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Welcome to Just a Dog Podcast, 
the podcast for thoughtful dog 

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lovers and guardians. 
I am your host, Nadine. 

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My guest today is Doctor Mark 
Beckhoff, one of the most 

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influential voices in our 
understanding of animal 

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emotions. 
Doctor Beckhoff is Professor 

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Emeritus at the University of 
Colorado Boulder, which means he

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spent a long and distinguished 
career shaping his field and now

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holds an honorary title that 
reflects that legacy. 

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He is a close friend and 
collaborator of the late Doctor 

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Jane Goodall through the Jane 
Goodall Institute and their 

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shared commitment to ethical 
research and animal protection. 

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He has written many books, 
countless papers, and has a long

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running column for Psychology 
Today. 

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His work has helped millions of 
people see dogs as beings with 

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rich emotional lives full of 
choice, connection, and feeling.

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Doctor Beckhoff brings science 
and compassion together in a way

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that invites you to slow down 
and really see see the dog in 

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front of you. 
It was a privilege to speak with

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him. 
Here is my conversation with 

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Doctor Mark Burger. 
Enjoy. 

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Thank you so much for joining 
me. 

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How are you today? 
It's what, 3:00 PM over where 

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you are, and it looks like the 
weather's really lovely. 

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Yeah, it's a sunny. 
I'm in Boulder, Co It's very 

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sunny. 
We have some snow yesterday, but

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it's sunny here all the time. 
To start with, I thought because

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I've shared my story with you so
you understand the context of 

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why this podcast exists, but I 
have a strong belief that it's 

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really important to keep the 
memories alive of the people 

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that we've loved and lost. 
And so I was hoping you can 

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start us off with perhaps 
sharing a or an experience with 

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your late friend Jane Goodall. 
Yes, I mean I could go on for a 

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day or more memories. 
I mean, I just loved working 

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with her. 
She's wonderful woman, great 

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scientist, great friend, great 
colleague, very much interested 

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in all aspects of animal 
behaviour and dogs were her 

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favourite animal. 
And she had a great sense of 

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humour and used to meant that 
people didn't realise that she 

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had a great sense of humour. 
You know, she was not somewhat 

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of a rock star. 
She was an iconic woman. 

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Yeah, just just a really nice 
woman, really passionate about 

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the work that she was doing. 
And we and we have a young kids 

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book coming out in early 2027. 
Really, what is the book going 

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to be about? 
Did you you worked on it 

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together? 
Yeah. 

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Oh yeah, I know. 
I really can't say much more. 

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Yeah, we. 
Oh, OK. 

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Yeah, we finished approving the 
text back in the summer and it's

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it's in the illustration stage 
and the day, the day before she 

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passed away, I sent her some of 
the mock up illustrations, but 

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she never got to see them. 
But but yeah, it'll be out in 

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yeah, beginning of 2027 takes a 
long time to do these children's

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books to get the text right and 
the layout and and the and the 

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illustrations take forever. 
I mean, they just. 

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So I hear. 
But it's great. 

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I'm I'm thrilled to have that 
last, if you will, attachment. 

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That legacy, yeah. 
I'm sorry for your loss, first 

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and foremost. 
And Doctor Jane Goodall 

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obviously has left an incredible
impact and as you say, is quite 

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the icon, but she's left a 
lasting footprint on the world. 

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I was wondering what what is her
legacy for you? 

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Not for the world, but her 
footprint on your life 

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personally. 
I think roots and shoots, you 

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know, it started out as a young 
kids programme in 1992, but it 

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expanded immediately. 
Taught for 16 years in the 

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correction system, Boulder 
County Gaol. 

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There are groups in assisted 
living centres. 

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One, one day, some years ago, I 
worked with four year olds, 

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inmates and centenarians who are
over 100 years old. 

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So that I think that's really 
her legacy in terms of getting 

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the message out about and taking
care of animals, people and the 

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environment. 
Wonderful and Bruton shoots for 

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people who may not know what 
what that programme is about, 

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Could you give us a bit more 
detail about it and how it 

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started? 
Yeah, it started in 1992 in Dar 

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es Salaam in Tanzania with 
sixteen teenagers cleaning up 

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the beaches around Dara. 
And it's really just devoted to 

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generating respect and and 
treating animals, people and the

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environment with respect and 
dignity. 

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You can see groups focus on non 
humans, some groups focus on 

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humans and some focus on just, 
you know, environments, 

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different habitats. 
And when you work on one in, you

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know, in some situations you're 
working on all you really are. 

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And really when it started and 
then she was doing research in 

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Gambia where guys they've been 
there 65 years. 

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This year she formed a group 
called Takari that focused on 

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the the women there so that the 
women could actually secure bank

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loans. 
So she was very much also into 

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empowering women in terms of not
only science but just in life in

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general. 
Yeah, that's incredible. 

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I only recently learned that 
Doctor Jane Goodall, when she 

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was invited to study at 
Cambridge University, she was 

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one of the very few women who 
were there. 

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So it makes sense that she would
pay, pay it forward and pay it 

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back and support or elevate 
other women in in the sciences 

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or in general, really going back
to dogs. 

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I'm so, so curious how you 
started your career. 

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You were born in Brooklyn and 
then I think you went on to 

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study or work in Missouri, and 
then from Missouri you went to 

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Colorado. 
But I would love to kind of 

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understand where dogs fit in 
within that. 

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Did you grow up with dogs? 
No, my, my career really started

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when I was about two years old, 
living in Brooklyn. 

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I would talk to all the animals.
And there were a lot of animals,

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you know, dogs and cats and 
birds and mice and ants, a lot 

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of different insects. 
And I always would talk to them 

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and my parents allowed me to do 
so. 

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And I wrote a book called 
Minding Animals that came out in

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2002. 
And the phrase minding animals 

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came from talking with my folks 
that I minded the animals. 

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I attributed minds and feelings 
to them. 

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And I minded them because I was 
taking care of them. 

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And I, and they were, you know, 
I always was wondering what the 

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dogs or cats or insects or 
different birds with thinking 

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and feeling and biology really 
requires just a lot of patience 

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and detailed observation. 
I mean, today there's so many 

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studies that are just so quick. 
They think in a year or two, you

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know, everything there is about 
an animal. 

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And Jane's work going into the 
65th year or 66th year shows 

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that that's not true. 
So that's where I really develop

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just the, I should say, the 
ability, but the desire maybe, 

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and the ability to just watch 
animals in detail, just watch 

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them. 
Just no, no pen, no paper, no 

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nothing, you know, just watch 
them. 

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And one of Jane's major 
contributions among the many was

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that when she after she studied 
the chimpanzees at Gomby for a 

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few years, she she named them 
all and she assigned distinct 

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and unique personalities, which 
she didn't do in science back 

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then. 
So when she went back to 

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Cambridge, you know, there's a 
woman with no college degree 

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getting her PhD with Louis 
Leakey talking about Feigen and 

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Flo and Flint and David 
Greybeard, etcetera. 

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And they just said we, well, we 
don't name animals and we surely

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don't describe, you know, or 
assign different personalities 

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to them. 
And, you know, she didn't say it

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so directly, but really her work
shows that she did. 

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So that was really a powerful 
influence on me too. 

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I met first husband and Hugo at 
least once, but a few times when

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he came to the United States, he
used to stay with me when I was 

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at Washington University in 
Saint Louis. 

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And we talked about Jane because
everybody, at that time, 

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everybody knew there was a 
British woman studying 

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chimpanzees. 
And he was the National 

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Geographic photographer who 
really put her on the map in 

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terms of, you know, videos and 
pictures. 

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So she had an enormous influence
on me. 

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And my mentor, who's called 
Doctor Michael Fox, was in our 

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camp. 
So I too got some grief for 

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naming animals, the of sending 
dogs, coyotes, wolves and hybrid

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animals for saying we don't name
them, we can't talk about the 

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different personalities. 
And and Michael of course said 

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of course we could do. 
But legacy that way really went 

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way beyond me into a whole lot 
of other researchers in terms of

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naming animals, assigning 
personalities and just watching 

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them, you know, just just watch 
them. 

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You know, field of ethology was 
written off as being non 

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scientific because we weren't, 
you know, torturing animals in a

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lab or we weren't doing 
manipulations that had 

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absolutely nothing to do with 
their evolved lives, but we 

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survived. 
I was wondering in the field of 

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science how important is it self
exploration? 

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Because I have this belief that 
people can only meet us at the 

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depths that they have explored 
within themselves. 

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And so when it comes to 
answering and asking questions 

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within science, how important is
that I? 

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Don't know, you know, it's a 
good, it's a, it's an 

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interesting question. 
I've never really thought about 

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it from day one. 
I shouldn't say day one when I 

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was two or three years old in 
Brooklyn, but when I started 

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really watching animals as I got
older and just hung out in 

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wooded areas where I was growing
up on Long Island, I wondered 

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what they were feeling and 
thinking. 

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And then I sometimes would ask 
myself, what do you me, you 

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know, thinking and feeling? 
But I haven't thought of that. 

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I'm not sure how to answer that 
question, actually. 

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I mean, I didn't grow up with 
any animals. 

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My mom had been bitten by a dog 
when she was young, so she 

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didn't hate animals, but she was
really afraid of dogs. 

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But that didn't stop her or my 
dad from trying to say, you 

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know, animals are no good, you 
know, dogs. 

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And, you know, you know, what a 
lot of parents would do, they 

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just accepted, you know, what I 
wanted to do and, and we're very

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permissive about it. 
And my mom was really, you know,

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an empath, if you will. 
And my father was a real really 

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one of the most optimistic 
people I've ever met. 

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And so I feel like I, if I say, 
and I inherited it, it may be 

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somewhat genetic, but but I 
acquired those attitudes, you 

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know, and I would talk to them 
about I could feel, I could feel

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the emotions of the animals and 
the people, you know, I could 

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actually feel them. 
And and that's why as I going 

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down years later, when I started
studying animal emotions and 

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talking about personalities and 
named individuals and sentients,

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I could feel what the animals 
were feeling, that I can feel 

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what they were feeling when I 
was writing about them or 

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talking about them. 
And, you know, people would say,

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you don't really know that. 
And I my answer really was, 

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yeah, I do know it. 
You know, I mean, I'm not, I'm 

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not going down that route 
because you could spend the, the

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rest of your life arguing about 
some questions that couldn't be 

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answered or not watching the 
animals, you know, spending more

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time writing and thinking, 
thinking about the animals and 

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watching them. 
And that's just not what I 

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that's not what I get paid to 
do. 

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I see, do you have a dog at the 
moment? 

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Nope, No. 
I had dogs for a long time when 

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I lived in the mountains, but I 
moved down into Boulder. 

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I had a lot of dogs in my life. 
I always have. 

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And I, for writing a lot of 
books, I spent a lot of time and

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still go to dog parks around 
Boulder where I have, you know, 

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could be 100 dogs in the morning
running freely. 

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But I just didn't want to have a
dog who had to be walked and had

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to be leashed or, you know, have
a collar around them. 

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Because when I lived in the 
mountains just outside of 

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Boulder, they could run free. 
I had a large outdoor enclosure.

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So when I wasn't home, they 
couldn't run free. 

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But all the dogs on the road 
came down and my friends were 

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driving down from the mountains,
would drop their dogs off there.

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So on any given day, I could 
have from 2:00 to 8:00, dogs at 

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my house free, free to roam. 
So I learned a lot about their 

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behaviour. 
But just watching them from big 

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picture window in my office. 
And people say, do you miss 

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living with a dog? 
Well, yeah, I do. 

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But I couldn't give a dog the 
life they deserve in terms of 

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what I think they deserve living
in town. 

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00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,840
And Boulder's not a big city. 
I mean, there's dog parks and 

226
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,280
there's places to run free. 
But I did not want to have to 

227
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,160
walk them on the leash so they 
could pee and poop and control 

228
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,320
them. 
It's just, you know, didn't, it 

229
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,640
didn't work for me. 
So from that perspective, I 

230
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,040
don't miss having it. 
I see. 

231
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,760
And aside from the 
companionship, of course. 

232
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,480
Well, yeah, but I mean, I I 
could have interactions with a 

233
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,040
dog in 30 seconds, literally. 
That's true. 

234
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,840
Yeah, that's very true. 
So yeah, but yeah, I know it 

235
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,440
would be great, but I could not 
give them what they need when 

236
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,920
I'm working or where I was 
travelling a lot. 

237
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,880
And, and you know, in all 
honesty, I didn't feel it was, 

238
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,960
it was no sacrifice at all 
because like I said, I can in a 

239
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,840
heartbeat go right out and have 
interactions with happy dogs. 

240
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,080
From your observations, just at 
the dog park or just observing 

241
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,760
dogs in general? 
Do they, do you see them as 

242
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,480
obviously you see them as 
individuals, but do they benefit

243
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,880
from socialising with their own 
kind or within our kind of human

244
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,000
centred world, is it better that
they not? 

245
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,800
No, they should. 
No, I mean, it's mandatory. 

246
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,480
I mean, yeah, you could raise a 
dog with just people. 

247
00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:35,120
And I think most dogs who are 
raised with just people or who 

248
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,840
have very limited contact with 
other dogs are being really 

249
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,320
seriously deprived. 
I would really call that a case 

250
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,760
of social deprivation because 
they want to be with other dogs.

251
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,200
And I know people will say, 
well, they don't know other 

252
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,960
dogs, you know, would They've 
been with humans all their 

253
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,560
lives. 
Yeah, they know other dogs. 

254
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:56,520
They've got thousands of years 
of evolution to develop and 

255
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,320
express their dogness. 
So I really believe that they 

256
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,080
love it. 
And some people will say my dog 

257
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:03,640
doesn't get along with other 
dogs. 

258
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,080
I understand that that could 
happen. 

259
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,280
But a lot of times it happens 
because the dog during their 

260
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,080
early life, like humans, didn't 
develop the social skills to 

261
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,920
interact with other dogs. 
You know, and you and you, 

262
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,520
there's certain ones. 
I mean, you could learn them 

263
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,640
later on in life. 
And I've rescued dogs who had no

264
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,040
contact with humans or dogs. 
You know, they were just abused 

265
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,360
and living in a little box on 
the side of the road. 

266
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,280
But, you know, they could 
acquire those skills. 

267
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,600
But no, I mean to, I mean, I 
couldn't imagine living with a 

268
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,720
dog and not having the joy of 
watching that dog interact with 

269
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,320
other dogs and letting them be 
dogs, you know, not yanking them

270
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,640
on a collar and walking them and
saying, come on, I got to get 

271
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,240
home. 
I got to get go to work, I got 

272
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,680
to go to Starbucks. 
I mean, you know, so my, my 

273
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,480
experience really is studying 
free ranging dogs, dogs who are 

274
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,080
free running, you know, at dog 
parks. 

275
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,800
And people would say, I'd read 
in journals, dogs don't do a 

276
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,720
particular thing. 
And I, I thought 100 times in 

277
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,360
the morning at the dog park, you
know, and I know Adam and I have

278
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,760
talked about this a lot and he 
does wonderful work, but, you 

279
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,720
know, highly controlled studies 
and labs, It's not that the 

280
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,840
science isn't good, it's just 
you're studying highly 

281
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,720
controlled situations. 
And the reason that a lot of 

282
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,120
results differ from lab to lab 
isn't because of the competence 

283
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,280
of the researchers. 
It's because because you're 

284
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,120
studying different dogs in 
different social contexts with 

285
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,240
different reward paradigms, 
asking, maybe you could be 

286
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,360
asking the same question, but 
you're using different 

287
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,560
methodologies. 
But for people who make these 

288
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,120
claims that, you know, dogs 
don't develop this, don't 

289
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,640
develop empathy, they don't have
social contagion, they don't 

290
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,520
have social emotional 
intelligence, what should we do?

291
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,000
They'll say, and I said go to 
the dog park, you know, go where

292
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:57,720
they can run free and invite 
individuals to play, avoid them,

293
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,200
negotiate social relationships, 
solve conflicts. 

294
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,600
To me, you know, highly 
controlled lab studies have some

295
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:14,400
utility, but they shouldn't be 
used to define, say, dogness. 

296
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,760
And and you know, a lot of 
studies are done on homed dogs. 

297
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,520
And, you know, there's a 
spectrum. 

298
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,480
Some home dogs have great lives.
A lot of home dogs I know have 

299
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,280
pretty crappy lives, although 
the people think they're good 

300
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,040
lives, but the dogs just 
languish at home during the day 

301
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,600
or the people interfere when 
they're going to, you know, dogs

302
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,560
sniff butts. 
Dogs do things we don't like. 

303
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,960
You can't stop them from doing 
that. 

304
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,120
And one of the things I've 
learned, two things I've learned

305
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,840
over decades, is that when dogs 
are in a situation where they're

306
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,480
free to roam, they can enter or 
leave social encounters of their

307
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,280
own accord, you know, and they 
can make choices. 

308
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,640
And the other thing that they 
can do is like with kids, I 

309
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,680
mean, it's like raising a kid. 
They learn to resolve social 

310
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,000
conflicts. 
And I think they're happier 

311
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,119
because they feel what we call 
agency, the freedom to make 

312
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,000
choices that benefit them. 
So my dogs, you know, when they 

313
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,040
were in the mountains, they 
could do a lot of things. 

314
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,160
You know, every now and again 
there'd be a scuffle. 

315
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,720
They never, not once had a 
serious fight that I ever saw. 

316
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,720
But, you know, they have 
disagreements. 

317
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,000
You know, they get jealous if a 
dog has food. 

318
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,160
They feel guilt if they've done 
something and the other dog shun

319
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,760
them, you know. 
So I think the richest, it's 

320
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,960
like with any animal. 
And you know, getting back to 

321
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,440
Jane's studies too, with any 
animal, you really want to blend

322
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,120
of perhaps doing somewhat 
controlled experiments but not 

323
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:44,080
torturing them and messing with 
their brains or socially 

324
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,560
depriving them. 
But, you know, studying certain 

325
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,920
questions in captivity, but 
always, and I mean always 

326
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,080
supplementing them with 
observations and studies of dogs

327
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,120
who are free running. 
So they could be free ranging 

328
00:17:57,120 --> 00:17:58,680
like my dogs. 
They could go all over the 

329
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,880
mountainside. 
Free running could be at a dog 

330
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,920
park, but not using not using 
honed dogs as a model. 

331
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,440
And the other thing that comes 
out of it, which of course 

332
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,360
follows from Jane's work and my 
and Adams and other work, is 

333
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,640
there's no the dog when people 
say dogs do this or don't do 

334
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,880
this, when people say dogs are 
unconditional lovers or dogs are

335
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,240
our best friends. 
That's just junk. 

336
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,400
Dogs are not our best friends. 
They may be your best friend and

337
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,040
my best friend, certain dogs, 
but they're not our best friends

338
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,320
and they don't unconditionally 
love us. 

339
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,960
And the easiest litmus test for 
that is rescue a dog who had 

340
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,920
been abused. 
It could take months or years to

341
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,320
make them feel safe and to trust
you. 

342
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,520
So anyway, I'm just saying that,
you know, we know a lot about 

343
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,920
dogs, but I think that a lot of 
the stuff that's put out there 

344
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,880
based on homed captive dogs in 
a, in a sense, like I said, they

345
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,280
said the science isn't bad, but 
they they don't give you the 

346
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,840
full picture of dog. 
That's the bad thing. 

347
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,760
And I've done studies of wild 
Penguins in Antarctica and I've 

348
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,720
studied coyotes in the field for
eight years. 

349
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,680
I've watched wolves, foxes, 
other animals. 

350
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,000
And I can tell you that they do 
things that people are shocked 

351
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,920
about because they're allowed 
to, you know, they have the 

352
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,360
agency. 
They have the agency to be what 

353
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,520
they are. 
Yeah, it makes perfect sense 

354
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:20,760
really, because it feels in many
ways like, but a lot of the way 

355
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,920
that dogs live these days feel 
to me very unnatural. 

356
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,440
You know, I have AI, have a 
rescue dog. 

357
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,720
I'm a first time fosterer and 
she's been with me. 

358
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,920
It's a Spanish galgo or galga. 
She's been with me for about 

359
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,600
four months now and it's taken a
long, long time for her to kind 

360
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,920
of decompress and she's now in a
kind of more relaxed state. 

361
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,080
I can tell that her nervous 
system has relaxed a lot more, 

362
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,360
but I can't help but wonder how 
bored she must be compared to 

363
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,080
the life that she had before. 
Although it was maybe suboptimal

364
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,080
from a care and a love 
perspective, she was still very 

365
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,000
much within, you know, a group 
of her own kind with a, with a 

366
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,800
purpose, you know, hunting. 
Mm hmm. 

367
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:07,480
All of that is questionable. 
But she was still able to 

368
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,680
practise and release that innate
Dr and gain satisfaction through

369
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,600
those those activities. 
And I've really struggled with 

370
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,080
how to kind of fulfil those 
needs for her in a similar way 

371
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:19,920
without actually harming another
animal. 

372
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,160
Right. 
No, that's a great question, 

373
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,560
especially for a dog like her. 
Because the last dog who I 

374
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,200
rescued, Jethro, had been on his
own. 

375
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,680
We know for at least a month or 
two in Easter Boulder before it 

376
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,000
was developed, basically 
countryside, you know, I don't 

377
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,880
know how to answer that, but 
your sensitivity to it is what's

378
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,960
really important. 
So it could be developing 

379
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,200
situations where what is it a 
male or female? 

380
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,280
A female, 8 years old. 
OK, you guys wish she could. 

381
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,600
Wish she could exhibit those 
desires. 

382
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,600
Every now and again. 
There's going to be a scuffle. 

383
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,240
I mean, Jethro made it on his 
own eating and, and, you know, 

384
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,760
he was a marshmallow. 
He loved all animals. 

385
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,680
And I think a lot of it had to 
be had to do when he was young. 

386
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,320
He met raccoons and he met cats,
you know, just roaming freely 

387
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,560
east of Boulder. 
But, you know, you could 

388
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,560
probably create situations where
if you didn't think she was 

389
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,800
going to launch on them and RIP 
their throat out. 

390
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,640
And I really don't mean that 
lightly. 

391
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:18,440
No, she would. 
She would. 

392
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,200
She might. 
So I think it would take some 

393
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,600
real teaching to control that. 
Or, you know, some people might 

394
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,920
get upset with it, but you know,
if you could walk her on a lead 

395
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,240
with them, just a user friendly 
muzzle so she can sniff. 

396
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,200
So because and so the reason I 
say on a lead is because dogs 

397
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,680
with muzzles know that they 
cannot respond if something some

398
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,000
other animal could be say a dog 
at a dog park, you know, would 

399
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,640
attack them. 
But I think it's your 

400
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,000
sensitivity to that that would 
drive you to just try to figure 

401
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,000
out how could you? 
The question is, how could you 

402
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,360
give her the best life given how
where she came from and how you 

403
00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:57,000
live? 
And I think that's a fair 

404
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,240
question. 
You know, I'm, I don't know you,

405
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,160
but just listening to you, I'm 
sure you're trying to give her 

406
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,280
the best life possible and 
you're sensitive to her needs 

407
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,120
and her wants. 
So it's up to you to figure it 

408
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:09,440
out. 
She'll tell you. 

409
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,080
I mean, she'll tell you what she
likes and doesn't like. 

410
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,560
Oh yes, she does. 
Yes, she does. 

411
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,640
And she made me very happy, like
one of my dogs. 

412
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,520
I don't know. 
I didn't, I never knew her 

413
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,720
background. 
She's very picky in terms of who

414
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,560
she would allow into her life. 
And it was far fewer dogs than 

415
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,280
others with whom she could have 
had developed, developed a 

416
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,200
relationship. 
So she just chose. 

417
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,840
So when I lived in the 
mountains, you know, a dog would

418
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,200
come down. 
I I mean, don't instantaneously 

419
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,840
how she felt. 
She wasn't going to attack the 

420
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,880
dog. 
I mean, there was no doubt, but 

421
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,960
she wouldn't approach the dog. 
She wouldn't sniff it. 

422
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,000
She'd avoid them, you know, 
they'd come close and, and 

423
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,960
things like that. 
So I would have to tell her 

424
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,680
neighbour, no, you know, you 
can't have your dog come down 

425
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,760
here when she, my dog is 
outside. 

426
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,000
It worked out great, but a lot 
of people wouldn't be sensitive 

427
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,440
to it and they'd say, oh, come 
on, it's OK. 

428
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,920
And the dog, the bubble above 
the dog's head is saying, no, 

429
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,360
no, no, it's not OK. 
You know, listen, that's another

430
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:10,960
area of consent. 
I don't agree with you. 

431
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:16,080
I don't consent with your choice
to force me to interact with 

432
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:17,480
another dog. 
I don't want to. 

433
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,680
Yeah. 
And I and I've met dogs who are 

434
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,200
highly social, who are really 
picky. 

435
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,600
Humans would say, But she feels 
she's deprived. 

436
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,200
And I'm saying let her tell you 
how she feels, you know? 

437
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,920
So no, I think your question. 
It's hard with an older dog 

438
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,120
who's had a history of, you 
know, just living. 

439
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,760
I don't want to say a bad 
history, just a lifestyle. 

440
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,680
When I moved down from living 
decades in the mountains, 

441
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,640
getting used to living in 
Boulder, it wasn't aversive. 

442
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,960
But there were things I could 
not do living in Boulder that I 

443
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,480
did in the mountains. 
So you adapt. 

444
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:56,920
Yes, you adapt. 
I think for the dog, for Doona 

445
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,960
especially, I think she first 
had to learn that she was safe 

446
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:03,920
because going from one country 
to another, she had no idea what

447
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,600
was going on, you know, And I 
think we have a really strong 

448
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,600
bond now. 
Even when I have a dog sitter 

449
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,040
come over she'll she'll be on my
bed for the entire day pretty 

450
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,920
much until I get back home. 
That's how I feel my dogs were 

451
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,120
but but the word, the 2 words I 
always stressed as others is 

452
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:23,240
safety and trust. 
She has to feel safe and she has

453
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,720
to trust. 
Part of that trust is that you 

454
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,520
have her best interests in mind.
But dogs know that I'm, you 

455
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,360
know, people will say, Nah, they
don't have that emotional 

456
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:35,400
intelligence. 
I always say, you know, if you 

457
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,320
don't think that dogs have 
emotional intelligence, I'm glad

458
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,120
I'm not your dog because so many
people still look at dogs as 

459
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:44,960
machines. 
They'll say they don't. 

460
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,480
But if you look at the way in 
which they interact with them 

461
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,000
and care for them and leave them
or or place them in situations 

462
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,640
that the dog is telling you they
clearly don't want, then they do

463
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,320
not accept the fact that dogs 
are highly socially intelligent 

464
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,760
and emotionally intelligent. 
Yeah, there are. 

465
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,200
I think there are a lot of And I
completely agree with you. 

466
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,960
I'm not a scientist myself, but 
that's my experience. 

467
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,840
I feel like it's almost like a 
switch flipped for me at one 

468
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,000
stage in my life where I feel 
like I always love dogs. 

469
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,680
But when I saw my dad's 
companion grieve him after he 

470
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:27,000
passed away, I realised the true
depth of, of that feeling and 

471
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,920
that that companionship or that 
friendship that they had because

472
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,840
they were just kind of buddies 
exploring the world together 

473
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,560
near the rivers, mountains, that
kind of thing. 

474
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,360
So I felt her loss, I felt her 
pain. 

475
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:40,000
I knew that was real. 
Yep. 

476
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,440
That and that's critical like I 
was saying, you know, I mean it 

477
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,320
never dawned on me that dogs 
didn't weren't bright and 

478
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,000
sentient emotional beings and 
conscious. 

479
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000
Some people, thank goodness, 
just fewer, but every now and 

480
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,200
again, we really don't know if 
dogs and other humans are 

481
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,480
sentient or conscious. 
What do you think? 

482
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,240
And I think I think that's the 
dumbest thing I've ever heard in

483
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,960
my life. 
I do, sorry. 

484
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,280
It's fine that some people write
books about that, but I'm not 

485
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,520
going to read them. 
You know, go to a dog park, 

486
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,160
watch your dog. 
You know, even if you don't have

487
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,560
the luxury of a dog park and you
let your home dog go out and 

488
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,360
meet other dogs, if that if you 
return with that conclusion, 

489
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,080
then I would either hope you 
gave the dog up, which would be 

490
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,120
bad for the dog, or you read 
some material on, say, the 

491
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,400
emotional lives dogs. 
I mean, yeah, yeah. 

492
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,440
So. 
What do you wish more people 

493
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,760
knew about the emotional lives 
of dogs? 

494
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,520
I think the way that they 
communicate their emotions, for 

495
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,000
example. 
I know that's quite a broad 

496
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,440
question, but in every kind of 
day-to-day, how can humans 

497
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,080
expand their vision or ability 
to truly see the individual in 

498
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,080
front of them? 
Yeah, it's a great question. 

499
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,240
Just watch them, you know, 
learn. 

500
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,880
I always say that in order to 
give the dog the very best if 

501
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,480
they can have, which will also 
improve your well-being is 

502
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,440
become fluent in dog become dog 
literate. 

503
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:07,040
So to me it would be knowing the
ABC's, biology or psychology, 

504
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:12,600
one O 1 of dog, dog language. 
It's not that hard to acquire 

505
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,520
the general thing because I've 
had people say to me, and I 

506
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,120
don't mean that they're dumb, 
it's just they didn't know. 

507
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,360
Well my dog's tail was wagging 
and then they attacked it, but 

508
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,360
you know, attacked another dog 
or was aggressive, but it's a 

509
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,840
wagging tail. 
How was the tail wagging? 

510
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,240
Where are their ears? 
Could you see their eyes? 

511
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,240
What was their gait? 
What was their posture? 

512
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,480
Were they vocalising? 
They're surely giving out odours

513
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,760
that we don't sense and it 
really goes a long way. 

514
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,280
I felt when I was spending 
countless hours at dog parks 

515
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,000
that I really got, and I know I 
did, I got to educate people 

516
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,280
about not only their dog in 
particular talking about the 

517
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,440
personalities of, you know, 
members, littermates differ, you

518
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,800
know, right after birthday 
differs, but also just saying 

519
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,640
watch your dog, learn your dog 
and then go read something like 

520
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,240
that. 
It's like learning a new 

521
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,200
language basically. 
There's no doubt in my mind that

522
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,000
the more dog literate a person 
is, the happier they will be 

523
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,440
because their dog is happy. 
Yes, going back to your career 

524
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,640
ever so slightly, I was 
wondering if you had any 

525
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,600
individual dogs that helped to 
shape your career? 

526
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,560
Yeah, they all did in different 
ways. 

527
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,600
Yeah, they really, they really 
did. 

528
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,280
Because early what, when I was 
doing my PhD, it was kind of a 

529
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,200
rescue, although people would 
not have considered it. 

530
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,240
I was studying the development 
of behaviour, behaviour in 

531
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,400
wolves and wolf, dog hybrids and
Husky, you know, and dogs. 

532
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,640
We would find dogs who we could 
watch, you know, who were free 

533
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,720
to run around. 
And this is years ago, you know,

534
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,120
and it wasn't that common. 
The first dog with whom I really

535
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,720
lived and spent, you know, 24/7 
was a young malamute called the 

536
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,040
Moses. 
So it was the first time that 

537
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,720
I'd been around the dog 24/7. 
You know, I mean, it just was, 

538
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,080
although I spent a lot of time 
watching dogs. 

539
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,120
So Moses was my professor. 
I had to be a really quick 

540
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,080
learner and we got him when he 
was really young. 

541
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,280
So that was wonderful to watch 
his personality emerge and what 

542
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,800
he liked, what what he didn't 
trust, what he where, when he 

543
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,200
didn't feel safe. 
And others, you know, just 

544
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,400
watching them negotiate social 
relationships that were 

545
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:28,120
difficult, working hard, being 
the outlier on watching a group 

546
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,360
of dogs play at play, playing 
and trying to enter it like, you

547
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,920
know, sometimes we've done if 
you want to join a group of 

548
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,000
humans. 
So I learned a lot there. 

549
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,840
But I think really what I got 
out of the dogs with whom I 

550
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,600
lived for years was watching 
them in a sense, watching them 

551
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,200
when they didn't know I was 
watching them. 

552
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,360
Not because they were changing 
their behaviour, but being able 

553
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,080
to literally sit at my desk in 
the mountains, look out a big 

554
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,240
window and watch my dogs just 
freely walking around the 

555
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,720
acreage I had. 
And then when their friends came

556
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,040
down, they would greet them. 
Sometimes they wouldn't. 

557
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,000
It didn't mean they didn't like 
them and, and, and things like 

558
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,880
that. 
And then watching wild coyotes 

559
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,120
because I did an 8 1/2 year 
study of wild coyotes, you know,

560
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,720
literally really wild. 
They mean they go anywhere where

561
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,720
they want and just watching how 
they negotiated their life. 

562
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,120
They're not always active. 
They sleep a lot. 

563
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,960
You know, they, they spend a lot
of time alone. 

564
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,280
They spend a lot of time with 
their buddies, but then 

565
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,280
realising that and wolves as 
well. 

566
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,880
So if their wild relatives live 
in a certain way, it could be 

567
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,560
very natural for a dog to live 
in that way. 

568
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,760
Just allowing them, giving them 
the agency to make choices and 

569
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,160
if I wanted them to do something
then get getting them to consent

570
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,680
as much as they could. 
And there were situations in the

571
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,400
mountains where there could be a
cougar or a bear around, so they

572
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,600
probably knew the cougar or the 
bear around was before I was. 

573
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,080
But they didn't take any pains 
to avoid them for whatever 

574
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,640
reason. 
Probably because they knew they 

575
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,520
were safe and I'm the dumb 
tainted, if you will, saying 

576
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,520
look, you know, you're A2 legged
tainted. 

577
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,080
We know we're OK. 
But in a serious sense, it was 

578
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,280
always, they just felt free and 
they knew that I and other 

579
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,520
people had their best interests 
in mind. 

580
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,520
So once again, it gets back to 
the 2 words of safety and trust.

581
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:18,640
Trust. 
Yeah. 

582
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,520
And it doesn't like you're 
seeing. 

583
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,600
It doesn't necessarily come 
overnight. 

584
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,280
No, no, of course. 
And it makes perfect sense 

585
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,320
because from a human lens as 
well, with other humans, you 

586
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,280
don't. 
You don't just trust a stranger 

587
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,840
straight away. 
I'm not saying that dogs are 

588
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,120
like humans, but you know, it's 
easy to sometimes take for 

589
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,760
granted how much we expect from 
dogs to adapt at a speed that's 

590
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,120
even unnatural for ourselves. 
Yep, that absolutely. 

591
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,200
They're reading other dogs and, 
and people and other animals. 

592
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,200
Like we may be reading other 
dogs where you really feel close

593
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,800
to somebody really rapidly or 
you don't and you aren't, you're

594
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,360
not sitting down and, you know, 
analysing your brain. 

595
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,480
But there might be a reason. 
And, you know, overtime, I mean,

596
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,600
over time it either works or it 
doesn't in terms of, you know, 

597
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,480
whatever degree of friendship 
and relationship you want. 

598
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,120
But we're always, we're doing 
that constantly. 

599
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,640
Dogs are doing it constantly, 
but they hear things and smell 

600
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,680
things. 
We don't in other humans. 

601
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,000
I mean, people say we do, but we
don't know that. 

602
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,600
And that might be possible. 
So I might meet you in person 

603
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,640
and make an assessment, but it 
could be the wrong assessment 

604
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,680
because I'm not combining the 
stimuli properly. 

605
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,200
Yeah. 
In or meaningfully in a species 

606
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,760
typical way, right? 
But we're doing it all the time 

607
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,720
of watching and probably getting
some odours we're not even aware

608
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,040
of or little sounds or dogs are 
doing that all the time, there's

609
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,280
no doubt about it. 
Yeah, 100%. 

610
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,440
I find it so fascinating. 
And I don't know if this is an 

611
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,280
area of study of yours, but when
I walk, do not 2-3 times a day, 

612
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,040
very rarely. 
But when she does, she'll sniff 

613
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,520
every metre and obviously 
there's like a patch of wee and 

614
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,880
she'll sniff that and then 
she'll wee over it. 

615
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,400
And I always think it's like 
this kind of way of 

616
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,640
communicating and I wonder what 
they're telling each other other

617
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,720
than the basics of you. 
I'm a female, I'm old, I'm 

618
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,720
young. 
What other kind of what's the 

619
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,640
subtext there? 
Well, they they produce 

620
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,600
glandular secretions that could 
tell mood. 

621
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,000
Mood. 
As. 

622
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:30,440
Well, mood, reproductive status,
they you know, whether they're 

623
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,520
stressed, you know, could be 
there are stress pheromones in 

624
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,200
urine or there might be urine on
their coat. 

625
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:41,680
Dogs have an anal gland like or 
wild canids that can can explode

626
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,720
sometimes and it is could be due
to stress. 

627
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,720
So it's, it's a it's a good 
question. 

628
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,840
And when I asked myself that 
even in my studies, it's like, 

629
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,720
what could they possibly be 
communicating? 

630
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,560
When you see something happen 
that doesn't have any overt 

631
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,240
cause two wild coyotes come 
together. 

632
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,760
They play 2 coyotes come 
together, they sniff and they 

633
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,239
run away, tail up, hair up on 
their back. 

634
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,080
If there was something I would 
say aversive there. 

635
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,840
I don't know how they sense it. 
It wasn't like, you know, they, 

636
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,800
they are, you know, it might be 
you want to play with me. 

637
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,760
They do a play bow. 
That's how they would vote. 

638
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,199
You know, that would be it. 
Or Oh my goodness gracious, 

639
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:24,760
you're really stressed or you're
sending off a pheromone that 

640
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,440
basically that basically tells 
me to stay away. 

641
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,080
Or they look in their eyes and 
they see certain things. 

642
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,159
I mean, they are commuting with 
communicating with very subtle 

643
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,120
signals. 
And when they combine different 

644
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,239
senses, like, you know, could be
odour or faction audition and 

645
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,760
visual stimuli, we call those 
composite signals, they combine 

646
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,960
into a cocktail. 
So you and I may not, we're not,

647
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,760
we're not going to be Privy to 
the full cocktail because even 

648
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,320
if we could smell certain things
they put forth, you wouldn't 

649
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,840
want to smell them. 
But that's why dogs and wild 

650
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,280
animals, when they're running 
all over, they could spend up to

651
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,560
a third of their time just 
sniffing. 

652
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,200
Yeah. 
Or just standing like this and 

653
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,280
cocking their head or moving 
their ears. 

654
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,760
So they're trying to, they hear 
something and they're trying to 

655
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,800
locate it or fine tune it or 
they're sniffing. 

656
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:15,880
And you know, I hear it down in 
town. 

657
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,280
I've never heard it in the 
mountains. 

658
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,480
People saying let's go, there's 
nothing there. 

659
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,280
And the dog is going, there's 
nothing here. 

660
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,840
I mean, my God, it's a Symphony 
of odours. 

661
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,040
We Jessica Pearson, our book 
Unleashing your dog called the 

662
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:31,000
female. 
No, that means seriously now, 

663
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,920
how would you like if you're 
listening to a lovely song you 

664
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,040
like and someone Yanks you from 
it? 

665
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,520
Oh my gosh, this is. 
Not something that you really 

666
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,360
like and you want to get more of
it, or you smell something that 

667
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,160
you don't like and you want to 
get away from it and you can't. 

668
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,280
So once again, you know, dogs 
have really very different 

669
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,200
sensory systems than we do and 
we should give them the freedom 

670
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,800
who exercise their senses. 
That's why we wrote unleashing 

671
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,200
your dog was it's important for 
them to give physical activity. 

672
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,240
Of course, it's really, it's 
essential, not important. 

673
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:07,680
It's essential that they can 
exercise their senses. 

674
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,280
Absolutely, I agree with you. 
I always observe the way that 

675
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,640
other other people interact with
their dogs and very often I will

676
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,320
see people are rushing, always 
rushing the. 

677
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,520
Always rushing. 
Pulling pulling the dogs away on

678
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,600
their collar. 
So first I think about the 

679
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,200
collar. 
I think about the dog's neck. 

680
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,120
I think about the that the dog 
doesn't have a moment to sniff 

681
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,120
and communicate with their other
pee pee pals. 

682
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,240
You know, there's just so many 
teeny tiny little things in the 

683
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:38,000
everyday routine that could 
enhance the lives of our dogs 

684
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,840
that they just don't get. 
It's such basic things. 

685
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,160
Yeah, right. 
That inform, yeah, the impact is

686
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,480
that informs how they view you 
or another person. 

687
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,440
And it's maybe because I know 
that when you approach a dog, 

688
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,040
you don't know, you don't go up 
to them and go good dog and pat 

689
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,360
their head. 
But on more than more than a 

690
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,080
number, many occasions when I've
met a dog, I don't know. 

691
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,160
And especially if I walk into a 
house where a friend of mine had

692
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,400
basically adopted a farm dog 
from southern Colorado who was 

693
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,080
very when running free was a 
beautiful dog and look, you 

694
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,240
know, would be love people, but 
became very territorial 

695
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:16,160
immediately, mainly because he 
was probably very insecure. 

696
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,120
So I walked in and my friend 
said he may snarl at you. 

697
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,520
I don't think he'll attack you, 
but but you'll know. 

698
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,520
And I do like, I think I'm 
pretty good at knowing that, but

699
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,720
don't approach him and he may 
not approach you today at this 

700
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,640
people I see a lot. 
So I just sat down on the floor 

701
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,160
and within 10 seconds, Cody was 
in my lap. 

702
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,920
And they were incredulous. 
And they thought they called me 

703
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,840
the dog Whisperer, which is the 
worst thing I want to be called 

704
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,720
because of people like Cesar 
Milan. 

705
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,360
But I don't know why he liked 
me. 

706
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,920
I said you saw him maybe. 
What's that? 

707
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,920
No. 
Perhaps because you saw him as, 

708
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,720
I mean, really see. 
Him, I really saw him and I just

709
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:57,840
sat down with, I sat down on the
floor on a pillow with my hands 

710
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,960
on my lap. 
I didn't reach out to say, I 

711
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:02,280
didn't say come here, I'm 
friendly. 

712
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,560
I just sat there and I'm sure he
was picking up visual or factory

713
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,600
and auditory cues from me. 
I wasn't afraid. 

714
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,320
And really immediately he was in
my lap and they, they were 

715
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,200
incredulous. 
And I said, yeah, well, I don't 

716
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,280
really have that effect on 
people all the time, but I felt,

717
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,200
I felt gifted. 
It was a gift. 

718
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,480
And from that day on when I 
would come over there, Cody 

719
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,640
would whatever, whatever he was 
doing, he flew into me and would

720
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,760
stand, put his paws on my 
shoulder, lick me all over. 

721
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,400
And we were best friends. 
That that's all I can say. 

722
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,960
We were really good friends. 
But I didn't take it for 

723
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,520
granted. 
I mean, I knew that every time I

724
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,880
saw him. 
What's like seeing a person, you

725
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,320
know, you know, and giving them 
a hug or saying, hey, it's great

726
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,640
to see you. 
He felt safe and trusted me. 

727
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,480
That's the that's what it really
boiled down to. 

728
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:57,400
That's amazing how I'm conscious
that we're running out of time. 

729
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,680
I've got one or two more 
questions if that's OK. 

730
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,520
You have a question from Adam. 
Yes, I do have a question from 

731
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:04,960
Adam. 
I was thinking this might be 

732
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,680
quite appropriate now actually. 
So Professor Adam McCloskey was 

733
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,480
asking, are dog and human 
emotions comparable? 

734
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,240
And if so, in what ways Are they
similar or different? 

735
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,000
It's a great question. 
And I know Adam because I've 

736
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,720
been to Hungry and I I 
communicate with him. 

737
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,080
Yeah, they're definitely 
comparable. 

738
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,760
But what I always say is in a 
general way, there's dog, dog 

739
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,800
joy, chimpanzee joy, elephant 
joy, dog grief, dog sadness, 

740
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,120
joy, anxiety, jealousy, guilt, 
whatever you want to do it and 

741
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,720
that of another species. 
But then there are differences 

742
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:42,200
within species. 
My joy and your joy may be very 

743
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,120
different, but it doesn't mean 
that I experienced it and you 

744
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,200
don't, or vice versa. 
When my mother passed away, my 

745
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,280
two sisters and I really grieved
very differently. 

746
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,720
But we were grieving and, and 
you know, so it's a great 

747
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:57,120
question. 
I think what it is is that and 

748
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,360
when you look at social context 
and you think a Dean is feeling 

749
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,960
this way or Mark is feeling this
way or Adam is feeling this way,

750
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,800
you probably are in the ballpark
of how they're feeling. 

751
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,600
But being more precise than 
that, you would really have to 

752
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,320
know, say, the individual human 
or the individual dog. 

753
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,920
They're comparable to though, 
and especially among mammals in 

754
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,160
terms of the neurotransmitters, 
oxytocin neurotransmitters and 

755
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,600
what brain what, what areas of 
the brain are firing. 

756
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,560
So it is a good question because
once again, I may express joy 

757
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,640
differently from you, but we 
both feel it. 

758
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,880
Dogs do the same thing. 
And all the dogs I lived with, 

759
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,160
there were a few who you, if you
didn't know them, you would 

760
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,120
think they were upset or if you 
didn't know them, you you would 

761
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,000
think that they were scared. 
No, it's just who they are. 

762
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,720
And they just expressed 
different emotions differently. 

763
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,800
Yeah. 
So it's a good, it's a good 

764
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,560
question. 
And I think Adam's question 

765
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,360
might originate like mine did 
years ago, that people would go,

766
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,040
well, dog joy isn't like human 
joy, so therefore dogs don't 

767
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,120
have it. 
They wouldn't ever consider the 

768
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,440
opposite, that dog joy and human
joy are different, so maybe 

769
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,880
humans don't have it. 
Yes, maybe that. 

770
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,120
Maybe their choice is just much 
more simpler. 

771
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,080
Yeah, no, exactly. 
But that's another C word. 

772
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,040
Context, context choice, 
consent. 

773
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,920
You know, they're really 
important because I might meet 

774
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,120
your dog and your dog might 
really like me, but express it 

775
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,880
in a vastly different way from 
the way she would express it to 

776
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,000
you. 
And so to the question I used to

777
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,560
deal with a lot when I taught 
animal behaviour was comparing. 

778
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,120
You can compare context. 
I would say your average normal 

779
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,320
human feels joy when they see 
another person feeling joy or 

780
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,120
when they're interacting with 
people they like to be with, but

781
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,080
not necessarily all of them. 
And I would say the same about a

782
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,320
dog. 
So I might, I might jump from 

783
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,000
species to species, especially 
with grief, you know that, you 

784
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,040
know, they lost a loved one or a
close friend. 

785
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,320
So there would be some grieving,
but it could be expressed. 

786
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,120
And I've seen it actually in 
dogs in the same household. 

787
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,920
The friend of mine was telling 
me the same story where they had

788
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,280
three dogs. 
One dog died. 

789
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,440
One dog was acting as it was the
best thing in the world because 

790
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,160
now she could have run of the 
house and the other dog moped 

791
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,960
around and didn't eat for days. 
So once again, you need to know 

792
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,280
context. 
So thanks, Adam. 

793
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,040
I want to kind of layer on top 
of that because what about 

794
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,160
perceived negative emotions? 
So let's say for example, I've 

795
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,000
heard of a lot of people say, 
oh, my dog is so spiteful. 

796
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,840
Oh, my dog is so conniving. 
You know, they're very 

797
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,360
calculated. 
I tell them not to do XYZ and 

798
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,600
they go and do XYZ. 
Contextually, how much of that 

799
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,760
would be true or accurate in 
terms of those emotions, 

800
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,800
negative emotions expressed from
the dogs side? 

801
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,040
Well, they would have the 
potential and the ability to do 

802
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,680
that, say act spitefully or 
something like that. 

803
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,440
Or, you know, people have asked,
well, do dogs consciously work 

804
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,840
to people against one another? 
I don't, I don't know, but I 

805
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,560
don't think so. 
That's just my feeling, you 

806
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,840
know, I mean, when you watch, 
you know, I've spent so many 

807
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,560
hours watching free running dogs
and wild coyotes, wild wolves, 

808
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,360
wild foxes, and you just don't 
see that kind of behaviour. 

809
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,640
I'm not going to say they don't 
have the mental capacity, 

810
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,920
emotional capacity to do it, 
cognitive capacity, but I, I 

811
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,680
don't think so. 
And you know, I think a lot of 

812
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,200
it is projection. 
And some of the people who I 

813
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,440
know, I mean, I've known some 
people who say my dog just does 

814
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,560
something piss me off. 
I don't think that's what's 

815
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,160
happening. 
In one case. 

816
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,360
I feel what's happening is your 
dog is telling you they're not 

817
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,800
getting the love and attention 
they need, but they're not 

818
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,480
ripping your sock up because 
they're upset with you. 

819
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:53,960
I think they're ripping your 
sock up or or undoing your 

820
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:58,240
betting when you're not there as
to say they're frustrated. 

821
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:01,440
There's something miss. 
You know, you might do the same.

822
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,960
You might just move something 
around or do something. 

823
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,800
I think they're trying to send 
them a very important messages. 

824
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,880
They're not content with their 
life and they want you to give 

825
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,720
them more attention. 
So it could be attention 

826
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:18,680
getting, but not in terms of a 
spite in the way we might, we 

827
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,600
might define it, yeah. 
Right, so more communication and

828
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,240
less manipulation. 
Exactly. 

829
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:24,840
It comes down to context once 
again. 

830
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:29,160
Yeah, and people that's too hard
to determine then don't have a 

831
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,080
dog. 
I mean, if you're gonna, you 

832
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,480
know, there was a guy at a dog 
park who said this is just BS. 

833
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,000
I just want a dog. 
And I said, well, it's not. 

834
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,080
PS Your dog is a living sentient
being who is dependent on you. 

835
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,240
You're their oxygen. 
You're their lifeline. 

836
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,040
And what happened was, and he 
was a really nice guy. 

837
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,960
I ran into him. 
He said I gave my dog to a 

838
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,160
family who could give him the 
best life. 

839
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,440
I visit him and he is so much 
happier with them than me. 

840
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,120
What do you think? 
And I wanted to hug him because 

841
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,560
I said thank you for being so 
aware that you could not give 

842
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,520
that dog the life that you 
deemed they wanted. 

843
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,200
I really, it made me feel really
good about it. 

844
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,840
So yeah, we project those 
negative things. 

845
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:15,600
I just think people have to be 
really careful. 

846
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,920
Yeah. 100% I agree. 
Someone made a claim recently 

847
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,240
which I found really 
interesting. 

848
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:23,800
They were saying that dogs don't
know the difference between 

849
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,920
right and wrong, they only know 
the difference between safe and 

850
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,720
unsafe. 
Well, that's just, I mean, I 

851
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:30,280
wrote a book called Wild 
Justice. 

852
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,600
I mean, hello. 
No, no, no, no, no, no. 

853
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,360
They know right and wrong. 
They do. 

854
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,760
They, they'll push those who 
push the envelope. 

855
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,320
Why wouldn't they? 
You know you. 

856
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,880
What people forget is when you 
watch wild social animals, I'm 

857
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,920
just going to say mammals, 
carnivores, you know? 

858
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,200
Yeah, they'll push the envelope.
Joe May want to get food from 

859
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,160
Harry or he may want to play 
with Harry and Harry wants 

860
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,960
nothing to do with it. 
So they may sneak around and do 

861
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:55,640
things. 
I've seen, I've seen behaviour 

862
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,400
like behaviour like that and 
wild Penguins, but it's not 

863
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,840
manipulative so much. 
It's just they want something 

864
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,520
and they get the feeling that 
another Penguin or another wolf 

865
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,400
or coyote could be an evenable 
Penguins or birds, you know, and

866
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:11,880
they're going to push the 
envelope. 

867
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,080
How far far could I, how far 
could I push another dog while 

868
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,440
I'm playing, for example? 
And they'll get to a point where

869
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,200
they just know that something 
they did is wrong and they may 

870
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,880
not define it that way when the 
play stops. 

871
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,480
So they're unable to get another
dog to play and they'll change 

872
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,320
their behaviour. 
So I mean just I mean to say 

873
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,160
dogs don't know quote right from
quote wrongs to me just absurd, 

874
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,080
I mean. 
Yeah, wonderful. 

875
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,880
Thank you for clarifying that. 
That's actually revolutionary 

876
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,200
for me because I was really 
thinking, is that true? 

877
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,920
It's the Internet, the Internet 
Internet's all the time. 

878
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,000
Yeah. 
There's one more question for 

879
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,880
you. 
So I know that you are 

880
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,320
completely anti aversive from 
balance training. 

881
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:55,840
Is that correct? 
I'm what? 

882
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,120
Anti balance training. 
Yeah, yeah, I'm all I'm 100% 

883
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,640
force free positive training. 
Yeah, yeah. 

884
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,200
So my question is around that, 
why, when we have science and 

885
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,920
the science is clear, is it so 
hard for people to follow the 

886
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,040
science? 
It's, it's a great question, 

887
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,080
Nadine. 
Positive force free training 

888
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:17,480
works. 
I mean, there's studies that 

889
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,640
show that it might be slower, it
may be more tedious. 

890
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,600
The trainers with whom I talk 
will tell you that, you know, So

891
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,920
some of them will say, well, I'm
seeing a dog who went through 

892
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,920
aversive training for a period 
of time. 

893
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,640
The dog stopped doing what the 
human wanted them to stop doing 

894
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,760
or started doing something that 
human wanted them to start 

895
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,800
doing. 
But the minute the punishment 

896
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,280
stopped or the aversion, they 
just went back to doing it, you 

897
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,720
know, or not doing it, you know,
depending on the case. 

898
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,480
It's like with people who just 
watch sometimes people interact.

899
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,240
I think I could, I mean, I'm not
saying you as you, but I could 

900
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,400
get you to do something if I'm 
not nice to you at a fear, at a 

901
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,720
stress, you may be living 
anxious like so many dogs do. 

902
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,120
So it just seems to me that it's
just not the you would hope you 

903
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,360
wouldn't treat a child that way 
or human. 

904
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,640
So why treat a dog or any other 
animal that way? 

905
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:15,160
So the thing that's sticky is 
it's OK to say no. 

906
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:18,040
You know, people say, well, you 
force free train, I'm not a 

907
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,240
trainer, but you force free 
trainers and you positive 

908
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:23,600
trainers, you don't say no, No, 
of course I say no. 

909
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,360
I mean, I would and they do too.
But it's not like no on a slap 

910
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,160
or no on a shock. 
You know, it's, it's and it's 

911
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,360
amazing because I, I, I was 
doing this before I knew much 

912
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,600
about training and I don't, I'm 
not a trainer. 

913
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,440
Years ago, a silent no, no, you 
can't do that or come here, 

914
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,960
divert their attention. 
Or when I lived in the 

915
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,720
mountains, there were times when
I just had to say no, if there 

916
00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:48,640
was a bear or a Mountain Lion 
around, but I trained them to 

917
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,400
turn around when they were the 
dogs were running free to look 

918
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,640
at me. 
And the minute my hand went in 

919
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,560
my right pocket where I had 
treats, they were there in a 

920
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,760
heartbeat. 
Because if there's a bear or a 

921
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,960
cougar or fox or coyote around 
and I yelled, the dangerous 

922
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,280
animals are going to focus on 
the sound, you know? 

923
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:12,520
So no, no, I mean, I, I, I, you 
know, I just can't imagine, 

924
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,360
imagine somebody living with a 
dog and saying they love their 

925
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,920
dog and then mistreating them. 
And I, the other bumper sticker 

926
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,280
I have is when they, they tell 
me they love their dogs, I say, 

927
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,120
I'm glad you don't love me. 
Because if you love me, I don't 

928
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:30,360
want you treating me that way. 
Yeah, so like you said before, 

929
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,320
joy looks different to different
people. 

930
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,600
Maybe love looks different to 
different people. 

931
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,760
And I guess that like the the 
the tools they use and the 

932
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,440
methods and the philosophies is 
a reflection of their 

933
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,080
understanding of what that 
actually looks like. 

934
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:50,400
Love or control or? 
IA lot of people I know who are,

935
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,520
if you will, control freaks with
humans, and they're lovely 

936
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,560
people. 
I really like them, are control 

937
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,600
freaks with dogs? 
They just are. 

938
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,800
And, and you know, when people, 
I mean, I have really good 

939
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,440
friends who I think are a little
too controlling for me, get 

940
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,560
along because they know that, 
you know, it's not a negative 

941
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,160
thing. 
But, you know, don't tell me 

942
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:10,960
what to do. 
But yeah, you can tell your dog 

943
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:12,560
what to do. 
And you can throw your dog in a 

944
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,920
broom closet when you're away 
and they'll come out wagging 

945
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,360
their tail. 
But don't, don't conflate that 

946
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,000
with love. 
You know, I mean, you know, 

947
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,360
don't conflate the fact that you
punished your dog and you did 

948
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,160
something aversive and then they
behave as if they're doing it 

949
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,440
because they want to or because 
they want to please you or love 

950
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:31,680
you. 
They're doing it because they 

951
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,560
know the only way they could 
feel safe is by doing what you 

952
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:39,000
want them to do, almost 
regardless of how you achieve 

953
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,160
that. 
So I I'm just convinced that, 

954
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,000
you know, it sounds kind of 
whatever hippie is the dog. 

955
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,240
The world needs more peace. 
The world needs needs more love.

956
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:55,840
And Dong dog, human as well as 
human, other animal interactions

957
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:02,360
need a lot more positive type of
reinforcement. 

958
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:03,800
Yeah, I do. 
Yes. 

959
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,520
And I guess the challenge is to 
do that when it's the hardest to

960
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,120
do it. 
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, a 

961
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,680
lot of the work I did in 
corrections was hard. 

962
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,640
And I don't mean that in a light
way, but yes, it sometimes, you 

963
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,800
know, the safest thing to do is 
to just do something that you 

964
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,040
don't want to do. 
The bet or the, I just shouldn't

965
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:24,960
say the safer, but the best 
thing to do. 

966
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,880
But no, I think with dogs and 
other animals and other 

967
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,280
companion animals, get to know 
them as individuals, give them a

968
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,560
good name and then love them and
spoil them because they are so 

969
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,800
sensitive to our minute 
movements just like that or our 

970
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,880
changes in odour that we 
wouldn't sense or the way we 

971
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,760
look or the tone of our voice. 
And once again, when you combine

972
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,840
those cues into a composite 
signal, they are reading us 

973
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,480
really well. 
And they may say, wait a minute,

974
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,840
you know, they didn't, didn't 
behave that way. 

975
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,360
Well, Mark, what, why is he 
doing this? 

976
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,760
I mean, these are the bubbles in
their heads. 

977
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,600
And, and people say, no, just do
some filming. 

978
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,440
I had people taking films with 
their iPhones at the dog park 

979
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,880
and they send me, send me them. 
I I I actually trained a bunch 

980
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,600
of, if you will, lay people, non
scientists to be ethologists, 

981
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,720
citizen scientists. 
And not only that, they love 

982
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:19,840
doing it. 
It bonded them to their dog. 

983
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,680
I have people, I mean, I've 
written, batted some quotes in a

984
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,880
book, came on confidential where
these people would say I love my

985
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,720
dog even more than I love them. 
So anyway, yeah, we can go 

986
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:32,400
online. 
Thank you for thank you for the 

987
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,080
freedom to talk. 
Absolutely. 

988
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,040
What an absolute honour and 
privilege to have had you on. 

989
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,680
Honestly, this is such a huge 
moment for me and so early on in

990
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,640
the life of the podcast, I kind 
of feel like I don't know where 

991
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:48,760
I'm going to go from here so 
early on. 

992
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,360
But honestly, I'm so grateful 
for your time. 

993
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,720
Thank you and your trust. 
Wonderful, Mark. 

994
00:52:53,720 --> 00:53:00,280
So Professor, Doctor Mark, Mark,
you are professor emeritus at 

995
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,360
the moment. 
Did I say that correct? 

996
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,160
Emeritus. 
Professor Emeritus, how do you 

997
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,680
spend your days these days, and 
is there anything that you're 

998
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,120
working on that you want people 
to know about? 

999
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,360
My God, I spend my time talking 
to people like you, writing 

1000
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,080
books, and like I said, I'm just
finishing a young adult book on 

1001
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,320
animal emotions for teens. 
And like I said, you know, Jane 

1002
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:22,960
Goodall and I have a book coming
out. 

1003
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,400
I write regularly for Psychology
Today. 

1004
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,680
I read a lot. 
I ride my bike, you know, 10,000

1005
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:33,320
kilometres or more a year, so 
I'm not looking for things to do

1006
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,400
but at all. 
But I love conversations like 

1007
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,880
this Nadine, because I love 
open-ended conversations and I 

1008
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,560
love not having to worry about 
this and that and the other 

1009
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,480
thing. 
Just talk just and dogs will. 

1010
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:53,120
I'm I really believe that when 
people listen to conversations, 

1011
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,920
not only with me, but you know 
that you will have with other 

1012
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,840
people and others people have 
had with me, they will bet the 

1013
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,560
dogs will benefit. 
Like I said, if you've been dogs

1014
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:05,280
benefit of doubt, spoil them. 
People will go, Oh, my dog 

1015
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,200
doesn't love me. 
He only loves the food I give 

1016
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:07,920
him. 
What should I do? 

1017
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,320
Give him food, but love him. 
It's like with a person, you 

1018
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,200
don't just feed somebody and 
expect them, you know, give them

1019
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,440
love. 
So I think, I think what you're 

1020
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,640
doing is, I think it's very, 
it's really valuable for dog 

1021
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,840
human relationships. 
Thank you so much, I really 

1022
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,680
appreciate that. 
To end us off, I was hoping you 

1023
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,440
could, if you have you have a 
Direct Line to all dog guardians

1024
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,720
around the world. 
What's the one thing you wish 

1025
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:38,320
more people knew about dogs? 
I wish they would know more 

1026
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,400
about dogs. 
I wish I do like we started. 

1027
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:46,160
I wish they would spend a lot 
more time becoming fluent in dog

1028
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:50,920
dog literate because very reason
I wrote my book dogs Demystified

1029
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,800
was to make learning dog 
becoming fluent and dog easy. 

1030
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,200
Because it's just an A-Z guide. 
I'm not trying to sell the book,

1031
00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:59,880
I'm just saying that's why we 
did it. 

1032
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,040
So if you have a problem with 
aggression barking, you wonder 

1033
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,120
if your dog is feels guilty or 
your dog is peeing all over 

1034
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:10,160
whatever it is, just look it up 
and all the references are 

1035
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,520
online on my homepage. 
So you could just have the book.

1036
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,480
There's a link for it go to 
where the references is 

1037
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:20,240
references are and copy and 
paste them into the web. 

1038
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,960
We did it for a purpose because 
people actually write to me 

1039
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,280
because when I read a book I 
hate flipping to the end. 

1040
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,920
I hate have to mean trying to 
write out of your along URL is 

1041
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,680
just unnerving. 
So I've had people say thank you

1042
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,120
for doing that. 
I was reading the section on 

1043
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,960
barking and I wanted to see your
references. 

1044
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,560
So I have my computer screen 
open, I have the book open, I 

1045
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,640
copy and paste the link, put it 
into the web and there's the 

1046
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,640
reference. 
So really once again, I'm not 

1047
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,640
trying to sell the book. 
I'm saying that is why I wrote 

1048
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,760
that book is to make people 
fluent in dog and to understand 

1049
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:00,320
the complexity and simplicity of
dog behaviour and and have it 

1050
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,320
all accessible written for 
people who who are not 

1051
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,640
scientists. 
I mean, scientists can just 

1052
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,880
confuse the hell out of you 
really fast. 

1053
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,080
I mean, I mean, I'm sure your 
interview with Adam was great. 

1054
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:15,720
He is great making making 
science accessible to no, I 

1055
00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:18,440
would say normal people, but. 
Yes, he was. 

1056
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,040
It was wonderful. 
I mean, I was able to talk to 

1057
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,280
him and I am not a scientist by 
any means. 

1058
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,760
But but you know, but really 
that would be the one thing. 

1059
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:29,960
But you want to go, you want to 
go live in another country, 

1060
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,560
learn their language. 
And that's really the best 

1061
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,600
analogy I can make. 
You know, I love, I can speak 

1062
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:37,280
some languages better than 
others. 

1063
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,800
Now, I haven't practised in a 
while, but if I'm going to go 

1064
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,440
live in another country, I'm 
going to learn their language. 

1065
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,400
If I'm going to live with a dog,
I'm going to learn dog. 

1066
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,560
I understand that if you're just
babysitting a dog for the 

1067
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:50,600
weekend, you'll do the best you 
can. 

1068
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,040
Or if you're just going to go on
a holiday for two weeks, you may

1069
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,760
not want to learn the language. 
But if But living with a dog to 

1070
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,800
me is like choosing to go live 
in another country. 

1071
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,720
And at some point you're going 
to have to learn that language 

1072
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:04,720
and to learn dog. 
Absolutely. 

1073
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,280
It improves the relationship and
improves the way that you feel 

1074
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,040
about yourself as well. 
I encourage anyone and everyone 

1075
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:16,520
listening to this to go to 
markbeckhoff.com and you'll find

1076
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:20,200
the directory and books and 
papers and links and things 

1077
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:21,520
there. 
So enjoy. 

1078
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,160
There's a feast to go to. 
Mark, thank you so much for your

1079
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:26,600
time. 
I really appreciate it. 

1080
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,720
Give love to your dog and give 
your dog a hug for me. 

1081
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:31,880
I will do. 
I certainly will do. 

1082
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:33,600
Thank you so much. 
Thank you so much. 

1083
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,120
Bye, bye, bye. 
Bye, bye, bye.