1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,760 Hey, Rob, welcome back. Good to see you man. 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,520 Yeah, good to be back. Yeah, and I'm speaking with a 3 00:00:06,520 --> 00:00:09,120 world champion weightlifter. I hear that's what that's what 4 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:11,480 rumors on the startup street are. 5 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,760 Yeah, I know, I know. I hit my three first £300 squat 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:21,360 over the weekend, which to a person who doesn't lift weights, 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,680 it's like, wow, 300 lbs sounds sounds like a lot of weights. 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,760 And then to anybody who lifts weights, they're like, wow, I 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,280 can't believe you've never done that before. 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:35,480 That's all right. So we'll when we advertise this, 11 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:38,520 we'll try to get exclusively the part of your audience that is 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,880 not into weightlifting to listen to this one. 13 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,840 We'll, we'll all like nod our heads and be like, wow, that's, 14 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:45,520 that's probably impressive. I don't know. 15 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,240 I don't think I could do that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 16 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,280 We, we need, yeah, I need to be around the people who have never 17 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,120 lived. Well, we, I, I met a friend out 18 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,320 in Utah and he told me yeah. I was like, oh, we have been 19 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,080 lifting. I've been like getting a lot, I 20 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:00,720 feel like a lot getting a lot stronger. 21 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,440 And I was like, by the way, like you, you lift weights too. 22 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,200 He's like, yeah, squat 450 or I've squatted 450 before. 23 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,360 And I was like, OK, cool. I'm going to just never talk 24 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,320 again so. Yeah, exactly. 25 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,280 I need I need to be around people that make me feel better 26 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,680 about myself constantly and are very impressed by my minor 27 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,760 accomplishments. Exactly. 28 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,160 Well, that's that's why you hang out with me. 29 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,200 Well, today we're jumping into customer language. 30 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,000 One O 1 is the name of the sub stack. 31 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,040 We'll link to it in the in the show notes is a translation 32 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,560 guide. We're diving deep into demand 33 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,360 hairballs into basically, you know, we've talked a lot about 34 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,960 like what or last week we talked about what's the sales script? 35 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,440 How do you go through a structure of sale early in the 36 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,160 call? You are almost certainly on mini 37 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,680 calls, you're going to run into a demand airball like which is 38 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,640 basically why did you take this call or what's you know, it 39 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,120 comes after an open-ended question about what's what it 40 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:00,520 what's the project they're working on? 41 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,200 And then they you know, they vomit out something and it's 42 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,039 your job then on to like live interpret. 43 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:15,120 And this this week's post is helping us understand how to do 44 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:16,680 that. But why don't Rob? 45 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,040 Is there other contacts on why this is on your mind and who 46 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,760 this one is best suited for? Yeah, this, and this is for 47 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:30,560 basically any time a customer talks, you have to interpret 48 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:36,160 what they're saying. And it seems like a thing that 49 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,480 you should be able to do fairly easily because you've been 50 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,640 talking to people for like your entire life and you've been 51 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,600 interpreting what other people have said your entire life. 52 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:54,040 And So what tends to happen is we think we understand what 53 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:59,120 they're saying and we don't. And so I basically had to create 54 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,520 this new I, I'd previously called whenever a customer 55 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,360 talks, you know, they often like do this kind of like long 56 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,960 monologue. I'd called that a demand 57 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,520 hairball, which is funny because it is like a they're just kind 58 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,040 of like hacking up a hairball. I was like, oh, that's, that's 59 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,280 gross. But the word demand in there 60 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:23,080 implies they're just talking in demand language as if they're 61 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,520 they're literally just on the demand side, which is never the 62 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,680 case. That is never the case. 63 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,640 And so I don't like the term demand hairball. 64 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:33,040 I don't, I'm going to stop using that. 65 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,920 It's just a hairball and it's customer language. 66 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,720 And so this post is hopefully going to be your translation 67 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:48,320 guide to or the start of your translation guide to how to 68 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,760 interpret the things that customers are saying and of the 69 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,320 things they are saying, what do they mean and what should you 70 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:56,920 trust and what should you not trust? 71 00:03:58,480 --> 00:03:59,600 Yeah. OK. 72 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,920 Well, rest in peace, demand hairball. 73 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:07,520 You've evolved into your, your second, your second version, 74 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,360 which is just the customer hairball or the hairball or 75 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,720 something like that. Let me, I'm going to, I'm going 76 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,080 to read something today. Kick us off. 77 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,839 I think that was a really good intro right there. 78 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,839 But this is what you wrote in the in the blog. 79 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,720 Customers do not speak demand language. 80 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,280 They speak customer language. Customer language spans demand, 81 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:31,880 supply and random nonsense. The scary part about customer 82 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,320 language is that it sounds like our language. 83 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,680 Imagine a foreign language that uses all the same words and 84 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,240 grammar that we use, but the meanings of the words of the 85 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,440 words and sentences are wildly different. 86 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,880 Sometimes that's customer language. 87 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:52,200 Let's maybe Rob, like when you tell us a little bit about this 88 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,080 translation that you're talking about or like, why is this? 89 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,920 Why is it not as simple and straightforward as listen to 90 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,440 customer understand their demand? 91 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,160 Like what's? What's complicated about it? 92 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:13,960 Yeah, the so I really, really like the the idea of two totally 93 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,200 different languages that use all of the same words and sentences 94 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,160 because then what's going to happen is you're speaking those 95 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,560 languages to each other, but and like you're both forming some 96 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,760 picture in your head of what is happening in the conversation 97 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,800 and the pictures in your heads are totally different. 98 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:40,040 And so I think the challenge is that customers will talk about 99 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,840 things that they're trying to give you context, they're trying 100 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:47,440 to tell, they're trying to communicate things and they 101 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,160 don't have very precise ways to communicate what they're trying 102 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,040 to communicate. And so and sometimes they don't 103 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,040 feel comfortable communicating what they're trying to 104 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,640 communicate. And so they speak in a way that 105 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:05,800 is kind of hard to decipher. It is it is seems to outwardly 106 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,000 make sense if each sentence is logical, the whole thing seems 107 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,600 kind of logical when you look at it. 108 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,520 But when you were trying to interpret it and like, OK, what 109 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,360 do they actually want? What would they pay me for what? 110 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:21,840 What are what are they saying here? 111 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,720 There are a million ways to look at it based on what they 112 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:32,080 literally say that could lead you to, and quite often lead us 113 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:36,640 to try to sell them the totally wrong thing that makes them feel 114 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,040 like we weren't listening at all. 115 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,280 Yeah. Or there are and and like that 116 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:43,720 can lead you to build the wrong thing. 117 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:49,520 And so it's just we we we kind of like see what they are saying 118 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:55,440 and interpret it our own way. And that is usually in my 119 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,560 experience wrong because it misses the nuances of customer 120 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,280 language where, you know, as an example, if they're talking 121 00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:11,840 about like, I want ACRM, right, what I'm looking for is ACRM or 122 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,440 an alternative to Salesforce that is like that. 123 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,520 I don't trust that. Yeah. 124 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,960 So like we can, we can get into it, but like, certain things 125 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,040 they say are not the are not actually what they mean. 126 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,960 They're just using the closest words to them to explain 127 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,520 something. And if you take what they say at 128 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:35,840 face value, you're going to be wrong. 129 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,960 That it's, it's making me reflect a little bit about like 130 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,240 relationships. And it's like you, you go 131 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,280 through this like period of okay, when, when she or he says 132 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,880 this thing, this is the way I interpret that. 133 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,960 And you're like, the first way that you inter, you react to it 134 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,480 is, is wrong. It's just like it's always wrong 135 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,080 and there's confusion and chaos and that's it. 136 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,000 It's a different dynamic, obviously, one, because we're in 137 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,280 a relationship with them, and two, because it's repeated. 138 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,640 And so you can refine over time. And this is an art that you have 139 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,640 to hone. How do I interpret live get it 140 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,680 right the first time that I interact and maybe the last time 141 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,000 that you interact with like with a with a customer? 142 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,880 But I think the interesting thing there is like each kind of 143 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,440 like each person. I thought about going the like 144 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,960 dating direction, but I was like, I don't think I can. 145 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,720 I don't think I could do that. A long time since you dated her, 146 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,920 but. Yeah, or or the spouse direction 147 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,840 too because you still but like that's a one to one kind of 148 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,720 thing. I think there are there are 149 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,320 commonalities across all customer language. 150 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,679 So every time a customer speaks, they all kind of speak the same 151 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,840 language or they they're the same structures underneath the 152 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,920 language they speak. Oh, interesting, interesting. 153 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:51,880 We'll we'll get into that structure here in a moment. 154 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,560 Rob, do we want to ground in the example that you embed in the in 155 00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:00,120 the sub stack? Yeah, so. 156 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,720 Want me to I can I can read it for context maybe just so that. 157 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:06,400 Yeah, I think I think that makes sense. 158 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,520 So what what I wanted to do with this post is I wanted to give 159 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,680 you an example that is it's kind of it's it's kind of a real 160 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:14,760 example kind of not. I tried to kind of blend it so 161 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,360 it's a little bit less less obvious what company it is and 162 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,040 all that kind of stuff. But this is also in the book, 163 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,440 not very blended. And so by the book you'll see 164 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,920 the whole thing. And So what I wanted to do is I 165 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:31,480 wanted to give you this example. And what I want you to do is I 166 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,800 want you if you're reading the post or if you're listening 167 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:40,040 here, I want you to pause before we get into the translation 168 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:41,880 guide. I want you to answer the 169 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:48,560 questions what does this person want, if anything? 170 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:52,960 Yeah. And is do they actually like, do 171 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,640 they actually, are they going to buy something? 172 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,120 If so, what do they want to buy? What should we pick based on 173 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,200 this? You know, I was, I did that 174 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,920 exercise. I've seen you do this, like tear 175 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:04,680 this down. I don't know, five times. 176 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:07,040 I've like a bunch of times at this point. 177 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:12,800 And I was thinking about this one while I was reading it and I 178 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,040 was like, I know the answer to this. 179 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,760 And I still have a hard time like identifying in like there's 180 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,600 so much information that's in it that it's, it's, it's hard to 181 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,600 find. But let me, let me, I'll go 182 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,920 ahead and read this. So this is that imagine that I'm 183 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:31,560 yeah, what was the question that preceded this? 184 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:34,400 Like why did you take the meeting or like what's the 185 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,160 context or something like that? And this is the potential 186 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,760 customers response. Yes. 187 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,600 So we've been struggling with Salesforce ever since I've been 188 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,480 here, which is wow, going on like 5 years now. 189 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,520 Crazy out, time flies. Anyways, we're obviously a 190 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,320 mission driven nonprofit and Salesforce doesn't feel like 191 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,480 it's built for us and what we need to do, managing volunteers 192 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,680 and whatnot. I know other people who are in 193 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:01,160 sales roles obviously and in tech or whatever, and Salesforce 194 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,240 seems like a great fit for them. But for us, we've had to get a 195 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,600 bunch of consultants to come in and try to clean it up. 196 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,720 And we've had multiple rounds of that in my time here. 197 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,360 But it's, it's just not reflecting our work to funders. 198 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:16,440 And now that we're fundraising and the and, and the current 199 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,680 environment is what it is, we need to fix that. 200 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,280 So basically my boss, our CEO, asked me to look into 201 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,160 alternatives to Salesforce sometime in the last year or 202 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,040 two. I haven't talked to anyone yet, 203 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,880 though. There's so much that's going on 204 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,400 going on in this right now. And there's, you know, that one 205 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,520 of the things about this is there's some words in there that 206 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,040 we're like our brains are like triggered to, to naturally like 207 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,280 latch onto. For example, my boss, the CEO 208 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,840 has asked like that sequence. As it, as it turns out, we'll 209 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,440 get into that. That's not that's not really 210 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,240 where the where the gym is in this. 211 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,920 But Rob, why don't you, you know, or if folks want to pause 212 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,640 and like think about it or Rob, if you want to give a quick 213 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,640 reaction, how you would approach untangling this one? 214 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,360 Yeah. So this is this is interesting. 215 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,040 This is a shortened version of what is usually a much longer 216 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,240 and much kind of I tried to condense it a bit here. 217 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,640 But the interesting thing if you just think about this, this 218 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,360 paragraph and how we usually approach paragraphs and things 219 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:29,840 is like there is some sort of almost like sequential structure 220 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,360 you should expect, but you don't get in customer language like I 221 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,080 would expect, right? If they're, if they're trying to 222 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,240 say, hey, here's what I need, you would expect a person to 223 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,680 communicate that clearly we are looking into this kind of thing. 224 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,760 And here's the details of exactly what we are looking into 225 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,840 and why we are looking into it. And instead what you get is you 226 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:59,400 get this basically paragraph of text where it's not clear what's 227 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,560 relevant or isn't in it, and it's not clear what the 228 00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:05,280 sentences mean. Some of them are helpful, some 229 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,360 of them are counterproductive, which means you need a 230 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,480 translation guide for it. And, and I don't feel like 231 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,120 there's been really good translation guides put out there 232 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:18,640 for for what customers say, which is where we get started. 233 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,000 Yeah, what? Rob, can you help me understand 234 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,480 when you say translation guide? Yes. 235 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:25,920 What? What do you mean? 236 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,760 Like what is it like at at that? Explain it as if I were like a 237 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,400 dingo, you know, Said Michael Scott's words. 238 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:36,200 Explain it to me as if I were a 7 year old. 239 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,040 But like what? What do you mean by a 240 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,520 translation guide here? Yeah. 241 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,240 So, OK, there is a paragraph there. 242 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,880 It is in customer language, which means it looks like and 243 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,040 sounds like something that you understand but you don't 244 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,360 understand. You need to translate that into 245 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,160 your language. And to translate it, you need a 246 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,960 there's, there's this paragraph. Then there is some machine that 247 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,080 you put this paragraph through, and out the other side of that 248 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:14,720 machine comes something that makes you understand what this 249 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,600 person wants to buy, if anything, and what you should 250 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,960 pitch. Gotcha, perfect. 251 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,360 So we we've got what was it in the Enigma machine for World War 252 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,040 2? If that's what we're developing 253 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,960 right here. Amazing. 254 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,480 Well, you've and and basically using your frameworks this. 255 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,920 So we, we input the customer hairball, we run it through the 256 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,080 translation guide and we output the structure here that you have 257 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,080 is demand supply and irrelevant. Can you, you know, maybe 258 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,720 breakdown like what are you looking for in each of those? 259 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,000 Yeah. So it turns out big shock, the 260 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,840 pull framework and the concepts of demand and supply can be that 261 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,560 machine in the middle so that you can take customer language, 262 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,400 translate it into something that is actionable and that you 263 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,160 actually understand. And that what's in your head is 264 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,400 the same as what's in the potential customer's head, which 265 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:16,080 is cool. But like the way I get there is 266 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:22,040 I, I find it's very useful to separate the world into demand 267 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,800 and supply stuff. Supply stuff is stuff about 268 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,640 products and solutions and tools and methods and all that kind of 269 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,280 stuff like the, the means by which we do things. 270 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:39,720 So it would be things like for example, Salesforce is we've 271 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,120 been struggling with Salesforce, right, That's right. 272 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,960 Supply that I don't, that's not working for me. 273 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,840 That's on the supply side, on the demand side. 274 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:56,240 It's not about products at all. It's about what are they trying 275 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,720 to accomplish in their job, in their life, What are they trying 276 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:00,680 to do? What are they trying to 277 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,760 accomplish? And it must not have anything to 278 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,200 do with supply. Yeah. 279 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,840 What would what would they be trying to accomplish if no 280 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,320 supply basically existed? Or if you didn't exist? 281 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,760 If yeah, like what's what's going on agnostic to supply? 282 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,120 Yes, exactly. I'm gonna. 283 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,320 And so, so we have to, yeah, what you pull that up while 284 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:28,320 you're talking is like we have to separate this so that we can 285 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,400 know is there any demand here at all. 286 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,680 And then there's like also what I put in the irrelevant 287 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,440 category, which is stuff not related to demand or supply. 288 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,840 Yeah, so let me. Crazy how time flies. 289 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:43,800 You know, sales force is for sales people. 290 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:44,920 It's great for sales people, right? 291 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:46,800 So it's like, OK, cool. That's not yeah. 292 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,520 And it also, they also might talk about somebody else's 293 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,360 project. Like there's, there's a sort of, 294 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,160 you know, things that are are not or an irrelevant could be 295 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,680 like 5 year plan. Like they're, you know, there's 296 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,200 all these other red herrings that can be irrelevant. 297 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,480 They're actually and are easily mistaken sometimes for demand. 298 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,599 What you've got here. I've pulled it up for those on 299 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,720 Spotify or YouTube and maybe someday we'll migrate to Apple 300 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,000 video on Apple podcast. That's a new thing. 301 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:22,319 I've got to figure that out. But basically from the from the 302 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,400 sub stack, Rob's broken down demand, supply and irrelevant 303 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,240 and the supply column. Let's talk about that before we 304 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,600 get to demand. You've got struggling with 305 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,800 Salesforce for five plus years. Seems like it's not built for 306 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,240 us. Had a bunch of consultants. 307 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,360 That's another one they brought up. 308 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,000 My boss asked me to look into an alternative. 309 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,080 I'd like to get your thoughts on this one. 310 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,160 My boss asked me to look into an alternative to Salesforce 311 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,120 sometime in the last year or two, but I haven't talked to 312 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:52,680 anyone yet. Why is that last one, that one 313 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:58,280 to me, I would have put that one in demand as kind of like a weak 314 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,440 demand, but I don't, but I you've got it over here on 315 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,480 supply. So what's what's going on there? 316 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,760 Yeah, it's it's it you could put like boss pressure. 317 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,640 Yeah. Under demand, but that's not, 318 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,480 that's not a clear like thing I'm trying to accomplish 319 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,320 necessarily. I felt basically the boss told 320 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,760 me to look into an alternative to Salesforce. 321 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,320 Alternative to Salesforce is like the key thing for me there 322 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:28,720 that keeps it on the supply side. 323 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,240 It's about a product, it's about a tool. 324 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,600 And So what I'm what I'm doing here is I'm trying to basically 325 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,240 separate them talking about supply. 326 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:45,680 They do or don't like or do or don't want is like one huge 327 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,000 category of like things that they will say in customer 328 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,320 language. But just having them complain 329 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,160 about supply is like there's the classic Bob must quote, which is 330 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,520 bitchin ain't switchin. They can complain in the supply 331 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,160 category all the time and not have demand. 332 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:13,040 Yeah, yeah, that's that's a super interesting and I think 333 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,400 that one, having watched you interact with founders around 334 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,400 around this or a similar example that wasn't wasn't edited the 335 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:26,160 way this one was the my boss asked me to is always one of the 336 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,480 ones that basically like flags as OK, this person has a 337 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,680 responsibility. But the the second-half there is 338 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,840 sometime in the last year or two, but I haven't talked to 339 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,040 anyone yet. And you had an interesting 340 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,920 commentary about the way that you characterize that in this 341 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,520 post was like if they haven't talked to anybody in the last 342 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,040 year, they can continue basically I think it was on 343 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,760 this, they can continue not talking to anybody about this. 344 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,320 Like what it's not, you know, this is that there's a, there's 345 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,320 a flag for like almost potential demand, but then they negate 346 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,440 that because it's obviously not something that is urgent. 347 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,160 If it's lasted, you know the search has lasted somewhere 348 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,280 between a year or two. Right, right. 349 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,760 Yeah. And if they've struggled for 350 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,120 sale with Salesforce for five years, they can struggle with 351 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:16,200 Salesforce for 50 years. Yeah, like it's not, it's the 352 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,400 default. Say they could be in equilibrium 353 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,080 just disliking Salesforce and that's fine. 354 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,280 Like that's, that's just an equilibrium state. 355 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,600 There is no need to change. They can complain about it all 356 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,840 day long, but they're like default is they're not going to 357 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,320 change necessarily. And so the question is, and 358 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,440 before we move on from here, right, like if you just take all 359 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,760 the stuff in the supply category that we're talking about, we've 360 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,600 been struggling with Salesforce. Seems like it's not built for 361 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,320 us. Had a bunch of consultants come 362 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,520 in and try to make it better. My boss asked me to look into 363 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,440 alternatives to Salesforce, right? 364 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:56,360 If you just take that column and say, what do they want, you're 365 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,240 going to come up with something that sounds like, well, it's an 366 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,800 alternative to Salesforce for nonprofits. 367 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,240 Yeah, and. You're going to be wrong. 368 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:11,240 Yeah, and build, literally build a CRM like, you know, a huge 369 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:17,240 investment based on an incorrect diagnostic of what demand is. 370 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,440 Why don't we, why don't we jump into supply? 371 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,840 Just flip the screen here. Rob, do you want me to read this 372 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,920 one? Yeah. 373 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,640 I mean, we just, we basically just added demand right where 374 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,440 it's. And so it's like, OK, cool. 375 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:35,280 We've, we've now that we have this translation engine, we've 376 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,120 been able to put most of what this potential customer says 377 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,360 onto the supply side or onto the irrelevant side, right? 378 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:46,880 And, and, but we didn't fill out anything on the demand side. 379 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,720 And that's the important side because that says what's the 380 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,320 shape of the thing they're trying to do? 381 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,120 What's the, what's the thing, what's the project on their To 382 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:56,720 Do List? What's the priority? 383 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,280 What's the, what's the content of what they're trying to 384 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,640 accomplish? And well, it turns out there is 385 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:10,640 one sentence hidden in that monologue, like towards the end. 386 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,600 And it is. It was basically like we're 387 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,760 trying to raise money and our current reporting for donors or 388 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,920 funders is not cutting it. Yep. 389 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,240 And is that a, is that something common that you see, Rob, that 390 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,480 demand is hidden like that in the in the middle or even toward 391 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,560 the end like what you would, you would think real demand would 392 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,760 surface first, but that didn't happen in this case. 393 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,960 Like why, why does that happen? Is that common? 394 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:45,800 Like how? How should we think about that? 395 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,480 Yeah. So sometimes it is like, 396 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,720 sometimes it comes out the, the like first minute of the 397 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,880 conversation and they lead with it and they walk through exactly 398 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,200 why. Sometimes it shows up just 399 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,800 somewhere like somewhere random. And the challenge is like they 400 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,360 are under no obligation. They don't understand this 401 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:09,720 framework. They're trying to communicate 402 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,080 stuff to you and they're going to just use their own language, 403 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,480 their own way. And so we like each, each person 404 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,560 could be different in the way they structure their sentences, 405 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,480 in the way they structure their paragraphs. 406 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,880 And so they're not by default going to lead with here's the 407 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,800 thing I'm trying to accomplish in my life here. 408 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,760 Why my existing options like that sometimes happens. 409 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,080 And I saw a call like that yesterday where the founder 410 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,040 heard that filled out the whole framework in their mind. 411 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,360 And then just like they're like, I don't know what to do because 412 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:45,920 you just filled out the pull framework for me. 413 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,840 I did like this is like a 5 second pause while the founder 414 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,600 was just like racing through everything. 415 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,360 Like all right, I guess we're checked off all the boxes here. 416 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,120 But by default that won't happen. 417 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,040 And so This is why we need this kind of like translation engine 418 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,920 because throughout we basically have to do a search through the 419 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,960 conversation, through through all the words they're saying to 420 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,280 pick out, to pull out that one line, which might be at the very 421 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,960 beginning would be great. Not going to happen by default. 422 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,320 Or it could be at the very end or it could be, you know, 423 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,560 somewhere buried in the middle. And it's like, OK, cool, I need 424 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,480 to pick out the demand type things because that's what they 425 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,240 are literally trying to do right now. 426 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,560 Like what are they trying to do right now? 427 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:35,240 And then on the supply side, it's like, OK, why aren't their 428 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,480 existing options or methods or tools good enough? 429 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,920 OK, cool. I need to understand those two 430 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,000 things. And if I understand those two 431 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,400 things and kind of like the rest is kind of context or or totally 432 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,920 irrelevant, but I like I have to understand those two things in 433 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,960 order to fill out the poll framework and then be able to 434 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,640 sit like play that back to them and offer them something that 435 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,600 they will actually pull out of my hands. 436 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,960 Yeah, why don't we, I'm, I'm pulling up your your post here 437 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,800 just so that we can look at the the paragraph and I'll, I'll 438 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,400 highlight. Let's see. 439 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,920 So we've got supply here. The it's literally if you're if 440 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,560 you're watching the video, I'm highlighting where it where it 441 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,400 falls. It's it's a fragment of a 442 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,520 sentence. It's not even the, you know that 443 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,800 like the the full sentence there at like 4/5 of the way through 444 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,760 this one. Rob, what is it in this? 445 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,240 What did you hear? What what flagged to you like 446 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,360 demand is, is right there in that in that moment. 447 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,320 Yeah. So like what, what am I looking 448 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,720 for? I'm looking for what are you 449 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,160 trying to accomplish right now? What? 450 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:56,560 Oh, and and, and not related to supply, not related to 451 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,640 complaining about existing options, like I'm just putting 452 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,080 those in a different category. Like what's the thing that you 453 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,800 are trying to do? And so right, like you can 454 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,040 complain about supply, but I need to know why do you need to 455 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,480 change? What it, what's different? 456 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,360 What are you trying to do? What's going on that's causing 457 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:18,440 you to need to change? And what kind of change do do 458 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,920 you need to make? And so here it's like, OK, I, I 459 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,520 specifically wrote it this way too, to make it feel like a 460 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,080 throwaway con, like a throwaway comment, because it often comes 461 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,560 across as a throwaway comment where it's like it's, it's just 462 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,760 not reflecting our work. The blunders now that we're 463 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,320 fundraising and the current environment is what it is. 464 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:39,760 We need, we got to fix that. Yeah, right. 465 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,680 And So what you can see there is, oh, OK, wait. 466 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:49,880 Now they are fundraising right now and it's hard to fundraise. 467 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,440 It's not reflecting their work to funders. 468 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,600 They need to fix that now. Like there's a there's this 469 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,360 thing. It's like there's something 470 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:02,120 they're trying to do right now that has made their existing 471 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:05,360 options no longer just good enough. 472 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:09,400 We can cope enough with them. We need to fix that. 473 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,400 That's what's happening on the demand side, trying to fix our 474 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,400 reporting. Yeah, yeah. 475 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:21,120 And and and then the the customer sort of layers 476 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,680 camouflage onto it by saying, you know, look into our 477 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,440 alternatives to Salesforce in the last year or two, which is 478 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,680 actually a separate, it's an entirely separate thing like 479 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,680 fixing the reporting again agnostic of supply could be in 480 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,000 Salesforce, could be, it doesn't really matter where it comes 481 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,800 from, but fixing reporting for fundraising that is going on 482 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,760 right now is the immediate priority. 483 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,560 Supply is the sort of secondary consequence of that. 484 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,400 Yeah, Yeah, it's, it's. And so this is where it gets 485 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,280 confusing, which is they're saying on the supply side, we're 486 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:57,040 looking into an alternative to Salesforce, but on the demand 487 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,960 side, they're saying we're trying to fix our reporting so 488 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:09,680 fundraising gets easier. What you might say is, OK, we 489 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,000 are an alternative CRM to Salesforce because it sounds 490 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,680 like you want to look into an alternative CRM to Salesforce. 491 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,600 We are an alternative CRM to Salesforce with better 492 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,720 reporting, right? That is an option here. 493 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,000 But when they're saying an alternative to Salesforce, that 494 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,840 doesn't necessarily mean we want to RIP out Salesforce, which 495 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,000 sounds crazy. It sounds like they're saying we 496 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,880 want to RIP out Salesforce, but that's not they're just saying 497 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,040 like sales for we can trust more what they're saying on the 498 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,360 demand side, on the supply side, it's we can't trust it quite as 499 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:50,880 well. We can trust what they don't 500 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:56,120 like, but but the supply they want is way less clear. 501 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,760 So if they say right, like I don't like Salesforce because it 502 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,400 doesn't reflect, it doesn't it's reporting isn't good enough for 503 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,280 our funders, right, That is supply. 504 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,200 I don't like the thi the thing I don't like about supply, if 505 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,120 they're saying we are looking into an alternative to 506 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:22,120 Salesforce, an alternative CRM that is supply I want and they 507 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,800 don't get to they're like basically they, they don't 508 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,920 really get to shape the supply they want. 509 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,880 We shouldn't trust them there. We actually have to discount 510 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,160 that part because if you remember from forever ago, 511 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,080 customer comes in and requests a specific feature, a permissions 512 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,280 feature. They don't actually want the 513 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,600 permissions feature. They want something on the 514 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,880 demand side, which is I want to stop people like I, I want, I 515 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,280 want to stop people from archiving projects. 516 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,720 And also we should, we should ignore when they say here's the 517 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,400 supply I want, we should pay attention when they say on the 518 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,280 demand side, here's what I'm trying to accomplish right now. 519 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,560 And then on the supply side, here's why I can't do that with 520 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,120 my current options. Here's why my current options 521 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,600 are not good enough. Then they jump into like telling 522 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,080 you what product they want. That is, that is basically where 523 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,600 you customer language having this translation thing is you 524 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,040 just discount all of that. So let's I want to get into that 525 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,600 what to trust and what not to trust. 526 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,840 What I think is a very practical framework that you gave. 527 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,800 What happens as a result of this? 528 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,120 Maybe like you've painted one picture, which is the the 529 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,840 founder that's on the other side selling this could have said, I 530 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,640 need to design an alternative to Salesforce that's for a 531 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,520 nonprofit and has good reporting. 532 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,240 Play that out. How does you've seen that? 533 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,160 Not in this iteration, I don't think that's what they did, but 534 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,280 you've seen that direction where you follow the customer's 535 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,880 request on supply. How would that have played out? 536 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,240 And then what actually happened and how does like how does the 537 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,680 situation go? Yeah. 538 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,080 So remember, what they're trying to do is they're trying to fix 539 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,520 their reporting. So if you say we are an 540 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,680 alternative platform to Salesforce, an alternative CRM 541 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,200 to Salesforce that has better reporting design for nonprofits, 542 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,920 even if you nail that, but you get the supply slightly wrong, 543 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,440 what's going to happen is they're going to go back and be 544 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,320 like, oh gosh, that reporting would be useful. 545 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,400 You'll have good sales conversations. 546 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,240 But the idea of ripping out Salesforce is like this massive 547 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,520 new project you're putting on their To Do List that they're 548 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,080 generally just like not going to do. 549 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,560 It takes a ton of work and it's not real. 550 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,760 Even though they say they want an alternative to Salesforce, we 551 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,640 know what they really want is on the demand side. 552 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,800 They just want the easiest possible way to fix their 553 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,880 reporting so that their fundraising gets easier. 554 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,040 And So what winds up happening is you wind up having sales 555 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,960 conversations that go, well, they're like, wow, I ideally 556 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,760 it's that they go, well, I'll give you kind of like a, a 557 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,040 couple different gradients of this, but they go the, the most 558 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,080 frustrating one is you have a bunch of sales conversations 559 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,920 that go well, they seem like they get it. 560 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,040 And then the sales cycles drag on forever. 561 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,480 And worse, your pricing, because you're competitive with 562 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,200 Salesforce is tied to sales forces pricing. 563 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:34,240 And so you have very long sales cycles, pricing at sales forces 564 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,120 level and you have a massive mountain of features to build to 565 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,560 get to feature parity with Salesforce. 566 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,240 And then you have a bunch to maintain and all of that kind of 567 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,480 stuff. And that just doesn't like that 568 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,760 is a total grind. The worst version of this though 569 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,920 is that you totally, you miss the demand piece of it. 570 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,440 And so you will have sales calls it what you'll you'll just hear 571 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,280 the supply side. You'll just hear that Salesforce 572 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,240 isn't build for built for nonprofits. 573 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,320 And so then you're going to say, well, we're building Salesforce 574 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,680 for nonprofits. And you have sales calls where 575 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,960 people like seem to get it, but because their demand is I'm 576 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,720 trying to fix my reporting and you're showing them all the 577 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,200 different parts of your CRM. At the end, they're going to 578 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,200 say, cool, that's really, that seems really useful. 579 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,000 But I don't know why I would use it. 580 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,120 Like, I don't know why I would. It's, it's not clear to me. 581 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,520 It seems, yes, it seems like it is built for nonprofits. 582 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,720 But like, that's great in theory. 583 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,720 I'm trying to fix my reporting and they're never going to say 584 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,360 this out loud. It's just like minute 27 of the 585 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:51,600 sales call. You're just going to get a weird 586 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,640 question and it's going to be confusing. 587 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,000 Yeah, yeah, so true. It's like that the that, that's 588 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,520 probably another translation guide. 589 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,560 What, how, what, how to translate weird questions later 590 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,320 on. It's almost never about the 591 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:07,680 feature that they're asking about. 592 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,480 It's there's something else that's going on there. 593 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,280 Let's talk about what, OK, what's the consequence of 594 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,920 recognizing, correctly recognizing what is demand in 595 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,679 this case? Like what do you build? 596 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,880 What happens with the customer? How is that different from 597 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,960 redesigning Salesforce for nonprofits? 598 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:28,320 Yeah. So, OK. 599 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,520 So if you if you just focus on the demand side, it's I want a 600 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:39,040 better, I need better reporting for funders on the supply side. 601 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,719 It's I don't like like Salesforce hasn't worked despite 602 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,080 us getting a bunch of consultants and spending a lot 603 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,120 of money on consultants. So what you would sell then is 604 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,880 not something that replaces Salesforce. 605 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,960 You would just sell something that fixes their reporting for 606 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:59,880 funders that probably plugs into Salesforce. 607 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:07,200 And so your, you know, your like, feature area is way small. 608 00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:10,280 You're really just focused on, you're basically like a donor 609 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,240 reporting service or kind of like a tool or, or whatever. 610 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,400 And maybe it's custom, maybe it's whatever, but it's, you're 611 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,480 offering a reporting tool specifically for nonprofits for 612 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,400 fundraising. Surface area is smaller. 613 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:29,120 They no longer have this project to I have to RIP out Salesforce 614 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,320 to get the reports that I want out of this. 615 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,480 And then the pricing options here are like way different 616 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,480 because they're not comparing it versus Salesforce. 617 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,360 And so it's right like it's what did you spend on consultants? 618 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,680 Well, this is the same cost as a consultant per year, but it 619 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,080 works. But it actually works, right? 620 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,200 And so instead of it being $5000 or whatever a year for a 621 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,920 nonprofit, for a normal sized nonprofit, right, like it's 622 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,000 $40,000 per year and they buy faster. 623 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,760 Yeah, that's super interesting how the you're actually you're 624 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,280 promising less and able to charge more like in in many ways 625 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:17,280 like you've at the same time reduce your complexity and of 626 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,120 implementing of selling and increase the like the price 627 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,280 range that you have. Yeah, this is and this is the 628 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,600 physics of start-ups. Just like this is like the 629 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,720 perfect example of the physics of start-ups. 630 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,600 They are trying to accomplish something. 631 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:38,920 If we fit that well, they will buy faster and the pricing is 632 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,040 determined by the value of the thing they are trying to 633 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,760 accomplish versus the alternatives there, right? 634 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,520 Like this is just, again, another lesson in the physics of 635 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:54,880 start-ups, which is your product breadth is not relevant to the 636 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,200 pricing. You're that's a, that's kind of 637 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,280 a push mindset. The pull mindset is the pull 638 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,640 dictates what they want to buy, what they're willing to pay for 639 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,840 it, and the bounds that you need to fit so that they will RIP it 640 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,880 out of your hands. Yeah, fascinating. 641 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,520 You know what on it in my little company where we're I'm running 642 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,040 into this with this week, it's been like, oh, OK, I've been 643 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,600 actually framing it from or improperly defining it. 644 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,120 Like what at what the demand is much closer to is storytelling 645 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,160 that involves our products so that it is embedded. 646 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,760 What I've been thinking it was was your product in front of 647 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,880 customers and that's they're they're very they're separate 648 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,160 approaches with a similar media product. 649 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,000 It's just a slightly a different way of talking about it that I'm 650 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,720 I'm seeing like much faster, shorter time to light bulb goes 651 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,320 off and head to like, oh, that's something that you can do that 652 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,640 feels natural in your in the context of your media and. 653 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,160 So here's the here's the frustrating thing about this, 654 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,880 because this is this is the thing that bothers me and 655 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,760 bothers I think everyone, which is that the unlock is almost 656 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,320 always a messaging unlock. But if you approach it as a 657 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,200 messaging problem without this translation guide, without this 658 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,080 kind of foundational framework, without the the physics of 659 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,200 startups, you wind up just playing whack A mole with 660 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,960 different messaging options and they are all guaranteed to not 661 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:29,080 work. You know. 662 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,600 Because there are infinite words you could use, all of which will 663 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:39,520 make a logical sentence, but they have to connect to demand 664 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,800 in the customer's mind. And that you need that way of 665 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,080 thinking about it to have any chance of getting the right 666 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,120 words and concepts that will unlock that are so simple. 667 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,960 Make that light bulb go off in their brain. 668 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,200 Yeah, I love that. Let's hit Rob before we wrap the 669 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,960 what you write about what you can trust and what you can't 670 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:07,800 trust. And you've alluded to this on a 671 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,200 couple, but I do want to make it more explicit. 672 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,520 Yeah, here, I'm just gonna read this and then Rob would love 673 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,120 your would love your commentary on it. 674 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,960 Now that we have a translation guide for customer language, but 675 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,280 we need one. Or, excuse me, now we have a 676 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,800 translation guide for customer language, but we need one last 677 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,960 step as we interpret the things they say using this framework, 678 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,960 what should we trust on the demand side? 679 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,000 Trust they kind of know what they're trying to do or 680 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,600 accomplish, but often need help articulating it concretely. 681 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,560 They often use vague language, like our donor reporting isn't 682 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,440 landing on the supply side. Trust that they can complain 683 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,520 about existing tools and methods they don't really like. 684 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:56,400 But don't conflate disliking supply with having demand and 685 00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,040 then you go on, don't trust when they say supply they want 686 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,240 because that will lead you astray. 687 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,120 For example, looking into an alternative to Salesforce will 688 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,160 literally steer you into the iceberg. 689 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:12,080 Rob, what would you, what would you add maybe on the on the 690 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:18,360 demand side to like what what to trust when they say it? 691 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,960 Yeah. I mean, what I've generally seen 692 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,960 is that somewhere in the hairball is somewhere in the 693 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,160 monologue. They actually do convey demand. 694 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,680 It is actually just and they convey it roughly often. 695 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,480 If they say, like our donor reporting isn't landing, you 696 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,200 need to unpack, as Bob Melissa would also say, like you need to 697 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,000 unpack the word landing because I don't know what landing means, 698 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,520 but they'll often convey it and it's more of a finding it 699 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,160 problem for you. And you should trust it because 700 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,000 they kind of know what they're supposed to be doing in their 701 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,520 job. They kind of know what they have 702 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,360 like a rough sense of what they're trying to accomplish and 703 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,840 they often need help just kind of explaining it a little bit 704 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,160 more to us. So that is pretty good. 705 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,040 They also are pretty good on the supply side of knowing why their 706 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,920 existing tool isn't good enough for that thing they are trying 707 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,640 to accomplish, why their existing options aren't good 708 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,800 enough. And the yes sale, like 709 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:21,240 Salesforce, the reporting doesn't really work. 710 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:24,960 We've tried consultants to fix that and they haven't worked 711 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,640 either. And like, yeah, that's pretty 712 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,000 rough. But we can say like what does 713 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,480 work mean? They're like, what does it, what 714 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,800 do you mean it hasn't worked? But that's roughly right. 715 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,840 Like being kind of trust that that's them pushing against 716 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,840 their existing supply. We need to and we need to take 717 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,040 those two in combination though, because if we don't, then we get 718 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,800 a laundry list of complaints on the supply side without 719 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,920 understanding which of those are actually relevant that they are 720 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,000 that fit what they are trying to accomplish. 721 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,480 So those are the pieces there. And then the danger zone is when 722 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,920 they talk about supply they want, that is a note. 723 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,880 You can say what I don't like about my existing options. 724 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,720 That's the negative I don't like about my existing options XYZ. 725 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,440 That's OK. That's roughly OK. 726 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,520 You have to just connect that to the demand side. 727 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,000 When they say here's the supply I want, absolutely. 728 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,600 Like, no, that is don't trust that at all. 729 00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:29,120 Take that as actually probably likely to steer you in the wrong 730 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,600 direction. And that's just because like 731 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,960 they don't they this is where it comes where customers don't know 732 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,320 what they want. That's what they're, they don't 733 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,960 know about the specific instantiation of the supply that 734 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,440 they that fits their demand. That's your job as a founder is 735 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,960 to design supply that fits the pull that they have. 736 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,440 They're going to just, they're basically just going to kind of 737 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,640 they're throwing concepts because that's the best they 738 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,240 have. They're trying to articulate 739 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:06,040 this thing that's fairly complex for them to articulate and they 740 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,480 have no idea if you're picking it up or not. 741 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,640 So they're just throwing out things at you. 742 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,240 But that that piece in particular is the dangerous 743 00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:15,280 piece. Yeah, fascinating. 744 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,160 Rob, what should founders do with with this now? 745 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,760 Like what's the actionable next step? 746 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:23,880 Use it. Translate. 747 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,040 That's it, right? This is a translation guide. 748 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,040 This is your Rosetta Stone to what customers are saying. 749 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,000 Yeah. And it's the start of it. 750 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,760 It's not, it's not complete. It's not complete. 751 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,320 There's a bunch of other things that I need to include in the 752 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,040 translation guide and all that kind of stuff. 753 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,160 But maybe that's another book in the future. 754 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,440 Yeah, I I love it. I'm going to run the a recent 755 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,520 call through the translation guide and see what comes out on 756 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,040 the other end. So I suspect it's going to be 757 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,000 different. I think I may have been feel 758 00:43:55,040 --> 00:44:00,480 like nearing or being attracted by the song of the sirens, which 759 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,360 is this is the supply I want. And there's, there's probably, 760 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,160 it's really hard to resist that because it feels so simple and 761 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:08,680 clear and straightforward in some ways. 762 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,360 And sometimes, Rob, tell me if I'm wrong, sometimes they 763 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,960 actually might be right. Like the thing like there's, 764 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,280 there might be some customers that can actually articulate the 765 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,160 supply that you should build in order to satisfy that. 766 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:30,880 Yes, but unless you understand the demand and basically pull 767 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,880 framework, yeah, you won't know what success looks like to them. 768 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,280 So you won't actually know what to build. 769 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,480 You'll know like roughly what to build maybe, but you won't not 770 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,800 won't know why. You won't know what it needs to 771 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,960 accomplish for them. And so you just wind up in this 772 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,080 awful state with a product you're there on boarding to. 773 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,920 You don't know what success is. They may or may not know what 774 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,560 success is. And so that's a terrible 775 00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,920 situation to be in. Yeah, good point. 776 00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:04,440 I like the drawing it back to the system approach there of 777 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,400 thinking about a startup, the replicating case study and the 778 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,560 factory and the way that it's not just the cell, it's what you 779 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,440 deliver afterward and the clarity that comes from knowing 780 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,560 what demand is. Why don't we hit one mailbag 781 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,240 real quick? This one came from Dominic 782 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:22,920 Dominique. I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing 783 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,560 that, he said. Hey Rob, been listening to your 784 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,720 podcast, reading your blog. After going through the Harvard 785 00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:32,320 Innovation Labs, the path to PMF slide deck, a light bulb went 786 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,720 off. Suddenly I could grasp the the 787 00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:37,800 difference of the demand framing, which was incredibly 788 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,760 valuable. I of course also made the 789 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,200 mistake of building first, but with the demand framing and 790 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,000 emotional shift happened, instead of trying to sell my 791 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,520 product, I checked. I check if the prospect has 792 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:52,720 demand. The key difference for me is 793 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:56,080 that when trying to sell supply, prospects can only say no to 794 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,200 your product, which sucks. But by seeing if they have 795 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,080 demand, they're not rejecting you or your product, they're 796 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,560 simply telling you about their reality, which I find easier to 797 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:07,160 deal with. What what? 798 00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:09,440 What jumps out to you? It's not not really a question, 799 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,800 but would love your reaction to that. 800 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:16,080 Yeah, I think it's it's an awesome point and it's one that 801 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,880 I think when you understand the physics of startups this the 802 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,320 sense that if you are just pushing your supply, if you 803 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,840 think it's all about the product, then they're just 804 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,960 rejecting the product or rejecting you. 805 00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:35,400 Which means you're going to wait to sell, you're going to suck at 806 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,120 sales, and then you're going to have an existential crisis when 807 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,200 people don't know, when people don't buy and you're going to 808 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,280 misdiagnose why they're not buying. 809 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,600 And it's just this terrible, terrible loop. 810 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,520 We're all down because we're not doing that separation between 811 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:57,160 demand and supply. Yeah, I as a the delicate flower 812 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:02,160 that I am, this is definitely hit home on just how it like 813 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,880 emotionally painful selling and rejection can be. 814 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,840 But how it's it's almost like an out of body experience a little 815 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,080 bit because you're no longer, it's no longer about you. 816 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,120 It's about understanding them. And that is? 817 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,280 I have not felt bad in a sales conversation in a long time 818 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,160 because I actually like embrace. Like I just don't care. 819 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,120 It's they're telling me something why should I take it 820 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:24,880 personally? But it's not about me. 821 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,360 I love it. I'm gonna turn someday, you 822 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:29,400 know? My aspiration is to be an 823 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,600 emotional robot in some ways, but squat. 300 and you'll get 824 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,800 there. Just a body of muscle for there. 825 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,680 There's no more room for emotion than there. 826 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,480 Well, also, Rob, anything we want to add founders and another 827 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,320 way of doing the translation, if you know, if you're working on 828 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,280 that running into a wall, Rob helps founders with that 829 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,560 translation and he's got a bunch of practice at it. 830 00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,080 Rob, anything you would add on working together or anything 831 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,120 like that? No reach out, I got to run. 832 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,240 All right. I have a good one, Rob. 833 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:05,360 Later.