1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,960 Every spring, a dog with a double coat sheds enough 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,840 undercoat to knit a jumper, and almost all of it goes in the 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:08,480 bin. Or to the birds. 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,960 Neither of which is a good idea, by the way. 5 00:00:11,120 --> 00:00:13,080 Sebastian is trying to change that. 6 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,000 He's a fashion marketing student at London College of Fashion and 7 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,440 he's building Kiora, a project that turns discarded dog 8 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,160 undercoat into a cashmere like yarn. 9 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,120 And he's not the first to explore this. 10 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,240 The British Dog Wool Association was spinning dog wool for 11 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,800 soldiers over 100 years years ago, so the idea isn't new, but 12 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,600 the question is whether it should exist now. 13 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,040 If you live with a double coated dog, next time you brush them, 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,920 pause before you throw it away. This is just a dog podcast and 15 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,000 I'm your host Nadine. Let's begin. 16 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:49,880 Hello. Hi, Sebastia. 17 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:51,760 Thank you so much for joining me today. 18 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,200 I'm really excited to to be speaking with you. 19 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,720 Where are you today? So I'm actually in London 20 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,960 currently. I study here, so I live here 21 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:02,360 with my two dogs. Yeah, they're basically just 22 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,160 underneath me. What breeds are they? 23 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,200 Well, I have a miniature American Shepherd. 24 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,680 He's about 12. I got him when I was 9. 25 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:11,960 And then I serve a border collie. 26 00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:16,760 She's 5 and yeah, they're they're the most amazing dogs. 27 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,600 I'm detecting an accent. Where are you from originally? 28 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,240 I was born in Luxembourg, but originally so I'm half French 29 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,720 and half New Zealander. Interesting mix. 30 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,760 Bit of a cocktail. So you came over to the UK to 31 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,520 study I. Currently study fashion 32 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,520 marketing at London College of fashion. 33 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,480 I'm in my second year and yeah I love it. 34 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,720 So great experience. So you've always loved dogs and 35 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,680 by the sounds of it, keen on fashion as well. 36 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,640 What's the connection there? Well, the connection between 37 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,440 both is this project I've just recently started, so the Chura 38 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,640 project, because that really brings both of my passions 39 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,440 together. I had the feeling where those 40 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,040 two passions had to almost live separately and be done 41 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,200 separately, whereas now I've almost found a way to merge both 42 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,080 into one. And that's obviously amazing. 43 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,560 But the reason why I even started was and how I even got 44 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:19,040 the name was so in 2021, because I didn't yet mention this, I 45 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,760 still have two other dogs back in Luxembourg with my parents. 46 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,680 So that's what the first one's Chai and the second one's Aura, 47 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:31,600 hence the name Shora, because I basically merged both together. 48 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:33,960 Exactly. So. 49 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,880 So I've been working in dog rescue since I was about 16. 50 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,360 So I started in 2020, actually being part of the rescue. 51 00:02:43,640 --> 00:02:47,600 And then in 2021, I took my first field trip to Romania 52 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,680 where I was actively helping dogs, their needs and also 53 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,440 helping in our small shelter that we have there. 54 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,400 And one of the last days of this field trip, they, our remaining 55 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,000 partners took us to a gypsy village where there were 56 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,080 obviously lots of dogs, lots of dogs in need. 57 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,160 And as we were about to leave, there was this one puppy that we 58 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,200 found and well, that got brought to us by these two young boys 59 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,560 and that ended up being Chai. And so we took him with us and 60 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,560 he was, I was so in love with him. 61 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,080 He was like the most perfect little puppy. 62 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,440 We also so rescued another one at the same time but sadly that 63 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,160 1 ended up passing away a few weeks later because it got 64 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,000 bitten by a dog in the foster family, which was super 65 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,320 traumatic for me because at the time I was 16 and I was like oh 66 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,320 wow that puppy is also so perfect and was only like 4-5 67 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,040 weeks old so that was really tough. 68 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,880 So that's Chai's story. Aura, on the other hand, that 69 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,920 one's a bit more complicated because she was originally also 70 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,400 rescued in Romania, a few kilometres away from Chai, a bit 71 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,280 of a different setting, because that was also, again, a bit of 72 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,520 an underprivileged area where dogs aren't really that safe 73 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,720 because there's all these things on the street that can happen to 74 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,120 them. They can either get hit by a 75 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,640 car. She was living on the train 76 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,400 tracks, so she could have gotten struck by train, so really 77 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,000 wasn't that great of a situation. 78 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,839 So then she came to a private shelter and then she came to 79 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:18,480 Luxembourg where she got adopted. 80 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,160 However, the big issue was Aura is she's extremely, extremely 81 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,640 smart, meaning that she was pushing her first family really 82 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,040 to the Max. And I'd say they absolutely 83 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,880 weren't prepared for it. And then after that, she ended 84 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,600 up going into another family and then into another one. 85 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,960 And I ended up being her fifth family. 86 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,600 And at that point she was only 6 months old. 87 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,520 So it was, it was like I was shocked because obviously I was 88 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,680 still quite young and I had just started in this rescue world 89 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,720 really. And just you see that stuff can 90 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,520 go down South too quickly was quite eye opening. 91 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,240 But then she ended up then coming to mine. 92 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,960 My mom was absolutely not pleased at all. 93 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:03,480 She was absolutely furious because keep in mind why I 94 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,880 didn't say this yet. Shy actually came to mind my 95 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,000 place too when he was old enough and all his vaccines because his 96 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,920 first family that he was going to go to actually cancelled on 97 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,080 him while he was already on the transport. 98 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,840 So I then took him in, took then Ora into. 99 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,080 It was a loss of work, like truly a loss of work. 100 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:26,880 When I look, tell me. More about that. 101 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,400 So you're saying that like Ora really pushed her previous 102 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,960 guardians fosters to the Max? In what way and how how? 103 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,160 How does being super intelligent manifest or express itself? 104 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,560 Well, I have two really intelligent dogs. 105 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,320 So Maze being the border collie, the dog who has this huge will 106 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,360 to please, but has the intelligence to almost serve the 107 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,960 owner because that's what they were bred for originally, to 108 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,240 serve the shepherds, to round up all the sheep and do exactly 109 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,760 what the owner wants. Aura, on the other hand, is 110 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,840 extremely streetwise. So she will push every type of 111 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:08,480 boundary that she can and she's extremely food motivated, 112 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,960 meaning that she'll do anything to get to food. 113 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,200 So she'll open doors. So she even opened my mom's 114 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,840 wardrobe, pulled out her jeans out of the wardrobe. 115 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,760 She at one point she jumped onto the kitchen table and count and 116 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,600 all of that. And I'd say what really made it 117 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:30,320 really difficult was having two adolescent puppies at that age. 118 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,880 So they were both 567 months old at that time. 119 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,720 Then I still had Maize who was just, well, maybe like 8 months 120 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,280 older than them. So it's basically like 3 dogs 121 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:45,880 under the age of 2 roughly or 2 1/2. 122 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,800 And having that, mind you, I was still going to high school full 123 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,560 time. My mom was working from home 124 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,200 luckily. So it was, it was really a lot. 125 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,240 And having a dog that's so intelligent really is a lot of 126 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,200 work because they're almost more intelligent than you. 127 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,520 So it's really difficult at times to stay ahead of them and 128 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,760 they're just not happy enough with just getting an average 129 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,080 walk. They want mental simulation. 130 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,640 They want you to do like training sessions with them. 131 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,640 So it wasn't just one training session, it was one training 132 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,000 session or two training sessions per dog per day because Maze 133 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,880 wanted a training session too and try too, and they were 134 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,000 otherwise feeling left out. So that was really tough. 135 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,560 But I feel like what that really taught me was a lot of 136 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,640 resilience. So even now, like last year, she 137 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,640 was living with me in London. It was really tough. 138 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,320 And for her own good, she then went back with my parents 139 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,680 because she ended up developing a major separation anxiety. 140 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,840 And having a dog with separation anxiety while you're uni 141 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,320 students in London is really, really tough. 142 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,200 So therefore we just switched up things a bit to make it work 143 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,760 again for the dog. And then, yeah, that's that's 144 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,040 that. Separation anxiety is 145 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,640 unbelievably difficult and isolation distress equally so, 146 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,160 though I can I can relate and sympathise at the same time. 147 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,320 And luckily, thankfully, you had somewhere else to send her 148 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,840 right? Send them back to your home in 149 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,760 Luxembourg. How did you know that your dogs 150 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,680 needed that extra stimulation? Well, I'd say it was Moon. 151 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,760 It was mostly because of the fact that they were getting 152 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,480 really bored. They'd how? 153 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,080 Did You Know? Well they'd honestly they 154 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,799 destroyed their beds like 3-4 times a week. 155 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,159 I mean I must have bought countless beds. 156 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:46,320 I still remembered auras. First family had the audacity to 157 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:52,280 send me a bell and it was like €4000 worth of stuff that had 158 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,240 been like, broken. So that was like, yeah, that was 159 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,200 probably, yeah, over three and a half, 1000 lbs. 160 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,800 And I mean, she, she destroyed a mattress. 161 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:07,000 She destroyed dog cage leashes, collars, hog beds, so she even 162 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,560 destroyed in another home the skirting board and like started 163 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,240 chewing the door, plenty of that type of stuff. 164 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,480 So I just then decided, well, I need to really pay attention to 165 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,720 what these dogs are wanting, which is a my company about the 166 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,600 same time. I don't really want to get them 167 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,640 to attach to me. So I was trying to find other 168 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,400 ways to like mentally simulate their brains so that when I was 169 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,320 gone, they could actually relax, which should help to a certain 170 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,760 degree. But then again, when you, I 171 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,640 always find when you have two puppies of the same age or two 172 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,720 young dogs at the same age, it's, it's quite difficult 173 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,160 because you might have one quite tired, but then the other one 174 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,360 still has a bit of energy. And then like overtired children 175 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:57,000 where when they're really tired, they, they get even more, start 176 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,480 doing more stupid stuff. So. 177 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,200 Yeah, that's amazing that you are so kind of intuitive and so 178 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,960 open to to seeing how you can adapt to make their lives a 179 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,800 little bit easier, because that sounds really extreme. 180 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,080 It sounds like they both tried their utmost to express to 181 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,000 whoever was their guardian that they were unhappy and there was 182 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,400 something bothering them and the environment, and it only took 183 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,680 you to realise that and figure out how to solve that challenge 184 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:28,120 for them instead of labelling them, potentially medicating 185 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,600 them or putting some kind of aversive tools on them. 186 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,080 I commend you for that. I think that takes tremendous 187 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:35,480 self-awareness. Thank you. 188 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,000 The reason why I reached out to you is because I think it was my 189 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,520 local Facebook group, actually it wasn't even London Focus or 190 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,600 anything like that, but I think you were asking people for their 191 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,560 dog fur and I thought this is a bit odd. 192 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,360 So yeah, I reached out to say let's chat. 193 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,080 What is it? What's the idea 1st? 194 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,040 And then how did you get the idea? 195 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,400 Right. So the absolute origins were 196 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,600 obviously very much driven by China. 197 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:09,720 So I had these two dogs and the more to evolve, the more I was 198 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,080 like, OK, even though I'm still quite young, at some point I'll 199 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,920 have to become self-sufficient if I want to keep these dogs 200 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,480 because my parents were doing me a huge favour to even keep them 201 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,800 for me. And so I was like, OK, well at a 202 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,360 certain point I might have to use out paying for dog food or, 203 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,120 you know, even have my own place to live where I could even keep 204 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,640 them and all that. So then I was very much on this 205 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,200 whole trip of trying to brainstorm business ideas and 206 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,360 looked down that route and try and be a bit creative and a bit 207 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,040 different I guess. So very much started with me 208 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,840 wanting to design dog beds funnily enough and I was looking 209 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,920 for like fails for the dog beds and my dogs love sleeping on. 210 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,640 Is it memory foam? Like there's really comfortable 211 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,000 beds that basically adapt to your body. 212 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,720 My dogs love those, but I was looking for alternatives and 213 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,320 found an idea where someone was using dog kennels that basically 214 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,160 stuffed dog beds. And so I was like, that's quite 215 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,720 interesting. But then I was like, but at the 216 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:17,040 same time, if ends up being like a pillow cushion that kind of 217 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,360 loses its shape and all that. I don't really want to don't 218 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,320 want my dog sleeping on something that isn't as 219 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,880 comfortable as another option. So then I was like, OK, what, 220 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,520 what? Let's let's keep that to the 221 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,520 side. Then I was researching fabrics 222 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,560 and through my whole journey, I guess into researching fabrics, 223 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:36,560 especially because I was preparing to go to London 224 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:39,160 College of Fashion, I was finding out more and more about 225 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,800 sustainable fabrics and about alternatives. 226 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,760 And then I somehow found out about this dog undercoats that 227 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,560 could be spun into yarn. And I was like, wait a minute, 228 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,520 that's actually really genius because while I was also 229 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,440 researching all of this, I found out that so many fabrics in 230 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,600 general, and then more specifically sustainable 231 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,360 fabrics, there's always a few aspects that you wish weren't 232 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,880 like that. Meaning the fabrics may even may 233 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:14,240 even consume a lot of water or you might need the toxic 234 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:19,200 chemicals to process them, or you might still have to rely on 235 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,720 animals being farmed to get them. 236 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,120 Because there's always that home thing, especially in like the 237 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:30,720 whole sustainability talk where it's ethical versus sustainable. 238 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:34,400 So for example, I don't know fur, right? 239 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,720 Even though it's not ethical, it's, let's say, more 240 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,800 sustainable because it lasts longer and it doesn't reject 241 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,720 microplastics. But then you can see it from the 242 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,440 other point of view where it's like, OK, it's sustainable, but 243 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,840 it's not ethical because let's say foxes and so have to be kept 244 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,760 in horrific conditions so that fur can be then harvested and 245 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,640 made into clothing. So there wasn't really one 246 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,600 single fibre or fabric where I was like, wow, that's amazing. 247 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,560 Until I found this dog hair and I was like, that's absolutely 248 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:10,320 brilliant. Going back to the whole 249 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,600 sustainability thing, for people who don't work in textiles or 250 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,840 fashion, what needs to be true for something to be ethical and 251 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,240 for something to be sustainable? Well, I'd say ethics is always 252 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,520 very much with it's a bit like, I guess, but using your moral 253 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,840 compost, right? So trying to navigate the whole 254 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,160 land I guess, and figure out what's what is ethical. 255 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,800 For example, silk. So worms have to get boiled in 256 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,760 order to obtain silk or cashmere. 257 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,840 Of course, when there's obviously also a bit of a grey 258 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:50,960 zone where animal fibres very much depends on how the animals 259 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,760 are treated. Because you can't compare a 260 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,840 major, I don't know, heap farm in New Zealand that produces 261 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,880 Marina wool. Whereas I don't know a small 262 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,520 sheep holding here in the UK where they might only have 30 or 263 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,360 35 sheep. Because I tend that small 264 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,400 holding, the animals lives are valued more than in a big 265 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,800 holding because they're, they're just a number and you know, if 266 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,520 they're not worth it anymore. So that's very much the ethical 267 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,840 part where it's I'd say mostly ethics. 268 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,440 Very they're very much related to animals. 269 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,960 So you usually don't really think about ethics when it's 270 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,560 when you're talking about cotton or polyester, all of that stuff. 271 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,800 But then sustainability wise, something what something that a 272 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,360 lot of people don't know is fibre like cotton consumes 273 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:45,000 extreme amounts of water and a lot of pesticides and even 274 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,560 polyester, a lot of people always think, oh wow, it's a 275 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,320 perfect source because it's don't really need any natural 276 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,520 fibres and you don't need to grow anything. 277 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,200 And you might as well even be able to recycle bottles and turn 278 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,040 them into polyester. But the issue was that is that 279 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,680 a, if you use plastic bottles to turn them into polyester, 280 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,480 polyester garments aren't really recyclable or upcyclable, 281 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,560 meaning that you remove the plastic bottle from the loop of 282 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,880 it being able to be recycled. And the biggest problem is that 283 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,400 synthetic fibres reject microplastics, meaning that each 284 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,200 time you wash them or each time you wear them, there's all these 285 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,000 tiny little particles that are being released into the 286 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,960 atmosphere, released into the waters and basically everywhere. 287 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,320 And that's something that's not controllable. 288 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,880 And so obviously it's, well, to a certain degree it's ethical 289 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,000 because you're not harming any animals directly. 290 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,280 You're not, I don't know, sharing a sheep that might be 291 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:49,440 shared in like a difficult or not great way, but at the same 292 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:54,240 time you're harming sea life because all those microplastics 293 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,000 are then going into the oceans and then you're harming them 294 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,920 like that so very much indirectly. 295 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,680 And then being consumed by humans as well, which just 296 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,520 continues that cycle. Interesting. 297 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,599 So if there's something to be sustainable, what needs to be 298 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:10,880 true? Like what? 299 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,599 What needs to be ticking those boxes? 300 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,119 The problem is with sustainability, there's no true 301 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,599 tick box, meaning that's another reason why there's a lot of 302 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:22,480 greenwashing happening in the industry. 303 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,520 So greenwashing is obviously when you make false claims about 304 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,720 sustainability in order for consumers to feel better, to 305 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,000 then consume more because you're kind of giving them a good 306 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,680 conscience. There's not really any true 307 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:41,040 sustainability definition where one single department's looking 308 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:46,280 at all these claims or what exactly has to be somehow done 309 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,640 for it to be sustainable. And I feel like that's what's 310 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,760 really tricky because then it ends up being up to 311 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,200 interpretation. So my sustainability definition 312 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,760 might be different to yours, might be different to my 313 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,000 neighbours, and that's obviously quite tricky. 314 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:02,320 I. Agree with you so so for you 315 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,920 curious what what do you believe sustainability is? 316 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,360 Well, I'd today it's very much trying to minimise the harm you 317 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,560 create like you do when you create on a daily basis, whether 318 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:19,680 that be through, I guess, in fashion buying stuff that's a 319 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,240 that has bet that has better materials. 320 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,800 So then you know, you might be able to keep them longer and not 321 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,640 over washing your clothing. So for example, for me that 322 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,360 might be buying less, but higher quality and then investing maybe 323 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:38,280 now from a fashion point of view into like timeless pieces that 324 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,560 then don't force me to have to like run off the trends and and 325 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,720 have to be a trip like a trend follow and all of that. 326 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,240 Because obviously there's that whole element of human social 327 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,600 behaviour and interaction where we want to look good, we want to 328 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,680 feel good. We don't want to look like we're 329 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,160 wearing a potato sack, right? Because there's obviously that 330 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,920 whole element of self esteem. So I really do try and buy 331 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,720 pieces that I like, but then the I'll know I'll wear for a long 332 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,040 time. And then so I guess it's a bit 333 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,960 of trying to buy pieces that on one hand are made well and 334 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,880 somewhat are made out of materials that I can. 335 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,080 I guess that I'm happy with being made out of those 336 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,560 materials. But then on the other hand, also 337 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,840 treating clothing almost as like individuals, where I'm not just 338 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,800 like wearing it once or twice and then throwing it out. 339 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,360 I see. So going back to dog bowl, I'm 340 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:37,480 wondering how it's different from things like Kemp or other 341 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,560 natural fibres. Right. 342 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,800 So dog wool would be classified as a fine animal fibre. 343 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,240 So on that front it's more in compare. 344 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,560 You'd have to compare it more to something like cashmere or 345 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,840 alpaca, maybe merino, although merino's a radio wool and not a 346 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,600 fibre like a fine animal fibre. So the properties are very 347 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,760 similar to cashmere and it's a it's a similar process. 348 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,800 So cashmere goats live at a high altitude. 349 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:12,000 They get this thick undercoat during an autumn ish time for 350 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,880 them to be able to be warm during winter. 351 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,000 And then in spring, instead of them naturally shedding their 352 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,400 undercoat, they then get brushed and that then gets turned into 353 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,880 garments and all that. Same thing with dogs, right? 354 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,360 Because dogs then produce their undercoats to be able to be warm 355 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,440 in winter and then dog owners brush them in spring when 356 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,000 they're moulting and then that normally gets chucked in the 357 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,320 bin. And that's I guess where I come 358 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,880 in. How is the wool currently being 359 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:42,800 sourced? Right. 360 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,840 So it's currently being crowdsourced through breeders, 361 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,600 groomers and dog owners. I guess currently the ones that 362 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,280 supply me most with dog undercoat are dog breeders, 363 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,880 because especially certain dog breeders, whether it be for 364 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,840 example, Tibetan Mastiff dog breeders or even people who are 365 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,760 part of a club and then the entire club or most of the club 366 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,120 then collects for me. So that's the case with the 367 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:12,960 Bernese Mountain Dog Club in the UK where the club secretary has 368 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,200 been very engaged in this project and then she's gotten a 369 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,880 lot of the members to collect the undercoats. 370 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,560 Then they when they I have like a dog show, they then bring it 371 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,360 to the dog show. She then puts it all into a bag 372 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,080 and then it gets sent off to me. Amazing. 373 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,120 Do they get payment for it? Right. 374 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:34,040 So currently not, but I have everything written down in an 375 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,520 Excel spreadsheet. You even have access to the 376 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,960 Excel spreadsheet as an individual out there. 377 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,520 So you can basically go into this Excel spreadsheet and see 378 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,440 who's collected what. Obviously in the public one, 379 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,680 everyone's an anonymous donor, but in my private ones, I 380 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,120 obviously know who who's sent Watts in. 381 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,800 So the idea is very much in the future and to then pay. 382 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,200 However, I haven't yet completely figured out how I 383 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,080 want to do that because my current idea is that in any 384 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,960 case, because I love dogs and all that, the true idea has 385 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,960 always been to so that a certain amount of money goes back to 386 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,320 dogs and needs. So my current idea is that let's 387 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:19,480 say at least 25% of the money per kilogramme has to go to a 388 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,680 dog charity. And my idea is also that I could 389 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,240 have quite a long list of dog charities so that people can 390 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,120 truly pick a dog charity that they love and support as opposed 391 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:33,360 to just picking a charity. Like, I don't know, one out of 392 00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,840 five, they might have a list of like 40-40, fifty, just because 393 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,080 I want people to truly be engaged in it. 394 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,080 And I also find that especially in let's say the dog breeds 395 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,720 world, whether it be dog breeders, but even passionate 396 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,320 owners of dogs, you oftentimes tend to be be passionate about a 397 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,440 certain breed. So let's say Husky owners, they 398 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,280 they feel much more passionate about then their donations going 399 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,520 to a Husky rescue as opposed to it maybe then going to a golden 400 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,000 retriever rescue for example. That's lovely. 401 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,600 It's nice that you've factored that in. 402 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,840 The first thing that comes to mind, just thinking that there 403 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,280 might potentially be some kind of commercial exchange when it 404 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,480 comes to dog wool, is as soon as there's a market for this, 405 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:20,720 because also is this going to be marketed as luxury? 406 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,640 Well, I'd say it's quite difficult to not to market it as 407 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,720 luxury just because a fibre like dog wool will never be able to 408 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,600 compete with something like polyester cotton because the 409 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,240 sheer amount of work needed to get this undercoat is 410 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,920 incomparable with something like polyester, yes, I'd say luxury 411 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,640 maybe like maybe a bit down premium luxury, something along 412 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,000 those lines. OK. 413 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,400 So, so if this, if dog will find its market and it becomes a 414 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,280 luxury premium item, there will you know, there will obviously 415 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,200 become like there will be a supply chain and as part of that 416 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,040 supply chain, someone will be benefiting, there will be money. 417 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,920 And so if this becomes a premium product, the sold at a premium 418 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,880 price, it incentivizes the people who produce the wool in 419 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,560 the 1st place to produce more, which will very likely increase 420 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,280 breed breeding, right? Which means we have even more 421 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,200 dogs. Right, the way I always see it 422 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,040 is so dog wool isn't anything new, right? 423 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:31,360 It's existed for ages. It's existed really for a long 424 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:33,840 time. The indigenous people in North 425 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,560 America already used it. And then here in the UK, about 426 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,080 100 years ago, there was actually something called the 427 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,280 British Dogwell Association, which a lot of people don't know 428 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,920 about. So it's basically the same idea 429 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:50,280 as what I'm currently doing, but obviously adapted to that time 430 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,000 where people were sending in the undercoat and then instead of 431 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,320 selling the products made, the products were then being netted 432 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,080 up by volunteers and then those products were then being given 433 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,840 for free to soldiers who were in hospital because there was a 434 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,800 shortage of war. So the idea itself isn't new. 435 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,760 I'd say the reason why it's never taken off fully is because 436 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,560 The thing is that dog owners are very obviously they're the 437 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,520 individuals, they love their dogs. 438 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,400 If they get a sense that dogs are being misused, are being 439 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,600 exploited, they can immediately back out and then they won't 440 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,040 give you the undercoat anymore. So your supply chain of dog 441 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,360 owners, breeders, groomers has a lot of power, which in other 442 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,320 industries isn't the case because in other industries, 443 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,160 your average cotton farm or so, if he doesn't sell his cotton, 444 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,760 he's not being paid and he might not survive. 445 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,200 So coming back to your question, I'd say if you do it my way, 446 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,800 when you're actually, you're bringing in dog owners, 447 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,800 breeders, groomers who are passionate about their dogs and 448 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,160 they're just wanting to turn the undercoat into something more 449 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,680 positive than just throwing it out. 450 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,720 It's a great way of doing it. Obviously if you breed dogs, 451 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,080 that's the negative side of it, but the main thing is that 452 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,440 you'll never make enough money from breeding dogs. 453 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,120 Basically, you're not going to make enough money selling the 454 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,280 undercoat so that it would be worth breeding dogs. 455 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,920 Because if you want to make a lot of money by breeding dogs, 456 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:25,680 you don't breed them for the undercoat. 457 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,480 You breed them obviously for their puppies that then get 458 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,680 sold. And that's obviously the illegal 459 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,360 puppy trade because that's so much more lucrative. 460 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,480 I see. Going back to your Excel 461 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,240 spreadsheet, I think that's really interesting. 462 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,280 The first thing that came to mind when you said that for me 463 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,800 was blockchain. I thought how interesting if 464 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,320 there was something similar where you can actually trace the 465 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:52,040 provenance of a particular I guess batch of dog wool to its 466 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,720 source and then keep the source accountable. 467 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,280 Well, obviously I know everyone who collects for me, right? 468 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,280 So I'd say for me, it's quite easy to trace back where it's 469 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,240 come from. And I've obviously not received 470 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,560 any, I don't know, huge quantities that would somehow 471 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,840 raise my eyebrows. It's not as if someone's like 472 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,560 I'm knocking on my door saying like, hey, I have like 600 kilos 473 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,920 of dog undercoat for you because you'd probably need like 6 or 474 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,480 700 dogs to get that much. But yeah, I'd say the reason why 475 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,440 I created that spreadsheet was for ultimate transparency, 476 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,760 because I'm a great believer in transparency. 477 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,240 And especially in a project like this, I just find that whole 478 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,080 element of community of people actually seeing that they're one 479 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,160 small piece of the puzzle, but together we almost create a 480 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,760 hole. I feel like that's, that's very 481 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,040 important also to really show people that, OK, it might just 482 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,800 be 500 grammes that you're sending in or 600 grammes, but I 483 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,440 don't know if 10 people do that, that's already like 5 or 6 484 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,600 kilos. And then that's maybe already 485 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,640 enough for, I don't know, 40 or 50 hats. 486 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,680 So there's that element of like all coming together to create 487 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,600 something positive. I see that. 488 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,120 I think because I'm a marketer and I know you're studying 489 00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:15,160 marketing, I know how marketers work and I, I guess there's an 490 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,360 element of fear. Remember, I'm just playing 491 00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:19,840 devil's advocate here because at the end of the day, I fully 492 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,160 support you and I think it's great that you're innovating. 493 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,000 And I realise that you're not the first person to come up with 494 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,120 this idea. Of course not. 495 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,160 But that idea has produced an extinct breed. 496 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,440 Right. Yeah, I do know, Yeah. 497 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,280 So there are consequences for using primarily, I guess dogs or 498 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,240 any animals as a byproduct because typically or 499 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,840 historically they were marketed, you know, to us as a byproducts, 500 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,040 like, I don't know, down, for example, was a byproduct of 501 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,320 meat, the meat, you know, industry. 502 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,680 And obviously eventually it it it wasn't anymore, it became a 503 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,640 Co product, right, right. So I guess my concern is if this 504 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,600 becomes a lucrative thing, it catches on, it gains investment, 505 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,440 then all of a sudden things become about economies of scale, 506 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,640 right? And that's when ethics go out 507 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,240 the window. Yeah, exactly. 508 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,280 No, I fully agree. And what I was going to say was, 509 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,360 obviously, there's nothing stopping anyone. 510 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,320 Let's say someone in China who already has a puppy mill is, I 511 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,640 don't know, they might have, oh, I know, 400 or 500 Tibetan 512 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,400 mastiffs because I'm sure stuff like that exists out there. 513 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,800 Obviously, they just need to start brushing those dogs and 514 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,360 then they can turn it into something. 515 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,320 But to me, we're in like a position in like 2026 where we 516 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,520 don't even have any more that luxury to say, OK, in a 517 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,880 hypothetical situation that might happen to, therefore I'm 518 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:58,480 going to completely ignore this resource and not even touch it 519 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,760 at all. I'd say I've just come to a 520 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,360 point where I've act like really done my research and I've seen, 521 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,080 hey, there's actually not a lot of sustainable materials out 522 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,040 there. Even the most sustainable 523 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,520 vegetable fibre still has to be grown. 524 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,920 It still has to be altered, it still has to be processed and 525 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,880 all that. So I'd say here, the distinctive 526 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,120 factors really going to be that community element of very much 527 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,960 making sure, at least for me, because that's all I can do, 528 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,040 right? I can't stop anyone in China 529 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,880 from brushing their dogs or somewhere else in another 530 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,440 country and maybe like harvesting their dogs and all of 531 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,960 that, I can't stop them. But I'd say for me, especially 532 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,400 being someone in marketing who sees that stuff gets done often 533 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,520 very dodgy. I can only create a really 534 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,480 amazing community of dog owners, breeders, dog groomers who are 535 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,400 happily who are happy to collect the undercoat, send it in and be 536 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,600 part of this ecosystem where we can then turn this undercoat 537 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,400 into something. And the fact of sending in the 538 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,480 undercoat then generates funds that can go back to dog 539 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,280 charities because coming from a dog charity background, there's 540 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,720 never enough funds. You always need funds. 541 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,000 There's always something happening, whether a dog who's 542 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,200 dog, sick dog might need to get operated, all of this. 543 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,320 So I just feel like this whole idea of instead of throwing it 544 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,560 out, you can, you can then donate it and generate certain 545 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,960 amount of money out of it. That just has always seemed to, 546 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,680 I don't know, excite me because coming from Luxembourg, 547 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,160 especially in Germany, there's this whole principle with 548 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,160 plastic bottles. I don't know if you have this in 549 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,120 the UK, but basically you pay extra when you buy plastic 550 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,760 bottles and then you get like a few cents back when you bring 551 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,160 them back to collection points. And it's almost a way of 552 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,200 motivating people to not just throw out these plastic bottles 553 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,880 in the normal rubbish, but actually then bring it back to 554 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,280 these collection points where they can then get a bit of money 555 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,760 back. And it's a bit the same 556 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,120 principle here where on one hand, for the moment you give 557 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:12,040 somewhat financial value to to a material or fibre or anything, 558 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,120 there's a certain amount of business mindset and businessy 559 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,760 people that come in who want to profit off off of it. 560 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,520 But the same time, the moment you give value to fibre, it's 561 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,760 normal seen as waste and it then also gets treated accordingly. 562 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,200 Because currently there's no true system for this undercoat 563 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,240 to go into. Meaning that to me as an 564 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,440 individual, if I just have one or two dogs, I'm not really 565 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,640 going to like think much about it and I don't really care for, 566 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,280 I don't know, 3 or 4 handfuls of dog undercoats every couple of 567 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,040 weeks. But if I see that there's value 568 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,840 being given to a waste product and someone actually is doing 569 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,160 something with it might as well be part of the solution and 570 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,440 actually contribute to it. Yeah, really interesting. 571 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,840 I was doing some research prior to our conversation and I was 572 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,320 learning that actually in places like Australia, they collect the 573 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:09,680 dog hair to create those big balls of fur so that they can 574 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,560 soak up oil spills, right? Yeah, that was really 575 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,360 interesting. That was a really innovative way 576 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,120 of using the excess. How so A couple of things 577 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,240 really. How are typically because I I 578 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,000 have a gal girl, she doesn't shed, she maybe moulds ever so 579 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,480 slightly, but I don't collect her hair. 580 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,960 So how do people currently dispose of hair? 581 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,600 Does it just go in the bin? Right. 582 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,640 So I feel like that's a very sensitive topic. 583 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,680 So it's very sensitive topic. So I'd say it's either it goes 584 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:45,000 into the bin or it gets composted or the one that seems 585 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,080 to trigger everyone, it's gets given out to the birds. 586 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,800 Now the giving out to the birds is very like you need to see it 587 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,240 with in a certain way because people are very emotionally 588 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,040 invested in giving the undercoat to the birds for some reason. 589 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,080 So haven't yet figured out entirely why, but basically from 590 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,400 my Facebook posts, as you've probably seen them, that's how 591 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,199 you obviously you found me, right? 592 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,199 And a lot of the comments, a lot of people were always set like 593 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,400 talking about how they basically brush their dogs and then they, 594 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,320 you know, put it on their fence line and then all the birds come 595 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,440 and pick on this undercoat and then they go and make their warm 596 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,159 nests and all that. Now, the problem with doing that 597 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:30,360 is that a anti parasiticides. So anti parasiticides are 598 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,880 extremely toxic to birds. So a lot of people use spots on 599 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,639 treatments on their dogs. Yeah, all of that stuff that's 600 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:43,639 really bad because obviously that leaves residue and the 601 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:47,120 undercoat, and then when the birds use it and take it, that 602 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,320 can then end up killing the hatchlings or causing 603 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,400 infertility, all of that type of stuff, because they're obviously 604 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,320 really toxic substances, right? And then the other issues also 605 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,800 that depending on how long the hair and fibre is, it can wrap 606 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,520 around birds as hair, birds as limbs or heads or body parts. 607 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,800 And then that can cut off the circulation. 608 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,080 And in the worst case, they can die of it. 609 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,680 And that's something that a lot of people don't realise. 610 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:17,080 And that also happens with human hair, especially if it gets 611 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,800 wrapped around birds's limbs. And I feel like that's also very 612 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,320 much a part of my research that really informed me as to why I 613 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,880 wanted to do this, because there's currently no great way 614 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,320 to dispose of it. And I feel like once I've 615 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,200 convinced people, instead of basically, instead of giving it 616 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,720 to the birds because that might create somewhat of a harm or 617 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:43,880 throwing it away, you can then send it and send it to my way. 618 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,880 And then that can generate donations. 619 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,280 And then that money can then go back to dogs in need or in the 620 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,200 future. People are very much passionate 621 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,000 about birds. I can always think about 622 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,600 collaborating with wildlife rescue that helps birds as a 623 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,360 substitute way of doing stuff. This is so fascinating and I'm 624 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,320 honestly so impressed by all your responses because you've 625 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:09,720 really thought about these things. 626 00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:12,000 You've really, really done your research. 627 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:18,040 And yeah, it's, it's amazing to hear how many, I don't know 628 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,720 what's the quantities, how many kilos, how many, how many tonnes 629 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,520 of dog wool have you received thus far? 630 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,000 OK. So if it were tonnes, I'd be 631 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,600 probably jumping with joy because tonnes is a lot, no? 632 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,560 So far I've received like 33 kilos, which honestly is quite a 633 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,840 bit. Like that's enough for over 300 634 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,560 hats probably. Wow, OK, does it? 635 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,600 What does it get spun with? Something else? 636 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,120 Right. So yes, just because dog 637 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,760 undercoat itself doesn't have enough elasticity, meaning that 638 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,160 if you just use dog undercoat, the garments might lose their 639 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,960 shape over time. Just imagine, for example, a 640 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,720 jumper, the neckline will like get a bit deformed or your 641 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,680 sleeves will turn out a bit weird. 642 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,680 And obviously because I'm very much passionate about things 643 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,120 lasting, I don't really want something looking completely off 644 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,960 after one wash. And also because dog undercoat 645 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:17,200 varies very much so in softness and in length, so in staple 646 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,360 length. So the fibres themselves are 647 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,160 very much different depending on the dog breeds. 648 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,840 So I don't know, compare comparing for example, maybe a 649 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,480 rough collie to maybe like a border collie. 650 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,120 Just if you can imagine that like even a working border 651 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,080 collie. Also obviously that undercoat 652 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,960 they'd have less undercoat, it would also be shorter. 653 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,720 So it's ideas probably to mix in the the, the main idea has 654 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:49,520 always been to mix in something like lyocell tensile, which is a 655 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,080 substitute to cotton because it's wood derived, so it's 656 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:58,200 derived from wood pulp and then it's also a veg from vegetable 657 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,800 origin. So you also are able to go 658 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,400 around the whole ethics point of view because the problem is once 659 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,360 you start using other animal fibres, you end up again in the 660 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,880 situation where you know, how do you really control it. 661 00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,440 However, for R&D purposes, I've talked with Samel and we're 662 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,200 going to also blend it with British Wall and probably also 663 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:25,320 British Alpaca just to see how it performs and how we can tweak 664 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,240 it because I'm still very much into research and development 665 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:30,080 phase. So it's all about looking at all 666 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,840 the different options and what performs best. 667 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,280 How do you process it best? And what's your percentage going 668 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,920 to be like? Is it going to be, I don't know, 669 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:44,560 80% dog wool and maybe 20% wool? Is it going to be 8515? 670 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,480 So that's very much the stage I'm in at the minute. 671 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,280 How do you see things play out going forward? 672 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,680 Right. So currently it's fit well, I've 673 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,960 named it a feasibility study just because I'm an 674 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,920 international student, meaning that I'm not allowed to own any 675 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,480 type of business in the UK. So I'm, I've been lucky enough 676 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,240 to be very much supported by my university. 677 00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:08,400 So they help me in all the stuff that I need, whether it be 678 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,160 advice or support all of that stuff. 679 00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:16,520 So coming back to where I'm at, I'm about to do my first batch 680 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,080 of undercooked processing was a male in the UKI just need to 681 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:25,320 figure out two or three small details because So waiting from 682 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,960 a response from 1 mill because in order to get a high quality 683 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,000 and product, you have to dehair the undercoat and dehairings. 684 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,400 Basically the process where you remove the coarse guard has from 685 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,400 the soft undercoat because the Coast Guard has actually the 686 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,600 outer layer of the coat that protect the dog from the rain 687 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,560 and the soft undercoats. Obviously what keeps the dog 688 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,960 warm. But the Corsa guard hairs are 689 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,680 very much like almost human hair where like they feel a bit 690 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,840 different. They're they're quite coarse. 691 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,360 They don't really, I don't know, mingle together. 692 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,280 They're just they're there. So I basically need to get those 693 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:09,000 out so that the end product doesn't shed these guard hairs. 694 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,320 So I'm going to do that. And then, yeah, I'm hoping to 695 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,440 get my first few products, well, samples I guess, this summer. 696 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,640 And then if I'm very lucky, I can have a few hats out by end 697 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,840 of the year. Lovely. 698 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,320 Who do you aspire to or not aspire to Like? 699 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,520 Who are you inspired by in the fashion world? 700 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:36,400 I'd say that's very tricky question just because I feel 701 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:41,120 like I, I'd say from an ethics point of view and sustainability 702 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,040 point of view, Stella McCartney, because she's very much known 703 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,520 for her sustainability, animal rights advocacy, all of that. 704 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:53,400 Although she does use wool, so she might be interested in using 705 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,640 dark undercoat instead of this sometime in the future. 706 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,760 But then maybe in the fashion industry, I'd say from an 707 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,400 aesthetics point of view, probably someone like Tom Ford. 708 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,960 Although, you know, just because someone has great aesthetics and 709 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,920 a great vision and all of that doesn't mean they're very much, 710 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,120 I don't know, sustainable and all of that, because I feel like 711 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,240 those things often don't really coexist. 712 00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:19,880 So it's quite a difficult one, but yeah. 713 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,560 So if you're going to choose a design style, it's going to be 714 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,840 clean lines, simple silhouettes, that type of thing. 715 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,240 I'd say so because I feel like that's also what dog undercoat 716 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:33,040 is, right? My goal is very much not to have 717 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,160 to dye it, so I'm hoping to be able to separate it into 718 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,960 different colours. So maybe I might have later on 719 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,480 like 8 or 10 colours so that I can separate it depending on the 720 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,440 colour. And then that gives me a few 721 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,320 variations. I'd say. 722 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,640 I've always been really like intrigued in this whole idea of 723 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,040 turning it into something that doesn't look like it's dog 724 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,600 undercoat. So I really would love to turn 725 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,880 it into something where at the moment you actually say that 726 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,640 it's dog undercoat. People like people's jaw just 727 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,560 drop down because they're like, what? 728 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,280 And I actually have a few samples of finished made 729 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,160 products and like yarn and I've I always take them around with 730 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:14,800 me. They're not my own, but I 731 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,880 managed to source some. And when people actually feel 732 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:19,840 it, they're absolutely gobsmacked. 733 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,880 Like they are so shocked. And I feel like dog undercoat 734 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,120 has like, to a certain degree has a bit of like a bad 735 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,760 reputation because there are quite a few small businesses, 736 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,320 let's say on Ed seals. So that offer that type of 737 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,440 service, obviously to an individual level. 738 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,160 But there of course, because it's very much on a small scale 739 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,080 and you know, handmade and all of that, I'd say that the 740 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,760 processing isn't necessarily ideal. 741 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,000 So, you know, it might be that a bit of dog smell stays in the 742 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,920 garment or that because it's hand spun, it's obviously a bit 743 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,960 different than when it's done on a machine. 744 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,960 As I'd say, I'm quite lucky that I've had this opportunity where 745 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,960 these two males are happy to work with me and experiment with 746 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,480 me with their proper machinery and really willing to give that 747 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,840 all to create the best result for me. 748 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:11,760 That's amazing. How do they how would they 749 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,720 normally get rid of the smell? Do they wash all of the fibres 750 00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:16,720 before they start working with it or? 751 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,920 Yeah, so basically dog undercoat itself, like actual fibre 752 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,680 doesn't have a smell. What creates the smell are the 753 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,480 oils and skin flakes are still attached to the undercoat and 754 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,520 maybe the dirt. And it's very similar to wool or 755 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,920 cashmere because a lot of people forget that something like raw 756 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,760 wool or raw cashmere smells horrific. 757 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,480 Like if you put your hands into like raw wool, it's, you know, 758 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,120 it has all the grease, it's, you know, it smells of sheep 759 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:45,840 basically. But you know, people don't 760 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,000 really make that connection to it anymore because they just see 761 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,640 the finished product. Whereas, you know, because a lot 762 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,960 of people have access to the animal, meaning the dog, they 763 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,640 also see how it is at the start and that kind of puts them off a 764 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,520 bit. But they again, once they 765 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,000 actually see the finished product, they're absolutely 766 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,720 amazed. Question alongside what you're 767 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:10,240 doing, will you be spearheading or like creating a set of 768 00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:13,760 welfare standards? So I've always thought that once 769 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:18,280 it goes a bit along and really evolves a bit for of potentially 770 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,880 creating like a most sustainability and ethical label 771 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,920 for dog war. Basically where you write down 772 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,280 watch you as an organisation or as a label. 773 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,920 This might be connected to me or it might be just a general 1 774 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,960 stand for. So let's say top one point, no 775 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,720 dogs can be bred specifically for the bull or undercoat. 776 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,960 Top one. Then you know, dogs need to be 777 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,360 treated in a way that is in accordance with animal welfare 778 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,400 standards and all of that stuff. Because obviously I don't really 779 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,160 want to be here promoting this whole idea of dog undercoat is a 780 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,920 true byproduct. And then I have people supplying 781 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,000 me with undercoats that's from dogs that have specifically been 782 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,120 bred for the undercoat. Like that doesn't make any sense 783 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,880 to me. My idea has always been you send 784 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,760 me the undercoat as a way of upcycling it as opposed to it 785 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,240 being part of why you keep these dogs. 786 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:19,520 And I feel like that's why it currently works so well for me 787 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,120 where no one that you know, collects for me actually keeps 788 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,880 these dogs for the undercoat. They all keep them a because 789 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,600 they love to breed, they love their dog and they enjoy their 790 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,680 companionship. And the dog undercoat is if 791 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,880 anything and a nuisance and they ideally just would want to get 792 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,480 get rid of it completely. Obviously not every dog owner 793 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,400 has the luck that you do with, you know, having a dog breeds 794 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,480 that doesn't shed a lot. So it's almost like a win win 795 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,640 situation where these dog owners, they almost feel great 796 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,640 sending me to undercoat then because it's just always felt 797 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,480 like such a waste for them and it feels like they are 798 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,440 contributing to something meaningful. 799 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,680 If listeners got this far and they have dogs with an 800 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,360 undercoat, where do they? Is it called shavings? 801 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,160 Where do they send their shavings to? 802 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,840 OK, so that's, that's just a quick precision. 803 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,080 No shavings, no clippings. So just a brushed out undercoat. 804 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,920 Because let's say clippings and cut hair can't be turned into 805 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,600 high quality yarn. Because if you think about it, 806 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,400 it's been cut, meaning that it has almost like a blunt edge, 807 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,160 like a sharpish edge. And when you process it, that 808 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,440 then ends up being prickly on your skin. 809 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,880 Whereas a hair that's been brushed out has those two soft 810 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,480 edges and that can then be, that doesn't really like irritate 811 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:44,480 your skin. But yeah. 812 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,120 So if you have brushed out under code to send, you can send me an 813 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:54,400 e-mail at info@shura.org. So yeah, either that or you go 814 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,920 onto my website, whichisshura.org, sorry, and you 815 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,360 can basically read up about it and then send an inquiry. 816 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:02,960 Well. Good luck with your. 817 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,240 Thank you. Project. 818 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,240 I hope that you that you bring this to fruition and that you 819 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,200 create something that you can be truly proud of and that people 820 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,480 want to be a part of and believe in. 821 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:15,960 Thank you so much for joining me today. 822 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,520 Thank you for having me on your lovely podcast.