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Merry Christmas and welcome to 
Just a Dog podcast, the podcast 

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for thoughtful dog lovers and 
guardians. 

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I am your host Nadine. 
Today I am joined by Doctor Mark

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Abraham. 
Mark is a Brighton based 

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veterinary surgeon, broadcaster,
author and animal welfare 

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campaigner. 
Alongside his clinical work, he 

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has spent more than a decade 
proving that sustained grass 

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roots campaigning can change the
law. 

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The story begins in 2009 when 
Mark was working a night shift 

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at an out of hours emergency 
clinic in Bryson when several 

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very, very sick puppies arrived 
one after another. 

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Many were suffering from parvo 
virus and all had come through. 

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A commercial third party dealer 
that was linked to a puppy farm 

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That night made the problem 
impossible to ignore. 

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It also made clear that treating
individual dogs was not going to

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be enough. 
It was the system itself that 

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needed to change. 
So over the next 10 years, Mark 

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led the campaign for Lucy's Law.
That law came into force in 

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England in April 2020, banning 
the commercial third party sale 

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of puppies and kittens, meaning 
that people must now buy 

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directly from a breeder or adopt
from a rescue. 

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Mark was awarded an OBE for 
significant services to animal 

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welfare presented by His Majesty
King Charles. 

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The honour recognised his work 
in Lucy's Law Pub Aid and his 

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role as the Co founder and 
secretariat of the All Party 

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Parliamentary Dog Advisory 
Welfare Group. 

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In this conversation, Mark 
shares the family history that 

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shaped his refusal to give up, 
the creative tactics that helped

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a handful of grass roots 
campaigner outmanoeuvre the 

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government and major charities, 
and the practical steps that 

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anyone can take to turn outrage 
into action. 

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Hey Mark, thank you so much for 
joining me on Just a Dog 

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podcast. 
I'm happy to have you here. 

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Thank you for inviting me on, 
Nadine. 

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It's an honour to be on your 
podcast. 

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So I've listened to a bunch of 
podcasts that you've been on. 

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I've read your books and I find 
it really interesting how you 

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had an interest in reptiles and 
small animals from a really 

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young age. 
But how did your journey with 

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dogs specifically begin? 
I've always loved animals. 

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I've never had a dog confession 
and I will do one day and I have

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a lifestyle that can accommodate
one or two. 

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I don't know. 
I mean, my love for reptiles. 

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I had a pet tortoise which 
obviously got me into helping 

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animals because I took a maggot 
out of the leg and it's 

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something that my mum keeps 
reminding me. 

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And the tortoise had a wound on 
its leg, I think it was three. 

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I took the maggot out with a 
twig, cleaned the leg out. 

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The leg got better, tortoise got
better. 

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Just wanted to help animals so 
I'm one of those annoying people

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that actually knew what they 
wanted to do from a very young 

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age and I just had to do it. 
Which turned me into a kind of a

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nerd geek square for all of my 
young life. 

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Until I went to uni and learnt 
what going out was and drinking 

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alcohol was and going to 
parties. 

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Being invited to parties was a 
big deal. 

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It never happened in my teenage 
years and my best friends 

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growing up were frog spawn and 
broken egg shells and capital 

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cities. 
And as in learning them, not 

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visiting them. 
And I was an information 

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hoarder, so I always loved 
animals. 

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And then I think campaigning for
dog welfare happened on in 2009 

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when I saw puppies coming in 
with horrible disease called 

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parvovirus, which is often from 
sort of questionable sources 

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where they're bred puppy farms. 
And it was the injustice of 

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these young families buying 
these dogs and then being left 

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with huge vet bills or even dead
puppies that I just chose to do 

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something about. 
And I always say with 

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campaigning, anyone can make a 
difference in campaign and 

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either start a campaign or join 
the campaign. 

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They've just got to care enough 
to, to get involved and, and I 

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cared enough to get involved in 
that instance. 

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So it was the injustice towards 
dogs and humans. 

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And then I guess in my blood 
I've got I've got a kind of a 

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campaign of DNA anyway, because 
my, as you know, my grandma 

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escaped from the Holocaust and 
she arrived in the UK with the 

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Kindertransport. 
And her stories, nothing short 

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of remarkable about sort of 
being sent to Auschwitz with her

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parents. 
And then ducking under the 

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barriers at Leipzig train 
station, finding a Red Cross 

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uniform from a fancy dress shop,
coming back to the station and 

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pretending to be a nurse to 
evacuate the the 10,000 kids. 

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So she said that anything's 
possible and never give up. 

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So when you've got that in your 
brain, plus a sense of 

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injustice, plus my dad was in 
advertising. 

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So I guess campaigning and 
creative and imagination was 

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quite involved in my childhood. 
Sitting literally looking 

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through books of brands, 
fascinated, copying them out, 

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drawing, I draw. 
My dad's an artist as well. 

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The power of branding, weirdly 
was was so obsessive for me. 

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And also history of art. 
I used to read books. 

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I'm named after Marc Chagall. 
So there's a real melting part 

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of sort of survivor campaigner, 
marketing, landing, creative 

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science, and I think it all sort
of came together and turned me 

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into someone that can campaign 
and hopefully change the world 

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for the better for mainly for 
animals, but it's becoming more 

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about humans as well. 
The the the longer the journey 

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continues. 
I feel like having injustice as 

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a core driver in order to 
identify with that feeling. 

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You might have experienced 
injustice within your own life 

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at some point to be able to 
connect to that part of you. 

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Could you share an experience 
that fuels that drive? 

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I think being Jewish, 
anti-Semitism, you've grown up 

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with it and you've grown up kind
of feeling like the underdog. 

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So you're naturally then more 
empathetic to other underdogs 

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and injustices. 
I mean I'm pretty much an 

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atheist and I'm not practising 
Jew at all. 

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But there is an identity there. 
And especially in the last two 

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years it's been quite difficult 
with a lot of anti-Semitic sort 

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of social media activity stuff 
in the news. 

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And it does make you feel 
vulnerable and it does make you 

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connect more with your own 
feeling a bit of an imposter 

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because I don't sort of 
practise. 

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So all of a sudden I'm like, hi,
I'm one of you. 

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But it's the vulnerability. 
And I, I broke my ribs a few 

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years ago at my 50th. 
Oh. 

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There's a story there. 
Flashback 2 minutes before the 

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end and it's it's a bit like 
when I when I was filming the 

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documentary which we'll talk 
about obviously because it's an 

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invisible illness and so 
painful. 

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Anyone who's broken their ribs 
will know how painful it is. 

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It made me realise obviously 
that anti-Semitism is like an 

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emotional vulnerability, mental 
vulnerability, but as a physical

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vulnerability. 
When you've got broken ribs, no 

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one knows, but you're like no 
one come near me and you're and 

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you suddenly as a six foot three
guy who's never really had any 

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problems health wise, to 
suddenly be vulnerable and 

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suddenly realise how old people 
feel, how disabled people may 

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feel permanently. 
This is obviously a temporary 

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thing with broken ribs. 
So I think I think it's 

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important in life to realise the
the vulnerabilities that we all 

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have. 
And certainly the stuff I do in 

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Westminster at the moment, we 
did one this week about 

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assistance dogs and disability 
rights and about how disabled 

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people are treated. 
You know, you don't look 

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disabled was a common thing that
maybe taxi sale supermarkets 

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say. 
And I think the older we get, 

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the more hopefully the more 
understanding and more 

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sympathetic we become. 
But it doesn't do any harm to 

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keep reminding people to 
sometimes sort of take a deep 

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breath, take a step back, pause 
before. 

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Commonly these days we launch 
into attacks or social media 

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trolls or just nastiness for no 
reason. 

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I think with time and as I say 
with age, we strive to be better

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people. 
It's in the last few, certainly 

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the last few years with the ribs
as a physical thing and and the 

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anti-Semitism as an emotional 
thing. 

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It does make you feel vulnerable
where you didn't before. 

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And and that I think makes us if
you're open minded enough to 

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realise how other people are 
suffering all the time. 

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Or maybe they've got a more 
visible trigger for people to 

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attack or to discriminate. 
Yeah. 

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So, yeah, it's all, I mean, 
everything's underpinned by 

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kindness. 
And I think it's made me more 

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kind and more patient with 
people around me. 

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Yeah, but it's the same thing 
with dogs, isn't it? 

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There's so much we don't see. 
It's not like they can say, 

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excuse me, my ribs are broken, 
you know? 

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So, yeah, once you've 
experienced something, you know,

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but there's a lot that until you
experience something you don't 

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know. 
Somewhat shared experience we've

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both had is the loss of our 
fathers. 

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But it's really hard to 
communicate the feeling of that 

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depth of loss unless you've 
actually experienced it 

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yourself. 
We had amazing speakers, but we 

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had Lucy Edwards, who's a very 
famous blind disability 

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activist. 
She's the model for Pan 10. 

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She's got a guide dog called 
Miss Molly and she she's so 

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eloquent. 
She said when she started her 

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talk on Tuesday in Parliament, 
she was like, one minute I'm 

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filming this amazing advert with
everyone running around and I'm 

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the celebrity. 
The next minute I'm trying to 

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get an Uber home and no one's 
stopping. 

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And it was an amazing insight 
into the discrimination that 

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disabled people feel, 
experience, blind people 

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experience, people with 
persistence, dogs experience. 

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And we can all do better. 
And it was about restaurants and

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it was about taxis and it was 
about Ubers and it was about 

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airlines and how the culture 
needs to change. 

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And we can all play a part in 
that. 

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And certainly we're going to be 
working together at potentially 

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influencing legislation. 
I mean, she's got such an 

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incredible fan base, but for 
that with campaigning tools is 

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is insane for someone like me is
a grassroots campaigner. 

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Like hello, we can provide what 
you can't and you can provide 

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what we can't. 
Perfect collaboration. 

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She's already up for it. 
So a lot of the campaigning is 

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sort of finding like finding 
like minded people that can help

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sort of push things along and 
get results for for both, in 

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this case for both humans and 
assistance dogs. 

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But yeah, the Dead Parent club, 
it doesn't exist until you 

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become a part of it and then 
everyone's incredibly 

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sympathetic. 
There's also the sort of the 

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dead parent cancer club where 
everyone wants to help. 

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Everyone is available to hear 
and listen and, and message or 

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call. 
And it's obviously nothing 

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you've ever experienced, as you 
quite rightly say, until you've 

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experienced it. 
And I think when you get into 

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your 40s and 50s, it's more 
likely to happen if it hasn't 

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happened already. 
And also you're there for your 

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friends for when it happens to 
them. 

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I was one of the first to have a
dead parent. 

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So it's so funny because when it
happens that you're one of the 

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first, not that people don't 
care, but. 

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They don't have the. 
They don't have that level of 

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that must be awful. 
That's very few lost all the 

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normal stuff, which is fine 
obviously, and lovely. 

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But as as soon as someone has 
experienced, oh, it's a game 

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changer. 
And it's a support network. 

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Yeah. 
Very lucky to have my friends 

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and family around me. 
And also I feel I feel 

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privileged to be in a position 
now to help others who've gone 

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through similar things in the 
last 10 years since my dad 

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passed. 
Yeah. 

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Has it been 10 years? 
Ten years on next April the 4th,

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but it's and it feels like 
yesterday, as I'm sure it does 

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for you. 
But again, it's underpinned by 

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kindness. 
And I think kindness is the 

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thing that really helps 
everything get better. 

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And I think everyone could do 
with, you know, most people are 

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kind, but there are instances 
you see opportunities for 

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kindness missed When I do my 
school visits, which are called 

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furry friends and feelings. 
It's all about kindness, and 

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it's all about not just 
kindness. 

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Be kind to each other. 
Be kind to your teachers, your 

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parents, yourselves, animals 
obviously. 

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And kind of the world is a lot 
better for it. 

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Absolutely. 
Sometimes we say these things 

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like be kind, be happy, be 
whatever, but what's missing is 

230
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,280
the practical application of it.
What does that actually look 

231
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,600
like to kids? 
How would you, how would you 

232
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,000
communicate that to them in 
terms of dogs specifically? 

233
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,320
So the the Lesson plan briefly 
is because they don't know me 

234
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,640
and I'm sitting in front of a 
load of 20 or 30 4 year olds, 5 

235
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,600
year olds, 6 year olds, 7 year 
olds, 8 year olds. 

236
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,440
That's the sort of primary 
school page range. 

237
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,680
We start with a game where they 
have to guess what the baby 

238
00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:43,680
animal turns into. 
It's laminated cards. 

239
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,600
So we start with basically going
what are these animals going to 

240
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,080
be? 
And there's a fox card or 

241
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,960
there's a dragonfly larvae. 
There's a Flamingo that's grey 

242
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,160
and a baby because they haven't 
eaten the shrimp yet. 

243
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,000
So everything has a little bit 
of a back sort of tadpole 

244
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,000
Caterpillar. 
So there's loads of them and 

245
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,880
that gets because they love 
games that gets them to sort of 

246
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,240
trust me, gets them all excited.
And then the last one, spoiler, 

247
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,720
is a baby hedgehog, which turns 
over and it's a hedgehog with a 

248
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,920
bandage on its leg. 
So then we turn into how did we 

249
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:15,880
know this hedgehog had a bad 
leg? 

250
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,120
Limping, crying, bleeding, 
whatever. 

251
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,240
What other symptoms of ill 
health are there? 

252
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:21,720
Someone always coughs at that 
point. 

253
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,440
Unbelievable. 
Thank you. 

254
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,920
You're right. 
Cough and then sneezing. 

255
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,480
So that's sort of visible 
problems. 

256
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,240
And then we talk about invisible
problems and someone will say 

257
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,400
cancer and someone will say 
virus. 

258
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,280
And then we talk about what 
about in your brain? 

259
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,960
Someone will always say headache
at that point, what else? 

260
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,800
What about mental? 
And they go health, health, 

261
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,160
health, what's mental health? 
And we go around, it's 

262
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,920
fascinating and they all know 
mental health, but when they try

263
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,640
and describe it, it's 
incredible. 

264
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,360
So we talk about their mental 
health, why it's important, what

265
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,080
we can do to protect it. 
And then we talk about animals 

266
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,000
mental health and how kindness 
can improve and affect animals 

267
00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,920
mental health. 
So that's a really good one. 

268
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:03,520
And then we talk about dog bites
and, and muzzles and asking the 

269
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,920
owner and holding your hand out 
and all that sort of stuff. 

270
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,840
And then I have a bag of tricks 
from the surgery, which they 

271
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,760
have to guess what they're all 
used for. 

272
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,160
And we get to, we get to them 
every time, even whelping 

273
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,160
forceps, stethoscope. 
And at the end it's we had to do

274
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,760
a little bit of Q&A. 
Depending on the year, we may do

275
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,400
fireworks or Halloween dressing 
pets up, obviously not 

276
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,600
recommended. 
Local wildlife like the styling 

277
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,360
murmuration on the Brighton 
pier, dogs borrowing livestock 

278
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,640
on the South Downs so we can 
apply it, summer dangers, winter

279
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,880
dangers. 
And then it's an hour's up and 

280
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,360
it's totally interactive so that
hopefully they don't get too 

281
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:38,440
bored. 
But yeah, it's. 

282
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,320
But you can weave kindness into 
any of that stuff. 

283
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,280
And a lot of it is just being 
kind enough to be aware of 

284
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,200
something and give it some 
thought. 

285
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,960
Start the conversation, talk to 
your friends about it. 

286
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,440
Alert your teacher about 
something else. 

287
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,200
Furry Friends and Feelings 
really does educate that animals

288
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,360
have feelings and they also have
mental health. 

289
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,000
And we should be protecting them
as well as protecting ourselves 

290
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,640
and our friends and our teachers
and our parents or our carers, 

291
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,320
everyone, the environment. 
And that's what I finish on. 

292
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,880
I get my OBE medal out, and the 
teacher's primed to have the 

293
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,880
picture of me getting the medal 
from Charles on the big screen. 

294
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:17,960
And they go, and I go, who's 
that? 

295
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,560
And they go, it's the king. 
It's the king. 

296
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,440
And I go, yeah, but who's who's 
that talking to me? 

297
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,880
And they go, oh, hilarious. 
And I say, I've got this for 

298
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,080
being kind to animals. 
But all of you can get a medal 

299
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,600
from the king. 
You'll be William when it's your

300
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,400
turn for being kind to the 
animals. 

301
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,560
And humans or the environment or
whatever, who's who wants a 

302
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,480
medal from the king? 
And they all lose their minds. 

303
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,520
Who's going to promise to be 
kind to everything? 

304
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,240
How's that losing their mind? 
And then as they file out, they 

305
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,520
touch the medal because the 
King's touched it. 

306
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,040
And it's a little connection to 
the king. 

307
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,680
And it's, it's, it's amazing. 
But it, it does resonate. 

308
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,200
And I'm lucky enough, obviously,
to have a medal to do that with,

309
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:02,080
but it's just another tool to 
show how kindness is rewarded 

310
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,920
And they, well, they all promise
to be kind. 

311
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,160
I love that stardom, young. 
Yeah, and I think a lot of the 

312
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,280
animal abuse and human abuse and
just nastiness in the world can 

313
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,240
to some degree be prevented or 
at least slowed down at that 

314
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:21,200
young age where you do emphasise
the importance of kindness and 

315
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,080
empathy and compassion and use 
examples of why it's a good 

316
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,280
thing. 
And it should be celebrated, 

317
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,920
engaged with and promoted and 
shared. 

318
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,200
Yeah, I agree. 
I was speaking to Les from the 

319
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,920
IA WPC a couple of weeks ago and
he was telling me about how 

320
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,360
Morocco, there's a lot of issues
at the moment with the killing 

321
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,320
of dogs in preparation for FIFA 
World Cup in 20-30. 

322
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,080
And they were sharing about 
children and their exposure to 

323
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,040
such horrific violence and how 
that kind of desensitises them 

324
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,240
at a very young age. 
So I think education is really 

325
00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,280
important and I love that you do
that here in the UK. 

326
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,320
It would be amazing to have more
people teach the softer skills. 

327
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,200
100% And I've there is a there 
is a sort of a collaboration of 

328
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,480
big charities and I have 
approached them and said look 

329
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:15,319
use my Lesson plan any help I 
can give because we should be 

330
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,160
taught in the curriculum fair 
enough, but in the meantime, 

331
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,240
which is probably unlikely to 
happen, we can all do it. 

332
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:27,119
So any vets, any vet nurses, any
rescue shelter staff, dog 

333
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,840
behaviourist, anyone who has a 
career that involves animals can

334
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:36,160
do an hour a year, let's say 
into a local primary school, Cub

335
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,840
Scout group, Girl Guides, anyone
who can be shaped and influenced

336
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,840
at a young age to be kind to 
animals. 

337
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,040
Doesn't have to be a vet, it's 
just a case of, again, caring 

338
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,080
enough to want to do it. 
And it can only if if you're 

339
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,320
worried about, oh, it's an hour 
out of my day, it's an hour I 

340
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,120
can't make any money in my 
business. 

341
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,400
It couldn't benefit your 
business more to be seen as a 

342
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,520
key opinion leader in your 
community who's kind and gets on

343
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,720
with animals and children. 
You kidding me? 

344
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,360
It's, it's can really help. 
Not that I do it for this reason

345
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,720
because I don't own this 
practise, but it can really help

346
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,520
bring business in because most 
people who own animals have 

347
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,760
families or will know people who
have families. 

348
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,840
So why not go to the local vet 
or use that behaviourist or or 

349
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,360
that boarding kennels because 
they go to local schools. 

350
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:22,960
It's so obvious. 
It really is obvious and it 

351
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,640
annoys me a little bit because I
don't understand why there's, as

352
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,440
you say, there's not more people
doing it. 

353
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,760
And it's really enjoyable. 
You know, it's, it's really fun 

354
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,400
to have all these kids in front 
of you and little jokes and 

355
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,640
little comments. 
And it's like you do come away 

356
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,920
feeling energised and also 
knowing that there's going to be

357
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,800
1 in there that takes this 
seriously or one that wants to 

358
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,080
become a vet or a vet nurse or, 
or someone involved with 

359
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,120
animals. 
And it is inspirational for them

360
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:53,240
because all of a sudden they see
someone different than their 

361
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,440
teacher and they tend to pay a 
little bit more attention when 

362
00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,320
it's a stranger coming in rather
than the same old teacher. 

363
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,360
But yeah, my motto really in the
last few years has been if you 

364
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:09,280
can, why wouldn't you? 
And that, I mean, that keeps my 

365
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,400
diary pretty full. 
But I do think if you know while

366
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,480
you can and you're able, why 
wouldn't you? 

367
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,480
I mean, Peter Egan, who most 
people will be aware of actor 

368
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,880
and a more rights activist. 
He's the same as me. 

369
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,320
If he can help something, he 
will be there. 

370
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,160
And he's more active than me. 
And he's 80 next year. 

371
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,000
And I genuinely don't know how 
he does it, but he does. 

372
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,320
And he does it because he cares 
enough to, to get involved. 

373
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,720
And hopefully that inspires 
people to also come out and and 

374
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,640
help when they can. 
I think, I think I heard 

375
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,360
somewhere Peter Egan is like 
your surrogate dad. 

376
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,200
Yeah, I mean, he really is. 
And the weirdest coincidence, he

377
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,200
gave my parents a lift home from
Westminster once, back in the 

378
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,600
early days of campaigning. 
And it turns out my dad was in 

379
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,520
advertising. 
As I mentioned, Peter Egan did a

380
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,200
lot of voice overs in the 80s 
and they actually established 

381
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,800
that they worked together. 
And then my dad died in 2016, 

382
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,240
and they were always. 
Very matey, kind of a similar 

383
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,400
culture in the 80s, advertising 
and things like that. 

384
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,960
And and then Peter, because he 
hasn't got, he's got a 

385
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,360
stepdaughter, he hasn't got any,
he hasn't got a son. 

386
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,000
And because we had such a strong
bond and we were kind of doing 

387
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:26,120
all the same dog shows and stuff
together, we became a father, 

388
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:28,760
son kind of duo. 
And we have that relationship, 

389
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,640
you know, we speak every week, 
we're there for each other. 

390
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,000
Especially when his wife Mayra 
sadly passed. 

391
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,680
I was there for him and he's we.
We have so much fun together, as

392
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,840
well as obviously the serious 
campaigning side. 

393
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,400
It's wonderful that you have him
thinking about your dad. 

394
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,880
Like my my journey with the 
podcast and everything to do 

395
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,800
with dogs came from the loss of 
my dad and reflecting on legacy 

396
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,560
and what can I dedicate my life 
to quite comfortably, 

397
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:03,120
consistently and make an impact.
And so his legacy inspired my 

398
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:05,920
attempt at legacy. 
So what do you think your dad's 

399
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,400
legacy was and what would be 
yours? 

400
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,280
Wait, kind of along with my mum,
who is a phenomenal communicator

401
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:19,280
and does not miss an opportunity
to make money for charity, to 

402
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,480
network and to make the world a 
better place. 

403
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,800
And my dad, as I mentioned, he 
was in advertising, so he had a 

404
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,840
campaigning brain, He was a 
creative. 

405
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,640
He came up with some incredible 
iconic adverts, commercials of 

406
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,760
our time and brands both here 
and overseas. 

407
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,880
So I kind of from him and I'm 
very similar personality wise to

408
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,600
him. 
And then honestly, the mixture 

409
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,480
of my mum's properties and 
qualities and my dad's is 

410
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,880
totally made who I am, which is 
unsurprising genetically, but 

411
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,520
when But when you look back as 
an adult and you go, OK, that 

412
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,520
makes sense. 
You know, things, things kind of

413
00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:00,440
make more sense the old you get.
So yeah, my legacy from him is, 

414
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:06,920
is being able to run campaigns 
and hopefully successfully. 

415
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:13,480
And and whereas advertising 
you're using your resources to 

416
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:19,160
to reach a lot of people and get
them to do something by 

417
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:24,400
something, gunshots campaigning 
is using your resources to 

418
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,120
usually 0. 
But it's that's why creativity 

419
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,320
and imagination is such a force 
in grassroots campaigning to get

420
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,000
noticed, to get a lot of people 
to to do something, a call to 

421
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,360
action, which is often sign and 
share a petition, contact your 

422
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,280
MP. 
You know, they're simple things,

423
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,960
but the the two ways of doing it
are unbelievably similar. 

424
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,080
And as I say, creativity and 
imagination to get noticed. 

425
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,040
And we see still see, there you 
go. 

426
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,840
It's an all right book. 
It's a great book and there's a 

427
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,600
lot of crossover, as you say, 
between advertising, marketing. 

428
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,920
I I'm a marketer and my 
background is marketing. 

429
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,080
And as I was reading this book, 
I was like this Campaigning is 

430
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,000
marketing. 
Yeah, it's without a budget and 

431
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,120
it's amazing what you can 
achieve with literally 0 money. 

432
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:15,480
I mean, we made all, all minimal
money. 

433
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,920
I mean, some of the greatest 
things we'd ever did on the 

434
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,120
campaign trail, I'd say we were 
a coalition of grassroots 

435
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,080
campaigners who got Lucy's 
lawyer over the line. 

436
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,840
There's five or six of us, 
different parts of the country. 

437
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,800
This was before WhatsApp, really
before Instagram. 

438
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,440
And we had Linda and Sue in 
Wales, we had Julia and 

439
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,560
Folkstone, we had Philippa who 
sadly passed away also in 2016, 

440
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,400
cancer and in later years Sarah 
and Redditch. 

441
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,880
That was it. 
And we were against the pet 

442
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,920
industry, we were against the 
government and we were 

443
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,720
campaigning against the four 
biggest animal welfare charities

444
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,120
in the UK. 
Believe it or not. 

445
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:53,960
Well, you do believe it because 
you've read it. 

446
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,360
But we outmanoeuvred and 
navigated them all just by being

447
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:04,080
very, very patient chess. 
I played a lot with my dad. 

448
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:07,200
That definitely develops a young
brain into strategy, playing the

449
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,600
long game, anticipating the next
move of your opponent. 

450
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,160
But for example, you know 
Mother's Day at Crofts one year 

451
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,320
we made this three metre high, 2
metre across Mother's Day card 

452
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,520
on Sunday, which is obviously 
best in show. 

453
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,760
Had a picture of Lucy in the 
middle and it said happy 

454
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,360
Mother's Day, question mark, 
question mark about the breeding

455
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,920
dogs. 
And that attracted media that 

456
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,400
attracted Channel 4. 
And the item they put was on 

457
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,920
just before Best in Show with a 
band. 

458
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,160
Claire Balding talks about a 
petition which was live at the 

459
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,840
time, got about 20,000 
signatures in an hour. 

460
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,240
She's mad to watch. 
But it wasn't. 

461
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,680
It was a relatively inexpensive 
banner in the next year because 

462
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,520
we wanted to change the law in 
Wales. 

463
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,560
We knew that the Welsh Springers
would be coming, 150 of them, 75

464
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,000
dogs, 75 bitches. 
So I contacted the breed clubs. 

465
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,720
I said, look, can they wear a 
Lucy's Law rosette and A and a 

466
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,120
Welsh flag bandana And then do a
like a flash mob between the 

467
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,320
judging between the the males 
and the females? 

468
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,120
Yeah. 
OK, so this is such and 50 it's 

469
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:10,560
pictures still online because it
got quite a bit of media 

470
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,400
coverage. 150 dogs wearing the 
Lucy's Laurosa and the Welsh 

471
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,560
flag bandana just all lined up 
at crafts and that was enough to

472
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,200
trigger the Welsh government to 
for the consultation for Lucy's 

473
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,360
law in Wales. 
So there's so much we can I mean

474
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:27,440
Papaid as well. 
Papaid was the big dog show. 

475
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,600
It starts in Brighton went to 
Primrose Hill. 

476
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,840
Again, celebrities judging dogs 
became massive. 

477
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,720
Ricky Gervais came Brian May 
came all these celebrities, 

478
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,800
reality styles, Sue Perkins, 
Rachel Riley, Elle McPherson, 

479
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,720
because they just like dogs and 
they just wanted to be part of 

480
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,120
change that cost a fortune to 
put on obviously from 

481
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,280
sponsorship wasn't from our 
money, but it just shows if you 

482
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,040
have the I mean, you know, if in
marketing its tone is 

483
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,120
everything. 
If you have the right tone and 

484
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,160
the right message and and you 
have a solution always helps 

485
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,160
with campaigning. 
People can get on board because 

486
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,400
it's it's something that they 
can't do, but they they trust 

487
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,440
you to do it and they also look 
good in the process. 

488
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,120
So it's two way same with MPs. 
You want their help, but you are

489
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,440
making them look good and 
compassionate and kind at the 

490
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,720
same time and you just get on 
with it and it's amazing. 

491
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,720
Over the years, I think back 
about some of the campaigns 

492
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,960
we've run, how they've been 
picked up and how they've been 

493
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,680
noticed. 
I mean, my first ever animal 

494
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,000
welfare campaign was where's Mum
hashtag Where's mum for, you 

495
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,400
know, sort of obviously empower 
prospective dog owners to, to go

496
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,200
and ask for mum. 
And that got picked up by 

497
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,600
Channel 5. 
And we got sort of Meg Matthews 

498
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,920
and Anais Gallagher as a, as a 
where's mum couple. 

499
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:41,000
And at the time there was Debbie
and Lydia from Tawi as a mum 

500
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,000
couple. 
We we were Anais and Meg were in

501
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,760
the Mail Online and Debbie and 
Lydia were Channel 5 with one of

502
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,640
the gabbies on her show. 
And it just shows how you can 

503
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:03,320
campaign with very simple tools,
but become very inviting for, I 

504
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,520
mean, celebrities are 
everything, as you know, with 

505
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,800
marketing and advertising, 
celebrity endorsement means 

506
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,400
obviously that celebrity thinks 
you're OK. 

507
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,680
And the cooler ones and the 
bigger the ones, the better. 

508
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,680
But also you have their reach of
their social networks, which 

509
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,360
these days is even more 
important. 

510
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,920
So we've always been inclusive 
with all their campaigns. 

511
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,480
We've always said anyone can get
involved. 

512
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,080
And it's it works. 
And there's a template, which 

513
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,360
isn't rocket science and it's 
certainly nothing I've come up 

514
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:35,600
with. 
But there's a certain toolkit 

515
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,400
that if you apply anything you 
want to change and I, I, I 

516
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,040
always advise you have a 
solution because otherwise 

517
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,080
you're just someone that's 
complaining about something, 

518
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,080
especially when you're 
campaigning in parliament, have 

519
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,120
a solution that's worked out 
that's relatively inexpensive 

520
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:56,560
and that's cross party and 
that's legislatively. 

521
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,600
See, I still can't do this 
bloody word. 

522
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:05,040
It's enforceable and it, and it 
can be, it can be spelled out in

523
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,600
legislations. 
Yeah, there's ways of doing 

524
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,360
stuff. 
Cross party, you said. 

525
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,000
What does that mean? 
Cross party means support from 

526
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,120
all the parties right? 
So Conservatives and Labour and 

527
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,800
maybe even reform Lib Dem and 
Green. 

528
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,280
I mean not it doesn't have to be
all of them, but when government

529
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,920
is considering new legislation 
and you have cross party support

530
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,000
and you have support from the 
major stakeholders, which in our

531
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,960
industry is usually the big 
charities, it's OK for them to 

532
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,440
pass. 
It's less controversial. 

533
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,520
They call it consensus. 
If you have a piece of proposed 

534
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,200
legislation that only 
Conservatives are backing or 

535
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,480
three out of the four biggest 
animal welfare charities in the 

536
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,120
UK, for example, greyhound 
racing, backing the government 

537
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,480
won't do anything. 
It was unlikely because if you 

538
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,920
their, their mind says, but if 
you not can't decide what the 

539
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,640
right thing to do is how we 
meant it. 

540
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,240
And I get it. 
So consensus, whether it's the 

541
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,400
stakeholders cross party in 
Westminster, celebrities always 

542
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,360
help. 
You're basically surrounding the

543
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,920
chief decision maker with 
everyone saying and the 

544
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,320
petition. 
So the public with everyone 

545
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,360
saying you need to do this 
solution. 

546
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,720
And it's very hard for them to 
them to back out. 

547
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,760
It's very easy when you don't 
get consensus in any of those 

548
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,680
things. 
So it's kind of an ambush of the

549
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,400
chief decision maker, which is 
how we could get Lucy's Law, 

550
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,640
really. 
But how do you get consensus 

551
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,040
without diluting or changing 
your overall message, especially

552
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,960
when other parties have maybe 
different values and priorities?

553
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,440
First of all, you don't 
compromise. 

554
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,520
Second of all, you, you create a
fear of missing out, which I 

555
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,880
think is really important power.
And that includes having Ricky 

556
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,120
Gervais on board, you know, 
having Diane Morgan or having 

557
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,920
Rachel Riley on board, having 
cool celebrities because if 

558
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,680
they're involved, it's very hard
for either stakeholders or 

559
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,360
parliamentarians to go. 
Don't want to get involved with 

560
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,400
anything Ricky's involved with. 
You're mental. 

561
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,320
So that's important. 
And as I say, it's like an 

562
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,880
ambush. 
You, you not just about the 

563
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:14,320
chief decision maker, but you, 
you also provide such a momentum

564
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,240
that's inclusive to everyone. 
It's basically, you can come in 

565
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,960
if you like and we'd love your 
support. 

566
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,320
If you have to think about it, 
if you have to maybe ask your 

567
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,520
supporters, fine. 
But we're going to kind of do it

568
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,040
anyway. 
And you don't really want to be 

569
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,280
left on the shelf when we cross 
the line and pass the law and 

570
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,240
everyone's celebrating and then 
your supporters are going, why 

571
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,680
weren't you a part of this? 
So it's a kind of a manipulative

572
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,520
thought process, but it's only 
to create good stuff. 

573
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,480
So yeah, there there's a lot of 
psychology involved with 

574
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,840
campaigning which I never really
knew about because I hadn't done

575
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,040
it before. 
But it becomes obvious the more 

576
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,040
you do it. 
And, and also you have, yeah, 

577
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,880
exactly marketing. 
And also you have to be prepared

578
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,040
to fail because that just makes 
your campaign stronger because 

579
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,240
you're, it actually makes you 
stop, reassess and come back and

580
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,720
come back after you've spoken 
and to a few other people, 

581
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,480
parliamentarians, I mean, we 
kept failing. 

582
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,560
We lost our first ever eat 
petition. 

583
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,280
A lot of people I think would 
have given up. 

584
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,560
But when it's about animals, you
can't because if you give up, no

585
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,240
one's going to carry on. 
The Select Committee inquiry, 

586
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,360
which is when MPs go and look at
a puppy farm, for example, and 

587
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,160
have an inquiry in Westminster 
with people giving evidence. 

588
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,720
That was the turning point for 
the for Parliament to get on 

589
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,400
board. 
And then they recommend to the 

590
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,920
government to pass Lucy's Law, 
which is a bad on commercial 

591
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,360
sale of puppies and kittens and 
pet stores and other third 

592
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,360
parties, now known as Luby's 
Law. 

593
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,320
And the government rejected the 
Select Committee recommendation,

594
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,120
which was unheard of. 
And then we found out there was 

595
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,040
charities behind that who are 
sabotaging. 

596
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,680
So that's why we set up the All 
Party parliamentary group to 

597
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,440
expose those charities in in a 
room full of campaigners and 

598
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,640
journalists, which worked. 
Thank God, that's the last row 

599
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,680
of the dice. 
So there are ways of doing it. 

600
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,120
And again, the grandma's mantra 
of anything's possible and never

601
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,240
give up. 
And I remember standing, you 

602
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,280
know, Westminster Bridge, you've
got the Lords, the Commons, Big 

603
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,160
Ben, Portcullis House, Downing 
St behind thinking, what am I 

604
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,680
doing here? 
Like proper imposter syndrome, 

605
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,000
which kind of has never left me,
which I like. 

606
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,760
It's got better because I go 
there so much and do so much 

607
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,240
there, but I love the feeling of
being a science nerd who did 

608
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,080
biology, chemistry and physics, 
and I'm a vet and all of a 

609
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,520
sudden I'm attending Parliament 
and speaking in Parliament, 

610
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,240
which I'd love now. 
I mean, I was terrified to speak

611
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,440
to humans. 
That alone a room full of them 

612
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,800
when I was growing up as most 
people are, but repetition and 

613
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,560
the stuff I do and you're 
passionate about. 

614
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,200
And then I did a lot of live TV 
and Paul O'Grady absolutely 

615
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,480
terrifying. 
But after. 

616
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,840
But the the feeling of educating
viewers and the difference that 

617
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,640
can make to their animals was 
much more important than how I 

618
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,880
felt and my own social anxieties
by going on live TV to a studio 

619
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,920
audience and a 5 million 
viewers. 

620
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,880
So I say this in my senior 
school visit, secondary school 

621
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,720
visit is you know, when you, 
when you are planning a career, 

622
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,160
as well as being kind and being 
prepared, be prepared to be out 

623
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,360
of your comfort zone and who 
knows what will come from it. 

624
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,640
And I think if I hadn't done all
that, I wouldn't be sitting here

625
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,080
now telling you about changing 
laws or campaigning or helping 

626
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,840
animals and humans. 
But again, with campaigning, 

627
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,280
with marketing, any of these 
activities, it's about seeing 

628
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,160
the opportunity or creating the 
opportunity and just not missing

629
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,160
that opportunity and maximising 
the opportunity. 

630
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,240
And they're everywhere. 
Opportunities. 

631
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,080
Even talking to someone at the 
bus stop about something you're 

632
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,000
passionate about is an 
opportunity. 

633
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,120
So I'm happy to just be in this 
unbelievably privileged position

634
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,160
now. 
And you know, Westminster in my 

635
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,760
consulting room to make a 
difference, whether it's 

636
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,960
vaccinating a puppy or chairing 
a meeting of 200 people in the 

637
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,960
biggest committee room. 
I love the feeling of making a 

638
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,440
difference and it's certainly 
changed my life from not being 

639
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,320
from a political background. 
Hopefully it's shown others that

640
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,360
anyone can do this. 
You just have to care enough 

641
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,320
about it to want to get 
involved. 

642
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,800
But that's why I wrote that 
book, because it's a handbook 

643
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,679
for anyone to pick up and go. 
I can sit on the toilet and 

644
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,480
share a petition that's making a
difference, or you can do the 

645
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,719
whole leader campaign changing 
the law. 

646
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,600
But there's something for 
everyone along that whole 

647
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,719
spectrum. 
Absolutely. 

648
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,960
And I encourage people to do it 
because it does make you feel 

649
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,920
good too. 
Not the reason I do it, but it's

650
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,520
a it's a side effect. 
This is the thing though, isn't 

651
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,040
it? 
Especially online, we get 

652
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,280
exposed to a lot of things and 
there's a lot happening in the 

653
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,000
world as well. 
You know, it's quite easy if 

654
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,199
you're looking to feel any sense
of rage, you will quickly find 

655
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:44,600
it in many places online. 
But the the key difference, I 

656
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,639
think that you taught me 
actually, is not just to 

657
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,239
complain, but to do something 
about it and to present a 

658
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,639
solution, because without the 
solution, you're just 

659
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,200
complaining. 
So I would like to because we're

660
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,040
kind of running out of time and 
I still want to go on to dog 

661
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,280
spiracy. 
Oh yeah. 

662
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,520
If you can just tell me that. 
I know there's so much to cover,

663
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,640
Tell tell people who are 
infuriated by something, whether

664
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,320
it's the noise of the fireworks 
or hair coursing, fox hunting, 

665
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,760
whatever it is, if they feel 
enraged enough to do something, 

666
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,520
what is the first three steps to
get? 

667
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,440
Started, I think research what's
already been done or what's what

668
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:30,240
is being done and whether there 
is a solution already put 

669
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:32,960
forward. 
And then I guess the next two 

670
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,360
would be to meet your local MP, 
which is easy. 

671
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,280
And if you don't live in London,
they'll do a what's called a 

672
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,320
surgery, do you on a Friday or a
Saturday, sometimes both in 

673
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,560
their constituency. 
You can book an appointment and 

674
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,600
just chat with them. 
And if they can't help you, 

675
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,280
they'll know someone that can. 
And also it will make you feel 

676
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,640
better that you've raised it 
with a parliamentarian. 

677
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,000
And then of course if if you 
have a solution and you have 

678
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,320
backing from your MP or other 
MPs or stakeholders, then 

679
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,840
consider doing an E petition but
don't do a Change.org. 

680
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,480
If you want to change the law 
and make a difference, do a 

681
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,480
government E petition. 10,000 
signatures gives you an official

682
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,000
response which is normally 
everything's fine, leave us 

683
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,400
alone. 
But sometimes it gives you even 

684
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,800
more tools to to take to the 
next level. 100,000 gets you a 

685
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,960
debate in Parliament, which is 
an amazing achievement. 

686
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:23,920
Which you've done before. 
Yeah, I've done. 

687
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,080
I've done three times. 
It's an amazing achievement in 

688
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,600
terms of campaigning, not 
necessarily personally, because 

689
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,520
what that does obviously it gets
MPs and ministers talking about 

690
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,400
it, discussing the solution, 
talking about their own 

691
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,280
experiences, representing their 
constituents, being there in the

692
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,520
chamber, usually Westminster 
Hall, not the not the main 

693
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,600
chamber. 
But what debating does is it 

694
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,240
gets the briefings from anyone 
that's opposing you sent to the 

695
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:56,840
MPs to read out and that's where
the real campaigning starts. 

696
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,600
So I say it's, it's an 
incredible achievement because 

697
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,240
all of a sudden you've got all 
the reasons and this and you've 

698
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:08,040
made excellent friends with MPs,
maybe even your local 1 can do 

699
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,000
this and they'll share the 
briefings coming in from the 

700
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,840
opposing stakeholders. 
So then you start picking them 

701
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,360
apart, having more meetings, 
meetings with the ministers and 

702
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:18,360
going actually they've written 
that. 

703
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,760
That's absolute rubbish, they've
written that down, that's 

704
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,640
absolute. 
That's just lies. 

705
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,800
So you can start making actual 
progress on the push back. 

706
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,640
And it's usually a vested 
interest, usually when you go, 

707
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,680
usually a economical reason why 
what you want can't go ahead. 

708
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,800
But it's it's all it can all be 
easily overcome because if a big

709
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,360
celebrity's on your side and 
you've got a solution and you've

710
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,200
got cross party support and all 
the other stakeholders are 

711
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,160
saying yes, you'll probably get 
it. 

712
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,560
But it's the case of sort of 
being the sheepdog dog related, 

713
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,080
rounding everyone up and never 
used this analogy before 

714
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,440
rounding everyone up. 
So they're kind of all facing 

715
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,400
the right way. 
And that's when you sort of, 

716
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,240
you're more likely, I'm never 
going to say you're definitely 

717
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:09,760
going to get what you want, but 
you're more likely to get it. 

718
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,080
And if you don't, it's up to you
to then find out why and unravel

719
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,760
those and then go again. 
So it's almost like waves of 

720
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,760
campaigning. 
This is what we did for Lucy's 

721
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,200
Law, which is why it took 10 
years. 

722
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,000
But anything's possible. 
And, you know, do what's right. 

723
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,800
That's, that's, that's kind of, 
you know, Martin Luther King 

724
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,240
quote. 
You know, the arc of the moral 

725
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:33,240
universe always bends towards 
justice, which is true. 

726
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:35,880
The world should become a better
place. 

727
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:42,200
And it's up to us who care about
stuff enough to speed that up, 

728
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,840
you know, and we can all do it. 
The tools are there. 

729
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,520
Most of them are free. 
As I say, you can just sit on 

730
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,960
the loo and and share a petition
link, but that's that's the 

731
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,360
basic stuff. 
Or you can, you know, become 

732
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,880
more involved and more invested 
in campaign or campaigns, but we

733
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,480
can all do something. 
So instead of moaning and finger

734
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,320
pointing and blaming or just not
doing anything at all, turn that

735
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:08,560
energy into something and and 
and feel empowered with the fact

736
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,840
that anyone can make a 
difference, even this idiot who 

737
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,960
had no background. 
But you can do it. 

738
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,040
If you don't think something is 
as you say it, they say it on 

739
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,320
the train platform, say it, see 
it, sort it. 

740
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,280
If you see something that's 
suspicious, do something about 

741
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,800
it. 
It's the same thing, but you 

742
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,160
have to do that thing. 
There's some great sort of 

743
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,800
inspirational quotes, the Gandhi
quote, you judge a nation on how

744
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,960
it treats it's animals. 
It's basically a metaphor for 

745
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,240
how a government treats it's 
most vulnerable. 

746
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,440
That's how I interpret it. 
And it's such a powerful quote 

747
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:46,520
and it's true. 
So when you see the two child 

748
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:52,280
cap or the old people who can't 
afford to, to heat their houses 

749
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,920
or disability cuts, it's, it's a
message to the country of, of 

750
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,640
how the vulnerable are being 
treated by the government. 

751
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,240
And that for me is the Gandhi 
quote. 

752
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,520
And that's why you have such 
uproar when whichever government

753
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,000
makes these decisions that it 
negatively impacts the most 

754
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,240
vulnerable because we're all 
feeling vulnerable in all 

755
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:14,280
different ways. 
Again, these are huge 

756
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,800
opportunities that are being 
missed to protect. 

757
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:21,320
The vulnerable to look after the
vulnerable to honour the 

758
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,240
vulnerable. 
And you think really when you 

759
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,760
watch the news, sometimes it's 
like sort of a proper eye roll. 

760
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,800
But politicians will do what 
they need to do and they suffer 

761
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,560
the consequences when they do 
something that isn't popular and

762
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,760
they don't get voted in. 
That's that's called a 

763
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,680
democracy. 
But it's very certainly they are

764
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,760
campaigners as well. 
Politicians, they're all, 

765
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,960
they're all campaigners. 
They all want to make positive 

766
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,320
change, some are better than 
others and some are definitely 

767
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,960
more empathetic than others. 
And some like animals more than 

768
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:56,240
people, some like people more 
than animals, most of them like 

769
00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:59,400
both. 
But again, as campaigners it's 

770
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,680
important to sort of corral them
into your campaigns. 

771
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,400
And so we have drop insurance in
Westminster where they come in 

772
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,040
and hold placards which are 
hugely popular because it's an 

773
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,200
opportunity for them to show 
that they actually care about 

774
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,240
animals or people or everything.
True, you said something about 

775
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,560
rallying the troops, herding, 
herding the people facing the 

776
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,320
same direction. 
But not everyone has access to 

777
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,280
celebrities on speed dial. 
So how? 

778
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,240
How does one how does a regular 
person get their attention? 

779
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,560
Yeah, I mean, I didn't have 
access to anyone. 

780
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:38,440
I remember one of my first ever 
locum jobs in hours a day, just 

781
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,920
emailing agents, emailing 
agents, managers. 

782
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:47,640
This is before Instagram, before
Twitter, kind of before any of 

783
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:48,960
that. 
Celebrities were still 

784
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,400
untouchable in that world, And 
I'm talking maybe 15 years ago. 

785
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:56,760
You'll get a bite at some point.
And no disrespect to 

786
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,840
celebrities, but the sort of the
lower down the list of how 

787
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,280
famous they are, are more likely
to have the time, let's say, to 

788
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,840
come to, to come to something or
organising. 

789
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,120
So celebrity judge dog show, for
example. 

790
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:13,320
And then you sort of you just 
build on that. 

791
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,280
You, you make a big fuss of them
and you fear of missing out 

792
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,640
again. 
And in the next year you 

793
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,240
approach others and say, well, 
last year these guys came, is 

794
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:22,720
there any chance you could come 
to this one? 

795
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,720
And you just build on that. 
And then, you know, you go to 

796
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,560
places where they're going to 
be, I don't mean like a stalker,

797
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,800
but you go to dog shows that are
like charity dog shows where 

798
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,320
they have celebrity supporters. 
And I think that's probably 

799
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,000
where I met Peter Egan the first
time. 

800
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,640
And you meet other people and 
they know other people. 

801
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,640
And if one celebrity is doing 
something, if you're missing 

802
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,760
out, the other celebrity friends
will probably want to do it too.

803
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,680
And it kind of builds and builds
and builds. 

804
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,720
And sometimes you can have a 
sympathetic PR company that has 

805
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:58,680
celebrity contacts and will help
pro bono and bring some 

806
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,120
themselves. 
We've never paid anyone to be 

807
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:07,400
anywhere because we believe that
kindness will sort of make them 

808
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,480
come rather than money. 
And it's built from there. 

809
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,280
I mean, I didn't know anyone. 
I think, I think you've just 

810
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,240
listed all of Raquel Dini's 
Principles for influence. 

811
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,880
I don't know if you've ever read
that book, but yeah, anyways, 

812
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,520
check it out if you want to do. 
Grassroots campaigning. 

813
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,120
You've just recently been to New
York and Philadelphia. 

814
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,160
I think it was. 
Please talk me through what 

815
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,320
happened. 
And yeah, just tell us a little 

816
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,720
bit more about Dogspiracy. 
I've obviously seen it. 

817
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,440
I would love to say that I loved
it. 

818
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,440
I love the creative aspect of 
it. 

819
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,560
But yeah, the message is quite 
powerful. 

820
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,600
So talk us through. 
Approached before lockdown by a 

821
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,760
production company and a 
director who wanted to make a 

822
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,120
show about dogs. 
Weirdly, it was about dogs in 

823
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,880
the royal family or something a 
bit weird, a bit niche. 

824
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,720
And they sent me the treatment, 
which is, as you know, it's a 

825
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,560
one page synopsis of the show. 
And at the time I was like a 

826
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,040
talking head, just like a little
contributor. 

827
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,200
And I just said, look, no 
disrespect, but we could make 

828
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,040
something really big here that 
can change the world for dogs 

829
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,240
rather than talk about dogs in 
royal families. 

830
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,360
And they said, what do you mean?
So I rewrote the treatment, put 

831
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,520
myself in as presenter because I
said, otherwise, I'm going to 

832
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,400
have to tell the presenter what 
to say. 

833
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,960
They're based in Prague. 
I came to Brighton, had a cup of

834
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,680
tea on the pier, beautiful sunny
day. 

835
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,640
I think that helped. 
And I said, look, I can get you 

836
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,800
all the access. 
I can get you parliamentarians 

837
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,800
here. 
I was already working with Grace

838
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,640
in Pennsylvania and her finding 
shelter, which she rescues dogs 

839
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,120
from the Amish puppy mills, 
rewrote the arcs. 

840
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:47,400
So campaigning, irresponsible 
breeding and selling of puppies 

841
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:53,400
and rescue, promoting rescue. 
And they were like, OK, right. 

842
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,680
So we call it dog spiritsy and 
got to work and then it was 

843
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,560
about five years in the making, 
two years filming. 

844
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,360
And now we'll have a movie that 
I'm I've presented and narrated 

845
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,920
and kind of Co produced, which 
is really exciting because it's 

846
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,960
about puppy mills. 
It's about responsible breeding 

847
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,000
and it's about promoting rescue 
and it's about how to campaign 

848
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,360
and how frustrating it is and 
what work still needs 

849
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,440
completing. 
One of them is Victoria's law, 

850
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,760
which is a ban of puppies sold 
in pet shops in in Pennsylvania,

851
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,920
which now after my visit to 
Harrisburg, which is the state 

852
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,720
capital of Pennsylvania, looks 
much more likely. 

853
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:30,840
Not just because of me, but the 
fear of the documentary coming 

854
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,080
out. 
It's not out there yet. 

855
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,280
Is is already making 
parliamentarian senators, state 

856
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,480
reps panic, a fear of 
humiliation. 

857
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,280
It's another good one with with 
MPs. 

858
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,000
So yeah, it's kind of doing its 
job because I wrote the the 

859
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:48,440
Victoria's Law Arkin 
specifically because after nine 

860
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,080
years of campaigning, 6, when we
started filming, there was just 

861
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,600
block after block after block as
an agriculture bill. 

862
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:59,640
And the fear of it coming out 
has now mean meant it's going to

863
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,680
be presented as a consumer 
protection bill. 

864
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,960
And when I was over there 
speaking in Parliament again, 

865
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,800
crazy a few weeks back, the tone
was very much different. 

866
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,360
It's felt like a when this will 
happen rather than if this will 

867
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,640
happen. 
So I think it will happen. 

868
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,880
And also when it comes out in 
the states, it could even 

869
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,600
inspire other states to follow. 
I think the six or seven that 

870
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,800
have got a pet store puppy ban. 
So I mean, bonkers really, but 

871
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:34,440
unbelievably grateful and just 
overwhelmed really where that 

872
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,800
one night seeing those puppies 
in my Brighton practise has 

873
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,120
ended up. 
And it, and it still feels like 

874
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:46,000
this is the beginning of much 
more stuff happening with both 

875
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:48,440
animals and humans. 
I mean, the up dog meetings, we 

876
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,520
have one a month now, they're 
packed. 

877
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,480
We have the most incredible 
speakers, loads more MPs come 

878
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,760
every time. 
And it feels like progress is 

879
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,600
being made every single meeting.
And it's all about progress. 

880
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:02,240
And if I hadn't called the book 
Be More Mosquito, which is 

881
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:04,640
basically a reference to the 
Dalai Lama quote, if you think 

882
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,040
you're too small to make a 
difference, try sleeping with a 

883
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,240
mosquito. 
I would probably call it pro or 

884
00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:12,120
making progress, because 
progress is what drives me and 

885
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,200
it drives all campaigners. 
And it means that things are 

886
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,280
getting better. 
And if and as I keep, I'm a 

887
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,320
broken record, but we can all 
play a part in making things 

888
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,520
better, making that curve 
faster, to curve towards 

889
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,800
justice. 
I mean, all the funny enough, 

890
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,880
all the quotes, they all kind of
say the same thing. 

891
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:38,400
It's basically inspiring you to 
get involved and to be a part of

892
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,280
the solution. 
That's it's crucial and, and and

893
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,960
you know, it's not a chore. 
It's a real fun and exciting 

894
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,080
thing to do and leads you to all
sorts of places and meet 

895
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,120
interesting people. 
Yeah. 

896
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:56,440
So yeah, blows my mind where 
we've come and all the people 

897
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,960
that I've met, but I know that 
there's still so much more that 

898
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,800
needs to be achieved. 
But at least when you've got 

899
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,680
this momentum and got 
parliamentarians and celebrities

900
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:11,160
kind of part of your army, you 
can look forward to a much 

901
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,360
brighter future for both humans 
and dogs. 

902
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,880
Yeah, and you'd know all these 
things because you didn't give 

903
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:17,440
up. 
Lucy's law took 10 years for 

904
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,800
legislation to to to change, 
right? 

905
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:25,400
So yeah, how how did you keep 
going internal drive your your 

906
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,920
wide like? 
Internal drive and and the fact 

907
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,560
that if you don't do it, then 
who else is going to do it? 

908
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:35,240
And also I always use this 
analogy that remember on shows 

909
00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:39,320
like Homeland or 24 and they 
used to burst into the criminals

910
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,040
backroom and on the on the wall 
was like post it notes and 

911
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,920
newspaper articles and string 
and pins and all that. 

912
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,360
That's the campaigners brain. 
You know, you can remember what 

913
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,000
someone said in parliament in 
the speech. 

914
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,080
You can remember the name of the
dog of account of a celebrity. 

915
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:55,520
It's all pieced together by 
strength. 

916
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,560
And when you've been doing it a 
while, there's no way you can 

917
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,280
ever explain that wall to anyone
else. 

918
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,640
So you can't give up because 
you've kind of got this mad 

919
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:09,840
crazy wall of, of stuff in your 
head, which you know can make a 

920
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,040
difference and, and will be part
of that solution. 

921
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,840
So you kind of, you've gone too 
far. 

922
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,920
You could give up, but I think 
anyone who cares enough is the 

923
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,800
last thing they'd even consider.
Yeah. 

924
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,960
And then my next, next project, 
which is going to be out in May,

925
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,720
is my 5th book, which is a 
children's picture book, which 

926
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:36,680
is an anti bullying, anti 
racism, inclusivity text. 

927
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,200
And it's called Leon's Reef. 
And funnily enough, I think it 

928
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,240
could be the thing that I'm most
proud of. 

929
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,800
It's just it's about symbiotic 
relationships on the reef and 

930
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,960
it's about looking different but
depending on each other for 

931
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,720
survival. 
So that comes out in May. 

932
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,160
It's being drawn at the moment. 
I've got an amazing publisher 

933
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,720
called Award Publications. 
I, I, I wrote it 17 years ago 

934
00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:57,760
and I pitched it to so many 
publishers. 

935
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,480
Everyone said no, because it 
rhymed and rhyming can't be 

936
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,800
translated. 
So essentially the text is 

937
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,080
useless. 
I locked down. 

938
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,960
I worked with a proper 
children's picture book editor, 

939
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,360
tightened it up, made it a lot 
more powerful publisher. 

940
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,600
So again, didn't give up. 
But I knew when it was rejected 

941
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,240
the first time just wasn't 
right. 

942
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,200
So it's a lot of this is about 
patience and waiting for the 

943
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,480
planets to align. 
Lucy's Law was a bit like that. 

944
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,880
Michael Gove, he wasn't 
Secretary of State for Defra, 

945
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,200
may not have passed it because 
he's a dog lover and a cat lover

946
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,000
who you've, that's another 
thing. 

947
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,360
You've just got to keep going 
and believe that at some point 

948
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,440
it will happen because it will 
if it's if it's the right thing 

949
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,160
to do, it will happen. 
And also the more you're in 

950
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,720
Westminster, for example, the 
more you're seen, the more 

951
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:50,800
people take you seriously. 
And I remember going in nearly 

952
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,320
every day at some point and 
people like you'll hear more 

953
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,880
than the MPs or the you know, 
and it's like that level of 

954
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,880
commitment to be visible. 
Visible helps because I live in 

955
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:02,360
Brighton and it's only an hour 
way. 

956
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,480
But to be visibly seen to be 
attending and in meetings and 

957
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,400
really working hard and having a
really simple solution to work 

958
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,880
towards. 
It's able to be fulfilled by 

959
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:13,880
legislation without trying to 
say the word. 

960
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,800
That keeps stripping me out. 
And it's relatively inexpensive,

961
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,680
if not free, people go, OK, we 
can do that. 

962
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,200
And it makes us look good too as
a government. 

963
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,680
The other thing is everything's 
two way. 

964
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,280
Everything's two way. 
We need their help, but our our 

965
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,320
help benefits their brand. 
Their image and branding is 

966
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,960
everything as you know, 
especially these days with an 

967
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,200
attention span of less than one 
second for most people. 

968
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,600
Branding, how you, you know, 
this whole obviously, but how we

969
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:47,320
communicate with the world, 
often people don't give it more 

970
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,800
than a second. 
And if you're a kind, 

971
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,840
compassionate, empathetic brand 
that's recognisable that 

972
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:55,520
quickly, you'll probably be all 
right. 

973
00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:57,640
Going back to reading through 
the brand books. 

974
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:03,120
Logos, absolutely fascinating 
how 1 logo can trigger a certain

975
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,920
emotional reaction. 
And obviously a successful brand

976
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,920
triggers a much more +1. 
So yeah, there's a lot going on.

977
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,760
I guess what underpins 
everything is just kindness to 

978
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,440
everything and everyone, but 
also that any, anything is 

979
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,240
possible. 
And if an idiot like this can 

980
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:22,960
change laws and can work with 
Ricky Gervais and can get a 

981
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,280
medal from the king, then anyone
can do anything. 

982
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,680
And I look forward to watching 
everyone now either hiding in a 

983
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,040
cave or going out there and, and
literally just trying to do 

984
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:34,920
stuff. 
And that's what it's all about, 

985
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,360
caring enough to want to try and
do stuff. 

986
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,920
Just do it. 
I think you'll be pleasantly 

987
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,640
surprised a how many other 
people are thinking the same 

988
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,280
thing. 
And social media is great for 

989
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,040
that, to find out whether it's 
in this country or your town or 

990
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,880
a different country, how many 
people are doing what you want 

991
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:51,640
to do. 
And everyone's usually quite 

992
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,120
collaborative and, and 
respectful, a bit like the dead 

993
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,080
parent club. 
Everyone wants to help because 

994
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,880
you've got a common cause, 
common thing that links you, 

995
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:04,520
common brand if you like. 
But yeah, change is out there 

996
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,360
and it's for the taking and the 
whole world benefits. 

997
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,640
And I think in a world of such 
polarised views and opinions and

998
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:20,840
a lot of nastiness, why not try 
to establish some beacon of 

999
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:29,240
hope, of positivity and of of 
improved life for animals, 

1000
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,880
humans, the environment, 
anything, Perfectly everything. 

1001
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:36,640
Leave the world better than you 
found it that. 

1002
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,240
Exactly how would you? 
Well, you're doing a great job 

1003
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,240
at that. 
Thank you so much, Mark. 

1004
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:44,680
Trying. 
I'm very pleased to be a small 

1005
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,680
part said earlier. 
If you can help, why wouldn't 

1006
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:49,240
you help? 
So yeah, just get on with it. 

1007
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:51,160
It's fine. 
Get on with it. 

1008
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:52,600
Good. 
All right, Well, I'll let you go

1009
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,160
because I know that the room. 
I'm going to be, I'm going to be

1010
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,000
kicked out by one of my nurses 
in a SEC. 

1011
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,120
Yeah, I love, I've loved talking
to you. 

1012
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,360
Thanks for inviting me on. 
And maybe we can have a catch up

1013
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,640
in the new year. 
And when your when your book 

1014
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,760
becomes available, I'll be your 
first. 

1015
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:09,360
Oh, bless you. 
Yeah. 

1016
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,520
I mean, I was terribly at 
English at school, written five 

1017
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,000
books now. 
Amazing. 

1018
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,760
Yeah. 
So yeah, just get on with it and

1019
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,440
do it and surprise yourself. 
Thank you so much, Mark. 

1020
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:20,760
Have a good. 
One, take care. 

1021
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:21,400
Bye bye.