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Hello, I'm your host Nadine. 
This week on Just a Dog podcast.

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I'm joined by Hannah Greenough, 
founder of Canine Needs and the 

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creator of Canine Facilitated 
Coaching, a holistic Wellness 

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process exploring the bond 
between human and dog as a path 

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to growth, healing and 
self-awareness. 

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With nearly 15 years in the 
field and formal training under 

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the late John Rogerson, Hannah 
brings a relationship first 

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observation LED approach to 
canine behaviour. 

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She's accredited by multiple 
bodies including the Guild of 

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Dog Trainers and the Association
of Coaching and has featured on 

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Sky News and Channel 4. 
Hannah now works mostly online 

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and in London, while also 
volunteering for the Blue Cross 

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Pet Loss Support Team and 
supporting rescue dogs in 

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Portugal through fostering and 
rehoming. 

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This conversation goes far 
beyond behaviour into trust, 

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healing and the quiet ways that 
dogs mirror our inner worlds. 

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Enjoy. 
Hi Hannah, it's so lovely to 

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have you here. 
How are you today? 

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Hi, Nadine. 
Yes, I'm very good. 

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Thank you. 
How are you? 

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Yeah, good, really, really good 
doing us on the sofas using and 

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we've just had a lovely little 
walk and yeah, I was looking 

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forward to our chat today. 
Where are you dialling in from? 

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Are you in Portugal? 
I am in Portugal at the moment. 

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Amazing, Has winter hit yet? 
No, it's still like late 20s, so

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just just right. 
I'm so envious. 

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Goodness, we've actually been 
really lucky today, weather 

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wise. 
It's been a beautifully sunny 

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day. 
But yeah, I am feeling the cold 

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creeping in. 
But I'm brave today because I'm 

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wearing my T-shirt. 
It's a Goofles original. 

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Oh, I love it. 
I love it. 

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It's great on you. 
Thank you. 

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Right, so let's get straight 
into it because there's a lot of

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ground to cover. 
Firstly, I'd like to learn more 

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about you and your journey when 
it comes to dogs. 

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So if you want to start with 
maybe the first dog that you 

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owned and then how that 
relationship LED you to where 

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you are today. 
Yes. 

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So we always had border collies 
growing up. 

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My mum is obsessed with border 
collies. 

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She thinks there's no other dog 
breed for her and so she'll 

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always have them. 
And so the great thing about 

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Border Collies is they make you 
feel like an amazing dog trainer

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when you are not necessarily. 
So as a child, I really just, 

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you know, thought that that was 
my thing. 

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Like I could train dogs, but 
really it was just Border 

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Collies were very good at 
understanding my thoughts about 

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what I wanted. 
So I think like our first dog, I

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was maybe I want to say like, 
like I think it was a baby and 

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I've obviously got pictures of 
her Holly, she was called. 

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But my first memory I was I 
think because I think we had 

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some bad luck with border 
collies in the beginning. 

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Like they got the first one, got
ill and died. 

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The second one, there was a 
problem with her as well. 

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And by the third one, actually 
my, my parents ended up 

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splitting up and we had to 
rehome the third one. 

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So we really didn't have good 
luck with dogs in the beginning.

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And then I think it, I wasn't, I
was maybe 8 when we got our 

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family dog that I, that we 
remember, remember growing up, 

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growing up with. 
So that was and then we got 

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another one when I was 9 which 
has. 

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Lots of border collies. 
They didn't know at the time 

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that that was not a good thing 
to do. 

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So we had these two border 
Collies, and they were sisters. 

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And they were also a bit of a 
nightmare. 

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But I used to take them to dog 
training classes by myself. 

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Like go up the road to the 
village hall and, you know, like

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walk around in a circle with an 
old lady shouting at you, you 

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know, like that sort of thing. 
And then I used to do 

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competitions with them, like 
obedience competitions. 

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Like my mum would drop me off at
the start of the day and pick me

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up at the end of the day and I'd
be like I got a rise out. 

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Let's see it. 
Cute. 

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Yeah. 
So that's kind of how it started

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with border collies and and a 
run of bad luck, I guess. 

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Did you live in a countryside or
in a city? 

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No, I grew up in Bristol, so we 
weren't really in the 

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countryside, but the countryside
was only about 10 or 15 minutes 

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away. 
And then when I was a teenager, 

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I had horses, so I used to and I
I felt like that was before 

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agility was a thing because we 
used to take the dogs around the

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show jumps. 
So how did you cope with having 

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a working dog in AI Guess urban 
environment? 

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Yeah, well, the first three, I 
think we lived somewhere in like

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the East, like by the sea. 
I felt like it's like East 

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Anglia somewhere by the sea. 
But yeah, the the ones where I 

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was growing up, we, well, I was 
always busy with them, so. 

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And it was, I was kind of like 
one of those geeky kids that was

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a tomboy and didn't really, you 
know, I was always outside 

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playing with slow worms and 
always just sort of training the

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dogs and playing with the dogs. 
And so that was kind of my 

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childhood, really. 
So I was always outdoors. 

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And even though we weren't 
necessarily in the countryside, 

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like we had a massive park and 
then we were always in the 

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street. 
Like back then, people used to 

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let their dogs out of the door, 
I'm sure my age. 

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And people used to let their 
dogs out of the door. 

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And then, you know, they'd 
poodle around down the street or

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whatever and come back home 
again when they were ready. 

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OK. 
Then the dog warden came and 

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started picking up dogs. 
But really, it wasn't like how 

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it is now. 
Like we used to walk past dogs 

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in the park and you just say, 
hey, you know, your dogs 

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wouldn't play. 
They would just walk past each 

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other. 
It was a very different dog 

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culture when I was a kid. 
What do you think, like without 

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going kind of sidetracking too 
much, but what do you think is 

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the main difference between? 
Because I didn't grow up in the 

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UK, I came here when I was about
15. 

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So yeah, what what was? 
What's the biggest change 

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between then and now? 
It's it's the definition of the 

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word socialisation. 
So when we talk about puppy 

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socialisation, it should be 
teaching AI think the second 

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definition is teaching a being 
to behave according to its 

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social status. 
So for a dog that would be 

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learning to like actually ignore
other dogs in public, but also 

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sitting under the table, a Cafe 
behaving on a train, you know, 

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like all being exposed to things
that they'll need to acclimatise

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advised to later on. 
But we obviously see it as like 

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the puppy socialisation parties 
or like the they should be 

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playing with other dogs. 
And that's really the key 

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difference. 
Interesting. 

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OK, so it's not that there's 
just way more dogs. 

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But also, yeah, there was, there
was well, I would think like 

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logically it seems like there 
would be way more dogs. 

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I don't have any figures to 
support that. 

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I just feel like it that would, 
that would make sense, but also 

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I feel like, especially because 
my business is based in London, 

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like I've always just worked in 
London. 

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And the other interesting thing 
about London is people generally

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don't really have like family 
around them. 

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And so, and I think a lot of 
people in London are quite 

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lonely. 
And I've definitely had clients 

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that like have got dogs to meet 
people to kind of be in like a 

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social group that that allows 
them. 

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You know, people are much 
friendlier when you go out with 

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a dog, everyone wants to stop 
and speak to you. 

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And so I think that has a lot to
do with it in London, is that 

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people will get dogs to kind of 
help with their loneliness. 

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But then it means that they're 
stood around in groups, talking 

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to each other, the people, and 
then obviously the dogs are just

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running around them in circles, 
getting into loads of trouble 

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and kind of going a bit far off.
Yeah, that's true. 

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Are you still? 
Do you still travel to London 

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often from Portugal? 
Yeah, I still work in London, 

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yeah. 
So I go there probably every few

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months, recover some in London, 
yeah. 

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What do you do for work? 
I'm a dog behaviourist and 

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trainer and I mean I have 
fingers and a lot of pies, but 

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generally like I'm a dog trainer
and behaviourist. 

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That's kind of my main part of 
my business. 

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And so all of my clients are 
generally based in London. 

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Like I do do a little bit in 
Portugal, but more for like 

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people that need help really. 
Like I'd like to give back the 

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amount this like I like to keep 
it balanced so that I give back.

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And then I have different 
aspects of my business like the 

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puppy match service is matching 
people with the right puppy to 

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try and avoid what used to be, 
to try to avoid puppy farms, 

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which is a little bit better 
than it used to be. 

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And I do business consulting and
I have a new service called 

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Canine facilitated coaching, 
which is so basically everything

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I do with with dogs revolves 
around relationship. 

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So when I'm training and 
analysing dogs behaviour, I'm 

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really looking at the 
relationships between the dogs 

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and their family and the dynamic
that's in play there. 

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And that does, for me provides 
like huge results, like, and 

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that's how I've always trained 
through the relationship with 

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the people. 
But there's definitely a limit 

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to that. 
Like, I feel like sometimes I 

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would come up against, for 
example, like there'd be this 

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little toy poodle that was very 
yuppie at the door. 

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And so, you know, I would do 
training with her and she was 

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fine and everything went well. 
But then when the dog was with 

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her owner, the dog was just so 
sensitive to sound. 

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And eventually what we worked 
out is that it's the owners 

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really exaggerated startle 
response that was setting the 

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dog off. 
And so basically to help the 

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dog, I had to end up, I ended up
having to separate the dog and 

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the owner because the owner 
couldn't control her startle 

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response. 
So if she heard a sound, she 

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would go and obviously the dog 
could not go nuts. 

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Right. 
So there's definitely limits to 

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like where you could go with dog
behaviour when you need to get 

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results and you're like, OK, 
well, we can't really help you 

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with your starter response 
because I'm not like in that 

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world. 
So just going to have to 

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separate you guys. 
So now what I'm seeing is, and 

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this will probably relate to a 
lot of dog behaviourists is and 

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and we do talk about this all 
the time as dog professionals 

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anyway, but really like our 
relationships with our dogs have

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a lot of our personal 
projections in them. 

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And some of them or most of them
aren't necessarily very 

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accurate. 
For example, like one of my 

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earlier examples of this was we 
had a deaf border collie just a 

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few years ago. 
She's died now, but my mum was, 

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you know, sometimes feels left 
out. 

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The family she lives with three 
boys, She's got a bit fed up 

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with it. 
But when our border collie went 

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deaf, she was like, oh, poor 
Gem. 

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She must be so sad that she 
can't hear anyone talking to her

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anymore. 
But I was obviously knowing 

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Gem's behaviour, the dog, and 
she was fine because she reads 

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things, you know, like reads 
facial expressions and body 

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language anyway. 
So why was why would my mom say 

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that? 
What a strange thing to say 

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because the dog's actually fine.
She might have, you know, taken 

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a while to adapt to being deaf, 
but she was fine at that point. 

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And I realised that she wasn't 
talking about the dog, she was 

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talking about herself because 
she's living in a house full of 

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boys. 
I'm obviously mostly over. 

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Like, I'd spend a lot of time in
Portugal and she doesn't have 

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that or didn't at the time have 
that connection that she was 

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yearning for. 
And that was being expressed 

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through her interpretation of 
what was happening with the dog.

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And then about four years ago or
so, my relationship with my 

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daughter's dad broke down. 
And then I got into so many 

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relationship rabbit holes. 
Like I was really like it got 

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into it, you know, like hit rock
bottom and I'm like scrolling 

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around in the depths of the 
darkest holes. 

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And I realised like I learned a 
lot and I did a lot of self 

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study. 
I did a life coaching course. 

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I like, I really got into it and
I realised that it was just 

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constantly in front of me when I
was working with people and 

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their dogs. 
And so it just repeated all the 

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00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,240
time and I had a lot of 
resistance around. 

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00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,200
Like, I don't care, I'm 
facilitating coaching. 

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00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,640
Like what is this? 
I'm not, I can't facilitate this

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00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:01,320
whole new, you know, innovative 
thing by myself, like without 

230
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:02,520
really knowing what I'm talking 
about. 

231
00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,280
But it just never went away. 
And so I was like, OK, fine, 

232
00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,720
I'll do it. 
So, so how do people find you as

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in like firstly, how do you find
clients or how do these clients 

234
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,160
find you? 
And what are some of the typical

235
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or common challenges that they 
face that they come to you for? 

236
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,400
So, well, finding me, I mean 
really at the moment it's 

237
00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,600
probably through Instagram, 
which is at Hannah Greeno 

238
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,640
underscore. 
Slugs are welcome. 

239
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,880
Yeah, because I'm redoing my 
website at the moment. 

240
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,960
It needs a bit of like 
modernization and but also word 

241
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,960
of mouth and I kind of move in a
lot of these like women's circly

242
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,840
places. 
So like, you know, putting it 

243
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:52,840
there and in the Wellness area 
racing basically with, you know,

244
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,720
people that in Wellness that 
have a dog those I'm kind of 

245
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,120
merging those two zones. 
Yeah, that's really interesting.

246
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,120
That's really fascinating 
because yeah, I mean there are 

247
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,560
lots of parallels to be drawn 
between our relationships with 

248
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:08,600
dogs versus, you know, our 
relationship with the world and 

249
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our environment and our own 
behaviour and reflection and 

250
00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:14,360
internalisation and experience 
etcetera, etcetera. 

251
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:19,040
So you've just connected the two
and seen OK, yes, dogs need 

252
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,280
help, but actually their owners 
do. 

253
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,040
Yeah, and I think because my 
sort of clientele are, you know,

254
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,560
women mostly, but also people 
that really love their dogs so, 

255
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:33,240
so much, which I love. 
Obviously I'm like, all my, the 

256
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,680
times are amazing, but there's 
just an element of like, and 

257
00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:40,400
especially because I also do pet
loss support for Blue Cross. 

258
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,200
So I'm on the phones listening, 
you know, on speaking to people 

259
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,880
about grief and, and losing 
their dogs. 

260
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,280
And there's just this whole 
theme that I couldn't shake or 

261
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:56,400
get away from that is quite hard
to describe, but it's, it's 

262
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,440
really almost as if we're 
running away from ourselves. 

263
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,400
You are dogs. 
Yeah. 

264
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,320
And but because, you know, we 
have so much love to give and we

265
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,840
have so much caring. 
And, you know, maybe back in the

266
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,120
day or at some point in history,
that would be channelled into, 

267
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,040
you know, much more like 
community living or, you know, 

268
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,200
you would always have to worry 
about, you know, be taking care 

269
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,680
of somebody else or the elderly 
in the community or the elders 

270
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,280
or the children or whatever it 
was. 

271
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,440
But where we don't necessarily 
have that a lot now, I think 

272
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,560
that we're taking this whole 
innate thing that we have, 

273
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,440
especially as women, but humans 
in general, this innate offering

274
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,120
that that we kind of have in US 
and driving it all into our dogs

275
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,280
instead of a huge community. 
And so our dogs don't 

276
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,120
necessarily need all of that. 
And in fact, in some cases, it 

277
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,320
creates more problems than it 
solves. 

278
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,320
And so I'm working a lot with 
these sorts of people. 

279
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,440
I think actually, you know, if 
we had like a percentage of that

280
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,880
for our inner child or for 
ourselves or for our self-care 

281
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,120
and, and well-being or 
relationships with ourselves, 

282
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,480
then that could really, really 
improve people's lives. 

283
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,320
And the reason that I'm kind of 
targeting the Wellness space is 

284
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,600
because I'm after people that 
are already looking for like 

285
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,720
trying to improve their lives 
because it can get 

286
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,600
uncomfortable. 
And, and to answer your 

287
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,560
question, like what I see a lot 
of is guilt, really, I see a lot

288
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,560
of guilt. 
Like people just feel so, so 

289
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,200
guilty about their dogs and 
their dogs lives. 

290
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,600
And, you know, on one hand, I'm 
working with rehabilitating like

291
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,720
rescue dogs. 
So I'll Foster and rehome dogs 

292
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,480
as well. 
And I think, well, those ones 

293
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,280
you can feel sorry for, not the 
ones that have everything that 

294
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,440
they ever wanted, you know, sat 
in their crazy bed cuddling 

295
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:41,840
their owners, you know, like 
they have. 

296
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,280
I think there's no reason to to 
feel guilty about their quality 

297
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,720
of life, which is incredible, or
what they're providing them or 

298
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,040
yeah, maybe they feel guilty 
about. 

299
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,960
I mean, it can be, it can be all
sorts of things, but just 

300
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,360
generally the daily life that 
they're providing for their dog.

301
00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:01,360
Oh I feel so bad for him because
of nothing but something. 

302
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,280
I totally understand. 
That resonates with me now 

303
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,040
because I feel guilt about 
having do non elite. 

304
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:13,280
I feel guilt about her having to
walk two flights of stairs as a 

305
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:19,560
greyhound, feel guilty about not
having a space that is enclosed 

306
00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,120
so she can run free. 
Yeah, lots of little bits 

307
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,280
throughout the day, you know, 
having to jump in the back of my

308
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,720
car and not having steps for 
her. 

309
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,400
Like, I just want to treat her 
like the queen that she is, you 

310
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,240
know? 
But it's Where do you think that

311
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,600
comes from? 
Naturally, like I think we would

312
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,560
have, and also it's kind of the 
luxury of, of life now is we 

313
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,720
have less concerns, OK. 
We have, you know, lots of 

314
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,640
concerns globally and, and you 
know, you can really get into 

315
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,240
the news and get yourself 
concerned. 

316
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:51,320
But generally speaking, like our
daily lives are quite smooth, 

317
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,640
probably compared to how they've
been in the past. 

318
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,280
This is what I imagine is 
happening and I think there's 

319
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,120
probably lots of different 
aspects to it as well. 

320
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:05,560
But generally, you know, we need
things to to care for and if 

321
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,880
that isn't our community, if 
it's not our relationship, if 

322
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,480
it's not our children, if it's 
not, you know, it has to be 

323
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,160
something, you know, if it's not
a hobby that people are, you 

324
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,839
know, get really into, like I'm 
going to collect those stamps or

325
00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:18,000
whatever it is. 
You know, like, I think we've 

326
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,680
always had it. 
It's just maybe it's never been 

327
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,160
dogs to this extent before. 
And you know, you see it with 

328
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,079
with breeders and people as 
well. 

329
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:28,480
You know, like the Breeders are 
obsessed with like the lineage 

330
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,440
and the history and the, and the
health testing and all the good 

331
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,840
stuff that they should be 
concerned with. 

332
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,360
But that really is like, like a 
lifestyle. 

333
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,440
No, Yeah. 
And so I think we've always had 

334
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,240
that. 
It's just that maybe it's never 

335
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,440
been dogs to this extent. 
Yeah, 100% agree with you. 

336
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,000
I think like we do live in a 
somewhat frictionless world 

337
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,360
where, you know, look at run 
clubs, look at ultra marathon 

338
00:17:57,360 --> 00:17:59,720
running, like all these 
challenges where we put our 

339
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,560
bodies and our like, our minds 
through these extreme conditions

340
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,640
for what? 
Just because life is actually in

341
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,720
comparison to maybe baby 
boomers, you know what they grew

342
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,080
up with very different and very 
easy. 

343
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,080
I mean, the world, there's a lot
going on, but really a lot's 

344
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,520
going on in our minds versus 
actual danger right here, right 

345
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:21,440
now. 
Yeah. 

346
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,040
And, and that coupled with RNA 
instinct to really take care of 

347
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,040
something to be invested in like
our family and our community. 

348
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,600
And if less people, I mean, I 
don't have the stats for this 

349
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,920
either, but it feels to me like 
less people are getting married.

350
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,120
It feels like less people are 
having children. 

351
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,440
And So what, we still have that 
instinct. 

352
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,400
So how are we going to satisfy 
that, that genetic instinct that

353
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,800
we have? 
And, and it probably does come 

354
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,560
down to, to our dogs and cats 
and other pets, you know, which 

355
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,360
is not necessarily the best 
thing for our dogs. 

356
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,920
No, I mean, that's, that's a 
heavy burden to carry for them. 

357
00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:00,080
They are our, you know, 
emotional life boys, if you 

358
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,760
could call it that. 
Let's say I recognise some 

359
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,800
challenge that I'm facing. 
So my dog is really anxious and 

360
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:13,200
I can't leave them alone at all.
And this prevents me from having

361
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,080
any semblance of a natural, 
normal social life. 

362
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,600
And, you know, someone that I 
know tells me, oh, have you 

363
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,280
heard of Hannah? 
You know, So I contact you. 

364
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:25,720
And then what happens from 
there? 

365
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,560
Like, what do I? 
Yeah. 

366
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,960
Take me through your process. 
So, so, well, normally and, and 

367
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,320
especially like traditionally 
and what I've always done, that 

368
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,120
would be like a behaviour 
consultation. 

369
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,160
So, and then we would in a 
behaviour consultation, we would

370
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,080
look at your relationship with 
your dog because most dogs that 

371
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:48,920
are anxious, it's a relationship
imbalance in that they don't 

372
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,760
feel safe or they're the ones 
that have to do the protecting 

373
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,240
because maybe we don't have 
enough boundaries at home, for 

374
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,840
example, we can't use our words 
in the way that we might want to

375
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,160
and say, hey, don't worry about 
it. 

376
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,360
I got this. 
So we have to use boundaries 

377
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:06,600
really. 
And that can be things like, you

378
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,400
know, invite only on the 
furniture or sit to go through 

379
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,640
the door or just some sort of 
boundaries in the house, maybe a

380
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,480
room that they're they're not 
allowed to go in. 

381
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,680
And that helps to establish that
like I'm a decision maker, I got

382
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,160
your back on this, like just 
trust me on this. 

383
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:30,160
And what I say goes basically. 
And so that is normally like an 

384
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,440
an overview of like anxious dog 
behaviour with most dogs is 

385
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,680
normally that sort of 
relationship imbalance. 

386
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,560
But if it was to do with canine 
associated coaching that would 

387
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,920
be well, first you would come to
me with like sort of personal 

388
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,200
development angle in that like I
want to explore my relationship 

389
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:54,240
with my dog and get some more 
benefit out of it or you know go

390
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,160
into the whole Wellness thing. 
So if it was in the coaching 

391
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,160
container, that would be more 
about, well, why don't you have 

392
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,760
any boundaries with your dog? 
Like what's uncomfortable about 

393
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,120
that for you? 
You know, and then you'll often 

394
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:08,240
find that like, OK, well, that 
person doesn't have any 

395
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,040
boundaries at work either. 
Or, you know, they're, they're 

396
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,000
uncomfortable with saying no to 
the boss or partner or friend 

397
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,920
or, you know, so then we kind of
get into that and like, OK, 

398
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,800
well, you know, why, why is 
that? 

399
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,520
Do you feel like, and, and often
people will be, you know, like, 

400
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,080
like I said with about guilt, 
you know, they might feel guilty

401
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,080
for saying no or they might have
like burnout and speed spreading

402
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,440
themselves too thin and just be 
saying yes to everything and 

403
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,640
just be like flatlining. 
And then the dog is just 

404
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,800
completely overwhelming them or 
their dog is their safe space 

405
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,640
for when they get home and 
they're just like, OK, just hang

406
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,520
on to you and you make it a 
little better, you know, like no

407
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:52,600
pressure, mate. 
So yeah, so but also I do work a

408
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,760
lot with anticipatory grief as 
well. 

409
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,600
And that will be where I see 
that most often is like when 

410
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,800
we've revolved our our world 
around our dogs and the threat 

411
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,320
of that not being available 
anymore is sold is, is, is 

412
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,000
really difficult to deal with. 
And the threat of having that 

413
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,440
taken away and being left with 
oneself is excruciatingly 

414
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,520
uncomfortable and obviously 
painful. 

415
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,720
And. 
This is escaping, isn't it? 

416
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,600
It's escaping ourselves. 
Yeah, and and I guess it's 

417
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,000
another one of those things that
we all know about with, you 

418
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,280
know, you've got alcoholism or 
gambling or smoking or, you 

419
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,360
know, we've got loads of 
escapism behaviours and it's 

420
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,760
kind of a normal part of being a
human at this point. 

421
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,280
We're like, OK, just kind of get
through it. 

422
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,880
But whether, you know, those 
things are all personal choice. 

423
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,000
They don't really affect, OK, 
they might affect people around 

424
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,400
us, but they don't affect who 
we're trying to care for really 

425
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,920
well. 
And so it's not to say that like

426
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,520
it's it's a real issue across 
the board because I don't think 

427
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,080
that everyone, everybody does 
that. 

428
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,280
But it's more if it's just like 
one person, one dog, that 

429
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,720
dynamic. 
It just goes back to this innate

430
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,280
thing of like being a mother in 
that like, you know, they say 

431
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,520
that you should never have to 
lose a child, right? 

432
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,560
But our dogs most generally live
much less than us, and so when 

433
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,800
we get a dog, we pretty much 
know that at some point that dog

434
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,400
is going to die before us, in 
theory. 

435
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:26,680
So it's like if you're, if we're
pouring heart into it in the 

436
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,080
same way that you know, that if 
we're saying our dogs are our 

437
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,520
children, no, then then how are 
we supposed to deal with losing 

438
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,840
our dogs? 
And, and how, you know, knowing 

439
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,400
that your dog's probably 
definitely going to die before 

440
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,000
you, how are we supposed to deal
with that and the pain that 

441
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,280
comes with that if that, that 
we're living with them. 

442
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,240
Yeah, the is that kind of the 
the types of issues or 

443
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,800
challenges that you or cases 
that you deal with when you work

444
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,120
with the Blue Cross? 
Yeah, yeah. 

445
00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:00,800
And also, well, it can be more 
like, you know, socially complex

446
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,840
cases, but but a lot of the time
is loneliness and the animal 

447
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,120
that they've lost is the only 
thing that is keeping them from 

448
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:10,680
loneliness. 
I know it's really 

449
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,040
heartbreaking. 
That is really heartbreaking. 

450
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,480
What do you think it says about 
us as individuals and as a 

451
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,760
society where, like, our primary
attachment is a dog? 

452
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,200
Not that there's anything wrong 
with that, but like in 

453
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,800
comparison to connecting with 
other human beings. 

454
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,360
Well, I mean, I'm living like in
the middle of nowhere on a 

455
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,920
mountain in basically our 
community. 

456
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,200
And so like 10 years ago, I went
and lived in a community and 

457
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,000
then I went and stayed in the 
ashram in India. 

458
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,520
And like I then started like 
community living. 

459
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,040
And I think like I have a huge, 
well, basically that the 

460
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,360
situation in Portugal is an off 
grid project. 

461
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,480
So there's no way I can deal 
with that by myself. 

462
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,160
Like I have to have the 
community around me. 

463
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,880
And if the car breaks down, like
you have to call your neighbour 

464
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,960
that you can't live nearest 
shops 20 minutes away. 

465
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,280
So like we are all kind of 
connected in this community, 

466
00:24:58,280 --> 00:24:59,760
even though we have different 
houses. 

467
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,360
And I think that's probably the 
the biggest issue is if we don't

468
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:08,960
have other people and events and
closeness and connection with 

469
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,200
people, of course we're going to
look to satisfy that with our 

470
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,400
dogs, you know, and that that 
seems it the whole thing, even 

471
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,400
though, you know, I'm saying 
that it's not necessarily the 

472
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,720
best for our dogs. 
It's very logical. 

473
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,040
Like it makes a lot of sense. 
There's no, there's nothing that

474
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,560
you think, Oh, well, why would 
people do that? 

475
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:29,640
You know, it does make sense and
when you start kind of 

476
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,320
reconnecting with humans and 
this was a big thing for me 

477
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,040
because as you may have noticed 
with your podcast, I don't know 

478
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,040
if this would have become a 
theme, but most people that work

479
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,960
with dogs don't really like 
people very much. 

480
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,520
And that's normally, again, 
going back to like some trauma 

481
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,320
or, you know, some negative 
experiences that they've had or 

482
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,560
they've been let down or nobody 
was there for them or, you know,

483
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,880
lots of issues there that we 
don't need to unpack right now. 

484
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,640
But yeah, I would definitely was
one of those where, like I was 

485
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,280
bullied and, you know, girls are
horrible to me. 

486
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,640
Like all my friends were boys 
for a bit because girls were 

487
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,160
mean. 
So like I had this whole journey

488
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,840
of like basically returning back
to like people and not 

489
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,520
necessarily that the journey is 
finished because probably still 

490
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:19,320
have trust issues, but 
understanding that that most of 

491
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,800
the time people are doing their 
best. 

492
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,080
And, and yeah, for most dog 
trainers is like, obviously you 

493
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,160
have to work with people. 
The people are paying, you know,

494
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,720
like, and that that's a 
challenge for a lot of people. 

495
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,480
So I think, like, humans 
probably have a long way to go 

496
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,760
in trusting each other and 
building community. 

497
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,760
But I think once you start to 
reconnect with humans. 

498
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,120
And like I said, I went to live 
in this community where it was 

499
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,280
like a yoga community and 
everyone was so kind. 

500
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,160
And it's the sort of thing 
where, like, someone does 

501
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,880
something for you or, and you 
just, you could just cry 

502
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,920
because, like, you don't know 
this person and they're being so

503
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,200
kind to you. 
And then you're all living 

504
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,920
together as, like, a big family.
And there's something so 

505
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,000
beautiful about, well, like my 
story of, like journeying, like 

506
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,120
returning to people because I'd 
shunned them for so long, you 

507
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:05,160
know? 
Yeah. 

508
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,800
And and that there's something 
really magical there. 

509
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,720
I'd love to, I'd love for you to
kind of like just rewind a 

510
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,800
little bit. 
Like, yes, this is a dog 

511
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,560
podcast, but it's all about your
journey and you know, what led 

512
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,800
you to this point. 
So if without being, without 

513
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,600
prying too much, please share 
that journey. 

514
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,440
And kind of like when did you 
realise that you were 

515
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,200
disconnected from your own kind 
and kind of what was the 

516
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:37,760
catalyst for you to change that?
So, well, definitely when I was 

517
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,280
a child, because I was happily 
like outside, as long as I was 

518
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,520
in nature, I was fine. 
Like I was with the slow worms, 

519
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,160
up the trees, with the animals. 
I used to have a sheep that I 

520
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,520
would chat to, you know, like 
I'm pretty sure the sheep chat 

521
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,320
back to me as well. 
So, you know, like I was fine 

522
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,520
with nature. 
And I think probably because 

523
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,600
like my dad left when I was 40. 
Like, that must have started the

524
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,960
whole problem I would imagine. 
And then when did I realise that

525
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,960
that was an issue? 
I think that definitely probably

526
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,440
about, I want to say like 12 or 
13 years ago, like I lived in 

527
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,640
London and I'd had terrible like
friends, like horrible friends. 

528
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,600
And I think I eventually sort of
softened, like I think I was 

529
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:28,240
quite hard. 
And maybe so one of these kind 

530
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,160
of socialite people in London 
had like started this community 

531
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,720
project and it was around the 
time of like everyone was doing 

532
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,000
yoga, everyone was vegan. 
I was vegan for like, I don't 

533
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,000
know, six years or something. 
Four years and so I started to 

534
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,640
kind of really like feel stuff 
and and I think the veganism 

535
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,880
thing I learned a lot because 
now I don't like share my views 

536
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,880
with people in quite such an 
adamant way. 

537
00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:00,280
But I think like I forced myself
to feel the pain of the animals 

538
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,360
and that's how I kind of got 
vegan in the fast places. 

539
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,480
This horrendous documentary 
called Earthlings, which you 

540
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,560
can't watch and it is it's 
soldier story. 

541
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,240
But basically I had this thing 
where I wasn't going to turn it 

542
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,680
off and I was going to watch it 
but it was the the worst thing 

543
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,600
I've ever watched in my life. 
Horrendous. 

544
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,960
I wouldn't recommend it at all, 
but I think from then I sort of 

545
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:29,440
felt like I could sit with 
uncomfortable stuff and the most

546
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,560
painful things I could still 
survive them if that makes 

547
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,080
sense. 
Yeah. 

548
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,000
And then through several 
breakups and things, you know, 

549
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,320
every time you like break up 
with somebody, you kind of do 

550
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,840
the soul searching thing. 
So I did a few of those, you 

551
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,640
know. 
Well, not everyone, so well done

552
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:46,600
you. 
Right. 

553
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,200
Well, yeah, I felt like women do
that. 

554
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,360
Oh yeah, it happens, right? 
You break up with somebody, you 

555
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,080
analyse your whole life. 
So like I I did that quite a few

556
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:59,760
times at the end of my 20s and 
then I think after a whole load 

557
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:05,520
of like pain, basically, I sort 
of was able to then like 

558
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,920
withstand that And and I also 
did a lot of like self healing 

559
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,400
work, like stuff with my 
parents. 

560
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,640
I did AI ask a trip, you know, 
like I did, yeah. 

561
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,560
I did a lot of like discovery 
stuff and I was really kind of 

562
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,160
dedicated to like understanding 
myself and my psyche and like my

563
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,320
behaviour and why I thought the 
things that I thought. 

564
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,000
And like, I've never felt that I
fit in until I kind of came to 

565
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,080
this community in Portugal and I
was like, oh, you know, this, 

566
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,520
this makes way more sense. 
Yeah. 

567
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,600
So, so by the sounds of it, on 
your journey, you kind of had to

568
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,480
fall apart to fall back 
together. 

569
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,320
And in that falling together, 
you found connection with other 

570
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,880
I guess like minded people, 
sense of community, a sense of 

571
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,480
belonging and just a just a more
positive space. 

572
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,680
So I guess making those positive
choices for your life trajectory

573
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,680
has LED you to more positive 
things. 

574
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,480
So I guess that's created that 
knock on effect if we tie that 

575
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,920
back to the canine facilitated 
coaching is that does that kind 

576
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,680
of philosophy or approach inform
the approach that you take with 

577
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,760
your clients as well? 
Yeah, I would say that it 

578
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,080
probably is in every area of my 
or every aspect of my life. 

579
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,560
But yeah, definitely obviously 
the focus of the the container, 

580
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,120
the coaching container is the 
other person that their 

581
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,480
interpretation of their own 
lifestyle and environment and, 

582
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,160
you know, interactions with 
people. 

583
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,560
But yeah, I guess like we have a
lot that we can complain about. 

584
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,840
But really, you know, like say, 
if we, I guess the way that I 

585
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,760
kind of integrated to humans was
by being able to like basically 

586
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,600
living off the fact that I can 
always choose, you know, like if

587
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,040
people are going to treat me 
badly, I don't have to be have 

588
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,040
them in my life. 
And if people are going to treat

589
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,720
me well, then I want to spend 
more time with them. 

590
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,480
I want to invest more into them.
And so like, I guess when you're

591
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:00,920
a child, you don't have that 
option. 

592
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,840
And so that's maybe how it 
starts, you know, a negative 

593
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,840
trajectory. 
But then at some point when you 

594
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,600
grow up and you know, once your 
brain's fully developed after 25

595
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,640
and all of that sort of stuff 
and you realise, oh, wait, hang 

596
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,200
on a minute, I can actually 
choose now whether I want to put

597
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,680
up with this or not. 
And then having that kind of 

598
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,480
power return to you, that was 
maybe you didn't have access to 

599
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,480
when you were a child, ills then
that you can almost you can 

600
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,560
trust yourself. 
And so therefore you can trust 

601
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,000
the people around you because 
you can trust yourself to make 

602
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,080
the right decision if that 
person treats you badly. 

603
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,040
That makes sense. 
Yeah, yeah, it does. 

604
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,040
I think it depends on what kind 
of upbringing you had and what 

605
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,760
your experience was. 
I guess there's a core wound 

606
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,720
there, isn't it? 
If it was enough of a big deal, 

607
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,560
if you felt you didn't have a 
voice, for example. 

608
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,880
And ironically, dogs don't, so 
they there might be a bit of a 

609
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,120
connection there as well. 
Slightly abstract, but yeah. 

610
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,680
That's true, actually, yeah, 
because I didn't feel like I had

611
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,040
a voice, so. 
But yeah. 

612
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,720
And I think a lot of people 
struggle with that. 

613
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,240
From what I can tell with the 
women's circles, they're always 

614
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,160
talking about it. 
Yeah, I think it's really 

615
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:09,480
interesting actually. 
How so we would get dogs to kind

616
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,360
of fill a void in our lives, but
at the same time the dogs that 

617
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:19,680
enter our lives become mirrors 
and reflect back to us kind of 

618
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,960
what our challenges are and 
where we still have some way to 

619
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,240
go, what we need to be working 
on. 

620
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,680
I guess that really depends on 
whether or not we've got the 

621
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,320
self-awareness or not. 
Don't want to make this agenda 

622
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,480
thing, but I know that woman 
naval gaze a lot more than men 

623
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,440
do. 
And so perhaps in that kind of 

624
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,600
process, are we creating 
problems where there aren't any 

625
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,640
or are we just way more tuned in
to seeing them? 

626
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,280
That's really interesting 
actually. 

627
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,040
Yeah, that's because I 
definitely felt like there is a 

628
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,800
like a deeper sensitivity there.
But that could also be like our 

629
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:59,320
innate nurturing instinct. 
I have this like little image of

630
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,360
like our dogs over, I don't 
know, generations or, you know, 

631
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,520
millennia just waiting for us to
kind of like pay attention to 

632
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,960
them and that they you're kind 
of trying to tell us, you know, 

633
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,679
that like, did you know that you
do this? 

634
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,199
I can help you with that, you 
know, you know, like, so I don't

635
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,360
necessarily like, are we 
creating problems? 

636
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,639
Probably not. 
I felt like we just are more 

637
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:22,760
sensitive to the issues that are
in our lives now. 

638
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,440
And that could be because, you 
know, we have an incredible 

639
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,239
relationships with our dogs. 
It could be that we're so bonded

640
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,280
to our dogs and they are so 
close to us that we are now 

641
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,040
seeing in them what we need to 
heal in ourselves. 

642
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,159
So I don't feel like we're 
necessarily making up problems 

643
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:40,280
that there aren't any, because 
there are plenty of problems. 

644
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,320
Yes. 
No, that's true. 

645
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,199
It's just when you look at the 
scope of types of problems that 

646
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,600
you could have, you know, yeah, 
it depends on how much it 

647
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,560
affects your life. 
Like if we go back to the 

648
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,600
anxiety that would pass on to 
the dog, obviously not being 

649
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,719
able to leave the dog on their 
own is going to create a 

650
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,880
problem, which then creates 
isolation, which then kind of, 

651
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,360
you know, snowballs and becomes 
bigger than it needs to be. 

652
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,600
But people wouldn't know that if
they didn't have that level of 

653
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,360
awareness. 
And if they didn't like have 

654
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,200
access to people like you, for 
example, they they might just 

655
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,800
think, oh, the problem is the 
dog. 

656
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,600
Yeah, yeah. 
And like I don't necessarily 

657
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,800
because there is a bit of a 
culture now of like, like 

658
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,120
blaming our dogs problems on us.
And I don't necessarily 

659
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,600
subscribe to that either 
because, you know, there's I've 

660
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,920
seen plenty of situations where 
the humans have been on point 

661
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,760
and the dogs have been terrible.
You know, it's not always, you 

662
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,960
know, train the owner and it all
comes from the owner. 

663
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,480
So, you know, I don't want to, 
like, blame us for the problems,

664
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,680
but also like our dogs anxiety, 
for example, could be reflected 

665
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,240
from us. 
And so, you know, a lot of 

666
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:50,040
people won't make the decision 
to do something for themselves. 

667
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,200
They'll make a decision to do 
something for their dogs. 

668
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,200
So they don't necessarily 
prioritise themselves. 

669
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,400
For example, like lots of people
that I work with will will like 

670
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,840
give their dog the highest care,
the best food, the most amount 

671
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,160
of time and priority. 
But then when it comes to 

672
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,040
themselves, they might just have
a standard sandwich or standing 

673
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,360
up or something, you know, like 
that kind of parallel where like

674
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,920
their dog is treated like 
royalty and then they're like 

675
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,800
the slave that is running around
cleaning bed pans, you know, 

676
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,800
like. 
And so sometimes I think that 

677
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,040
like our dogs want us to kind of
learn these things about 

678
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,680
ourselves. 
It's almost like a rebalancing, 

679
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,280
like a coming home to ourselves.
And, and it can be uncomfortable

680
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,720
because we're facing stuff that 
maybe we've escaped from for the

681
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:42,800
last 30 years or whatever, you 
know, So, but ultimately it's 

682
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,640
always going to be there and 
niggling, I feel anyway that 

683
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,000
unless you, you know, it's 
always going to be driving 

684
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,680
situations and things in our 
lives without us really knowing.

685
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,600
And then our dogs are like, Hey,
I want to help. 

686
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,080
I want to help. 
And then we're just like, I just

687
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,320
want to feed you nice food. 
And they're like, I want to help

688
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,680
you. 
And like, I'd have fish, you 

689
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,840
know? 
But but I guess so how? 

690
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,160
How do people realise there's a 
problem? 

691
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,400
I mean, I don't necessarily know
if I'd even class it as a 

692
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,200
problem. 
It's like you either you either 

693
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,040
kind of want to to understand 
yourself and your dog and your 

694
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,960
relationships in like a deeper 
level or you don't, you're not 

695
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,800
bothered. 
You know, it's, it's not 

696
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,720
necessarily, you know when, when
it becomes a problem for the 

697
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:26,560
dog, there'll be behaviour 
problems and then they'll know. 

698
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:28,000
Right. 
OK. 

699
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,760
So I think what I've been doing 
is I've been looking at it 

700
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,480
through the lens of I have a 
problem. 

701
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,760
I need a solution. 
Let me go speak to Hannah. 

702
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,400
And so you're saying this is 
more a service for people who 

703
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,600
are proactively looking just to 
deepen their bond, to deepen 

704
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,080
their understanding? 
It's not that they're solving a 

705
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,200
problem. 
It's just that they are, yeah, I

706
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,840
guess a bit more reflective and 
wanting to, yeah, have a bit 

707
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,080
more depth. 
Yeah, that's why I'm kind of 

708
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,480
promoting this in the Wellness 
space at the moment is because I

709
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,120
know that these people are 
already trying everything that 

710
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,400
they possibly can, Their own 
family constellations and trips 

711
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,240
here and retreats there and, you
know, fasting and yoga and this.

712
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:10,560
They're doing so much to try and
get to like the root of like 

713
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,320
their pain essentially. 
Or you know some other you know 

714
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,520
the root of their like 
uncomfortable feelings or is not

715
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,360
necessarily pain, but it can be 
the root of whatever it is 

716
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:21,400
they're trying to get to the 
root of. 

717
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,840
Right, so this is self 
exploration via the dog. 

718
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,880
Yeah. 
And the dog is ultimately the 

719
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,560
mirror reflecting back. 
OK, might need some work area. 

720
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,400
Yeah, and it opens up 
conversations that you wouldn't 

721
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,440
necessarily otherwise have 
because especially from the 

722
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,360
perspective that I have, like 
because I, I've been in dog 

723
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,320
behaviour for 15 years, like if 
somebody tells me something, oh,

724
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,400
my dog's doing this, that and 
the other or like, like with the

725
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,280
guilt thing. 
Oh, I'm so awful. 

726
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,600
Like my, my dog didn't get like,
had her dinner half an hour late

727
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:51,440
today. 
I don't know what I was 

728
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,840
thinking, you know, like, I know
that that's not an issue for the

729
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,320
dog. 
I know that the unless you're 

730
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,600
doing puppy training, like 
that's not an issue for the dog.

731
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,480
And so the fact that somebody 
will have said that to me, I 

732
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,520
know is nothing to do with the 
dog and everything to do with 

733
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,160
them. 
So it helps to open up these 

734
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,800
conversations that that means 
that we can explore deeper 

735
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,040
where, you know, people might be
having, you know, talking 

736
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,040
therapy or they might, you know,
and and this isn't therapy, by 

737
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,160
the way, this is coaching. 
Just need to put that in there. 

738
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:22,880
But there are some parallels in 
that it opens up deeper 

739
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,280
conversations which can lead to 
insights. 

740
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,280
You know, these light bulb 
moments where you're like, Oh my

741
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,240
God, yes, I didn't realise that 
I was doing that this whole time

742
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:32,960
or, or whatever it is. 
And so it's kind of like a 

743
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,280
healing modality in that it 
opens more doors and more light 

744
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,280
bulb moments and more insights 
when you're already on this 

745
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,560
journey of trying to get to the 
bottom of like, what the hell 

746
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,720
life is anyway. 
Is that a one to one thing or a 

747
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:47,480
group thing? 
Because I could understand in a 

748
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,280
group setting, again, that 
facilitates connection with 

749
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,760
other people because you're able
to connect via what is revealed 

750
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,160
through your dog and therefore 
it kind of explore that. 

751
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,160
Yeah, I mean, well, at the 
moment, because I've just 

752
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,320
started it this year at the 
start of the year. 

753
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:02,880
So at the moment it's 1:00 to 
1:00. 

754
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,680
But I mean, it would be so 
fascinating as a group dynamic 

755
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,600
because it's, it's really 
fascinating to see how others 

756
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,400
speak as well, you know, about 
their dog. 

757
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,920
And, and, and also, I think a 
lot of people feel alone with, 

758
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,800
with these things that that come
off and they think, Oh, well, 

759
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,760
it's just me and my crazy clerks
or whatever. 

760
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,040
But, but so many people are the 
same, you know, and so many 

761
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,000
people are like, especially, you
know, like my dog is my baby 

762
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,080
thing or like, why am I so 
obsessed with my dog? 

763
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,800
You know, like lots of people 
have this now. 

764
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,760
And it's not necessarily, like I
say, it's not necessarily a 

765
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:32,920
problem. 
It's not necessarily that 

766
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,720
there's something wrong. 
But it's like, if you want to 

767
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,120
understand that in a deeper way,
if you want to get to the bottom

768
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,400
of that, if you want. 
And it does then as a knock on 

769
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,400
effect, have a have a positive 
impact on your relationship with

770
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,840
your dog because then your dog's
like, oh, finally, I've been 

771
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,240
trying to tell you this for 
ages, you know? 

772
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,240
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
So that is, I mean, yeah, it's 

773
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:57,240
very niche, isn't? 
It, which is the problem with 

774
00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:00,320
it, you know, it's like, it's 
very difficult to kind of get it

775
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,320
out there because it's a whole 
niche thing where you're just 

776
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,200
like, I'm sorry, what now? 
Well, it took me a while to wrap

777
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,280
my head around it because I was 
thinking, OK, maybe, you know, 

778
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,840
ultimately it's about the 
individual. 

779
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,880
It's not about the dog. 
And I think in my head, I was 

780
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,720
thinking it's about the dog, but
no, it's about the individual 

781
00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:22,080
and their journey and just kind 
of like, yeah, going on that 

782
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,080
journey and what the dog reveals
about them or mirrors back to 

783
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,640
them. 
You know, ultimately working on 

784
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,480
those things on an individual 
level by default improves the 

785
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,000
relationship with the dog, but 
not just with their dog, also I 

786
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,480
guess the world with their, you 
know, relationships, which is 

787
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,920
your expertise. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

788
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,800
Yeah. 
And it does sometimes crossover,

789
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,360
like it will go into dog 
behaviour as well. 

790
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,000
And I found that I can actually 
switch hats in a session, you 

791
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,160
know, it's like, so it's like, 
OK, well, my, this is really 

792
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,400
upsetting me that my dog does 
that. 

793
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,200
OK, well, we can get to the 
bottom of that as well. 

794
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,920
So you know that that's, and 
when I started this, I didn't 

795
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,680
know if I was going to be able 
to like switch hats from like, 

796
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,360
you know, coach to dog 
behaviourist. 

797
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,880
But actually it is quite smooth 
and it does work quite well. 

798
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,760
So we can cover the issues with 
the dog as well because often, 

799
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,920
well, sometimes there'll be no 
issues, but sometimes there 

800
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,680
will. 
And that will prompt somebody to

801
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,400
like get in touch with me 
because they're like, OK, well, 

802
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,560
I've noticed my dog does this. 
It's not a major problem, but 

803
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,240
what's going on? 
Yeah, at least your lines of 

804
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:22,280
inquiry considers the human 
within that. 

805
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,640
So it's not just the problem 
with the dog. 

806
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,640
It's really interesting how your
unique set of skills has brought

807
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,280
you to this point. 
You know when you look back with

808
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,360
hindsight, like, do you feel you
are exactly where you need to be

809
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,080
right now? 
Yeah, yeah, always. 

810
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,160
Yeah. 
Yeah, very interesting because 

811
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,080
there was a choice there, you 
know, you chose to explore this,

812
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:47,360
this avenue a bit further. 
And I guess how did you, I'm 

813
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,680
curious about how you've 
validated it like the demand I 

814
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,760
guess. 
Well, no, not necessarily the 

815
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,440
demand because I'm still kind of
waiting to see if it takes off. 

816
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,720
Like I don't know if people are 
interested in this or not or if 

817
00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:02,600
it's just my weird like I'm 
super interested in. 

818
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,280
I've done like I've done, I've 
had a few clients. 

819
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:07,680
I've got another one starting 
tomorrow. 

820
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,080
So we will see like if it 
becomes a thing, but I feel 

821
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,800
like, and sometimes I am too 
early with stuff like it might 

822
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,200
be too early for this and maybe 
it's going to be like another 10

823
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,280
years before this is relevant. 
Hopefully not. 

824
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,280
But at the moment, well, 
firstly, I actually, well I did 

825
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,160
choose it, but I didn't feel 
like I wanted to choose it. 

826
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,680
I put this off for like 5 years 
because I didn't want to. 

827
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,880
I was like what? 
Get out of my brain, you know, 

828
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,880
like I felt like it was 
something that I just kept 

829
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,520
seeing, kept repeating and I was
like, no, no, if I ignore it, 

830
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,520
I'll go away. 
And it just never did. 

831
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,840
So like, I felt like, OK, I, I 
did logically choose, but I felt

832
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,160
like I had less of a choice than
I would have liked. 

833
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,400
And then secondly, like I did a 
case study programme first, just

834
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,360
to see if like this even worked 
at all. 

835
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,120
So I did a case study programme,
which was like a free exchange 

836
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,320
and for people to be able to 
like give me their feedback and 

837
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:01,960
like, OK, what worked, what 
didn't work? 

838
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,280
In fact, I might, I might hold 
like one or two spaces for that 

839
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,880
going forward because I still 
feel like, you know, I really 

840
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,920
want to kind of in depth 
feedback on, you know, like 

841
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,040
this, this service. 
So yeah, I did a case study 

842
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,520
programme and that was really 
just to to gauge interest and, 

843
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:21,920
and people were interested in 
it. 

844
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,880
And then they kind of helped me 
develop like, OK, well, actually

845
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,960
that didn't work very well. 
Like I found that homework does 

846
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,800
not work, you know, like go away
and do this and then I'll see 

847
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:32,880
you next time. 
OK. 

848
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,160
No, that so. 
And I didn't know that until I 

849
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:37,880
did this case study programme. 
I was like, yeah. 

850
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,200
And there's loads of stuff that 
we can do. 

851
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,160
No. 
So you know, it's taken a bit of

852
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:48,840
honing and development and yeah,
I mean, it's just waiting to see

853
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,680
if it works. 
And also it's a global thing. 

854
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,680
So, you know, I felt like 
there's definitely like a 

855
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,320
movement and maybe like, well, I
actually don't know this. 

856
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,360
I feel like there's a movement 
in like LA or New York like over

857
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,640
that way somewhere where they 
are like super kind of in tune 

858
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,360
with their dogs and really like 
into their dogs. 

859
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,040
And there's a lot of you know, 
like city dwelling people. 

860
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:10,960
Because I feel like we do get 
disconnected unless you're 

861
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,080
making an effort to go to like, 
I don't know, regular drum 

862
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,160
circles or gardening clubs or, 
you know. 

863
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,240
That's true because communities 
are online now and and we were 

864
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,880
all just like we live in, you 
know, some of us in cities, some

865
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,040
in the countryside, wherever on 
the outskirts skirts villages. 

866
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,200
But we're all just kind of like 
ships in the night, really. 

867
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,840
Like, I mean, having a dog makes
it a little bit easier because 

868
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,480
by default, you know, that 
person is seeking connection. 

869
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,040
It's almost like a talk to me, 
you know, like all you're 

870
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,880
welcome or come pet my dog. 
Not I'm not saying go pet 

871
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,120
everyone's dog, but you know 
what I mean? 

872
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,560
Like it's just, yeah, it's an 
excuse to engage with people and

873
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,400
not feel like a weirdo. 
Well, yeah, although there's 

874
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,080
another side to that coin in 
that, you know, you've got the 

875
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,200
problem with dogs running over 
and saying it's OK, he's 

876
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,840
friendly. 
And then you're just like, get 

877
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:01,440
off me, you know, like, please 
call your dog. 

878
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:04,200
And so it actually has the 
potential to create rifts in the

879
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,880
park where some people are 
responsible and some people are 

880
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,960
less responsible, and then the 
responsible people have to deal 

881
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:11,520
with the less responsible 
people's dogs. 

882
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,520
So, you know, it definitely can 
create the opposite problem in 

883
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,760
that you start to just think, 
you know what, I can't even be 

884
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,520
bothered to go to the park today
because kind of want to deal 

885
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,640
with the idiots though. 
Yeah, it I mean, it depends on 

886
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,120
what type of dog you have as 
well. 

887
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:30,040
Kind of what what the I, I was 
really excited to get a dog 

888
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,240
because I thought, oh, I can't 
wait to do my have my fostering,

889
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:36,600
start my fostering journey and 
like just talk to people and 

890
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,800
it's, you know, again, it's 
about the dog, but byproducts of

891
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,800
having the dog is being able to 
connect with other dog people. 

892
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,720
But The thing is, yeah, exactly 
as you say. 

893
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,560
Now, if I go to a park or in the
woods or anything, I do speak to

894
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,760
people. 
But I tend to speak to people 

895
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,800
when they have their dogs on a 
lead And we're, you know, we're 

896
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,520
like comfortably apart from each
other. 

897
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,600
Because I don't know how do now 
my foster dog is going to react 

898
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,040
to their dog and I don't know 
how their dog is going to react 

899
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,880
to my dog. 
So yeah, that kind of 

900
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,600
counteracted the vision that I 
had in my head for what it would

901
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,000
look like. 
But I've adjusted, you know, 

902
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,320
it's not ideal. 
I'd love to like, you know, 

903
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,440
let's all play together and 
let's all become friends. 

904
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,600
That's the ideal scenario. 
But unfortunately, I agree with 

905
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,440
you. 
There are responsible and 

906
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,600
slightly less responsible dog 
owners out there. 

907
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,200
So it's a bit of a risk. 
There's always a bit of a risk, 

908
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,560
isn't it? 
So it ends up being a little bit

909
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,640
not lonely, but it can be quite 
isolating when the whole point 

910
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,080
was to not be more isolated. 
Yeah, and that's kind of brings 

911
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,160
us loops us back to what I was 
saying. 

912
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,320
Like when I was a kid, you used 
to just walk past and say hello,

913
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,640
that there wasn't really a 
culture of that because that 

914
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,200
would be satisfied in other 
areas. 

915
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,760
And like how I was saying in 
London that they don't have that

916
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,120
or, or some people in London 
don't necessarily have a strong 

917
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,040
family or or friendship groups. 
And so maybe the, the people in 

918
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,800
the park and their dogs are 
their kind of social group, 

919
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,360
which then creates problems for 
the dogs. 

920
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,360
So, you know, it's, it's that 
dogs aren't quite the right 

921
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,120
thing for us to like fold in 
socially, you know, because 

922
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,640
ideally you're, you're teaching 
your dog in the park to ignore 

923
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:16,960
all other people and all other 
dogs all. 

924
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,320
Right, so from a dog trainer 
behaviourist perspective that is

925
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,880
that what you recommend? 
Yeah, normally in the park 

926
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,280
you're teaching dogs to ignore 
other people and dogs in the 

927
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,400
park. 
And that's for lots of different

928
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,240
reasons, mainly to do with 
socialisation. 

929
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:34,040
So that, and, and I mean, this 
is a whole rabbit hole by 

930
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,000
itself, but you know, there's a 
lot of like legal, like your 

931
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,240
dog's never going to get in 
trouble legally if it doesn't 

932
00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:41,600
run over to, to other people 
because the only people that are

933
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,760
going to report your dog are the
other people in the park. 

934
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,680
And the more that your dog goes 
to the park and plays with other

935
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,800
dogs, the less important it is 
for your dog to stay with you 

936
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,240
and respond to you when you need
your dog to come back. 

937
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,320
So it's almost like the the 
other dogs in the park are 

938
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,440
competing factors to your 
responsive recall to your dog. 

939
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,280
Then also, once your dogs 
already playing, it's hard for 

940
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,840
them to leave the play. 
And if they want to leave the 

941
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,720
play, they have to do like an 
aggressive display to stop the 

942
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:11,920
play from happening, which is 
then giving your dog a chance to

943
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,000
practise aggression, which is 
something that we don't tolerate

944
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,520
in society. 
So we teach or like what I 

945
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,400
recommend and what I teach is 
that we prevent our dogs from 

946
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,760
being in any situation where 
they need to use aggression. 

947
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,960
So then we would protect them 
from the from the other dogs. 

948
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,720
If they feeling that they want 
to be aggressive to another dog,

949
00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:31,280
we protect them from that other 
dog so they don't need to use 

950
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,960
their teeth. 
And then that helps the other 

951
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:37,080
dog to trust you more. 
And so it improves your 

952
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,200
relationship with your dog. 
By protecting your dog, your dog

953
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,120
learns, oh, I don't have to use 
my teeth. 

954
00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:44,240
You've got this covered. 
I'll just hang back and hide 

955
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:45,440
behind you when you deal with 
it. 

956
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,440
That's a better scenario, a 
safer scenario for everybody. 

957
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,120
How do dogs socialise then? 
Is that not a need? 

958
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,840
So this is this is the the 
problem with the word 

959
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,600
socialisation is that it 
actually means raising the being

960
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,360
according to its social status, 
not how we use it. 

961
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,640
Go and play with your mates, you
know. 

962
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:07,840
Yeah. 
And so it has, it has a 

963
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:09,800
secondary meaning. 
It's just that that secondary 

964
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,840
meaning is the one that's meant 
when it comes to puppy 

965
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,440
socialisation. 
So correct puppy socialisation 

966
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,200
is teaching your puppy to ignore
other dogs or to be around role 

967
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,920
model dogs that also ignore 
other dogs. 

968
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,000
So there's that's a whole issue 
that is across the board. 

969
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,400
Mainly I think it came from the 
States where they did puppy 

970
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,280
socialisation parties back in 
the day, which then came over to

971
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:32,320
the UK, this puppy socialisation
party, which essentially would 

972
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,720
be raising feral dogs. 
If your dog is playing with 

973
00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:38,040
other dogs every day, then it's 
airing more on the side of feral

974
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,360
dog behaviour than it is of 
companion dog behaviour. 

975
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,480
OK, but that's from a companion 
dog perspective, as in light 

976
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:48,320
from an owner, from a guardian's
perspective, that's that 

977
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:52,240
benefits the human. 
But what do dogs need? 

978
00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:54,560
Do they not need that? 
Yeah, so they need people. 

979
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:59,480
So, so when we get a puppy, we 
put their their primary social 

980
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,000
group when we get a puppy as 
other dogs. 

981
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,720
And so when we take a companion 
puppy, and I'm thinking like 

982
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:06,560
Lassie in my head when I say 
this, when we take a companion 

983
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,640
puppy home, we raise that puppy 
in a world full of people. 

984
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,560
And so that puppy then becomes 
the humans become that puppy's 

985
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,840
primary social group. 
You can do it like I work with 

986
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,800
livestock guardian dogs as well.
And you take the puppy and you 

987
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:20,920
put it in with sheep and then 
the sheep become that dog's 

988
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,080
primary social group. 
There's been lots of studies, I 

989
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:27,680
think there was one with budgies
and, and humans and, and 

990
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,760
switching social groups. 
So, so you can, so to have a, a 

991
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:33,840
brilliant companioned organ 
again, I'm thinking Lassie 

992
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,520
level, you want your dog to be 
able to be fluent in your facial

993
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,400
expressions, your body language,
like your human behaviour. 

994
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:45,800
And you want the, the your dog 
is already fluent in dog 

995
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,640
language by 6 to 8 weeks old. 
So it doesn't need that 

996
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,000
necessarily anymore. 
He needs now to learn about the 

997
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,000
human language, the human 
behaviour. 

998
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,760
So to do that, he has to be 
around people. 

999
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,880
So what I always say is it's 
easy to explain it if it's like 

1000
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,520
language. 
So if I go to Portugal and I 

1001
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,680
hang around with English people,
then I, we will learn very 

1002
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,400
little Portuguese, which may 
have actually happened and it 

1003
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,680
would be hello, goodbye. 
Can I have the bill, please? 

1004
00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:15,600
Let's say right, we go on 
holiday, that's what we learn. 

1005
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,320
If I come run with English 
people, that's what I'm 

1006
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,800
learning. 
Whereas if I go to Portugal and 

1007
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,760
I go to the middle of nowhere, 
there's no English people and 

1008
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,040
there's only Portuguese people. 
I'm going to become fluent 

1009
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,680
hopefully in Portuguese between 
like from 6 to 12 months, it'd 

1010
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,640
probably take. 
So when you take a puppy from a 

1011
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:36,680
litter of puppies and you place 
that puppy in a human household,

1012
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,240
that puppy will become fluent in
human language within 6 to 12 

1013
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:41,840
months. 
Wow, OK. 

1014
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,120
Have another dog in that 
household and you put your puppy

1015
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,120
in with that other dog. 
That other dog will prevent the 

1016
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,040
second dog from becoming fully 
fluent in human language. 

1017
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:57,360
So he will essentially the 
second puppy, or it could be if 

1018
00:52:57,720 --> 00:53:00,520
that puppy is spending a lot of 
time, let's say like daycare or 

1019
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,320
with other dogs every day, then 
that puppy will learn the 

1020
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,720
equivalent of hello, goodbye. 
Can I get the bill, please? 

1021
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,800
You know, it learns like a 
stunted version of human 

1022
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:10,320
language. 
And you always see it like 

1023
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,040
people always get a first dog 
and they're like, this is 

1024
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,760
amazing. 
I love my dog so much. 

1025
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,200
The only thing that is better 
than this is going to be two of 

1026
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,600
him. 
But the second dog never, never 

1027
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,400
turns out the way that the first
dog did Because the second dog 

1028
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,360
essentially, you could see it as
like the second dog is the first

1029
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,520
dog's pet because they're the 
second dog normally is like 

1030
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,320
obsessed with the first dog 
because that's his social group 

1031
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,280
that he knows. 
Whereas the the first dog didn't

1032
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,280
have another dog. 
So he's fully flown in human 

1033
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,520
language because that's his 
social group, that he knows, the

1034
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,000
humans. 
OK, I understand. 

1035
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,600
Just out of curiosity, is this 
because I'm not a behaviourist? 

1036
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,320
I'm not a dog trainer? 
Is this common knowledge across 

1037
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,000
all dog behaviourists and dog 
trainers? 

1038
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,720
Is this like something you learn
at behaviour school? 

1039
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,440
I hope so. 
I mean, I trained with John 

1040
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:59,400
Ruddison, who is he's died now. 
And so anyone that's trained 

1041
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,360
with him will will have that 
perspective. 

1042
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,040
I feel like nobody ever used to 
know this, right? 

1043
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,360
Like everybody always used to 
think that like puppies playing 

1044
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,000
with other puppies was like the 
be all and end all. 

1045
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:11,600
But I feel like now I've started
seeing Instagram reels where 

1046
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,800
it's teaching people or like 
they're talking about dogs 

1047
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,120
ignoring other dogs. 
And I feel like that's relative.

1048
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,720
It feels relatively new. 
But whether that's just on my 

1049
00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:22,920
Instagram I don't know, but. 
Isn't that just a safety thing? 

1050
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:27,640
I'm thinking more in terms of, 
you know, that is a dog living 

1051
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,680
in a human centric world, but if
it was a dog centric 

1052
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,360
environment, like what's best 
for the dog, not in the human, 

1053
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,520
you know what I mean? 
Like there's a slight adjustment

1054
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,840
you've got to make. 
It's not always there's what's 

1055
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,840
good for the dog as a separate 
entity, and there's what's good 

1056
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,120
for a dog in a human world. 
Yeah, yeah, they're two very 

1057
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,240
different things, unfortunately.
Yeah, because obviously what's 

1058
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,520
like you can look at dogs in, 
you know, primitive 

1059
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,320
environments, all Old Street 
dogs, you know, like in India or

1060
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,440
you know, anywhere where they 
have St dog populations. 

1061
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:57,600
In fact, there's, I'm in 
Portugal. 

1062
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,000
It's really lovely to see 
actually, because it's, it's 

1063
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,680
amazing to see how dogs behave 
when there's no fences and when 

1064
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:04,200
they go and actually make their 
own choices. 

1065
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,200
In fact, I did share something 
on my Instagram yesterday, I 

1066
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,640
think you saw it about that man 
with his he was in India and a 

1067
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,280
dog had followed him on his when
he was doing a bike ride. 

1068
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:17,400
Yeah. 
A man with a brain tumour. 

1069
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:19,640
Yeah. 
And he was running across India 

1070
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,480
and he had this dog follow him. 
And I was just like, I love that

1071
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:27,440
that dog got to decide to go 
with him because our dogs in in 

1072
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,600
the UK and in human society 
don't normally get to make 

1073
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:32,720
decisions like that. 
And I feel like there's, there's

1074
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:35,720
something really special about 
like a dog being able to make 

1075
00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:38,760
their own decisions, which we 
don't really have in our 

1076
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:40,920
society. 
Like, I have a deal with my dogs

1077
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,240
where, you know, I've got quite 
a few boundaries in the house, 

1078
00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:45,480
but when they go out on a walk, 
they can do whatever they want 

1079
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:46,720
as long as they come back when I
call them. 

1080
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:52,560
Like that's all kind of set up. 
And but but yeah, like, what's 

1081
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,600
what's good for dogs is probably
not human society. 

1082
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:57,360
You know, it's very overwhelming
for them. 

1083
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,120
There's a lot of things that 
they don't understand. 

1084
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,960
You know, it's easy for us when 
we say, OK, well, I understand 

1085
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,080
what the postman is. 
I understand what the bus is. 

1086
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,400
I know why there's a wheelie 
trolley going down the street. 

1087
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,200
You know, like, it all makes 
sense to us. 

1088
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:09,920
And our dogs don't really 
understand any of it. 

1089
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,560
And so that's why they're so 
dependent on our relationship 

1090
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,960
with us and why we have to be 
the ones that say, hey, I've got

1091
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:16,560
your back. 
Don't worry about this, which 

1092
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,520
normally involves having a 
shorter lead and keeping your 

1093
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,360
dog closer to you or behind you,
which a lot of people don't do, 

1094
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,280
especially with the dawn of the 
stupid extendable leads, which 

1095
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,880
has got So that's another rabbit
hole. 

1096
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:33,200
Um, so you know, the, they're 
dependent on us to interpret the

1097
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,280
environment and keep them safe, 
whereas if we don't to keep 

1098
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,200
them, if we don't protect them 
in our environment, then they 

1099
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,080
learn to protect themselves in 
our environment. 

1100
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,960
And that's when you get problems
because they shouldn't have to 

1101
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:45,280
protect themselves in our 
environment. 

1102
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,040
That's where the aggression 
stems from and all sorts of 

1103
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,160
problems. 
Wow, that is a whole other can 

1104
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,960
of worms, that one. 
Because ultimately, yeah, that's

1105
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:59,640
what I mean. 
They are captives and they have 

1106
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:03,320
no autonomy really. 
You know, we decide everything 

1107
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,400
for them, who they socialise 
with, when they eat, when they 

1108
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,040
drink, when they go to the loo, 
you know. 

1109
00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:13,800
Yeah, I, I haven't thought about
it in this way with regards to 

1110
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,880
like, you know, stepping in and 
showing them, OK, you don't need

1111
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,480
to worry type of thing. 
Where like, where can I learn 

1112
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,040
more about that? 
Is that, and pardon my 

1113
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,080
ignorance, but is that, That's 
not dominance theory, is it? 

1114
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,920
No, no. 
And I, I don't really agree with

1115
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,880
dominance theory and it it, but 
there is some kind of overlaps, 

1116
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,440
you know, like with like what I 
call decision making. 

1117
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,160
So and the way I think of it is 
when you go on holiday with your

1118
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:41,560
friends, there's always like 
that one friend that nails it 

1119
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:42,960
every time. 
She knows the best cocktail 

1120
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:44,600
bars, you know, the best 
restaurants. 

1121
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:46,320
I'm going to go what she says. 
Yeah. 

1122
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:48,000
And so, like, I always think of 
it like that. 

1123
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,080
Like, you know, someone's got to
make the decisions, and 

1124
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,000
someone's going to be better at 
making the decisions than 

1125
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:53,720
others. 
And it's between me and my dog. 

1126
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,520
I'm going to be better at making
the decisions because I 

1127
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:57,800
understand the environment. 
That would be like, if you were 

1128
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:00,320
going away with your friends and
let's say you were going to 

1129
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,880
Porto and one of your friends 
lived in Porto for five years. 

1130
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,600
She's going to know a lot more 
than your other friends who've 

1131
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:07,880
never been here before. 
So when we apply that to our 

1132
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,000
dog, like we know our 
environment inside out, like we 

1133
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,360
understand people's behaviour, 
we understand why somebody is 

1134
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:17,240
doing that. 
And when we don't understand 

1135
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:18,760
human behaviour and we get 
terrified. 

1136
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:23,080
So for our dogs, it's easier for
us to say, I understand 

1137
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,200
everything that's going on, stay
back and I'll take care of it. 

1138
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,640
Like, we'll just do this 
together and we can be a team. 

1139
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:31,280
But how do we know? 
How do we know that they are OK 

1140
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:36,320
with really relinquishing 
control of the like autonomy? 

1141
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:38,880
How do we know? 
Do they just submit to us? 

1142
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,080
Do we just break them in the 
process of taken away their 

1143
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:44,800
choices? 
No, I don't think it's 

1144
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,760
necessarily taken away their 
choices because they do have to 

1145
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:49,520
be able to make choices in other
places. 

1146
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,400
So, you know, whether that's 
like on the walk or at home or, 

1147
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,240
you know, like it's it's not 
that we control every aspect of 

1148
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:57,640
their lives. 
So do you need freedom to make 

1149
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,440
their own choices? 
And normally we see that on a 

1150
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:00,840
walk. 
So that's why I said, like with 

1151
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:02,360
my dogs, I do. 
You can do whatever you want as 

1152
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:03,440
long as you come back when I 
call you. 

1153
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:05,600
So then I know that like if 
there's a football match or a 

1154
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,880
picnic or something, like I have
a deal with them where they're 

1155
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:09,160
not going to get themselves in 
trouble. 

1156
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:14,360
But when it comes to do our dogs
want to be protected or not, 

1157
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:16,840
Definitely the easiest place to 
look at that is with anxious 

1158
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,920
dogs, like most anxious dogs. 
OK, that would depend on the 

1159
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,080
breed. 
There might be some resistance 

1160
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:22,600
in the beginning, like you don't
know what you're doing. 

1161
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,160
I need to take care of this. 
You don't know. 

1162
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,880
I know, you know, because that's
they're used to and that's how 

1163
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:28,600
they've survived. 
Especially then with rescue 

1164
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:30,560
dogs, they're like, you don't 
know what you're talking about. 

1165
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:32,240
I'm going to do this. 
I've been doing me this whole 

1166
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,280
time and I've never let myself 
down. 

1167
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,320
And but mostly with anxious 
dogs, you can see that they're 

1168
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,040
happy to just, they almost kind 
of do an audible sigh sometimes,

1169
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,840
you know, where you're like, no,
it's OK, I've got this. 

1170
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:45,560
And you put them behind your 
back or behind the chair or 

1171
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,480
whatever it is. 
And they'll just go, oh, thank 

1172
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,400
God. 
But it depends on the breed. 

1173
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,320
Like there are like, and, and 
also depends on their life 

1174
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:55,120
experience. 
Like a lot of us, some of them 

1175
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:56,800
have learned to behave like that
for survival. 

1176
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:58,840
And so, you know, that's a 
mammal thing, right? 

1177
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:02,520
Like we all do that. 
And so it's through changing our

1178
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:05,720
behaviours and changing what 
they have to deal with that then

1179
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:07,720
maybe it might take a little bit
longer to explain. 

1180
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,040
Say this isn't your problem. 
You can chill out. 

1181
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,800
You can just like put along 
behind me or with me or, you 

1182
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,160
know, like I've got this. 
Doesn't matter what comes up. 

1183
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,280
It can be a troll, a hairy 
monster, a car driving in front 

1184
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:20,360
of us. 
I've got this OK. 

1185
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,240
Yeah. 
So and most dogs are happy with 

1186
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,800
that, you know, within reason, 
like there'll be some that are 

1187
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,120
just some people just like no, 
my dog would not like that. 

1188
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:31,040
But they have to be. 
They have to be that. 

1189
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,280
I guess that compliance ensures 
an easy life. 

1190
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:36,800
Easy life, yeah. 
Yeah, I mean, well, This is why 

1191
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,680
dogs have evolved so well with 
us is because most dogs are fine

1192
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:40,760
with that. 
You know, they're like, yeah, 

1193
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:42,720
OK, feed me and stroke me. 
I'm I'm done. 

1194
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,560
You know, like they're happy for
that mostly. 

1195
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:49,040
And so within, you know, reason 
like working dogs, that's a 

1196
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,840
whole other rabbit hole which we
don't need to go down now. 

1197
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:55,840
But most dogs, especially if 
they're suited to the 

1198
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,160
environment. 
So that's typically smaller 

1199
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:00,120
dogs. 
And, and by environment, I mean 

1200
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:04,040
city really and, and the average
person's lifestyle, you know, 

1201
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,760
like mostly that will be like 
smaller dogs, breeds that are 

1202
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,840
bred for companions to be a 
companion, you know, And so 

1203
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,480
there's lots of dogs that are 
suitable as companions. 

1204
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,200
We don't necessarily need to be 
having dogs like border collies 

1205
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,880
or Huskies or any of these 
ridiculous dogs that you're just

1206
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:20,800
like, oh, how could it possibly 
have gone wrong? 

1207
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,760
They don't know. 
Well, I, I was speaking to a 

1208
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,960
breeder, uh, recently and I just
said to him like, would like, 

1209
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,280
what's the main reason why 
people, you know, get dogs? 

1210
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,360
And he was saying that it's some
appearance, what they look like.

1211
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,360
So I and I would hazard a guess 
that a lot of people who end up 

1212
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,520
getting border collies or 
getting any kind of working dog 

1213
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:45,480
in an urban environment could be
because of what they look like. 

1214
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,280
You know, it could remind them 
of a dog that they liked when 

1215
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,760
they were a child. 
Or, you know, there's, it might 

1216
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,640
be some connection there. 
But yeah, I bet a lot of people 

1217
01:01:53,640 --> 01:02:00,360
don't actually know what to look
for and to even kind of make 

1218
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,240
that deduction that, OK, this is
the environment and this is the 

1219
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:04,920
kind of dog that I'm looking 
for. 

1220
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:08,240
Because within those breeds, 
you've also got this split of 

1221
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,320
like I recently learned that 
you've got, you know, kind of 

1222
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:16,080
the companion version of the 
Belgian Malinois and you've got 

1223
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:17,880
the working version of the 
Malinois. 

1224
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,520
You could actually. 
Is that not true? 

1225
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:24,280
Well, I mean, it's the first I'm
hearing of it, but if we're 

1226
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,160
saying that, that would have to 
be a lot of generations where 

1227
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:30,920
somebody picked the calmest of 
the litter, which, you know, and

1228
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:32,960
there has to be a lot of 
generations where you pick the 

1229
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:34,920
calmest of the litter. 
Given that the Malanoy is so 

1230
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,600
highly strong in the 1st place, 
you'd have to be like, I don't 

1231
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:39,560
think unless somebody's been 
working on this project and I 

1232
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:41,880
haven't heard of it for like the
last, I don't know, 30-40, fifty

1233
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,120
years, I'm pretty sure that that
is not going to be developed 

1234
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:46,400
enough. 
And that sounds to me like a 

1235
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,320
marketing scam, which there's so
many of them. 

1236
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:53,440
Like there's so many ways 
goodness, there's think of to to

1237
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,760
market the the the dogs, But but
there's always something there's

1238
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:02,560
there's always like AI don't 
know, a miniature, miniature 

1239
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,560
Australian shepherd or something
stupid like you just it's 

1240
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,240
there's a whole problem. 
But actually what you just 

1241
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:11,880
mentioned, there's something 
really interesting there with 

1242
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,280
the way that people choose dogs 
and it is often appearance and 

1243
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,480
sometimes it can be influenced 
by, you know, boring things like

1244
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:20,520
media or, you know, like films, 
photos, you know. 

1245
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:21,840
Yeah, that's very. 
Common, yeah. 

1246
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:25,040
Yeah, but there's another 
interesting thing which I find 

1247
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:30,000
fascinating, and it's from what 
I can tell, and this is just my 

1248
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:34,280
observations, like when people 
prefer like more natural looking

1249
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,000
dogs, so like sticky up hairs, 
curly tail, like the Spitz 

1250
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,880
family, or like, for example, 
this Husky problem that we have 

1251
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:43,480
when people get Huskies that 
seems to correlate to people 

1252
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,240
that don't necessarily fit in or
agree with society. 

1253
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:49,600
Not like have I simplified that 
Maybe like there's a part of 

1254
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:53,840
them that maybe feels like an 
outcast or that like they they 

1255
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,400
are like anti establishment or 
whatever it is, you know, like 

1256
01:03:56,440 --> 01:04:00,600
like a more kind of wild person,
a lone wolf, you know, that 

1257
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:04,360
whole kind of dynamic. 
And then you get then you know, 

1258
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,520
like floppy eared, 2 toned. 
In fact, there are some studies 

1259
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:12,840
because there was a rescue 
centre that realised that the 

1260
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:15,400
dogs that were getting adopted 
were of two coat colours and 

1261
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,800
with floppy ears, right. 
So then they would have solid 

1262
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:19,640
coat colours. 
Like black dogs were really hard

1263
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,080
to find homes for, especially 
black dogs are sticky up ears. 

1264
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,240
And I'm thinking like Anubis, 
like you don't see them very 

1265
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,080
often. 
But you know, these dogs weren't

1266
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,560
getting adopted. 
And So what they did was they 

1267
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,520
wrote poems and things on the 
wall and decorated their kennel 

1268
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:35,640
to be more like fluffy or cute 
or whatever. 

1269
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:40,560
And people then stopped to read 
the thing. 

1270
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:44,200
And so the dog was then getting 
looked at because of, you know, 

1271
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,720
they'd made more effort with the
kennel because what happened was

1272
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,640
happening before is they just 
walked past the dogs that 

1273
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,520
weren't appealing to them. 
And so they were getting sad. 

1274
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,120
And I can't remember what kennel
that was, but it was somebody 

1275
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:02,000
had done it a long time ago. 
And just actually then there was

1276
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:04,840
a fox study as well where they 
talking about the malandoirs. 

1277
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:10,440
They selected the the calmest 
foxes out of litters and they 

1278
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:13,800
eventually turned up like came 
out with the with the tame fox, 

1279
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,720
but that fox didn't look like 
the original fox, like it 

1280
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:18,520
didn't. 
It had then like more coat 

1281
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:21,560
colours and and like his ears 
were not so sticky up or 

1282
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:23,880
something like that. 
And so there's definitely then 

1283
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,600
like a correlation between dogs 
that are maybe more primitive in

1284
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:31,480
behaviour that maybe have sticky
up ears and maybe do we know 

1285
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,840
that innately? 
I don't know, like I have I had 

1286
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,800
a breed of dog that has sticky 
up ears and a curly tail and I 

1287
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:40,360
know that I was anti 
establishment. 

1288
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:44,120
So like that does obviously like
I'm going to think that, but I 

1289
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,920
wanted a natural looking dog 
because I don't like there's a 

1290
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,480
part of me that resents people 
for interfering in in nature, 

1291
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:53,840
you know, And so I'd see that in
dogs as well. 

1292
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,120
And obviously that carries over 
to breeds like pugs and 

1293
01:05:56,120 --> 01:06:00,120
Bulldogs, the cavalier spaniel, 
where they have extreme health 

1294
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:02,120
problems. 
And there's still a part of me 

1295
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,240
that resents people for having 
done that to dogs. 

1296
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,640
And then obviously then there's 
the crop tears and that, you 

1297
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:11,480
know, then I can get really into
like the all the injustices, but

1298
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:13,320
then that's choosing that kind 
of the negative path. 

1299
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:19,440
So leave that there. 
But it's it's all a reflection. 

1300
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:21,640
Like this whole thing with dogs 
is a reflection of us. 

1301
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:25,200
So even down to the breeds that 
we choose. 

1302
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,160
And I can always tell about 
people with what dogs that 

1303
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:31,040
they've. 
Chosen it's like someone, 

1304
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,440
someone said the other day, what
did he say? 

1305
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,320
It's like associate certain 
breeds with the live laugh, 

1306
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:42,160
laugh people, something like 
that. 

1307
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:46,960
And I was like, that's so wrong,
but I get it, you know what I 

1308
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,560
mean? 
Yeah, but which dog is in your 

1309
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:50,760
head now? 
It's floppy ears. 

1310
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,360
It's got 2 coat colours and this
looks like a teddy bear. 

1311
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,560
Yeah. 
So, so it's, it's, I mean, I 

1312
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,480
think it must have been 
researched a little bit, but I 

1313
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,080
don't have anything to back up 
what I'm saying. 

1314
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,120
There must be some weird 
connection there somehow, not 

1315
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,840
physically look like, but I 
guess maybe characteristics. 

1316
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:12,480
It's all identity, isn't it? 
Everything that we buy, 

1317
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:16,280
everything that we have, 
everything is just an extension 

1318
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:20,200
of ourselves or how we perceive 
ourselves to be or how we want 

1319
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:22,320
to be perceived. 
Which comes back to being able 

1320
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,680
to create your own reality, like
the choices that you're making 

1321
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:26,520
every day and creates the world 
around you. 

1322
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,880
And actually, like it goes the 
what we're talking about with 

1323
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:32,760
like you like a dog. 
It's like, OK, Staffies now have

1324
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:34,480
a bit of a better, better 
reputation. 

1325
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:37,120
But back in the day, you know, 
like all these bull breeds were 

1326
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,000
like gang dogs, right? 
And because they look 

1327
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,200
threatening and they've got 
short hair and they're muscly 

1328
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:43,640
and they want to be, you know, 
and that comes back to status 

1329
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:46,120
symbols, which is a whole nother
problem, which we don't need to 

1330
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:49,440
go off down, but it's all, it 
just goes in loops where it's 

1331
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:51,840
just all linked together and 
it's all a reflection and it's 

1332
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:54,040
all tied in. 
So essentially canine 

1333
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:58,280
facilitated coaching is just 
another one of those reflective 

1334
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:01,080
modalities that I'm trying to 
make actually useful to people 

1335
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:02,480
instead of like, oh, isn't that 
funny? 

1336
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:05,640
Yeah. 
But even that reflective that 

1337
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:11,080
that that reflective modality in
itself is an identity like good 

1338
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,240
like that because you 
immediately know what type of 

1339
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:16,359
people would go for that. 
Or at least I do, you know what 

1340
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:19,000
I mean, so. 
It gets funnier than that. 

1341
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:23,120
So we're in fact, one of my one 
of my coaches pulled me off on 

1342
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:26,960
this at one point, like after 
the breakdown of my last 

1343
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:31,560
relationship, I wanted to, to 
really study like relationship 

1344
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:33,880
counselling. 
And I'm really like the whole 

1345
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:35,920
relationship everything, 
attachment theory and all of it.

1346
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:41,000
And then my, my coachee was 
like, you know, that you're, 

1347
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:44,160
you're doing this via dogs 
because you can't do it to 

1348
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:46,160
people directly. 
Like you have to have the dogs 

1349
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:48,200
holding your hand. 
And I was like, Oh yeah. 

1350
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:52,120
Please unpack that. 
So that comes back to like the 

1351
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:55,479
whole anti human thing is that 
like, you know, maybe I didn't 

1352
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:57,439
have a voice, maybe I'm not very
confident. 

1353
01:08:57,479 --> 01:08:58,920
I mean, these aren't maybes, 
these are real. 

1354
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,439
Like I'm just saying maybe to 
like soften it a little bit. 

1355
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:05,319
But yeah, like there's, there's 
a lot of, you know, issues that 

1356
01:09:05,319 --> 01:09:11,279
I have that I seek supporting 
dogs and the dogs give me 

1357
01:09:11,279 --> 01:09:14,600
confidence like, and, and also I
probably had dogs when I lived 

1358
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:17,520
in London. 
I probably had dogs because then

1359
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:20,359
people noticed who I would like 
they saw me, whereas I'd always 

1360
01:09:20,359 --> 01:09:24,160
feel like invisible or not very 
like noticeable or, you know, 

1361
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:26,800
very bland or whatever. 
And I have these really striking

1362
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:28,920
dogs. 
I have this Alaskan cheek eye, 

1363
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:33,880
which looks like a small Husky. 
And I mean, there's another 

1364
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:35,680
reason for that. 
Like I actually wanted a street 

1365
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:37,960
dog because like I said, I 
wanted a natural dog, but I 

1366
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:40,040
couldn't get a street dog at the
time, so I can't this Alaskan 

1367
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:42,840
clique guy. 
Anyway, they're striking to look

1368
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:43,920
at. 
And so everybody when they walk 

1369
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:48,479
down the street, they're like, 
oh, and what happened was I, you

1370
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:52,920
know, in my community on Kings 
Rd, I lived, people knew me when

1371
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:55,640
I was with the dog. 
And then whenever I went out 

1372
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:57,600
without the dog, nobody knew who
I was. 

1373
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,600
I was like, hey, and they're 
like, oh, it's you. 

1374
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,680
So, you know, like I've always 
had and, and it's probably a bit

1375
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:06,520
of social awkwardness. 
Yeah. 

1376
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:08,640
So I remember, like, when I 
first came to this community in 

1377
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:11,080
Portugal, I was absolutely 
bricking it. 

1378
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:13,040
Like, I was terrified. 
I was like, Oh my God, I've 

1379
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:14,640
never been around this many 
people before. 

1380
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:16,760
Like, how am I going to cope? 
Like, why am I even here? 

1381
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:19,760
What am I doing? 
And I remember finding a dog on 

1382
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:22,480
day one and being like, oh, I 
found a dog panic over. 

1383
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,400
And so I just always gravitate 
towards the dogs. 

1384
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:29,160
And like any situation I'm in, 
like if I feel uncomfortable, I 

1385
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:31,280
will go and stroke the dog. 
Like, or I'll just call the dog 

1386
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:33,440
to me. 
Or like there's always a dog 

1387
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:36,200
helping me get through something
at some point. 

1388
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:39,240
Like if I'm uncomfortable. 
And so obviously, like it was a 

1389
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:44,680
big challenge for me to like go 
into coaching people and you 

1390
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:47,880
know, like I did a life coaching
course, but that was for people 

1391
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:49,120
and there wasn't any dogs at 
that. 

1392
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:50,400
Nothing. 
It's uncomfortable. 

1393
01:10:50,440 --> 01:10:54,200
And then now, like, I, I mean, I
could maybe be a life coach for 

1394
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,280
actual humans, but that would 
feel uncomfortable. 

1395
01:10:57,280 --> 01:10:59,840
So now I'm life coaching people 
with their dogs. 

1396
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:03,560
Do you know what you are your 
clients? 

1397
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,600
I know. 
So you've got a very unique 

1398
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:09,880
insight there, not just all of 
the cases that you've dealt with

1399
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:13,640
as a trainer and as a 
behaviourist, but also now as a 

1400
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:16,120
life coach. 
Yeah, when the first time I had 

1401
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:19,560
to leave my dog when I went on 
holiday, I cried and I was like,

1402
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:20,800
and my mum was like laughing at 
me. 

1403
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:22,080
She was like, why are you 
crying? 

1404
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:24,520
She's going to be fine. 
Like, And now when I think back 

1405
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:26,760
about it, I was like, that is 
that's bizarre. 

1406
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:32,320
Why, why was I crying? 
But at the time, it felt really 

1407
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:35,560
real and it was the first time 
I'd left her since I had her. 

1408
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:39,320
And it was obviously not a big 
deal. 

1409
01:11:39,440 --> 01:11:42,960
Like logically it wasn't a big 
deal, but whatever was happening

1410
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:46,160
inside was a big deal for me at 
the time. 

1411
01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:50,040
So like I do have a way to like,
because I feel like I've come 

1412
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:54,800
through it and OK, maybe I've 
been working with dogs for too 

1413
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,120
long because sometimes now they 
annoy me and I'm like, oh, go 

1414
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:01,360
away. 
It happens. 

1415
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,760
So, you know, like I've, I've 
kind of come through the other 

1416
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:10,600
side in, I mean, I have a 7 year
old actual human child. 

1417
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,720
I was going to ask you actually,
do you feel the same? 

1418
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:16,600
Is it the same having a child 
versus having a dog? 

1419
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:21,600
It's it's in terms of the need 
that you need to have met. 

1420
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,240
Yeah, companion. 
Well, obviously, like now she's 

1421
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:27,240
7, like she's so much more, like
has so much more autonomy now. 

1422
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:31,560
So, you know, like firstly, like
that whole experience was like 

1423
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:33,600
changed my life. 
And that probably did help me 

1424
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:37,120
like return to like humans and 
women and like heal my 

1425
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:39,760
relationship with my mother. 
And then like go down that whole

1426
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,360
like feminine lineage ancestry 
thing that I'm just like, Oh my 

1427
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:48,040
God, now I get it. 
Um, and, but but yeah, like 

1428
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:51,840
it's, it's kind of feels the 
same as how I used to feel about

1429
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:53,760
my dogs before I had a child, if
that makes sense. 

1430
01:12:54,440 --> 01:12:58,080
So before I had a child, my dogs
were like my everything. 

1431
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:01,040
But now I have a child. 
My dogs are almost my everything

1432
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,920
because I have and everything, 
if that makes sense. 

1433
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:07,600
So it is the same feeling that 
just swaps on to something else.

1434
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:11,560
I feel this could just be me, 
but and then but then like times

1435
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,400
a million because then obviously
like that whole child for the 

1436
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:15,880
rest of their life and then they
can speak English. 

1437
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,200
So then they tell you stuff that
like you're doing wrong and 

1438
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:21,280
you're just like, what? 
So it's so it's very different, 

1439
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:22,640
but there's a lot of 
similarities. 

1440
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:26,720
And that's why I think that like
we have this innate instinct and

1441
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:28,400
it needs to be satisfied 
somehow. 

1442
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:32,600
And currently our culture 
favours dogs, so that's why I 

1443
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:34,600
feel like that. 
So it is a lot to do with my 

1444
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:39,520
personal experiences and how I 
view the world. 

1445
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:43,200
But I feel like when I tell 
people about it, it, they relate

1446
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:45,840
to it and it makes sense. 
So that's how I kind of have 

1447
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:47,120
justified that. 
Yeah. 

1448
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:48,720
No, no, no. 
That's really interesting. 

1449
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:53,720
I would really love to see, I 
don't know, some kind of data. 

1450
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:58,040
I did hear that there was a big 
corporation, I think the Mars 

1451
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:01,480
Corporation, doing a study on 
like the complexities of the 

1452
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:05,200
human animal companion Bond. 
Is it mass pet care? 

1453
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:09,520
I think so, yeah, I think 
they're they're starting a study

1454
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:14,440
that is going to be going into 
like how are dogs or pets, can't

1455
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:18,960
remember if it was dogs or pets 
impact our emotional well-being.

1456
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:22,600
I think it was, but this was 
recent I think. 

1457
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:25,240
I'm not sure if they've come up 
with anything yet. 

1458
01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:26,800
OK, I'll look into that. 
I. 

1459
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,320
Think it was going to be a big 
study like over a longer term 

1460
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:32,080
and and like a global like 
something big it. 

1461
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:33,920
Sounds like that would be really
useful. 

1462
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:40,960
A lot of of what we're talking 
about is rebalancing the dynamic

1463
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:44,320
between humans and dogs because 
people might get a dog because 

1464
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:47,560
with their own kind of selfish 
motivations maybe. 

1465
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:52,240
But then the the, the priority 
becomes the dog. 

1466
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:56,800
And so like the the suffering 
isn't necessarily just the dog, 

1467
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:58,520
it's the people are suffering as
well. 

1468
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:03,600
And it's not, I feel like. 
I mean, there's no Band-Aid. 

1469
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:06,000
Yeah, yeah, it's an escapism as 
well. 

1470
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:09,080
But there's there's so much 
beauty in a relationship between

1471
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:12,200
people and dogs that it's not 
like everything's lost. 

1472
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:17,040
It's just that maybe people need
to come home to themselves and 

1473
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:19,520
think, do you know what? 
I've survived this far. 

1474
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:21,600
You know, I'm X amount of years 
old. 

1475
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:24,400
I'm doing OK. 
And even if I'm not doing OK, I 

1476
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:28,320
know that at some point I will 
be doing OK and to get through 

1477
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:31,160
that and OK, it's fine. 
If, if a dog is the only thing 

1478
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:34,040
getting you through that, then 
then that's, you know, an 

1479
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:37,840
honourable position for the dog.
I would feel, you know, but to 

1480
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:42,440
know that everything is going to
be OK eventually, I think is, is

1481
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:44,480
kind of what keeps us going, you
know, like having our 

1482
01:15:44,480 --> 01:15:49,240
relationship with our dog. 
And it's never like it, this is 

1483
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:50,960
too late to teach and all talk 
new tricks. 

1484
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:53,920
Like, it's never that for the 
dog or the person, you know, And

1485
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:55,920
sometimes, like I'll be in 
sessions with people and it'll 

1486
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:58,080
just be really simple things and
they'll be like, Oh my God, this

1487
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:01,600
has changed everything. 
And like, for me, that's 

1488
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:03,240
obviously massive job 
satisfaction. 

1489
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:07,120
But for the for the dog, it's 
made a wild of difference. 

1490
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:09,200
And, you know, like you can't 
change the world or whatever, 

1491
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:11,560
but that for the dog, for that 
one dog, you've changed their 

1492
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:13,320
world or whatever it is. 
You know, the quote I mean. 

1493
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:16,040
Yeah. 
And, you know, there is a part 

1494
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:19,120
of me that thinks I wish I could
do like more on a bigger scale, 

1495
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:22,600
you know, and, and do I need to 
write a book or start an online 

1496
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:26,080
course or, you know, like try 
and free up like information for

1497
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,240
more people to like make more of
a difference. 

1498
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:32,280
But also I really enjoy working 
one-on-one because I like the 

1499
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,480
intimacy of it. 
I like to be able to like 

1500
01:16:34,480 --> 01:16:38,080
connect with somebody and that 
goes back to community does 

1501
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:39,880
that. 
Yeah, Yeah, it does. 

1502
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:43,720
But then also facilitating, 
hopefully eventually other 

1503
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,360
people being able to connect 
with others who are on a similar

1504
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:50,080
journey. 
I I would like for you to maybe,

1505
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:52,560
you know, take this as a users 
platform. 

1506
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:56,000
You know, if someone's made it 
this far and they might be 

1507
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:59,600
interested in exploring, 
deepening their bond with their 

1508
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,640
dog, having a chat with you, how
do they find you? 

1509
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:05,400
So at the moment, my Instagram 
is my most stable place. 

1510
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:08,920
So that's that's the one I 
mentioned earlier, earlier at 

1511
01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:14,520
Hannah Greener underscore and to
send me Adm on there, then I can

1512
01:17:15,480 --> 01:17:19,000
get the ball rolling or just 
speak or answer questions or 

1513
01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:21,440
it's definitely like you say, 
it's quite niche and it's quite 

1514
01:17:21,440 --> 01:17:23,880
abstract. 
So, you know, it takes a lot of 

1515
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:25,920
explaining to kind of understand
what we're doing here. 

1516
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,440
And it took up, took me ages to 
work out what was going on, you 

1517
01:17:28,440 --> 01:17:31,880
know? 
So yeah, I think just get in 

1518
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:36,600
touch, probably just send me a 
message on Instagram or I mean, 

1519
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:39,960
I felt like my e-mail might not 
necessarily be, I don't know if 

1520
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:41,480
I'm changing my e-mail or not, 
basically. 

1521
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:45,720
OK, well Instagram it is then. 
If anyone's interested, reach 

1522
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:48,640
out to Hannah, have a chat. 
Just explore. 

1523
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:51,440
Just lean in with curiosity and 
see where it leads. 

1524
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:53,640
Absolutely, yeah. 
Yeah, that would be cool. 

1525
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:57,080
Oh my gosh, Hannah, I wish we 
had more time, but unfortunately

1526
01:17:57,080 --> 01:17:59,840
I don't have enough time to edit
these podcasts every week. 

1527
01:18:01,440 --> 01:18:03,920
You bless you like sit like 
going through and like deleting 

1528
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:05,880
all my likes or something. 
I'm like, Oh my God, why Just 

1529
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:08,960
say it so. 
No, no, you're fine. 

1530
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:11,480
No, you're fine. 
You're lovely. 

1531
01:18:11,480 --> 01:18:14,280
It was a really lovely chat. 
Thank you so much for your time.

1532
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:17,880
And I yeah, I'm just so 
grateful. 

1533
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:19,920
It's a very different 
conversation to be having. 

1534
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:22,720
But you know, I'm just buzzing 
off of all these different 

1535
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:26,240
people I get to speak with. 
And I mean, it's wacky, it's 

1536
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:28,480
weird, it's wonderful. 
Everyone is different. 

1537
01:18:28,480 --> 01:18:31,880
There's a proper mixed bag I'm 
discovering I'm speaking to. 

1538
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:32,960
Really. 
Really. 

1539
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:36,840
And people I wouldn't normally 
have had an opportunity to speak

1540
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:38,520
with. 
So I'm just very grateful. 

1541
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:40,880
I'm just happy to be here, so 
thank you so much. 

1542
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:42,480
Yeah, absolutely. 
My pleasure. 

1543
01:18:42,480 --> 01:18:45,320
And I think it's amazing the 
podcast and like it like when I 

1544
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:49,160
read the the intro paragraph, I 
was like, Oh my gosh, this is 

1545
01:18:49,160 --> 01:18:51,600
incredible. 
You know, like aligned with what

1546
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:54,440
I'm like feeling and and feeling
into at the moment. 

1547
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:57,160
But also that you're kind of 
keeping an open mind and going 

1548
01:18:57,160 --> 01:19:00,520
across different everybody, you 
know, like different places and 

1549
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:03,640
speaking to different people and
not pigeonholing into like, what

1550
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:06,040
do you think is the right thing 
or what somebody else thinks the

1551
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,360
right is the right thing. 
You'd be more like investigative

1552
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:10,200
with it. 
And I think that's an incredible

1553
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:15,720
perspective to hold and to not 
to not kind of get folded into, 

1554
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:17,560
Oh well, this is right, this is 
wrong and this is how it's 

1555
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:19,720
always going to be. 
And be real close minded with 

1556
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:21,520
it, you know? 
Well, it's, it's a struggle. 

1557
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:23,680
I'm going to be honest with you 
because I have to question my 

1558
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:27,160
own biases and, and ultimately 
just remind myself that I am 

1559
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:29,520
ignorant. 
I don't know enough about 

1560
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:32,360
anything to have a very strong 
opinion about anything. 

1561
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:36,640
So going forward, I just have to
remind myself to stay open, be 

1562
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:41,640
curious, listen, that's it. 
So yeah, we try every, every 

1563
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:44,280
conversation is an opportunity 
for me to do better. 

1564
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:47,800
So yeah, anyways, thank you for 
being part of that journey. 

1565
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:50,080
Thank you for having me, it's 
been an absolute pleasure and I 

1566
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:52,360
love speaking to you. 
Ditto. 

1567
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:56,040
Right. 
Well, I hope your business goes 

1568
01:19:56,040 --> 01:20:01,160
super well and you know if, if, 
if it ends up having legs, we'll

1569
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:03,280
have you back on again. 
So you can talk us through some 

1570
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:06,400
of those case studies and 
connect with more people. 

1571
01:20:06,480 --> 01:20:08,280
Amazing. 
Yeah, I look forward to that.