a year or 274 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,000 twice a year. Meanwhile, you have these 275 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:22,720 platforms where your buyers are engaging and active 24/7, 365 276 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,200 days. Why are you, why are we not 277 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,440 enabling these people to be in those discussions and building 278 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,960 credibility? Why are we not doing that when 279 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,440 we know it works? Well, that's the genesis of Rock 280 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,440 Salt. Yeah, maybe the one other thing 281 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,840 that's interesting about this, Robert is a good expert in a 282 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,160 company and I suspect Rob embodies this to some degree. 283 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,400 Isn't always trying to sell that at some level, they're just 284 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,560 sharing really good information and trying to be helpful. 285 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,560 That's the thing that builds the trust. 286 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,080 It's like, you know, a really good executive understand the 287 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,280 market's really big and the thing that I sell, it's good. 288 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,440 And if you need it, it's going to work like, but I don't have 289 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,280 to be there all the time bashing you over the head with the thing 290 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,560 that I'm trying to sell. And so I'm just putting good 291 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,840 information out there. If it's relevant, you'll come 292 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,200 and if it's not, you won't and, and we'll get on with it. 293 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,360 I think the good executives know that. 294 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,360 By the way, the good sales people know that too. 295 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,040 And So what we're trying to do is to say you have a bunch of 296 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,360 people that are so good at the thing they do, just get them out 297 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,520 there. That's it. 298 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,640 They're they're wonderful when they're on stage, on LinkedIn, 299 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,920 on Reddit, whatever. Do that regularly. 300 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,600 Be helpful, man. You'll build so much trust 301 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,640 better than anything else that you could put out, which is like 302 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,840 a sign up for my product thing. Like there's a place for that, 303 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,920 but your people have a lot more credibility to build. 304 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:43,120 Cool. I love it. 305 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,800 Rob, sorry to interrupt jump jump back in there with your 306 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,320 question. Through your question on A to B, 307 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,640 yeah. So The thing is we were at this 308 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,280 stage where we were have like we had just sort of come out of 309 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,160 stealth. And so we had a lot of attention 310 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,040 because we got funded by, you know a tier one BC. 311 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,480 So we got a lot of initial traction and we would talk to 312 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,120 people and we would like everybody would seem really 313 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,720 interested. We got lots of different types 314 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,240 of people and everybody was really interested and everybody 315 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,520 wanted to try the product. And so we were in this place 316 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,760 where we were having a lot of calls, having a lot of 317 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,720 conversations and even closing a lot of sales calls. 318 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,240 But then the usage would Peter off and then, you know, like 319 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,840 they would just fall off the, the sort of the map. 320 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:43,080 And we were trying to figure out why that is like, and there were 321 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,800 a number of different issues, but that was mainly the issue. 322 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,040 And I think Arjun and I being as close as we are, like, you know, 323 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,200 when you're founders, you think your product is the best and 324 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,640 you, you know exactly why you're building it and what it does and 325 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,280 the pain it solves and you just assume everybody just gets it. 326 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,280 And so, you know, I, I thought it would be helpful and at that 327 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,119 time that, you know, that's when Lightspeed had put out something 328 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,560 about Rob doing the sales coaching thing. 329 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,119 And I thought especially because I have only a marketing 330 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,880 background and not a sales background, I wanted to, you 331 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,040 know, see if I could get some coaching on, on how to do sales 332 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,760 better. So that was really my initial 333 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,800 thought was I just need to do sales better because I'm a 334 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,720 founder and I'm going to be doing a lot of selling. 335 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,040 And so that's when I went. So it was a very simple reason 336 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:39,160 that I went to Rob first. But my very first call with Rob 337 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:46,880 made me realize that even before sales coaching, they were a 338 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:52,480 bunch of things in how we did the calls that needed to be 339 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:58,200 fixed in terms of the discovery, who we thought was the ICP and 340 00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:59,720 the messaging that we were doing. 341 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,960 So then I pulled in Arjun and I said, hey, Arjun, I know you 342 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,360 have sales, you have more sales experience. 343 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:12,160 But I think ROK can help us to clarify and focus these three 344 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:18,080 things so that we can spend more time with the right people 345 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,600 rather than spend a lot of time with the wrong people, if that 346 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,280 makes sense. Yeah, that makes that makes 347 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:24,640 sense. I guess. 348 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,040 Let me let me then push this to Arjun, which is Arjun. 349 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,680 You worked at HubSpot. You're the head of some, some 350 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,880 fancy thing that had sales included in it. 351 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:39,280 You're like and also you're way again, I will repeat, you're way 352 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,600 smarter than both of the Robs on this call. 353 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,640 What are you? What was the kind of was there 354 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:46,960 like a mental blocker here? What? 355 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,520 What was the thing that I don't know, Maybe tell me about what 356 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,400 was in your brain at this point? So the truth is I was a little 357 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,560 skeptical. I'm skeptical of everything. 358 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,080 So it's not a reflection on you. I'm just skeptical of everyone 359 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,640 and everything. I think by nature. 360 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,040 And so when he was like, we should talk to Rob, I'm like, 361 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,880 yeah, OK, we'll see. And then. 362 00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:09,400 But I knew that it would be good for her because like she said, 363 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,040 she didn't have much sales experience. 364 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,120 And I'm like, that's good. You should a third party is 365 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:14,400 always helpful, was helpful to me. 366 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:20,000 It's going to be helpful to you. The we got one expected benefit 367 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,480 and one unexpected benefit from talking to you. 368 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:29,640 The expected benefit was huge in that we kept going back and 369 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,520 forth between three different Icps. 370 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,240 They were CE OS, they were CM OS, and they were subject matter 371 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,760 experts. And all of them seem to like our 372 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,760 product. And when we get on the phone, 373 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,000 they all would kind of get it. And the CM OS especially, 374 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,160 they're like, I'm sold, I'm sold. 375 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,280 Like, we just have to get my CEO to do this. 376 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,520 But then when we talked to you and we went through like, OK, So 377 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,080 what happens after that call? And we're like, yeah, the CMO 378 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,480 usually chases CEO and often times he or she doesn't get on 379 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,040 it or is not bought in. And the SME, it's not critical 380 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,600 because they have other stuff, but they'll do what they want 381 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,920 to. And then it seems so obvious in 382 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,760 retrospect. But what you really helped us 383 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,880 figure out was, you know what, just pick the CEO as the ICP and 384 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,280 the rest of the stuff. Don't worry about it like 385 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,680 they'll figure it out. See CM OS especially, they're 386 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,160 smart, they'll see the copy, they'll get it. 387 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,360 But if you pick one ICP, then everything you can focus around 388 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,240 that ICP, the messaging will be tight. 389 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,440 Your outbound, if you do outbound will be tight. 390 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,000 The expectations around their lifestyle, how they'll use the 391 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,680 product will be clearer. Everything just sort of fell 392 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,440 into place. So again, it seems maybe very 393 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,200 obvious to people who are listening, but I found that very 394 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,840 helpful when you helped us eliminate 2 out of three people 395 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,440 that we kept talking to and said, no, no, no, just focus on 396 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,640 this one. The unexpected benefit that we 397 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,720 got. And I might be jumping a little 398 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:56,000 bit ahead in the story, but the pull framework, I thought a lot 399 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,840 about why that was working. And I think what I've come out 400 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,680 with is that it actually reflects the buyer journey that 401 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,000 Anita and I and Rock Salts kind of built on, which goes 402 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,640 something like this. Your buyers are finding out 403 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,240 about stuff all over the place, LinkedIn, Reddit, scrolling, 404 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,400 reading. And if they see something that's 405 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,600 interesting, they will go and do their own homework. 406 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,520 There's really not much you can do about it. 407 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,040 They're going to read more. They'll click on your profile, 408 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,800 they'll go and ask AI some questions, they'll Google you, 409 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,760 they'll read your site, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 410 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,200 They really don't want to talk to humans. 411 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,640 They just want to get on with it. 412 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:37,360 So when someone decides to talk to a human, they're probably 413 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:40,240 quite bottom of the funnel. They've done a lot of research. 414 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,320 They figured a lot of stuff out. Let's get on with it. 415 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,720 And Rob, I don't know if you recall, I shared like a some 416 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,000 call recordings before we started talking with you and 417 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,920 God, they're painful. And I would spend like the 1st 418 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,560 10 minutes telling people like the thesis of rock salt And This 419 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,680 is why we were funding. It's going to be great and 420 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,320 marketing change, sales changing. 421 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,280 And you asked you're like, why are you doing this? 422 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,720 And I'm like, I don't know, I thought wouldn't be like, that's 423 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,040 when they'll be bought into rock salt And you're like, I don't 424 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,720 think that's necessary. And you? 425 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,120 Were that's a surprisingly deep question. 426 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:18,720 It's like, it's like existential like insecurities sometimes with 427 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,960 founders, but. Anyways, I know, I know, like 428 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,680 why was I doing? But when Rob said it, even after 429 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,960 you asked it, Rob, I'm like, I don't know, is he right? 430 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,320 I think I should still say this, but what I came around to, and I 431 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,640 think this is really what the poll framework effectively 432 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,280 espouses is look, if you're on the call, that was huge friction 433 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,000 to already get to this point, like scheduling the call, 434 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,160 picking up a phone. No one's doing that unless we're 435 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,720 serious. Like let's get on with it. 436 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,920 So go let's figure out what are you trying to do and what's 437 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,440 blocking you from achieving that success? 438 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,000 And is the thing that I have going to help unblock you? 439 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,040 Do you believe it's going to help unblock you? 440 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,000 Then great. Then we're down to just 441 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,600 logistics and pricing and mechanics and let's and move. 442 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,120 I think that was the big unexpected benefit. 443 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,120 And actually what's funny is it's the thesis that we sold. 444 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:08,840 We told RBCS like no one wants to talk to sales. 445 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,840 Like you really need to have your experts out there, blah, 446 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,920 blah, blah. So I'm like, shit, Rob actually 447 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,480 did it better than I did. He's actually living this 448 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,200 thesis. And I'm just talking about the 449 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,840 thesis. I should actually just do what 450 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,680 Rob is saying. So that was the full circle for 451 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,360 me So. That's super interesting. 452 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,680 And I think you actually just described poll in that last 453 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,880 piece better than I have ever described it, which we're just 454 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,840 going to go back and we're going to go and, and, and take that. 455 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:41,120 OK, tell me about because I, I, I appreciate, you know, all the, 456 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:43,800 all the nice words here, but like what, what I actually want 457 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,920 to get into is like what specifically changed You 458 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:53,560 mentioned the ICP you I, I, you mentioned the structure of a 459 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,560 sales call. What changed and what was hard 460 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,320 about changing? I don't think it was hard 461 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,440 actually. I don't. 462 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,400 I mean, it was just we had to sort of build that muscle 463 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,880 because we were doing it differently wrongly before we 464 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,720 were talking to you, before we talked to you. 465 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,120 So one was I think Arjun came out of that first meeting. 466 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,800 He's like, that's it. Rob nailed it. 467 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,920 Like he just, it was an aha moment for him to say we need to 468 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,880 six, we need to focus on the CEO and we immediately when we 469 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,080 changed our messaging on the homepage to talk more to the CEO 470 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,760 instead of the CMO, we did a whole bunch of things. 471 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,840 And then so and then we also because of you, Rob built a deck 472 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,840 because so the discover the basically our call completely 473 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,360 transformed after we talked to you. 474 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,440 So first of all, we didn't start with this huge thesis and why 475 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,360 we're here and what we believe and, and asking a lot of 476 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,560 questions that, you know, we're not necessary necessary. 477 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,680 We instead went directly to what brought you to this call. 478 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,160 And when they said it, we started digging there. 479 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,280 You said this. OK, tell me more. 480 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:01,680 What exactly have you done there? 481 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,440 What is the pain? Whatever. 482 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,320 What have you tried there to really see if there was a real 483 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,880 need? So we just focus there and let 484 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,520 all these other things that we would spend the 1st 15 minutes, 485 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,760 20 minutes on fall. So we were, we became really 486 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,080 good at understanding if there was a real need and a buyer 487 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,120 intent there and then. And in that mode of getting to 488 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:29,720 that point, we also you told us to have this deck and I think I 489 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,320 can't remember how exactly it came about, but the deck was 490 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,240 really helpful. And again, structuring our 491 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,680 script, our sales, but we had a sales script by the way before. 492 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,360 It's not that we did not, we had a very good sales script which 493 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:49,920 resonated well with people. But it I think what as Arjun 494 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,720 said, it worked for a number of different personas. 495 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:59,480 And what the deck did was be very clear about who this is for 496 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,600 and who this is not for. And I think that was a big 497 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:09,280 improvement in in how we sort of did our discovery calls and how 498 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,760 quickly we were able to get to where we where we needed to go. 499 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,760 So, yeah, message, like the overall discovery call, like we 500 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,520 just were much more focused. We knew who we wanted as ICP. 501 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,520 We had this deck that was like really helpful and helping us 502 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,080 tell a very tight story in a succinct way without being too 503 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,160 wordy. And then yeah. 504 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,320 And yeah, so I think those are some of the benefits. 505 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,080 And like I said, we were very quickly able to see the 506 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,680 difference in the outcomes in, you know, where we spend time, 507 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,960 which ones we knew would close and being able to close them 508 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,920 much earlier. Like before we would have 2-3 509 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,520 calls, you know, they'd be like, oh, that's interesting, we'll 510 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,080 get back and then there's another one. 511 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,480 But I think after our sessions with you and making these 512 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,240 changes, we pretty much knew like the person would say, yeah, 513 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,160 I'm ready and I'd like to onboard after the first call, 514 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,120 first call. Yeah. 515 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:09,120 Can I, so then can I take that? Can I try to like put maybe my 516 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:12,160 top spin on this of like how what I'm hearing and then and 517 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,160 then I want you to react to it. So you had basically perfectly 518 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:21,240 engineered a sales deck and messaging that resonated with 519 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,360 many different people. And many of them would even sign 520 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,000 up and, and, and use the product and, and, you know, some, some 521 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,800 would continue, some wouldn't. And it was kind of, but, but you 522 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,680 had something that worked. Yeah. 523 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,200 However there were these issues after where some people were 524 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,400 using a ton and other people weren't using very much. 525 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,880 It wasn't clear exactly what to do. 526 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:50,240 And so the the thing that you realize is that while your 527 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,680 market people who the people who should want this would benefit 528 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:59,160 from this, like it's basically every B to B company should want 529 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,520 it would benefit from it. Who that has some sort of 530 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,840 subject matter experts. However, there is one kind of 531 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,480 person at least there's there's one kind of person who is crazy 532 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,520 not to buy it in in the present moment. 533 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:21,400 And that person is Aceo who's in a very specific situation where 534 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,240 they know LinkedIn is important, have tried to post on LinkedIn, 535 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,560 are trying to post on LinkedIn or whatever was Reddit, 536 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,400 whatever, but but they keep they can't keep it consistent. 537 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,080 And so they're just everyday they're just like, there's that 538 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,560 like thing in the back of their mind. 539 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,600 If I know I should be showing up, but I just and and that 540 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,280 person in that situation closes in one call and is successful. 541 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,480 Yeah. Yeah, am I missing anything 542 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,760 there? No, that's exactly right. 543 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,560 We defined a couple of attributes after the fact of 544 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,920 what that CEO looks like. So what is the behavior they're 545 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,520 exhibiting that says that's it, you're my guy? 546 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,960 I think maybe you, Rob said it or maybe I read it, that if your 547 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,000 ICP definition is really good, you should be able to walk into 548 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,600 a room with like 20 or 30 people. 549 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,400 And then a few minutes ago, oh, these three people, that's it. 550 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,920 Those 3 work. Everyone else is not quite ready 551 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,600 yet. And so for us, the behavior that 552 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:25,000 we want to see is that that CEO, usually CEO, is posting on 553 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,280 LinkedIn at least once or twice a month. 554 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,920 They've tried it, they're trying. 555 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,080 It's just sort of not working. But it can't be too much. 556 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,440 If you're posting 2-3 times a week, you're probably too far 557 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,320 off. Sometimes you can still find 558 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,440 benefit in rocks. All because we have this whole 559 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,000 bit about helping you find the right conversations and comment. 560 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,360 So in fact, some of our early adopters were posting a lot and 561 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,240 came to us for that benefit. But the bigger chunk is I'm 562 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,280 trying to post. I just can't get into a rhythm. 563 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,760 Once in a while I'll repost what have you, and the follower count 564 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,280 is somewhere between 2 and 10,000. 565 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,160 So they have something to say. Some people seem to like what 566 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,920 they say, they just aren't doing it correctly, rightly, etcetera. 567 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,880 And so, so much of it, this was, it became a really easy, 568 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,000 identifiable pattern. Anita, just look at Oh yeah, 569 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,560 you're our guy. Oh no, she's not ready yet. 570 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,240 That I think made it a lot easier. 571 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,480 So you can basically, that's really, you can tell most, most 572 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,080 people that I know, you know who, who go through this 573 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,320 transformation poll can tell them the first two minutes of a 574 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,080 call if this person's going to buy or not. 575 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,240 You can tell before they show up to the call, more or less. 576 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,880 Yeah, yeah, we know very well now. 577 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,120 And if you do the call right as I'm sure every salesperson tries 578 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,040 to do, you want to tailor the call immensely right from the 579 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,360 get go. So right from when we pick up 580 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,120 the call, Anita, and I've already read everything that 581 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,120 they've tried posted, what have you? 582 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,880 If we're asking a question, we probably have a decent idea what 583 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,400 the answer is going to be and we want to just double check 584 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,280 everything. So hey, we're doing this. 585 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:03,840 What's the thing that's working? What's not? 586 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,240 I see this, I see that. Is this the ICP you're trying to 587 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,000 use it? OK, let's this is what we can 588 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:08,920 offer. Is that good? 589 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,720 It's a much, much faster call. It's a sharper call and it 590 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,520 doesn't waste their time as much. 591 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,920 That's I think the biggest thing is I was wasting people's time a 592 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,640 lot earlier and I feel like I do that far less now. 593 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,960 Like if you're fit, we'll know real quick and you're not, we'll 594 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,960 get off it, but let's not waste each other's time. 595 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,960 And I just want to say, and I think we've kind of said this, 596 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,480 but I want to make this very clear. 597 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,360 You see, when we were doing the calls before, when we were going 598 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,080 from like the big, like, you know, here's what's happening in 599 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,760 the market and here's what's changing. 600 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,360 And here's and people were nodding. 601 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:42,840 They were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 602 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:48,440 What happened is we didn't get to their specific pain point 603 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,480 properly because we were here and they agreed, agreed and they 604 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:53,800 were like, OK, let's try the product. 605 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,640 We give the demo and then we gave it when we started going 606 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,800 with the poll and go directly to what brought you here. 607 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:08,240 We now like I now have, I now have segmented CEOs in buckets 608 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,120 based on their pain point. You see, like there are CE OS 609 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,200 for whom the problem is posting consistently. 610 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,240 For other CE OS, it's about the fact that they have no 611 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,600 visibility into the pipeline and they want visibility into the 612 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,560 pipeline. For others, it's actually not 613 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,880 posting consistently. It is what Arjun said, which is 614 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,040 I want to be commenting and expanding my network and 615 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:40,240 engaging in discussions that are happening on LinkedIn that I 616 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,000 just don't know about and I don't want to deal with the 617 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,440 LinkedIn feed. Those are three very different 618 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,960 use cases. And we got to that because we 619 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,040 were so much sharper to understand their pull rather 620 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,520 than sort of, you know, go at the very general level, which 621 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,800 everybody, all those personas agreed with and all the CEO's 622 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,120 agreed with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 623 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,400 OK, Show the product, let's try it, right. 624 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,440 But we didn't get to their exact. 625 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,160 Now we do like. And the fourth case, by the way, 626 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,720 is I just have no time. I'm always darling, we have the 627 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,640 CEO, he's always travelling. So we have like this mobile 628 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,240 piece where they can just text rock salt and create incredible 629 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,240 post in 3 minutes on the go. We would never have got to 630 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:29,720 these, you know, very fine-tuned use cases or segments of our ICP 631 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,000 had we not been sharper in our calls. 632 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,760 What what was it? One thing that I can't remember 633 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,840 if it was Arjun or Anita, what is fascinating for because I'm 634 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,840 like, wow, you just checked all the boxes like on my side of 635 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,560 things. So maybe I'm maybe I'm the ICP 636 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,080 for rock salt in some ways. But but one of the questions I 637 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,640 had is, you know, you talked about like CMOS loved your 638 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,200 product early on, like they gave you glowing feedback. 639 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,240 They were trying to champion it. They were trying to push it. 640 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,640 Was there a signal or like what happened that you were like, oh, 641 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,760 actually the CEO, like what was there? 642 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,520 Did somebody buy fast? Was it? 643 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,160 You know, you mentioned some of the results, but in the moment 644 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,840 how did you recognize the 2? I think that's exactly right. 645 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,600 So we CM OS, we got tons of traction and then we, you know, 646 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,360 we those CM OS that many of them are fractional sold it 647 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,239 internally to their clients and then we got a bunch of clients 648 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,040 and again, many of those didn't work out in the initial days. 649 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:33,800 And then we had this one case where the CEO came, contacted us 650 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,159 and like now is one of our best customers and expanded it to 651 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,920 like tell 5 people in his team to use it. 652 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,760 And when we asked him like the journey he was, he had the use 653 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,239 case where he was posting consistently but wanted to 654 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,840 engage better. And what did he do? 655 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,520 He asked his fractional CMO. And his fractional CMO had heard 656 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,120 about rock salt and brought us in. 657 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,440 And so that's what clicked for us, that actually the winning 658 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,440 combination is not the fractional marketer or the 659 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,600 marketer on their own. And CE OS are hard to get 660 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,880 because they're not Googling and searching for these tools. 661 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:15,800 The winning combination is actually CM OS know about us and 662 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,760 they bring CE OS who want to be on LinkedIn and they're showing 663 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:25,720 some behavior that they're serious about LinkedIn like 664 00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:27,520 posting regularly etcetera, etcetera. 665 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,600 Does that answer your question? Yeah, Rob, I love your your 666 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,440 reactions that like does that mirror like when, when other 667 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,000 founders that you work with have found their ICP have like really 668 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,040 found the one with the poll? Like does that story is that you 669 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,200 know something that you hear often? 670 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,000 So I think I think like Roxalt has a very special case of this, 671 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,760 which is that like their messaging resonates broadly. 672 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:56,880 Their thesis is, is basically something that it would be weird 673 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,680 if you disagreed with, which means everybody nods when they 674 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,680 hear the story there. That's not always the case. 675 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,880 That is a that is a useful thing to have because it means you 676 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,280 know you're going to start with these CE OS and then other thing 677 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,120 you're going to expand beyond there and you just can expand 678 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,520 basically forever on on different kinds of case studies. 679 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,920 That's great, but it's also a uniquely challenging situation 680 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:31,400 to be in when everybody agrees in the thesis, but doesn't act 681 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,520 in such a way as to pull the product out of your hands and 682 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,040 keep using it post sale. And so I think there's like a 683 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:44,200 unique case here where it's it's a unique kind of challenge, but 684 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,200 it's not an uncommon one of right. 685 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:51,440 Like when I pitch, I'm just, I'm saying words, they are agreeing 686 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,760 with the words and then stuff afterwards isn't going how I 687 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,240 expect it to go. Like that's a very common sign 688 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:01,880 that you are pushing something onto a market that's not pulling 689 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:02,920 and it's not obvious obvious why. 690 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,040 Yeah, I like that a lot actually. 691 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,960 And by the way, from a product standpoint, it's interesting 692 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,760 because Anita and I talk about this. 693 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,520 You can do these things in products to gamify your product 694 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,840 and encourage adoption and regular usage and engagement and 695 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,720 all kinds of tricks, notifications and emails and 696 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:26,560 stuff like that. And a little bit of that is a 697 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,280 push, but if you really are solving a problem, that's 698 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,040 important. Unless the product sucks and is 699 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,280 really hard to access, people probably just use it without you 700 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,040 bothering them too much. You do need some amount of 701 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,120 reminders, a little bit of habit formation. 702 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,080 You don't have to go crazy over it. 703 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,920 And so it's one of the reasons why we do have some of that in 704 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,640 the product. But I, I hate the verb even 705 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,800 gamify because I feel like I'm tricking my users like your 706 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,640 streak is on, keep the streak alive. 707 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,600 Like piss off. Like you have you, you would do 708 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,360 this without the streak. You're doing it because you're 709 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,760 trying to make your business successful, streak be damned. 710 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,360 And so really, I think what you said, you know, like people 711 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,560 would agree with the thesis and then afterwards things wouldn't 712 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,760 go the way that we expected. What it was saying is that we 713 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,640 weren't really doing a good job of figuring out, did they really 714 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,280 need this? Like, it's good. 715 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,880 Do you really need it? What are you trying? 716 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,160 Like, if I wasn't here, what would you do tomorrow? 717 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,360 Like, would you just die? Would you just be like, yeah, I 718 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,200 guess it wasn't that important. So what, what happens if I'm not 719 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,840 here? And I think we got better about 720 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,040 asking that. And actually, Rob, you're 721 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,120 totally right. The problem is everybody likes 722 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:37,480 the damn thesis. Yes. 723 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,960 So it was like hard to be like, well, So what we're going to 724 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,720 say, no, I mean they want to give us money, take the money, 725 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:46,520 but you take the money and you do some onboarding and then like 726 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,440 a month or two later they weren't using the product and, 727 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,240 and what, what was the point anyways? 728 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,240 So now we're just better about saying, yeah, I mean by all 729 00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:56,800 means you, you might find value, but we are much better at 730 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,360 figuring out you, you will find value and I'm going to spend 731 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,600 time with you because you will be successful. 732 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,760 And a year or two from now that ICP definition will change, 733 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,360 it'll be broader, it'll be different. 734 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,680 We will keep changing this every year as the market matures and 735 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,560 expands, etcetera. But right now, for the next 9 to 736 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,440 12 months, I think it's exactly what we said and that's what I 737 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,800 think you have to zero in on. That's super cool. 738 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,840 Let let me just like zoom out and and give some reflections 739 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,720 there and then we could we could probably wrap it as well, 740 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:26,560 because I want to be mindful of your time you've got like this, 741 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,080 This has been super cool. So the thing you just said there 742 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:37,120 is really, really interesting in how pull and understanding who 743 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:42,600 is basically blocked from the thing they are trying to do that 744 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,920 informs your sales pitch, but it actually informs the product 745 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,400 that needs to exist to deliver to help them accomplish that 746 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,000 thing to unblock them. And if you find that you have to 747 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,880 Polish your product a ton, if you find that you have to add a 748 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,840 bunch of nudges and stuff to be like, and if you find that 749 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,160 you're doing a lot of work to like on board them. 750 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,720 And hey, just following up, did you did you use it? 751 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:07,840 I didn't. I haven't seen you use it. 752 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,560 That's a sign that you there's something wrong. 753 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,120 And it's probably not to do with the product. 754 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:18,200 It's probably to do with who you are serving and whether they had 755 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,160 pull in the first place. And the analogy I would give 756 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,640 there and maybe you can tell me, tell me I'm I'm totally wrong 757 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:28,320 here, but I recall in Hubspot's early days and tell me if I'm 758 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,880 totally off base here, but the product wasn't always this 759 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,320 magical awesome product that that worked all the time, that 760 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,040 was great. I remember before I think the 761 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,960 performable acquisition, it was, you know, there were Hubspot's 762 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,120 product was pulled out, like people were ripping the product 763 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:48,960 out of Hubspot's hands. Everyone was coming in back, 764 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,800 they were using it and the product like actually had, you 765 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,240 know, that might have had some issues here or there or whatever 766 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,040 and people didn't care. They loved the product. 767 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,960 They raved about the product. And so there's something about 768 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:03,680 having having to perfectly Polish and put all the 769 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,080 notifications to have all the features and have everything 770 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,840 like perfectly done. Obviously we want that, but 771 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,080 there's a very good sign when that's actually not needed. 772 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:16,640 That means we know exactly what we're helping them accomplish 773 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,440 something unblocking them in such an important thing that 774 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,720 they're like, yeah, OK. Like in my, in my case, I'll 775 00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:24,880 just leave it from zero to 1,000,000 AR. 776 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,960 The product was me in a spreadsheet. 777 00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:30,960 And I kept apologizing to our end customers like, I promise 778 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,160 I'll I'll get a login for you at some point. 779 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,280 And they're like, I don't care. You're you're solving this for 780 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,800 me. I don't care if I have to login 781 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,560 or not. Like all I care about is this. 782 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,760 Yeah, I think that's right. Prior to the Performer 783 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:51,640 acquisition, the product was not particularly polished or even 784 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,400 consistent. It had all kinds of weird 785 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,080 limits. Like a hilarious one was you 786 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,160 couldn't send more than I think 5000 emails a month with any 787 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,640 account which you know today a marketer be like, dude, that's 788 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,880 like a Mickey Mouse product, but it worked because it was solving 789 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,440 something that nobody else was solving at the time. 790 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,200 It was clunky. It had all kinds of issues, but 791 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:23,760 no one else had it. It was great of the all in Yes, 792 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,320 what performal did when they came in was David cancel an 793 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,960 incredible product. Guy basically said, OK, we need 794 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,360 like a serious revamp and the architecture and all that. 795 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,280 He did a total rebuild. But what he also got and what 796 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,440 really the whole team got right is that we're kind of still like 797 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,280 a we're like a fringe, not fringe. 798 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,400 It's like a it's like an avant-garde marketing thing 799 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,080 like, oh, inbound, like, OK, that's you know, it's it's cool, 800 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,240 but what does marketing actually do? 801 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,200 Most days we send goddamn emails. 802 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:02,920 Like you can talk all you want, but we send emails and your 803 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,520 e-mail thing locks out of 5000. That's pretty much useless. 804 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,080 So David and really the whole team, like from Brian on down 805 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,000 said we're going to make the middle of the funnel product 806 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,640 offering, MOFU offering be very strong. 807 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,360 And that was e-mail and marketing automation, stuff that 808 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,320 we had historically stayed away from because it was a little bit 809 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,560 too competitive. David built a great job of that. 810 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,560 It was wonderful. And then he fused it into the 811 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,280 rest of product, which is now much more consistent. 812 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,280 And now we had something that was both avant-garde and no one 813 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,880 else had, plus the block and tackle stuff that we do 814 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,240 everyday. That's when the product really 815 00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:41,640 took off. And that's when, yeah, like 816 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,200 people were just delighted because it's like, OK, now it's 817 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,360 actually doing the thing I have to do every day. 818 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,600 And yes, you could do this better and that better. 819 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,960 Like our initial workflows were terrible, nothing like we have 820 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,040 today. Hopspot today is so good on its 821 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,760 workflows. Back then it was Mickey. 822 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,840 We didn't have branching and we said I, I, I can't even believe 823 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,200 I said this. I'd go around town people. 824 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,080 If you have to do if then statements are bragging logic, 825 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,440 you've already lost the market. OK, you don't have that many, 826 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,280 like just linear and I see it with a straight face. 827 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:13,800 How did I do that? It's terrible. 828 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,480 And then over the years we added it. 829 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,800 So, but The thing is, the base product worked for the thing 830 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,720 that people really need it, which is I need to send emails. 831 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,560 Does this work really well? Does it look pretty good? 832 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,000 Great, I'm in. And then everything else is 833 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:29,600 extra. So yeah, I love that. 834 00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:30,640 Well, cool. Well, I'll let you. 835 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,080 Is there anything you that we haven't covered that you want to 836 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,200 make sure we cover any any things you want to mention? 837 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,240 I and we do not need to say any more nice things about me. 838 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:40,960 You've already said like way too many and it's made me 839 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,320 uncomfortable. So we could we could any other 840 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,880 things on transforming from push to pull or anything else? 841 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,600 No, I, I, I don't think so. You know, it's look, a lot of 842 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,000 your listeners are going to be other founders. 843 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,960 I feel like sometimes if you look at the headlines in some, 844 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,440 you know, it's like, oh, great, you know, narrowing on the ICP 845 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,600 again, will they do like get your message invite? 846 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,160 So it all seems like the same thing, but my goodness, is it 847 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,040 really important. And then of course, everything 848 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:10,520 shapes up. The product shapes up, the 849 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,720 website shapes up, the outreach shapes up. 850 00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:14,600 Everything sort of falls in line. 851 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:17,920 Yeah. I think it's just it's a really 852 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,360 good exercise to do with or without Rob Snyder. 853 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,680 Like, you should do this Like it's a, it's an important thing 854 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,960 for every founder to go through this exercise and hopefully with 855 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,360 Rob Snyder. But if you don't like, it's 856 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,600 still a really good thing to do. Yeah. 857 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:35,320 And I would say, I think with AI and the explosion of startups, I 858 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,280 think a lot of people are going to be in the place where we are 859 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,880 where your value proposition resonates with a lot of people. 860 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:47,840 And so honing in on your early adopter understanding who feels 861 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,560 the most pain that we want to RIP it out of your hands is 862 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,200 critical in making sure that your product strategy and your 863 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,680 company strategy actually are successful. 864 00:45:58,160 --> 00:45:59,680 So I think it's really important. 865 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,080 Yeah. Love it. 866 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,400 Well thank you. Thank you for reaching out. 867 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,800 This is cool. I hope people like it. 868 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,800 If they do comment, let us know. If you don't, also let us know. 869 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,720 But I don't know how you couldn't like these two. 870 00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:11,280 They should be hosting the podcast anyway. 871 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,160 How can folks find y'all? Thank y'all so much for coming 872 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,080 on, but how? How can folks get connected to 873 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:21,080 you and find Roxhall? Easy peasy for me. 874 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,040 It's on LinkedIn, I'm Arjun Morthy, and on Twitter I'm Juice 875 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,360 Morthy. It's my old nickname from 876 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:28,840 college. OK, Anita. 877 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:35,040 My LinkedIn is a Morthy and Twitter I think is Anita 878 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,960 Morphy's the full name no spaces and rocksol dot AI is the the 879 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:44,360 website and you can reach us at Anita at rocksol dot AI or Arjun 880 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,200 at rocksol dot AI all. Right, perfect. 881 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:48,800 And I'll, I'll make sure that those get in the show notes so 882 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,760 people can people can find them. Rob, anything else you wanted to 883 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,000 add? No, it was great. 884 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,120 Thank you all for no this. Is this is super interesting. 885 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,920 Thank you all so much for for joining us. 886 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,280 Great, and thank you for making this happen.