1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,120 Hey, Rob, how's it going, man? Good to see you. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,600 Yeah, you too. One month when this comes out. 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,800 Until the book comes out. How's that? 4 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,760 How's it going? I've seen a bunch of activity on 5 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,760 LinkedIn and yeah, yeah, just like people about pre-order. 6 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:14,680 I guess I don't. I have no idea. 7 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,240 I I have no idea. One of our friends sent us a 8 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:24,200 picture of him having bought 1000 copies, which I'm pretty 9 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:29,840 sure was AI generated because it had the, it had the delivery 10 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,600 date in the past. It was like 2025 delivery date. 11 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,960 But when I first saw it, I was like, yes, I'm gonna, you know, 12 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:35,680 we're gonna make it. But. 13 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,280 Yeah, we're going somewhere. Yeah. 14 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,920 You know, I, I, I was totally fooled by that. 15 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:42,360 Yeah, I looked at it and I was like, what are you doing? 16 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,400 But he's also a partner at BCG. And so I was like, I don't know, 17 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,920 maybe that's the thing that partners at BCG do. 18 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,280 Yeah, For a second I was like, oh man, I need to send him a a 19 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,280 like a really big thing. We're gonna. 20 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,920 Send him a. Really, $1000 on Yeah on a. 21 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:03,240 Book yeah, but any you know, just in case anybody didn't 22 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,280 didn't see any of that. If you pre-order the book and 23 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:11,120 then send us a screen grab of your purchase, you get links to 24 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,840 Rob's Claude skill, which is a super helpful like sales call 25 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,640 review skill and stuff. I'll put a link just so that 26 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,360 people can see it, that anything you want to have, anything you 27 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:22,960 want to refresh on on that one drive. 28 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,240 If you preorder the book and tell people about the book, it 29 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,720 will make me feel less like I have wasted the last three years 30 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,640 of my life writing it. And so for no other reason, 31 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,520 perhaps like, you know, maybe tell people about it. 32 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,840 If if you care about Rob's mental health and self esteem 33 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,840 and and things like that. Speaking of self esteem, this 34 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,680 one, this was, is personally painful. 35 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:55,160 Like I felt like an idiot while I was reading this week's blog 36 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,080 and it's it's so good. It's called pilots, POC's and 37 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,120 trials, mistaken causality and never ending pilots. 38 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,560 This is a conversation we had in the in the founder community me 39 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,240 a couple weeks back. There was some back and forth 40 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,680 around like when, when does it make sense to do free pilots? 41 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:18,440 I am the king of free pilots that do not convert into sails. 42 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:24,680 And it's so that's been this reading this, it was like, oh 43 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:26,400 man, everything's so much more clear now. 44 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,560 So anyways, if, if the listener has ever done a free pilot that 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:35,120 didn't convert or is wondering about when do pilots make sense 46 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,880 or this is a super practical one that I'm excited to dive into. 47 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,000 Rob, there's probably other context that you want to hit 48 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:44,880 before we actually talk about that subject. 49 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,920 Yeah, this is so this is a chance to have two conversations 50 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:52,400 at the same time. We're going to have it at 2 51 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:53,600 levels. We're going to have it at the 52 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,920 the let's talk about pilots and then more deeply like let's talk 53 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:01,960 about causality. And the pilot conversation is 54 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,000 the practical. It's it's it's the brownie that 55 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,840 you that you get. It's the, it's the, you know, 56 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,360 it's the dessert, but the real meal is the causality 57 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,680 conversation, which is what I'm most excited to talk about. 58 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,720 And yeah, and it's just like, this is one of the Super common 59 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:26,200 things that I got backwards. Like I remember personally going 60 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,400 to like board updates or monthly investor updates and saying I 61 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,160 it's definitely going to convert in, in June and like, definitely 62 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,200 going to convert in July. And like August. 63 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,240 I have no idea why it's not converting. 64 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,200 And, and, you know, investors continue like, is this real? 65 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,520 Like what what's going on here? And so I've been in that place 66 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,720 where you have pilots that are just not converting. 67 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,240 And it's usually because we're thinking about the entire thing 68 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,800 backwards. Yeah. 69 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,440 Let's let's hit two parts of this real quick. 70 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,240 One is you start this off with a question from a startup that you 71 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,600 received just for context to so this is the type of thing that 72 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,000 other founders are, you know, wrestling with. 73 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,600 You're right, we are. This is from the question that 74 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,200 you received. So it's from another founder. 75 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,840 We are getting into pilots and they're going well. 76 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,200 Users are getting value out of the product and usage is going 77 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,080 up, but we're struggling to line a line on success criteria with 78 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,720 our champions and deals are kind of dragging along in the pilot 79 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,080 stage. What do we do? 80 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,760 And we're, I, I can't wait to dig into that because there's 81 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,400 like a, there's a fundamental thing at the base of that that's 82 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,280 like buried in it, but that's like what it feels like to be in 83 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:40,320 that situation. And then you do this, as you've 84 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,000 alluded to the Super annoying thing, which is not give the 85 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,360 answer directly, but you say we need to understand the 86 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,200 fundamentals of what's going on here. 87 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,440 And you write when you understand this, you realize 88 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,520 that fixing things that prevent purchases does not equal doing 89 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,360 the things that cause purchases. So let's let's start on that and 90 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,600 like tease the difference out between things that prevent 91 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,400 purchases or fixing things that prevent purchases and doing 92 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,000 things that cause purchases from. 93 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,360 Can you just like go off on whatever direction you want to 94 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,560 take that? Yeah. 95 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,000 So, so this is the kind of, so this is true when I talk about 96 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,160 demos, when I talk about group demos, when I talk about steps 97 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:23,200 in a sales process, which is that we conflate things that 98 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:29,640 cause a purchase with things that prevent a purchase. 99 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:32,200 They're just like 2 categories of things. 100 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:33,840 There's a bright line between them. 101 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,360 There are basically two things that cause a purchase. 102 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:42,280 Do they have pull, AKA are they trying to do something and 103 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:45,160 blocked by all their available options? 104 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,800 That's the first thing. Second thing is do we offer 105 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,840 something that they believe fits their pull? 106 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,240 It unblocks them so they can do the thing they're trying to do. 107 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,360 That's what causes purchases. There is nothing else in that 108 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,800 category in. But then there's a lot of things 109 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:11,040 that can prevent the purchase even if the causes are present. 110 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:17,480 Now, if the causes are absent, none of the things that prevent 111 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,640 purchases matter because nothing's going to cause them to 112 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,680 purchase. So on the list of things that 113 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,680 prevent purchases, you know, pricing, if you price really, 114 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,680 really like ridiculously high, more than the, you know, more 115 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,880 than the annual budget of Estonia, right? 116 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,960 Like you might, they might not buy. 117 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,800 They they won't buy even if they have pull because they're like, 118 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,360 yeah, we can't afford that. Or if you're sales process 119 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,120 convinces them not to buy or if there's a a variety of different 120 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,760 things, if you just give weird vibes, they might not they they 121 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,400 they could not buy. So there's all these different 122 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,240 things that can prevent somebody from buying. 123 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,560 They can prevent a purchase causes versus preventions the 124 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,440 POC. So given that a proof of concept 125 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:15,360 or a pilot or a trial is not on the causes, then it's on the 126 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,160 things that can prevent. Because another thing that's on 127 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:24,640 the prevent list is time, right? Time can prevent a purchase. 128 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,200 And so adding additional steps to a sales, Add all these like 129 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,160 it, it is something that prevents. 130 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,160 And so we can go the next step here, but you had something you 131 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:35,400 wanted to add. Yeah. 132 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,360 And and just to like emphasize the difference of this. 133 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,680 You brought up one that was interesting, which was like SoC 134 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,440 2 compliance. Like, yeah, that like compliance 135 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,920 is a really good one where nobody buys because you are 136 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,920 compliant, but they won't buy if you're, if you're not compliant 137 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,280 or if you know you don't, you don't meet something that is on 138 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,400 their like IT security or on their legal requirements. 139 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,280 And I, I remember in my outbound, early outbound, I, I 140 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,440 used to sort of SoC 2 is less relevant for us. 141 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,320 There's a regulation called Copa, a Child Online Privacy 142 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,440 Act, which it regulates kids and family media. 143 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,200 And I used to include Copa actually in my outbound because 144 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,120 it was like, that's relevant. Like they probably think about 145 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,160 that. And obviously no, like now in 146 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,680 retrospect, like it's it's literally like leading with 147 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,360 something that would prevent rather than identifying the pole 148 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,440 that would cause them to buy. And then as a one sentence 149 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,400 response to a question, maybe if it comes up, then it's like, Oh 150 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,520 yeah, we know, we know about Copa and we're compliant with 151 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,200 it. And you know, like that's but 152 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,960 that's so far away from it. I don't know Rob, like other 153 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,520 commentary on that or things you would add. 154 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,720 Yeah. So it's like like IT review, 155 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:46,800 security review, like these things are things that will not 156 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,600 'cause them to buy, right. So I have found a retail and 157 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,000 they're like, hey, yeah, we don't really have a champion, 158 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,760 but somebody passed us to procurement. 159 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,880 I was like, OK, cool, they sent you there to die. 160 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:02,200 Because procurement is not never going to say yes. 161 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,560 They can't say. They can only say no or not no, 162 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,320 right? They they can't say yes. 163 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,080 And so there's all of these other things that will not 164 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,240 'cause them to buy and in fact will probably prevent you 165 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,440 prevent them from buying. And so there there's those two 166 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,480 lists of things. So if you if the causes aren't 167 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:25,680 present, they're not going to buy. 168 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,920 If the causes are present then right, like the preventers or 169 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,520 whatever we'll call those the anti causes may prevent them 170 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,440 from buying. Still, if you just focus on the 171 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,080 preventers, the anti causes, you're not going to get 172 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,640 anywhere. It's not it's not it's it's like 173 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:48,680 going and again, pitching Copa compliance, pitching sock 2 174 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:51,120 compliance, right? It's easily like, OK, cool, I 175 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,360 don't or another example of this is making your product easier to 176 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,680 use or free to try. This is a common thing. 177 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,400 Does it matter if nobody wants it? 178 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:08,000 Nobody has pulled and so and so there's all of these things on 179 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,440 on there where they are preventers. 180 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:16,000 No, we need to approach causes and preventers extremely anti 181 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,480 causes totally differently. The causes are things that we 182 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:26,920 should focus on and emphasize. The anti causes are I don't know 183 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:28,480 if that's the right word. Anyway we we haven't figured out 184 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,800 the right word for this but. The the things that leave a 185 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,640 leave a comment with the brand name that Rob should use for 186 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,240 whatever the whatever that second The thing is the thing 187 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,560 that does not cause a purchase, that can prevent a purchase. 188 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:40,360 Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. 189 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,120 So the things that prevent a purchase, we want to avoid those 190 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,880 when possible. And if we can't avoid them, we 191 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,560 want to minimize them, make them as small as humanly possible. 192 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,440 Security review is the perfect thing. 193 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,560 You don't want to say, hey, by the way, hey, you forgot the 194 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:01,800 security review. Do you want to, shouldn't we add 195 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,720 14 steps of a security review? If they don't bring up a 196 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,040 security review, you don't want to bring it up necessarily. 197 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:13,920 You would like to avoid that. Yeah, with the with these anti 198 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,840 causes or TBD on on the brand, it feels like get out of your 199 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,880 own way is kind of like the the rule of thumb. 200 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,160 And the the trap I was I was falling into was you have to 201 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,360 spend time on like talk to compliance, like you have to 202 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,640 spend time on that for Copa compliance, like we had to spend 203 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,840 time on that. And so if I came at it from a 204 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,000 supply perspective, it's like this is something that I have 205 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,040 done and I should, I should talk about the thing that I've done, 206 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,440 but that's not that's like totally the wrong frame for the 207 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,720 conversation, which should be entirely pool focused. 208 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,160 And then addressing any of these to the, I forget exactly your 209 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,160 words there, but it's like what is the least I can do to get 210 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,480 these anti causes like out of the way to not prevent the pool 211 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,360 from like causing the purchase to happen? 212 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:03,120 It's like treating them like check boxes rather than like 213 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,120 open-ended questions. And we want to, we just want to 214 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,960 minimize their size and impact on the process. 215 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,920 And, and so right like now we can jump to POC. 216 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:20,000 So when you realize that what a pilot does is prevent a 217 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,280 purchase, right? They, they, you want to avoid 218 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,440 it. What a lot of people do is they 219 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,560 propose a pilot because it seems like the right thing to do, 220 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:34,080 because it seems like a smaller thing to say yes to. 221 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,960 But this is like actually shooting yourself in the foot. 222 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:43,600 If the customer does not request a pilot, do not. 223 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,600 Propose one. Yeah, God, I feel like this is 224 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,720 one of those interstellar moments where I'm looking at 225 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,680 myself from like 18 months ago and being like, do not say that, 226 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,040 dear God, please do not say that. 227 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,960 It's going to push this back four months and then it's either 228 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:01,480 not going to happen or it's going to be frustrating. 229 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,120 Yeah, that's so rule #1 if the potential customer doesn't 230 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:08,880 propose a pilot, don't propose 1. 231 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,720 You know, for it's also for me it was avoiding the like quote 232 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,840 UN quote scarier thing, which is actually expecting them to pay 233 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,400 like real money for rather than like doing it. 234 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,080 We're actually seeing if they had pole, like actually testing 235 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:25,960 whether they had pole and whether they thought we fit 236 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:31,320 versus like just giving them something easy to say yes to or 237 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:36,280 that they'd feel bad saying no to in hopes that maybe 238 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,560 eventually they'll finally get it and love us and, and you 239 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:42,880 know. Give our life meeting. 240 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,880 All right, that SO rule #1 just straight up do not go out of 241 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,120 your way to propose a pilot. You're just adding an obstacle 242 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,600 rule #2 if the potential customer asks for a pilot, don't 243 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,440 just say yes. And here's the here, It's a 244 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,160 super interesting way that you break this down. 245 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,000 It's like, all right, what if, what if they bring it up? 246 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,240 How do I navigate that? What's what's the right way to 247 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,240 handle that conversation? And what is going on, Rob? 248 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,360 Like when, when a pilot is asking or excuse me, when a 249 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,520 customer is asking for a pilot, you know what's what's going on 250 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,440 behind that? We don't know. 251 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,880 This is the thing we need to know why they're asking, right? 252 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,400 It could, they could be asking for a pilot because pilots are 253 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,400 just a required chat box. They have to say, yeah, we some 254 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,080 big enterprises do. The way that we buy software, 255 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,480 the way we buy AI tools is we have to demonstrate that we have 256 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,360 used them in a pilot scenario and we've done it. 257 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,400 And that's just part of our procurement process. 258 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,560 OK, cool. Right. 259 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,400 That's going to lead to a pilot that takes a certain shape. 260 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:57,280 On the other hand, it might be that they're, they're asking for 261 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,720 a pilot because they have no idea what we've been talking 262 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,440 about. And this is a good way to get us 263 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,040 just to like, you know, throw this, kick the ball down the 264 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,920 down the core, right? And, and, and, or they could be 265 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,920 asking for a pilot because they don't believe that what we're 266 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,480 saying is physically possible. And so they haven't made the 267 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,080 decision to buy. Once they see the results, then 268 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,440 they'll consider whether it's worth buying or not, then 269 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,280 they'll start thinking about buying it. 270 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,320 And so there's all of these different scenarios. 271 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,840 So we have to pull that out of them to figure out what's 272 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,640 actually what's the demand behind the request for the 273 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,720 pilot, the request for the supply, Why are they asking for 274 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,760 it and base and, and usually we have to, you know, test whether 275 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,680 it's like, OK, cool. We do a pilot usually after we 276 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,800 felt like you've described your poll and said, yes, we fit poll. 277 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,640 And we've gone through all the other kind of like checklist 278 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,480 items for you to assess fit. And then the pilot is like the 279 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,360 last step before purchase. So what else do you need to know 280 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,440 to assess fit first? So that feels like yeah. 281 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,520 There's kind of a spectrum here. There's the it's almost like the 282 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,520 customer doesn't even want to do the pilot. 283 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,680 They just have to do it like their pull is so strong that 284 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,400 it's like we have to jump over this and then I'm going to buy. 285 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,520 It's like how, how quick, you know, in that case, it's how 286 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:20,720 quickly can we get through this thing? 287 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,480 And then there's these two others that you've you just 288 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,840 talked through. One is maybe if you can prove it 289 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,680 to me, like like skepticism. There's but it's pull. 290 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,120 There's pull on the other side of that skepticism and that 291 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,000 there's a I'm I'm too nice to say no. 292 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,120 And if you want to do this free thing for me, I'll go see you 293 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,200 later on. But I like I don't want to do 294 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:43,680 that. I'm not I'm not going to say no 295 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,960 to you right now, which is like the wrong place to invest any of 296 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,360 your time or effort or energy. But before we get into how to 297 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,800 design the pilot, how do you specifically interrogate to 298 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,880 understand there's probably, there's probably a couple other 299 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,360 variations that are in there. Let's talk about how to 300 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,240 interrogate that. Not not like water board, but 301 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,040 how do you have a conversation that teases out what is going on 302 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,599 behind the request for a pilot? Yeah, I, I, you could, you could 303 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,079 literally just say, yeah, cool. What's going on behind the 304 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,920 request for the pilot? Like you can just ask that 305 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,599 question. The the broader question is, 306 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:25,599 hey, yeah, we, we sometimes do pilots, but that is after you've 307 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:32,920 confirmed that this fits your needs and like, you want to 308 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,160 bring this into the organization just so long as the pilot 309 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,360 doesn't go poorly. So what else do you need to 310 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:43,800 understand to make sure this fits your needs? 311 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,840 So you confirm that like, as long as the pilot doesn't go 312 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:55,280 poorly, like we're good here. That's a very specific wording 313 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,160 that we will get to in a second. There's like specific wording 314 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,280 that as long as it does like it's not what, what do you need 315 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,280 to see as success from the pilot? 316 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:10,120 It's it's like you're already convinced before the pilot. 317 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,240 So which is going to be like like as an example, if you frame 318 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,600 that with the pause, like what do you need to see from a pilot? 319 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,600 Or here's how we typically approach pilots. 320 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,920 It's like a three month thing or whatever they they might say, 321 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,480 listen, this is just a bot. Like in their mind, it's like, 322 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,640 OK, I'm just going to do whatever you say there. 323 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,280 Like if if this is how you've done it before, but I just need 324 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,960 to check a box. It could be a one week thing 325 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:37,440 that we call a pilot or a trial or whatever. 326 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,120 And we can just like, like we just get past that. 327 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:44,120 But they're not saying. So you have to get behind the 328 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,720 you have to get behind to figure out what are they like, Have 329 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,280 they already assessed that visit fits their needs? 330 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:57,800 And then what function is the pilot performing in their heads? 331 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,920 And it shouldn't be a if the pilot goes well, then we said it 332 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,920 should be as long as the pilot doesn't go poorly. 333 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,880 Yeah. And this is done. 334 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,320 Yeah, let's, let's go back to the original quote. 335 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,520 I want you. I want your reactions to this. 336 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,360 What are they doing? Like where did the thing, the 337 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:21,600 train go off the rails basically And in the original framing of 338 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,120 this, the pilot what what the founder struggling with. 339 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,160 I'll read it again real quick. We are getting into pilots. 340 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:30,520 They are going well. Users are getting value out of 341 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,360 the product and usage is going up. 342 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,720 But we're struggling to align on success criteria with our 343 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,120 champions and deals are kind of dragging along in the pilot 344 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:40,440 stage. What do we do? 345 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,640 What? What's going on there, Rob? 346 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,320 So, So what they are doing is before the pot, they're, they're 347 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,520 just offering up a pilot is what they're doing. 348 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,040 Turns out they didn't need to offer a pilot by default. 349 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,960 People now just buy, OK, that's, that's problem. 350 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,040 But problem 2 was when they were offering up a pilot, they were 351 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,600 asking the customer the potential the champion to come 352 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,760 up with success criteria and the in the champion's mind they were 353 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,720 already sold on it. And so they had to rack their 354 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,480 brains for success criteria. It took them a while to get 355 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,720 there. The startup would propose like a 356 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,640 three month pilot. And somewhere in that realm, the 357 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,280 champion, they still hadn't figured out what success 358 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,880 criteria was. Other priorities were popping up 359 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,520 and the deal was getting kind of like derailed the champion would 360 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,200 stop showing up to the weekly check insurance because they had 361 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,480 other things to do right? Like it's just all of these, 362 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,440 we've just what the, what the founder was doing here is they 363 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:45,880 were introducing a thing that can only prevent a purchase and 364 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:53,840 expanding it and treating it more like a audition where this 365 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,320 champion is the judge and should know what they're judging based 366 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,800 off of and need to think about what they're judging. 367 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,280 So you can see how what we're doing is we're just increasing 368 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,040 the surface area for things to go wrong. 369 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:11,280 Yeah, and it it's coming from them good place. 370 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,280 Like it's like I want to create value for the customer. 371 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,560 Like the way to create value is to define success criteria to 372 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,560 stay close to define, you know, and and it ends up like you 373 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,920 mentioned earlier, just being totally counterproductive. 374 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,680 You, you mentioned something else earlier in the post that I 375 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,920 thought was, was really provocative, which is sometimes 376 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,360 the pilot quote, UN quote works like that. 377 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:39,120 Sometimes the, the pilot, it might even start as something 378 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:41,760 else in it and it's something happens and it leads to a 379 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,240 purchase. You know, and in my case, I read 380 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,840 that and my biggest sale came after like a, a pilot. 381 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,400 And So what I did, I was a result of that was assume, OK, a 382 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,400 pilot is like the path to more deals that are similar to this, 383 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,160 which is, you know, but what you just talked through the example 384 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,880 was and they had, they had, they've the fire reason that 385 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,840 they had a three month pilot. It's probably like their 386 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,200 earliest, like needed to see it or something like that. 387 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,880 And it led to sales. And so it became, you know, the 388 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,440 pilot became part of a sales process. 389 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,800 And you were like, yeah, just like, you know, we're going in 390 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,000 and doing surgery and just like taking that part of of the the 391 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,760 process out. But there's like this dangerous 392 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,240 thing that's going on, which is pilots don't always fail. 393 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,360 Like, pilots can also succeed. And that can lead to 394 00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:28,920 misinterpreting like what's what's going on? 395 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:34,280 Yeah, and it's it's when a person buys after a pilot, you 396 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,680 might think that the pilot caused them to buy when in fact 397 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,800 it might not have. And the they might have bought 398 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,960 despite the pilot, not because of the pilot. 399 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:54,880 Even if the pilot went well, it could have been a total negative 400 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,800 for them to have done. Right. 401 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,280 Like these are the things where you actually need this 402 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,600 underlying model of causality. Otherwise, what you're going to 403 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,280 do is you're going to just look at the things that happen 404 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,120 without a model in your mind, what causes and what prevents 405 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,880 and say, well, everyone we asked to lick sandpaper wound up 406 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,160 buying. Therefore, right? 407 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,040 Like, and, and this is like super like demos are the perfect 408 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,520 example of this. We think people buy because of 409 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,800 our demos. They often buy despite our 410 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,320 demos. Same with sales process. 411 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:39,040 A sales process does not convince somebody to buy. 412 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,520 The only function of a sales process is to convince somebody 413 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,960 not to buy. And so we have to design 414 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:51,520 everything knowing whether it is a cause or a opposite of A 415 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:56,840 cause, a prevent thing. And when we don't do that, we 416 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:02,160 wind up with these clunky and usually metastasizing, you know, 417 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,840 oh, you know, our first pilot went super well at three months, 418 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,000 but then our next three did it. Let's try a six month pilot. 419 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,160 Maybe that will convince them, right. 420 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,920 And it it tends to go in the opposite direction when you 421 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,880 don't know what causes versus what prevents. 422 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:21,280 Yeah, boy, you said like 6 things in there that just made 423 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,400 me cringe thinking about some of the things I've done. 424 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:28,920 Let's get into what you should frame this as and then we'll and 425 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,680 then we'll wrap. You know, you've you've 426 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,480 established at this point the question is not what do they 427 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,920 need to see in order to decide the pilot is a success, which is 428 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,000 closer to what that founder was framing it as. 429 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,280 This is what you write. We need the pilot to be closer 430 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,040 to what are the conditions under which won't buy as a result of 431 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,800 the pilot. And then assuming this doesn't 432 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,840 happen, is there anything else that needs to happen before you 433 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,280 purchase? What bring us like behind the 434 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,400 curtain? What's going on with those two 435 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,800 questions or like it are just like literally the questions you 436 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,480 would say like ask the person when they you know, when you're 437 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,720 before committing to it. Roughly like we would have a 438 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,560 conversation about, about what the exact question needs to be. 439 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,320 But what we're, what we're basically doing here is we, we 440 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:24,680 are no longer treating the pilot as a cause of success versus as 441 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,760 a potential cause of failure. And we're what we and the 442 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,760 customer have to treat it that way. 443 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,520 If we frame it to the customer as like what success criteria 444 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:43,520 would make you want to buy it, that implies that they haven't 445 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,160 yet made that decision leading up to the pilot, which implies, 446 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,800 well then maybe we should hold off on the procurement process. 447 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,040 Maybe we should hold off on all the other people who we need to 448 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,960 get thought in right like that, that has all of those negative. 449 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,800 So we need to make sure that we are both treating the pilot as 450 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,160 something that is a check box that is by default checked 451 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,400 unless like something bad could happen during. 452 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,120 If the users hate it, they don't use it at all. 453 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,800 OK, cool. Those are the negatives that can 454 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,520 take this train off the truck. Yeah, it can derail the train, 455 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:19,840 but the train is already headed there. 456 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:25,920 Yeah, it's like you've listened to a call of mine three days 457 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,320 ago, which you did not because the my framing was totally 458 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,040 flipped on that. But so they can it's it's almost 459 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,720 like, it feels to me like the client should sort of need to 460 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,520 kind of drag you into a client into a, into a pilot. 461 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,720 And you should only allow yourself to be dragged into it 462 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,640 if you know that on the other side is that is a purchase. 463 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,040 And also it should be as painless as possible while 464 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,320 you're going through the pilot. Like what? 465 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,400 What's how? OK, let's say that you 466 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,880 understand the pool, you understand what they, what would 467 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,840 cause, what would cause them to not purchase on as a result of 468 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,160 the pilot? How should you design the pilot 469 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,800 or like what principle should go into the way that you give or 470 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,240 what you give or something like that? 471 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,040 Yeah. It's basically like, what would 472 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,880 cause you to not buy and how quickly can we get? 473 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,880 Can we like show that that's not the case? 474 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,480 So you're designing around that thing? 475 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,360 Yes, exactly right. And so if it's like if the users 476 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:30,040 hate it, well, what if we do a training with the users, give 477 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,920 them two weeks with it where we're going to check in with 478 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,560 them and then get a final thumbs up, thumbs out from them, right. 479 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,680 And we're designing around the thing that can prevent a 480 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,680 purchase, not designing around the thing that would cause 481 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,120 purchase. Yeah, Rob, let's let's wrap this 482 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,680 one up pretty pretty soon. Are there other things we 483 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,160 haven't hit either related to pilots or cut this kind of 484 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,320 causality, anti causality that we haven't hit yet? 485 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:57,840 Yeah. So I would say this, this 486 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,680 causality, anti causality, whatever is, is the broader 487 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,840 thing that we are, we are exploring here. 488 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,400 And most of what we've been focused on is the causality side 489 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,840 effects pull, fitting pull, not not fitting pull, like, you 490 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,320 know, all those kinds of pieces. This is still like there are 491 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:24,400 some implications of this that I haven't yet that like I'm I 492 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,160 haven't found a way to articulate. 493 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,880 And so things like when you do discovery, you're looking for 494 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,920 the presence of causes, which means you need to assume the 495 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,880 absence of causes and test for the app like there's like that 496 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,040 kind of thing, which is makes sense in my mind. 497 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,920 But as I just said it, I saw like the white left your eyes. 498 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,880 And so we're we're we're going to keep working on on those, but 499 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,600 there's something fundamental here. 500 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,360 And and this is like AVV one of that. 501 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,440 You, you think that you're going to write a textbook about about 502 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,360 poll and about what you know about cells and startups. 503 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,160 You're actually going to write like a intro to Logic textbook 504 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,400 that's going to help dingoes like me actually understand some 505 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,120 of the things you say. Awesome. 506 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,800 Any actions that you would encourage founders to take after 507 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,360 after having listened to this? By the book. 508 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,920 Awesome by the book. One thing I this has me doing 509 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:31,920 personally is thinking through OK, what where am I conflating A 510 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,240 cause with something that could prevent or that could fail to 511 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,680 prevent or whatever the right way of saying that what is 512 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:43,160 actually causing and have I sneakily brought in things that 513 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,040 I am. It's kind of like, you know, a 514 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,680 wolf in sheep's clothing a little bit. 515 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,440 That's like kind of in my sales process that's actually 516 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,840 potentially, you know, sabotaging like my my sales. 517 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,280 And so that can be like a quick diagnosis for folks to do 518 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,720 anything else. Rob, we want to, we want to add. 519 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,880 Oh yeah. That just had a design. 520 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,600 You want to design in the causes and to the extent possible, you 521 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,440 want to design out or, or minimize the the preventions. 522 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,560 And so that's a yeah. All right. 523 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,080 I'm going to think about that for the next 4 days. 524 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,680 Awesome. Hey Rob, what's your what's your 525 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,840 deadlift at? Still four O 5. 526 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,960 I figured out. I figured out what I was doing 527 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,240 wrong. So this week heading 5 at four O 528 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,040 5, moving up to 410 next week, Mark my words. 529 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:38,840 Awesome. All right, we'll wait for that 530 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,160 for that update. Take it easy, everybody. 531 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:41,840 We'll see you next week.