1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,480 Hello and welcome to another episode of Just a Dog podcast, 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,720 the podcast for thoughtful dog lovers and guardians. 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,800 I am your host, Nadine. Today I'm speaking with Les 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,800 Ward, who received an MBE from the late Queen Elizabeth for 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,800 services to animal welfare. Les has spent over 40 years in 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,120 animal welfare and protection. He is chairman of the Marching 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,760 Animal Welfare Trust as well as the founder of the International 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:26,880 Animal Welfare and Protection Coalition. 9 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,960 The coalition now unites more than 80 charities world 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,120 worldwide. Joining him is Debbie Wilson, Co 11 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,640 campaigner for the IAWPC Morocco Dog campaign. 12 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,280 Debbie is a psychotherapist whose love for Moroccan dogs 13 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,680 spans over 30 years. She's currently working towards 14 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,320 her PhD, researching how societal violence against 15 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,240 animals harms children and communities. 16 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,800 Together they are leading a global campaign to stop the mass 17 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,640 killing of St dogs in Morocco in preparation for the 2030 FIFA 18 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,520 World Cup. This is a conversation about 19 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:06,080 what is happening in Morocco, why it matters, and how ordinary 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,160 people like you and me are refusing to look away. 21 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,240 Let's begin. Hello, Debbie. 22 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,640 Hello, Les. Thank you for coming on to Just 23 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,480 a Dog Podcast. Les, as you are the founder, 24 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,840 could you please tell me about the origins of the IAWPC and why 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,680 we're here having this discussion today? 26 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,720 Yeah, well, when I first came into animal welfare and 27 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:37,120 protection in the early 1980s, I thought I knew everything about 28 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,960 what was being done to animals. But in fact, I knew nothing. 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,520 And I believe that once I told the public what was going on, I 30 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,320 would bring it all to an end. Well, of course that was just 31 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,760 pie in the sky. But then I thought if only the 32 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,720 animal welfare and protection organisations could come 33 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,120 together and we speak with one voice, we work together. 34 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,640 Doesn't matter what your interest is, farm animals, 35 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,040 animal experiments, companion animals or whatever, that we 36 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,440 select programmes that where animals are being abused and 37 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,880 together speaking with one voice, we would be a voice. 38 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,280 It would be hard to ignore and we would be able to achieve all 39 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,440 this again. I was quickly brought back to 40 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,600 earth that really that's not how it works in animal welfare and 41 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,480 protection. Many organisations just like to 42 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,680 work together. So about 20 years later after 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,240 that, I was involved in a campaign to stop the mass 44 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,280 killing of dogs in Mauritius. And I thought, right, I'm going 45 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,880 to try and bring these organisations together and I 46 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:44,440 managed to get 22 of them. And after 10 years of effort, we 47 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,960 now wait on the government to introduce a law which will 48 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,480 enable us to introduce trap, neuter, vaccination and release 49 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:54,640 and protect the dogs of Mauritius. 50 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:00,560 But the IAWPC got a reputation of an organisation where if 51 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,920 you're at your wit's end, you can't go anywhere else. 52 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:07,120 No one else is listening. Give them a chance to help you. 53 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,360 And I I did receive numerous letters and phone calls from 54 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,120 people in Morocco expressing that they were at their wit's 55 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,880 end. They could do no more. 56 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,120 Everyone is turning their back on them. 57 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,720 Dogs are being shot, poisoned, caught and killed and no one was 58 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,360 listening to them. After seeing a few videos it was 59 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:32,280 clear something had to be done. I decided to then seek to form a 60 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,720 team. I became aware of of Debbie from 61 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,040 another coalition she and I were in and she joined the i.e. 62 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,080 WPC and there's been a breath of fresh air to everyone in it and 63 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,600 we we have two others that support it. 64 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:54,120 So in October 2024, we formally launched the campaign to bring 65 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,120 an end to the likely killing of 3,000,000 St dogs and known dogs 66 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,160 in Morocco in preparation to cleanse the streets, as they 67 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,320 called it for the FIFA World Cup 2030. 68 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:11,960 Since October to now, the IAWPC has literally been working seven 69 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:17,320 days a week, virtually every waking hour of the day to to get 70 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,279 the campaign on the road and we are now seen as a result of 71 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,960 this. The people in Morocco now see 72 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,320 the IE WPC is one of their best hopes for change. 73 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:33,840 The campaign when we began had 22 I believe, organisations 74 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:37,160 within the IE WPC. Now we have 81. 75 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,800 The campaign has gone global in every continent of the world. 76 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:47,080 Our social media platforms are engaged constantly, the press 77 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,120 engage with us constantly and slowly but surely we are making 78 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,720 progress. Once the government seek to 79 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,720 remain silent, they are clearly under pressure because they 80 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,080 tried to introduce a so-called draft law that that would help 81 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,320 the dogs. In fact all it does is legalises 82 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,400 their suffering. So we've now ourselves redrafted 83 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,960 another law which has been submitted to the government of 84 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:18,160 Morocco with the help of FIFA. FIFA have helped us and a place 85 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,840 that's redrafted law which was undertaken by an expert panel 86 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,200 and is now in the hands of the government of Morocco. 87 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,360 So we hope that they will now see the error of their ways that 88 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:36,560 will stop this mass slaughter. They will stop human rights and 89 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,880 children's rights violations. Children who witness the killing 90 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,960 of dogs become traumatised and people who try to stop the 91 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,920 people doing the killing are being assaulted by the killing 92 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,560 teams themselves. So we have a lot on our 93 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,520 shoulders. We are dedicated to bring this 94 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,840 to an end as quickly as possible and we are forever the optimist 95 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,920 and in the end we believe we will breakthrough and we will 96 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,680 succeed in stopping the killing. But clearly for us the killing 97 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,400 must stop sooner and not right up to 2030 when the World Cup 98 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:12,840 start. Absolutely. 99 00:06:12,840 --> 00:06:15,800 Wow. That's just, it's such a huge 100 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,760 task because I mean, it's a global issue really. 101 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,720 It's not a Morocco issue, but how did this even happen? 102 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,720 Is this cultural thing the killing of dogs? 103 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,840 Is this purely because of the World Cup coming in 20-30? 104 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:36,280 What is the root cause, would you say, to what's happening in 105 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:39,360 Morocco with the dogs? It's always gone on as far as I 106 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,120 can see. This has always gone on. 107 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:46,400 All that has happened is since they have been given the the Co 108 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:51,040 hosting of the 2030 World Cup, the killing has increased 109 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,480 dramatically. Every single day, relentlessly 110 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,440 and mercilessly these killing teams are on the streets 111 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,160 shooting, poisoning, catching and taking away and killing 112 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,880 behind closed doors dogs in their 10s of thousands. 113 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,000 And it will go on and on unless we stop it. 114 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,080 I've mentioned the draft law that that is 1 hope we have that 115 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,400 they will see the light and will stop it. 116 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,960 And if not the campaign continues. 117 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,480 But in a way, there's more than the government of Morocco 118 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,000 involved here. FIFA gave them this World Cup. 119 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,800 Their associations, over 200 of them, voted that Morocco should 120 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,520 become a Co host of the 2030 World Cup with Spain and 121 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,760 Portugal. The FIFA, through what was 122 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,440 called a bid evaluation report, were told by Morocco that the 123 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,680 killing had stopped in August 2024. 124 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,600 This was a lie and therefore is a breach of contract between the 125 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,640 government of Morocco and FIFA. So FIFA is aware of our views on 126 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,520 this. As I've already said, FIFA has 127 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:04,240 now helped us by handing over this alternative draft law 128 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,080 because I do not believe that FIFA want this to continue 129 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,520 because it can't be doing that, their image any good. 130 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,360 And they know, and I say again, they know very well as the 131 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:19,160 government now know, the IAWPC is not going anywhere until we 132 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,440 stop the killing of the dogs and the harassment and intimidation 133 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,040 and trauma being inflicted on the people. 134 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,200 So Debbie, just before we started this podcast, we had a 135 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,320 very brief chat and you were telling me that you're a 136 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:36,559 psychotherapist who is currently doing your PhD around the topic 137 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,039 of what is happening in Morocco with these dogs. 138 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,840 I'd love for you to tell me a little bit more about it. 139 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,400 I think 1. So I've had a love affair with 140 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:51,240 the dogs of Morocco going back 30 years when I was first in 141 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:57,480 Morocco and pregnant with my first child and then more 142 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,960 recently on in the last 1920 years. 143 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:08,600 That love was kind of solidified by taking part in rescues and 144 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,920 welfare. Are dogs in dogs in Morocco at 145 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,280 that time though, they didn't. I think it's really important 146 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,680 for me to to sort of say I did not know at that time what was 147 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:22,240 going on in the background. What Les is referred to in terms 148 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,080 of the massacre of the animals being ongoing, we believe for 149 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,560 possibly around about 5 or 6 decades. 150 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:31,680 It wasn't something that I ever that I saw, I didn't see. 151 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,400 I have seen it recently, but I hadn't, I hadn't seen it at that 152 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,760 at that time. And then I had the privilege of 153 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,920 living with a Moroccan dog here in the UK and they are just the 154 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,880 most glorious animals. They're smart and funny and 155 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,200 loyal and just, they are beautiful. 156 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,280 Anybody who's ever had a relationship with Moroccan dog 157 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,080 will say the same thing. There's something about them. 158 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,240 They are just the most incredible, incredible animals. 159 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:06,160 I live between Morocco and the UK, so I have a house in Morocco 160 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,640 and I to have a house in Morocco because of my love for love for 161 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,600 the dogs. So it's whilst I was there, 162 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,920 about 2 1/2 years ago when I was literally signing to take 163 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,960 possession of the house along with my partner. 164 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,840 That's somebody in Morocco who knew of my love for the dogs, 165 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,640 sent me the worst photograph that I've ever, at that point I 166 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,840 had ever seen in my life of an act of cruelty towards a dog in 167 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,880 Morocco. And I remember I was sitting in 168 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,320 Starbucks in Marrakech when this kind of photograph came through. 169 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,400 And even now I can still have almost like a a semblance of the 170 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,280 feeling that I had at the time that this thing that I loved 171 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:50,240 most in the world, obviously, apart from my family, the same 172 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,920 as my family, I'm not sure is it was like this volcano went off 173 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,840 inside. It's just massive explosion. 174 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,560 You know, I was in shock and just if I couldn't believe it 175 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:04,120 was my first sight of the what was happening behind the behind 176 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,600 the scenes. And once I got back to the UK, 177 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:12,040 it it took me to protest outside the Moroccan Embassy about 178 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:13,600 what's happened. And that's kind of the 179 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,840 beginning. Well came into the orbit of and 180 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:21,920 Les and we were we both were I became Les is already a member 181 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,360 of another animal child protection coalition that at 182 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,520 that time. So just skipping back this 183 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,880 pattern of killing the dogs is not being established for some 184 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,640 time. But one of the things that we do 185 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:42,040 in relation to the campaign, we use science, we use evidence to 186 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,400 back up what we're saying and, and, and what's going on. 187 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,080 One of the things that we identified in terms of evidence, 188 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,800 it wasn't just about the killing of the dogs and the nature, you 189 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,200 know, the ways in which the dogs are being killed. 190 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,640 There was a pattern there. And the pattern was is that 191 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:01,800 there'd be an exacerbation and a frenzied approach to the killing 192 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,720 of the dogs ahead of international events. 193 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,480 So again, if we go back to 2023 and I'm in Marrakech and I 194 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,800 received this awful image, it was connected to FIFA having 195 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:18,840 visited Morocco in 2023 to hold discussions about Morocco 196 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,240 hosting the 2030 World Cup. And at that time, the 197 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,640 authorities in Tangier, where the meeting was going to be 198 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,800 held, went to the streets, executed 300 dogs that lived in 199 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,920 that area, 3, 100 for one visit. And when we looked into this a 200 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,240 little bit more, what we discovered was this had happened 201 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,120 before. And what's happening now more 202 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:47,240 than 2 1/2 years on since then is we see around the proposed 203 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,280 FIFA stadium sites, Tangier, Marrakesh, Fez, Casablanca, 204 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:56,960 Rabat and Agadia where the stadiums it will be Wow, wow, 205 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,320 wow, horror. It's absolute horror. 206 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,520 And one of the things that we do Ned in is we send, there was a 207 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,880 time when we used to send FIFA weekly dossiers for photographs 208 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:07,920 and videos and and and testimony. 209 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,920 We still do send them dossiers, but we don't send them as 210 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,680 regularly as we used to do. So just to summarise, there's 211 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:18,080 been a killing of dogs for decades. 212 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,280 We understand roughly in the region of 300,000 a year is the 213 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,120 norm, but now it's looking more like half a million a year. 214 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:31,160 There hasn't ever been a fully scoped out census of the docks, 215 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,640 but we understand there's in the region of 3 million and that 216 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,360 figures never been disputed by the Moroccan authorities that 217 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,360 there's approximately at any time around about 3 million. 218 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,920 There's a bigger question here and the big question is for any 219 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:44,760 country in the world, and I think you touched upon this 220 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,920 earlier, Nadine, there are many countries that have what we call 221 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,800 a free roaming dog population. That's not unusual. 222 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,680 Morocco is not unusual in having a free roaming dog population. 223 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:56,800 Now the parts of Europe that still have them, the UK, you 224 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,400 know, dogs that roamed the roamed to the street. 225 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,840 The question is what do you do with that free roaming dog 226 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,160 population? What do you do? 227 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,280 Some might argue you don't have to do anything with it. 228 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,400 You just kind of let it, you know, let it be. 229 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:13,600 But at the same time, the only scientific evidence based humane 230 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,160 the approach is what Les was referring to is where you 231 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:22,040 humanely catch the dogs, you new to them, you vaccinate them and 232 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,000 you take them back to exactly the spot where you pick them up 233 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,400 from. What does that do? 234 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,720 Over time, the population reduces and the spread of 235 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,960 diseases like rabies, for example, which is endemic in 236 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,520 Morocco, it creates herd immunity. 237 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,160 So what's happening right now does two things. 238 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:43,480 Well, it does more than two things. 239 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:49,040 It's these public displays of the most horrendous violence. 240 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:54,120 It does nothing over time to reduce the population, and it 241 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,640 actually makes the spread of rabies worse. 242 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,520 So what is it then? It's systemic violence. 243 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,000 That's what it is. Now we can talk about. 244 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,320 So what does that seem systemic violence represent? 245 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,080 And I think it'd be great if we had a conversation about that. 246 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,640 And I think it's also important to say as well, Nadine, this 247 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,720 isn't the IAWPCS perception of what's happening. 248 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:19,800 This is the reality of what's happening. 249 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,360 You know, we're not some Western based, you know, kind of 250 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,080 organisation, you know, who's kind of looking in on what's 251 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,880 happening in this country, you know, with this kind of white 252 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,280 gaze. That's not the case at all. 253 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,560 And going back to what Les had said, the IAWPC formally 254 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,840 launched its campaign against what was happening in Morocco 255 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,000 and obviously to promote alternatives, remedies, because 256 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,560 there were enough people reaching out to the IAWPC from 257 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:52,200 inside Morocco saying if we feel at a loss, we've exhausted our 258 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,720 we don't know what to do, we don't want this, nobody's 259 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,880 listening to us. Not only is this harming the 260 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,960 animals, it's harming us as well, and it's harming our 261 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,120 children, causing damage to the development of our children. 262 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,600 And we need help. Our own governments not 263 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,520 listening to us. Please help. 264 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,760 Think as well, just to add to this, the new touch that 265 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,520 yourself by saying, you know, this is a matter that affects 266 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,960 the world. It is, we've told the the 267 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,920 government of Morocco, this isn't a National Football event, 268 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,280 this is a world event. Teams from all over the world, 269 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,000 including Scotland have to say will be there, but teams from 270 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,520 all over the world will come to Morocco and take part there, 271 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,360 Spain and Portugal in a football tournament. 272 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,520 So we have a right to say, do we want our teams, our supporters, 273 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,640 friends and family to travel to Morocco where they have just 274 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,120 slaughtered 3,000,000 dogs to cleanse the streets for a 275 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,360 football tournament? And we'll feedback we get from 276 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,760 people who get in touch with the IAWPC is not in our name. 277 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,560 You want we ain't going. So they just need to see the 278 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:04,920 light. We ain't going away. 279 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:08,560 What they're doing is wrong. The violence that Debbie has 280 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,480 touched on is incredible. I've never I thought I'd seen 281 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,520 violence. I've been to many countries in 282 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,920 the world. I used to think and with respect 283 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,640 to Egypt, I thought Egypt was one of the worst countries I've 284 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,480 ever seen animal violence. Well, I take I can tell everyone 285 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:27,000 Morocco is way up there. You know where where they're 286 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:31,280 able to a mother will come out with a child to try and stop the 287 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,960 killers. And yet this is true. 288 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,080 The killers then take the child, get the child to stand in front 289 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,440 of puppies once they shoot them. I mean, that is how bad it's 290 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,880 come. And to also touch on what Debbie 291 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,400 says, the IE WPC isn't one of those organisations that make up 292 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,200 stories to gild the Lily, so to speak. 293 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,680 It's all factually there. It's in film footage. 294 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,760 Debbie is the one every day that receives all the film footage by 295 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,760 social media or whatever and she has to go through it all. 296 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,920 And I can see in Debbie's face almost every day the trauma, the 297 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,280 effect is hovering on it. But we've recorded it. 298 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,800 We of testimony from parents and from children as to what we've 299 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,920 witnessed, signed testimony. We are prepared to release this 300 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,560 testimony, these films to ever want. 301 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,880 Some testimonies are being done confidentiality because of the 302 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,600 fear people in Morocco have. But we will give it to if we had 303 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,880 a court of law we could go to to show all this. 304 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,360 I do not believe any judge will say or this is OK, nothing's 305 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:42,800 happening. And in fact there was a court 306 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,560 case in Morocco in 2022 where the judge ruled there that what 307 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,040 was happening in Morocco was in civilised and belonged and 308 00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:56,920 belonged in the dark ages. Even the judges are saying this 309 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,880 and the government try and control the citizens, the legal 310 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,440 people, people, the press, they try and dampen it down. 311 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,080 But slowly but surely the people of the world are becoming 312 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,480 unaware and we will continue to make the people aware of this. 313 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,200 And I'll say again, we're not going anywhere until we stop 314 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,560 this nightmare that's going on. In response to what you've just 315 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:24,880 shared, Les, I think people tend to think that, oh, you know, I'm 316 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,840 against this. This is against my morals and 317 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:28,400 values. I just won't go. 318 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,120 I just won't buy tickets. I won't go to Morocco. 319 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:34,440 But actually, they're paying for all of this and supporting it 320 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,720 with their eyeballs. Yeah, yeah, they are to be, to 321 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,160 be realistic. There will be people that that 322 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,360 will go, but we already know there are many, many that that 323 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:47,960 will not travel. What is very interesting to date 324 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:53,800 is the football world is silent. The the national teams, the 325 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,240 international teams, the players themselves know that could well 326 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,760 be that there's they've signed a contract they're not allowed to 327 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,040 criticise. We want to hear from the world 328 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,920 of football. We want to hear what they think 329 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,840 of this. Are they happy to go to Morocco 330 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,080 and play a game of football knowing that children have been 331 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,880 traumatised, human beings have had their human rights damaged 332 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,920 and dogs have been killed in their millions? 333 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,720 To that question, I believe the majority of the football world 334 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,040 will say no. But what we need as part of this 335 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,920 campaign is for the football world to stand up and be 336 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,480 counted. We've got a number of 337 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,080 personalities that are coming to us that are standing up. 338 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,040 Peter Reagan and to name just one, but there's many for Jane, 339 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,880 the late Jane Goodall, she stood up to be counted as well. 340 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,680 And I've never known, I've never seen such a response in all my 341 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:56,880 animal welfare work that just the voice and the comments of 342 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,400 Jane Goodall made need to the world. 343 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,240 People came out from every country thanking her, supporting 344 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,680 us because of her, and it's incredible. 345 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,760 But what we now need is the world of football. 346 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,800 Why are you remaining silent? You cannot be proud of what's 347 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,520 going on, what's being done in your name. 348 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,680 I think that they're potentially, you know, with 349 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,200 advertisers, there might be some sort of contractual obligations 350 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,200 to not comment on contentious subjects or issues. 351 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,960 People are compromising their ethics and values ultimately by 352 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,960 being silent. Yeah, but there's also the the 353 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,000 former players, you know, the the former well known 354 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,160 professional players that everyone, no, they're now no 355 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,960 longer under contract. They've got no worries, okay, 356 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,440 they may well be promoting some sort of chocolate bar or 357 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,320 whatever, but they're now out of that contract. 358 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,520 They should be speaking up on that. 359 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,720 And you could also say that is it not so serious in Morocco, 360 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:03,200 within the world of football that overcomes any contractual 361 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,960 agreement you have that if they all, if they were all to stand 362 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,680 up together and speak with one voice, then if they all say 363 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,640 we're not going, then FIFA and the world of football's got a 364 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,440 problem. Yeah, exactly. 365 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,280 Someone needs to take a stand, but the United stand, they're 366 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,880 not going to get rid of everyone you know in the team. 367 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,720 If everybody in the team takes a stand and says we will not, not 368 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,120 in my name, I think that's really important and it takes 369 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,240 absolute courage to do things like that and I hope that they 370 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:36,480 will. Debbie, you touched on systemic 371 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:42,360 cruelty or systemic violence. Is that symptomatic of the age 372 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:44,640 that we live in? Is that pass through cultures 373 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,080 and generations? What do you think is kind of the 374 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,800 root source of this from a psychological and societal 375 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,040 perspective? I mean, that's a fantastic 376 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,000 question and it's kind of made my mind sort of spin into all 377 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,640 kinds of possibilities really, which I think that's all we can 378 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,240 do at this stage really. We can't. 379 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,200 I don't think we can be definitive in relation to that 380 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,520 question, but I think we can think about possibilities and a 381 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,080 number of factors that are at play here. 382 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,400 I mean, you touched on one of them earlier, Nadine was around 383 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,520 what image does Morocco want to present of itself? 384 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:27,040 The world doesn't want to present the fact that there 385 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,320 aren't enough hospitals for people, there isn't enough 386 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,840 access to healthcare. Youth unemployment is running at 387 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,280 37% right now. It doesn't want to present all 388 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,440 those things, but it wants to present is the dysentification 389 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,480 of itself as a country doesn't want to show what's happening 390 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,320 behind the scenes. So what it does with behind the 391 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,240 scenes gets rid of it. This gets rid of it because 392 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:01,680 there's this what we imagine is there's this perception that 393 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:07,160 Morocco has of itself that people come in from other areas 394 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,880 of the world don't want to see dogs there. 395 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,040 And a sign of modernity is that you don't have dogs on your 396 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,480 street. So I think that's, I think 397 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,880 that's part of it. That's only a part of it. 398 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,040 It's it's known as a country where there's corruption of 399 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,720 government and A and a local and a local level. 400 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,600 It's not the only country, but we're talking about Morocco now 401 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,920 so, and I'm going to sort of explain a little bit more about 402 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,160 that in relation to the relation to the dog. 403 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,360 So the king of Morocco, who's known for being an advocate of 404 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,560 animals, a dog lover himself, he grew up with, I mean, as many 405 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,000 pictures of him as a, a younger person with dogs, you know, and 406 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,640 you can tell when you see a photograph of somebody with, 407 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,440 with, with dogs that they genuinely love the dog. 408 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,400 So they always appear like he genuinely kind of loves and he's 409 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,960 bonded to the dogs that are in the photograph. 410 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,640 And he, he brokered what became in 2019, the 2019 agreement 411 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,600 where it was incredibly humane. Now the word here is agreement, 412 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,800 not law. It was an agreement. 413 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,920 And the agreement was that central government would release 414 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,240 money and it would be disseminated down to a local 415 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,640 level. And at that local level, it 416 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,400 would humanely catch, neuter, vaccinate, return the bugs, the 417 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,600 dogs back into their communities. 418 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:27,680 And, and what's happened? So what the local communities, 419 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,520 they're called municipalities and there are communes within 420 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,720 the municipalities is that they utilise the most when I talk 421 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,320 very brutally now, nerding cost effective way not of nutrient, 422 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,800 nutrient vaccinating and returning the dogs that killing 423 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,520 them. So they spend minimal amount of 424 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,680 money on what has turned out to be getting rid of, not 425 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,920 vaccinating, not neutering, not returning back. 426 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,560 The only scientific evidence based approach to a free roaming 427 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,520 job population. So where does that money go? 428 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,400 What people will say inside Morocco is you get skimmed off, 429 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,760 the money gets skimmed off. I'll come back to the question 430 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,480 because I think there's sort of another thing about sort of 431 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,080 breaking down what's happening. You talked about systemic 432 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,440 violence primarily the act of violence is towards the animal. 433 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,800 That's, that's the animal that's, you know, receiving the, 434 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,760 the beatings or the, or the bullet or the poisonings, but 435 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,320 being hung, people are also being violently treated. 436 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,640 How three ways people are literally on the receiving end 437 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,520 of physical violence from the people who were going out doing 438 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,920 the killing. We only had a report as recently 439 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,640 as yesterday morning and where people come out to protest that 440 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,720 the seven dogs that have lived in in that area have just been 441 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,160 in order, strangled, legs tied together and beaten around the 442 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:50,600 head. That's how they killed those 443 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,160 seven dogs in Mechnis. The people come out to protest 444 00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:57,160 and that violence is then turned on them because we've got 445 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,200 physical violence. We also know that violence can 446 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,440 be a psychological and emotional act. 447 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,920 So we also see people exposed to what is trauma, traumatic, 448 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,840 traumatic incidents. We're seeing people, you know, 449 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:18,240 with very, very clear signs of trauma, ETSD and complex trauma 450 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,400 through repeated through repeated exposure. 451 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,080 And we're also seeing this in, in, in children as well. 452 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,880 So we've got violence inflicted on a, on a community. 453 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:32,800 One of the things that we question, we question this, 454 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,680 whereas there is this well established scientific concept 455 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,600 of the link between violence inflicted on animals, how that 456 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,760 affects human beings. One of the things that we're 457 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,920 less sure about is what's the kind of psyche collective, also 458 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,040 at a government level in Morocco's understanding of that. 459 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,280 So when you go out and you inflict violence on an animal, 460 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,480 you're not just inflicting violence on an animal, you're 461 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,200 also inflicting violence on your population as well. 462 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,440 And then what happens to that population that's had violence 463 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,360 inflicted on it? You touched upon it earlier. 464 00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:12,560 You know, for some people there'll be an erosion of 465 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,520 empathy, A desensitisation to violence, violence and becomes 466 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,120 the norm. For those people who've had 467 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,200 their empathy reduced, they've become desensitised. 468 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,960 They then become the ones who go out and perpetuate the violence. 469 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:26,960 And so the kind of cycle continues. 470 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:32,080 But it doesn't stop there. It never does because then it 471 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,760 goes into the human relationship, intimate partner 472 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,600 violence, violence against society. 473 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,920 The FBI, for example, they put out a red flag, I think it was a 474 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,800 few years ago, that people who inflict violence on animals 475 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,000 statistically more likely to go on and commit acts of terror. 476 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,200 So it's a red flag for that. It's for all kinds. 477 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,720 Domestic abuse as well. Absolutely, Yeah, it's domestic 478 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,640 violence month in the UK right now. 479 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,560 So just in Parliament last night and every October that they have 480 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,160 a meeting about the link between animal violence, animal abuse 481 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,920 and how that shows itself in human relationships. 482 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,240 You know, so it's incredibly complicated and that's why I was 483 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,000 saying, Nadine, there's kind of no definitive answer the 484 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,800 question, but there's a range of factors that are that are at 485 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,600 play here. But you know, having said all 486 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,160 that, just stop it. Stop the killing. 487 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,160 It brings no value to the situation of going back to how 488 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,960 countries live with the free roaming dog population. 489 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,280 It doesn't solve the problem. Even if you don't like dogs, you 490 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,720 know, just follow the science. Killing them isn't going to 491 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,000 reduce the population. It's not going to stop the 492 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,400 spread of rabies. If you've just reminded me of a 493 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,480 conversation I had with Tara at the very beginning when I 494 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,520 started recording this podcast and she was saying when your 495 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,480 brain activates the fight or flight mode, you're kind of, 496 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,960 it's almost just like your logic switches off the part, the 497 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,400 empathetic part of themselves must be switched off to be able 498 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,160 to be capable of, you know, inflicting arm in such terrific 499 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,760 ways to animals and to other beings. 500 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,680 So I think these are, you know, sort of really good questions. 501 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,520 And there's a huge evidence base now, Nadine, to support that. 502 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,720 What happens at a very young cage is that we're all born with 503 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:26,640 this natural supply of empathy. We're born with it and we have a 504 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,040 biophilic connection to the natural world, which includes 505 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,760 nature and all living things and a recognition of sentience if 506 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,000 we're unlucky enough to be born into a culture or at a time in 507 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,960 that culture's development. So if we're born into a world 508 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,360 where already the societal norm is dogs are dirty, dogs are 509 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,920 aggressive, all dogs carry rabies, we have to get rid of 510 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,840 them. And that narrative is coming 511 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,120 from the governance. Some interesting things happen 512 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,200 then when a child initially these violence inflicted on an 513 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,680 animal, the initial response is a distress, fear and rejection. 514 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,200 It will reject, reject through the empathic connection. 515 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,240 We all know this. One of the things that happens 516 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,760 when we have empathy, if somebody or something is being 517 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,160 hurt, we feel it. It hurts us. 518 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,040 And that's what happens to children. 519 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,600 It hurts them if there's repeated exposure and there's 520 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,920 also a societal message that's come in when the child is 521 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,280 distressed. Well, what's wrong with you? 522 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,200 This is what we do. This is normal. 523 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,680 A child then, through the psychological defence 524 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,680 mechanisms, will shut down the empathic connection because it's 525 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,440 painful, it hurts. And what do we do at the end of 526 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,720 the day as human beings, we try to survive with survivors, you 527 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,080 know, try, you know, surviving when you're in constant pain and 528 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,960 exposure to the thing that's causing you pain so it shuts 529 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,360 down. Doesn't happen to everybody. 530 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,280 There are always exceptions to that. 531 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:02,480 But This is why in 2023 and in September, the United Nations 532 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,600 put out a new general comment and will comment 26 and one of 533 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,400 the paragraphs in general, comment 26 makes it very, very 534 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,280 clear that children must be protected from all forms of 535 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,560 physical and psychological violence, including exposure to 536 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,800 violence inflicted on animals. Because there was so much 537 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,840 research and evidence at that time. 538 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,520 It's a building body of research that was clear of the impact on 539 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,520 a child and a child's development when they were 540 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,840 exposed to particular types of ice, particularly violence that 541 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,400 happens societal. It's public, public advice. 542 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:37,920 We're not talking about factory farming. 543 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:39,640 It's a different a different thing. 544 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,960 Not saying that's not without its effects, but we're talking 545 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,920 about public, public advice and there was something else on 546 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,720 that. I think this is super important 547 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,760 as well. So general comment 26 is part of 548 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,880 the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child Treaty. 549 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,360 Now it's the most widely ratified treaty in the world and 550 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,640 had at last count 186 signatories ratifications, every 551 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,640 country in the world apart from USA. 552 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,800 So that includes Morocco. So Morocco have signed, they've 553 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,800 ratified the treaty. Morocco have a very particular 554 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,760 legal system, which is called a monist legal system, which 555 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,840 technically our understanding is if Morocco signed and ratified A 556 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,560 treaty that should automatically be incorporated into domestic 557 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,320 law. See where I'm going with this? 558 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,160 Yeah, they so So again, if there's if there's little care 559 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,680 for animals, the science tells us the NVR is the only approach 560 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,600 to managing a free roaming dog population. 561 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,200 And the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the 562 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,960 Child, which Mark have signed and ratified, saying very 563 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,400 clearly this type of violence inflicted on animals is harming 564 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,840 children. So, but then also, I mean, what 565 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,000 message are they sending externally? 566 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,400 So why would they sign this and not kind of key to it? 567 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,760 And I understand like, you know, corruption, all of that. 568 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,760 But is there a kind of, we would just briefly touched on this 569 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,040 earlier about the perception of the Western world world and 570 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,200 they're kind of keeping up appearances and being seen to do 571 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,160 something. Would they just sign it for the 572 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,400 sake of it to be part of a larger group and be included in 573 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,600 the conversation, but they're not actually take action when 574 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,679 they go back home? I suppose that could be 575 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:18,800 something. They've signed it, They know 576 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,960 what they've signed. They've signed the the human 577 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,440 rights convention, we've signed that as well. 578 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,560 This is this is the other gripe we held with FIFA because 579 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,480 Morocco put into their bid in order to get this World Cup 580 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,600 calls that they were going to do this, that and the other for 581 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,760 human rights and so on and so forth. 582 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,880 They're doing nothing in regards to human rights. 583 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,760 People have their human rights violated every single day. 584 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,800 Certainly those that come to us of their human rights violated 585 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,360 every single day touched on the General Comment 26 and the UN 586 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,600 Committee for the Rights of the Child. 587 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,360 They've now put violence on animals at the same level of 588 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,440 violence in the home. They added this because they 589 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,960 they come out whenever there is something that has drawn their 590 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,400 attention and is becoming a serious problem. 591 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,360 And that's when they issued general comment 26 that the 592 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,360 violence in the home, the violence to animals must stop 593 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,840 because it is traumatising children. 594 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,920 You could look for other excuses as to why the government are not 595 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,840 doing it. It sits them at the moment not 596 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,280 to engage on any of that because they know they're at fault. 597 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,960 They they claim they'd stop killing the dogs, but everyone 598 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,640 knew they were still killing the dogs. 599 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,440 Once you've signed, ratified the convention, as Morocco has done, 600 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,400 you've got a responsibility as a country then to submit and in a 601 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,680 way kind of stand before the committee that overseas the 602 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,120 treaty on A5 year reporting cycle. 603 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,440 Morocco haven't attended since 2014. 604 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,360 But then why did they sign it? Was the right thing to do, made 605 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,080 them look good or whatever. You know, we, we don't have to 606 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,720 do anything about it. We'll do like we're doing now. 607 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:06,760 We'll just ignore it. No one's going to pull us up. 608 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,360 We'll blame the Europeans, we'll blame outsiders for telling us 609 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,360 what to do when we're doing our very best. 610 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:20,800 And also no idea we we can't get away with any excuse as to why 611 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,000 they're not standing up to protect animals like human 612 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,400 rights and protect children's rights. 613 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,240 They've got no defence, none at all. 614 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,720 Yeah, but you have a lot of exposure to very awful things, 615 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:35,800 Debbie. It would have a traumatic effect 616 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,120 on anyone because I guess we keep going. 617 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,000 Something has to be fine-tuned or tweaked ever so slightly to 618 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,360 make this campaign sustainable for you emotionally as a human 619 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,360 being. But how do you keep your edges 620 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,440 soft? One of the things we've got a 621 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,080 great team, we're a small team, like I mean the coalition is 622 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,160 enormous now these 8081 organisations as a team we're 4, 623 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,640 but we're very tight as a team and we support each other. 624 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,240 We meet twice a week at least. We're always available to 625 00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:06,680 contact each other, which includes over the weekends. 626 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:09,360 I've, I don't know about you, Liz, but I've never had a sense 627 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,280 that I'm on my own and that that's been important, you know, 628 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,960 to, to, to be part of the team, but you're all equally respected 629 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,000 and valued. I think it's important to be 630 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,600 very clear in relation to the impact we're talking about 631 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:31,160 psychological, physical impact. It does affect me, effects all 632 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,880 of us. I think we're all vulnerable to 633 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:42,480 vicarious trauma and also to things like getting burnout. 634 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,200 So with all that in mind, we do and we have discussions, we have 635 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,800 conversations about this with each with each other and that 636 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,480 there's a value at times of staying with the officers value 637 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:59,280 just to step back at times if you need to do something when I 638 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,680 say for yourself in order to in order to sort of keep moving, 639 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,960 keep moving forward. So there are very particular 640 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,960 strategies that I have. Some of them I've learned over 641 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,160 years of practising as a psychotherapist, you know, 642 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,920 before that a mental health nurse for 30 years, you know, I 643 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,640 can appreciate working in psychiatry and psychotherapy, 644 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,880 You know, you bear witness through other people suffering 645 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,200 and their accounts of the suffering. 646 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,880 And so coming back to sort of being campaigners now, we're not 647 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,240 robots, you know, we've, we're very human and very humane. 648 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,920 And what brings us into this, as I was saying earlier, his 649 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,800 empathy and love. So when, you know, we're bearing 650 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,400 witness constantly, all the time, or even knowing that it's 651 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,120 happening, it's painful and it really hurts for myself. 652 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,880 I'm in a constant state of heartbreak all the time. 653 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,800 And I could probably cry most days, every day, but but then 654 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,760 I've got a big dam of cold water just up there and I go and stand 655 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,640 in there and go swim. I'm a great believer in the 656 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,120 benefits of cold water, cold water therapy, got a loving 657 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,600 family. I've got a dog, you know and 658 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,440 love. I think it's always the thing 659 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:16,120 that it seems to kind of override everything very kind of 660 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,680 bizarre and straight. I quite understand how it works, 661 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,280 but it does it sort of almost adds this kind of like 662 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,080 protective layer not from becoming immune. 663 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,720 I never feel immune to what it is as Les was kind of, you know, 664 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:33,880 inferring that, you know, we see, we see every day. 665 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,640 I'm not, I'm not immune to it. And it does hurt. 666 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,040 And I think there's something about love that kind of just 667 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,120 goes you do it for the love of the dogs, you do it for the love 668 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,680 of the dogs. And it so far it works, but I 669 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,880 can't understand to make the the value of working as a team as 670 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,120 well and leaning on each other. Would echo everything that 671 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,000 Debbie said in the word that that is for me as it hurts. 672 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,080 It really, really hurts. 40 odd years have been involved in 673 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,720 animal welfare and protection. I've seen a lot, but every 674 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:06,960 single one. To this day, hearts and that 675 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,960 hearts really bad. And that also hurts for me to 676 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,520 see human beings suffering, children starving, What happened 677 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,600 to the people in Gaza, all that sort of stuff. 678 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,920 The children who were skin and bone at all heart. 679 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,760 I could sum up. I remember when we when we 680 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,720 started to prepare the campaign last year before October, we got 681 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:33,680 the help of a filmmaker and he produced our very first campaign 682 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:35,760 film. And it started off of a young 683 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,880 child running down the street crying its eyes out. 684 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,960 And the child was crying her eyes out because the dogs that 685 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,240 were her friends on her St had just been poisoned and she had 686 00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:50,960 bought bore witness to that. He then included other pieces of 687 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,800 film and so on and so forth. It was I think a six or seven 688 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,320 minute film and four minutes into it without anything, both 689 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,360 Debbie and I were in floods of tears. 690 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:07,760 It just heart, it just said everything as to why we were now 691 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:12,480 going to spend seven days a week, every waking hour to bring 692 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,040 this to an end. It is a nightmare. 693 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,320 It's wrong. It's got no place in this planet 694 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,680 of ours. These are innocent creatures 695 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,920 that are suffering and we've got to do something about it too. 696 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,000 So it's summing it up again and it hurts and it hurts every day. 697 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,840 And I've got a film to look. We, we, we know someone who's 698 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,360 involved in the campaign. Pain to ban trophy hunting where 699 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,080 lions, elephants and giraffes are still being shot by trophy 700 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,480 hunters. And I'm halfway through that 701 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,800 film, but I had to stop because it hurts. 702 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,560 It hurts to see these magnificent creatures being 703 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:53,040 brought to their knees and dying purely for sport and to have 704 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,680 their heads hung on a wall. It's in US. 705 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,680 We cook them and I can't stop this. 706 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,800 It is in us to do something about something so wrong as 707 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,720 what's going on in my world. I see every time you say the 708 00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:07,680 word, it hurts. It does hurt. 709 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,880 It's a physical pain. And it's it's almost like 710 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,160 whenever I see any kind of cruelty or injustice when it 711 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,000 comes to dogs specifically, but also obviously so many other 712 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,600 things, it takes a physical toll. 713 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,680 And I'm just wondering now that kind of like Debbie with your 714 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,000 psycho therapist hat on, what does that actually do to the 715 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,280 body? And how does 1 release that 716 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,240 physical pain to have the capacity to do something? 717 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:39,240 Because I, I imagine that similar to me and how I feel, 718 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:40,960 there are so many different causes. 719 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,840 There's a new revolution every week. 720 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,640 Everything wants your attention yesterday. 721 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,760 And so in that overwhelm, both emotionally and mentally, the 722 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,040 result is inaction because A, we feel so small, B, we're already 723 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,480 overwhelmed, we're just trying to get through the next day. 724 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,760 But all of that stops us from taking action. 725 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,240 So how can we drain the bucket, the stress bucket, to be able to 726 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:10,480 cope with and do something about the causes that really need our 727 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,240 attention right now? Yeah, I think that's a really 728 00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:14,400 good question. And I think what you were 729 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,400 describing there in terms of withdrawal, that's when people 730 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,640 have are in a state of hypo because alternative people can 731 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:27,400 become hyper aroused where they can become so driven by feeling 732 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:32,000 angry, anxious, can't rest, you know, become sort of overly 733 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,720 consumed by, I think a conceptual way to sort of think 734 00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:37,960 about it is to think about our windows of tolerance. 735 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,440 You know, so we all have a window of tolerance where 736 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,920 everything's going well, we sit quite nicely in our window of 737 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,680 tolerance. We've got stresses and strains 738 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,920 going on in our life, but we're managing them. 739 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,880 We can to them, you know, life's not stress free or stress isn't 740 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:59,080 a normal part of daily life, but it's when the impact of that 741 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,200 stress can push us into what we call either a hyper or a hyper 742 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,640 hypo aroused state. I think you know, for each one 743 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:11,880 of us as individuals, I think it's helpful, useful, important 744 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:15,120 to think about constantly particular memory, revolting 745 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,560 campaigning work. Where am I within my window, 746 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,520 window of tolerance right now? Am I in it? 747 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,880 You know, there's going on, but I'm managing, I'm coping. 748 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,440 It's not impinging too much on to kind of other areas of my 749 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,800 life. And then also to be aware of and 750 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:36,280 recognise if I got a predisposition to becoming hyper 751 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,720 aroused or hyper, I'm hyper. There you go. 752 00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:45,240 So I know for me, I go into that very driven state and then quite 753 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:48,000 often what kind of other areas of my life can become really 754 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,080 quite neglected and you know, and kind of so it goes really. 755 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,640 And then so to know where am I within my window of tolerance? 756 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,440 What's my own kind of personal hyper hypo? 757 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,000 What are the signs for me that I might be going over into those? 758 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:07,440 And then in a way, have a range of things at your disposal that 759 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,280 you can do whatever you're doing, things are and that you 760 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,400 lean into it. That might be support from other 761 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,360 people. It might be going and standing 762 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:21,400 in a 5° body of water, which is what I do to cuddle with my dog. 763 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,920 I think sometimes, and again, we do. 764 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,480 This is the campaign. Reflect back on, you know, 765 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,080 particularly at times when you feel like you're not getting 766 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,360 anywhere and just look at actually how far you have come. 767 00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:38,640 Because I think sometimes what's really difficult is to feel that 768 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,400 actually you've made no difference. 769 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,520 You've made none. So the thing that you're driven 770 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,680 by the love for the thing in itself, you're actually you've 771 00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:48,280 not helped in any way when actually, I mean, if that's the 772 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,320 case, that's the case, I don't feel that that's the case with 773 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,320 this particular campaign. So, so to reflect on any small 774 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,280 winds sort of allowed to say that you know, that you you that 775 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,480 you might have had. So yeah, you're going to have 776 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,640 tolerance knowing your particular type. 777 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,640 Are you more hyper, hyper aroused? 778 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,240 In a way? It's just support plan, isn't 779 00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:11,520 it, That you have your own safety and support plan? 780 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,960 What to do at times when you recognise that you've come out 781 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,960 of the window of toys? Because what you don't want to 782 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,640 do is to go into a state of overwhelmed. 783 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,560 Because it's really hard to reflect upon yourself when 784 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,200 you're in that overwhelmed state. 785 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,400 But what you might need is people in your personal life who 786 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,760 you trust. You've got good relationships 787 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,680 who are very sensitive. I can say to you the equivalent 788 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,640 of Deb. You're up there and you need to. 789 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:41,640 Yeah, yeah, OK. What would you if you had a 790 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,320 direct channel now to some Morocco who feels in their body 791 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,480 that what's happening is wrong but obviously feel powerless? 792 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,400 I would like to find a way to communicate a message in terms 793 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,880 of how to look after yourself and also how can you help, what 794 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,080 can you do, how can you make a difference, But not just for 795 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,320 people in Morocco who feel physically the pain and the 796 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,200 burden of what is happening, but also people who know of people 797 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,040 outside of Morocco who care deeply about this cause. 798 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:16,360 The IE WPC isn't just Debbie I and the couple of others, the 82 799 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:21,520 organisations. The IE WPC is the coalition of 800 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,200 the Moroccan people and for those like us in other parts of 801 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,680 the world, we stand shoulder to shoulder together. 802 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,880 And the fact is, and I honestly and genuinely believe it because 803 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,200 I've seen it happen before, Together we are strong. 804 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,640 So the more and more people, despite what we think, the tears 805 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,760 they shed, the things they witness, the helplessness they 806 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:50,200 feel, the i.e., WPC for this, what we're trying to do is hear 807 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,320 for them and we will listen to them. 808 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,360 We will support them as best we can. 809 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,400 We're a small team, but we will go out of the way to help every 810 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:03,280 single one that needs help, that wants to join us, March down the 811 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:08,040 road and bring, as I say again, this nightmare to an end as soon 812 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,320 as possible. I was going to say, Nadine, a 813 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,160 message has just popped up on my phone or grow at the side of me. 814 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,320 So when comments and things come up on Instagram, I sort of see 815 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,840 them. So this Moroccan woman just left 816 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,360 a message saying, I'm just going to sort of paraphrase the first 817 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,240 little bit of it because it hasn't translated brilliantly 818 00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:29,120 from Derisia into English, but I get a sense of what it is. 819 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,880 But it's the kind of last bit where she says that vaccination, 820 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,360 immunisation for examples, animals should come as soon as 821 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,800 as soon as possible. And there should be a law in 822 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,480 place to protect the animals because what's happening is 823 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,920 forbidden by the religion of the country. 824 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:49,000 And I hope that God helps us. Enough of the killing, enough of 825 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,760 the torture. As it stands right now, our 826 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:56,800 psyche is destroyed and sadness is a camp on my heart. 827 00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,400 Gosh, that's so hard. That's so tragic when your own. 828 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,440 Yeah, I guess when you, when you're religion, your 829 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,560 government, everything is a contradiction. 830 00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:07,760 It's hard to have faith in humanity when you see such 831 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,560 things. So where are we add now? 832 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,600 So you've just had your one year anniversary for the campaign. 833 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,600 FIFA has got a was it a round table of experts or something 834 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,040 like that to send a letter? What can be done to put more 835 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,400 pressure on FIFA and what else can regular people like myself 836 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,280 do to help move this forward? Where we are at the moment is 837 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,800 that, as I said it right at the very beginning, started off with 838 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:37,000 20 organisations, 81. The campaign was just in a few 839 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,640 countries. Now it's in every continent of 840 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:44,520 the world, Latin America, the entire region of Southam and 841 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:49,560 Latin America has now joined the IE, WTC and are behind the 842 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,400 campaign. And we're talking about Brazil, 843 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:55,280 Argentina, Uruguay, huge footballing nations. 844 00:49:55,720 --> 00:50:00,160 We have always said to the government of Morocco that we 845 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,800 don't want Morocco not to get the World Cup. 846 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,760 What we want is for Morocco to stop killing the dogs. 847 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,520 And that's where it stands today. 848 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,800 We said we're here to help, and we have. 849 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:15,840 We've now given them an expert panel document, a draft law that 850 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,520 would bring all the killing to an end and would make the people 851 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,520 in the country of Morocco proud of what they are. 852 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:27,640 Is there where they remain silent for a while, are now 853 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,600 helping us with the government of Morocco? 854 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,320 I believe that sooner or later the breakthrough will happen and 855 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,600 I believe it will be sooner rather than later. 856 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,120 And when that happens, the lives of the dogs will be saved and 857 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,760 the people will be safe. Debbie and I can pack our bags 858 00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,640 and walk away and be pleased what's happened. 859 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,640 But if it doesn't happen, then next year at this time, Debbie 860 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,920 and I will still be battling a way to bring it to an end. 861 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,120 Because we won't go anywhere and we need public support. 862 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,560 If people listened to us and heard what we're saying, I'm 863 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,520 sure they feel the passion and the determination that's in our 864 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,520 bodies. And it's sincere. 865 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,640 Come and join us. Support us. 866 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,240 Add your voice. You might feel you're on your 867 00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:12,800 own. You're not. 868 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,480 You're part of us. Join us and together we will 869 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,040 bring this to an end. OK, what? 870 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:20,400 What? What's the practical and 871 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,120 actionable steps here? Well, if they get in touch, we 872 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,040 can certainly provide them with all the information they need 873 00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:30,320 where they can make a difference by writing to the government of 874 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,040 Morocco to write right into FIFA, getting messages in the 875 00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,520 even the local newspaper, Who knows where it begins? 876 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,040 Raise your voices, spread the word, let people know what's 877 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,480 going on. Speak to your local football 878 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,760 team, for example, could be a small junior team, it could be a 879 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,720 professional outfit. Speak to them, let them know 880 00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:53,200 what's going on and we will provide them with every help 881 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,520 they need to to make sure that people are aware of what's going 882 00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,480 on. Yeah, I think spreading the word 883 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,320 in exposing what's happening is really powerful, Nadine. 884 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,560 So for example, yesterday one of our colleagues was on their way 885 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:07,960 to Parliament for a meeting and they just happened to be on the 886 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,080 tube at the same time as Jeremy Corbyn and went up and started a 887 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,800 conversation with Jeremy Corbyn about what was happening. 888 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,840 And actually, he said, I've actually, I've heard about this 889 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,240 and was happy you to stand and have his photograph taken 890 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,040 holding up a poster regarding what was happening. 891 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,160 So that's just one of those. How could you have imagined you 892 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,080 were going to be on the tube with Jeremy Corbyn? 893 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,760 You know, so it's it's it's about spreading, exposing, you 894 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,160 know, it's always one of the things one of the questions we 895 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,080 do get, and it's the one that you've just fascinated in is 896 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,680 what can I do to help? You know, people feel so 897 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,640 horrified, they wonder what power they have in this. 898 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,800 What can they do to affect change? 899 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,320 Well, in the words of the Jane Goodall, we can all play our 900 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,160 path. We can all do something that 901 00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,760 might not be the one thing that changes it, but it will build 902 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,080 towards the change. So don't feel powerless. 903 00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,320 Don't feel there's nothing that you can't do. 904 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:09,280 Why should we? Why should we accept the violent 905 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:14,080 action of a small percentage in the world, you know, to have 906 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,480 such a powerful impact on the majority of us, you know, people 907 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:22,600 and animals Now reject it. Don't accept that. 908 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:26,040 Absolutely not. Ask yourself in any situation, 909 00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:29,200 where does my power lie? What can I do? 910 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:30,800 Lasers already talked about some things. 911 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,080 I mean, coming to our account, got a link tree? 912 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,080 We've got all kinds of things in the link tree templates, you 913 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:39,560 know, for letters to send to the Moroccan government, for 914 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:44,480 example, and to and to FIFA. People may listen to this, you 915 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:49,160 might yourself know footballers, talk to them, talk to them. 916 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,360 Can you just start dating a footballer? 917 00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,000 It'd be the Trojan Horse. Nadine if there was ever a 918 00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,360 reason to date a footballer this season. 919 00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:03,080 You have to play your part, play your part. 920 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,320 Yeah, we all do. I was going to say, I remember 921 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,640 right at the very beginning, it was just early, late 20s, 922 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,200 standing on Princess St in Edinburgh and the pouring rain, 923 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,480 handing out leaflets about an issue that was brutal and 924 00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:22,360 handing them out and watching people scrub them up and throw 925 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,720 them in the streets. And I used to follow them and 926 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:26,400 and pick them up, straighten out. 927 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,440 And I always remember this elderly lady who came over who 928 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,240 said, never mind, son, will you ignore loads? 929 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,320 And yes. And that's what you know, these 930 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,840 people who who probably don't think about animals. 931 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,400 They probably also don't think about human beings. 932 00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,200 But there's plenty out there who think of both. 933 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,840 With this campaign, it's children, it's adults being 934 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,000 violently assaulted and it's animals. 935 00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,320 It's a, it's a campaign for everyone. 936 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,840 We come together, we go together and we end it. 937 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,360 And as Debbie says, never give up. 938 00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,320 Never. Yes, never give up. 939 00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,120 Please do go onto the website for IAWPC, go onto the 940 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,320 Instagram. Some things, I have to be 941 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,720 honest, some of the things on your page are very hard to 942 00:55:13,720 --> 00:55:16,480 watch. But wherever possible just share 943 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,640 far and wide because more people know. 944 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:22,240 The more football supporters know, the more compelled they 945 00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:25,560 will be to do something and say not in my name. 946 00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:28,000 But there's a power, Ned, in in bearing witness. 947 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,480 Because when we bear witness, you know, we honour the thing in 948 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,560 itself that's been brutalised, bearing witnesses of power. 949 00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,400 I understand what you're saying, but I think what's important, 950 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,400 the children and the people in Morocco and the animals have no 951 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,480 choice. They have no choice. 952 00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:45,640 They're in it. They're stuck in it right now. 953 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:51,280 So through our bearing witness is a means to help them. 954 00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,280 Bearing witness has a power in itself. 955 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:54,760 We're not just being voyeuristic. 956 00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,000 We're not just, you know, intentionally causing harm or 957 00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:59,960 hurt to ourselves for the sake of it. 958 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,320 Bearing witness has a power. Yes, it does. 959 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:04,960 So go into it knowing what to expect. 960 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,000 It's not going to be easy to see. 961 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:08,800 It's not going to be easy to read about. 962 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,520 So yeah, but it's important and it matters. 963 00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,920 How change comes about Partly through knowing, through seeing. 964 00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:16,960 Ignorance is not a state of bliss. 965 00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,440 It never has been and it never will be. 966 00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:21,320 Ignorance is a state of complicity. 967 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,720 We don't want to be ignorant. We need to be in the world with 968 00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:26,240 our eyes wide open. Yeah, I see what's going 969 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,680 amazing. Well, Debbie, Les, is there 970 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,480 anything else that we missed? Is there anything I didn't ask 971 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,600 about that you feel is important to mention now? 972 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,880 I don't think so. I think this has been a 973 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,560 wonderful podcast. I'm not just saying that, but I 974 00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:41,680 enjoyed. I enjoyed this type of 975 00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,040 discussion. It actually fires me up to do 976 00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:46,800 more, if that is at all possible. 977 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:52,000 It fires me up to do more. And thank you very much on 978 00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,440 behalf of Debbie and I were we're grateful. 979 00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,480 And in the words of the great Maya Angelou, we are more alike 980 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,160 than we are unalike. There you go. 981 00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,760 So I think when we have conversations like this and when 982 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:07,400 people hear it, it's also a validation of that we're not in 983 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,120 the minority. We're not. 984 00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,440 We're in the majority. There are more of us like us. 985 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,040 100%, yeah. People who refuse to cut parts 986 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,200 of themselves off and down. I think, I think this is 987 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,680 becoming really, really clear, especially with this podcast, 988 00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,680 because the more people I speak with, I realise, hey, there's 989 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,320 more like me, you know, we're not just a bunch of sensitive 990 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,800 petals. We feel deeply because it 991 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:34,640 matters those who do not have a voice, so it's important to do 992 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:36,840 something. We can be strong at the broken 993 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,440 places, yes as well. Exactly. 994 00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,600 Well, thank you so much for coming on Debbie. 995 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,200 And there's, if there's anything that you need, if there's 996 00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,000 anything I can do, please count on me. 997 00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:50,000 And yeah, let's, let's take action. 998 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:51,640 Let's do something straight away. 999 00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,160 After finishing this podcast, I urge you to go onto their 1000 00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,640 website and see how you could be useful yourself. 1001 00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,080 Sign the petition. Sign the petition Where is the 1002 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,320 petition on the website. It's on the IOWP spilling tree. 1003 00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,840 We've got something like 76,000 signatures at the moment to sign 1004 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,480 the petition. It's a petition against the 1005 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,840 Moroccan government. It'll be handed over to the 1006 00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,560 government of Morocco. Yeah, people around the world 1007 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,760 have signed it. So the 76,000 all over the world 1008 00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,680 people have signed this. It's set up by our partner Soy 1009 00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:26,880 Dog over in Thailand. Yes, exactly. 1010 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,320 Well, they've they're trap new to release programmes have shown 1011 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,720 incredible impact. And so there's a lot of people 1012 00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,480 who can learn from them. It is possible. 1013 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,000 It just takes a bit longer. But yeah. 1014 00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:40,000 All right. I will let you go. 1015 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:43,200 Debbie Les, thank you so much. I will be forever grateful. 1016 00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,440 Thank you for spreading the message and doing that on my 1017 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,200 podcast. You take care. 1018 00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,760 There's one other thing Nadine. Don't forget to date a 1019 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,640 footballer. I need to find the timeless. 1020 00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,160 I need to find the time. Do it for the dogs, Nadine, do 1021 00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:01,800 it for the dogs. You look for the dog. 1022 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,600 All right, if you're a footballer, I will entertain a 1023 00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:09,240 message in my box maybe, but I am doing it for the dog, so 1024 00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:10,720 there you go. Transparency. 1025 00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:12,920 All right. Yeah, OK. 1026 00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,360 Bye, have a good afternoon. Bye, Bye. 1027 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:16,800 Bye. Bye.