1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,480
Hey, Rob, how's it going, man? 
Good, good. 

2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:04,200
How are you? 
I'm. 

3
00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,440
I actually think I'm a little 
more alive than last week. 

4
00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,560
Which is crazy given that your, 
your daughter is like having 

5
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:17,120
sleep, sleep issues. 
But I Rob, this is an epic, epic

6
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,040
post today. 
Like this is 1. 

7
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,720
It's called the pull quick start
guide applying pull. 

8
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,880
We'll link to in the show notes.
It's one for folks to bookmark. 

9
00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:28,320
It's it's kind of like I was 
thinking of. 

10
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,840
I was like, what is this thing? 
And the closest analogy I have 

11
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,000
to it is like, you know, orange 
juice concentrate. 

12
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,560
It's just like everything like 
sort and then you add water to 

13
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,480
it. 
This is like your writing 

14
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,160
concentrate version and you 
know, there's a bunch of things 

15
00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:45,640
that connect to it, a bunch of 
places to go, but it's like if 

16
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,000
you need the essence of like Rob
Snyder's thinking and 

17
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,720
understanding pool and 
understanding PMF and how to 

18
00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,480
deliver this, this is it. 
So literally like bookmark this 

19
00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,040
thing and come back to it every 
once in a while. 

20
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,280
Rob, why don't, why don't you 
give us context on like what is 

21
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,600
this thing and why is it on your
mind? 

22
00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:06,680
Yeah. 
So we are almost done with 

23
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,960
another round of PMF camp. 
And the thing that I keep 

24
00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:14,160
noticing and all right that I 
worry about is that people will 

25
00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,160
come through. 
There's, you know, 5 sessions 

26
00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,680
that cover kind of every single 
part of product market fit in 

27
00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,160
sales that is relevant to pull. 
And I come out of it worrying 

28
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,960
that people have learned a lot 
of things and are applying a lot

29
00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:34,240
of things, but that they don't 
have a quick start guide on or 

30
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,320
like a, here's what's most 
important here are the, you can 

31
00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:40,400
take away a lot of different 
things from here, but there is a

32
00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,280
almost like hierarchy of 
importance. 

33
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:50,960
And so I, I actually wrote this 
as an internal doc for the like 

34
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,040
PMF camp folks, but I was like, 
you know what, screw it. 

35
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,640
I like I wrote it while on a 
plane just on my phone and I was

36
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,440
like, you know, this, this would
actually be a helpful thing we 

37
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,080
can put in a blog post. 
Maybe we can, we can just open 

38
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,920
source it. 
And I think it will help 

39
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,440
specifically one of the common 
error modes I see which is being

40
00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:19,360
right about things that are 
downstream and wrong about 

41
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:25,480
things that are upstream. 
And that is actually a massively

42
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,880
important concept that I think 
plagues basically all of 

43
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,520
entrepreneurship thinking and a 
lot of business thinking as 

44
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,640
well, which is that these are, 
these are we are very right to a

45
00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:41,400
precise degree about something 
downstream that is irrelevant 

46
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,280
because of what's upstream. 
Yeah. 

47
00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,520
Can you give an example of that?
What, what, what could it feel 

48
00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,320
like to be right down? 
Or maybe it's even like focused 

49
00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,920
on getting something right 
downstream that's or downstream 

50
00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:55,960
that and while not fixing the 
thing that's upstream or 

51
00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:56,720
something like that. 
But what? 

52
00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,440
What does that look like with? 
Yeah. 

53
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,080
So like the classic example is 
like being super, super rigorous

54
00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:07,000
about your discovery interviews,
whereas you're, you know, you're

55
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,400
doing this is what a ton of 
founders do, which is you've 

56
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,320
been told to do discovery 
interviews. 

57
00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,000
And so you get a super detailed 
interview guide. 

58
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,680
You do it, you like analyze it 
with claw, you do like a ton of 

59
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:25,200
analysis on it and you get super
good at discovery interviews, 

60
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,800
which are irrelevant, are 
generally irrelevant because 

61
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,080
they miss just a fundamental 
thing. 

62
00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:40,560
Why do people buy things? 
And given that that upstream 

63
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,840
concept, you would not be doing 
discovery interviews. 

64
00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,000
It's like like if you understood
that upstream thing, you would 

65
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,680
not be doing this downstream 
thing. 

66
00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,280
Yeah, a couple areas that I've 
reading through this hierarchy, 

67
00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:56,480
I was like, yeah, I did that 
before. 

68
00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,320
I did the thing before it or the
thing six things before it. 

69
00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:04,320
One was building supply, like 
overbuilding supply before, like

70
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:09,120
really understanding the ICP and
and identifying pool, because 

71
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,720
pool tells you what the supply 
is that you should build. 

72
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,680
And then another one is there's 
like certain things that you get

73
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,000
kind of hung up on. 
It's like, how do I price this 

74
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:24,680
thing when it's like, who cares?
Almost like until you've, until 

75
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,840
you've figured out what they're 
trying to accomplish and how to 

76
00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:30,000
sell to them and stuff. 
It doesn't, it almost like 

77
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,240
doesn't matter. 
And you you articulated that in 

78
00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,360
this post in a way that was like
kind of light bulb moment for 

79
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,360
me. 
That's just one, one example of 

80
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:38,560
that. 
I wish it would have been light 

81
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,040
bulb 18 months ago, but you 
know, unfortunately it's light 

82
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:43,920
bulb today. 
Let me let me give another 

83
00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,280
example to this. 
This is a. 

84
00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:49,200
This is one that I've seen 
actually very, very common and 

85
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,520
in our world, which is, there's 
a lot of sales advice out there 

86
00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:58,920
and there's, you know, you have 
to be really good at sales, 

87
00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,640
which I, I don't disagree that 
you should be good at sales, but

88
00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,160
being good at sales is 
downstream of something that is 

89
00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,840
way more important upstream. 
And so, like I, I, I wrote about

90
00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:14,800
this this week online where it 
was, you know, the, I'm watching

91
00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:18,520
a sales call, probably the worst
sales call you have ever seen, 

92
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:25,360
just unbelievable. 
You know, like any experienced 

93
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,600
salesperson would watch it and 
probably vomit. 

94
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,840
And it didn't matter. 
It, it like, yes, they should 

95
00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:35,480
improve. 
Yes, I, I, I like, nearly 

96
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,120
punched this person, but it did 
it. 

97
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:42,400
It didn't actually matter 
because what was upstream was 

98
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,480
that there was somebody who was 
so stuck that they would have 

99
00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,720
eaten dog food to buy this. 
Yeah, yeah. 

100
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,600
Or it got through waterboarding 
or a boot camp with a like a 

101
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,000
marine boot camp in order to 
purchase a a product. 

102
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,080
You know, there's there, there's
one thing I'd like to call it 

103
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:03,600
before we get into the 
hierarchy. 

104
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:10,080
I thought this is a really clear
articulation of basically what 

105
00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,040
you're doing essentially. 
And it you you wrote, we don't 

106
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:19,080
know what causes not PMF to PMF.
So it's unclear what to do pre 

107
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,680
PMF. 
This is what I call the pain 

108
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,280
cave, where infinite things 
could work, but it's not obvious

109
00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,040
what will work. 
We can live along in the pain 

110
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,080
cave forever because basically 
every startup spends time in the

111
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,880
pain cave. 
And then this is the thing and 

112
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,120
startups that escape the pain 
cave figure out one specific 

113
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,240
thing pull. 
And that that connected a couple

114
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,280
of the things that you've 
written and that I've, I've been

115
00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:47,760
around that maybe like 
intuitive, like sort of sunken. 

116
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,120
But it was like, OK, the, the 
predictive path to getting to 

117
00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,520
product market fit is actually 
the pull, the pull framework, 

118
00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,120
which you've probably said that 
15 times, Rob, I don't know why 

119
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,240
it's, it's taken me this long, 
but you know what, when I read 

120
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,680
that, I was like, oh, it's like 
it just simplified kind of 

121
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,600
everything in that. 
And so this post is that as you 

122
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,960
mentioned the hierarchy of 
things targeted at that getting 

123
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,640
out of the pancave and like 
understanding pulls so that you 

124
00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,880
can execute on it and find 
product market fit. 

125
00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:20,600
Do you agree with that? 
I don't know if that is that a 

126
00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:21,840
fair characterization of it? 
Yeah. 

127
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,040
Yeah, 100%. 
That's, that's exactly how I 

128
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,040
think about and, and it's right.
And so what's happening though, 

129
00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,360
as you're doing that, which is, 
which is really interesting 

130
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,400
because, right, I've said this 
before, but I haven't, but 

131
00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,320
either I haven't said it or you 
haven't internalized it in the 

132
00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,520
stack in the hierarchy of 
things, right? 

133
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,080
Or you put it somewhere lower in
the hierarchy of things. 

134
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:51,760
And So what I'm like, what I'm 
trying to do is figure out how 

135
00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,160
product market fit works, how to
make startups take off. 

136
00:07:55,080 --> 00:08:00,400
And specifically that requires 
this hierarchy of what is most 

137
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,640
important that nothing else is 
upstream of. 

138
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,640
Yeah, because if you get 
something right that's 

139
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:15,080
downstream or right or, or or 
worse that feels right but is 

140
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,600
actually only true post product 
market fit. 

141
00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,840
It's a symptom of product market
fit and taking off. 

142
00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,160
Then you're just going to be 
totally wrong in unpredictable 

143
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,360
ways that will make no sense to 
you. 

144
00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,600
And so that that's the real, 
this is the real challenge of 

145
00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,799
this like stupid exercise that 
I've been on for the past 

146
00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:38,720
decade. 
It's like the it's, you know, 

147
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,720
it's trying to figure out what 
is causal upstream and what's 

148
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,920
the full hierarchy from there. 
And I just like you, just 

149
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,480
shouldn't wish this on an enemy.
It's so awful. 

150
00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,600
Yeah, you're, you're, you're in 
the like pink cave of 

151
00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,160
articulating the the causality 
and and startups. 

152
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,160
Rob, why don't we let's hit that
hierarchy and actually maybe 

153
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:06,440
before that. 
I think this is right. 

154
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,480
Basically all founders that are 
trying to understand how product

155
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,080
market fit works. 
It may be founders that are in 

156
00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,040
the middle of the paint cave or 
what's. 

157
00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,800
Not so it's interesting. 
I'm getting called into like 

158
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:22,680
doing executive briefings on 
pole at like companies that are 

159
00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:27,000
big, which is interesting. 
And so everyone is trying to 

160
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:32,040
understand this hierarchy and 
like the the, the why are some 

161
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,200
of our products taking off and 
others aren't? 

162
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,280
And why can't we seem to predict
that in advance? 

163
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:43,600
And so it is like this is a 
think of this as a way to boot 

164
00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,760
pull thinking into your brain in
the correct sequence. 

165
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,520
Love it, love it. 
I'm going to start calling all 

166
00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:59,200
of our meetings executive 
briefings for I was I was you 

167
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,120
can start telling people I was 
in an executive briefing with a 

168
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,200
with a kids and family media 
company. 

169
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,480
And it was really like you and I
were hanging out having a drink.

170
00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:11,640
Anyways, so let's let's get into
the list. 

171
00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,560
Let's take it from the top. 
Or how did you think about the 

172
00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:18,320
hierarchy before we get into the
elements themselves? 

173
00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:22,520
How do I think about the 
hierarchy? 

174
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,560
So what I thought about was 
first you actually need to 

175
00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:32,800
understand the theory behind it.
You have to understand the the 

176
00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,960
pull framework. 
What causes a purchase and what 

177
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,000
doesn't? 
What makes somebody weird not to

178
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,800
buy when everybody is like most 
of the time weird to buy? 

179
00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,080
And that's the like, there's 
and, and like what are the kind 

180
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,800
of general implications of that?
So you have to have that in your

181
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,880
brain. 
Otherwise you're going to be in 

182
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,000
push mode in everything you do 
and you're not going to kind of,

183
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,680
you're not going to understand, 
it's not going to become 

184
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:05,080
intuitive. 
Then the next step on the 

185
00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,120
hierarchy, I've, I've realized 
that the kind of like #1 step on

186
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:14,120
the implementation side is the 
ideal customer profiles, the, 

187
00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:19,880
the kind of who you serve. 
Everything is downstream of 

188
00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,640
that. 
All your sales tactics, your 

189
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,880
like, your product is downstream
like all of everything is 

190
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:33,440
downstream of the person that 
you choose to serve. 

191
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,200
And there are like the way you 
would typically make an ideal 

192
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,560
customer profiles you'd write, 
you know, I sell to people named

193
00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:46,400
Rob who live in Mexico City and 
do and, you know, like media if 

194
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:47,800
you're. 
Honestly, if you're if you're a 

195
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,800
Taco seller, that's actually a 
really good starting point for 

196
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,400
for this. 
But it's, but so you're going to

197
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,320
define it in terms of just just 
kind of like static 

198
00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,520
characteristics and everything 
is going to break down straight 

199
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,560
with that because you defined it
in terms of static 

200
00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:07,040
characteristics. 
Instead you have to define it 

201
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:12,000
based on pull. 
If you define your ICP based on 

202
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,840
who has pull, who has a high 
probability in anyone given 

203
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:22,720
moment of having pull, then it's
like it's super clear. 

204
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:30,920
Like everything downstream of 
that just like will work or is 

205
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,400
relatively intuitive, is based 
on that because it's it's really

206
00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,200
like everything is downstream of
finding somebody who is stuck 

207
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,560
trying to do something but 
blocked by their current 

208
00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:45,240
options. 
Yeah, that's interesting. 

209
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,840
So if we need to contrast the 2A
a traditional view. 

210
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,720
So for my, my company, we, we, 
you know, we produce family 

211
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,600
media and then we sell it. 
We partner with businesses and 

212
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,840
stuff like that to that. 
Want to be in front of families.

213
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:00,960
I don't know that's like sort of
a cell. 

214
00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,320
Is it not the right way of 
framing it? 

215
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,960
But a previous way of of framing
it in a more traditional route 

216
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:12,840
is like we sell to mid sized 
brands that are trying or that 

217
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,280
that sell to moms and dads in 
the United States, something 

218
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,280
like that. 
It's like just a description of 

219
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:24,960
a product or you know, and the a
version of it that is aligned to

220
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:33,480
pull would be there is a brand 
marketer who is under pressure 

221
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:38,960
to improve performance because 
Meta is declining and getting 

222
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,480
more expensive. 
They're looking for alternative 

223
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,560
creative partnerships in order 
to do that, but they're having a

224
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:50,680
hard time because XYZ reasons 
that we don't. 

225
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:54,720
It's like they're am I 
internalizing the the the 

226
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,840
difference? 
So so you can you can define 

227
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:58,560
your ICP in a variety of 
different like. 

228
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:01,360
So in your case, you could have 
defined it just like as a 

229
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,280
general kind of like company 
attribute. 

230
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,440
What most people will do is 
they'll do a step worse than 

231
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,240
that because you've already kind
of you already have the pull 

232
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,160
framework in your brain. 
So you've kind of defined that. 

233
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,640
The worst version of that is, 
which I think you've also done 

234
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,480
before, is who do I want to sell
to? 

235
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,320
Right. 
And it's, it's great. 

236
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,720
That's cool. 
They don't want to buy. 

237
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,640
And then the second layer on it 
is who could we add the most 

238
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,560
value for or who would benefit 
the most? 

239
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,120
Who should want it the most? 
Who has pain points and problems

240
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,160
that we couldn't solve, right. 
And it's if you get, if you do 

241
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,160
any of those things, basically 
nothing else is going to work 

242
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,440
very well down the stream of 
that. 

243
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,480
And so that's why the ICP 
definition based on poll is the 

244
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,120
top of the hierarchy. 
Yeah, interesting. 

245
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,320
Even even before like outbound 
or yeah, it feels like some like

246
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,000
some of that like kind of goes 
hand in hand like who you're 

247
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,640
doing outbound to, to. 
Get on conversations with yeah, 

248
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,360
or, or because this, this is 
going to determine what method 

249
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,480
you're going to use to get in 
front of those people. 

250
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:13,480
If the people with a poll are 
Fortune 500 CEOs who are stuck 

251
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,760
in a very specific situation, 
you're not going to be doing 

252
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,440
outbound necessarily. 
You're or you're going to be 

253
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,480
doing a very weird approach to 
outbound, but maybe you're going

254
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,800
to get intros from some other 
like you're going to your, your 

255
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,520
entire business approach and 
product approach is downstream 

256
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,480
of this. 
Yeah, fascinating and I love it.

257
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,640
I I'm not, I'm not going to. 
I was going to say something 

258
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:36,680
else. 
It's stupid. 

259
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,520
Why don't we continue from the 
ICP down into you call it 

260
00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,720
product here actually, which 
which kind of like threw me for 

261
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,160
one. 
I was like, I thought we talked 

262
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,600
about supply, they said product 
and then in parentheses our 

263
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:54,720
supply to their demand. 
You're right or actually before 

264
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,240
I say that, why is that the 
second? 

265
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,360
Why that it it's surprising that
that was this high that product 

266
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,400
was there. 
Why is product the number number

267
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:08,280
two thing here? 
We have to have something that 

268
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,840
fits pull. 
If we don't have something or 

269
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:18,000
some shape of a thing that that 
could unblock them, then it 

270
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,960
doesn't matter. 
And then like nothing again, 

271
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,080
nothing else matters. 
And so that's where the it's, 

272
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,240
you know, you have to find 
somebody, you have to have some.

273
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,440
It doesn't need to be something 
fancy, it doesn't need to be 

274
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,680
fully built, but you need to 
have at least the concept, the 

275
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,360
high level requirements. 
What we'll talk about here to to

276
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,520
as something that you can at 
very least put in front of them,

277
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,920
show them or say the words to 
see if they actually pull. 

278
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,320
It, it makes me, that makes me 
think of, was it cyberstarts? 

279
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,240
I'm forgetting the name of the 
VC firm that we, we talked 

280
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,280
about, I don't know, maybe two 
months ago or something like 

281
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,960
that. 
And they started with the first 

282
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,640
one, which is an ICP. 
They had a very clear, they had 

283
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,880
a, a very clear kind of persona,
I would say, which was chief 

284
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,880
security or information security
officers at, you know, at, at 

285
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,960
companies. 
And then their first step was 

286
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,560
that first one, define your ICP.
And they were essentially 

287
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,040
filling out pool. 
And then they figured out 

288
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,760
supply. 
And so it wasn't that they were 

289
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,839
doing them at the same time. 
It was actually like they would 

290
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:26,119
spend I think like 6 months or 
something like that, which ended

291
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:27,200
up being a formula that worked 
with. 

292
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,320
Is that how you internal like 
interpret them? 

293
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,240
It's like even if you don't, is 
that it? 

294
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,520
It's not that the first thing is
the ICP and at the same time you

295
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,280
need the product. 
The first one could actually be 

296
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,600
understand the ICP and then 
start putting the product in 

297
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:46,000
front of them in the form of 
like a description A1 page mock 

298
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,040
up like it it doesn't. 
It doesn't necessarily mean I 

299
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,520
need to code something and I 
need to be able to pull up like 

300
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,600
an actual product. 
Yes, yeah. 

301
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,240
Yeah, exactly. 
It's and it's if you define your

302
00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,000
ICP in a way that fits pull, 
right, like you, there's not 

303
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,800
actually product or service 
shape as part of it, right? 

304
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:11,000
Like pull is product agnostic. 
It is this thing you're looking 

305
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,600
for out there, which is I'm 
trying to find a person who is 

306
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,560
stuck trying to do something 
which is not by ACRM. 

307
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,160
It is I'm trying to organize my 
sales data. 

308
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,000
I'm trying to, whatever it is, 
yeah, who is stuck because their

309
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,320
existing tools, methods, options
are not good enough. 

310
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,360
And they are so stuck that they 
will pull something out of your 

311
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,840
hands. 
And then then we have to kind of

312
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,480
just say, OK, what's the 
something? 

313
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,360
What's the shape of the 
something? 

314
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:46,680
And and that's you have to have 
a rough shape of that for them 

315
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,960
to say, yeah, that's that's what
I'm looking for. 

316
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,360
Or even just buy it. 
This, I think this is a spot 

317
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,000
where founders get really 
uncomfortable. 

318
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,640
Maybe companies in general get 
really uncomfortable around this

319
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,080
because it's like, how can I 
have these conversations if I 

320
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,880
haven't built the thing? 
You know, that's something that 

321
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,600
that's popped up with some of 
the, the founders in the last 

322
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:07,880
couple weeks in the 
conversation. 

323
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,480
And it's just like, how do, how 
do you talk with founders about 

324
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,960
getting comfortable with, like 
your version of an MVP is so 

325
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,440
simple. 
It's like, you know, you ran a 

326
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,360
business out of Google Sheets. 
You, you know, it's like, don't 

327
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,920
worry about coding something 
until you validated your ICP 

328
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,800
and, and their pool. 
How, how do you, you know, what 

329
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,400
do you tell founders when 
they're like, how, how could I 

330
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,440
possibly go sell something 
before I have a like a, a 

331
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,000
product that they could open up 
and go into a portal for 

332
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,360
whatever it might be? 
Yeah. 

333
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,280
What I, what I've typically done
is write out the pull framework 

334
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,200
with them and then say, OK, 
cool, If somebody's stuck in 

335
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,360
this situation, what's the thing
that they will RIP out of your 

336
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,000
hands? 
And then, OK, can we just write 

337
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,400
that on one slide and maybe mock
up a visual of it or just a flow

338
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,880
chart of it? 
Yeah, and that's your MVP. 

339
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,920
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's 
essentially under your tutelage 

340
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,840
what I what I've been doing and.
Golly, it's so much simpler. 

341
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,680
Let's continue. 
You, you then go sales the vibe.

342
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,000
What do you? 
What do you mean by sales? 

343
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,080
The vibe as a third most 
important thing. 

344
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:18,160
Yeah. 
So it's, it's actually your 

345
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,640
approach to sales. 
Your, the way you think about 

346
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,440
sales is more important than 
literally anything you do in the

347
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:31,280
sales process, because if you 
get the approach right, you'll 

348
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:36,520
intuit, you'll like intuitively 
do all of the rest of the things

349
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,520
and like downstream of that are 
tactics and whatnot. 

350
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,680
And, and those are useful. 
But if you come at it with the 

351
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,960
wrong way of thinking, the wrong
theory of causality, of what 

352
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,600
your role is on this call and 
what their role is on this call,

353
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:53,880
then you're just going to mess 
everything up. 

354
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,560
And the, the ways that people 
mess everything up or, or they 

355
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,440
try to convince people, they try
to interrogate people. 

356
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:04,480
They, you know, I don't know 
they we, we craft. 

357
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,720
I've I've realized actually that
most sales decks when I see them

358
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,880
first are are making a legal 
case for purchasing. 

359
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,440
So like if you agree with this 
logic you will buy our product. 

360
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,080
Yeah, I'm nilty of that. 
I think you've said that 

361
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,600
verbatim to me. 
I got like a location. 

362
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,800
Yeah, gotcha. 
I backed you into a corner. 

363
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,200
You can't not buy byproduct now.
Oh, you've agreed that you have 

364
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:31,680
these pain points. 
Yeah. 

365
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,200
Now I have unveiled my product 
and you have nodded, right. 

366
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,000
And it's. 
And so if so, if and so if 

367
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,720
you're thinking about that 
wrong, you're going to do 

368
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,480
everything else wrong in the 
sales process you're in. 

369
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,440
And it's and worse, you're not 
going to get the signals to 

370
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,240
improve. 
You're not, you're going to 

371
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,680
misinterpret what's happening. 
Would I have done? 

372
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:56,160
And so you have to get, you have
to get your mind right. 

373
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,720
Yeah, and, and the way to get 
your mind right is in this case,

374
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,440
chill, don't do the legal case. 
You write show them the product 

375
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,920
or it's basically like 
articulate, pull to them, 

376
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,880
understand their pool, show 
supply that fits that pool. 

377
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,760
And if it if it works, they'll 
pull it out of your hands. 

378
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,640
And most upstream of that is 
like, again, if they have 

379
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,080
pulled, they will pull. 
You have to chill the heck out, 

380
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,920
calm down, stop trying to 
convince them. 

381
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,240
See like. 
The goal here is to see if they 

382
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,360
need help. 
Yeah. 

383
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,800
That's it. 
Do you need help? 

384
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,240
In what form do you need help? 
And what ways are you stuck? 

385
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,680
How could I possibly unblock 
you? 

386
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,160
And you, if you're approach it 
as like, I'm here to see if you 

387
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,960
need help. 
If you don't need help, I'm not 

388
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,680
bothered. 
Yeah. 

389
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:59,000
It's a just a totally different 
mindset than coming in like I 

390
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,520
need to convince you of this. 
Yeah, yeah, which is loading 

391
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,800
yourself with pressure over 
something you really don't have 

392
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,400
control. 
A sales call like should be 0% 

393
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,840
stressful. 
Yeah, Yeah, I'm, I'm still in 

394
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,080
the in the path to achieving 
that. 

395
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:18,800
Rob, how do we want to keep 
going to this list? 

396
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,800
Do we? 
Are there a couple ones that we 

397
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,440
want to make sure that we hit? 
No, I mean, I think the the then

398
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,360
it's like, OK, cool. 
I'll just talk through the 

399
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:27,600
hierarchy of the rest of the 
things. 

400
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,480
So, OK, so once you have the 
kind of like vibe or approach to

401
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,920
sales, right, then it's like, 
OK, cool, how do you execute a 

402
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,800
sales call? 
Well, discovery is you have to 

403
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,600
fill out their pull framework. 
And there's like some tactics 

404
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,080
that you can do there. 
You can't, you can't pitch and 

405
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,360
demo effectively until you 
actually know this person's pull

406
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:52,840
framework. 
And so that comes downstream 

407
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:59,800
then if it's like cool discovery
demo, this seems like a fit. 

408
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,120
Your approach should be, OK, 
let's optimize for velocity. 

409
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,320
Let's not try to sell everything
at once. 

410
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,640
We're trying to just get 
something done relatively 

411
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,080
quickly because we want to 
optimize for learning. 

412
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,720
We won't and we can only learn 
once we've delivered and see how

413
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,320
to see what happens post sale. 
And so that's what I'm kind of 

414
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:23,000
optimizing for a sales process 
takes form based on that. 

415
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,080
And then like, OK, cool. 
Then there is, and I wasn't 

416
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,640
quite sure where to put this in 
the hierarchy is how do you get 

417
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,360
people to talk to you? 
Yeah, again, that, that I think 

418
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:38,800
is still, I think that's 
downstream of the kind of like 

419
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,760
sales process sales. 
It's definitely downstream of 

420
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,920
the thinking about sales. 
Because if you think your job is

421
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,000
to convince people, you're going
to send terrible outreach like 

422
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,280
you're going to do, you're just 
going to make a massive butchery

423
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,320
of the English language in your 
in your messaging. 

424
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,840
And so like and and there's 
people pre and post yeah, yeah, 

425
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,400
you're going to offend people 
and feel gross when you when you

426
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,080
do it. 
And and so yeah. 

427
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,960
And so there's pre before you 
figured out poll ways of getting

428
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,600
people to talk to you and after 
you figured out poll ways of 

429
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,240
getting talk to you. 
This is again super important, 

430
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,440
but also you can just get warm 
intros. 

431
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,560
You can't just go places. 
And it's like if you can't do, 

432
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,320
if you can't like figure out 
what people want and offer, 

433
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,200
offer something that fits. 
Again, you can do tons of 

434
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,720
conversations and it doesn't. 
Really matter. 

435
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:35,240
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

436
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:36,840
Interesting. 
I'm glad you hit that one One. 

437
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,720
There's a couple other gyms in 
here we won't spend a whole lot 

438
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,240
of time. 
And I actually hope you'll write

439
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,640
about some of these. 
I've got, I've got a writing 

440
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,720
list while I was reading this 
and I was like, Rob should 

441
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,160
expand on this. 
Rob should expand on this. 

442
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:48,960
Yeah. 
And if you're, if you're one of 

443
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,440
the three people listen. 
Actually now people have. 

444
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,120
I had multiple people reach out 
claiming to be the listener. 

445
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:58,280
So either I've never looked at 
the analytics here, it's an. 

446
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,320
AI, it's an AI persona. 
That's it. 

447
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,040
That's. 
That's impersonating multiple. 

448
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,160
If there are pieces in here and 
I'll write this in, but if there

449
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,280
are pieces in here you want me 
to expand on, let me know. 

450
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,400
I, I, I have plenty of things 
that I could write about, but 

451
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:14,960
yeah. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

452
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,160
A couple of my favorites are how
about how to work with the 

453
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,560
champion and deal strategy where
what you write there about 

454
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,720
pricing, I think was was very 
insightful and actually is 

455
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,960
something I've been thinking 
about lately and making a a big 

456
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,320
mistake on and the way you 
articulated that was was 

457
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,440
illuminating. 
Anyways, Rob, what should 

458
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:45,160
founders do with this? 
Follow the hierarchy you you if 

459
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,280
you're not. 
If you haven't defined your ICP 

460
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:54,120
as it relates to poll, do that. 
That will inform everything 

461
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:56,680
else. 
Yeah, yeah. 

462
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,800
Awesome. 
Well, like I, like I mentioned 

463
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,040
at the start, this one is called
the Pull Quick Start Guide, 

464
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,480
applying Pull. 
It's bookmarked on for me. 

465
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,920
It'll be out on on Friday. 
I highly recommend not just 

466
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,200
listening to this podcast, but 
like take 10 minutes and 

467
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,880
actually read through it. 
There's going to be something in

468
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,440
there that jumps out to you. 
And if there's nothing else 

469
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,200
wrong, we can let folks go. 
All right, awesome. 

470
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:22,920
We'll see you next week.