1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,760 Joining me on the podcast today is Sophie Coulthard. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,320 Sophie is the founder of Don't Ban Me Licence Me, a grassroots 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,360 movement that began in September 2023 when the UK government 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,320 announced the XL bully ban. At the time, Sophie was simply 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,760 an American Bully owner with a TikTok account, but when she 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,800 realised that her own dog's future could be threatened if he 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,800 fell into the XL Bully typing, she started using her platform 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,360 to talk about alternative relatives to a ban. 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,320 Her message quickly resonated, attracting a group of like 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,120 minded volunteers and together they launched Don't Ban Me, 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,480 Licence Me. Since then, the campaign has 12 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:47,040 raised over £200,000 to mount a legal challenge. 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,960 It has been described by charities and rescue centres as 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,600 the most successful dog related fundraiser in UK history and it 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,880 has built a powerful online community that shifted the 16 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,400 conversation towards responsible ownership and licencing. 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,480 The legal case remains ongoing with the appeals still in 18 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,520 progress today. Welcome, Sophie. 19 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,320 Thank you so much for having me look forward to the 20 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:16,000 conversation. So I met you at the AB Dog 21 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,600 meetings in London a couple of months ago and I learned a 22 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,880 little bit about don't ban me, licence me. 23 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,160 But first, you are an Excel Billy owner, is that correct? 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,320 Technically, yes, yes. Well it's this actually opens a 25 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:37,320 whole can of worms straight away because we can then debate what 26 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:40,680 an Excel bully actually is. I believed according to the 27 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,320 government guidelines that my dog was an Excel bully. 28 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,080 I have had him independently assessed and they have said that 29 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,080 they do not believe he is an Excel bully. 30 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,600 But I think people know me as an Excel bully owner so, so that's 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,960 fine, we can stick with that. Interesting. 32 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:59,960 OK. What did they say the mix was? 33 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,240 Well, it's because Excel is literally just the size of the 34 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,320 dog. And this is what I think a lot 35 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,880 of people, if you don't, if you don't have one of these breeds, 36 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,560 I think you'd probably be quite unaware of this when I talk 37 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,040 about it with friends and things. 38 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:19,440 And obviously we have a number of banned breeds in the UK, the 39 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,160 exhale bully being the most recent one that was added. 40 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,560 But an exhale bully is not a breed of dog. 41 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,720 It's, it's a set of measurements characteristics that that of 42 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,760 what a dog looks like that say that that dog is an excel bully. 43 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,320 And it's down to things like height, head size, chest size, 44 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:43,240 fur type, things like that. And when I I believed Billy was 45 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,440 that was an Excel bully, although I did have a lot of 46 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,040 people when I was appearing in the media saying to me that they 47 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,840 didn't think he was. So that was interesting. 48 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,720 And then I had him independently assessed and they said that he 49 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,520 just was not big enough. They said his head wasn't big 50 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,160 enough, his chest wasn't big enough. 51 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,920 And the thing that I found the most amusing is they said that 52 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:08,040 his waist was not enough of a rectangle, which I had to laugh 53 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:13,680 about because does a rectangle waste indicate a more dangerous 54 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,200 dog than a dog that has a nicked in waste? 55 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,000 This is where the argument goes, really, when we talk about band 56 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,360 breeds over here. But but for the purposes of the 57 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,080 interview, then yeah, we can absolutely say that Billy is an 58 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,040 Excel bully. Oh no, no, I'd rather it be a be 59 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,200 accurate. But I mean, either way, shape or 60 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:37,400 form, you've kind of been pulled into this enormous cause with a 61 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,880 background in business and then all of a sudden you're an 62 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,560 activist taking the UK government to court. 63 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,800 Like this is this is huge. Firstly, I would like to 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,080 understand your relationship with your dog. 65 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,560 Like how did how did you find him? 66 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,400 How did he come into your life? What were you looking for? 67 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,480 And you know, did you grow up with Bully? 68 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:02,760 I grew up with boxers, so they are a bull breed and I had 69 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,840 boxers. I think my earliest childhood 70 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,080 photos. We've got boxers in the house 71 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,320 and the last one that we had when I was probably going into 72 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:15,640 my late teens as a family. And then it was interesting 73 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,360 because he was actually quite a reactive dog as well, so he 74 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,079 wasn't very good with other dogs. 75 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:24,920 He could be quite protective and when you look at kind of how far 76 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,000 along we've come with training now, then perhaps when you could 77 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,600 only buy a book or a video on how to train your dog or go and 78 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,120 see a dog trainer, it's interesting to think about what 79 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,000 you do differently. But it also made me very 80 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,600 conscious when I was to get my own dog that I wanted a really 81 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,520 well trained dog #1 because I was always going to have a bull 82 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,400 breed because that's what I'd grown up with. 83 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,760 And I knew the stigma that comes with having that type of dog, 84 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:58,160 whether it's a boxer or a Staffy or some kind of, yeah, some kind 85 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,840 of mixed ball breed, there would, there would always be 86 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:05,040 that judgement, I think. And then also because of the 87 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,000 experience of having a dog that could be a little bit difficult, 88 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,640 I knew that I wanted a really well trained dog so that we 89 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,160 could avoid the sort of things that I had with that dog growing 90 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,920 up. And I was looking at the 91 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,600 different bull breeds and just kept, I lived in London. 92 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,040 So I kept running into people with these dogs that to me 93 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,000 looked a bit like a Staffy, but just bigger. 94 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,200 And I thought, Oh, well, that looks good because that type of 95 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,920 dog would probably handle hikes and longer walks and, you know, 96 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,040 just be a bit more suited to my lifestyle. 97 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:42,360 So I did some research, looked into the American bully. 98 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,880 I don't know how much the term Excel bully was being used at 99 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,960 that at that time. And then ended up obviously 100 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,040 getting Billy as a puppy three months old. 101 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,000 And it's so funny because you go through, I think the first two 102 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,560 years of a dog's life are so it can be so challenging as an 103 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,600 owner, especially as a new owner as they develop and they get 104 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,520 naughty and then they learn things and then they unlearn 105 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,880 things. I mean, how he is now, he's he's 106 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,960 the perfect dog for me. You know, I've, I've worked 107 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,160 hard, but he's got a great nature as well. 108 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,680 And he's just an absolute pleasure to be around. 109 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,600 And we all, we all miss him. If he's away for a night or 110 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,840 he's, you know, gone, gone somewhere for, for, to, to hang 111 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:32,040 out with a friend or something, then yeah, we all, we all feel 112 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:33,560 like the house is empty without him. 113 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,880 Oh cute, how old is he now? He's just turned 3. 114 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:44,080 So, so this was just what briefly after COVID, you decided 115 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,360 to get a puppy. So he he what did Did you buy 116 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,640 him or was he rescued? Yeah, we did buy him and it is 117 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,480 interesting because I think having been involved in dogs 118 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,920 since it's not something I would do again, I would always rescue 119 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,480 now having learned much more about the the state of dog 120 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,920 rescues in the UK and you know what's going on over here. 121 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,320 But but yes, we did buy him as as a puppy. 122 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,760 So yeah, it's it's. Do you, I know it's AI know it's 123 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,000 a tricky question because there's a lot of weight to it 124 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,520 depending on where you lean on the Optone shop debate. 125 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,640 But this is not kind of the arena for that. 126 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,320 When you when you bought him as a puppy and you went to the 127 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,120 Breeders like, well, what was that journey like for you and 128 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,640 what were you looking for if you can still remember? 129 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,640 Did a lot of research and actually, I think if I was aware 130 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,320 at the time, I may have seen some warning signs as to what 131 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,160 was to come with the XL bully ban because there were a lot of 132 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:50,200 people posting dogs for really high sums of money online for a 133 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,280 start. And I think anywhere that you 134 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,880 have dogs selling for that much. And we're coming out of COVID by 135 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,640 this time as well. So I didn't, I didn't want to 136 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,560 jump on the bandwagon of getting a dog during COVID because I 137 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,280 knew life would eventually change. 138 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,160 But I think we were, we were pretty much out of it when that 139 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:12,920 decision was made. And yeah, it was definitely 140 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,160 looked into some different options and felt uncomfortable 141 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,520 with the breeder or felt that the dogs were perhaps not in the 142 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,280 sort of environment that I would like to take a puppy home from. 143 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,000 But then eventually, after lots of searching, found a breeder 144 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,320 who was a family that had children. 145 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:36,960 The, the puppies were being brought up in that in the family 146 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:42,400 home around the parents, the dog parents and children as well. 147 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,320 And I really felt very different when I connected with that 148 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,840 breeder, that they wanted the right owners for their puppies 149 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,680 as well. So I definitely felt comfortable 150 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,240 taking Billy and and felt that he'd been brought up in the 151 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,680 right environment. Amazing. 152 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:02,320 And so I guess previously you didn't have much experience with 153 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,200 raising a bully, but kind of like, what was your journey in 154 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,000 terms of learning what they needed in order to kind of get 155 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:11,480 the optimal behaviour out of him? 156 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,080 It was so do you know what? It was so hard because it is a 157 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,880 complete you get hit in the face basically with all of the 158 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,120 YouTube videos and all of the Instagram accounts and all of 159 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:25,760 the Tik Toks that you can follow. 160 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,600 And I definitely fell into a trap at the very beginning of 161 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,880 trying different things that I was seeing in different videos 162 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,760 from different trainers. And I realised that I was 163 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:40,320 completely overwhelming myself. And then I decided to just 164 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:45,320 follow one training plan and focus on one sort of way of 165 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,720 doing things. And that was really helpful for 166 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,200 me. And I'm quite good at, I like to 167 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,320 learn, you know, I kind of get into something, you know, even 168 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,840 if I bought a new coffee machine the other week and I've been 169 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,080 watching so many videos on how to make the perfect coffee, you 170 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,600 know, I want to get it right. So once I kind of got the hang 171 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,400 of it and then then I think it was acknowledging as he got 172 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:13,360 older, you know, I think of if people listening have dogs that 173 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,200 might remember this four months, perfect, absolutely perfect. 174 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,800 He knew how to do everything. He was getting there with toilet 175 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,320 training. He was walking lovely. 176 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,360 And then they get to a little bit older and then the 177 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,200 rebellious stage kicks in and they become quite hard work. 178 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,200 And that's when I started to think, right, I'm not going to 179 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,280 do this all on my own. I'm going to work with a trainer 180 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,960 and actually go and see someone and have that hands on approach. 181 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:44,160 And so I really did, I do think that I, I went above what maybe 182 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,680 many dog owners do because I was just so wanted to get it right 183 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:50,120 with him. Yeah, amazing. 184 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,000 Do you remember what their approach was? 185 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,840 Because there's so much conflicting information online 186 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,600 and also a lot of people end up working with people that they 187 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,920 like as a person as opposed to their philosophy or methodology 188 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:07,240 or outlook on training and dogs in that position and in the 189 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,360 world, you know, what kind of what were you looking for and 190 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,280 what made you choose this particular trainer? 191 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,680 This was quite hard because before I got involved, I didn't 192 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:18,840 know that there was different types of training. 193 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:23,640 And you hear these terminologies now that I was not familiar with 194 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,640 at all. And R Plus, I think I couldn't 195 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,720 tell you what that means. But you hear all these different 196 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,080 things and you think, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. 197 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,880 I'm just trying to train my dog to walk nicely beside me. 198 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,760 And I went and did a couple of kind of day training sessions 199 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,120 with different dog trainers. And then I ended up finding one 200 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,520 fairly local to me. And, and Daisy, who was my 201 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,280 trainer, she has got Doberman herself. 202 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,600 So she has relatively big dogs, strong dogs. 203 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,800 And I found that everybody that went to her either had a bully 204 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,640 or a Rottweiler or a German shepherd or, you know, a dog 205 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,160 that's got a bit of a size and a bit of power to them. 206 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,480 And so I felt that that was right for me. 207 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,000 And what I really liked was how much she watched and then kind 208 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,720 of gave me advice on what to do and suggested things without 209 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,760 saying you must do it like this. Another thing that really 210 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,440 appealed to me is that she does pack walks with the dog. 211 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,000 So as if you're a client, you can take your dog. 212 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,160 And she gives us a variety of kind of weekend dates. 213 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,160 We all get together somewhere like Richmond Park or, you know, 214 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,160 Wimbledon Common or Crystal Palace. 215 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,160 And we will walk the dogs together. 216 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,480 And they're not off lead, but we do bits of training with them. 217 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,400 And it's just really important that they all get used to each 218 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:46,840 other. And it is funny because you get 219 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,760 a lot of attention when you walk with a big group. 220 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,720 Big dogs like that. They, they do get a lot of 221 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,440 looks, but a lot of people are impressed with how well behaved 222 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,920 they all are. So, so yeah, it was, it's, it's, 223 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,440 it is confusing and you do have to find what's right for you. 224 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,720 I definitely grew up in a kind of no nonsense house. 225 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,800 I grew up in a military house as well. 226 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:15,200 And so for me, some of the sluffier aspects of dog training 227 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,680 didn't appeal to me as much. And you know, dog, for me, a dog 228 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:22,680 is still a dog. And he was crate trained. 229 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:27,320 You know, there's certain things that that felt right for me in 230 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,080 that dog training world. And luckily for Billy, he had 231 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,360 acted really well to anything that was that was going on with 232 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,360 his training. He loves it so. 233 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,040 Oh he does. Amazing. 234 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,640 Do you think with with hindsight, did the trainer train 235 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,920 you more than the dog or the dog more than you? 236 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,320 Yeah, I think a lot of it is about the consistency of your 237 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,440 your own behaviour, isn't it? Are you doing things properly or 238 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,520 are you giving the dog mixed messages in what you're doing? 239 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,400 And that was really interesting to learn. 240 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,400 And also I think some of the challenges that you have when 241 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,440 you have different handlers of the dog as well. 242 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,240 So, you know, you'd find that someone in the house is doing 243 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,200 one thing and someone else in the house is doing another 244 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,920 thing. And you can tell that 245 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,280 straightaway, even with things like feeding a dog from the 246 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,160 table. You think, I've never done that? 247 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,000 Why is he suddenly come to the table now? 248 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,200 Who's been? Feeding him? 249 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,520 So did you have any kind of preconceived ideas about his 250 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,720 particular braids before you had him? 251 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,960 And then by having him, did did any of that change? 252 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,960 The ideas that I had about the American Bully were based off of 253 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,600 videos that I'd seen online and dogs that I'd met in real life. 254 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,120 The dogs that I'd met in real life had all been really well 255 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,320 behaved. And then the videos that I'd 256 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,760 seen online, which were mostly from the US kind of short 257 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,440 documentaries on YouTube, was really saying that the breed was 258 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,600 developed and bred, although a relatively new breed, I think 259 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,080 originally bred in the 80s by crossing different kind of bull 260 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,000 breeds together. They were supposed to be a 261 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,280 companion dog first. So the idea is that they would 262 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,800 be this family dog. And I know that some people may 263 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,600 listen to this and think, gosh, that's so different from what 264 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,880 I've seen in the media and the media portrayal, and it 265 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,560 absolutely is. But I think fundamentally my dog 266 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:22,480 has fulfilled what he was supposed to be. 267 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,680 He he's got the energy when we're out for a walk and he's 268 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,280 fun to go out with. He also does have that sort of 269 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,440 lazy bull breed aspect where he's quite happy to just crash 270 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:38,520 out on the sofa and, you know, cuddle up to you and he's great. 271 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,760 Since I've had Billy, my sister's had a baby, So we've 272 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,280 had a baby go from newborn to toddler that he's seen on a 273 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,800 regular basis and he's been brilliant with him. 274 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,720 So and with other dogs, which I know is something that a lot of 275 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,160 people say about these types of breeds is that they are, you 276 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,360 know, bred to fight is something that you hear a lot because 277 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,280 because of the sort of Pitbull connotation. 278 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,280 And you know, he he's so friendly with other dogs. 279 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,080 It's just not anything that I've seen. 280 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,120 At the beginning when you got him, perhaps even before he had 281 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,040 a trainer, what types of dogs did you walk him with? 282 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,880 Because my understanding is that especially with, you know, 283 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,440 younger dogs, it is. Again, this is only my 284 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:25,960 understanding. I don't know if it's the way it 285 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,280 should be or not. But I've read that you should 286 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,920 seek out in a park, for example, examples of well behaving dogs 287 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,840 and then encourage your dog or set up in opportunities for your 288 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,800 dog to socialise with said dogs in order to have the information 289 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,440 passed to them with regards to what is acceptable and what's 290 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,440 not acceptable. Because they kind of nip at each 291 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,040 other to kind of say like, well, back off or you know, they get 292 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,880 the message through those interactions. 293 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,000 Did you do something similar or is it kind of going through from 294 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,000 you and your family directly to the trainer and therefore into 295 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,200 that grid box? Yeah, it can be, again, so 296 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,319 confusing. And there's so much conflicting 297 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:14,440 advice on social media as well. So it was about OK with what 298 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,400 feels right for us. And I definitely thought when he 299 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,240 was younger, I tried to keep all dogs away from him. 300 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,680 And, and yeah, and I was quite, you know, if an awfully dog 301 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,280 would come bounding over, I'd think, oh, my gosh, what if he 302 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,920 has a bad experience? How will that impact on him? 303 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,760 And I think I was almost probably a little bit too 304 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:39,800 militant, the impressions he was having at that young age. 305 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,520 I joined, I joined a group called Honest Towns with the 306 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,000 reason why I joined the group was because you could connect 307 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,840 with other local dog owners. And the idea is that you could 308 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:55,320 go on walks together and it wasn't a, you know, through a 309 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,320 trainer. But what I found was like minded 310 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,320 dog owners who didn't want their dogs to have a bad experience. 311 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,840 And we would meet up normally on a Saturday morning, we would 312 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,240 walk the dogs together, they'd all be on lead. 313 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,560 We'd practise some things like even just crossing paths, you 314 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,760 know, a lot of dogs struggle with that head on pass because 315 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,480 it can feel quite, I don't know, it must put some pressure on 316 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,680 them when they're going to, when they have to walk right past 317 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,600 another dog head on. And we would practise things 318 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,200 like that together and we'd always sort of go with what the 319 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,320 dogs were comfortable with. But it really, really helped and 320 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,200 it was a really nice environment to have people that weren't 321 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,720 saying, oh, they'll be fine, just let them off. 322 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,800 They'll figure it out. Between them is not the avenue 323 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,760 that I wanted to go down personally. 324 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,840 So I wanted a little bit more control and that that really 325 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,680 helped meeting other people. Amazing. 326 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,600 And so so you kept him on the lead. 327 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,280 Was that because of the impressions people had of this 328 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,720 particular breed of dog? Was it your own anxiety? 329 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,520 What what influenced that? Just wanting to protect him and 330 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,960 not give him a bad experience. So at the time he was still 331 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,760 quite young, so I wouldn't have trusted him to let him off lead 332 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,320 because he didn't have perfect recall at that time. 333 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:10,760 So a couple of the kind of foundational things that I 334 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,080 believed I probably still believe is that, you know, 335 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:16,040 people shouldn't be letting their dogs off if they're just 336 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,640 going to charge around and go and terrorise other dogs. 337 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:23,080 See, if you can't call your dog back, then you should reconsider 338 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,040 where you're walking your dog or whether you whether you should 339 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,640 let your dog off lead. So at the time he wouldn't have 340 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,200 been ready. He probably would have bound up 341 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:35,000 to every dog around. And we had some nervous dogs in 342 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,000 the group as well. So it was all about us being 343 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,120 able to be under control. I know that we had a few dogs 344 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:43,520 that were really well trained at the time and they would let them 345 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,000 off. And that was always interesting 346 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,760 as well because then your dog is experiencing a dog, a dog off 347 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,240 lead with more freedom. But we trusted that that dog 348 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,160 would not come over and, you know, wouldn't bother the dogs 349 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,960 that were on a lead. So yeah, it's been, it's been so 350 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,520 interesting learning all this stuff now. 351 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,240 Funnily enough, and we're very lucky where we live because we 352 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,480 do have a bit of land as well. I am comfortable with him off 353 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,120 lead and I can call his name and he will come straight back to 354 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,120 me. So, so yeah, we are lucky and 355 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:15,440 we've got a big garden, you know, and the postman comes 356 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,280 through the gate and I will call him back because mostly because 357 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,760 I don't want him jumping up at anyone, you know, You just want 358 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,760 to know that they feel comfortable when they come 359 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,000 through through the gates, so. You speak of your garden and it 360 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,360 made me think of your tik toks. What made you? 361 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,120 I think you started posting some of your training videos on 362 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:38,960 TikTok, is that correct? Yeah, I did. 363 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,560 So that actually LED into the whole campaign against the Excel 364 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,640 bully ban. And it's so funny because it 365 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,760 happened in a matter of a month, two months maybe. 366 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:56,560 And I literally decided I had so many videos of this dog on my 367 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,520 phone and I thought, what am I going to do with all of these? 368 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,200 And so I started a TikTok account and I thought, I'm just 369 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,120 going to post a couple of videos, you know, cute videos. 370 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:07,280 Then I started posting some of the training things that had 371 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,440 worked for us. And I'm not a dog trainer at 372 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,520 all. It was just what had worked. 373 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,320 And then I gained a following really quickly, which I didn't 374 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,480 expect. I wasn't particularly trying. 375 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,120 I was just trying to get them off my phone. 376 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,320 And then when the media started to ramp up some of the news 377 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:30,520 stories about the Excel bully and some of these terms that 378 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,600 we're used to hearing now, like devil dogs and this, that, and 379 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,920 the other started to emerge, I felt strongly about that and I 380 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,360 felt strongly about how the breed was being portrayed. 381 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:45,280 And so some of my TikTok videos then started to get more 382 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,840 political and I started to talk about what an alternative to a 383 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,840 ban could be. And this was before the ban was 384 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,960 announced or what should be happening in the UK for 385 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,280 responsible dog ownership. That's when Times Radio picked 386 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,360 up on my TikTok and asked if they could interview me and 387 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,280 Billy. And, and from there, when the 388 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,080 ban was announced, that's when it, all the media attention 389 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,360 really spiralled. And I, I did become sort of the 390 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,960 spokesperson, I guess, for what was going on from a, from an 391 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,600 owner perspective. And I think what happens with 392 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,480 the media is they just pass your number around. 393 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,400 So journalists pass your number, you start getting phone calls. 394 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,440 And I was thinking, well, if I don't do this interview, who 395 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,160 will? And so things just spiralled 396 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,360 from there, really. Wonderful. 397 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:35,640 And so did you have any kind of media training up until that 398 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,560 point? No. 399 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:43,640 You too. No, I mean, I mean, you know, 400 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,880 I'm quite fortunate in the fact that my work aligned quite well 401 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,640 with what ended up happening. So I, I work in leadership 402 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,040 training. I teach people how to become 403 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,840 more confident. You know, a lot of the things 404 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,960 that I do in my day job, I present a lot, I do a lot of 405 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,160 public speaking, although normally that's, you know, in a 406 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,160 conference centre to, to people talking about things that I'm, I 407 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:14,040 would say I have fairly expert knowledge on. 408 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,440 So to then be kind of thrust into the radio and on TV talking 409 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:24,080 about dogs was quite different and quite challenging at times. 410 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,440 But no, you learn as you go. You wing it, essentially. 411 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,320 You wing it. Oh, you fake it till you make 412 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:30,920 it. But what an incredible thing 413 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,520 though. It's almost as if destiny has 414 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,760 primed you for that opportunity. And then when? 415 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,920 When, you know, time like everything developed the way 416 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,480 that it did, it was, it was like wow, boom, like the conditions 417 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,680 were perfect and you became the face of and the spokesperson for 418 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,200 this very, very important 'cause. 419 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,960 So what was the catalyst for that to happen? 420 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,040 Just for people who may or may not understand the prelude to 421 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,000 the ban. Yeah. 422 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,720 So I think it was possibly, I'm going to take a guess, 19th of 423 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:09,320 September 2023 when the ban was announced and I actually found 424 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,680 out through a journalist. So a journalist called me up and 425 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,640 wanted my initial reaction. And I'd already been featured 426 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,720 quite heavily in things like the Daily Mail and things like that. 427 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,920 So, so a lot of this kind of build up to the ban 428 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,240 announcement, there was so much in the media every single day. 429 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,080 And you know, every day we were seeing a new attack. 430 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,640 It was, it was strange, almost surreal almost, that you would 431 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,320 turn on the news and there would be another dog attack. 432 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,880 Interestingly, the Birmingham attack, which was really the 433 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,920 catalyst for the ban being announced, we found out later on 434 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,680 down the line, was not an Excel bully. 435 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:58,960 It was a crossbreed and it the owner had had a muzzle order on 436 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,920 that dog. You know, there was all sorts of 437 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,480 different things that came out later on down the line. 438 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,720 However, the ban was announced immediately. 439 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,560 People started contacting me on TikTok and saying what do I do? 440 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,400 Will my dog be put to sleep? At that point we have no real 441 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,320 information other than that the dogs were going to be banned or 442 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:16,600 the breed was going to be banned. 443 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,360 I very quickly reached out for help and managed to gather 10 444 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:29,480 wild, passionate dog owners like myself who said we're with you, 445 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,960 what can we do, how can we help? And we initially just wanted to 446 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:40,120 get accurate information to owners that would support them 447 00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:43,560 and not scaremonger and not make them feel like they were alone 448 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,480 in this. And so that was our initial 449 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,800 plan. And then we learned from a 450 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:53,320 incredible solicitor called Rebecca Strong, who is the owner 451 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,080 of Excel, believes as well that there was a possibility of a 452 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,600 legal challenge. And she was very clear that it's 453 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,480 not a, it's not an appeal. You're not saying we don't like 454 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,240 this ban. We want it to go away. 455 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,720 It's a judicial review. And a judicial review means that 456 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,120 you are challenging the way that that law was made. 457 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,880 And ultimately, if we look at the timeline, the announcement 458 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,320 was made early September and the ban came into effect in 459 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,280 December, which is quite a short amount of time for a bands who 460 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,840 have been weighed up. You know, when we make laws in 461 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,960 this country, you can't just say, I want to create this law. 462 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:35,080 Done. We have a, a process which laws 463 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,480 are supposed to be made. So our challenge was saying we 464 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,840 don't think this ban was made lawfully. 465 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,280 I know this sounds so complex, but it's, it's it was the only 466 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,360 way to challenge the ban. Yeah. 467 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,240 And there was a possibility that if a judge agreed that they, the 468 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,440 government did not go the right way about making the ban, that 469 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,600 the bank could be overturned. So what we knew at the time was 470 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,240 that we would need to start some kind of campaign group and raise 471 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,760 funds because it was going to cost a lot of money to take the 472 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,000 government to court. I've never done it before. 473 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,240 I don't know if any listeners have, but it's you're entering 474 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,120 kind of unknown territory, really. 475 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,680 And then so we started a fundraiser. 476 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,880 We decided to set up a company in order to kind of house that 477 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,720 so it wasn't all falling onto one person and making one person 478 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,720 totally liable. And also to give it some 479 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,680 legitimacy. Because if you think about it, 480 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,320 there were a lot of very scared and worried owners that we're 481 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,240 hearing all sorts in the media and social media. 482 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,360 How do you get people to trust you very quickly and be willing 483 00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:38,720 to donate money to A cause like that? 484 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:44,360 So it really was a challenge, but we pulled together and we 485 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:46,960 raised. Actually it was ended up being 486 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:52,320 about 218,000 lbs within the space of a few months, which was 487 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,520 I believe the biggest dog related fundraiser that's 488 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,960 happened in the UK in that space of time as well. 489 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,800 So really incredible and I think one of the really the beautiful 490 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,720 things is that it wasn't just excel burly owners that were 491 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,080 donating the messages that came through on the go fund me from 492 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,680 people that had cockapoos, but there was an Excel bully down 493 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,680 the road that was lovely. Or people that had, you know, 494 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,680 all sorts of different breeds that were set, all people that 495 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,480 just fundamentally disagreed with breed specific legislation 496 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,160 and wanted to see something done about it. 497 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,840 And when is whenever is there a better time than when the media 498 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,160 speculation and everything was that this all time crescendo? 499 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:41,120 I guess in the 30 years since breed specific legislation came 500 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,840 into place, ever been a stronger time to challenge it? 501 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,320 So yes, that's that's kind of where everything took us. 502 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,000 So we were a huge fundraising challenge, huge support to the 503 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,000 legal team because bearing in mind we had a very, very small 504 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,360 legal team, particularly compared to the government's 505 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,280 legal team, to try to gather evidence, to try to do anything 506 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,080 we could to, to prove that the government hadn't followed due 507 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,920 process in order to make this ban. 508 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,200 And then what we also had was the, well, OK, if you don't want 509 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,680 to ban Excel bullies, what do you want to do? 510 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,200 So then we had to start thinking about what the alternative was 511 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,640 and how do we sort of craft a campaign that people could get 512 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,320 behind as well. Amazing. 513 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,920 And so, so firstly, if we'd take a quick step back, what gave you 514 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,920 the confidence to set up this movement? 515 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,640 Was it the people who said, hey, you know, kind of they raised 516 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,000 their hands and said, we're with you, we'll support you and let's 517 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,200 do this thing. Or like where did the idea come 518 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,360 from and what was kind of like the catalyst where you thought 519 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,280 like I can I can actually affect change here? 520 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,800 Or were you quite uncertain and you just thought I would just 521 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:50,800 wing it? Like what? 522 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,400 What was the take me through your thought process? 523 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,400 Oh gosh. Well, I remember because I was 524 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,720 actually on a business trip in America. 525 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,080 So I was at a conference that I was involved in the organisation 526 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,080 of the conference. So I was really busy. 527 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,840 I was jet lagged. I was trying to take participate 528 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,720 in a conference and I was having, you know, WhatsApp 529 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:17,440 messages and late night calls with the with the solicitor, 530 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,520 with various other people who could get involved, including 531 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,360 some of the Americans such as Dave Wilson, who is the founder 532 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,760 of the American Bully Kennel Club. 533 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,440 And people that were just saying, is this the only option? 534 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,280 And yes, it was the only option. We need a group to kind of 535 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,400 spearhead this a lot. There were a lot. 536 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,160 There was a lot of things going on at the time. 537 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,760 There were a lot of other campaign, I say campaign groups, 538 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:48,800 groups that were obviously against the ban that that we're 539 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,400 trying to make a lot of noise protest. 540 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,360 And I think the general feeling was that a protest group was 541 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,120 probably not the right type of group to bring a legal challenge 542 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,920 to court it. You almost needed a group that 543 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,240 had a bit more of a squeaky image, a bit like a charity 544 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,880 where that would shine through in the in the campaign. 545 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,000 And I guess because we had focused at that point on 546 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,640 educational content, it, it was us or no one really. 547 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:24,200 And I, I don't think I thought too much about it, to be honest. 548 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,880 I think I was just jet lagged and probably under a bit of time 549 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,640 pressure and just thought, OK, fine, let's do it then. 550 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,200 What if not us, then who? What's the worst that can 551 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,360 happen? I think almost that was the best 552 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,200 way to go into it rather than overthinking it to be honest, 553 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,400 and certainly not thinking too much about affecting long term 554 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,040 change in that sense. I think all of us really, from a 555 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,000 selfish perspective, wanted the best thing for our own dog. 556 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,040 And that's why I think a group of Excel Bully owners was the 557 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,240 right group to take that challenge on and start that 558 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,840 campaign because we felt so passionately about it. 559 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,800 Wonderful. And so like for those people who 560 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,880 may not know, like, what were some of the other consequences 561 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,720 as a result of the ban? Because I think for myself, I 562 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,400 didn't have much exposure to bullies ever. 563 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:24,680 And so I can hands up say the media influenced me and there's 564 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,280 an A bias in the back of my mind that bullies are dangerous. 565 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,640 I have absolutely no evidence of that myself. 566 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,560 It is just a bias created through the media. 567 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,640 So I have awareness of it and I'd love to change that with 568 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:43,160 time and obviously experience. But that aside, because the only 569 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,800 thing I would have thought was, oh, OK, so the band, which means 570 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,200 OK, they've got to be muzzled when you walk them. 571 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,240 That was my understanding. What would what were some of the 572 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,400 kind of deeper underlying issues that came as a result of that 573 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,760 bully ban, other than just not being able to walk your dog 574 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,880 outside? And I think we should we should 575 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,080 come back to that though, because I do think one of the 576 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,560 things that we always try to say is that we do acknowledge that 577 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,120 there there were dangerous dogs and there were dogs that were 578 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,320 attacking people and there were deaths as a result. 579 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,520 So something absolutely needed to be done. 580 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,520 So we should probably come back to that, but in terms of kind of 581 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,560 how it was impacting owners or how we learned it would impact 582 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,040 us, it's, it's really interesting because a lot of 583 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,400 what you heard was, well, these dogs will just have to be 584 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,640 muzzled and they'll just have to be on a lead. 585 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,360 And that doesn't sound like too big a deal. 586 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,560 But the reality is when you are a dog owner, for me, I think it 587 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,760 really hit me when I took my dog to the park and we used to do a 588 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,600 lot of training while we were out and about. 589 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,640 So I would take a toy and a lot of the things I would do would 590 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,680 be to play with the toy with him and I, we were practising, you 591 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,040 know, drop it. They're all important things. 592 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,440 I think when you have a dog, teaching your dog to be able to 593 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,800 drop something con command, you know, or being able to whatever 594 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,800 it might be. And I realised that we weren't 595 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,240 going to be able to do that anymore because he's not going 596 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,560 to be able to get a toy or a ball through his muzzle and not 597 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,880 being able to let a dog off lead and run free. 598 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,080 OK, you can go and use a private field, but private fields for 599 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,320 anyone who who lives near 1 can sometimes get booked. 600 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,520 So fully booked up. It's so difficult to try and get 601 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,960 into one and that's obviously if you have access, if you have a 602 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,080 car or if you've got one close by. 603 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,480 When you think of all the people that may live in cities. 604 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,679 And obviously I was in London at the time and I think the nearest 605 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,840 private field to me was probably a 30 minute drive away. 606 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,480 So that's what I was going to have to face on a regular basis 607 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,760 in order just to give my dog a decent amount of exercise. 608 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,480 Then you have things like the loss of health insurance for a 609 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,199 lot of people. So most health insurance 610 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:54,440 providers for pets will not insure a banned breed. 611 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,480 So OK, you can put money aside, you can do all of those things. 612 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,360 But for people who had dogs that were being supported by their 613 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,960 insurance, to have that suddenly taken away from them was 614 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,000 obviously going to be was obviously going to have 615 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,000 consequences. Then you have things like people 616 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,160 that were facing being evicted because either their landlord or 617 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,720 if they were in social housing, the housing provider would not 618 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:23,320 allow banned breeds in the property. 619 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,440 So there's things like that happening. 620 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,680 Then we were starting to hear stories of social services being 621 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,200 concerned when there was an Excel bully in a house with 622 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,400 children, when there were perhaps parents that were 623 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,760 separated and social services had been involved or whatever 624 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,240 reason. Then again, you were seeing 625 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:43,200 people faced with having to give up their dog and then I suppose 626 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,920 neutering as well ended up being an issue. 627 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,320 And I'm not against neutering per SE. 628 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,800 I recognise that, you know, if more dogs were neutered then it 629 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,120 would prevent unwanted puppies. All of the things of why 630 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,720 neutering can be a good thing, and luckily I had no issues with 631 00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:04,680 Billy being neutered. But what quickly happened when 632 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,880 the neutering deadline started to approach is that a lot of 633 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,400 bull breed lines have a blood condition that I can't talk 634 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,840 about with any level of expertise. 635 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,160 But it was essentially causing dogs to have real issues when 636 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,080 they were having neutered in terms of bleeding out. 637 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:24,680 So vets being unable to stop the bleeding in these dogs and 638 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,520 apparently it's a condition that can be quite common with 639 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,160 greyhounds, but where we were seeing this mass neutering 640 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:36,000 happening because of the deadlines, a lot of people were 641 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,320 having serious complications with their dogs. 642 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,320 And that's obviously devastating as an Oh no when you're going 643 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,640 through all of this change at the same time. 644 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:51,320 We actually had it with our two different people in our group, 645 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,160 but who had dogs that very nearly lost their lives, 646 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,600 fortunately didn't, but very nearly did because of this blood 647 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,360 issue. So again, I guess from that it's 648 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,040 that feeling of, well, I was forced to do it. 649 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,400 I had no other choice. I had to put my dog through this 650 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,760 and it's nearly costing their life. 651 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:15,480 So what else? Doggy daycare, dog walkers, lots 652 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,440 of issues there in terms of insurance, boarding can be. 653 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,520 So for a lot of people, if your dogs lived a relatively normal 654 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,960 life or if somebody's listening to this who's got, you know, 655 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,880 let's say a spaniel or a Labrador, you will never have to 656 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,240 face these types of issues. And maybe you might experience 657 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,920 some if you have a very reactive dog, so your dog can't be looked 658 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,600 after or things like that, but it's facing all of that out 659 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,480 once, which can be a real challenge. 660 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,520 That's really devastating and it'll very disruptive with far 661 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,680 reaching consequences. And I think a real shame around 662 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,520 that is like if you had, you know, a group of various dogs 663 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,360 lined up in front of me, someone who is an avid dog lover such as 664 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,240 myself, who have walked them for years and years and years. 665 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,920 I've, I still to this day would not be able to tell the 666 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,000 difference between a regular bully and excel bully, you know, 667 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,320 that kind of thing. So how, how do like how do the 668 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,960 how does the law get enforced and how do they identify these 669 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,520 dogs? Yeah, and I can do, you know, 670 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,240 Speaking of that as well, I think one of the biggest things 671 00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:27,440 that owners did face was the stigma of having a band breed. 672 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:31,560 And you know, we've seen such a rise in bull breeds in rescue 673 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,600 centres now. And I think so much of that 674 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,880 comes down to how they are perceived by people and owners 675 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,240 not being able to cope with that. 676 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,280 I know a lot of people had abuse and have, have people say things 677 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,080 to them when they're walking their dogs or that facing that 678 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,840 kind of judgement that you, you, why do you get a dog? 679 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,880 So you can walk your dog in nature and it's part of your 680 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,040 well-being and you have a lovely time and you get to experience 681 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,200 all these lovely things. So to, to now be put under 682 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,600 judgement and, and pressure because of your dog, um, is, is 683 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,960 really difficult that in terms of how the law works, this is 684 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,520 where it gets really dodgy is my best way of saying it. 685 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,800 And obviously is something that I am in the middle of myself 686 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,840 because I have a dog that is on one hand, is my dog an excel 687 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,760 bully? And on the other hand, I've been 688 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,080 told no, your dog isn't an excel bully. 689 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,560 And this is what a lot of owners faced was that uncertainty. 690 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:29,360 Because I think unless you need a line as your dog and you could 691 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,920 say categorically my dog is the height, the size they look like 692 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,680 the the stock images that the media were using or the police 693 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,120 were using. You're essentially faced with a 694 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:45,960 document that is the framework or the the description of what 695 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,960 an Excel bully is. And you have to look at that and 696 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,560 look at your dog and decide, do I exempt my dog now and have it 697 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,880 fall into all these conditions that a banned dog has? 698 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,800 Or do I risk walking my dog down the street and possibly have a 699 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,200 completely normal life until one day a neighbour reports them as 700 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,520 an Excel bully and the police have to attend and make a 701 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,800 decision themselves? And then you get the difference, 702 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,080 even though these people are hopefully trained. 703 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,120 To know what an Excel bully is, and that's a whole nother, 704 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,000 that's, that's a whole other conversation. 705 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,680 But then you may have difference in one police force to another 706 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,080 police force as to whether your dog is an Excel bully or not. 707 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,400 It's the problem. I'll get on my high horseback 708 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,440 breed specific legislation now is that it's not actually about 709 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,000 the breed, it's about what that dog looks like. 710 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,800 And you could have a Staffordshire Bull terrier 711 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,600 crossed with a Viner Armour. But if it comes out looking like 712 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,760 the description of an Excel bully and the police decide it's 713 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,080 an Excel bully, it's an Excel bully. 714 00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:57,680 So it's, it's, I mean, maybe the vinyl Rama might not have been 715 00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,640 the best example, but you know, I hope. 716 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,840 Hopefully people understand what I mean. 717 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,160 And you know, we spent the Christmas up to the deadline 718 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,040 measuring the dog over and over again. 719 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,040 And my dog hates tape measures. If I got a tape measure out now, 720 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,000 he would start barking at it. But we were just is he tall 721 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,240 enough? Is he not tall enough? 722 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:25,640 He's on the cusp. What if a police, you know, it's 723 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:30,240 that that you're literally deciding your dog's future based 724 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:33,440 off of a piece of paper that's saying, well, if it meets, it 725 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,880 doesn't even say ten of these criteria, it just says 726 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,480 substantial. Right. 727 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,480 Your dog is an XW. That's ridiculous, The impact of 728 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,040 that. First of all, you've got, you 729 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,640 know, severe anxiety because even taking your dog out for a 730 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,680 walk that the dog could be seized if it's perceived to be 731 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,360 an Excel bully and it's not muzzled or, you know, it doesn't 732 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,280 meet the conditions that they've that they've laid out for your 733 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,880 dog. Like, that's a very stressful 734 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,080 life to live. It is. 735 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,840 And So what we saw as a campaign group is that we were being 736 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,200 inundated with messages from people that said I, my dog is 737 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,440 not an Excel bully. But I know that people will 738 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,040 think my dog is an Excel bully. And so therefore I have chosen 739 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,280 to exempt my dog. My dog will now have to be 740 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:23,840 neutered. My dog will now have to you 741 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:30,760 know, and the advice from the government was on the on the 742 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,280 side of. On the side of on the. 743 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,200 Side of caution, yeah, exempt your dog if you're not sure and 744 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,840 you will be able to de exempt your dog later on down the line 745 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,920 should you believe at some point that your dog is not an Excel 746 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,520 bully. Because also bear in mind we 747 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,320 didn't really have sort of any decent official pictures. 748 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,960 We hadn't seen pictures of dogs that had been seized that were 749 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,000 confirmed as Excel bullies at that time. 750 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,560 So we were a little bit blind in terms of what are what, what, 751 00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,480 what do they actually look like, you know? 752 00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:04,080 And so people were exempting their dogs and still to this day 753 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,920 to today, we have no de exemption process. 754 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,840 So people may have exempted dogs and had to have had them muted 755 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,120 when their intention was always to de exempt them. 756 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:14,920 They were just trying to keep their dogs safe. 757 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,160 So you have that on one side and then on the other side, you have 758 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,400 people that didn't exempt their dogs that may now feel that 759 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,080 their dog is an Excel bully and may be nervous to walk their dog 760 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,120 in case they're worried about a knock on the door. 761 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,800 And there is now no way other than a court route to have your 762 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,640 dog exempt. So it's, it's, it's really 763 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,720 tough. I don't think, I don't think the 764 00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:41,120 average dog owner realises the stress that that these people go 765 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,400 through. And, and yes, if anybody's 766 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,680 listening, thinking, but there were all these attacks and there 767 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,680 was this and there was that. I agree. 768 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,800 And we, we did see a rising dog attacks and dog attacks still 769 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,920 continue to rise even with the ban in place. 770 00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:03,520 But there is 55 + 1000 exempt dogs and I do not believe that 771 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,840 there are 55,000 dangerous dogs. I think that there are many 772 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,600 responsible owners who did what they had to do to keep their 773 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,960 dogs safe and their dog would would never be a threat. 774 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,120 So I think that's sometimes when you when you look at the numbers 775 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,360 like that, it does put things into perspective. 776 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,720 Based on what you know now, today, if you were consulting 777 00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:27,720 with the government and they were saying what are we supposed 778 00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:29,680 to do? The public need to feel safe. 779 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,360 They need to see us take action. They need to, you know, we need 780 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,800 to send a very clear message. With hindsight, if you had a 781 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,240 direct path to them, what would you say to them? 782 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,000 What could be done? What would the alternative have 783 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,240 been? I think one of the really 784 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,440 difficult things is that when we hear in the media about these 785 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,200 attacks and particularly the the deaths, which are tragic, you 786 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,560 know, nobody should be losing their life to a dog. 787 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,120 And it's really difficult because you see the media 788 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,280 headline and we very rarely hear the circumstances that we very 789 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,560 rarely hear the, the, the detail about the situation going on 790 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,200 behind the scenes. And I've always been very 791 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,560 conscious not to talk about victims, you know, and people 792 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:17,160 individually in that way. But I think if I was an advisor 793 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,400 to the government and I had seen the rise in attacks, I would 794 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,160 have been saying to the government, listen, if you ban 795 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,840 this breed, that's fine. But at some point, people will 796 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,560 move on to another breed, and there will always be dog 797 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,440 attacks. And if you look around the 798 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:36,080 world, breed bans do not bring attack numbers down. 799 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:42,440 The people who are breeding dogs for a status symbol or for a 800 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,320 weapon will simply move on to another type of dog. 801 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,040 And there are plenty to choose from. 802 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,840 So you face either adding more dogs to the Dangerous Dogs Act 803 00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:57,240 or you start to overhaul entirely. 804 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,040 And I think this is something that charities campaign groups 805 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,200 have been campaigning for for years. 806 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,160 And unfortunately, the Excel bully ban is a big set set back 807 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,480 in in the work that people have been doing. 808 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:15,000 But we believe and we are campaign mirrors what's already 809 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,920 out there. We're not reinventing the wheel 810 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,440 in terms of what our approach, what would have been. 811 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,080 But first of all, looking at breeding because it starts with 812 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:29,600 the Breeders and why, why were dogs being bred to be, you know, 813 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,480 bigger and this that and the other we breeders should be 814 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,920 breeding for temperament. There should be a lot more being 815 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,160 done around breeding standards in the UK. 816 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,080 So that's one of our pillars is regulating breeding responsible 817 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:49,960 dog ownership and people almost would a sort of driving 818 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:54,080 awareness test but for dog owners help. 819 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,640 It's worked. Yeah, it's worked in Calgary. 820 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,920 Yeah, Oh yeah, the Calgary model for anybody interested should go 821 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:03,480 and have a look at because that's, that is really 822 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,240 interesting. And also for people just having 823 00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:09,000 to get a licence before getting a dog. 824 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,080 Because I could have a dog off Facebook by the end of the day. 825 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,560 But if I had that step in between then that might just put 826 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,480 some people off or help people to think about what breed they 827 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,720 get or whatever it might be. We then have proper recording of 828 00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:27,480 dog incidents is another pillar because at the moment how do you 829 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,240 record a dog attack if anyone listening has ever been attacked 830 00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:33,040 or been, you know, been in that position? 831 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:39,400 I was attacked in a in a London park and did not know, do I call 832 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,120 the police? And it was not a big dog that 833 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:46,600 attacked me and I almost felt silly reporting it, but I felt 834 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,840 that it was important too. And, you know, making that 835 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:55,880 process simple, making that, you know, recordable where different 836 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,480 boroughs and different councils can, can have that information 837 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,480 logged in a secure way is important. 838 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,760 Then we have education, you know, education in schools, 839 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:10,400 educating children, educating owners about dogs, I think is 840 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,680 really key. And then finally proper 841 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,480 enforcement of the law because we've always seen stories of 842 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,120 people that have been abusive to dogs and animals that have been 843 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,880 given AI don't know, two year ban on keeping an animal. 844 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,120 And I think if we, if we could get, you know, if we could get 845 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,920 really decent enforcement of the law, then that would help as 846 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,760 well. By the sounds of it, the end of 847 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,840 something is being done, but the energy is going in all the wrong 848 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,120 places. What do you think that says 849 00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:42,240 about us as a society in general when it comes to you know? 850 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:49,360 Banners, it's rules over what the right thing to do is, and 851 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,520 this is what we're seeing. And actually, I can't remember 852 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,640 which police force, but I remember seeing a police force 853 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:58,320 saying, actually coming out themselves and saying if they 854 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,600 get a call to say, I believe somebody has an Excel bully 855 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,200 that's not registered, that's not exempt, they have to go and 856 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,680 attend that call. So they may shop at somebody's 857 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,720 house where they may not have an Excel bully or they may, you 858 00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:15,440 know, they can have a well behaved dog, whatever it might 859 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,040 be. That dog doesn't need to have 860 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,640 shown any signs of danger. They just need to be reported as 861 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,560 a dangerous breed and the, and the police will have to show up. 862 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,760 Meanwhile, there could be some dog terrorising other dogs in 863 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,080 the local bark and they have to make that call, they have to go 864 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,600 where the law is telling them to go rather than to the dog that's 865 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:38,720 causing havoc in a park somewhere. 866 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:44,160 And I think that's where, you know, unfortunately our police 867 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,680 are having to make decisions that might might be against 868 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:52,720 their own values of how they think we should be managing dogs 869 00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,520 in this. Yeah, that's a really tough call 870 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,520 to make. So I find it really hard to hear 871 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:05,040 that these dogs are so judged for what they look like when 872 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:10,120 actually it's such a huge influence behind who they turn 873 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,680 out to be is because of the humans. 874 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:15,920 They're guardians. Technically. 875 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,880 I call it guardianship because it's such a ginormous 876 00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:23,080 responsibility to be responsible for another sentient being in 877 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,760 that way. And it feels really wrong and 878 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,960 really unfair that, you know, purely based on looks, there are 879 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:33,240 all these judgments placed on an entire group of dogs as opposed 880 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:36,680 to this the individuals that that need more support and how 881 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,400 and. You're right, it is such a 882 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,040 responsibility. And I think I've got a good 883 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,160 story actually. So I'm in my family home at the 884 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,640 moment so my parents are here as well. 885 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:52,920 And my mum was having an 80 year old colleague, old colleague 886 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,680 round for lunch. And so I took Billy and I tied 887 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,440 him up in the garden because I thought I don't want him getting 888 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,800 all excited when she arrives. And I don't know what how, what 889 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,480 her thoughts are on the dog and things like that. 890 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:04,840 And I said to her, oh don't worry. 891 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,200 You know, he had a little bark when she arrived because he 892 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,480 barks at cars when they pull up on the drives and things. 893 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,120 And she said, oh, that's OK, as long as he's not coming near me 894 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:14,320 or something. You know, she's. 895 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,800 So she did judge him based on what he looked like. 896 00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:20,560 And then later on I had to bring him in and I think it started 897 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:21,400 raining. I'm not sure. 898 00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:24,400 I brought him in and you know, we just kept an eye on him. 899 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,040 I was just really conscious. You know, this lady's older 900 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,240 didn't want him to get too boisterous. 901 00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:31,760 He he's always going to be excited, you know, his tails 902 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,560 going to do more damage than anything else from wagging. 903 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,840 And by when, by the end, when she left, she gave him a big 904 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,280 stroke when she left, said goodbye to him, you know, and I 905 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,640 thought I'd bet when she arrived, she wouldn't have 906 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,920 thought that she would be touching him, stroking him, you 907 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,200 know, and actually enjoying the affection that he had. 908 00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,280 And I do think that if you can spend time around any breed of 909 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:05,120 dog, that's a good example, then they are going to show you, you 910 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,600 know, they're going to show you and turn you potentially if you 911 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,440 if you were nervous or, or scared. 912 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,320 I think what you've done is really amazing and also kind of 913 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,480 all the issues that you've highlighted along along that 914 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,600 road. What happened in the end was 915 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,040 taking the government to court. Where? 916 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:23,800 Where did that go? I think. 917 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,720 Where are we? So we're, we're, it's 918 00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:29,160 interesting because we've been to court so many times and 919 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,680 there's been so many hurdles. And so we had to go to court 920 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,240 just to get permission to go forward to the judicial review. 921 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,520 So we got permission originally. So that was a good success 922 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:45,160 because not many actually make it to court properly, make it to 923 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,400 that stage. So that judge felt that we had 924 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,560 an arguable case. Then we had the full judicial 925 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:55,920 review and the judge took it away and ruled with the 926 00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,520 government and said that, you know, the, the, I don't know 927 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,280 what the correct wording, the correct legal wording is, but, 928 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:07,920 but we, we were unsuccessful in the judicial review And our 929 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,760 legal team then felt very strongly that we appeal because 930 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,120 we actually did win a couple of, let's say, points. 931 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:20,840 Again, not a legal term, but we did win a couple of points in 932 00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,440 the, in the judicial review. And so the legal team felt very 933 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,120 strongly that we should appeal and that perhaps another judge 934 00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,480 would see things differently, which they did. 935 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,480 So we have then been granted permission to appeal. 936 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,360 So the stage that we're at now is that we are holding on to the 937 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,080 funds. A lot of the funds that we 938 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,480 raised that are kind of have been capped by the court. 939 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,320 So we don't need to raise any more money, which is good. 940 00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:49,640 We've been told, you know, that money you need to have put aside 941 00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:53,560 for court fees. We have been granted an appeal. 942 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,880 We're waiting. We believe it will be before the 943 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,520 end of the year, but I don't have any specific dates. 944 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:03,280 And I think we're at a stage where a lot of people say to us, 945 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,800 well, why don't you give up? Why don't you donate that money 946 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:07,480 to charity? Well, we can't because it's been 947 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,160 held by the court. So we can't do anything with the 948 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,000 money. The money's there in a pot that 949 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,320 no one can touch. And then a lot of people say, 950 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,120 well, why don't you give up because things aren't going to 951 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,120 change now. We're used to the ban now. 952 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,840 And I think what's really helped is our legal team saying the 953 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,080 government should be held to account. 954 00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:31,560 And so if a judge thinks that you have an arguable case, we 955 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,040 may not succeed or we may succeed and then the government 956 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,920 may go and do things all correctly and the ban will still 957 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,520 go ahead. But it's still very important to 958 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,800 challenge. And I think particularly what 959 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,440 we've all learned from this is when it comes to animal welfare, 960 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,800 the government doesn't always have the best track record. 961 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:53,920 And so we do need to take a stand when it's when we can. 962 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,880 And so yeah, we continue or definitely our legal team 963 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,600 continue. We they are, they are always 964 00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,160 working incredibly hard. Well, you continue to because 965 00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,800 you showed up for a podcast and you're sharing your story. 966 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,000 And I think it's amazing that more people will will understand 967 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,520 a bit more nuance with regards to what is actually going on. 968 00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,920 And I'm curious, and I know that you're part of the big group, 969 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,840 but what has been the personal cost to you through this 970 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:26,400 journey? Gosh, that's a very deep 971 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,280 question. Well, my my life and my 972 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:36,160 relationship were what, one sort of, yeah, definitely had some 973 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,000 personal things that happened in my life over the course of the 974 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,760 bang coming into place. And today that has definitely 975 00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,880 changed my life. Although, you know, I'm in a 976 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,880 good place now, so that's fine. And definitely from a business 977 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,880 perspective as well. The amount of time that it took 978 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,040 up because when a journalist is calling you at 7:00 in the 979 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,520 morning asking you to do a radio interview at midday or you know, 980 00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,920 they're calling you the night before to try and get you on for 981 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:09,120 the breakfast show. It was a case of I can't say no. 982 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,600 I have to say yes to this because first of all, if I can 983 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,200 convince somebody or if I can talk some sense, or I can be the 984 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,960 counter argument to the people that are saying, you know, 985 00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,160 euthanize all these dogs and then I need to do it. 986 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:27,440 So I definitely, yeah, it definitely cost me personally 987 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,040 and from a business perspective. But I just think that things 988 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,760 come back around and you go through these experiences for a 989 00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,320 reason. And I've learned so much through 990 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:42,440 this experience, learned so much about the law, can always say 991 00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,000 that me and the rest of don't Buy Me licence may have taken 992 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,680 the government to court, which is quite cool. 993 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,160 I know if my grandma was still alive, she would love that. 994 00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,680 And I've met some incredible people along, I mean, the people 995 00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:00,480 in the dog world. And, and I was never involved in 996 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,200 in the dog world before. But I think when you're in you, 997 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,600 you can't escape. You're in SO. 998 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,960 I completely and that's. Actually a pleasure. 999 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,480 It really is like, I feel like people are just wired 1000 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,560 differently, not better or worse, but just there's a, 1001 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,800 there's a different kind of, I guess, underlying understanding 1002 00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,680 also of the fact that we are responsible for these creatures 1003 00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:23,880 who can't advocate for themselves. 1004 00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:26,360 So I think it's absolutely incredible that people have 1005 00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,440 taken that responsibility on people such as yourself and the 1006 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:33,520 people that, you know, work with you to kind of change the way 1007 00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,240 that people view these animals and then also kind of like the 1008 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,760 environments that they get to experience life in. 1009 00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:45,320 And what would you say to people who are considering potentially 1010 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:50,280 starting grassroots movements or, you know, see some sort of 1011 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,800 adjustment or change that needs to happen? 1012 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:54,680 Like what? What would you tell them to 1013 00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,920 affect change? Yeah, it's such a great 1014 00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,680 question. And I think so important. 1015 00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,000 And this is I think where we we did thrive. 1016 00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,680 And a lot of what I do in my day job came into this because I 1017 00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,880 literally go into companies and I tell them about how to help 1018 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,320 people to feel valued and how to build a good culture. 1019 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,640 And I think if we didn't have a good culture within the ten of 1020 00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:22,360 us that were at the start of this campaign, and it wouldn't 1021 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,280 have gone to where it went. It was really important to me 1022 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:31,080 that that the 10 people in the group, ultimately we were that 1023 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,240 us and our dogs were the most important. 1024 00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:38,360 So if ever there was something going on and we were on a 1025 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:41,840 deadline to get something to the media or whatever it might be, 1026 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,560 no, your dog is more important. If there's something happening 1027 00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:46,840 with your dog, we all drop everything and we help you with 1028 00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,640 that. So we had a couple of kind of 1029 00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,960 foundational things as a group that helped us to feel like we 1030 00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:56,600 were supporting each other and that we valued each other for 1031 00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:01,080 our different skill sets. So that was very important. 1032 00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,800 It was also really important to build trust with the public as 1033 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,680 well. And unfortunately, even though 1034 00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:10,520 if I could have chosen, I wouldn't have been the face of 1035 00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:13,280 it. Um, it was very important to 1036 00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,560 have a face to the campaign. And I do acknowledge that. 1037 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:20,960 And I think what a lot of people liked about me being in the 1038 00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:25,160 media is that I wasn't the stereotype, Let's say that the 1039 00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,280 media was saying owned these dogs and a lot of people were 1040 00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,640 saying, you look like me. You talk like me you. 1041 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,480 And and that's, that helped ultimately. 1042 00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,440 So I think I think that's important. 1043 00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:42,720 And I also think leveraging any connections that you have that 1044 00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,920 can support you. So we have the amazing Sophie 1045 00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,400 Taylor from Taylor and Floof who does kind of very cool dog 1046 00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:53,080 accessories and things, who funny enough, I used to walk 1047 00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:57,360 Billy with immediately messaged me and said, how can I help? 1048 00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,920 And I said, please, can you design A logo for us? 1049 01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,800 This is our name. We've thought of it, you know. 1050 01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:08,160 Within within hours, she had the logo back to us, you know, free 1051 01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,440 of charge. I had another friend design the 1052 01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,640 whole website for us. Leverage everything you can 1053 01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,280 because when you are, you can't do it all yourself. 1054 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,280 So yeah, I think they're, they are some of the real key things. 1055 01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,800 And then I think being really clear about your message for us, 1056 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,320 US, don't ban me was the obvious one. 1057 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:30,680 We had a lot of Excel bully owners that were following us 1058 01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,920 for that purpose. And the legal challenge, but 1059 01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,640 really conveying what the alternative was, was how to 1060 01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:37,640 bring other dog owners on board as well. 1061 01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,880 Because our pillars are not, you know, overly detailed, but 1062 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:42,320 they're things that everyone can agree with. 1063 01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:44,720 Do we want responsible dog ownership in the UK? 1064 01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,120 Yes. Is regulating breeding a good 1065 01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:48,400 idea? Yes. 1066 01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,720 So having those real simple points that everybody could get 1067 01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:57,000 behind was really important. But if I'm always happy to speak 1068 01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,040 to people, if they're, if they're campaigning and they 1069 01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,840 want to have a chat about some of the kind of key learnings and 1070 01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:07,520 key tips, always happy to share. So our main social media 1071 01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:10,120 following is across Instagram and, and Facebook. 1072 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,120 And that's, that's kind of where we built that following and 1073 01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:17,920 decided to focus on as well. In hindsight, I think Twitter 1074 01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,160 would have been a very good place or X would have been a 1075 01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:23,120 very good place to be because the media are very much on that 1076 01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,440 platform. Oh yes, that's correct. 1077 01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:26,880 Yeah. Maybe a tip? 1078 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:28,880 For anyone in grassroots. Campaigning. 1079 01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:31,560 Very good tip. Thank you so much for that. 1080 01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,040 Before I let you go, I have one more question. 1081 01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,680 What do you think Billy would say about all of this if he 1082 01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,240 could share his thoughts and opinion? 1083 01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,040 And secondly, what do you think we can learn from dogs? 1084 01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:51,840 What would Billy say? Well, I hope that he would be 1085 01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,440 quite proud. I love the fact that dogs, you 1086 01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,760 know, all our dogs are so clueless and we sometimes say, 1087 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,760 you know, they have got absolutely no idea what we are 1088 01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,520 going through trying to fight for them and trying to give them 1089 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,360 better quality of life and, you know, fight for their welfare. 1090 01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:10,800 I do hope that he would be proud. 1091 01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:15,360 He's he's yeah, we've definitely got similar personalities, I 1092 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,840 think, in the way that we are. And but he makes me laugh every 1093 01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:20,640 day. So that's been, that's been the 1094 01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,120 sort of thing that's carried me through everything that we've 1095 01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,160 done. What can we learn from dogs? 1096 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,040 I tell you what, I will leave you with a quote actually from a 1097 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,600 man called Doctor Robert Hartman, whose work is my 1098 01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,800 foundation in my own work. And my favourite quote of his, 1099 01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,840 He's got so many and lots of them are very educational and 1100 01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:44,800 some of them are quite funny, is that he says your intrinsic 1101 01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,440 being, your humble self is what makes dogs lick you. 1102 01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:54,680 And I think that the meaning behind that is that if if you're 1103 01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,880 an authentic person and you are good within, you know, you have 1104 01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,000 that intrinsic quality, dogs will sense that and dogs will 1105 01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,280 lick you or maybe just come over for a little stroke. 1106 01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,000 But they can. They can sense. 1107 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,640 Purely on parts, I guess. Yeah, That's really wonderful. 1108 01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:13,000 Thank you. I'm going to look him up. 1109 01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:15,520 Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day. 1110 01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,280 I really appreciate you being here sharing your message. 1111 01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,560 This was a really wonderful conversation and I learned loads 1112 01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:22,640 from you. Thank you. 1113 01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,240 Thank you so much for having me, Nadine. 1114 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,800 It's been really nice just to have a relaxed conversation 1115 01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:29,920 about this and take a look back.