1 00:00:02,280 --> 00:00:04,960 Hello and welcome to Just a Dog podcast. 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,680 I am your host Nadine. Joining me of this week is Rose 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,320 Bow. Rose is a dedicated canine 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,400 behaviourist, counsellor and coach, guided by fear, free 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,480 principles and a deep respect for the emotional lives of dogs 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,680 and their humans. Rose holds a first class Honours 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,320 degree in Biomedical Engineering and is currently completing a 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,880 Master's in Clinical Animal Behaviour at the University of 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,160 with a special interest in chronic pain. 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,840 Her research interests also extend to Afrozoology, focusing 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,720 on how agency, power and identity intersect in dog 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,680 training cultures. She is both an intersectional 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,160 voice and a trusted partner in helping guardians navigate the 14 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:51,680 emotional landscapes of reactivity, trauma and recovery. 15 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,640 On a personal note, I absolutely love this conversation with 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,880 Rose. We pull on a variety of 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,920 different threads, leaning in with Curio curiosity to see 18 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,640 where it leads, and our hope is that it plants a seed for you to 19 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,800 help you consider life with your dog from an ever so slightly 20 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,760 different perspective. It's not about what's right or 21 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,960 wrong, but rather being able to identify some of the cognitive 22 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:18,520 biases that we might hold that are yet to be questioned or 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,360 reflected upon. I really hope that you listen to 24 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,360 all of this episode. I found it wholly fascinating as 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,360 it really tickled parts of my brain that I feel haven't been 26 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,880 tickled in quite some time. I hope that it will do the same 27 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,280 for you. So without further ado, here is 28 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,880 my conversation with Rose Bow. Enjoy. 29 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:41,280 Hi Rose, it's so lovely to see you. 30 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,520 I'm so glad you could join me today all the way from 31 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:44,560 Australia. How are you? 32 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,200 I'm doing on a scale of solid till we could probably closer to 33 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,760 the solid end, but probably like honey, like I can go with the 34 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,400 flow, but I'm quite anchored in this moment. 35 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,560 Held tailed together, that's how. 36 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:58,800 Yeah. I love that. 37 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,200 So Rose, let's start at the very beginning. 38 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,320 I would love to learn more about your journey, how you started 39 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,880 working with dogs and also your personal experience with your 40 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:16,320 first dog, I think called Bruno. Oh, oh, he's, he's so many 41 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,880 things. And this journey has been, it's 42 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,280 been a big journey and I'd say in a relatively short amount of 43 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:24,880 time, which I'm very, I'm very grateful for. 44 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,160 So I guess if I go back to beginning, beginning like as a 45 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,080 kid, I don't know that I was always a dog person, which feels 46 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,720 quite shocking because like I'm so deeply passionate about dogs 47 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,120 and dog people now, but I wasn't always that. 48 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,840 I guess they were kind of around the periphery, like neighbours 49 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,320 had dogs, friends had yacht, had dogs and maybe we'd they'd visit 50 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,840 once or twice. But it was never like a, I guess 51 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,160 I never had like a really deep bond with the dog until maybe 52 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,240 until my first dog, which is later on. 53 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,040 But at the beginning, like as a kid, I'd say I was actually more 54 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:57,840 connected with rabbits and Guinea pigs. 55 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,920 So I wasn't always a dog person. I bonded really with the small 56 00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:05,800 animals. And it was when I got my first 57 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,880 dog, which is like relatively a small time ago, five years ago 58 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,880 that and that was like right before the peak of COVID, like 59 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,480 before everything went like shot in. 60 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,200 Yeah. That, that was like the sort of 61 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,000 catalyst to everything to even just, I guess a lot of a huge 62 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,360 change in how I understand or how I think about dogs and how I 63 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,800 start to question how people have relationships with dogs, 64 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,800 but also a shift in I think my identity and my sense of self 65 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,040 And just, it was a lot of things. 66 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,800 It was a catalyst for this journey of going on to, to look 67 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,360 at and understand dogs and dog people, but also to then 68 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,840 introspect on myself and like my relation with the world. 69 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,840 So it is big, like Bruno was big and for just like five years 70 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,200 ago. And so I guess a quick story or 71 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,680 not the quick, but the the Long story short of Bruno is at the 72 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,160 time I'd convinced my dad that it was a good thing for the 73 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,160 family to have a dog, not knowing nearly enough of like, 74 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,720 you know, what I what I needed to as I go, you know, the first 75 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,160 time really excited. Honestly, child, I still think 76 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,080 of, you know, my brain at that point in thinking about the dog 77 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,280 and what I expected of it as like a like that, like kiddo 78 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,000 Rose. It feels like a very young Rose. 79 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,360 So convinced dad, we actually went on Gumtree, which is like, 80 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,839 you know, we have to, I think the obligatory have to go down 81 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,360 that journey. So we actually went on Gumtree 82 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,360 and then we rocked up to this very dodgy front yard, which and 83 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,040 then and then these three little puppies crawled out and then 84 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,880 there was like a supposed mom dog came out who's actually, I 85 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,120 think in hindsight, quite a friendly dog. 86 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,160 I do think that like thinking about the image of her and her 87 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,240 interactions, I was like, Oh, that's actually quite a lovely 88 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,080 like I don't get to see a lot of dogs and have greetings with a 89 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,120 lot of dogs like that. But you know, who knows if that 90 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,680 was really mom? So we we picked up one of those 91 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,240 three puppies and that that was the start of Bruno. 92 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:57,000 He was a very boisterous kiddo On our very first vet visit is 93 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:02,040 when a big alarm bell, which wasn't as alarming at the time 94 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,240 as it sort of needed to be, but a big alarm bell for Bruno was 95 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,880 he actually had a very they picked up on a very significant 96 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,240 heart Burma for him. So where I guess the normal 97 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,560 heart would sound like love dog, love dog like quite like 98 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,240 rhythmic. His had a kind of whooshing 99 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,680 sound. So it was quite the sound was 100 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:21,840 quite irregular and was not normal. 101 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,280 And then I think in that moment, I didn't know like the 102 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:28,080 repercussions of all of these things in the moment. 103 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,600 It just felt very gut wrenching this like this potential that I 104 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,480 might not be with this dog for a very long time and like 105 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,120 reconciling that with, you know, just how much life I wanted to 106 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,200 have with him. But again, it didn't like hit 107 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:41,560 me. That was just like the 108 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,120 beginning, beginning. And as Bruno was growing up, it 109 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,400 was like as he was growing up, I'd say I mentally was also 110 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,640 still growing up as well. I think I would, I think looking 111 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,960 back on me at that time I did, I did see, I think I was quite 112 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,120 naive, but like still really excited. 113 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,000 So I guess it was like 2 kiddos almost growing up together. 114 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,880 And then like as he was growing up, I was learning the ropes as 115 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,920 we went. And so, you know, like making 116 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,840 mistakes, but also doing some things right, overdoing some 117 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:15,720 things like overly taking him out and exposing him, but also, 118 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,480 you know, not doing certain things like like helping him get 119 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,800 exposed to grooming at home, that kind of thing. 120 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,760 So just a little bit all over the shop, but still trying my 121 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,720 best and trying really hard. And pretty early on, even in 122 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,000 puppy class, we did go to puppy classes. 123 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,800 He was a very, a very big feeling dog very early on, like 124 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,200 all the other puppies were quite if like how I would describe 125 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,240 them knowing what I know now, like they could regulate. 126 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,640 They're like, oh, yeah, I guess I'm here. 127 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,280 There's a that's that one's intensive. 128 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,960 Oh, look at that cookie. Oh, OK, Ami wants me to just sit 129 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:49,800 here. But like, Bruno's like, wait, 130 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:50,280 Eddie dog. Oh, yeah. 131 00:06:50,280 --> 00:06:51,560 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 132 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,520 And then so I literally have like chicken, like little bits 133 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,240 of chicken and cooked chicken cut up. 134 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,040 And I just have to help him do his help, just help station him 135 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,520 on, on a little mat, the whole, the whole, you know, 40 minutes 136 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,640 of class, which is also a very, a very big session for the dog. 137 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,400 But yeah, just very early on, we had this medical issue come up 138 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,840 where like what was saying underlying is his heart. 139 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,400 There were some structural abnormalities with his with his 140 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:20,800 heart. It the heart murmur doesn't 141 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,120 always mean that, but what it grew into was a pretty big 142 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,840 structural abnormality. And at the same time his 143 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,600 behaviour presentations was was very big. 144 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,680 It was quite it was hard for him to take on what I would say a 145 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,720 normal like a average puppy's amount of tolerable stimulation 146 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,600 was. So as he grew up, I'd say the 147 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:45,000 six, the five six month mark was really, really hard was when he 148 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,280 was wanting to do a lot more things. 149 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,720 He'd sort of come out of this early as a puppy, very biddable 150 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,560 puppy. Like even even having big 151 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,560 feelings, it was very, it felt relatively easy to just 152 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,760 communicate with him and ask him to come over and do these 153 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:58,960 things. And as he rolled into 154 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,240 adolescence and gone into adolescent brain of I want to do 155 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,840 these new things and I have no impulse control or no sense of 156 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,440 self preservation. So, and I and I, you know, 157 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,000 probably if we look at his functional group, he was a 158 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,560 German shepherd cattle dog. And I, I would say quite 159 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:17,240 determined, quite determined. And it was like what became or 160 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,160 what, what maybe started out as a like this is a very boisterous 161 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,000 dog. There are some challenges here. 162 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,480 It became a very frustrating experience for me. 163 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:32,600 So I remember like hitting a very hard, like a hard point 164 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,960 where I was feeling that he was really actually difficult to be 165 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,120 with, but not to the point where I want like I felt resigned and 166 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,480 I wanted to throw the tail in, but that I just felt really 167 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,760 helpless in that what I understood at the time was okay, 168 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,280 the dogs that they need to go out for a walk. 169 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,560 And my struggle at the time, like when he was getting into 170 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,760 that 6-7 month mark was he would he would actually be really 171 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,160 upset with having equipment on harness on. 172 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,280 When he'd finally be convinced to have the equipment on getting 173 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,920 in the car, he would actually drool so much to like he would 174 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,880 be like falling down his front feet. 175 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,960 How much drool is actually happening, which is like in 176 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,920 hindsight, Oh, like that. He's very nauseous and very 177 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,000 uncomfortable. I'm very nervous. 178 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,800 But in at that time, my understandings of, you know, 179 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,520 what metric of a happy dog was that he had to be, he had to be 180 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,560 going out and, and having these experiences outside and, and 181 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:31,280 getting to know more of the world. 182 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,240 And so it it got really hard in that equipment, putting on 183 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,880 equipments hard getting him through the car ride, even into 184 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,080 the car was really hard. He's growing quite big at that 185 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,240 point as well. And then the second that he 186 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,520 would see a dog previously, what was I got like just I'm quite, 187 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,040 I'm quite interested. Oh, mommy's got chicken was now 188 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,600 even seeing a dog maybe like 2530 metres away. 189 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,320 He'd actually break into a big green power bark. 190 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,080 It was just, it was very, it was very emotional and it was like 191 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,160 he wasn't emotional and I was, I was very emotional because I 192 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:06,960 didn't at the time, I didn't know how to actually I didn't, I 193 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,080 wasn't as in check with my own emotions as well, let alone to 194 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,640 even fathom his. So then there were a few things 195 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,640 at home where you know, he'd find it quite hard to be alone 196 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,840 at certain times. It was hard to juggle his 197 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,520 schedule, my schedule. I was just finishing uni as 198 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,480 well. And then at that same, at that 199 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,840 7-8 month mark was unfortunately when I discovered balanced 200 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,080 training or the idea of using punishment to quote unquote 201 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,240 correct behaviour. And in that at that point in 202 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,360 time, I think that was compatible to maybe the kind of 203 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,960 like the parenting that I'd grown up with or just the kind 204 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,560 of modelling of authority and child, adult child kind of 205 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:45,360 relationships. I was like, yeah, I guess this 206 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,600 kind of makes sense. And I think a lot of that, like 207 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,520 the language and the way that people talk about that can, can 208 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,600 be like very convincing that this is the right thing to do 209 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,560 and that, you know, you develop these very resilient and robust 210 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:02,920 and I guess dogs who are able to then be afforded more freedom 211 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,720 late later on, you know, So I really bought into that idea of 212 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,160 I guess suppressing. And so he went through desexing, 213 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,080 which was already risky for him given at that point we're doing 214 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,560 echocardiograms every few months and it was coming out. 215 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,000 So his diagnosis was he had harmonic stenosis, so one of his 216 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,880 main heart valves, instead of actually letting blood through 217 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,000 normally, it was actually quite few. 218 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,040 So there's a very little like space for blood to actually go 219 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,320 through. And so even like going under 220 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,280 anaesthesia is quite risky. So we went through desexing. 221 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,880 Cool. And then the before we got to 12 222 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,760 months was when we agreed we do heart surgery for him. 223 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,000 And what was crazy was at the time, I didn't conceptualise 224 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000 that that had anything to do with his behave like his way of 225 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,760 relating to the world. In my head, I was just 226 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,680 completely separate. Like that is that that's just 227 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:54,800 training. And then this is like, you know, 228 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,960 perhaps I don't even know what I would have how I would have 229 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,760 empathised with that. I think in my head I can, I just 230 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,960 imagined that it was like a little bit of an inconvenience 231 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,800 for him when really like his whole heart doesn't work the way 232 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,840 that it should, right. And so 11 months we went like we 233 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,600 go into surgery actually before we, before we even get to the 234 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,000 surgery table, we took, we did a nice thing and like it was a 235 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,520 very nice holiday. We went on a little road trip 236 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,240 with Bruno to a farm stay. And then he was like, like, it 237 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,440 was the first time where like we took off all of those 238 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,520 correctional tools and just didn't think about that. 239 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,760 And then he was like, it was so liberating to just see him be 240 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,280 able to enjoy without me having to do all of this navigating and 241 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,240 without me having to be like this authoritative, like and 242 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,520 controlling, you know, person with him. 243 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,480 I always think about that moment that I had such a sweet, like a 244 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,880 glimpse of what life could be like when we start thinking 245 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,600 about, you know, what kind of environments really help him 246 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,640 thrive without me having to do these things. 247 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,200 We could take him into surgery the next day and then he has a 248 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,400 heart attack on the surgery table and they cannot 249 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:08,120 resuscitate him, which was like, that's that is a grief that I I 250 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,880 would not wish on even like my, you know, worse, worse as 251 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,960 enemies. It was so horrifying just how 252 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,120 sudden like everything was when we just got this. 253 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,080 Like I was just starting to have insight on, hang on. 254 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,720 I took him out to this farm. He's like you say, quite a 255 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,000 lovely dog. Like he, I think that I 256 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,720 understand him a little bit. And then, like, followed with 257 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,240 that, like that sudden loss where I wasn't even able to be 258 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:36,720 with him. I think that was the hardest 259 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,040 thing was I'd sort of just sent him into the room and I was 260 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,480 like, be strong, be resilient. You'll be fine. 261 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:45,200 And then, yeah, thinking about it's been an emotion. 262 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:46,240 I'm so. Sorry. 263 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,520 I'm so sorry for your loss. That's devastating. 264 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,800 Yeah, it's, it was I'm I'm real. I'm most I'm also like certain 265 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,920 it's the it's the time of the month for me. 266 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,560 So I'm like really sitting in the fields today. 267 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:01,560 I think it's. Good, you're in the right place. 268 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,360 And I, I, I, I do like to like tap back into those. 269 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,040 I, I really appreciate this question because sometimes I get 270 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,080 really bogged down on like the work today that I, I forget how 271 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,280 much like, you know, went into The Who we are today. 272 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,880 So, so that was big was I think the three months after I just 273 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,920 like blacked out. I don't know what really, I 274 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,280 don't, I don't know what happened, but the journey from 275 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,520 there, I guess I think that emotional event, it did a lot of 276 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,400 things. It like sent me to like the the 277 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,920 deepest place that I had been, but it was important to be able 278 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,880 to start climbing out of it and seeing new things. 279 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,840 I think I'm like, as painful as it was every time I reflect on 280 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,000 the journey with Bruno, I don't know that I could have been the 281 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,520 person that I needed to be had I not like, had he not, you know, 282 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,560 left the way that he did. And then the second actually, I 283 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,200 guess, I guess that that that's that was the, the biggest thing 284 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,040 is it was so painful, but it also just then opened up space 285 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,920 for me to actually be so incredibly emotional that I 286 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,760 needed to know how to deal with my emotions. 287 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:11,360 And I think that two years after Bruno was a lot of me starting 288 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,720 to realise that I was also a very emotional person. 289 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,680 I just not thought about it. I hadn't become aware of it 290 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,560 until at that point until I was like, like, this is a why do I 291 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,840 get really overwhelmed? And then when I get overwhelmed, 292 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,880 I like cannot breathe. And then and then I'm like on 293 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,000 the floor. You know, at that same point, I 294 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,800 was started like working with dog trainers and just shadowing 295 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,520 different dog trainers. And my understanding of working 296 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,160 with dogs at the time was limited to just like the local 297 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,360 trainers around me. And I just thought that, OK, I 298 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,640 guess working with dogs is just means training them. 299 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,840 And so I was reaching out to different trainers and just 300 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,040 shadowing their classes and just picking up bits here and there 301 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,720 and, and learning how they interacted with people. 302 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,080 And at the same time, I was going through these personal 303 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,840 things like personal relationships, relationships 304 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,000 with my like family. There were so many things 305 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,800 bubbling up that had to that sort of forced me to realise 306 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,440 that I don't know if I know if I quite know what emotions are. 307 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,600 And I think maybe a lot of like Asian immigrant children also 308 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,120 get to this point if they're not kind of shown that from their 309 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:12,840 parents. And I, I think a lot of a lot of 310 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,480 our parents wouldn't have been allowed to feel, you know what I 311 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,240 mean? It's a, there's like so much 312 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,080 suppression that just gets sort of passed down. 313 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,520 So that all surfaced up in a very short amount of time. 314 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,160 And I started going to see a therapy, which is when it like 315 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,360 the parallels of what Bruno would have been going through 316 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,920 would have been emotions like that would have been emotional. 317 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,400 And I guess you don't, you know, you don't punish a kid who's 318 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,800 having a meltdown because that hurt, you know, because the kid 319 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,040 went, I'm hurt. But I don't know how else to 320 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,360 present this other than I need to yell at you because it must 321 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,680 be your fault. You know what I mean? 322 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,120 Like that's. A kid to me. 323 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:50,120 Listen. Yeah. 324 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:51,640 Exactly. Yeah. 325 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,640 And I think it just, it didn't occur to me that I guess like my 326 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,680 own behaviour presentations are similarly comes from a an 327 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,320 emotional place of often it is hurt, but then comes out and 328 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,599 it's like you need to go away or like I'm going away, I'm hiding 329 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:07,920 forever. You constantly, you know what I 330 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,599 mean? And I go, oh, OK, I kind of get 331 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,480 it now. And then I think that's that 332 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:21,319 like that was when the that aha moment happened that OK, it's 333 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:25,040 not it's not actually just about raining, but there's a little 334 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,119 bit more like we're actually emotional creatures, emotional 335 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:29,640 beings. And you know, sometimes we do 336 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,680 need to Co regulate and sometimes we're also 337 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,120 misunderstood. And then after I'd say that two 338 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:40,320 years into grieving Bruno, moving forward, I guess not on, 339 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,640 but moving, you know, forward. Then I, I would call them 340 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,600 creature teachers. Like I would pet sit dogs and 341 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,440 then I would start doing pet sitting while training them. 342 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,080 And at the same time, I would pick up these short courses 343 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,160 from, there's an organisation called the I Double ABC, where 344 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,560 there's, it's just like a big, I guess, educational resource. 345 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,440 And they have a lot of different professionals there who provide 346 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,000 like talks. And that's when I started going 347 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,440 down the road of, OK, we're looking into like, what are some 348 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,360 behavioural issues? What, what are the roots of 349 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:13,320 them? That's more than just, oh, you 350 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,840 know, I've learned that if I bark and I get a treat, 351 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,720 therefore I do it again, like, what is more than that? 352 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,440 Yeah, and then with creature teachers, I think there's 353 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,480 there's so many and they're actually, I've had not just 354 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,640 Bruno like pass away, but I had a very special dog who's 355 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,160 actually, if you've seen on my Instagram, he's a golden 356 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,840 retriever who I've been able to look after since he was a puppy 357 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,360 and who sort of grew with me into the learnings that I have 358 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:41,960 today. His when I say brother, it's the 359 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,800 doggo that his parents previously had is called Gojo 360 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,960 and he was a border collie. He's now like a little elephant 361 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,920 on my arm. He also was a a COVID doggo who 362 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,400 passed away really young from chronic kidney disease. 363 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,480 And he passed early when he was two years old. 364 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,960 But he was the most gentle, like, the most gentle and the 365 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,640 most like, he was so receptive to anything, anything that you, 366 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,960 any inclination, any intention that you might signal, he's 367 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,040 like, where? Where do you want me? 368 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,000 What I can do it? I'll try my best. 369 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,720 And he was just and he, there were things that he struggled 370 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,400 with too. He found strangers quite 371 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,600 complicated and difficult. But just, I think he would have 372 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,360 been a really big push into almost teaching me how to be 373 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:28,320 quite gentle with myself and then gentle with other doggos. 374 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,960 And then very funnily, his brother, his brother being the 375 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:38,320 the doggo that they that they got after Gojo Kare is so many 376 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,680 things. He's so many big feelings in, in 377 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,960 packaged and also a very gentle, yet quite endearing and 378 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,360 demanding way. It's, it's very, it's like he's 379 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,560 a very special dog. And then he's so Gojo had 380 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,880 chronic kidney disease. Kare has bilateral hip dysplasia 381 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,680 and a few things going on for him. 382 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,880 And he is the doggo who I walked with through this, I guess 383 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,160 through the start of the. Chronic pain, like really 384 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,920 understanding that for dogs. And then Curry opened the door 385 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,320 to the last two years of my life of really deep diving like, what 386 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,520 is more, you know, really like what, what, what is like 387 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,520 holistic healthcare actually look like for a dog. 388 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,440 Oh, and when we think about behaviour, of course, I would 389 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,960 find the world really challenging if I had this 390 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,760 physical limit, if I had this Pebble in my shoe or a torn ACL 391 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,720 that I just can't tell you. And I tried to, but you just 392 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,200 understand. You won't listen. 393 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,520 You know what I mean? Yeah. 394 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,200 I could listen to you forever. You're a very good story teller. 395 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,200 Honestly, I just what a tragic story. 396 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:45,720 I think firstly is is your current Y powered by Bruno or? 397 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,560 It's still powered by Bruno. It's still power. 398 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,720 And it's almost like the meaning of his passing and the meaning 399 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,400 of what we had just keeps evolving and getting deeper the 400 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,960 more that I know because it just feels, I guess I just feel more 401 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,480 and more grateful every year that I just get to learn more 402 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,920 because I have the capacity to. Because I wouldn't have if he 403 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,720 was still with me. You know what I mean? 404 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,960 Oh, yeah. Yeah. 405 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,600 Do. You know, I'm wondering whether 406 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,080 you at any point between then and now made the connection 407 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:20,400 between how it wasn't like his illness and then Gojo and 408 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,520 Corey's illnesses or physical ailments. 409 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,360 And. There's a connection between 410 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,200 them and the way that they were bred, rather than luck of the 411 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,840 draw. I think definitely, I think and 412 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,560 probably in like in hindsight, maybe a year ago in reflecting 413 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,480 on this covert boom of puppies even, I think it was most 414 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,280 apparent when I started running puppy classes myself. 415 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,000 So last year I hosted a few puppy classes at Peto and when I 416 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,680 was seeing the doggos and when I had been taught to start looking 417 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,040 at how, how does a dog move and how do they not move? 418 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,440 And therefore what does that say about what they can and cannot 419 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,320 do. And you know, in very subtle 420 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,640 ways, I think it became very apparent, like looking at these 421 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,280 new puppies coming out that I think it reflected a big issue 422 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,160 in Australia that our because we're an island, our gene pool 423 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,960 is very small. And so there's a high, I guess 424 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,000 percentage of inbredness that comes with a lot of breeds. 425 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,320 And what that can look like is these confirmations that are not 426 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,640 quite efficient for the body or efficient for what behaviorally 427 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:27,360 we sort of work them into doing. I guess an example could be that 428 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,440 if we think about, say, German shepherds, I think we have a lot 429 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,440 of German shepherds in Australia and we see them in all these 430 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,200 different shapes and sizes and with all sorts of slopes and 431 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,840 backs of backs. And I guess what they were 432 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,360 created to do is to be working with a human, especially 433 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,920 livestock. And then we've also sort of 434 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,600 evolved them to work as, you know, guardians of the 435 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,400 households, guardians of the farm. 436 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,520 And I, I think what I understand of where German Shepherd lines 437 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,520 started is they're actually quite small. 438 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,400 They're supposed to be quite small to be functionally or to 439 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,880 align with what they were created for. 440 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,360 And so now we're seeing all of these different mixes. 441 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:10,040 And like when we, when we cross, when we, when we bring 2, two 442 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,600 different breeds together, we just, it does become I guess in 443 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,480 a way it is a little bit of a, what do we call it? 444 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,400 A luck, a draw? What did you call it? 445 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,080 A luck of the draw. Yeah, of actually how sound this 446 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,360 dog owes confirmation is going to be and that how sound this 447 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:30,880 dogs health is going to be just because of how we are creating 448 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,040 them. Does that make sense? 449 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:37,200 So I guess genetics is such a big influence in the physical 450 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,400 health and then subsequently behavioural health, but also 451 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,200 like stand alone, like, you know, their personality and 452 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,480 then, you know, predisposition to feeling quite pessimistically 453 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,920 about the world. It has a super big influence on 454 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:50,800 that. And I think, yeah, I guess that 455 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,360 becomes more and more apparent each year and probably last year 456 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:59,840 seeing in my own puppy cohorts just how drastic some of the, 457 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,480 like the puppies could be in what I would expect of a like 458 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,120 how much is tolerable for an average puppy. 459 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,240 Yeah. And in those puppy classes we 460 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,760 did, we, I would say quite not game changing, but not 461 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,120 conventional things where we're not teaching sits and stays, 462 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:19,160 we're actually just teaching. Can they explore their own 463 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,560 little space that's quite far from each other when they've 464 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,680 got, you know, little snuffles and leaky mats set up? 465 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,240 And we're getting them introduced to these tools that 466 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,720 will help them regulate. And you'll see such a big 467 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,000 spectrum of puppies. Like some puppies are like, 468 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,120 yeah, cool. Actually, very few, very few 469 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,200 puppies are like, cool, I can, I have a sniff over here. 470 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,840 And a lot of puppies are like, oh, my God, there's all sorts 471 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,280 going on. This is very overwhelming. 472 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,760 Yeah. Is that socialisation? 473 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,320 Is that connected to socialisation or being taken 474 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,640 away from the mummy and litter too soon? 475 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,960 Or is that genetics? It could be all three. 476 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,320 So we have studies now suggesting that the epigenetics, 477 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,840 so how stressed mum was as mum or what the experience of the 478 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,880 puppies were like in the womb and in those first two weeks of 479 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,720 early rearing, how much kind of neurological stimulation, too 480 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,920 much, too little can impact their later life resilience. 481 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,160 There's a lot of factors that I guess when I meet parents would 482 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,440 have been out of their control that would have shaped a lot of 483 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,040 the foundations of the doggo that they have. 484 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,080 And then we kind of have to, I guess, come into an acceptance 485 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,760 that that is now a part of it and it's what we're working 486 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,680 with. But it doesn't define doggo. 487 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,480 But it is undeniably a big part. It is undeniably a big part of, 488 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,960 I guess what doggo can, might not or can do, Might not be able 489 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,280 to do, might not want to do. Yeah, 100%. 490 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,400 Knowing what you know now because you've been down so many 491 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,360 rabbit holes, if you could go back in time, what would you do 492 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:57,920 differently with regards to how you found and selected Bruno all 493 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,360 the way through to like how you managed his big feelings, I 494 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:03,240 guess. It's a very good question. 495 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,560 It's a very big question because I feel like a gut part of me 496 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:12,400 would have answered. I don't know that I would have 497 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,680 gotten a doggo at the time. I don't know that I should have 498 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,120 gotten a doggo at the time. Because I guess the risk of how 499 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,400 you know of these kinds of physical elements on our doggos, 500 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,920 physical limitations because of how we are creating them, 501 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:32,000 because of like the poor oversight on how we are creating 502 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,760 and producing these litters and who is doing that. 503 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,480 I think it is a very common, it is very common for dogos to 504 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,000 experience or to have like higher needs than what we would 505 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,360 expect maybe 10 years ago when like much lower number of dogs. 506 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,480 And I, I hate to like, think about it in terms of like mass 507 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,240 production, but it's a little bit like that where we go into 508 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,880 mass production. You can't control the quality. 509 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,240 And I, I hate, like, I hate thinking about it like that. 510 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,120 But I feel like when we think of it, we think of the system that 511 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:05,680 we're in, and I think that's a lot of what we're battling is 512 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,680 one of the root causes is we're really having to think about the 513 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,280 ethics of producing the dogs and I guess the ethics of the legal 514 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,680 environment that we're putting or maybe not putting enough on 515 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,720 that process. Which, yeah, which would make me 516 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,360 go, I don't know at the time, given my maturity and my 517 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:27,560 resources financially as well as emotionally, that I would have 518 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:34,840 been ready to take on a doggo and to have good mental health 519 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,840 in that initial, in that initial kind of learning process, if 520 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,120 that makes sense. That's what my gut would say. 521 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,200 I also have this debacle in my head of when I talk about like 522 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,480 the production or the creating of the dogos, I also then have 523 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,760 this debacle of, well, who gets to say whose life is more 524 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,960 worthy? And then I go, you know, I also 525 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,720 think about, you know, would I have gotten a rescue dog and 526 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,200 what are the things that I would need to think about Then? 527 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,480 I just overall, I, I guess I don't know how to answer that 528 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,280 question yet, but I probably would have been in the boat of 529 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,160 at least where I am right now. Knowing what I know. 530 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:18,120 I know that I am not ready for a doggo, but I'm also aware of how 531 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:23,000 wonderful and how wonderfully insightful a life with them to 532 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,440 such closeness would be. I think I get to enjoy that as 533 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,560 someone who gets to be that, who gets to be involved in the 534 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,800 doses. I think of myself as like an 535 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,280 auntie where I'm supposed to be a little bit animal 536 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,240 behaviourist. I'm Slash the future role of 537 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,440 clinical animal behaviourist is supposed to be more like 538 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,080 psychologist. But I feel like with with the 539 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:46,040 doggo industry, we do get to be a little bit closer with the dog 540 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,400 and we do get to, I guess, enjoy the personal, the personal 541 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:51,760 experience with them a little bit. 542 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,560 You know what I mean? So yes, I, I enjoy this Auntie 543 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,840 Hood for, for a lot of dog goes and to be able to walk with 544 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,840 people on their journeys, but I don't know that I'd be ready to 545 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,280 go on one yet. But the cat, we do have a cat. 546 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,920 Also, it's good perspective to have because when we think about 547 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,480 cats, the process of domestication did not, we did 548 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,720 not go as far with them as we did with the dog. 549 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,800 For the dogs we went, we need them to be completely to an 550 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,520 extent. And you know, the certain, 551 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,960 certain groups of doggos that we've made, we need them to be 552 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,000 completely dependent on us. And so you do have these dogs. 553 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,520 They're like, hey, I do need your help. 554 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,240 And then at the same time, I feel like as a society, what 555 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,600 we've been told to do is they shouldn't be that needy. 556 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,160 They attach too much attention that you're asking for. 557 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,960 That's I think that's the interesting pathway that the 558 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,880 doggos have gone down with cats. They haven't gone that far into 559 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,760 domestication for them a little, a little bit, but not to the 560 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,200 extent where they're like, they're actually dependent on 561 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,080 us. They're so socially obligate on 562 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,480 us for survival. And for them, they're kind of 563 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,080 like, oh, you're nice to have. And you know what? 564 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,760 I'm resourceful. So yeah, you're helpful to me in 565 00:29:58,760 --> 00:29:59,960 this moment. I have this need. 566 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:01,840 Help me fulfil it. I said help me to fulfil it. 567 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,680 You know what, don't worry, you are too slow for me. 568 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,080 I'll do it myself. And it's, I do think sometimes 569 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,520 that my cat speaks to me and that's why in that way, which I 570 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,080 think is wonderful. Like, how much agency does she 571 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,680 have? It's really, it's quite nice, 572 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,320 you know, And then it makes me think about do wish that doggos 573 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,080 also had inherently. Do you know what I mean? 574 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,880 Like could could we take all of that more like negotiation and 575 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,280 self? I don't know if self 576 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,280 determination is the right word, but just that capability. 577 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,720 And I don't know if that's the right word too, if that's like, 578 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,440 politically correct, maybe just. Yeah, I do wish that doggos were 579 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,800 able to be a little less dependent on the humans because 580 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,520 our expectations seem to align in that way where we want to 581 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,640 live life as a human and to be happy. 582 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:51,800 Yeah. At the same time, we want this 583 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,360 closeness with with the animal, you know what I mean? 584 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,760 And that for. Yeah, I do wish that for the 585 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,040 dog, so that they could have a nice life being close with us 586 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,640 and also not needing us that much. 587 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:03,680 Yeah, there's. So, I mean, there's so many 588 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,880 layers to that, isn't it? Yeah, recently I heard from 589 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,520 someone that animal centred care is quite an extreme view and 590 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,800 that immediately made me feel like, wow, it shouldn't be like 591 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,600 it really just it's so it's so basic and so being controlling 592 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,640 when it comes to dogs boundaries, boundaries. 593 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,560 It is kind of perceived that that is just part and parcel of 594 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,360 being a dog parent, you know, they need to fit in with our 595 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,320 lives. I would like to understand from 596 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,840 your experience, how did we go from the more dominance based 597 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,440 model and transition to where we are now, well some of us to 598 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,440 being more animal centred? What do you think brought on 599 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:45,920 that? Is it social media? 600 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,680 Is it maybe gentle parenting? I think it's a very good 601 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,960 question. It's a very big question to 602 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,320 think about how like these shifts started to happen. 603 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,560 I think it would be quite personal to each person and 604 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,840 their context and their experience experiences as well. 605 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,320 Maybe as an example, I might talk about what my kind of 606 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,160 transition into this way of thinking look like. 607 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,120 And I think this, this is maybe how a lot of people might also 608 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,680 experience this, I guess this, this way of thinking, But, but 609 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,920 also I want to acknowledge that it's a little bit all of the 610 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,760 above as well. Thinking about like gentle 611 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,400 parenting, the movements when we think about children and like 612 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,680 starting to have a very work generation who know the language 613 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,160 of therapy, who have, you know, been seeking that kind of mental 614 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,840 health support. A lot of factors are pushing 615 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,520 that in the land of parenting, which is then sort of 616 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,000 transferring over to doggos, the way that we see our 617 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,520 relationships with them. I think on a deeper layer one 618 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,520 for my journey, I'm going to go back to Creature teacher Kare. 619 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,000 So Creature Kare is a teacher for me, but so is his mom and 620 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,760 his mom is a post colonial biblical scholar. 621 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,840 It does a lot to even unpack in one title. 622 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,040 It's incredible actually. I don't know that I'm going to 623 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,520 do her work justice explaining that, but I think she was one of 624 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,000 the first moments, like the first seed planters into 625 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,480 thinking about the systems that we grow up in that shape our 626 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,000 perception of the world. And actually then starting to 627 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,800 look at, you know, when I look out to the world, what glasses 628 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,080 am I wearing shaped by these systems And seeing my perception 629 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,400 is not adjective truth, but a pair of glasses informed by me 630 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,560 and then how I've experienced the world around me. 631 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,720 One of those layers was post coloniality. 632 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,280 It was that moment where it was coming into this awareness that 633 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,760 we live in this world where we have very violent histories that 634 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,960 still impact our lives today. And the violence, you know, 635 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,320 today is like similar to early history, but like in different 636 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,120 fonts. For me, it's a lot of like these 637 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,800 concepts and these systems that started actually challenging a 638 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,200 lot of how I was questioned, like how I was even like seeing 639 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,120 relationships with the people and like and animals. 640 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,560 So in Australia, we were colonised by the British in the 641 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,280 seventeen 1800s, settlers arrived and termed Australia 642 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,480 like nobody's land. When in actuality, we had 643 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,800 Aboriginal people, indigenous people who've been living on 644 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,360 this country for like such a long time. 645 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:20,760 And then what followed again, like continues to today by in 646 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,440 like different fonts. The still quite harrowing was, 647 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,639 was genocide and then removal of indigenous people from their 648 00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:30,320 land, from each other and from their knowledge, and then taking 649 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,239 their land and then taking their knowledge without 650 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,960 acknowledgement of its traditional ownership. 651 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,400 And then today, I think there's a lot of things, there's a lot 652 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,400 of like ramifications from that. And there's important, I guess 653 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,560 when we think about our, our setup today, it is still the 654 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,840 same setup as what the settlers came and set up when, when they 655 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,520 removed Aboriginal people, Aboriginal land. 656 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,440 Even the idea of what Sarah and I were talking about Cara's mom, 657 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,560 which was my first crap. That's that's a lot to process. 658 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,680 So you're saying how if you think about the schooling 659 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,320 system, right, the the biggest things, like the biggest, 660 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,200 biggest point was like what we're learning in school is this 661 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,480 almost like a doctrine, Like we are taught to think in one way, 662 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:11,960 but whose perspective are we taught? 663 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,200 It's this perspective of, you know, the victors of history and 664 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,160 you know what we learn, We learn say like science, English, maths 665 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:22,680 from one from this like Western perspective. 666 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,960 Like I've been aware of that as a child. 667 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,320 Like we get taught multiculturalism at school. 668 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,040 But then I think it really hit me then that our institutions 669 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,400 like schools and what we're taught at schools is like it's, 670 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,560 it's, it comes from such an old institution. 671 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,400 And even like, even the idea of schools was to make sure 672 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,120 actually, like, kids started learning discipline and 673 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,040 obedience to them, be able to be really good workers. 674 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,600 And then I was like, oh, yeah, that's too much to think about. 675 00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:52,240 But then it did. It planted a very important 676 00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:55,880 seed, which is the like where we're at and how we think and 677 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,360 how we exist right now was not from this blank slate neutral 678 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,480 place, but like there's a lot of heaviness there that then shape 679 00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:08,600 the systems around us, then shape how we grow up and what we 680 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,160 learn. And it also shapes the language 681 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,760 around us. Like language isn't neutral, 682 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,920 right? But like science, science isn't 683 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,720 neutral. Like I have another thing that 684 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:22,840 I'm sitting with is I'm trained as an engineer or I did my 685 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,480 schooling in biomedical engineering, which is different 686 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,200 to what I like what I'm doing the masters in right now, which 687 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,440 is behavioural science, clinical animal behaviour. 688 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,040 When I think about engineering, we're taught to look at when, 689 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,320 when presented a problem, we're taught to look at the problem in 690 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,840 context to all of its stakeholders, all of the people 691 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,520 and the patterns within all of their individual needs. 692 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,480 So then come to or start thinking about how do we create 693 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,200 a pathway of the lease trade off doesn't have to be the most 694 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,120 perfect, but just the least trade off. 695 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,120 So that and as many needs met as possible. 696 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,600 What would that look like? And in in science, what I found 697 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,560 was really interesting was there seems to be this like the 698 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,520 scientific method seems to be this pursuit of objective truth, 699 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:07,840 but like. What? 700 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,320 Yeah, it's a temporary truth. It's a temporary, but then it 701 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,400 gets, you know, and I find it so interesting. 702 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,400 Science is really, when we're taught in school, it's feels 703 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,920 very what we think of its associations to innovation. 704 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,680 And it's it's, you know, transformative and it's so 705 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,760 important, but also it came from a lot of violence. 706 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,040 Violence is in we, you know, we enacted a lot of things on 707 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,840 people of, on black people, on Black folk, on animals to be 708 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,360 able to benefit us today. And so, like science is in 709 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,400 neutral, you know what I mean? And a huge thank you to Sarah. 710 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,320 But also now it's a big, heavy thing to sort of sit with, but 711 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,440 we're very, very fortunate to sit with it to be able to think 712 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,600 about, you know, where to with this information and where to 713 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,760 with this awareness. And then when we think about 714 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,520 scientists in neutral, the idea of animal, the word animal is 715 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,600 also not neutral. I think, I think you know, how 716 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,680 many times have you have you heard someone get called you 717 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:08,680 dirty pig or you know, the, the B word is what we call a female 718 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,880 duck. And it's so, so many, so many 719 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,440 layers. But when we compare that to say 720 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,120 animal symbols in indigenous culture and not speaking for I 721 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,880 guess all indigenous cultures. I'm reading this book called 722 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:24,560 Santok and it is an Aboriginal man travelling and collecting 723 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,680 traditional knowledge from knowledge keepers. 724 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,320 And what I hear him talk about is animal symbols in some 725 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,200 indigenous cultures is very different. 726 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,640 It's not relative, it's not a relative point to human, but 727 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,720 it's like an active source within like a living, breathing 728 00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:43,440 full ecosystem. So like our the word animal in 729 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,800 our kind of context is very different to say animal and say 730 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,840 how even like how a native person in a certain part of 731 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,960 China would like that the word, the equivalent word or say 732 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,080 animal and indigenous in an indigenous culture. 733 00:38:56,240 --> 00:39:00,960 So so yes, I think there are then these systems, these old 734 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,120 systems that have sort of paved this traditional way of being in 735 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,320 relation with another being. It could be like towards another 736 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,600 woman, towards a child. And I think as we're coming into 737 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:17,520 awareness of these systems, there is then this idea of how 738 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,000 do we, like, liberate ourselves from that? 739 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,320 How do we live authentically? In my head at least, that's kind 740 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,920 of like what my journey is being like is as we're coming into 741 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,240 awareness of these things, what does it mean to live, to live 742 00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:33,200 differently with an animal? Like, to actually see them 743 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,680 differently than what we've been taught to? 744 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,080 Is that you know what I mean? Yeah. 745 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,880 I think the challenge, yeah, it is I recently wrote an abstract 746 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,880 with an incredible human. She's called Valley and she did 747 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,320 her pH. She did very, very cool person. 748 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,320 She did a PhD, especially looking at animal agency and 749 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,920 looking at indigenous populations where she was. 750 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,520 Yeah. Recently we wrote an abstract 751 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,400 together on animal agency. What that looks like for a? 752 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,400 Dog training, I think it's a dog training journal for like 753 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,480 questioning what does utopia look like between the human and 754 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,280 dog? And like, that's, that's where 755 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,080 my brain is, that's where we're sitting. 756 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:12,760 That's the things that we're sitting with now. 757 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,520 So I think on a, on a deeper layer, I think awareness of some 758 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,880 of these old systems helps us start thinking about how do we 759 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,120 act differently? How do we perceive differently 760 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,280 those around us? How do we have these new 761 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,280 relationships? And then on a maybe more social 762 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,560 cultural level, I think that we have this generation, I think 763 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,840 it's like the millennials and maybe like a little bit younger 764 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,600 than millennials is a group where we're coming into also 765 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:46,640 awareness of our own mental health of emotions of more like 766 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,760 healthy attachment styles. And there's, I feel like this is 767 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,840 a trend that there is an intention to try and do better 768 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,720 in understanding what we do for the next generation. 769 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,840 I think that that has been a big driver of that gentle parenting 770 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,000 movement, which then when we think about how we have 771 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,760 relationships with our with, with our pets is very much alike 772 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,080 that of a parent and child. And that's, I think quite 773 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,600 naturally the concept sort of they, they really do, they 774 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,240 really float. I think it's, it's a really cool 775 00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:20,240 way of looking at and teaching people about how to be with dog. 776 00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:23,880 It's is to be quite inspired by gentle parenting, which is 777 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,400 different to permissive parenting. 778 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,120 I think a lot of people, I think it gets that bad rack where it's 779 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,440 like, Oh well, we just you just giving everything to the kid and 780 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,240 I go, no, no, it doesn't work like that. 781 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,440 And very big part of it is starting to understand the 782 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,560 underlying emotions and OK, the emotion, let's talk about the 783 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:42,920 behaviour. You know what I mean? 784 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,360 I think that also plays a big role into how we are thinking 785 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,160 about at least how this like upcoming group of, you know, 786 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,280 people with their doggos are starting to respond to their 787 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,160 dogs. Yeah, I think like, language has 788 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,680 a lot to do with it as well. Like we, we are human beings. 789 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,200 We have a lot of feelings. Some of us are better than 790 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,240 others at wearing or not wearing our feelings. 791 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:10,240 You know, like suppressing it or finding healthy channels or self 792 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:11,840 soothing or whatever it might be. 793 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,160 But at the core of it, it's being able to name it, to 794 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,360 identify it. And a lot of us didn't grow up 795 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,440 with that language. And so we don't have the 796 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,480 language and we can't identify. How on earth are we going to 797 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,840 identify and find the language for animals, right? 798 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,160 So I think we've got more vocabulary now perhaps than 799 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,200 what? Or we're exposed to more 800 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,520 vocabulary, especially psychological vocabulary that 801 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,000 helps us, I guess, explain what we're observing, but also our 802 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,960 response to those observations. Yes, 100%. 803 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:45,280 Well, Brené Brown. Brené Brown has this wheel of 804 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,520 emotions. I love it so much. 805 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,720 I think she's a very inspirational person. 806 00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:52,640 But yeah, she has like that wheel of emotions was so helpful 807 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,800 for me. And sometimes I still struggle 808 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,600 with figuring out what is this sensation in my body like, which 809 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,920 emotion is it? I still struggle with that. 810 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,480 And sometimes I wonder if it's a bigger struggle than the 811 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,600 average, the average person. Like sometimes I have a really 812 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,920 hard time working out what is going on for me. 813 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,920 I know I think, like anger and frustration, and then I also 814 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,840 know what hurt feels like. And I know anxiety in like how 815 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,360 I'm starting to behave and the things that I check in on later. 816 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,720 But there's like other things like embarrassment. 817 00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:25,200 And then there's all these other little emotions that I'm like, I 818 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,320 know when when I read a book how that might feel, but I don't 819 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,440 know that I know what it feels like in my body. 820 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,600 So even that I think is an ongoing journey of like trying 821 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,120 to work out, like check in and know how to respond to and 822 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,920 listen to our body. Yeah. 823 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,640 But but yes, 100% I think that that makes for a generation who 824 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,640 has the capacity to see that in another being, whether it's a 825 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,600 kiddo or even like each other, right. 826 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,480 Like we start to go, we are able to actually give out each other 827 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,600 space to be emotional folks. Like in the beginning how you 828 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,720 said when you first got Bruno, you know you had big feelings 829 00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:01,160 and then you realise actually I also have big feelings. 830 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,320 And then being confronted with that. 831 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,880 I think dogs, if we care enough to learn and listen and observe, 832 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,960 help us become better humans. They. 833 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,360 Do and it can be very confronting. 834 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,160 I think that's not having a kiddo, but seeing my brother 835 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,120 with his kiddo as I can see that it's really confronting for him. 836 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:21,880 And I can see it because I'm like, I think that I'm aware of 837 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,520 this, that you're not aware of Sam. 838 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,360 And I'm like, I think that this is reflecting something that he 839 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,400 finds quite hard in himself, like a hurt that then might then 840 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,760 behaviorally look like stubbornness that he finds quite 841 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,080 hard to sit within himself. I think when that gets reflected 842 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,040 from his kiddo, I can see him get really overwhelmed. 843 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,520 And I think that our dogs can do the same thing for us, which is 844 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,680 why it's such an interesting thing like to study what really 845 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,960 is this, like what is the human animal bond? 846 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,840 It's so many things like we can and read so much for them. 847 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,880 Should we like when we do have the capacity to know what, you 848 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,520 know, potentially they're telling us. 849 00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:58,720 And then at the same time, it can be confronting to 850 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,920 experience, to be like shown to be reflected these things that 851 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,680 we didn't know that we get quite worried about in ourselves. 852 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,880 And then at the same time, it can be so like fulfilling to 853 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,280 like heal that and then doing in the doing that healing, you go, 854 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,520 oh, like, oh, that's kind of repaired my own little inner 855 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,240 child a little bit. So it's it is very fascinating. 856 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:23,000 It can be such a big experience to be in relationship with the 857 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,320 doggo, isn't it? It's, it's so, it's so many 858 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,240 things and it just keeps on. The more that you know you, the 859 00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:31,560 deeper that you can go. That's so true. 860 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,280 Actually. There's a question around that. 861 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,440 The more that you know, the more you see that maybe the majority 862 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,760 of the general public don't get to see, yeah, potentially will 863 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,080 never get to see. How do you deal with those 864 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,240 feelings in terms of based on your own experiences of what 865 00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:52,120 you've, you know, learned through Bruno and the other dogs 866 00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,240 in your care, but also your education? 867 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,560 I bet you see a lot of things that others don't. 868 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,680 And so how do you process that? Do you address it with people in 869 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,360 a kind way, like what comes up for you in those moments? 870 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:06,840 I. Think about the two contexts 871 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,000 that I where that can happen. So it's either like in 872 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,680 behavioural consultation where we're having a conversation 873 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,560 about the dog and I'm hearing like, I'm going, OK, I'm 874 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,600 starting to paint this picture of a dog or who might be finding 875 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,880 things quite hard that I don't know that I'm like hoping is 876 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,480 ready to listen to. There's one context and then 877 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,640 second context is just walking down the street and then just 878 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,280 existing with other people existing with their dogs. 879 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,880 I'll add to the behavioural consultation one first. 880 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,600 What's been quite interesting and kind of what we talked about 881 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,400 beginning of the call, whether or not it was recorded, was how 882 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,040 I've kind of created a niche for myself. 883 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,960 The algorithm has created a niche for me probably because of 884 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,000 the language that I use and the kind of things that I educate on 885 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,200 and the style of like the talking. 886 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:57,600 It's created a really wonderful community of at its core, like 887 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:02,480 people who really want to do the best by their dog with whatever 888 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,320 like means they have available too. 889 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,000 And I think that driver is already so much to work with 890 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,760 because then should I see this picture of the doggo? 891 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,840 I know that there is a person there who really wants to be 892 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,080 this best person or give this dog the next best step. 893 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,160 I do think that most people like we're not even within this 894 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,840 niche, but I think that most people when they do go to seek 895 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,040 support and help, there is that like that is the underlying 896 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,120 driver is I still I want to be the best. 897 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,120 I want to do a good thing for for my doggo, right? 898 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,160 And I've tried to find that in the human in how they're 899 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,280 talking. And I try to understand their 900 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,720 needs and where the doggo has impings on their needs to be 901 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:44,200 able to empathise with just why it's just so frustrating for 902 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,880 them or why it's been so hurtful for them or shaming for them. 903 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,000 And then being able to empathise with that. 904 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,000 I go, I think, yeah, understandable. 905 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,880 Like then it's like a negotiation, right? 906 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,040 This one has a need, but this also has a need. 907 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,720 And like what is within reasonable. 908 00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,440 I understand attention. It is really hard to sit with. 909 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,880 And then I think once human feels heard and once I 910 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,440 understand what, what the human is struggling with, then it's, 911 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,800 it's easy to talk about what's happening for the doggo and what 912 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,440 the different options could be, what the different, like next 913 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,520 steps could be, what works within, like, you know, what is 914 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,280 reasonable for the human. I think that's, that's for that 915 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,400 picture. I just try, I try to remember 916 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,640 the human on the side of the leash who really wants to do the 917 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,000 best for the dog. And the people that I see now 918 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,480 that again, the algorithm has like funnelled people, a 919 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,640 specific people on specific journeys for their dogs in 920 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,760 that's, that's like, that's what helps me at that. 921 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,400 Like, at that point on the point of like when I go out for a walk 922 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,160 on the, it's actually quite hard. 923 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,800 Like my the friends who who know that I, I get quite overwhelmed 924 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,800 or overstimulated when I do you see a dogger who's finding 925 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,160 something quite hard. If they tell me to just just 926 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,320 turn away, just you hear nothing, Rose and I know you're 927 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,320 just so right. I hear nothing. 928 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,800 We just keep walking and then we just make some distance and move 929 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,640 on. Not every moment is an educating 930 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,160 moment. I would love to go up to someone 931 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,680 and just be like, hey, look, I know you're wanting to do the 932 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,800 best for you to go. Would you like to have a chat 933 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,880 about what that might look like? Because I can see he's having a 934 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,720 hard time and I can see it's really hard for you. 935 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,120 I would love to say that to people, but how many people are 936 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,080 wanting that on like a coffee run? 937 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:18,800 You know what I mean? I. 938 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,960 Think if you approached it this way, loads, maybe potentially. 939 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,680 Yeah, I would if I was them. I'd really welcome that approach 940 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,840 that you've just shared with me. That's lovely. 941 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,000 Well, that's given me some bravery. 942 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,520 I feel like having been on social media for this long and 943 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,520 it's been a while, I think I've been doing, I've been posting on 944 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,000 Instagram for, OK, when I say a while four years and there's 945 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,600 like all of them are archived to like, what is the most recent 946 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,800 and reflective of Rose at this current point in time kind of 947 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,080 posts. But yeah, I think that's also 948 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,560 made me a little bit more wary of the kinds of opinions that 949 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,360 people can have in a way, even though I I would expect maybe to 950 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,760 be a bit more desensitised to, you know, the various comments 951 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,040 that people might have. It's still quite hard to hear. 952 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,880 Like it's still quite hard to be misunderstood. 953 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,280 I think is what it is, is you're not afforded time to give your 954 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,600 context for people to know where some advice might come from. 955 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,680 And so, yeah, I think I'm that's what I might be worried about 956 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,960 when I I would love to be just someone to go. 957 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,240 Hey, like, I notice you're having a really hard time. 958 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,760 I've been quite scared to, but maybe I think I think we should 959 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,880 try. I haven't in a very long time. 960 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:31,360 Yeah. But I think we should. 961 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:36,120 Yeah, we should be to have those or even just to ask the question 962 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:37,760 of. Exactly what's the worst that 963 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,640 can happen? You know that like those people 964 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,440 feel a bit more guided, a bit more aligned, a bit more seen, a 965 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,640 bit more herd, and the dog benefits from that. 966 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,600 It's interesting though, because once you see, you can't Unsee. 967 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,880 And so that is a blessing and a curse in many ways, isn't it? 968 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,000 So going back to your social media, which is how I found you, 969 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,600 how I discovered you, maybe I fell into your algorithm or you 970 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,480 fell into mine makes. Sense Science. 971 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,640 Nadine, if you yeah, that we meet each other, I go. 972 00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:07,360 It makes sense. You do these things called think 973 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,800 pieces. The ones that stand out to me is 974 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,080 the one that you wrote about the media and how that influences 975 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,080 our perception of dogs over time. 976 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,560 How, you know, extreme confirmation in dogs have 977 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,200 affected and impacted on their ability to communicate with 978 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,560 their own species. You know, dogs with folds not 979 00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,000 being able to express in their faces they should or 980 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,920 communicate. And then what was the other one? 981 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,280 I really enjoyed what it means to be an animal or like control 982 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:38,640 over time. So fascinating. 983 00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:41,880 Before we go into a bit more detail with those, can you tell 984 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,720 me what the motivation behind these thing pieces were? 985 00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:47,040 Very good question. It's very good that you sort of 986 00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,280 picked up like that. It's pretty recent that I 987 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,320 started dropping think pieces. So I'm second year now into my 988 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,640 masters of clinical animal behaviour and there was one 989 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:02,520 course that was very eye opening that forced me to spend the time 990 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,080 to answer some of those questions that we talked about 991 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,760 earlier or some of those to really go into the spirals that 992 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,960 we talked about earlier. And that was the course on 993 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,360 anthozeoology. I'd always, I'd always had these 994 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,600 thoughts that there are, I think there are things that are deeper 995 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,280 than just, you know, the training things that we talk 996 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,800 about or the behaviours that we talk about that are also part of 997 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,960 this picture of how a human and dog feeling better about each 998 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,280 other. There are these systems that we 999 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,680 need to address that I think once we sort of come into an 1000 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,160 awareness of, we can liberate ourselves from. 1001 00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,480 And so there's always been that motivation there. 1002 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,480 Just didn't know what the delivery would look like. 1003 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,360 And in my head, I was like, do we make it YouTube video to 1004 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,040 explore this? And then anthrozoology was like 1005 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,440 a very good pushing point. All right, we have these 1006 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,040 assignments that we have to do, which is a good thing. 1007 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,400 Like they're very good questions that they're asking us. 1008 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,840 And it forces me to do the research and to critically 1009 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,480 think. And so that first think piece 1010 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,960 was like like formalised because we had an assignment that was on 1011 00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,160 the assignment question felt simple in that it was asking why 1012 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,920 do people bark at their dogs? It's looking at the barking at 1013 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,360 the dog trend. And like in that anthrozoology 1014 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,640 course, we learned about human psychology, we go into like 1015 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,360 human behaviour. And then what I would expect 1016 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,400 that a lot of like what people might have answered that was, 1017 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,360 you know, like social media trends, all these like social 1018 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,440 cultural phenomena. I went deep into 1019 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,760 anthropocentricism. Let's talk about the long 1020 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,240 standing history, you know, of how humans have been with 1021 00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:30,480 animals. And this I do that that that's, 1022 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,120 I think one of the big sort of theories that I really got a 1023 00:53:34,240 --> 00:53:36,760 proper grasp on in doing this assignment. 1024 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,920 So just to to briefly explain anthropocentricism is this idea 1025 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,880 of human at the centre of significance. 1026 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,880 And it's kind of how we've been conditioned to see the world 1027 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,720 like everything is relative to human and an animal is also 1028 00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:54,640 relative to human and relative to human. 1029 00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,720 Because we have this idea that humans have this rationality, 1030 00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:03,040 this self-awareness that warrants them to be recognised 1031 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,880 as the most intellectual and therefore the most significant, 1032 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,400 if that makes sense. Like that, that self-awareness. 1033 00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:12,360 And that's a system that's been, if we like peel back the layers, 1034 00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,240 even like Aristotle back to those like our earliest Western 1035 00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:19,560 philosophers were reinforcing this idea of like this great 1036 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,600 chain of being leading up to human. 1037 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,920 Like all of these things had shaped our perception and had 1038 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:30,440 shaped our expectation and this norm that like human and like 1039 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,560 like Western human is their relative point. 1040 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:40,600 And then everything else is in service of less than or like 1041 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,120 obstructing. Do you know what I mean? 1042 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,680 Yeah, what they don't have yet. Liking to Exactly. 1043 00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,680 Exactly. And then that's how I answered 1044 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,200 the essay question or that that theory was where I started 1045 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,960 answering this essay question of like, there's a social media 1046 00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,200 trend on TikTok where people bark at the dog and the dog 1047 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,080 goes, Oh my God. And the dog obviously is very 1048 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,440 upset and confused. I don't think that they expected 1049 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,720 people to go this deep because the comment was, I've never read 1050 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,880 anything like that before. And that was an effective way of 1051 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:11,080 arguing. And I was like, thank you. 1052 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,240 And so the argument was fundamentally how we've been 1053 00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:18,840 taught to perceive is that animal, especially pet dog, dog 1054 00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:20,440 has always been in service of human. 1055 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:25,360 We created dog to for them to work for humans and in in 1056 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,600 working for humans, the the, I think, difficult thing that I 1057 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,160 struggle to sit with is and they almost have to overlook their 1058 00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:37,880 own needs or ignore their own bodily needs to to be like to 1059 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,680 yeah, to be on service, which is, I think so interesting. 1060 00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,080 But like fundamentally, that's where the domestication of dogs 1061 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,640 was leading to was that it's quite helpful for humans. 1062 00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,520 You know, they used to sort of be on the outskirts of a of a 1063 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,400 western society. And then we went, you, why don't 1064 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:56,600 you come in? Here's some food. 1065 00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,600 And then we went, you could be useful for me. 1066 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,920 Come here, let's get more of you. 1067 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,240 And that's quite helpful. We can do with you. 1068 00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:05,600 Let's get more of you. And then that's how we, you 1069 00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,240 know, we then selectly we chose who's quite pitiable with the 1070 00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:10,560 human and who who's quite helpful for the human. 1071 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,320 And so so fundamentally that's then that expect of what it 1072 00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:18,320 means to be a pet dog for human. But then what else is 1073 00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,960 interesting with the development of social media is then we get 1074 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:27,480 to bond over the cuteness of dogs and this like the funniness 1075 00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,600 of dogs. So like if we take then go 1076 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:35,120 another step further, social media then like propels this way 1077 00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,640 of being with the dog where we make them have these funny 1078 00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,720 responses and then we're awarded with views. 1079 00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:44,000 So, so fundamentally we already have these expectations of I 1080 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,400 guess it's like reasonable or within reason that, yeah, this, 1081 00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,480 this is something that I can do to the dog. 1082 00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,320 Why do I need to think about if this makes them really upset 1083 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,600 because they're just, you know, they're just a funny, they're 1084 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,760 just each other funny guy. And then on top of that, social 1085 00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:03,080 media is very rewarding of is it like big dramatic responses? 1086 00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:08,040 And so all of that, I think over time it does very big impacts on 1087 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,880 how on like at least what the next generation is going to 1088 00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,680 perceive as what's normal, what normal interaction with a dog 1089 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,280 looks like. And so for the assignment, that 1090 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,880 was what I was going through and talking about. 1091 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,160 And there's a, there were a lot of things that I wanted to make 1092 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,680 posts about these thick pieces about including like thinking 1093 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,520 about colonisation, thinking about what it means to 1094 00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:31,600 decolonize the space and all these big topics that do have a 1095 00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,480 lot of imagery of violence in them that at the time I was 1096 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,880 like, I've never posted about this in a think piece before. 1097 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,520 And I think it would be, it would be a very big thing to 1098 00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,000 start off with. And I do have to ease people 1099 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,080 into thinking about these systems us like a gentle system 1100 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,680 at a time. And also to get and create the 1101 00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:54,560 expectation that we do make these kinds of posts, like we 1102 00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,520 talk about body language and we teach on behaviour, but then we 1103 00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:02,880 also make these posts that help us think about broader systems 1104 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,680 that situate our reality. And so I think that was like 1105 00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:11,720 doing that assignment was a good prompt to start that think piece 1106 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:13,360 just thinking about social media. 1107 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:14,800 Like, what do we do on social media? 1108 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,120 Oh, isn't it so interesting that this is how we use it? 1109 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,960 And then as we come into that awareness, then it's helpful to 1110 00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,880 think about, OK, that you saw the next post was then on 1111 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:26,520 unlearning control because like really that was like the crux. 1112 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,600 Like what I really wanted to get into is this piece on answer 1113 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,400 like is how do we fundamentally relate with animals? 1114 00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,280 But I thought social media, because it's still so important, 1115 00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,240 has such a big impact on the kind of messaging that we 1116 00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:43,120 propagate about goes and it normalises a lot of things that 1117 00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,960 we do that we don't question that we should. 1118 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,400 And so I thought I'd we'd start there and then we would add on 1119 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,680 to that next complex layer and then we'd add on to that next 1120 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:56,520 complex like these other layers just to get us thinking. 1121 00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,200 It's not to say that I don't know that I have an answer to 1122 00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,680 all these big spirals that I'm having yet. 1123 00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:03,240 And I don't know that will ever happen. 1124 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:07,000 Sarah, who's Cara's mom, I have these like philosophical chats 1125 00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,400 with Sarah. Sarah like runs through a lot of 1126 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:13,000 good philosophical thoughts and logic to me that helps me go, 1127 00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,240 okay, you're right, everything is not just falling apart. 1128 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,360 And one of the things that she says that is very helpful. 1129 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,440 It's not the point to have the answer to things because that in 1130 00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:26,200 itself is kind of like science going, I can find a universal 1131 00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,800 truth and there is an objective reality when actually everything 1132 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,360 is a little bit relative to our own lived experience and 1133 00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:33,920 interpretation of the world, right. 1134 00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,120 And so she's like, that's actually, you don't have to like 1135 00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,920 the, the point is not to have this answer, but to sit in a 1136 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:45,280 place where we're thinking about these things and where we create 1137 00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:49,200 a hospitable space for other people to join in and walk 1138 00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,720 through that door or to like grow a seed into fruition is 1139 00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:56,400 like a very nice thing to do, if that makes sense. 1140 00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,320 And so yes, that is the that's the root of what we've been 1141 01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,960 doing to think pieces, how we've been doing the think pieces. 1142 01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,920 And also a tad on how do I reconcile the bigness of it all 1143 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,840 and the awareness while actioning and living. 1144 01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,840 When I think about our conversation just now, I do 1145 01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,880 recognise that there will be a few people who will potentially 1146 01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:20,400 resonate. So I'm going to call this my 1147 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,520 selfish episode because really this scratches an itch for me. 1148 01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,280 I would love to be a family on the wall of your brain because I 1149 01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:32,320 think it is super interesting to open that door and walk through 1150 01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:35,400 that door and just, you know, lean in with curiosity. 1151 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,600 It's quite nice to be around or have a discussion with someone 1152 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,760 who's just like, you know, let's just explore, you know, let's 1153 01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:46,320 just unpick this thread and see where it leads. 1154 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:50,120 So the think pieces from my perspective is exactly that, 1155 01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,640 like, yeah, how does the media, not just social media but also 1156 01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:58,280 movies, Disney impact on our perception of dogs and, you 1157 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,720 know, how we bond with them and how we live with them, you know? 1158 01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,960 But then going a step further, OK, how does that impact on 1159 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,800 them, not just our perspective and where that came from, but 1160 01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,880 like how does that actually affect them and influence their 1161 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:12,840 day-to-day life? Yeah. 1162 01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,880 So yeah, it's interesting unlearning control. 1163 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,840 I would love to go into that ever so slightly because I think 1164 01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,920 someone said to me recently, when it comes to your dog, you 1165 01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,120 need to be firm but fair. And I thought. 1166 01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,800 I'm like, there's so much, there's so much nuance that 1167 01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:34,600 could trickle into that. So, oh, the piece on unlearning 1168 01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,760 control, that was a big one. I was actually any Instagram 1169 01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,560 post that I make feels like a taking of a chunk of my heart 1170 01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,680 because I put, I do I think about how to deliver this 1171 01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,160 message is a very big message to say like someone is just like 1172 01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,920 he's just going to visit Instagram on a Thursday after 1173 01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:52,400 work. What is that going to be like 1174 01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:54,240 for them? When I want to open a door, I 1175 01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:56,560 don't want to close the door. I don't want to stick a finger 1176 01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:58,920 up to anyone. I just want to go, hey, did you 1177 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,640 know that there's this door? And so there's so much time that 1178 01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,320 goes into making the post that then when it goes out to the 1179 01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,400 world, I'm like, it's in the hands of the world now. 1180 01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:08,560 It's up to them how they want to interpret it. 1181 01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,080 I just wish for the best. I get really anxious about like 1182 01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,480 the day after I post the post. I actually don't look at my 1183 01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,160 phone at all. I'm like, I'll get to it. 1184 01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,760 I'll get to the comments and just, I just hope that it lands 1185 01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:23,200 in people who give who I, who have good faith that I have good 1186 01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,280 faith and that unlearning control post. 1187 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,560 I've never been that anxious in making a post like that because 1188 01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:30,840 because it's very, it is very heavy. 1189 01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,680 And then there were comments of like, you know, this is the 1190 01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,360 biggest BS I've ever seen in my entire life. 1191 01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,440 And I go, OK, at least I know that it's gaining enough 1192 01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,120 traction that it's getting, you know, hate speech. 1193 01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:48,280 But yeah, it was a very it's a very big post because it can be 1194 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,360 interpreted in a lot of ways. It can be taken to, you know, 1195 01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,120 justify why aversive training is not good. 1196 01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:55,840 It can be. And a lot of people can then 1197 01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,720 take that and then, you know, add more fire, add more fire to 1198 01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:00,960 it. So I was like, oh gosh, it's 1199 01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,400 going to be quite scary how this will you know, but it's an 1200 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:07,160 important the message is more important than my anxiety. 1201 01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:12,440 The foundation of that post is exactly it also comes from that 1202 01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:16,080 it's it's a combination of assignment one in anthrozoology 1203 01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,320 that looked at why fundamentally do people bark at their dogs? 1204 01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:21,680 And I went, let's talk about anthropoceptricism. 1205 01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:25,840 The second assignment was then a research proposal on just like 1206 01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,240 generally people and dogs. Like within the field of 1207 01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:30,880 anthrozoology. There's like with every post, 1208 01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:32,960 there's also a lot of inspiration with every 1209 01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:35,760 assignment at that then like turns into a think piece. 1210 01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:39,120 There's a lot of like personal inspiration that then like leads 1211 01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:41,360 to the write up and then the design of the post. 1212 01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:45,000 So leading up to it, there was already this like burning fire 1213 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,400 of I need to talk about anthropocentricism because as a 1214 01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:51,040 part of like unlearning what we've been conditioned to value. 1215 01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,480 But there's also other layers. There's also other layers in 1216 01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:57,600 say, like when we think about femininity, when we think about 1217 01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,880 masculine, like masculinity that we know of, surely that's 1218 01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:04,000 playing a role. Like we see these performances, 1219 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,840 if you will, of being a certain way parallel, like like parallel 1220 01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,920 to how people are with dogs. And I was like, there's, there 1221 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:15,040 are a lot of layers pack there. And So what sort of catalysed 1222 01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,800 that aside from anthropoceptricism? 1223 01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:21,000 But then adding on to that, looking at gender, looking at 1224 01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:26,120 all these other spaces was in my spare time to not think about 1225 01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,800 dogs. I do burlesque and in the 1226 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:30,840 burlesque community that I mean, it's a really wonderful 1227 01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,240 community where we get to play with gender. 1228 01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,120 We get to challenge what we've been taught are the norms of the 1229 01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:39,640 Gen of like the binaries that we see that feminine, masculine. 1230 01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,480 And within this community, there are some incredible performers. 1231 01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,800 One of them who's actually a drag king and had come to Sydney 1232 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:49,800 to do a workshop on the workshops were defined as, you 1233 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,680 know, feminine flow and like, like mask just to just to put 1234 01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:55,640 like labels on it. But really there they're very 1235 01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,840 fluid in how they express themselves and their identity. 1236 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:02,360 Because I was like, I'm just very inspired by how comfortable 1237 01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:06,280 this person is in their skin. And I want to learn how they are 1238 01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,880 so comfortable performing this desirability and like embodying 1239 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,440 it in front of a crowd. And it's just very empowering. 1240 01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,080 Like why I do burlesque is I think there's a lot of it's a 1241 01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,440 lot of things, including it's like helping me learn and 1242 01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,880 unlearn things about my body about just the what we're taught 1243 01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,840 about identity. But it's also a way to like 1244 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,760 liberate, to actually embrace these feelings that we, like, 1245 01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:30,280 don't give ourselves permission to. 1246 01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,520 So in this workshop, the the drag king is called Charles. 1247 01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:39,600 And he was showing us like this routine where they're moving in 1248 01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:42,200 a very like sensual way. And they've got this like very 1249 01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:46,320 intense gaze in the mirror, like very intense stare that I was 1250 01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:50,240 like, I felt immediately I wanted to hide in a very, oh, it 1251 01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:52,720 feels so predatory, like I don't like it. 1252 01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,960 It feels so intense. And then they pause because I 1253 01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:58,760 can see that I was like, oh, I don't know. 1254 01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:00,200 I feel comfortable sitting with that. 1255 01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:03,520 And they're like just talking me through what this setup was like 1256 01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:07,680 what was just happened. We are in this safe space where 1257 01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:12,640 we are getting to explore like objectively this like very 1258 01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:15,600 sensual gaze. If we then like there is that 1259 01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,520 objective, like the central gaze, There's also the 1260 01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:22,240 associations of what that can feel like, especially when it's 1261 01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,760 non consensual. And then when it's with a non 1262 01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,760 consenting person, because it is very much like with with with 1263 01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,640 we're moving in like a gender bending way. 1264 01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,360 We started talking about what does masculine like what do I 1265 01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:37,000 understand of masculinity? And I was like, that's a very 1266 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,400 good question because when I think about a lot of the media 1267 01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:44,640 that's like that sort of feel like my thoughts about it, It 1268 01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:48,560 feels like masculinity feels very predatory and it feels very 1269 01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:51,240 like, it feels very non consensual and it feels very 1270 01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:54,720 like imposing. But then Charles was like, OK, 1271 01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:58,000 those are associations. What about if we think about 1272 01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,840 just this behaviour as objective moment of if we're both 1273 01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:05,360 consenting partners and if I'm like sharing with you and 1274 01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,600 holding this gaze with you in that moment and I'm enjoying it 1275 01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:12,360 and you're like, are you able to then enjoy it given that consent 1276 01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:14,600 has been given from both people too? 1277 01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:18,840 And then I was like, true. I guess it's like different to 1278 01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:23,240 like that's a separate thing to this imposing and like really 1279 01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,960 like macho kind of way of before, like way of being right. 1280 01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,240 And that's when I was like crap. Like there's things to unpack. 1281 01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:33,960 There are a lot of things to unpack now in just my 1282 01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:37,720 understanding of how we express ourselves. 1283 01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:40,640 And then of course, that sort of trickle into well, when I think 1284 01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:45,280 about how people are with dog OS, it feels like it's this 1285 01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:47,080 picture. Like especially when when I see 1286 01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:50,600 videos of people who, you know, have like, maybe I don't know 1287 01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,240 what how to describe the music, but very like epic kind of music 1288 01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:57,840 with like a really, you know, a dog who's like, yeah, like I do 1289 01:07:57,840 --> 01:07:58,680 the heel. I'm right here. 1290 01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:02,440 And they portray they've got like, you know, full gear on, 1291 01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:06,560 which feels, it feels like that. It gives me that feeling of like 1292 01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:08,760 that kind of, it's very imposing. 1293 01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:11,400 It feels very imposing. If I would ascribe a gender 1294 01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:15,800 presentation to this video, this feels really like hyper mask, 1295 01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:17,600 like that kind of mask of like a. 1296 01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,080 And that's when I started thinking, yeah, like I wonder 1297 01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:24,080 especially on this platform of social media is, is there a 1298 01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:25,960 role? Is this like, is there a 1299 01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:28,479 performance that happens in this interaction? 1300 01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:30,640 It could this be seen as a performance? 1301 01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,720 What is this? Is there a performance of a kind 1302 01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:36,080 of gender in how, like, you know, in how people are with the 1303 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:37,279 dogs? And is that significant? 1304 01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:41,760 Like is it to say is there this feeling of hyper mask is like is 1305 01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:45,720 very powerful or is very, you know, is the most yeah, in 1306 01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:47,680 control? Yeah, yeah. 1307 01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:52,479 And so that second assignment, what I then started deep diving 1308 01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:56,080 into basically this like dog training cultures and the 1309 01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:59,760 intersection of gender, thinking about if there is this 1310 01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:04,080 performance of agenda in how people appear with with their 1311 01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:06,720 dogs. And then through that. 1312 01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:10,200 So for this post, we went into control from the perspective of 1313 01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,560 human and animal. There is there is this like 1314 01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:16,680 hierarchy that we're taught. And therefore for an animal to 1315 01:09:17,279 --> 01:09:20,359 be in relation to a human, they must be under control. 1316 01:09:20,359 --> 01:09:23,520 They must be subordinate. And then I thought when it comes 1317 01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,760 to gender, there is also like when we think about the gender 1318 01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:29,080 intersections then on, on control. 1319 01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:34,640 I think even even say like being a woman in this field can also 1320 01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:37,439 be weaponized. Like it can be like your 1321 01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:40,760 emotions are weaponized because I think emotions are then 1322 01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:44,240 ascribed to this to like feminine, even though if I think 1323 01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:48,520 about if I like, take away what my associations towards feminine 1324 01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:51,960 and masculine have been and just think of them as like if I were 1325 01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,480 to put descriptors of like what I feel like good role models 1326 01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:57,760 within its category. Sometimes I actually would 1327 01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:01,760 ascribe emotionality and like compassion to masculine as well 1328 01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,080 as well as like assertive and authoritative. 1329 01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,760 But in like a the guys in Lord of the Ring kind of way where 1330 01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,640 they are protective and they're and they're quite what's the 1331 01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:13,120 word? What's the word? 1332 01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,400 It's nurturing. I like the word nurturing and 1333 01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:19,560 hospitable. Like I think about those as 1334 01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:21,560 masculine things. But if I think about, you know, 1335 01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:26,080 what we've been conditioned to, to see these like these 1336 01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:30,600 presentations of gender to be, I can see that emotionality has 1337 01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:33,200 been ascribed to this, like this feminine way of being. 1338 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:36,680 And I do think that that them can be weaponized as weaker or 1339 01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:38,720 like they're being too permissive to the dog. 1340 01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:41,600 I think that's like, that's a very interesting and not saying 1341 01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:44,960 this isn't something that, you know, I've done a full study on. 1342 01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:47,880 I would be very curious to, I think that'd be very interesting 1343 01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:52,160 to explore, but but do see some some of those patterns there in 1344 01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:55,200 that there is this perception of a kind of masculinity that is 1345 01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,360 very powerful. Like that is like celebrated and 1346 01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,800 that kind of trickles into what is perceived as valuable and how 1347 01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:04,120 people are with dogs as as is with kids. 1348 01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,880 And then on the other side, being nurturing, being emotional 1349 01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:12,280 and like expressing emotions is seen as like you're not, you 1350 01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:17,040 know, you're not, dare I say, civilised, therefore, and you're 1351 01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:20,240 not under control. And that was the neatest way 1352 01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:24,600 that I could package that post without getting too into it and 1353 01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:27,800 also without making it too personal, without being able to 1354 01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:30,160 give the context to it. Like this is the important part 1355 01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:33,240 is, you know, I've been doing burlesque just to explore 1356 01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:35,720 identity, just to understand myself. 1357 01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:38,480 And this is where these thoughts coming from. 1358 01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:41,600 So yeah, that post was hopefully enough to plant seeds, not too 1359 01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:43,280 personal like, but just enough to go. 1360 01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,360 We got to think about these things like when you get really 1361 01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,760 upset at this video, why? And when you get really upset 1362 01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:52,560 that say like someone being nurturing to the dog, why? 1363 01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:55,360 Why does that make you upset as and say with me? 1364 01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:57,720 Like when I see a video of someone being really like 1365 01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,440 domineering with the dog, why does it make me upset? 1366 01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:04,240 Yeah, yes. So those were the like, it's 1367 01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:06,560 very interesting thinking about the gender layers, the 1368 01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:09,480 anthropocentricism, like how how we've been taught to relate to 1369 01:12:09,480 --> 01:12:13,560 animal layers and how we then interact with the dog and why we 1370 01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,040 felt like control is the right way. 1371 01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,200 And then what it looks like to them to not be like in such a 1372 01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:20,440 way with animal. Yeah. 1373 01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:24,280 And then also, I guess like taking it a level further, how 1374 01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:27,840 to sit with the feelings of uncertainty when you are unable 1375 01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:31,080 to control something that is a completely separate being with 1376 01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:33,800 its own experience and its own feelings and its own everything. 1377 01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,240 Wow. It's it's hard, it's hard 1378 01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:39,320 because I guess that's where the where we have to accept that 1379 01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:43,040 this, this creature and me as a creature, we have our own 1380 01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:47,000 agency, We have our own thoughts and wants and ultimately, you 1381 01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:49,880 know, even today, and it's hard, like this is the hard part 1382 01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:53,040 because I have I'm trying to do this for you that I think might 1383 01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,440 be helpful for you. So if you just collaborated with 1384 01:12:55,440 --> 01:12:56,640 me, that would be good. You. 1385 01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:59,320 So I said that with the animal and the animal's like, no, I 1386 01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:00,760 don't think that's a safe thing to do. 1387 01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:02,360 I disagree with you and that's irrelevant. 1388 01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:04,400 I cannot do that right now. This is more important and 1389 01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:06,760 that's it can be like frustrating even today. 1390 01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:10,800 So without without cat toff, what she's been struggling with 1391 01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:13,520 is we've kind of poisoned medication and that we've hidden 1392 01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:15,840 it in foods and it's been too potent that she's gone. 1393 01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:17,560 You know what? That's in the shape of a ball. 1394 01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,520 I'm not we're not doing that. So what we're having to teach 1395 01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:23,560 tough is build up this system where she comes. 1396 01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:26,960 She understands when she comes onto this mat and positions her 1397 01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:29,920 head a certain way. It's a start button for I pop a 1398 01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:32,320 pill in and they give her a treat at the end of it. 1399 01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,160 But it's a very slow process of building it up and then adding 1400 01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:38,880 to that. She is cat in in that she will 1401 01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:41,240 tell me when she's had enough and she's quite bored and she's 1402 01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:44,400 done or like she'll be like this is this feels very unsuccessful 1403 01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:46,200 for me and that's frustrating. I don't want to do it. 1404 01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,320 I give up. So it's like like working with 1405 01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:50,360 at that time frame today she'd been out. 1406 01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:52,680 We have a little courtyard that she likes to have a hunt in. 1407 01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,280 And then she came back, she was sprawled out on the floor. 1408 01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:57,240 And I was really excited to tell my partner. 1409 01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:59,520 I was like, hey, look, we've we've gotten to this point with 1410 01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:00,840 Toff. Toff will do this. 1411 01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:02,320 And then I got everything set out. 1412 01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:04,280 I got the mat set out. I have a little target stick for 1413 01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:05,800 her. And I was like, yeah, Are you 1414 01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:06,560 ready? Are you ready? 1415 01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,040 We're going to do this thing. And then Toff like gets really 1416 01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:11,920 excited because she knows this setup and she knows it treats. 1417 01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:14,640 And then I have the target stick out and then she doesn't once or 1418 01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:16,520 twice she's like, I boop it cool. 1419 01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:18,720 I boop it cool. And then she sort of finishes 1420 01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:22,120 and she looks at the stick and then she's like, and then she 1421 01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:24,880 like notices something else. And then she notices something 1422 01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,280 else. And I'm like, I'm like, no, I 1423 01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:30,400 really want to show. I really want to show the human 1424 01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:31,760 what, what we've been able to do. 1425 01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:34,560 And then I just, I'm also like a little bit sleep deprived. 1426 01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,760 I like felt this frustration, frustration at myself because 1427 01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:40,120 I'm like, I just want to keep pushing through. 1428 01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:42,320 Like I just wade through. I just wade through click time 1429 01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:44,080 to click a row. And I was like, it just got in 1430 01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:46,920 my head about it. And then my partner says 1431 01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:48,960 something. They're like, she's just she's a 1432 01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:50,160 cat. She's like wanted to do 1433 01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:52,600 something else. She's cat, you know, like you're 1434 01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:55,280 human and she's cat. She wanted a different thing. 1435 01:14:55,440 --> 01:14:57,720 You wanted a thing and then she wanted a different thing. 1436 01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:00,240 And I was like, it's true. And she was like, you know, 1437 01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:04,240 Toffle, Toffle also have hard days, good days, bad days, days 1438 01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:05,680 where she doesn't really want to do something. 1439 01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:08,400 And I was like, it's true. And then of course, there will 1440 01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:10,400 be other contexts where, you know, you want this 1441 01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:12,920 collaboration, you want this thing to do together. 1442 01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:15,360 And then you're just on sort of two different wavelengths. 1443 01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:18,480 And it it is, it would be frustrating for both. 1444 01:15:18,480 --> 01:15:20,720 And I guess you do get to acknowledge that for yourself, 1445 01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:24,600 that, gosh, that was that was frustrating, maybe because I 1446 01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:26,400 wanted to do a good thing for this. 1447 01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:29,040 That they don't know is they don't realise it's important for 1448 01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:30,880 them to be able to have a good day tomorrow. 1449 01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,680 But then the animal, like the kiddo was like, no, that's not 1450 01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:35,560 it. I disagree. 1451 01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:38,040 And it's frustrating. I guess in that moment, you just 1452 01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:41,400 go, it's a gay little rose. It's OK. 1453 01:15:41,440 --> 01:15:43,400 It's not, It's not that big of a deal, actually. 1454 01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:45,040 It's not gonna kill you. Yeah. 1455 01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:46,760 Yeah. But it is hard. 1456 01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:51,520 It is hard it we are confronted with those experiences wherever 1457 01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:56,920 we go, whether it's, you know, in parking or driving or at work 1458 01:15:56,920 --> 01:16:01,360 with colleagues or bosses and then family members and, you 1459 01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:05,680 know, again, dogs, the government, social media, the 1460 01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,800 media everywhere, right? It's like you, you have your 1461 01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:12,560 agenda, I have my agenda, you have your agenda, I have my 1462 01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:15,040 agenda. We're all falling around needs. 1463 01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:20,280 And yeah, it's, it's interesting what comes up when those needs 1464 01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:23,840 aren't being met or when we're unable to communicate what those 1465 01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:27,600 needs are in a clear, calm and, you know, confident way. 1466 01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:31,360 Even in acknowledging that we do have our own agenda is actually 1467 01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:36,400 giving so much legitimacy and credibility to to actually us 1468 01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:40,280 being emotional beings like who deserve our own emotionality and 1469 01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:45,160 who deserve the liberation and the like agency to be emotional, 1470 01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:47,960 to be emotional beings. That is, that is a bit of an aha 1471 01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:53,440 moment because because when you can identify that you're feeling 1472 01:16:53,440 --> 01:16:57,400 that rise of emotion, you know, however big or small it might 1473 01:16:57,400 --> 01:16:59,680 be, you're then able to identify. 1474 01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:04,000 OK, this is me needing to realign my expectations instead 1475 01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:07,880 of cry and scream because you know, I'm you're not doing what 1476 01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:10,160 I need you to do right now. Why not don't have that? 1477 01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:14,760 My life would be so much easier if you just and you know, we 1478 01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:18,000 have that with dogs, but obviously we can't speak each 1479 01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:20,000 others language. Most of us. 1480 01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:23,000 For me, it's still a journey with do not, but just a teeny 1481 01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:25,920 tiny example. I was reflecting on yesterday is 1482 01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,480 like, since I've had her for the last month, I've been trying to 1483 01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:30,520 take her out for a wee four times a day. 1484 01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:33,360 She doesn't even have to, but just give her the opportunity 1485 01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:35,600 and the routine and the structure that she knows she 1486 01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:38,320 doesn't have to worry, right? So good intentions. 1487 01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:42,320 So yeah, she has a harness and after the morning we in the 1488 01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,680 afternoon, she doesn't want me to put the harness on. 1489 01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:48,120 So I started interpreting that as this little game that we 1490 01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:50,440 play. I show our harness and she goes 1491 01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:53,280 and I'm like, oh, come on, we're going to go for a walk. 1492 01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:55,160 You're going to love it. I just need to get you 1493 01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:57,120 downstairs and you're going to have a sniff and. 1494 01:17:58,160 --> 01:17:59,720 You haven't we. We need you to we. 1495 01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:04,360 Exactly, this isn't we #2 like we need to go for we #2 because 1496 01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:07,600 I don't want to clean up anything in case it happens 1497 01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:09,200 indoors. I don't want to have any 1498 01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:11,680 accidents. I want to make sure that you are 1499 01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:14,360 comfortable and structured and that you make the most of this 1500 01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:16,400 opportunity that I've given you. You know? 1501 01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:19,520 So it's like once I started realising that actually she has 1502 01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:23,000 a potential injury that I'm currently looking into, I 1503 01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:27,040 started realising shit, I'm forcing her to go downstairs, up 1504 01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,280 and up and down to flights of stairs four times a day. 1505 01:18:30,480 --> 01:18:34,000 This 8 year old Galgo and she's been trying to tell me actually 1506 01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:35,800 I don't want to go for a wee right now. 1507 01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:39,480 I'm comfortable up here. And so there were moments within 1508 01:18:39,480 --> 01:18:42,320 the last month where I felt niggles of frustration where I 1509 01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:44,200 was like, why won't you just go for a wee? 1510 01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:48,080 Because then I can relax. So going back to those feelings 1511 01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:51,560 and being confronted with them and being able to self reflect 1512 01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:55,960 but also recognising the moment my agenda isn't serving her and 1513 01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:58,920 tuning into her needs will make our bond stronger. 1514 01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:02,360 Yeah, it's such a big thing for you to like, reflect on it. 1515 01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:05,920 It's such a big moment for her. It would have made her feel 1516 01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:09,200 really understood, even though it feels like a small thing 1517 01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:11,680 where you just get OK, I guess I'll just oh, OK, OK. 1518 01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:13,960 I kind of OK, fine. We don't have to because they're 1519 01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:15,920 so attuned to our social pressure. 1520 01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:18,640 Every time we have intention, Like if I'm like Cat, you're 1521 01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:20,320 going to get on the table because we're going to do this 1522 01:19:20,320 --> 01:19:22,280 thing. It's like it's a shift in the 1523 01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:24,360 air that they feel. They're like, you want me to do 1524 01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:27,800 this thing, even if say like we're like ready to go home. 1525 01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:30,840 I might like slightly turn my body to go and then it's like 1526 01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:33,080 she wants to go home. I don't know already yet. 1527 01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:36,160 Like they, they feel that so that the fact that we then take 1528 01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:40,080 the pressure off if we just go, OK, you know what, Like I can 1529 01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:42,720 recognise this is something that's making me quite upset. 1530 01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:45,760 Maybe there's a few things that I can put in place like soothe 1531 01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:47,320 that. And like, should the worst case 1532 01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:50,960 happen, let me just accept that because you have this need right 1533 01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:51,880 now. And you know what? 1534 01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:54,760 I just, it can just be that it doesn't reflect anything about 1535 01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:56,320 me. It is just a OK. 1536 01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,600 And like, this is a youth that does such a big thing for her. 1537 01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:03,280 Yeah, it did make a difference and we continue to build on 1538 01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:05,160 that. But that that is seen in lots of 1539 01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:07,480 things, you know, going for a walk, we're going this way. 1540 01:20:07,480 --> 01:20:08,960 No, but they want sniff that way. 1541 01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:11,480 I see it all the time. No, we're going here. 1542 01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:13,320 Sometimes it might be for safety. 1543 01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:16,520 Sometimes it might be a lack of time, someone having their own 1544 01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:18,520 agenda or urgency to get somewhere. 1545 01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:22,600 So I think relating this back to control and the subconscious 1546 01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:27,200 need for control and order and structure and my, it's, it's 1547 01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:32,800 really taxing to shift that brain and mindset from human 1548 01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:36,800 centric, my me centric to animal centric. 1549 01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:40,320 Let me try and figure out what you need in this moment and 1550 01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:43,080 whether I can meet you there. Yeah, it's big. 1551 01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:45,800 We're working it out. We're just I guess that's the 1552 01:20:46,080 --> 01:20:49,760 like living it and letting it be emotional is doing it. 1553 01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:52,680 That is that's doing it. That's that is like, you know, 1554 01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:55,640 we kind of talked about before you jumped on this podcast, like 1555 01:20:55,640 --> 01:20:59,000 being in relationship with another sensitive person. 1556 01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:02,040 Like it, it just is more sensitive and emotional, and you 1557 01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:05,000 do have to just have more conversations about when things 1558 01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:08,360 are like, what things are hard, How do we navigate that together 1559 01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:11,080 and how do we show up for each other given we're both, you 1560 01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:12,720 know, being feeling sensitive people? 1561 01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:15,360 I guess that's the same thing that we're doing for the Duggo. 1562 01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:17,440 And in that case, it's like we're living it. 1563 01:21:17,440 --> 01:21:20,240 We're asking this question, but we're also living it. 1564 01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:22,800 Yeah, to keep it. Benefits us, it benefits them, 1565 01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:24,800 and it benefits our relationship together. 1566 01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,720 Yeah, so many different things. We touched on if it opens the 1567 01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:32,520 door for anyone, even one single person, you know this was worth 1568 01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:34,720 it. If anyone has made it this far, 1569 01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:37,080 I commend you. Well done for sticking with us 1570 01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:39,360 and I hope you got so much from this conversation. 1571 01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:42,280 Rose, where can people find out more about you? 1572 01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:45,560 I will put your details in the show notes anyway, but what's 1573 01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:50,000 the best way to reach out to you and what for? 1574 01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,440 Yeah, good, great question. So I think the best way to find 1575 01:21:53,440 --> 01:21:56,600 out more about me and the work that we talked about today is to 1576 01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:02,120 go on Instagram and search at Rose ROSE letter K #9 1577 01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:06,080 behaviourist with AU. So yes, spelt spelt with AU in 1578 01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:08,720 the middle. That's where a lot of these like 1579 01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:11,760 big thoughts and the research that we're doing, the questions 1580 01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:15,400 that we're asking gets put into quite digestible form, as well 1581 01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:17,760 as more education. If you want to get to know, if 1582 01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:20,720 you want to know more about behaviour, body language, how we 1583 01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:23,680 go about rehabilitation, that's, that's where to go. 1584 01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:26,080 And I would say from the Instagram page, you can actually 1585 01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:31,600 press e-mail. e-mail is the best way to get in contact and like, 1586 01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:35,520 and I will definitely get back to an e-mail because it does not 1587 01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:37,200 get lost. Sometimes on Instagram, it can 1588 01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:41,200 kind of get lost in Adm piled. So best way to reach out is by 1589 01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:43,920 emailing. And do you have anything 1590 01:22:43,920 --> 01:22:46,320 exciting coming up that I should be aware of? 1591 01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:49,240 We should be aware of. A lot of exciting things coming 1592 01:22:49,240 --> 01:22:52,560 up, although I will say, I keep saying this that we're, we're 1593 01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:55,200 humans in progress. We're always learning as we're 1594 01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:57,920 going. I would say I'm a lot more 1595 01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:01,840 skilled as a practitioner than I was, you know, years ago. 1596 01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:04,840 There's still so much that I'm learning with every doggo case, 1597 01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:10,920 especially we have, I'd say like 70% of my caseload right now are 1598 01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:14,080 dogs where they're have like there's there's evidence of 1599 01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:17,320 chronic pain, like pain or discomfort that's lasted more 1600 01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:20,680 than three to six months. And there is so little research 1601 01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,880 on what is what is this journey? What is rehabilitation? 1602 01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:28,240 What is long term best practise for doggo who presents with pain 1603 01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:30,680 as as there is, you know, it's still a place where we're 1604 01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:33,680 exploring that for humans. And so with every dog case, I 1605 01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:36,640 have an incredible team who works with me with every case. 1606 01:23:36,640 --> 01:23:39,800 We learn so much about the dog and so much about what is really 1607 01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:41,360 healing for the human and dog here. 1608 01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:44,520 So I guess just keep just keep on that page because we just 1609 01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,520 keep learning and there are going to be projects coming out 1610 01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:50,480 based on what we've learned. Are you working on a think 1611 01:23:50,480 --> 01:23:52,160 piece? If so, what is it about? 1612 01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:57,160 What's the next one? It's a good question. 1613 01:23:57,160 --> 01:24:00,200 I'm always, there's so many thoughts, lots of thoughts going 1614 01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:02,880 on up in here. The next think piece is thinking 1615 01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:06,840 about how do we reconcile. So in say Western medicine, 1616 01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:11,680 we're very big on pathologizing like this is a problem, mental 1617 01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:14,720 health is a problem, or this physical ailment is a problem. 1618 01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:18,520 And that can be quite shaming. It can be very like, you know, 1619 01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,440 what if people don't have the resources to do this kind of 1620 01:24:21,440 --> 01:24:23,920 best practise way for this problem. 1621 01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:27,520 And so that's something that I'm sitting with is how do we 1622 01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:32,880 decolonize medical practise, behavioural support for dogs, 1623 01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:35,400 for dog behaviour. And that I think is going to 1624 01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:39,240 have to be an all nighter research and then conceptualise 1625 01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:42,320 because there's a lot to learn from from like radical models in 1626 01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:45,800 human human mental health is even like thinking about what is 1627 01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:50,240 the role of the therapist of the person who is supporting the the 1628 01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:53,040 person in need. How much involvement, say like 1629 01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:55,200 we have in Western perspective best practise. 1630 01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:56,640 There is a professional distance. 1631 01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:59,280 And we do have to think about how, you know, we've been taught 1632 01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:02,200 to be only this much involved for for the person. 1633 01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:05,200 But what if it's a community effort in in human mental 1634 01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:09,000 health, there is such a thing as like what was it called mutual 1635 01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:13,120 aid where we rely on community, including the practitioner to do 1636 01:25:13,120 --> 01:25:15,760 a little bit of that practical support to help the person, 1637 01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:18,320 whether it is starting to look at how do you raise funds for 1638 01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:21,800 this or how do you help connect this person to people. 1639 01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:26,240 So there are lots of different things to explore to help human 1640 01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:30,000 and dog outside of what we're learning in the institution that 1641 01:25:30,320 --> 01:25:32,040 that's going to give me my letters to be able to say, 1642 01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:34,520 great, I know a clinical animal behaviour, but there's still 1643 01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:37,040 more to to explore. So that's, that's what I'm 1644 01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:39,320 sitting with that I don't have answers about. 1645 01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:41,480 And the think piece is just going to be, is going to be 1646 01:25:41,480 --> 01:25:44,360 about how we got to think about these things. 1647 01:25:44,440 --> 01:25:46,800 I don't have answers, but we're sitting with it. 1648 01:25:46,840 --> 01:25:50,840 And I, I guess in a way I do have to another phrase that 1649 01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:53,760 Sarah teaches me is like, learn the trade of like learn the 1650 01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:55,800 tools of the master to then take it down, right? 1651 01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:59,120 Like we do have to still sit in this system and then like, you 1652 01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:03,280 know, grow within this system and understand the depths of how 1653 01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:08,040 it works before we then think about like radical ways to to 1654 01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:09,520 change it. So 100. 1655 01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:12,480 Percent. It's a Mr Miyagi moment. 1656 01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:18,040 Mr Miyagi moment. Roxanne works off she sounds 1657 01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:22,400 like an amazing not coach, but like just, you know, someone who 1658 01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:26,680 who kind of is quite reflective, but like giving you guidance and 1659 01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:28,520 and. Well, you're going to have to 1660 01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:30,800 talk to Sarah. You'll have to talk to Sarah. 1661 01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:33,480 If when I think she's like definitely busy in her. 1662 01:26:33,480 --> 01:26:36,560 She's doing her PhD now. It's like, and she's, but yes, 1663 01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:38,880 she's a very. She's had a lot of life. 1664 01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:40,800 She's lived a lot of life. Sarah. 1665 01:26:41,040 --> 01:26:44,600 Yeah. Thank you so much for your time 1666 01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:48,600 on a Saturday in the evening, joining me all the way from 1667 01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:51,240 Sydney, Australia. I'm so, so grateful and I'm so 1668 01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:53,320 glad we finally got to have this conversation. 1669 01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:54,760 Thank you for coming on the podcast. 1670 01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:58,000 We tickled. My heart, my heart is chocolate, 1671 01:26:58,000 --> 01:27:00,800 chocolate liquid in right. How do I it doesn't have the 1672 01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:04,680 same room when I say chocolate. Yeah, this is this is something 1673 01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:07,480 that tickles my heart too. It really does it so that and 1674 01:27:07,480 --> 01:27:10,360 that's why it's I have a lot of enjoyment doing it in my in my 1675 01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:12,040 spare time. I really appreciate this 1676 01:27:12,040 --> 01:27:14,680 opportunity, Nadine. It's my absolute pleasure. 1677 01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:19,920 I could not not have you on here, Rose. 1678 01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:22,240 I wish you a lovely rest of your weekend. 1679 01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:23,920 And yeah, thank you for coming on.