1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,800
I'd gotten used to training 
these larger already or foster 

2
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dogs. 
And so the types of techniques I

3
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was using, using prong collars 
and corrections, most of the 

4
00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,080
dogs were like, OK, I get it. 
And it seemed to work out well 

5
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,080
for me most of the time. 
But then I, I remember this one 

6
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foster dog, Ernie was his name. 
He was a Beagle. 

7
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,600
And you know, it's my first 
Beagle to Foster and I'm 

8
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:21,920
thinking, all right, so the same
thing is going to work. 

9
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This dog's pulling here. 
I'm like, you can't sniff 

10
00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,160
because I don't know, I read 
that in a book somewhere or 

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something. 
I was like, all right, I've got 

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00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,360
to solve this issue of pulling 
because you know it to be better

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00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,080
adoption candidate, he should 
learn how to walk nicely 

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unleashed. 
And so I put a prong collar on 

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him. 
I go outside and I gave him one 

16
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correction and he let out the 
most horrific Beagle scream, 

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00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,320
just clearly telling me that 
this that was an awful thing to 

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do. 
And that moment just clicked 

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something in my brain that just 
said, OK, something is not right

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with what I'm doing, even though
it had, I've been so heavily 

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00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,040
reinforced myself in the past 
for doing that. 

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I said, well, I can change any 
dog that's a pollen leash. 

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It's easy. 
I've done it a million times 

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with a bunch of different dogs. 
But you know, it was that that 

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moment that shifted me thinking,
there's got to be another way, 

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even if it might be harder at 
first for me to learn. 

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I've got to figure out a 
different way because because 

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Barney was just like, dude, 
that's not cool. 

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And I said you're right. 
I have a theory that everything 

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we believe about dogs, we learn 
from someone who was also just 

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guessing. 
Think about it. 

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00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,160
The trainer who told us to be 
the alpha. 

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00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:28,440
The uncle who says dogs need to 
know their place. 

34
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The TV trainer who advocates for
lead corrections. 

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The Instagram that made us feel 
like we were doing it all wrong.

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None of these people handed us a
disclaimer and none of them 

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said, well, actually, I'm not 
entirely sure about this. 

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00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,320
They just said it with 
confidence and we filed it away 

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00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,600
and then we lived by it. 
My guest today calls this a life

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algorithm, the loop of ideas we 
end up living by without ever 

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00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,040
really consciously choosing 
them. 

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And if we're inside a loop like 
that, our dogs are in there with

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00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,360
us. 
They don't choose any of it, yet

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00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,560
their whole life is shaped by 
what we believe about them. 

45
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,720
Michael Chicaccio has been 
working with dogs who show 

46
00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,960
aggression for over 25 years. 
He founded aggressivedog.com, 

47
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,800
and he teaches other 
professionals around the world 

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00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,120
how to work aggression cases. 
He's been president of the 

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00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,520
International Association of 
Animal Behaviour Consultants for

50
00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,480
five terms, and in 2020, 
Association of Professional Dog 

51
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,080
Trainers named him their Member 
of the Year. 

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00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,960
When outlets like New York 
Times, the New York Post and USA

53
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,160
TODAY need someone on dog 
aggression, they call Michael. 

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00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,840
This episode is about 
aggression, but it's really 

55
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,800
about what our dogs absorb from 
our anxiety, our certainty, our 

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00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,400
inherited nonsense without ever 
being asked. 

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00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,720
They've been living by our 
beliefs their entire lives and 

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00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,000
they never got a vote on it. 
I'm Nadine and this is just a 

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00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,960
dog podcast. 
Let's begin. 

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00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:02,880
Hello. 
Hi, Mai. 

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00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,880
How are you? 
I'm very well, thanks. 

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00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:05,960
How are you? 
Doing well. 

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00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,080
Doing well. 
I would love to know more of 

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your first introduction into 
life with dogs and how that led 

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00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,160
to you working with dogs later 
on in life. 

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My parents had brought home a 
couple dogs. 

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We had one, the first dog named 
Happy and they had that 

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lifestyle. 
The dog was not allowed in the 

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house. 
So that kind of cultural aspect 

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and happy ran away when I was a 
child. 

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So that was my first experience 
and at least that's what they 

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told me. 
And then the second dog we had 

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Sarge looked just like Lassie, 
if you know that show Lassie and

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00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,600
and the the collie and he was 
sort of indoor outdoor, but kind

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of relegated to the to the 
basement first floor area wasn't

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allowed in the upstairs. 
So that was my experience around

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00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,280
animals. 
I had some hamsters when I 

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started to get into my preteens.
It's like begging my parents 

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00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,000
with let me just get a pet 
hamster because I wanted my own 

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00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,800
pets. 
That was a good and bad idea 

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00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,800
because I loved hamsters. 
But then I got a male and a 

82
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,560
female hamster and you know what
happens? 

83
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,520
Then it just exploded into this 
population of I had like 20 

84
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,280
hamsters. 
It's just I was like, all right,

85
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,480
I've got to separate the boys 
from the girls now because this 

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00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,240
is a bad idea. 
So I had hamsters and rabbits 

87
00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,920
and couple of Guinea pigs to my 
teenage years, but that was my 

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00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,240
kind of, that was as much 
exposure as I had to animals and

89
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,920
a very old school sort of 
traditional upbringing around 

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00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,000
animal. 
So it wasn't really building a 

91
00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,800
connection with dogs until 
probably my late 20s when I 

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00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,080
started fostering dogs. 
So my ex-wife at the time and 

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00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,800
myself, we, we were taking in 
lots of foster dogs and 

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00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,600
volunteering from rescues. 
And that's when I really caught 

95
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,840
the sort of training and 
behaviour bug and took a real 

96
00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:52,920
deep dive into helping dogs. 
Because one of the things I 

97
00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,320
found was that a lot of these 
dogs were given up on, so 

98
00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,440
surrendered to rescue or 
shelters because of behaviour 

99
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,080
issues. 
And one of the number one things

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00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,520
that you saw as a behaviour 
issue was aggression. 

101
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,760
So lower levels all the way up 
to higher levels of aggression. 

102
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,760
And I thought, what better way 
to help these dogs, you know, in

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00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,280
addition to fostering them to 
start to learn how to do the 

104
00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:19,080
training and helping them along 
the way with the issues they're 

105
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,120
having. 
So I took a deep dive into 

106
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,920
training and into working with 
aggression. 

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00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,480
And one thing led to another. 
And here I am today just, you 

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know, strictly focusing on 
helping dogs with aggression and

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00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,440
their people all around the 
world. 

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And I and I'm I'm really 
fortunate and where things have 

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00:05:34,280 --> 00:05:36,160
turned. 
But if you asked me when I was 

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00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,640
10 or 12 years old, what are you
going to do when you get older, 

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00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:42,080
I would have never, ever thought
this at all. 

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00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,400
It was the doctor or an engineer
or a computer scientist, you 

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00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:46,720
know, like Asian parents want 
you to be. 

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00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,480
And that's totally what my path 
was supposed to be totally 

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different now. 
So. 

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00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,280
So that's a little bit about my 
background. 

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00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:57,080
So aggression, gosh, it's such a
huge topic because it could be 

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00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,200
interpreted in so many different
ways. 

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00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,040
What do you think regular dog 
guardians or dog lovers tend to 

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00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,640
misunderstand about aggression 
in dogs? 

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00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,000
It's, you know, it's interesting
because a lot of people will 

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think it's abnormal behaviour or
it's bad behaviour or there's 

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00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:16,280
something wrong or there's 
something wired wrong with the 

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00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:19,400
dog or how dare they do that to 
me or how dare they bite the 

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00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,880
hand that feeds them kind of. 
And so that's one of the biggest

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misconceptions because 
aggression is normal behaviour. 

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It's undesirable, right? 
We don't want to get bitten and 

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00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,720
certainly don't want for our 
friends or family to get bitten.

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But it's normal behaviour 
because when you look at humans,

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we use aggression all the time 
to get a threat away or if we're

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fearful of something or if we're
in pain or distress. 

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We do it all the time and we do 
it at a much higher degree and 

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higher frequency than dogs do. 
I think dogs are really, really 

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good at not going to regression.
We think about the number of 

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00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,520
dogs on the planet versus the 
number of dog bites that happen 

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00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,400
or the aggressive incidents you 
hear about. 

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00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,280
It is a much smaller percentage 
than if you look at the amount 

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00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:08,400
of aggression, AKA violence in 
humans. 

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00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,480
So that's often very 
misunderstood. 

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And that's the that's the 
concept I try to have clients as

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well as the general public 
understand is that, you know, 

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let's look at not the behaviour.
Sure, we don't like biting, but 

145
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,000
when we start thinking about why
the dogs are biting or having 

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00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,280
these these issues, then we can 
start to understand and 

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00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,200
empathise with where they're 
coming from. 

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00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,800
And I find that's also a nice 
practise to do with humans, 

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00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,200
right when we start to get to 
the cause of the behaviour. 

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00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:40,720
You know, why is this person 
yelling at me? 

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00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,080
Why is this person criticising 
me online? 

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00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,640
Why is this person behaving this
way towards me? 

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00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,800
It's easy to say. 
It's easy to take offence to it,

154
00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,000
right? 
But when we dig deeper and we 

155
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,160
look at the cause, the root 
cause, the emotions, the pain, 

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00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,160
the distress, the trauma, all 
those things are exactly the 

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00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:59,600
same in people as they are in 
dogs. 

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00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,320
There's a cause for those things
and that can really help us when

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00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,000
we want to help the dogs or help
people, right? 

160
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,880
I believe there's a the 
connection between perhaps 

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00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,840
childhood triggers, how we 
respond to uncertainty with dogs

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00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,720
specifically because they cannot
communicate and say I broke my 

163
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,720
rib and I'm in a lot of pain or 
whatever. 

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00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,200
Like we tended to take things 
personally. 

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00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,640
So if a dog is misbehaving, 
misbehaving, communicating, that

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00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,400
could be a knee jerk response as
in you're being spiteful or 

167
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,400
being a bad dog or whatever. 
What do you see in your 

168
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,280
experience happening? 
Yeah. 

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00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,159
That's very common because as 
humans we like to label things. 

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00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,160
So the dog is stubborn, the dog 
is dominant, the dog is willful,

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00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,760
the dog is spiteful. 
But those are all labels that 

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00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,160
really don't tell us what's 
going on inside the dog. 

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00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,280
That's our interpretation of 
their behaviour. 

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00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,560
And let's and let's face it, a 
dogs don't experience the 

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00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:59,800
multitude of in depth emotions 
as humans do. 

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00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,840
You know, dogs experience the 
primary basic emotions for sure,

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00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:08,000
fear, anger, rage, panic, grief,
those kind of the, the basic 

178
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,320
core emotions. 
But they, the jury's still out 

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00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,440
on if they experience some of 
these other labels that people, 

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00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:17,760
you know, they should know 
better or they look guilty. 

181
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,240
Those are very common ones. 
And you know the dog, let's use 

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00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,000
that label. 
You know, the dog looks guilty 

183
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,440
or the dog was guilty. 
They knew they weren't supposed 

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00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,320
to be in the trash or jump up on
the counter or something like 

185
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,320
that. 
But when we look deeper, we 

186
00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,440
start to realise that dogs, 
actually, they don't. 

187
00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:38,240
They don't say, oh, I'm not 
supposed to be in this garbage, 

188
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:39,320
right. 
They're not, You know, that's a,

189
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,240
that's something us humans don't
want us to do. 

190
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,400
But the dog's just looking at 
that garbage can like this is a 

191
00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,960
wonderful place to get some 
leftover treats. 

192
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:47,920
Yeah. 
And. 

193
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,400
And then so the client or the 
person gets home from work and 

194
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,400
they see the trash all over the 
place and they get upset at 

195
00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,040
their dog. 
And the dog gives them sort of 

196
00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,120
what they call a guilty look. 
They put the ears down. 

197
00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,000
They kind of lower their head, 
they move away and it to the 

198
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,560
human, it's, it looks like maybe
guilt to them, but it's actually

199
00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:10,680
the dog simply responding to in 
a facial expression or body 

200
00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:14,920
language or tone of voice that 
they've experienced in the past 

201
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,080
that predicted a negative 
outcome for them. 

202
00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,600
So they got yelled at by their 
guardian or they got punished by

203
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,680
their guardian. 
They're saying in their mind, 

204
00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:26,680
oh, here we go again. 
They're going to do that thing 

205
00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:28,960
to me that they did last time. 
They don't know it's because 

206
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,240
they got in the garbage three 
hours earlier, right? 

207
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,440
They have no way of knowing that
because we can't even 

208
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,840
communicate to that. 
What are we going to do to tell 

209
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,560
them, you know, hey, it's 
because you got the garbage 

210
00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:39,320
three hours earlier. 
No, not at all. 

211
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,160
So so to get back to your 
question, yes, I think there's a

212
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,360
lot of misunderstanding around 
what so that they call that 

213
00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,600
anthropomorphism, right? 
So assigning human 

214
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,360
characteristics to dog yes. 
And there's some truth to that. 

215
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,760
I don't like to throw the baby 
out with the bath. 

216
00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,120
What I do think we should do 
some of that thinking around 

217
00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,800
what dogs might experience 
similar to humans, but then we 

218
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,640
also have to do the other side 
and say what dogs may not 

219
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,800
experience even though we want 
to think they experienced that 

220
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,520
because we're humans. 
But a lot of times it's an 

221
00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,720
incorrect label, which then can 
impact the relationship between 

222
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,240
the dog and the human because 
the dogs just confused. 

223
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,560
Like, why are you yelling at me?
I don't get it. 

224
00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:17,240
You just got home from work. 
I'm excited to see you, but 

225
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:18,840
you're yelling at me and they 
don't know it's about the 

226
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,400
garbage, right? 
So yeah. 

227
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,240
I did a bit of yoga training a 
while back and I remember one of

228
00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,840
the one of the instructors 
saying that tension exists where

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00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,560
there's a miscommunication. 
And that stuck with me 

230
00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:32,880
throughout time. 
Whenever there was any kind of 

231
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,880
tension, there was always going 
to be a miscommunication of some

232
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:37,640
sort. 
And I think that happens quite 

233
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,880
often with animals because 
unless you have that skill or 

234
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,280
that education, it's hard to get
through to them and for them to 

235
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,240
get to through to you. 
And so there's that sticky spot 

236
00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,400
where you're a little bit like, 
I don't know, I don't know, I 

237
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:51,880
don't know what you're saying. 
I don't know what I'm I'm 

238
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,320
saying. 
I don't know how to get through 

239
00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:54,320
to you. 
I don't know how to get the 

240
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,000
desired result. 
Frustration. 

241
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,760
Frustration, you know? 
There's so much truth to that, 

242
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,240
Nadine. 
It's just miscommunication. 

243
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,280
Misunderstanding is something we
see all the time when we see 

244
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,600
tension and conflict and stress,
because it's sort of the 

245
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,000
definition of anxiety when you 
think about is not knowing what 

246
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,040
the potential outcome in a 
situation could be. 

247
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,240
So think about that dynamic as 
well. 

248
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,800
And you just look at it 
everywhere around us right now 

249
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,040
in this day and age, right? 
And social media, and certainly 

250
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,560
with the communication between 
people and animals, when there's

251
00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:27,520
a miscommunication, that's going
to bring on the 

252
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,520
unpredictability, that's going 
to bring on the unknown, the 

253
00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,560
uncertainty. 
And especially if there's a 

254
00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:37,240
history of punishment or 
conflict or other bad things 

255
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,680
happening, when you're feeling 
in that same state of 

256
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,760
miscommunication or 
misinterpretation, then that's 

257
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:45,920
often in my work. 
When you start to see the 

258
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,480
aggressive responses, just like 
we see it in people, they get 

259
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:49,720
frustrated. 
You don't know what you're 

260
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,400
saying, fists come out and 
keyboards start getting hit 

261
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,920
harder, right? 
And it's because of the 

262
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:56,440
miscommunication, 
misunderstanding. 

263
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,120
So that's what I try to impart 
with my clients is really 

264
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,720
helping them understand why 
their dog is displaying that 

265
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,920
aggressive behaviour. 
And again, you do the same thing

266
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,280
with humans, you know, you come 
from a place of understanding. 

267
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,400
Then tensions low or stress 
lowers, predictability 

268
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,520
increases, understanding 
increases, empathy increases. 

269
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,280
So yeah, it's a lot of what I've
been focusing on and especially 

270
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,760
in the last decade with working 
with clients is just getting 

271
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,760
them to understand because once 
they do that they can empathise 

272
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,920
with the situation. 
When you first made that 

273
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,400
transition from fostering to 
becoming a trainer, did you have

274
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,240
any preconceived ideas about 
dogs that were surprising that 

275
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,120
you had to change or adapt on? 
Oh yeah, definitely. 

276
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,000
It's funny because those, I 
don't know if you remember the 

277
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,680
old days of Yahoo. 
Yahoo Groups, like it was sort 

278
00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:42,720
of like the Facebook of today 
and after Yahoo Groups came like

279
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,200
Myspace. 
And so I'm sort of dating myself

280
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:45,800
here. 
But yeah. 

281
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,160
But back then it was a lot of 
discussion boards. 

282
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,280
And I would, I would love to be 
able to get access to some of 

283
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,320
the old posts I put up because 
it would be a good laugh because

284
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:55,760
I didn't know what I was talking
about. 

285
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,320
It's so many misconceptions. 
But because in the dog training 

286
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,800
world back then, there's so much
misinformation and 

287
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,680
misunderstanding and very little
science behind things. 

288
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:09,000
Thing was, things were just kind
of passed down from generation 

289
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,200
to generation or trainer to 
trainer, and it was very little 

290
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,000
was rooted in science or ethics 
or understanding. 

291
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,120
So, you know, things like being 
the alpha. 

292
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,400
And so I do giggle a little bit 
about what I used to think 

293
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,920
versus what I know now. 
But there really was a lot of 

294
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,520
information back then. 
It's much better nowadays. 

295
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,400
But still we have a long way to 
go. 

296
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,920
But yeah, definitely the the 
concepts of like, you have to be

297
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,520
the boss, you have to be 
dominant. 

298
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,280
Dogs need a pack leader and 
these kind of misconceptions 

299
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,480
that are out there. 
It basically passed on from just

300
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:45,280
a few trainers and it just kind 
of exploded and somewhat you see

301
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,560
it still people talking like 
that these days. 

302
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,400
But I do think we've made a lot 
of progress in that regard about

303
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,640
getting the education. 
And I that's sort of the silver 

304
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,240
lining of social medias that in 
their information ages, that 

305
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,880
information does get out there 
much faster. 

306
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,280
You know, and I see like these 
young kids, they're in their 20s

307
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,720
and really talented trainers, 
very knowledgeable at a level 

308
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,160
that would have taken me years 
and years to learn what they 

309
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,560
know now. 
But so there is some sort of 

310
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,840
nice things that have come out 
of where we are today. 

311
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,120
But yeah, back then I said, I 
said a lot of silly things, did 

312
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,840
a lot of silly things. 
But you know, we live and learn.

313
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,400
I was speaking to my friend 
Jenna earlier and I was asking 

314
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,480
her what I could ask you because
she works with the public quite 

315
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,000
often and so she she gets 
mirrored back some of the ideas 

316
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,120
or perceptions, especially when 
it comes to rehoming dogs or 

317
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,760
aggressive dogs. 
And umm, a lot of people read 

318
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,520
aggression not as data but as 
dominance. 

319
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,480
Would you mind explaining where 
that came from and what 

320
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,720
specifically was inaccurate 
about it? 

321
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:50,920
Yeah. 
So, so dominance comes from 

322
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,480
ethology. 
So it is sometimes some I'm 

323
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,200
trying to like there's no such 
thing as dominance, but that's 

324
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,920
not true there. 
Dominance does exist between 

325
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,400
dogs, between other species, 
between in some birds. 

326
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,440
And so it is a thing. 
And that the definition 

327
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,920
typically is priority access to 
a resource. 

328
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,000
So one animal will use behaviour
directed at other another animal

329
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,640
to get access to something. 
And people do it all the time. 

330
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,440
It could be a couple guys at the
bar and they both want a seat at

331
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:20,960
the bar and they kind of look at
each other. 

332
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,080
So nobody's punching, nobody's 
pulling out a gun or a knife. 

333
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,520
They just kind of give each one 
guy gives the other look and 

334
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,360
he's like, that's my chair. 
And the other guy's like, OK, 

335
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,120
you could define that as a 
dominant behaviour. 

336
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,720
But what their misconception 
comes into is that when we start

337
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,800
to label a human or a dog or any
other animal as a dominant 

338
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,600
animal, a dominant dog, dominant
human, they're not always going 

339
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,920
to be like that. 
It's in the moment, it's in the 

340
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,960
context. 
So that guy at the bar could 

341
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,640
say, that's my seat there, but 
then they go outside and they're

342
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,600
like, oh, that's my car there. 
So it, it's fluid. 

343
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,320
It changes depending on the 
context and the situation. 

344
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,880
So it's basically behaviour used
to get access to something like 

345
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,600
a resource. 
So where it became problematic 

346
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,800
though, and by the way, this a 
lot of was, was derived from the

347
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,000
studies of captive wolves. 
And you had the alpha wolf and, 

348
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,520
and, and they said, oh, that 
alpha wolf's in charge. 

349
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,960
But that really got pulled into 
the dog training world in a sort

350
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,560
of a erroneous way because it 
meant you must punish the lower 

351
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,960
ranking members. 
You must punish the dog. 

352
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,599
You must use force or other 
corrections to get this dog in 

353
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:28,560
line because you should be the 
alpha. 

354
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,320
You should be the dominant one. 
But when you look at when 

355
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,880
dominance is used, they actually
aren't using any kind of 

356
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:35,680
aggressive responses or any kind
of punishment. 

357
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,360
It's more communication between 
both animals. 

358
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:40,920
So what happened was that people
started to use punishment like, 

359
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,280
oh, I have to use force and 
corrections and pin the dog down

360
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,920
on their back and know all these
things that can actually 

361
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,840
increase aggression because I 
know if I'm getting pushed 

362
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,920
around and kicked and punched 
all the time, I'm going to 

363
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,560
become aggressive at some point,
you know, to defend myself. 

364
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,240
And so that started to get drawn
into to dog training in the dog 

365
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,360
training world. 
Then like you have to do this or

366
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,080
this or this to get the dog to 
submit because you are the 

367
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,440
alpha. 
And we know of course, that the 

368
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,840
potential risk of doing that 
because it can increase 

369
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,240
aggression in many cases doesn't
always, but it can. 

370
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,280
And it's something that's a high
risk to try to do for me. 

371
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:21,040
Of course, I'm working on using 
reinforcement and teaching the 

372
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,160
dog what I want to do instead 
and forming a relationship with 

373
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,840
the dog that's built on trust 
and not punishment. 

374
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,360
And, and that's where much of 
modern training has gone today. 

375
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:34,040
And that's that's important 
because some folks still follow 

376
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,040
that dominance or alpha model, 
which is unfortunate for the 

377
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:42,000
dogs that experience that. 
I recently started fostering 

378
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,760
Doona. 
She's a gal gut and she's seven 

379
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,120
years old. 
Amazing dog, super gentle, 0 

380
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:51,520
issues whatsoever, obviously 
separation anxiety and a whole 

381
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,240
host of other bits and bobs. 
But when when I first got hurt 

382
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,760
there was an expectation that 
she needs to fit into my world, 

383
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,080
that she needs to adapt. 
I need to train her and show her

384
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,200
the lay of the land. 
And thankfully I had really 

385
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,680
amazing people around me in the 
rescue space who were like, no, 

386
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,960
she doesn't need training, she 
needs safety, she needs a space 

387
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,440
to decompress, She needs someone
who is calm and kind and 

388
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,520
understanding to create that 
environment for her. 

389
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,000
It's not like people would just 
go out of their way to go and 

390
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,960
learn about dogs if they don't 
have them. 

391
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,640
But the experience was extremely
eye opening for me. 

392
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,320
And I realised there was still a
long way to go seeing how people

393
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,640
understood and treated dogs, 
which was the most surprising 

394
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,520
thing for me about fostering. 
Yeah, this. 

395
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,120
And there's a lot of 
unfortunately, yeah, I wouldn't 

396
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:44,320
call them myths, but misnomers 
in in that sense because every 

397
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:46,520
dog's going to be different. 
And some dogs, as we know, they 

398
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,680
come right in. 
I felt I foster some dogs and 

399
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,000
they're like, and they just go 
pick a corner of couch to lay on

400
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,360
and it's totally fine. 
And some dogs need time to 

401
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:55,760
adapt. 
And so there's different 

402
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,920
suggestions out there. 
One is called like the 333 roll,

403
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,760
3 days, three weeks, three 
months. 

404
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,480
And in terms of the dog settling
in, which, you know, isn't a bad

405
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,320
guideline, but each dog's going 
to be different. 

406
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,440
So we have to be flexible. 
And that, you know, analogy I 

407
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,640
use all the time is that when we
have a dog coming into a home, 

408
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,400
it's just like a person moving 
to another country. 

409
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,920
So if, if they move from one 
town in their country to the 

410
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:21,680
next, it's not going to be that 
different. 

411
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,800
But many times in rescue and 
foster, the dogs are coming to a

412
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,880
significantly different 
environment. 

413
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,720
And and that's happening much 
more so these days when we have 

414
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,960
dogs coming from well in Europe 
and in your area also UK, it's 

415
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,400
there's dogs, I'm sure coming 
from Spain and the Middle East 

416
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,160
and some of those countries, 
Cyprus. 

417
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,960
And so different areas in this 
in the US, we have a lot of dogs

418
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,440
coming up from the South. 
So more rural areas up into New 

419
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,080
York City or Boston or some of 
these big cities. 

420
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,640
And when you think about it, 
when you're a dog in all of your

421
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,800
life experience in that first 
six months or a year, 2 years, 

422
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,200
however old the foster dog is, 
has been in that environment. 

423
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,000
They know that rural area where 
there's lots of frogs or there's

424
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,400
lots of trees of a certain kind,
there's lots of open space. 

425
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,920
And suddenly in the name of 
rescue, they somebody gets the 

426
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,360
dog, puts them in a shelter for 
a few days because they have to 

427
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,640
get their shots and all that and
checked out. 

428
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,720
And then they get put on a 
transport and they get shipped 

429
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,520
up, you know, 1000 miles north, 
scary long ride. 

430
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,680
And then they get somebody 
comes, picks them up in a 

431
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,640
parking lot and then go to 
apartment in New York City. 

432
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,960
That's a one bedroom or 
two-bedroom, maybe it's a studio

433
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,080
apartment with all these loud 
noises and tall buildings and 

434
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,720
people everywhere and dogs and 
garbage trucks and everything. 

435
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,480
Think about how much of A change
that is. 

436
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,360
It's just like if a person has 
never travelled their whole life

437
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,080
and they've just spent their 
whole entire, up until their 

438
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,920
teenage years and a farm with a 
couple ducks and chickens and 

439
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,760
cows or something like that. 
They've never seen a building. 

440
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,680
They've never heard a bus. 
They've never seen that. 

441
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,640
And we take them and we put them
in Tokyo or something. 

442
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,240
It is this profoundly different 
experience. 

443
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,760
So that kind of dog or person is
going to need much more time to 

444
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,240
acclimate. 
They're going to need to learn 

445
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,920
what is this sound? 
What does that letter mean? 

446
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:06,400
What does this, you know, bus 
do? 

447
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,080
What is that loud motorcycle 
thing? 

448
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:10,920
And so when we're adapting dogs 
to environments, especially 

449
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,200
foster dogs, they just, some can
take time and they need times. 

450
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,120
And that's why I always like to 
remain flexible because some 

451
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:19,800
dogs need us quiet, safe space 
in the home, right? 

452
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,800
Just like this is my little 
corner with my little X pen 

453
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,120
around it, my soft comfy bed and
my toys and treats. 

454
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:27,600
And I'm going to stay here for a
few days until I can hear things

455
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,360
and just feel safer. 
And then some dogs need much 

456
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:35,040
more Open Access because 
suddenly it's like they've been 

457
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,560
snatched from some area and put 
in like a little gaol cell and 

458
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,520
somebody's home, right? 
Because somebody's told them all

459
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,960
they need a confined space 
creating and all those things. 

460
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,600
So it's always, it always boils 
down to ask the dog, you know, 

461
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,840
what are you looking for? 
Do you want to go for these long

462
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,320
hot hikes now or do you need 
some time? 

463
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:55,320
And of course that takes a 
little experience being able to 

464
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:56,960
read dog body language and 
behaviour. 

465
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,080
But the dogs can always tell you
what they want. 

466
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,680
And you if you go out there 
pace, that's going to build a 

467
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,600
lot more safety, a lot more 
trust, trust in the 

468
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,560
relationship. 
I did want to mention that 

469
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,000
because, you know, if anybody's 
fostering, there's no hard set 

470
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,520
rule. 
You have to do XY or Z in any 

471
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,120
cent order. 
It's the dog's always going to 

472
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:16,960
tell you what they need. 
I've learned that some of the 

473
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,840
ideas that the people that I 
have come across that they have,

474
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,600
they've learned from TV 
trainers, they've learned from 

475
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,400
people with very large 
followings on social media. 

476
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,080
I'd never heard of someone 
called Dog Daddy before. 

477
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,480
And so someone said, oh, you 
need to go on there and check, 

478
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,120
He says to XYZ. 
And so I did. 

479
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:39,720
And I was, I was, I was like, 
oh, this does not make me feel 

480
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,080
good. 
Even if someone with a million 

481
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,320
followers with all the 
credentials in the world says, 

482
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,600
you know, push your dog off a 
Cliff, does that feel, does that

483
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,080
feel? 
And so I try and tune into if 

484
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,760
that feels right to me. 
And that helps me decide 

485
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,760
ultimately. 
That's such a good point, 

486
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,840
because I think that's a good 
way. 

487
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,560
It's a good safeguard when it 
comes to what kind of 

488
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:07,280
information you're going to use 
in your daily routine or life, 

489
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,960
because that's the design of 
social media much of the time is

490
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,480
to provide these before and 
after like, wow, that's amazing.

491
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,880
Or especially with somebody like
the dog daddy, you know, it's a 

492
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,200
man versus beasts and that's 
like look at him handle these 

493
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,200
vicious dogs and and it can look
great on camera because you see 

494
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,280
this before and after sort of. 
But if you're not aware of what 

495
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,120
dog body language for dogs 
communicating through body 

496
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:34,280
language or not, maybe not 
familiar with dog behaviour, 

497
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,280
it's it's kind of look great. 
But when you start to look at 

498
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,680
the dog body language and you 
start to, to then layer that in 

499
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,680
with what you're just saying 
your, your principles and your 

500
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,840
ethics. 
That's an important lens to look

501
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,160
through with any, anything right
with when it comes to diet or 

502
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,160
exercise or all these other 
gurus we see on social media, we

503
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,360
should always question ourselves
like, is this, does this align 

504
00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:59,720
with my principles, my ethics? 
Does it make sense? 

505
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,840
You know, it looks great, but 
you know that before and after 

506
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,960
weight loss or that, you know, 
is it healthy to do that? 

507
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,040
Is it safe for that person? 
Is it going to be safe for me? 

508
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,160
And so I think things that they 
should teach kids in school 

509
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,600
these days, right? 
How do you safeguards and how do

510
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,920
you use critical thought? 
Really, it's it's a 

511
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,080
unfortunately starting to become
a lost heart. 

512
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,840
Yeah, yeah. 
When it comes to dogs, putting 

513
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,400
dogs from other countries in a 
completely new environment and 

514
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:31,320
then locally having either high 
performance, high drive dogs 

515
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:36,000
bred for specific jobs in urban 
environments all of a sudden in 

516
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,800
apartments and things like that.
I just saw today and I'm so glad

517
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,080
I took a screenshot of this 
because there was this show you 

518
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,640
a picture. 
I don't know if you can see that

519
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,600
that skin malamute in a crate 
having torn up its entire bed 

520
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,520
person was before and after I 
came back from work. 

521
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,440
So this poor dog malamute has 
been in their crate for 8 hours 

522
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,880
and some people are just giving 
advice and they're just like oh 

523
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,280
you're doing crating wrong. 
I'm just like, surely that's not

524
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,480
it? 
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's 

525
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,160
unfortunate because that a lot 
of times, like they get upset at

526
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,520
the dog, right? 
And we would never get upset at 

527
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,440
someone we love if they're 
distressed in a certain 

528
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,120
situation, at least we hope they
don't. 

529
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:21,800
But that's often an indicator of
the dogs in very distressed or 

530
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,760
bored. 
Sometimes they do destroy things

531
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,640
because if they need to do 
something, I mean, it is a long 

532
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,640
time to be confined. 
So yeah, I see that often where 

533
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,160
it's, there's so much to miss 
going back to misinterpretation 

534
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,960
and miscommunication. 
And it's it kind of saddens me 

535
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,720
when I see dogs get punished for
something that's quite normal 

536
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,320
for them to do, right? 
Or it's just like a human 

537
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,040
getting yelled at or punished 
for, you know, biting their 

538
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,680
nails when they're nervous, 
right? 

539
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,600
It's their way of coping with 
something that's driven by 

540
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,960
anxiety. 
Again, that underlying reason 

541
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,520
for the behaviour. 
So once we understand it, then 

542
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,200
we could come home and be like, 
oh, chewed up your dog bed. 

543
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,640
Let me figure out what's going 
on. 

544
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,120
Do we need to give you more 
space? 

545
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:02,080
Do we need to maybe other things
to chew on? 

546
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,600
Do we need to maybe have less 
time alone because you have 

547
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,720
separation distress or anxiety? 
And so looking at the root 

548
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,800
causes is going to help us not 
yell at the dog for doing 

549
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,720
something quite normal, although
it might seem abnormal again to 

550
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,440
a lot of humans. 
I find it so interesting. 

551
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,640
There's so many underlying 
factors and and it really just 

552
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,920
takes a human to not be 
defensive and to really want to 

553
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,640
look and to really want to see, 
to be able to pick up on those 

554
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,880
cues and treat the aggression as
they're trying to tell you 

555
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,200
something. 
What are some of the foundations

556
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,560
or like the basics that a dog 
needs to live an optimal life? 

557
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,640
I know that there are like the 
five freedoms. 

558
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,120
In your experience, what would 
an optimal life look like for a 

559
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:45,360
dog? 
Yeah, I think I'll speak from 

560
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:47,880
the aggression lens meaning 
because the work I do and the 

561
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,840
number one thing is safety, 
safety is going to override 

562
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,440
everything else because and 
that's from a physiological, 

563
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,040
biological, evolutionary 
standpoint as well. 

564
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,800
So when we are in fight or 
flight mode because we are 

565
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,320
feeling threatened by something 
that overrides hunger, right, 

566
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,120
because our systems prime 
themselves to escape that we're 

567
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:09,200
not worried about digesting, you
know, lunch. 

568
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,000
We are then going into, I need 
to get away from this thing that

569
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,560
might kill me or eat me. 
Safety is the most important 

570
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,400
thing for everyone or for all 
species. 

571
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,320
It's, it's most important. 
So that's the number one thing 

572
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,800
that sometimes gets missed 
because it's sometimes we think 

573
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,480
of overt safety, you know, don't
get in the dog's face and scare 

574
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,160
the dog or keep them away from 
the loud noises and things like 

575
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,520
that. 
Yes, very important. 

576
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,120
Well, we sometimes have to think
at a sort of the mid level or 

577
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:36,080
even micro level. 
It can be it's just exposures to

578
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,640
to loud noises at a distance, 
but it's all day long. 

579
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,520
Or it could be there in a noisy 
apartment building with lots of 

580
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,840
construction going on for weeks 
at a time. 

581
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,800
That can erode their safety, 
that can increase their stress. 

582
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,560
And we also know about chronic 
stress, you know, distress where

583
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,440
it's can be detrimental to 
health. 

584
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,480
So safety can have implications 
on so many other things because 

585
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,640
we talked about health, the 
brambles 5 freedoms, you know, 

586
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,720
have access to or freedom of 
from sickness and things like 

587
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,040
that to keep the dog healthy. 
But if dogs not feeling safe 

588
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,120
long term, that's going to 
impact their health. 

589
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,880
So I would say safety definitely
number one, I think #2 it is 

590
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,120
quality of life. 
You know, that's technically, 

591
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,720
you know, can be intertwined 
with the five freedoms or some 

592
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,480
of the other welfare models out 
there. 

593
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,080
But I do think how do we assess 
that properly? 

594
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,760
Because we all talk about, yeah,
good welfare, good standards, 

595
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,400
yeah, yeah, quality of life. 
But what does that look like? 

596
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,920
And each dog is going to be 
different, just like each human.

597
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,520
But a lot of that for me is just
access to nature, access to 

598
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,160
things that the dog can explore.
And the dogs going to go back to

599
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,280
telling you what they like. 
So if it's a foster dog or a new

600
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,120
dog or somebody, one of your 
listeners is just getting a dog,

601
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,360
go out there and try things just
like we would with our kids, 

602
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,280
right? 
We're just going to, we're going

603
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,840
to try a lot of different things
to see what they enjoy, what 

604
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,720
they like to explore, what they 
like to play with. 

605
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,120
Do they like to play? 
Are they more solo and just like

606
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,160
to sniff in the woods? 
Are they more into running with 

607
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,080
you? 
Are they more into playing with 

608
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,680
you directly? 
Is it without toys Even so what 

609
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,000
do they like to do? 
And I think that will also allow

610
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,720
you measurements of quality of 
life because of a dog's like, 

611
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,040
all right, we're going to go for
this one mile run and you got 

612
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,680
like an English bulldog or 
something. 

613
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,680
That's like, I don't like 
writing at all. 

614
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,800
And you might think, Oh, that's,
that's a great quality of life, 

615
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,200
right? 
Because I, I read it in a book. 

616
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,600
I saw it online, I saw Instagram
beam about exercise and quality 

617
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,000
of running and, and movements 
and things like that. 

618
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,040
And we don't ask the dog that's 
not good quality of life. 

619
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,120
We think it is just like 
sometimes welfare standards are 

620
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,040
like what we think is humans, 
But it really is about the dogs 

621
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,240
telling us, just like with 
people, we're going to ask them 

622
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:43,840
what's, what's good quality of 
life for you? 

623
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,720
What do you like to do? 
So that's probably #2 on my list

624
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,160
is in terms of avoiding 
aggression in a lot of cases. 

625
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,760
If you just do those two things,
you don't have to do any 

626
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,840
training or fancy behaviour 
change strategies. 

627
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,880
You just provide good quality of
life, meaning the dog gets 

628
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,080
plenty of exercise and 
enrichment and stimulation and 

629
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,520
gets to be a dog as we've 
intended, as Mother Nature's 

630
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,600
intended. 
And evolution is intended, not 

631
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,800
what we as humans in the last 50
years have tried to intend. 

632
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,280
And then safety. 
So when a dog's feeling safe, 

633
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:16,880
they don't need to resort to 
aggression. 

634
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,200
Like what's the point, right? 
I'm feeling safe. 

635
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,000
I'm not feeling threatened. 
I don't need to use aggression. 

636
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,600
So and you know, of course 
quality of life is going to mean

637
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,000
they get the nutrition and water
and all those things as well. 

638
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,960
But so they don't have to 
compete for those resources or 

639
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,720
resource guard, right? 
Or show aggression around 

640
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,240
resources. 
So if you do those two things 

641
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,560
many, many times, you don't have
to do much else, right? 

642
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,880
With the exception of course, 
like pain, underlying pain 

643
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,080
issues, but that all falls into 
the welfare models and quality 

644
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,040
of life as well, of course. 
And I should mention that 

645
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,680
because from an aggression lens,
pain is one of the most under 

646
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,440
diagnosed reason for aggression.
And so when, if anyway, 

647
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,360
experiencing aggression issues 
with their dog, when in doubt, 

648
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,880
get a full checkup, not just a 
I'm going to take the dog to a 

649
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,080
vet for a quick look being, you 
know, go in and, and you know, 

650
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,400
it's best to rule out those 
issues because you can hire the 

651
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,240
best train in the world and 
spend 10s of $1000 if you want. 

652
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,320
And you are not going to change 
anything if the dogs in pain and

653
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:18,960
the reason for the aggression is
the pain. 

654
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,840
So it's just this little side 
note there. 

655
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,480
Yeah, sure. 
It's important as well because 

656
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,160
like let's say for example, like
the the dog is showing 

657
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,360
aggression and you try and 
manage it on your own. 

658
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,880
All the stories I've heard 
people try and manage it on 

659
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,520
their own. 
They get to a point where 

660
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,680
they're so frustrated and so 
desperate that they end up 

661
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,360
looking for a faster solution. 
And the faster solutions tend to

662
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,800
come from trainers with a 
certain philosophy. 

663
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,480
And so applying pain on pain, 
ultimately, it's awful. 

664
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,240
It's just I can't imagine 
anything worse for the welfare 

665
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,640
of the dog, really. 
Yeah, and that's the unfortunate

666
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,960
thing is because dogs cannot 
speak. 

667
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,160
They can't tell us unless you're
good at reading their 

668
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,080
communications. 
You have to speak dogs who 

669
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,480
really see that. 
And you know, the worst cases 

670
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,400
from you is when I see go in and
the clients and they've tried a 

671
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,000
lot of things and they've 
they're just listening to 

672
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,320
another trainers advice. 
So it's like the milligramme 

673
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,840
experiment, right where people 
just Oh yeah, I'm going to shock

674
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,000
the other person because the 
professionals telling me to do 

675
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,360
so. 
And so same thing can happen 

676
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:23,960
homes. 
The person's just trying to stop

677
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,880
the behaviour. 
And I don't blame them. 

678
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,160
They're doing the best they can 
with the information they have, 

679
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,280
right? 
They think this is the best 

680
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,840
thing because the professional 
told them to do so, but they 

681
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,400
might be using whatever training
tool or device that causes the 

682
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,400
dog pain. 
And the worst case for me when 

683
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,720
the, when I see the dog is 
already in pain and they're just

684
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,120
trying to communicate, hey, 
please don't touch me when I'm 

685
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,920
trying to rest on my dog bed 
here. 

686
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,080
Can you please keep the children
away from me because they keep 

687
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,280
jumping on my hip that I had hip
dysplasia with or, you know, and

688
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,320
it's Ouch, you know, and they're
growling or they're snarling or 

689
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,520
whatever to communicate, they're
in pain. 

690
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,000
And then the, the client, the 
guardians, just like, no, you 

691
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,560
don't. 
I'm going to RIP you off your 

692
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,880
dog bed and sell, you know, and 
use a correction. 

693
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,720
And now the dogs in more pain. 
And what a travesty. 

694
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,080
Because if you think about that,
if we were to do that to any 

695
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,400
human or child, it would be 
awful and most of the time 

696
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,560
illegal. 
But dogs unfortunately don't get

697
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,840
that passed. 
They get they get misunderstood 

698
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,840
because they can't tell us what 
they're doing. 

699
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,920
So that's why, again, you know, 
a good professional is going to 

700
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,280
be the interpreter, right? 
They're going to interpret that 

701
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,239
dog communication for their 
guardian so they can then 

702
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,960
understand again, going back to 
the underlying reason for the 

703
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,560
aggressive responses. 
So yeah, pain is pain is a big 

704
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:39,960
one. 
I've been on that for the last 

705
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,360
very heavily trying to push that
message out there for the last 

706
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,080
few years because I just see so 
many tragic cases because the 

707
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,120
dogs not diagnosed correctly. 
A lot of rehoming as well 

708
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,800
because people get scared. 
It's like all of a sudden the 

709
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,880
dog was snarling or barking or 
like lunging at me or snapping 

710
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,040
or and then you just think, 
okay, it didn't happen 

711
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,920
overnight. 
There were lots of cues that you

712
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,560
potentially missed there. 
Yeah, yeah, it's a sad, sad 

713
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,080
scenario when you when you come 
upon it. 

714
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,520
But it is I guess the silver 
lining to it is that you feel 

715
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,240
grateful when the clients do 
finally understand and, you 

716
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:16,280
know, you've helped the client 
and their dog and you've 

717
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,720
repaired their relationship and 
you've gotten the dog some help.

718
00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:22,120
And sometimes because when 
people think training, dog 

719
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,200
training, they think sit down, 
stay, come. 

720
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,360
You know, I'm going to teach my 
dog tricks and things like that.

721
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,640
How I work is much different. 
Or really anybody doing 

722
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,880
aggression cases going to work 
much differently. 

723
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,680
So it's not a lot of sit down, 
stay, come. 

724
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,400
I can literally go into some 
homes and just figure out what's

725
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,560
going on. 
I don't do any training like 0. 

726
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,640
There's no sit down stay treats 
or anything. 

727
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,360
It is just saying your dogs in 
pain. 

728
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,240
Let's get to the vet. 
Let's take care of that issue. 

729
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,680
Here's what you're going to do 
to not bother your dog while 

730
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,080
they're in pain. 
For now, here's what you can 

731
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,520
change in your approach. 
Then here's the signals in 

732
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,320
communication your dog is going 
to give you and the case is 

733
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,280
solved, right? 
So we don't have to do anything 

734
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,960
else. 
So it's a lot different kind of 

735
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:03,600
work that we often do in 
aggression cases, but it's also 

736
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,600
very rewarding. 
You know, when you find those 

737
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,160
cases, that something that's all
you have to do and it's an easy 

738
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,880
fix in our mind. 
But it's not so easy when the 

739
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,160
clients confronted with that. 
You mentioned, you mentioned 

740
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,360
frustration, you mentioned, you 
know, there's so many emotions 

741
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,200
on the human side, frustration, 
anger, fear, guilt, distrust. 

742
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,120
There's so many things that come
into play. 

743
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,160
And another thing I say in my, 
in my work is that the, you 

744
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,280
know, if you want to get into, 
if you're a dog trainer and you 

745
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,720
want to get into working 
aggression cases, you have to 

746
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:36,840
love people and you have to love
working with people because a 

747
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,440
lot of people get into dog 
training because they love dogs 

748
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,120
and maybe they don't like people
so much. 

749
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,040
Like if you want to work with 
aggression cases, you gotta love

750
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,920
people. 
The dogs, the dogs actually 

751
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,240
become the easy part because 
most of the aggression cases are

752
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:50,160
very similar. 
But it's really all about the 

753
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,360
people, getting them to 
understand, gonna see so many 

754
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,360
different emotions. 
You have to be able to empathise

755
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,000
and be compassionate. 
You can't judge them for what 

756
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,200
they're just trying to do to 
stop. 

757
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,960
It's, it's, yeah, there's a lot 
of interesting things I've 

758
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,200
learned over the last, you know,
decade or so working with 

759
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,120
people, so many thousands of 
people. 

760
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,640
Fascinating, Fascinating human 
The human side of these cases. 

761
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:16,280
I wonder what percentage roughly
of trainers actually train the 

762
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,680
humans. 
As in like what percentage is 

763
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,840
human training and what 
percentage would be dog 

764
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,600
training? 
Yeah, I think it depends. 

765
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,920
So for instance, if you're doing
service dog like you're training

766
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,680
service dogs, you you're rarely 
I would say it's like 95%, five 

767
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:31,760
percent. 
I could be way off because I 

768
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,200
don't do service dog training. 
But obviously there's a lot more

769
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,160
the trainer training the dog to 
do this work for many, many 

770
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,640
hours, sometimes years or 
working dog type situations. 

771
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,400
Sport dog trainers as well may 
not be necessarily having to get

772
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,720
into the deep emotions of the 
people they're working with. 

773
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,880
So it can you start to see a 
little bit more higher 

774
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,240
percentages and the people, but 
nothing near as close to like 

775
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:54,920
with aggression cases or 
behaviour cases. 

776
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,000
Separation anxiety cases are 
another example. 

777
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,200
It's it's probably ninety 1090% 
with the humans telling them, 

778
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,600
showing them what to do, maybe 
10% with the dogs or even that 

779
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,840
My wife who's a veterinarian, 
she works with separation 

780
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,800
anxiety cases and it's more 100 
and 0. 

781
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,920
Like she sees the dog, but she 
actually never meets the dog 

782
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,920
because all of the work is done 
online. 

783
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,880
And that's actually the best way
to do separation anxiety cases. 

784
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,800
So the trainer's not becoming 
part of the distraction or the 

785
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,000
departure queues, they call it 
when the person leaves the home 

786
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,520
and the trainer can actually 
kind of mess things up if 

787
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,200
they're there. 
So it's better if they're not 

788
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,760
there. 
And so she actually never meets 

789
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,320
the dog. 
So it's really, when you think 

790
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,800
about it, 100% she's working 
with the people. 

791
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,200
And so, yeah, I think it depends
what kind of training. 

792
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:39,240
There's lots of different types 
of training, lots of different 

793
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,480
areas we can go into and 
specialise in. 

794
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,400
So, yeah, but, but yeah, most 
times when you have issues, 

795
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,080
whether it's dogs pulling on 
leash, dogs jumping up on the 

796
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,880
counter, dogs showing 
aggression, separation anxiety, 

797
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,840
it's the good percentage is the 
people you're training the 

798
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,920
people how to live with and work
with their dog. 

799
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,160
Yeah. 
It's actually easily fixable, 

800
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,440
right? 
But how often do you see things 

801
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,960
like shame stopping people from 
finding solutions for their 

802
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,520
animals? 
You know, I, I hear that, but 

803
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,480
that's come out of them, of 
course, after I, I start working

804
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,760
with them, you know, they were 
like, I was really embarrassed 

805
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,080
where I was like, I don't know, 
I mean, it was something I was 

806
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,800
doing or I did something wrong 
or I made a mistake. 

807
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,000
And so you do hear that, that 
emotion, that's that underlying 

808
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,720
worry. 
And that's very common. 

809
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:33,200
Do you know, you know, when we 
have that uncertainty about 

810
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,800
what's going on and we're going 
to blame, we have a lot of self 

811
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,360
doubt, self blame. 
So not uncommon at all. 

812
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:42,000
And then that is, you know, 
there are some people that they 

813
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,280
just won't reach out for 
professional help because 

814
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,280
they're just so embarrassed or 
they don't want to tell anybody 

815
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,200
or they don't want to show 
anybody they made a mistake. 

816
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,400
And I always tell people again, 
we're all just doing the best we

817
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,040
can with the information we 
have, right? 

818
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,960
So we all, and we all can make 
mistakes and we all can look 

819
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,040
back. 
And just like me when I first 

820
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,240
started up, you know, I did a 
lot of stupid things and it's 

821
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,960
just we learned, we grow. 
So, and that's the other part of

822
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,240
it too, right? 
In life, when we, when we can 

823
00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:12,000
recognise that right, those 
mistakes, then the shame 

824
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,160
dissipates, the embarrassment 
can dissipate because we can 

825
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,480
look back and say, haha, you 
know, I did those things, but I 

826
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,240
also grew, I also grew out of 
that so. 

827
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,520
Yeah, thankfully I've read 
somewhere that you were a 

828
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,360
crossover trainer. 
Do you feel comfortable talking 

829
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:27,360
about that? 
Sure. 

830
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,520
Yeah. 
I mean that that kind of falls 

831
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,640
into the picture of mistakes I 
made. 

832
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,360
So crossover trainer, for those 
that don't know is somebody that

833
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,880
started using aversives. 
Aversives can be defined as 

834
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,320
things like prong collars or 
electronic training collars, 

835
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,840
choke chains, other aversives or
punishers, they call it things 

836
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,760
that are the dog finds 
uncomfortable or painful. 

837
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,720
So I started out using those 
things and in fact, I was, I was

838
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:53,600
very heavy-handed when I first 
started. 

839
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:56,200
And this is going back about 25 
years now. 

840
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,840
And a lot of the training was 
like that and some still is 

841
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,800
today. 
But that's, that's what I was 

842
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,880
exposed to. 
And it's interesting because 

843
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,120
that's talks a lot about culture
and your surroundings and your 

844
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,320
environment, because I actually 
didn't know any of the positive 

845
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,320
training existed at the time. 
I'd never heard of it. 

846
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:14,640
I'd never heard of clicker 
training. 

847
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,320
It was out there and it was 
readily out there. 

848
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,600
And, and it, that's another 
thing that drives me crazy too, 

849
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,520
is when people say, oh, they 
should know better. 

850
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,560
Like we're talking about 
trainers, like all this 

851
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,920
information is out there, but 
it's not really unless you're in

852
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,160
that environment. 
It's the life algorithm. 

853
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,360
At the time that I was in, I 
was, you know, there's people 

854
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,440
like Cesar Milan were around and
that's what I was exposed to. 

855
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,320
That was my life algorithm. 
So that's what my algorithm kept

856
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:40,920
feeding me. 
So I joined Yahoo groups that 

857
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,640
were like, you know, that that 
was my algorithm because that's 

858
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,280
all I learned about. 
I never heard of the other 

859
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,920
names. 
And finally, it's like one day 

860
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,080
you're on your Instagram feed 
and you get a different kind of 

861
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,680
posts that's from somebody else 
you don't follow, but it's a 

862
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,920
suggested for you kind of thing.
That's what happened to me in 

863
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,520
one of the Yahoo groups, a 
couple of trainers training 

864
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,440
groups. 
Some people were very nasty to 

865
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,920
me for what I was doing, but I 
was like, why you being because 

866
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,600
wow, everybody trains. 
So they're like, no, it's not. 

867
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,000
But a couple of mentors at the 
time kind of took me under the 

868
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,480
wings. 
And there's some alternative 

869
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,960
methods here you can use. 
Check these out if you're 

870
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,360
interested. 
Happy to teach you like, OK, 

871
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,240
I'll check it out. 
And I started to learn about 

872
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,800
alternative techniques, positive
reinforcement, and I started to 

873
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,080
get into that algorithm. 
So that's what started coming 

874
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,640
across my life feed at the time.
So I'm like, oh, this book or 

875
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,480
this group or this article, and 
I started this seminar, this 

876
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,360
conference, and then I started 
to really get myself to that 

877
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,120
world and, but allowed it took 
some time for me to change. 

878
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,400
You know, that kind of shift 
doesn't happen in one day. 

879
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,040
You can take a couple years, but
overtime it started to go with 

880
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,680
the mindset of what can I do in 
this particular situation or 

881
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,160
case that's going to use 
positive reinforcement instead 

882
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,320
of what I'm used to and know how
to do. 

883
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,600
Because I can get a dog to stop 
jumping, lunging, barking, 

884
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,560
growling, biting. 
I can get them to stop that 

885
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,520
quite well because punishment 
does work and a verses work 

886
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,760
really well and quickly if you 
know how to use them. 

887
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,640
But that's not addressing the 
underlying issue, right? 

888
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,720
We can stop a dog from biting, 
but that doesn't make them less 

889
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:08,320
fearful. 
We need to help them feel safer 

890
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,000
and, and address the fear so the
dog doesn't have the need to go 

891
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,320
to that biting behaviour. 
I'm trying to punish in the 1st 

892
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,240
place. 
So once I had that, I sort of 

893
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,840
shift in my head that really 
helped me say, okay, that's what

894
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,200
I'm gonna keep doing. 
Like what can I replace my old 

895
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:23,680
technique with with a new 
technique? 

896
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,640
I have to get good at those new 
techniques, but that can happen 

897
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,960
over time. 
So over time that shifted and it

898
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,480
became how I train now, which is
of course, positive 

899
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,680
reinforcement based approaches 
to, to helping dogs with 

900
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,720
aggression issues. 
But I always told myself also 

901
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:41,480
because I had some really great 
mentors, mentors early on. 

902
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,560
One of them, Barbara Brill, who 
passed away about about five 

903
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,080
years ago. 
She I promised myself that she's

904
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,320
the 11 of the ones that really 
helped me shift. 

905
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,120
And I promised myself, I'm going
to do the same, you know, 

906
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:55,440
because I can choose the path. 
I can be one of those nasty 

907
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:56,800
people that's like, you're an 
idiot. 

908
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:57,960
You don't know what you're 
doing. 

909
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,480
You got to stop punishing dogs. 
Or I can say, hey, you're on a 

910
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,960
journey here. 
If you're interested, happy to 

911
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,080
show you what I do No judgement.
I understand you're probably 

912
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,680
still going to keep using those 
tools for a while and you may 

913
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,880
still continue to use those 
tools forever. 

914
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,800
However, what can I show you 
that might replace some of those

915
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:15,560
moments? 
Right? 

916
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,840
It's like planting seeds that 
eventually grow and and that 

917
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,760
some trainers really shift. 
They become very good at the 

918
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,760
positive reinforcement aspects 
of training and in life, or they

919
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,240
can sometimes go the other 
direction. 

920
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:30,360
So yeah, some some good lessons 
learned in that crossover 

921
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,920
journey for sure, not only with 
the dogs, but how to navigate 

922
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,280
conversations with people and 
help shift people's mindset 

923
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,360
without violence or conflicts, 
right? 

924
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,200
Yeah. 
How much of that philosophy was 

925
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,800
tied to your identity at the 
time, and how much of A shift 

926
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,960
did that take for you to see 
yourself in a different way? 

927
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,440
Yeah, good question. 
Because I think growing up I was

928
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,760
the one like there's a, the town
I grew up when this North 

929
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,240
Providence, RI is a small, not a
small town, but you know, mid 

930
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:03,520
side suburban town. 
And it was mostly Italian and 

931
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,080
Irish kids I was growing up 
with. 

932
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,200
It was, there was me one other 
kid, he was Chinese, I'm 

933
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,680
Japanese, was one Chinese kid, 
one Colombian kid, one Saudi 

934
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,880
Arabian Lebanese kid and 1 
Indian kid that we all the five 

935
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,120
of us hung out all the time. 
So we're like that odd group. 

936
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,080
But of course the bullying was 
rampant, like really bad 

937
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:23,680
bullying I experienced when I 
was a kid. 

938
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,000
And so I started to get into 
martial arts and, and for self 

939
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,600
defence and things like that. 
So early on I learned that and I

940
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,440
got in a lot of fights, lots and
lots of fights when I was a kid.

941
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,000
So I kind of I learned, you 
know, violence is the answer to 

942
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,680
solving your problems, even if 
it's in the name of self 

943
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:39,840
defence. 
But you know, when you're a 

944
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,680
teenager, a preteen teenager in 
those days, especially settling 

945
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,440
things was with your fists or 
you know, at least boys, I 

946
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,600
would. 
I learned that that that kind of

947
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,480
affected my mindset. 
It's like, all right, solving 

948
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,640
problems with dogs, same thing 
must be right. 

949
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,680
You got to just like correct it 
and be victorious. 

950
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,480
Be the stronger one with better 
technique and you'll be 

951
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,480
victorious. 
So that really did I, I, I know 

952
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,920
it's not, I don't think I would 
just attribute it to that. 

953
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,600
Of course it's cultural. the US 
society is very heavily 

954
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:12,320
punishment based system. 
But I did, I think so many of 

955
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,320
those influences in my culture, 
you know, the cultural aspect of

956
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,400
living in the US, growing up in 
the US influenced how much I 

957
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,760
work with dogs in that same way.
And so it took some time and and

958
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,120
parented in the same way too. 
You know, I wasn't, I wasn't 

959
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,720
like a heavy-handed like parent 
or anything, but I would, you 

960
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:32,680
know, yell and do things when I 
was a young parent that I really

961
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,960
shifted over the years because 
dog training helped with that, 

962
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,400
right? 
It's, it allowed me to see a 

963
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,840
different side of how we can 
change behaviour in not only 

964
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,560
dogs, but in humans as well. 
So using positive reinforcement 

965
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,160
and empathy, understanding, 
getting to the root of the 

966
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,880
behaviour, cause of the 
behaviours we're seeing that we 

967
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,120
find undesirable was it's all 
part of the shift. 

968
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,120
So that I think, you know, from 
my childhood and then what I 

969
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,240
thought was this is how you do 
it, right? 

970
00:46:58,240 --> 00:46:59,680
This is everybody else is doing 
it. 

971
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,200
Although this, I guess this is 
how you do it and to being 

972
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,920
exposed to other things and some
really great mentors and 

973
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,120
teachers and then just applying 
that to everything else in life.

974
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,320
It's yeah. 
So dog training for me has been 

975
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,440
influential and not just to the 
work I do with the aggression, 

976
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,240
but just so many other aspects 
of life and so many other things

977
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:19,720
I do now. 
So couldn't, couldn't. 

978
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,680
I've wished for a better career 
to fall into because I could 

979
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,560
have gotten to a lot of other 
things, right? 

980
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,840
But for some reason I'm here. 
Well, it's made you. 

981
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,600
It's clearly made you a better 
human being, which is just so 

982
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,960
incredible, isn't it? 
Like when you think about how 

983
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,680
dogs are just the perfect 
teachers, really. 

984
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,600
Absolutely, absolutely. 
And some dogs have taught me so 

985
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,840
much. 
One of my first moments was I 

986
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,480
was walking, I was fostering. 
This is when I was first 

987
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,600
starting to train and I used to 
foster a lot of Labrador 

988
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,760
retrievers like big Blockhead 
and field labs. 

989
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,320
So field labs in the US, they're
like those tall, lankier labs, 

990
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,160
but they are Hardy. 
Like they will run through the 

991
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,960
icy water pricker bushes like 
they are not like Chihuahuas 

992
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:03,880
shivering in the 60° weather. 
They they will go. 

993
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,400
And so I had, I'd gotten used 
to, to training those kind of 

994
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,600
dogs, some Dobermans, I had a 
lot of like these larger kind of

995
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,680
Hardy or foster dogs, if I'm 
going to put a label on them. 

996
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,240
And so the, the, the types of 
techniques I was using, using 

997
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:18,720
prong collars and corrections, 
most of the dogs were like, OK, 

998
00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:20,560
I get it. 
And it seemed to work out well 

999
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,600
for me most of the time. 
But then I, I remember this one 

1000
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,160
foster dog, Barney was his name.
He was a Beagle. 

1001
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,680
And, you know, it's my first 
Beagle to Foster. 

1002
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,840
And I'm thinking, all right, so 
the same thing is going to work.

1003
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,880
This dog's pulling. 
And here I'm the idiots. 

1004
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,120
That's like, OK, this dog's 
trying to sniff. 

1005
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,040
It's a Beagle, right? 
I'm like, talk about not 

1006
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,400
allowing for quality of life in 
their needs met here. 

1007
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,360
I'm like, you can't sniff 
because I don't know, I read 

1008
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:48,680
that in a book somewhere or 
something. 

1009
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:50,360
Yeah. 
So. 

1010
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,000
So I I was like, all right, I've
got to solve this issue of 

1011
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,600
pulling because, you know, to be
a better adoption candidate, he 

1012
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,280
should learn how to walk nicely 
on leash. 

1013
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:00,080
That's why I put a prong collar 
on him. 

1014
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,120
I go outside and I gave him one 
correction and he let out the 

1015
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,160
most horrific Beagle scream, 
just clearly telling me that 

1016
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,480
this, that was an awful thing to
do. 

1017
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,440
And that moment just clicked 
something in my brain that just 

1018
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,760
said, OK, something is not right
with what I'm doing. 

1019
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,800
Even though it had, I've been so
heavily reinforced myself in the

1020
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,240
past for doing that and said, 
well, I can chain any dog that's

1021
00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:24,280
a pollen leash. 
It's easy. 

1022
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,760
I've done a million times with a
bunch of different dogs. 

1023
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,360
But, you know, it was that that 
moment that shifted me thinking 

1024
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,920
there's got to be another way, 
even if it might be harder at 

1025
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:34,880
first for me to learn. 
I've got to figure out a 

1026
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,680
different way because Barney was
just like, you know, dude, 

1027
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,960
that's not cool. 
And I said, you're right, let me

1028
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,520
figure something out. 
So I started my journey into to 

1029
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,720
the positive reinforcement side 
of things. 

1030
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:51,720
So yeah, yeah, dogs. 
He taught me a lot among many 

1031
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:54,800
other dogs I've worked with, but
he was definitely a teacher for 

1032
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,640
me. 
I had a balanced trainer on the 

1033
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,840
podcast a couple of months ago 
and it was a very open 

1034
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:03,800
conversation. 
And I'm open to having 

1035
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,040
conversations where, you know, 
let's just learn from each other

1036
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,880
because I'm trying to understand
the psychology as in like what 

1037
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,320
what makes you feel that this is
the best way? 

1038
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,760
Right. 
And the reason why I asked those

1039
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,240
questions was because as a pet 
parent, it's very confusing. 

1040
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:22,600
Like you're hearing things from 
all different angles. 

1041
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,000
And, and the conversation I had 
with him, I have to admit I 

1042
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,760
would never, but I recognise 
he's extremely convincing 

1043
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,160
everything from data. 
He was an excellent orator, like

1044
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,720
just so convincing in so many 
ways. 

1045
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:42,200
And I believe truly that he 
believes truly that his way is 

1046
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,680
the best and kindest way. 
He was basically saying that a 

1047
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,600
lot of the data that other 
people quote when they reference

1048
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:53,080
this science doesn't include 
extreme cases. 

1049
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,720
They exclude include regular 
pets and smaller numbers. 

1050
00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:01,560
And so the research isn't there 
to justify what they have seen 

1051
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,160
to be true and accurate in the 
real world. 

1052
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,320
And that kind of stuck with me 
because I thought I know there 

1053
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:12,280
are people like yourself who are
force free and you do deal with 

1054
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,680
extreme cases. 
So how are you successful in 

1055
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,880
that if the other camp believes 
that there is no other way? 

1056
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,360
Yeah. 
I think to start, we should 

1057
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,280
clarify the labels there. 
So again, if the listeners 

1058
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,680
aren't familiar with these 
terms, balanced trainers, the 

1059
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,320
term balance trainers generally 
mean somebody that will use an 

1060
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:37,000
aversive tool or technique that 
can be from time to time, that 

1061
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:38,960
could be a lot, that can be 
infrequently. 

1062
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,720
And so it's an unfortunate label
because the folks that I've met 

1063
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:45,600
that might be labelled as 
balanced or ascribed to that, 

1064
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,680
that label can fall into a very 
wide spectrum. 

1065
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,400
And the same thing for that term
force free trainer. 

1066
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,440
So force free trainer would or 
or positive only, which is 

1067
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,120
actually a misnomer because 
there's no trainer that can be 

1068
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,880
positive only because no matter 
what we do, there's other the 

1069
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,240
punishment can be evolved and 
punishment doesn't mean like 

1070
00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:05,200
what people think, think like 
hitting the dog or yelling at 

1071
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,400
the dog. 
It could be simply removing the 

1072
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:08,680
treat. 
What do you mean the dog jumps 

1073
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:09,800
up? 
And I'd be like, no, you can't 

1074
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,360
have that because you jumped up.
That's technically a punisher in

1075
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:17,760
the scientific sense. 
So I just wanted to clarify that

1076
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,800
this will force free trainers 
tend to be legal as somebody 

1077
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,840
that doesn't use something like 
a prong collar, electric collar 

1078
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,320
or choke chain, something like 
that. 

1079
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,040
And then you even have a 
spectrum in there because some 

1080
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,320
force retrainers might say, OK, 
I'm going to block the dog dog 

1081
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,280
from running out the door into 
traffic, right? 

1082
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:36,720
So they might just step in front
of the dog. 

1083
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,840
That technically is an aversive 
stimulus. 

1084
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,400
You're preventing that. 
So you're putting your body 

1085
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,160
there. 
That could be construed as 

1086
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,560
punishment. 
So that is also not necessarily 

1087
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:51,200
completely positive only, but it
seems benign because who hasn't 

1088
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,000
stepped in front of their dog? 
They don't want them jumping up 

1089
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,280
on grandma or jumping out in the
street, right? 

1090
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,200
So I just wanted to clarify that
for the discussion's sake. 

1091
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:02,960
I think labels can be divisive 
in the industry because if you 

1092
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,560
really look at a good percentage
of the trainer's, many of them 

1093
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,320
are doing the same thing, right?
The exception is maybe they 

1094
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,360
don't use certain tools, but 
it's the dog that determines 

1095
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,040
what's aversive. 
So some dogs might consider a 

1096
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,280
body block the first thing in 
the planet or you pulling a 

1097
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,640
treat away like death is going 
to come upon them for you doing 

1098
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,240
that. 
And then some dogs you can put 

1099
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:25,960
electronic collar on and put 
them on full blast and they're 

1100
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,520
like, haha, that tickles, right?
And so obviously I'm making 

1101
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,840
extreme examples there, but I 
just wanted to put that out 

1102
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:33,480
there, especially for any 
trainers listening in. 

1103
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,680
I think that we have to be 
succinct with our definitions of

1104
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,000
those, the different types of 
trainers out there. 

1105
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,440
So, so yeah, the other question 
is the other conundrum that 

1106
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,880
comes up is, or the argument I 
should say is, you know, let's 

1107
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:46,640
see some force. 
We trainers, a positive only 

1108
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,000
trainers work with the severe 
aggression cases sort of as a 

1109
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,040
measuring stick of like, OK, if 
you can work with those cases, 

1110
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,200
great. 
But the issue with that is how 

1111
00:53:56,200 --> 00:54:01,200
do you really measure success? 
Because if it's aggression, 

1112
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:06,080
aggression is normal behaviour, 
meaning you don't ever remove it

1113
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,400
from animals repertoire. 
So if I was like Nadine, you 

1114
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,920
know, I'm going to have some 
guys jump out at you on the 

1115
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,440
street and attack you and you're
going to punch him in the face 

1116
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,240
as defence and that's gonna work
for you, right? 

1117
00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:21,480
So, but I'm going to give you a 
positive reinforcement 

1118
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,960
programme, say, okay, we're 
going to reward you with 

1119
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,960
$1,000,000 every time you don't 
punch the next guy in the face. 

1120
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,840
You'll be like all right, I 
could probably do that and maybe

1121
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,400
you'll just deal with the 
attacker and talk nicely or 

1122
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:33,880
whatever. 
Something that works for you, 

1123
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:38,840
but that doesn't eradicate what 
you know how to do 10 years from

1124
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,120
now somebody could have come on 
and attack you and you might 

1125
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:42,640
punch him in the face because 
you know that works. 

1126
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,960
So you actually, there's no way 
of telling somebody. 

1127
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,800
This technique fixed the issue 
and that's the operative word 

1128
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,400
there. 
Fixed it, eliminated it, solved 

1129
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,040
it. 
You never do with aggression 

1130
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:58,040
because it's normal behaviour. 
We don't remove that out of any 

1131
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,800
animals repertoire if they want 
to live. 

1132
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,360
So that fight, flight response, 
it's innate. 

1133
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,800
It's innate in all of us, and so
to use that as a measuring stick

1134
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,080
is a problem because there's no 
way of knowing for sure. 

1135
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,320
You can make it look good on 
camera, right? 

1136
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,880
I could get a dog like the Dog 
Daddy and use that technique and

1137
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:17,960
get the dog to stop trying to 
bite, bite and lunch using 

1138
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,280
punishment. 
Or I could give the dog a treat 

1139
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,000
from a distance when it doesn't 
bite, and lunch when it sees a 

1140
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,480
person from a distance and it's 
all going to look good on 

1141
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,640
camera. 
But that's only one snapshot in 

1142
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:32,240
time. 
There's no way of measuring if 

1143
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:34,600
something's truly going to be 
successful when it comes to 

1144
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,520
aggression. 
Now we can get into the nitty 

1145
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,080
gritty be like, okay, let's some
of the other types of training. 

1146
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,400
We could say, okay, let's teach 
dogs how to sit, which one can, 

1147
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,360
which camp can get a dog to sit 
faster in the kitchen. 

1148
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:49,040
All right, and so you can, you 
might have contests like that 

1149
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:53,000
one, but with aggression cases 
that you can't because it's, 

1150
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,040
it's normal behaviour. 
Now, the other thing to think 

1151
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,120
about is when it comes to 
aggression cases, the aggressive

1152
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,760
behaviour of the dog is just a 
minimal part of the entire 

1153
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,120
situation. 
And so an example, it could be 

1154
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,440
like, let's take the same dog 
and we'll get a couple trainers,

1155
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:09,920
you know, all right, let's like,
let's do it like this way. 

1156
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,200
This you take two litter mates, 
identical as in every way 

1157
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,480
they've been raised the same and
they're showing the same high 

1158
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,080
level of aggression. 
Let's take one and give it to 

1159
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,320
the force free trainer. 
Take one and give it to the 

1160
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,640
balance trainer. 
See who can solve or get the 

1161
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,640
best progress with that client 
in three months, right? 

1162
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:30,600
But now you have one dog goes to
home with five kids, single 

1163
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,600
parents working a full time job,
no fenced in yard, one bedroom 

1164
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,720
apartment, that kind of 
environment. 

1165
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:39,360
You go to the other home, they 
have millions of dollars to 

1166
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,440
spend. 
They have all the free time. 

1167
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:45,280
Two adults only living in the 
home, lots of fenced in area, 

1168
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:46,680
plenty of enrichment 
opportunities. 

1169
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:50,360
The best vet here, right? 
And you could take which trainer

1170
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,440
is going to take which one 
because one's going to have a 

1171
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,760
lot harder time than the other. 
So it's it's important to 

1172
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,760
consider that. 
And that's, that's just the dog 

1173
00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:58,880
part of things in the 
environment. 

1174
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,000
What about the people? 
So you get that trainer, be 

1175
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:05,440
like, OK, you've got Missus 
Jones and single mom and she's 

1176
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:07,520
not dedicated at all to this 
plan. 

1177
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,000
She's too busy. 
She still likes to go out to the

1178
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,360
clubs drinking at night and she 
is not into this dog training 

1179
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,560
thing at all. 
But you still got to train 

1180
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:17,440
installed to success within 
three months. 

1181
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,600
You know the trainers got the 
fabulous couple completely 

1182
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:23,160
dedicated. 
They have a background in 

1183
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,920
psychology, they are 100% on 
board. 

1184
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:29,680
They keep data on spreadsheets. 
So you have again, another 

1185
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,640
variable in that case. 
So it is going to be impossible 

1186
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,960
to say which side's going to be 
better because of the variables 

1187
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:38,880
involved. 
Where you can start to compare 

1188
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,680
things is in those incidental, 
like a lot of the research is 

1189
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:45,120
done on incidental studies like 
a recall or getting a dog to do 

1190
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,880
some task faster than the other.
But when it comes to aggression 

1191
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,520
cases, there's just no way to 
measure what's going to be 

1192
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:53,880
better. 
It all boils down to the unique 

1193
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,480
situation. 
And I think that's that's where 

1194
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:57,760
a lot of the arguments come 
from. 

1195
00:57:57,840 --> 00:57:59,000
It's just like, who's going to 
be better? 

1196
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,200
It's dependent on the situation,
right? 

1197
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,400
Yeah. 
Yeah, and it's a shame really, 

1198
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,960
because ultimately we just want 
solutions, right? 

1199
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:10,760
That's exactly it, yeah. 
The average dog guardians not 

1200
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:12,600
going to know the difference 
that they've never heard of 

1201
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,160
balanced or force free. 
And the only people yelling 

1202
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:16,840
about at each other is the 
trainers. 

1203
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,040
And the people that do fall into
the dog training world that see 

1204
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,080
that like the guardians that 
just need help for their dog, it

1205
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,680
just creates more confusion. 
And I keep telling the industry 

1206
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,680
as much as I can, do we want to 
become an industry that's looked

1207
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,600
on as like one of those when you
think about like a sleazy 

1208
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,120
profession, and I won't name any
because I don't want to insult 

1209
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,080
it, but would you think about 
like a sleazy profession? 

1210
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,840
You're like, oh, that person's a
such and such and you kind of 

1211
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:41,680
have that look. 
That's what's going to happen to

1212
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,680
dog training soon because all 
they do is see us fighting with 

1213
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:46,920
each other all the time. 
Who's better than this and who 

1214
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,520
does what? 
And, and even worse, now we're 

1215
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,320
seeing even much more nefarious 
behaviour happening between 

1216
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:55,160
trainers. 
And that's a travesty because 

1217
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,200
we're all looking to help dogs. 
We just have different ways of 

1218
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,400
approaching it and it's just 
becoming more divisive because 

1219
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,680
everybody's fighting with each 
other about what works best. 

1220
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,800
They all work or else they 
wouldn't be in business. 

1221
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,440
And I've done both. 
I know both work the the end of 

1222
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:15,040
the day, for me at least, the 
question I ask is what can I do 

1223
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:19,800
to ensure I'm being as kind with
the dog and people as possible? 

1224
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,920
And if you just use that as your
underlying mission the whole 

1225
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,280
time, that's going to shift you 
in the right direction. 

1226
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,240
So whether you still are a 
balanced trainer, as long as you

1227
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,080
keep that, what can I do to 
ensure I'm being as kind as 

1228
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,440
possible to this dog that'll 
keep allowing you to question 

1229
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,240
what you're doing, allowing you 
to get better and ignoring all 

1230
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,960
the noise while still maybe 
using certain tools once in a 

1231
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,360
while or whatever that maybe you
2 using that tool less or less 

1232
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:47,480
extensively or less intensively,
Right. 

1233
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:49,920
So yeah. 
Ultimately, yeah, it's that 

1234
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,000
tuning in and kind of checking 
in with yourself and like how, 

1235
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,200
how do I feel? 
Because ultimately, and I'm not 

1236
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,040
saying that dogs are children, 
but I don't know. 

1237
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,240
But for me, it's like if I 
wouldn't do it to a kid, I 

1238
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,320
wouldn't do it to a dog. 
Yeah, yeah, that's a good. 

1239
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:05,800
You know, it's good to follow 
that. 

1240
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:07,960
Yeah. 
Some people argue to like, oh, 

1241
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:09,440
would you put your dog kid in 
the crates? 

1242
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,880
Would you allow your kid to pee 
outside? 

1243
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,400
Would you put your kid allow 
your kid to eat out of a food 

1244
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,640
bowl on the floor? 
Like there's all these arguments

1245
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:18,680
that are here in the in the dog 
training community start to 

1246
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:20,680
really like. 
And then the other side of 

1247
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,640
arguments sometimes you hear 
it's like, all right, if you can

1248
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,840
train a Mountain Lion to stick 
their hip up to a cage and get a

1249
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,400
blood draw, you can certainly do
that with a dog. 

1250
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,680
But, you know, mountain lions 
are also in that kind of 

1251
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,000
environment, captive animals. 
And we have protective content 

1252
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,640
and we're not inviting them to 
sleep next to us on our bed. 

1253
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:39,200
So there's, there's always gonna
be calls and arguments, you 

1254
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:41,120
know? 
Yeah, I totally forgot about 

1255
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:42,800
this. 
Yeah, it seems so obvious to me.

1256
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:44,480
If I wouldn't do it to child, I 
wouldn't. 

1257
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,720
Yeah, but I'm not gonna make my 
child leave from a bowl on the 

1258
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:48,680
floor either, but you know what 
I mean? 

1259
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:50,880
Like, OK, I wasn't talking about
that. 

1260
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,360
I was talking about, you know, 
it's so funny how these things 

1261
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,760
work, but yeah, humans will be 
humans. 

1262
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,880
In your experience, when dog 
guardians start recognising 

1263
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:05,120
certain behaviours, undesirable 
behaviours in their dogs, what 

1264
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,360
should they do, what should they
look out for and when is an 

1265
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,400
appropriate time to take action?
The appropriate time is right 

1266
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,480
away in terms of hiring a 
professional if you're worried 

1267
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,000
about aggression issues or if 
you've seen aggression issues 

1268
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,560
because it becomes more 
difficult once a dog has bitten 

1269
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,480
because they practise the 
behaviour and it's highly 

1270
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,720
reinforcing for a dog to make 
something scary or threatening 

1271
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,480
go away using their teeth. 
So they'll remember that and 

1272
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:32,360
say, I'll reach for that again 
if I need to. 

1273
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,600
So it's always best if you're 
starting to see growling or 

1274
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,440
stiffening or anything that's 
concerning. 

1275
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,720
Best to hire professional as 
soon as possible. 

1276
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,000
And the other thing to do is 
while you're waiting for that 

1277
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,760
professional to get there is 
avoid putting yourself in that 

1278
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,360
same context. 
So whatever it was feels the 

1279
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,880
dogs fighting because they get 
fed next to each other or the 

1280
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,520
you know, the dog that somebody 
coming into the house because 

1281
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:55,200
they were startled. 
Just manage that avoid that 

1282
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:59,080
situation for the time being and
at the same time make notes 

1283
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:02,720
about the the incidents that you
are remembering. 

1284
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,320
So the dog growled when the 
child walked by. 

1285
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,600
And so how far away was the 
child? 

1286
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:09,600
What was the dog doing? 
What was the time of day? 

1287
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,320
And then start to take notes. 
That's going to help the 

1288
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,240
professional help you as the 
person needing the help. 

1289
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,040
So those those are the kind of 
the top things to do is just try

1290
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:20,400
to get help right away because 
some things can be tackled on 

1291
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:22,760
their own. 
But when it comes to aggression,

1292
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:26,160
it's better not to take that 
risk of escalating things. 

1293
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,200
If you're doing things not quite
right and then managing it to 

1294
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,880
prevent rehearsal of the 
behaviour and then taking notes 

1295
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,160
for the professional is going to
help. 

1296
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:36,280
I know that helps me a lot. 
And what about on the flip side?

1297
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,960
So I spend a lot of time just 
reading people's questions and 

1298
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:44,280
things, and I've often seen that
people think that puppies biting

1299
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:46,400
is aggression. 
Is that correct? 

1300
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:51,120
Rarely so yes, puppies can bite 
using in the in the sense of 

1301
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,320
they're fearful or they're using
their teeth to make somebody go 

1302
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,920
away or something go away. 
Puppy mouthing behaviours of the

1303
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:01,040
dog just jumping up or puppies 
grabbing at your hands and 

1304
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:02,760
playfully, that's much 
different. 

1305
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,320
It's again going back to the 
underlying innovation. 

1306
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:09,000
One is play, 1 is attention 
seeking, very normal, normal, 

1307
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,480
normal puppy behaviour, 
especially for some breeds like 

1308
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:13,640
Malinois or Jack Russell's or 
something. 

1309
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:15,880
And then you have the other side
of the coin. 

1310
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:18,320
So there's a puppy biting if 
they're fearful, the body 

1311
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:20,360
language is going to tell you a 
lot plus what you do. 

1312
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,640
So if you move away and the 
puppy doesn't continue to come 

1313
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,600
towards you and you're seeing 
the puppy sort of shrink down, 

1314
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,920
tail tucked, growling, moving 
away on their own as well, that 

1315
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,400
can indicate the dogs worried 
about what you've been doing. 

1316
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:35,840
And then on the other side, if 
they keep follow you and they're

1317
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,000
they're loose and wiggly and 
jumping up and darting in and 

1318
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,640
out and being playful, that's 
puppy mouthing or attention 

1319
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:43,880
seeking. 
SO2 Totally different types of 

1320
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,600
behaviours and two totally 
different types of training too.

1321
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:48,280
So. 
I find it interesting because I 

1322
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,680
think to a regular dog person 
it's the same biting as biting. 

1323
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,000
And it can be painful too, as a 
little puppy teeth can be 

1324
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:55,720
sharps. 
A professional can help you with

1325
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:57,840
both, but with puppy mouthing, 
that's very normal. 

1326
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,080
And oftentimes that that as long
as you don't do anything to 

1327
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:02,880
escalate it, that tends to go 
away on its own when the dog 

1328
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,760
starts to get their adult teeth.
And it one of the common 

1329
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:07,920
solution, just give this puppy 
something else to put their 

1330
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,680
teeth on. 
So toys, redirect them to toys, 

1331
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,120
enrichment toys that can be 
stuffed with food, you know, 

1332
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:16,080
chewy chewables. 
That and allowing them plenty of

1333
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:18,200
time to sniff and enjoy the 
world again. 

1334
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,720
Meeting the needs you get rid of
problem behaviours. 

1335
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:23,560
Things is like Maslow's 
hierarchy but for dogs. 

1336
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:27,880
Yes. 
Oh my gosh, Mike, thank you so 

1337
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:29,760
much. 
I've really enjoyed our chat. 

1338
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:31,880
Thanks so much for having me, 
it's great conversation.