1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,360 Well Rob, how you doing man? It's good. 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,000 Good to see you. You are four days into the two 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,800 week PMF Sprint and busy as can be. 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,640 Yeah, dying I think is the correct framing of it. 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,760 Now the, the, the interesting thing that I, I wanted to tell 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,320 you is that this week we have learned in in the Snyder 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,320 household that my 14 month old daughter is better at opening 8 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:28,240 child locked doors than I am. And so we have like I, I need to 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,040 get her to help me to open towards to get into the. 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,400 Cabinets and so. There's nothing that quite makes 11 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,360 you feel like, you know, when you're feeling. 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,760 I dropped the physics of the startups lecture. 13 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,480 I was like, feeling good. I was like, yeah, this is the 14 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:44,000 best thing I've ever done and that I'm asking my baby girl to 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,680 open a cabinet so I can get something. 16 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,400 It's just. It's like it's the definition of 17 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,880 having handed the inmates the keys to the prison or something. 18 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,040 Something like that. Like, yeah. 19 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,440 Yeah, it's just, it's just like we both have reached, she can't 20 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,600 even say words yet. And we've both reached this 21 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,640 understanding that like I'm just good at stuff in this room, in 22 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,360 my office and everything else. She she's got to, she's got to 23 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,080 lift the load for me. There. 24 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,960 Oh man, like my dad, he's very good at a specific thing and 25 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,040 entirely a mess in in other parts of life, yeah. 26 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,440 Yeah, yeah, it it turns out I have literally one skill and 27 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:29,480 well, let's. Let's let's keep talking about 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:29,760 that. Let's. 29 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,640 That skill hey, with the I've really enjoyed being back in TMF 30 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,360 camp. I, I think this is like my 6th 31 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,640 or 7th one that I've, I've gone through with you and one total 32 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,960 refresh of the content this time. 33 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:48,200 And so it's super interesting to see how you've incorporated more 34 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,880 of your most recent thinking. A couple things that have jumped 35 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,760 out to me. One was people are super 36 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,240 familiar with your content. Like they're coming in very like 37 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,120 they've, you've published so much that and they've they've 38 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,720 they've digested it and are implementing it. 39 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:11,440 And it's still really hard. Like you say, I, you know, when 40 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,040 I'm listening to you and this, I'm like, these are familiar 41 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,800 things, like familiar concepts. But it still requires like such 42 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,240 a fundamental reboot almost of the way of the way we talk of 43 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,080 the way we do outbound of the way that we present supply of 44 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,400 the way that we think about why, you know, it would be weird for 45 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,400 some a day to buy the thing we talked about in our last 46 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,400 podcast. Like it's and it's you like 47 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,200 watching the founders interacting, interacting with 48 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,240 you in this environment. It's like they're really, you 49 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,080 know, it's, it's just hard and is, is the way that it works 50 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,640 like there's a, an aha moment or what do you see when it's like 51 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:51,280 they go from intellectually recognizing it to, oh, I get it. 52 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,320 And and it becomes like almost an instinct I guess for how they 53 00:02:55,320 --> 00:03:00,200 how they approach it. Yeah, it's interesting because 54 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,960 I, I think you're like, everyone comes in having basically read 55 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,800 everything that I've ever. And so I'm always kind of like, 56 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,200 OK, what am I going to do on top of that? 57 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,600 And what I, what I found is like the thing that really helps, 58 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,760 which I just can't release publicly, is showing them other 59 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,960 people's calls and other people's outbound. 60 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:23,640 And the, what I've designed the program to do is put them in 61 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:27,920 situations where they have to answer questions where their 62 00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:33,680 intuitions are wrong. And so it, and that's just what 63 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,240 I found is like the best way for me to learn. 64 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,480 That's not, it's just, it's like, have a strong opinion and 65 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,200 have it just get punched in the face. 66 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,800 And, and just doing that repeatedly is my, is what I'm 67 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:53,680 trying to do to get to the like core thing, because poll is 68 00:03:53,680 --> 00:04:00,960 really simple, but it is such a foundational concept that it is, 69 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:08,000 It's like the, it's really hard to embrace when everything in 70 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,400 you is like geared towards push. Oh, well, those people could 71 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:17,000 buy, they would benefit. And oh, maybe if I, if I implant 72 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,880 this sales tactic, then they'll want it and they'll behave 73 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,600 differently. And maybe dad and like all 74 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,360 there's all of and maybe if I send this kind of message with 75 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,440 these kinds of benefits, right, with this, this kind of pitch, 76 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:34,440 because I saw it on X like it's, it's and it's all And maybe if I 77 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:39,760 add these features and and it's all of that, mm, hmm, where it's 78 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,880 we have this, I don't know, we just have this like malware 79 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,600 running. And so my hope is that by 80 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,880 showing, and I think the experience shows that start-ups 81 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,280 going through this experience, but which by the way, we don't 82 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:56,720 have the next one scheduled. I have no idea when the next one 83 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:57,960 is going to be. We'll we'll talk about it 84 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,640 another time. But but the experience of 85 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,920 start-ups going through this and embracing this is it's just a, 86 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:11,040 it's like a repeated punch in the face of like, no, stop 87 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:16,880 pushing what what you think is pull is actually you just 88 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:21,240 pitching more benefits. What you think is the right way 89 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,640 to describe your product is actually counterproductive 90 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,040 because we have to put it like, everything starts with pull. 91 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,800 And in the context of pull, everything you do has to make 92 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,200 sense. And it's just such a halt. 93 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,480 It's such a simple thing, but it's such a hard thing because 94 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,400 it touches everything else. Yeah. 95 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,000 And one, one example of that yesterday was outbound and 96 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,160 taking my perspective from the outside of like observing the 97 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,680 result of having you develop the content, It seems like the 98 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,520 approach there was you were reinforcing the idea of outbound 99 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,880 as a system and we need to think about it as a system. 100 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,720 And you, you kept popping up examples that were like 101 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,760 imperfect. One of them had emojis like 102 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,080 they're, they're just like a bunch of very imperfect and the 103 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,000 whole group could sit, could like critique them individually 104 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,920 and find tweaks. And the the take away was like, 105 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,480 it's working, it's generating like the system functions. 106 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,400 And so stop screwing it up. Like that's not the thing to 107 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,640 focus on. And it, you know, I think the 108 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,240 third time that, you know, like ran through that example and we 109 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,080 were still falling into the city like a similar, like a similar 110 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,840 trap. I was like OK like time to time 111 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:41,960 to rejigger the the screws a little bit on this one. 112 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:45,520 Yeah, yeah, that was fun. That's it's fun too, because 113 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,760 yeah, I, I actually enjoy my role here, which is to kind of 114 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:54,960 lead people like it's I, I'm finding my, my vibe in this is 115 00:06:54,960 --> 00:07:00,760 to lead people in the wrong direction and like, oh, wait, 116 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,960 where are we now? Like what wait, what do we mean 117 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,280 here? And and that that's been that's, 118 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,000 that's just a fun thing. Yeah, and I do think this this 119 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,880 PMF camp has been a lot of fun. It's a really great set of 120 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,640 founders that are that are really active and engaged. 121 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,720 Well, why don't we jump into investor pull, which is the the 122 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,320 title of your sub stack this week. 123 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:24,760 We are. We are. 124 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,000 We're talking about VCs, which as a bootstrapping founder who's 125 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,320 never pitched to VC like I know nothing about this and so. 126 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,520 Lucky you everyone who knows about VCs listening to this all. 127 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,160 All four people are like you lucky dog at this point. 128 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,440 But it's just. Everyone just thought that 129 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:50,920 because, yeah, no, it's this is not a topic, one that I care 130 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,360 about. To be clear, I've raised money. 131 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,240 I've helped a bunch of startups with their pitches. 132 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,920 I don't enjoy it. I don't think about it very 133 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,520 much. I don't care about it very much. 134 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,960 But I thought it was an interesting lens to explain a 135 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:10,800 thing that is very common in, but how we misunderstand pull. 136 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,000 Cause investors have pull, they take actions, they make choices, 137 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,280 they obviously they have pull. And so there's a just common 138 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,600 trap that I see founders fall into with their investor pitch, 139 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,920 especially the ones who have listened to us for a while. 140 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,960 And and yeah, that's a fun. That's that's actually that is 141 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,840 interesting because the way that or anyways, let's let's let me 142 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,120 hold off on on that until we actually lay out what your your 143 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,640 case is in this essentially what you actually who is this any, 144 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,480 anything for there to clarify on like who this is for and why 145 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,600 this is on your mind. This is also relevant to you if 146 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,920 you're not fundraising, if your boots wrapped, because we're 147 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,400 going to talk about investors, but it's an analogy for 148 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,160 understanding what poll actually is. 149 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,760 Yeah. And you know, you've worked with 150 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,120 a bunch of founders who they were bootstrapped and then they 151 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:08,400 hit PMF and all of a sudden, you know, you, you your product is 152 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,160 taking off. You need to grow your team. 153 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,400 And so there might be like a cash flow like, you know, issue 154 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,480 and you need to bring on investors or something like 155 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,520 that. And so this is like a helpful, 156 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,520 helpful framework to have and kind of in the back of your head 157 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:24,400 and the off chance that, you know, you need a fundraise, 158 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,880 Yeah, for a. Friend start up bootstrapped and 159 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,200 you know, two years later it's like, oops, we raised 50 million 160 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:36,760 bucks like it's so you may want to be bootstrapped, you may 161 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,080 aspire to be bootstrapped, but the market might force you into 162 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:40,640 another path. And I think that's the same is 163 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,920 true with WP Engine with Jason Cohen. 164 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,600 And like they were like, I think we could maybe get this to 20 KA 165 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,360 month in revenue and then we can just chill when it turns out 166 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,640 they became a Unicorn because the market had other ideas. 167 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:54,800 That's really funny. That's really funny. 168 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:59,600 What you talk about two ways of approaching VCs. 169 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,760 Do you want to outline that, or do you want me to read from 170 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:03,080 your? Blog. 171 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:03,920 Yeah, I know. So. 172 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:10,080 So the general thesis here is that your pitch to AVC has a 173 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,120 theory in it. It has as a theory of what AV CS 174 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,000 poll is or what the project is on their To Do List. 175 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:23,000 And the most common one I see of our kind of founder, AKA 176 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:29,440 overthinker and overachiever type is that we're making a 177 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:34,120 logical case for them to invest, which is like, we're a strong 178 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,000 team. We have strong traction. 179 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,120 We have proven something small and that thing could grow and be 180 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,360 big someday, right? And it's basically the legal 181 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:48,200 case or the, it's, it's a, it's based on the theory that AVC 182 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:53,440 makes a decision to invest or not based on, is this a good 183 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,440 team? Is this based on like a set of 184 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,840 criteria like that, a set of, of logical, sensible criteria. 185 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,440 And in fact, what I have seen is that that kind of pitch 186 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:12,520 generates A yawn because, well, you might hear that from your 187 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,920 typical early stage VC. That is not actually what their 188 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,720 pull is, what the project is on their To Do List. 189 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,240 And, and it's really subtle because it's like, oh, I want to 190 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,760 invest in a good team, good company, da da, da, da, da, 191 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:26,480 right. Like that. 192 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,040 That's a, that's a really sensible, obvious thing. 193 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,160 You can watch them invest like their job is to invest. 194 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,400 Don't they want to invest in good company? 195 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:42,240 Well, not quite, because what their poll seems to actually be 196 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,400 is I want to not miss out on something that could be massive. 197 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:52,040 And the difference there leads to a totally different pitch, 198 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,560 totally different approach to even the fundraising process. 199 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,520 And so it is, yeah, it's just subtle difference between I want 200 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,920 to invest in good team versus I want to not miss out on next big 201 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,720 thing leads to a totally different everything. 202 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,120 Yeah. And what are maybe let's talk 203 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,360 about the approach, anything that you'd like to add on? 204 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,880 Like what's the approach that you know, the the logical quote 205 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,440 UN quote, like maybe a slightly more conservative like somebody 206 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,480 that's really trying to build a very solid business and then 207 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,120 they communicate to VCs in that way. 208 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:27,480 How do they how do they approach it? 209 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,680 Yeah, so they will, they will usually start the from the point 210 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:35,240 of luck, what are we doing, which is like sensible, what are 211 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,520 we doing right now and where could it go? 212 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,960 And so they'll start like the, you know, all pitches start with 213 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,280 like, oh, the problem that we're solving, right. 214 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,920 And it might be in this case, it would be like, I don't know, I'm 215 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,880 just thinking of a friend, the startup that just raised and, 216 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,760 you know, they're doing, you know, construction stuff and OK, 217 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,000 cool. So this part of the problem in 218 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,000 construction is like a 5 billion problem a year and it's really 219 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,480 annoying for them. And we have a great solution to 220 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,480 it. And this could also go and grow 221 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,480 to this other thing, right? Like it could also grow and we 222 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,960 can handle these other problems in in construction as well, 223 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,040 right? And that if you hear that you're 224 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,440 like, yeah, that makes total sense. 225 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,480 They like you and I listen to that. 226 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,360 And there are some VCs out there like that will listen to that 227 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,000 and be like, Yep, I get it. I see it. 228 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:29,520 But that's not a that's an if a if a investor makes a decision 229 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,960 based on I don't want to miss out on something on the next 230 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:36,520 like Unicorn. That's totally wrong as the 231 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,800 pitch you have to start. I have the kind of like normal, 232 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,560 like practical crazy. Yeah. 233 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,560 Yeah, yeah. And that I've, I've drawn this 234 00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:51,720 on many whiteboards when when analyzing pitches before and 235 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:52,960 it's, it's always the same thing. 236 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,320 It's always the same approach here because it's like you're in 237 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,400 your business trying to explain your business to an investor. 238 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,120 And and so you're like, you're going to probably take the 239 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,520 practical route throughout the pitch with like AO and this 240 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,280 could be even bigger in the future, like here's our path to 241 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,560 a big company at the very end. But you've already lost them by 242 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:19,120 that point because again, their, their project was not like, I 243 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,360 want to invest in a solid team da, da, da, da, da. 244 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:27,240 So you have to go and say all of construction is about to be 245 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,040 totally destroyed, right? Or it's going to be totally 246 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,960 replaced by AI. All of these roles, there's this 247 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,720 billion in in wages that are going to be in like that. 248 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,040 That might not be true, but it's crazy enough that it's like that 249 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,720 that it's like, oh, wow, I don't want to miss out on this. 250 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,680 Like this seems like the This seems like it's on the order of 251 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,800 magnitude of a thing that I would be crazy to miss out on. 252 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,120 And so the like what you have in this for anybody on, on Spotify 253 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,080 or YouTube, you can, you can pull it up on other platforms. 254 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,360 What we can just describe it. And I will put the link to this 255 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,000 in the in the show notes. But what you show is like a gap 256 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,960 between the crazy approach and the practical approach. 257 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,960 And they're both essentially linear or like horizontal 258 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,640 through problem solution product team. 259 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,920 The practical approach is a more conservative way of of 260 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,800 presenting it that crazy is like a step change above it. 261 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,880 And then they they converge on traction, which is I guess like 262 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,200 what are you doing now? Like don't lie about what your 263 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,880 business is and your your results today. 264 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,880 And then the vision again, like the slope just totally 265 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,480 dramatically changes. But how, how should I, how 266 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,120 should I interpret this? Like what in particular? 267 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,240 Like when presenting problem, solution, product and team? 268 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,320 Why are those different? Yeah. 269 00:15:52,320 --> 00:16:01,280 So it's, it's a, a, if you think that VCs make decisions based on 270 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,720 like just investing in solid companies, you're going to 271 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,840 position yourself as close to reality and say, we are solid 272 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,880 operators, we are solid. Here's the problem. 273 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,840 We're going on for da, da, da, da, da, right? 274 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,840 And that's you're, you're just kind of like living in reality 275 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:19,400 for the which like, again, this makes sense to us. 276 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,040 And it makes sense when you're in the business of like, I'm 277 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,280 trying to explain you the business because my theory of 278 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,880 your poll is you're going to invest in a solid business with 279 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,520 strong upside potential. Da, da, da, da, da. 280 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,600 And it's like, OK, cool. The the actual anatomy of the 281 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,840 pitch has to be basically insane. 282 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,680 Look like kind of insane because it has to seem like it's 283 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,880 basically inevitable that there's going to be a $10 284 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,120 million company. And so the, the, even the 285 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,000 structure of the, the structure of the story is totally 286 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,440 different where it's not like we're solid operators, we're 287 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,840 doing da da, da, da, da, we're starting here, right? 288 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,040 Like it has to be like, no, this here's this massive thing that 289 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,840 is totally changing here's right like this huge opportunity 290 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,079 window that only we can see. We've done all this crazy stuff 291 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,240 and right now we're just here but actually right. 292 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:13,079 And then you, you dip your toe back into reality, but then you 293 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:17,599 kind of you keep it at the big broad pitch, like the, the big, 294 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,440 very future oriented pitch, right? 295 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,800 Like there's, there's one theory, the, the, the kind of 296 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,240 practical theory here is that they're investing based on 297 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,720 traction and like the past, the crazy is like, no, they're 298 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,760 investing based on the probability of becoming a $10 299 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,960 billion.10, you know, whatever billion dollar revenue company. 300 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,080 Well, let me run some of the past you, Rob that you're you're 301 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:41,400 listening to you is making me think through. 302 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,760 It's like, is this the, the, the VC version of like the used car 303 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,240 lemons problem where like when they're buying, they're so 304 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,280 heavily discounting everything because they just as that if you 305 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:59,560 go in there and you tell them like the a reasonable, like, you 306 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,720 know, the grounded and the, the way you really think about your 307 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,720 business view of your business, they are then going to apply 308 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,960 that same discount because from the outside, they can't see the, 309 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:11,840 the difference between these two types. 310 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,560 I don't know. So I I think of it as like 311 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,320 investors have pull and investors have pull and if we 312 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,600 understand what the real project they are trying to do is. 313 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:27,440 You just talk about it differently. 314 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,280 Talk about it differently and you approach the fundraise 315 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:31,840 differently. There's all this stuff out there 316 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,880 about like, OK, you want to do you want to structure a 317 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,840 fundraising process to generate FOMO basically, right. 318 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:44,360 And it's like, OK, cool that that again ties to this theory 319 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:47,160 that they're not looking to invest, like in theory, they're 320 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,400 kind of looking to invest in the best companies. 321 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,880 But their true project is I don't want to miss out on the 322 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,040 next trillion dollar company. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 323 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,640 The the embarrassing headline of like passed up on Uber because, 324 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,680 you know, partners said that never blah blah blah and then 325 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,600 market was too. Small and. 326 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:09,880 Like never going to overcome these obstacles. 327 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,360 Yeah, that makes that that's that's super interesting. 328 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:19,800 And in my world, which is closer to impact, we, I spent about 329 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,320 more of the more or less about a year trying to figure out what 330 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,760 foundations were and what their, what their animus was, what they 331 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,680 were trying to achieve. And I, I approached it from this 332 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,800 red line perspective, which is like, you know, media is, you 333 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,840 know, research supported for impact. 334 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,120 It's scalable, it's got an audience, blah, blah, blah. 335 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,960 And they're their objective and foundations. 336 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:45,840 As far as I can tell. I've never worked in these 337 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,760 things, but my like I met the yawns and what I, I kept looking 338 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,920 at their like portfolios and being like, some of this stuff 339 00:19:54,920 --> 00:20:00,680 just seems silly and like, but it was silly. 340 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,520 And reflecting on it, it was silly in a direction that 341 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,800 achieved something else, which is like. 342 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,280 Probably highly memorable or, or something that they could, they 343 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,040 could then sell and like champion to their their donors 344 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,640 or to their board. Like it was, it was more it was 345 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,080 presented. It was, I suspect, kind of 346 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:24,960 present. The story that they could wrap 347 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,160 around. It was so much stronger, even if 348 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,080 the impact was much more limited that I like the way it felt to 349 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:33,760 me. And I don't know if founders who 350 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,280 have gone through fundraising, it's like I left that thinking 351 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,720 like, what am I missing? Like what how could how could 352 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,600 somebody go after this thing which is going to like literally 353 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,840 by definition have a reach of 10 or 15 people for an incredible 354 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,200 expense and miss like this other thing that has, you know, 355 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,120 potentially 100,000? And I think it's just because 356 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:57,960 the story that like they were optimizing for what is something 357 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,880 that might I can get my board really jazzed about and believe 358 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,480 in my continued support or something along those lines. 359 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,240 Yeah. That and that's the thing here 360 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,800 is like if you misunderstand the project on the customer's To Do 361 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,280 List on on just whoever you're interacting with. 362 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,160 If you don't understand what the real project in their mind, in 363 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:23,200 their soul is, or if you and even subtly misinterpreted here 364 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:27,440 like these are subtle interpretation errors here of 365 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,280 like, like we we see what they're doing, they are 366 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,520 investing, they are buying, they are doing whatever, right. 367 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,320 And we it's like, I think I understand why you're doing it. 368 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,920 Yeah, but if you have these kinds of experiences where it's 369 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,640 like this, this doesn't feel right. 370 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,080 I don't understand why they funded that and not this. 371 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,880 I don't understand why they bought that and not that I don't 372 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,720 understand why anybody buys work day versus blank right. 373 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,840 Like it's, it's. It all makes sense to them, and 374 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,760 it makes sense in. Their head, they're they're. 375 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,960 What they are doing follows a kind of logic if you trace it 376 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,080 back to the real project on their To Do List. 377 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,720 And so that's the that's the kind of point here is if like if 378 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,200 it, this is a sign, right? If it feels like you're pushing, 379 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,800 if it feels in in your case or in a founder's case when it 380 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,840 doesn't quite land, you're not sure why. 381 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,240 It's like, well, maybe let me add more detail. 382 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,160 Let me add more whatever to it. It's like, no, we have to 383 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,960 actually understand what is the project on this person's To Do 384 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,160 List, what is their pull, because in your case, there's no 385 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,200 amount of additional detail you could have added. 386 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,440 Yeah. Yeah, exactly you. 387 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,640 Have to change the story to fit the thing in their brain. 388 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,480 Yeah, yeah, one of our, one of our mutual mentors, I think does 389 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,240 this really well. And he had figured it, he had 390 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,520 figured it out around storytelling. 391 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,760 And I, I was like, what do I do with this? 392 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,720 And, and looking back on it, it's like, oh, oh, like that's 393 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,840 that like you had, he had, I think intuitively tacked into 394 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,600 this is the thing that like these types of foundations that 395 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,280 this particular type of that's, you know, they're not a 396 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,080 customer, but in a certain way, they are like that somewhere 397 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:17,280 between a customer and an investor. 398 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:22,240 And like, they like this is the thing that they, they need that 399 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,400 they, that they're trying to do. And they would never say that 400 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,280 out loud, like or very rarely. It would be really hard to find 401 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,160 one and hard, probably hard to find AVC also that that would 402 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,280 say the things in the sequence that you said them, but it's but 403 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:39,640 behind it, you can kind of like navigate to understand or I 404 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,000 guess, you know, how would you maybe what advice would you give 405 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,560 to not all about not all VCs are the same. 406 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,000 I imagine not all VCs are doing like, you know, have have this 407 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,280 approach or it's maybe a blend or something like that. 408 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,000 How, how should founders go about identifying if they are 409 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,360 fundraising? What is the motivation or like 410 00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:59,240 what, what are what's the job they're trying to accomplish? 411 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,040 What's the pull for the VC? Yeah, I mean, I think so. 412 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,640 I think if AVC is presented with something that they believe has 413 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,800 a credible chance of being a $10 billion deck of corn type 414 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,280 company, they would be weird not to invest in that. 415 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,400 And so it's, it's like I that is in general, the rule for VCs. 416 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,680 There are exceptions. I've met quite a few exceptions. 417 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,680 They're Gray and they'll tell you why they're different and 418 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,760 how they think about it differently. 419 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,280 And they'll ask for right to discuss this at a different 420 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,560 level. But you should by default assume 421 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:38,040 that this is the, the actual project on an early stage V CS 422 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,640 To Do List, right? There's later stage with all 423 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,040 this other stuff, but early stage V CS, that's kind of what 424 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,480 they're thinking. And it's a it's a blend of big 425 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,560 thing and team that seems to be able to execute be like crazy 426 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,960 enough to execute on it. But I think there's like a 427 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,080 general zoom out thing here, which is this is a this is a 428 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:01,040 principal pull projects on To Do List is whenever you're dealing 429 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,880 with somebody that you don't control and you want them to do 430 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,360 something or you want them, right? 431 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:09,920 Like I want you to invest in me. I want you to buy from me. 432 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,280 I want da da, da da da, right? Like you just you don't control 433 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,280 them. So you have to figure out what 434 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,840 they want or what they are trying to do. 435 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,880 And the the, and this is like relevant if you're building a 436 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,400 feature, if you're building right, if you want them to use 437 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,120 something, you won't just want them to do something. 438 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,120 You have to figure out what they are trying to do. 439 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:36,800 And the there's just a nuance to this of two things that seem 440 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,520 like they're basically the exact same thing if you squint lead to 441 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,200 totally different behaviors here. 442 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,800 And so I think this is just like an interesting case of how that 443 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,160 comes to be and how that that shows up in fundraising. 444 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,560 But this also shows up in like the products. 445 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,920 I, I mentioned Rippling and Gusto and payroll here where 446 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,840 it's like, OK, we both, yeah, they're at slightly different 447 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,480 times. But like, the story is roughly 448 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,880 that they both looked at people who are doing payroll with old 449 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,760 clunky systems, payroll and HR stuff with old clunky, you know, 450 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:14,200 first Gen. systems and, and they're like, OK, cool. 451 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,760 Like clearly people are struggling against this. 452 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,560 Clearly they will RIP something out of our hands. 453 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,000 But they had slightly different interpretations of what buyers 454 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,280 wanted. So Gusto, for example, was like, 455 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,440 well, what they really want is to do the to have this work be 456 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,600 delightful. They don't want to be looking at 457 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,120 something that like, you know, basically looks like MS-DOS 458 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,040 right and and functions like it. It's just like ugly, difficult, 459 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,440 a lot of clicks. They just want something that's 460 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,560 like really clean and nice to deal. 461 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,920 They want a nice experience and Ripling, I feel like came and 462 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,840 was like, yeah, no, they just want to automate every all of 463 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,040 the tusks. They want to do nothing to do 464 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,480 with this. And those are like very, these 465 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,360 are subtly different, but lead to Ripling has a really 466 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,720 interesting architecture to their product that I don't think 467 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,080 Gusto has. And it wound up being OK. 468 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,960 Well, the kind of person who actually cares about the 469 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,560 experience in Gusto's case is a smaller business, I'm pretty 470 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,360 sure because it's, it's the owner of the business who's the 471 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:18,040 one clicking and logging in and da, da, da, da. 472 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,480 And, and for Rippling, well, maybe it's bigger companies 473 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,720 where that's the case. And so it's you can see how just 474 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:28,280 like those subtle differences in understanding what the project 475 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,960 on a buyer's To Do List, they lead to totally different 476 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,280 businesses. Yeah, fascinating. 477 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,680 I love it. It's got it's making me think 478 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,520 about a customer but that I'm working with right now. 479 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,680 But why don't we keep this one, this one short? 480 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,560 Any other takeaways from this one, Rob, that you'd leave with? 481 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,240 Leave with Founders I. Don't know I blocked out like 482 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,600 admin free. Rob is Rob is tired right now, 483 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,880 but you're gonna, if you listen to this, you'll be surprised at 484 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,240 some of the insights that you dropped. 485 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,440 Probably. Well, this was great. 486 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,960 PMF camp is going on right now. But as a just like APSA, excuse 487 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,840 me, the sessions are recorded. We keep them on, you know, on a, 488 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,960 on a notion that founders in the community can access. 489 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,880 And so you don't have to wait until like there's an upcoming 490 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,360 PMF camp to get access to it. If you hit a moment where it's 491 00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:20,040 like I'm wrestling with some of the stuff, I'd love to get 492 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:22,920 closer to Rob's ideas. Like there's async stuff and 493 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,960 there's also one-on-one ways to to work with Rob. 494 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:30,800 Anything else, Rob, that we want to add before we we end today? 495 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:32,640 There was something, but I've already. 496 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,800 Forgotten it, so it's gone. OK, we'll put it in the show 497 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:35,960 notes if so. All right. 498 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,360 Take care, everybody. We'll see you in a week.