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Good morning. 
Good morning. 

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I'm Nadine, the host of Just a 
Dog Podcast, and this is my 

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special guest making her debut 
on the podcast. 

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She is called Doona and she is a
Spanish Greyhound, also known as

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a Galga, and she's my first 
foster dog. 

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I've got her on Saturday. 
She's available for adoption if 

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anybody's interested. 
She's just the most gorgeous 

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soul and she's very food 
motivated and yeah, she's just 

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very gentle, very cuddly. 
She takes up a lot of space in 

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bed night time. 
She's a space hogger. 

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But yeah, she's just gorgeous, 
absolutely gorgeous. 

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So yeah, if you're interested to
know more, just contact Project 

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Galgo and the team will take 
care of you there. 

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All right. 
Thank you, Dina. 

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Thank you. 
Right. 

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She's gonna she's had a walk. 
She's had her number one and her

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number 2 and her breakfast and 
she will likely go schnooze now 

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have her marathon schnooze fest.
Here you go. 

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Do now enjoy. 
Enjoy your nap, right? 

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Podcast episode for today. 
Hello, I'm Nadine, I am the 

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podcast host for just a dog 
podcast. 

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I wanted to hop on here before I
press publish on this week's 

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episode and I wanted to make 
clear that I am not a dog 

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trainer, I'm not a behaviourist.
I am quite literally just a 

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regular dog person, someone who 
loves dogs and who's basically 

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started asking questions. 
And those questions have led to 

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even bigger questions. 
And I have a natural interest in

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psychology, sociology, 
philosophy, obviously dogs and 

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dog behaviour. 
But yeah, I'm not a dog trainer 

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and I'm never going to be a dog 
trainer. 

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But what I do know is that dog 
training has become quite the 

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battlefield. 
It's a space where experts talk 

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past each other and the rest of 
us try and figure out what is 

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actually best for our dogs, and 
so the advice out there can be 

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quite contradictory. 
The debates are quite heated and

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frankly, as a regular dog person
I find it confusing as hell, 

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especially since I started 
fostering recently. 

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I didn't expect this to happen, 
but it's happened. 

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I get unsolicited training 
advice constantly and I know 

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that most people mean well. 
And while I'm not an expert, I 

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do know that I've realised that 
some of this advice could be 

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quite harmful. 
And so that's made me wonder, if

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regular dog lovers are spreading
misinformation without knowing 

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it, then what about the 
professionals? 

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Are they all working from the 
same evidence base? 

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Is that empirical and scientific
or anecdotal and experience 

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based? 
Is the industry regulated? 

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So is there a common standard 
for trainers that are required 

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that they are required to 
uphold? 

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Do they all want what's best for
dogs, even when those methods 

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look completely different? 
Yeah. 

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So you will learn that today's 
guest uses techniques that many 

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would condemn outright, and my 
instinct was to do the same. 

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I know that some people will be 
upset with me for giving him a 

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platform. 
And to those people, I want to 

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say I understand. 
For most of my life I've been 

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quite a black and white thinker.
That's to say, I like for things

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to make sense, for them to fit 
neatly into a box that says this

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is right and this is wrong. 
But unfortunately, the world 

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doesn't work like that. 
There are so many Shades of 

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Grey. 
As a photographer, I could tell 

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you that even white is 18% grey,
you know? 

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So I've come to learn over time 
that actually black and white 

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thinking is lazy thinking. 
And now I try my best to 

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understand the grey areas where 
I can. 

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Because if I don't, I will be a 
very grumpy person because life 

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just won't fit neatly into my 
right or wrong boxes. 

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So yeah, dismissing perspectives
just doesn't help us understand 

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what actually works, and what 
works for us immediately might 

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not work for the dog's 
well-being in the long term. 

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So this begs the question, do we
care more about results and 

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immediate outcomes, or do we 
look at our dogs and our 

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responsibility towards them 
holistically? 

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And at what point do we take 
action to avoid being desperate 

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and reactive and making 
decisions based, you know, 

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coming from that place? 
So this topic is so broad, it's 

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so nuanced, and it's so layered 
and complex. 

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And there were moments that I 
felt completely out of my depth.

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And you will probably hear that.
And that's OK because this 

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conversation is merely A 
stepping stone to understanding 

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a little bit more. 
And I am comfortable with you 

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seeing that process. 
And I'm not here to tell you 

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what's right or wrong. 
I genuinely don't know. 

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I tend to use my morals and 
values as a guiding compass. 

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But even saying that, there's a 
lot that I don't know that I 

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don't know. 
And I want to know more. 

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So I'm here because someone 
needs to ask the uncomfortable 

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questions. 
And there will be other dog 

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owners who are thinking the 
same, but they might not be able

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to articulate it. 
And so I believe that if we can 

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have these conversations, we can
stay focused on the dogs because

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ultimately, it is them who pay 
the price. 

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And this isn't about agreeing 
with everything that we hear. 

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It is about understanding enough
to make better decisions for the

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dogs in our care. 
So without further ado, today's 

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guest is Jack Tutti. 
Jack started his dog training 

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journey young. 
He was working with severe 

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behavioural cases in kennels for
about 5 years under an 

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experienced mentor with a 
background in the military. 

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This hands on experience with 
rehabilitation and rehoming LED 

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Jack to found JMP Canine 
Academy. 

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And so for the past four years, 
Jack has focused on competitive 

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IGP work. 
We'll learn more about that 

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shortly. 
Titling his Rottweiler whilst 

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helping dog owners across the 
country through one to one 

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lessons, workshops and of course
through his social media 

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presence. 
I stumbled upon his Instagram 

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account and I saw his videos and
I immediately thought wow, he is

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very articulate. 
He is someone who is quite 

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opinionated and I was curious to
learn more and just have an open

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and respectful conversation. 
And so I reached out to Jack and

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he thankfully accepted my 
invitation. 

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And so this is part one of our 
conversation. 

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Part 2 will be available from 
Thursday next week. 

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But yeah, I hope that you find 
this conversation insightful. 

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I hope that you will join me in 
the spirit of openness and, you 

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know, share your thoughts and 
views in a respectful way and be

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part of the conversation. 
Let's let's help to elevate each

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other in terms of our 
understanding and shared 

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knowledge and experience. 
So without further ado, here's 

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our interview. 
Jack, welcome to the podcast. 

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Thank you so much for having me.
It's it's great to be here. 

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It's great to have you on, so 
let's get started. 

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I would love to know more about 
you. 

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Please tell me first of all a 
bit more about your background 

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and also your dogs. 
So my background, my background 

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started quite a while ago now at
30 this year. 

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So we're getting a little bit 
less open about admitting about 

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how long we've been in dogs, but
we've been over, I think it's 

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about 16 years now of my life. 
So it's practically speaking my 

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adult life. 
But I started out working with 

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Red Line Rehabilitation 
effectively and severe 

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behavioural cases that were due 
either for destruction or had 

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some sort of court order on them
from bite histories and so on 

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and so forth. 
And so when I was about 14 or 

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15, it was very different time. 
Health and safety was probably a

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different place, but when I was 
at 1415, I learned under the 

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wing of a sort of military dog 
handler and Graham, who was a 

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fantastic mentor in so many 
ways. 

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And yeah, it just sort of 
evolved from that. 

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And then I saw and from that 
point I spent a lot of time 

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working in the rescues, 
rehabbing and rehoming these 

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dogs, getting them. 
I mean, it's quite a significant

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difference when you can walk a 
dog out in a nice polite, he'll 

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stop in front of the person, you
know, like the person has come 

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in to rescue it if they see a 
dog that is beddable and 

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cooperative. 
Obviously there was a lot of 

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help for these people when we 
transitioned them over, but 

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those dogs are the dogs that 
left quickly. 

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You get me. 
And sometimes the the cases that

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you got were just the that dog 
didn't belong on a destruction 

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order. 
It was just a mishandled or 

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whatever it might be. 
So that's where I started. 

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Fast forwards to my early 20s 
and I opened GNP and JMP has 

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basically been a one to one pet 
service where I've been helping 

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people with their pets. 
I specialise mostly or I get 

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probably my most of my work with
pets is done for reactivity. 

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Resource garden you're sort of 
begged over problems. 

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That tends to be what I've seen 
to have fallen into as a dog 

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trainer with clients. 
At least then my boys put in a 

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nutshell mask on my Rottweiler. 
He's he's my working competition

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dog. 
So he'll be I'll be competing 

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with him in the near future and 
hopefully getting a nice, nice 

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couple of titles on him. 
And dude as a dog that was 

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originally going to be a rehab 
and rehome, but he he challenged

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me enough to stay would be the 
best way to describe it would be

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the best way to to articulate 
that. 

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So that's sort of like if I was 
to nutshell it best I can that 

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sort of like origin story as it 
were. 

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What is a working competition 
dog? 

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So. 
For and in the content in this 

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context it would be an IG IGP 
dog. 

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So IGP is a, is a competitive 
dog sport, bite dog sport where 

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there are effectively 3 sections
of it. 

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There are you have your bite 
work element, your protection 

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element of it, you have your 
tracking element of it and you 

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have your obedience element of 
it. 

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And the dog has to be able to 
perform a sequence of 

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complicated behaviours and show 
a high level of control and also

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a high level of expression and 
exactness with regards to the 

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work that that they do. 
And I that's, it's something to 

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aim at and I think that's very 
important for dog owners and dog

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and people in the canine 
industry. 

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You've got to have something to 
aim at, you know. 

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So I think that that's a big 
reason why I sort of leaned into

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that because I sort of ran out 
of things that really excited me

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about pet dog training at one 
point. 

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And I needed to go and get into 
a different pond where I was the

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smallest fish. 
And so from that point I just 

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sort of grew from there. 
But that was four years ago and 

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I had Masters 4 1/2 now. 
What do you call it again? 

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You used an acronym IGP. 
IGPIGP yes, yes, do not like if 

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you ask me to pronounce what 
that stands for. 

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I haven't got the German dialect
down. 

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So it used to be called 
schutzing the back in the back 

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in like the early 1900s. 
It used to be called schutzing. 

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Right OK I'm completely new to 
this world. 

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Is this the type of dog training
where they they usually? 

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I think I've seen some videos of
Belgian Malinois, like heading 

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towards a dude with a massive 
suit on, like a sumo suit. 

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Similar. 
So an IGP, it's not a suit, it's

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a, it's a jute sleeve and you'll
have seen it. 

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You'll have seen it, I imagine 
in different contexts. 

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But yeah, it's in the same vein 
as that, absolutely. 

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Right. 
OK. 

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And what what, other than for 
the trainer or the owner, is the

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benefit for the dog? 
Oh, what a good question. 

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So for mascot mascot, you have 
to understand the character of 

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these dogs. 
So you have to understand that 

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this is not the same thing as 
even if, even if somebody bought

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the exact same breed, these 
masks are in particular has been

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Brett. 
His dad was a world champion in 

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this particular sport and that 
creates a very substantive 

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character with regards to the 
dog. 

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Very intense. 
There's a lot of behaviours, 

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there's a lot of genetic 
proclivities that a lot of pet 

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owners would never, ever want in
a dog. 

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And it's important to sort of, I
think very in my, in the work 

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that I do differentiate the work
that I do with my working dog 

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and the work that I do with my 
clients pet dogs because 

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genetically they're, they're, 
they're extremely different 

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animals. 
But for Maska, that's fulfilment

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of this might sound a bit odd to
some people, but when Maska goes

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and bites people once a week, 
it's his favourite day of the 

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week. 
And as a result of that, what 

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happens is the dog learns that 
if he wants access to this 

227
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,600
extremely valuable thing that he
has to go through the handler to

228
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,040
get access to it or through his 
dad to get access to it. 

229
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,600
And that creates such synergy in
your relationship when it can be

230
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,560
executed well. 
And it also it gives the dog, 

231
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,600
you've got to understand that 
these dogs are in a very 

232
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,360
fighting emotive headspace when 
they're doing these things. 

233
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,200
And so it's as much like if you 
have a box or go into a boxing 

234
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,480
ring, he's not going to be super
chilled and relaxed. 

235
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,480
He's going to be ready and he's 
going to be, you know, moving 

236
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,960
around, you know, and but he's 
going to also have some form of 

237
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,480
forward aggression because 
that's involved in the sport 

238
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,600
that he's doing. 
And so what's really nice about 

239
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,960
that is that you can teach the 
dog to control these more 

240
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,560
extreme ends of their emotions 
through these outlets and 

241
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,320
through these expressions of 
what would normally be 

242
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,720
considered antisocial. 
Behaviour. 

243
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:15,760
Right. 
OK. 

244
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,800
So, so OK. 
But that is limited only to comp

245
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,480
to a competition environment. 
How do they switch off that part

246
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,400
of them in a urban environment? 
Or not. 

247
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,600
So that's a, again, a really 
good question. 

248
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,080
So for IGP in particular, 
there's a lot of set up. 

249
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,280
So there's a lot of so the, the 
routine and IGP remains the 

250
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,400
same. 
So for instance, mascot 

251
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,800
understands that he's going to 
go do bite work and it's 

252
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,040
contextualised to that field and
it's also contextualised to 

253
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,560
permission, you know, like 
there, there may be, it's never 

254
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,920
happened. 
There may be a situation where 

255
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,640
mask is asked to perform those 
behaviours outside of that 

256
00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,960
picture. 
But the, the, the, the key with 

257
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,840
it is have is creating stability
around that that picture as 

258
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,960
well. 
So you want stability throughout

259
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,520
the dog's behaviour. 
If you're going to show them 

260
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,000
these extreme ends of their of 
their character, you have to 

261
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,800
also show them, hey, listen, you
can't just be like this 

262
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,320
everywhere. 
You've got to cooperate. 

263
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,400
You practise cooperative skills 
with the dog. 

264
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,960
You practise, you know, you make
yourself immensely valuable to 

265
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,440
listen to to the dog, but you 
also add consequence in for as 

266
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,320
the dog was to get it wrong, as 
the dog was to prefer, for 

267
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,600
instance, assume the key was to 
go into that state of mind in a 

268
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,680
situation when you don't want 
him to. 

269
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,160
You have to be able to 
adequately interrupt and explain

270
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,160
that to the dog in a way that 
produces the clarity where the 

271
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,200
dog goes. 
OK, I made a mistake there, you 

272
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,040
know, and I think that that's an
important, it's a really 

273
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,280
important question. 
I think a lot of people who 

274
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,960
think about protection sports, 
they see it or protection work, 

275
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,400
they see it almost as like a, I 
don't really know how to 

276
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,360
describe it. 
They see it as sort of like a 

277
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,240
combat, very combative, sort of 
very, very gritty thing. 

278
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,800
And I think actually it's a 
beautiful thing as as to see the

279
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,640
dog express the its biology and 
who he is to the extent that 

280
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,960
they that they do it and and 
these sports and then so on top 

281
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,800
of that, have so much clarity 
that they know when to switch 

282
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,200
that on and switch that emotion 
off. 

283
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,280
I think that's beautiful dog 
training and anyone's, but I do 

284
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:19,920
think it's very important. 
Oh, OK. 

285
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,359
Yeah. 
I can actually see and 

286
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,720
understand how dogs, as you call
it, with a certain biological 

287
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:32,080
proclivity, would benefit from 
the innate nature being 

288
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,680
expressed in a controlled 
environment. 

289
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,240
I can see that. 
I guess it's similar to a side 

290
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,640
hound. 
I don't know. 

291
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,800
Chase and pray it'd be it's so 
it's that is and this is 

292
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,120
important you. 
Don't want it? 

293
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,240
Yeah, but like at the same time,
the only the the opposite of 

294
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,520
expression is suppression. 
And so you have to consider that

295
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,720
if the dog is not allowed 
anywhere to express that part of

296
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,120
themselves, then this can cause 
a lot of conflict in the in the 

297
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,440
relationship with the dog or 
between the dog and the. 

298
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,240
I see a lot of conflict. 
It can definitely cause some. 

299
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,960
It can definitely cause rifts 
between the dog and the handler,

300
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,040
because depending on what the 
genetic proclivities are, it can

301
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,760
sort of express in different 
directions, if that makes sense.

302
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,200
OK. 
So do you have any examples of 

303
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,560
what that might look like the? 
So one of the more common and 

304
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,680
easy examples is call these 
chasing cars. 

305
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,120
That's probably one of the 
easier examples I could I could 

306
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:29,600
give you, right. 
So they have this genetic urge 

307
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,040
to control the movement of fast 
moving objects and other 

308
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,040
animals. 
There's a genetic proclivity for

309
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,000
that. 
Now, if I invent a game with a 

310
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,680
collie that involves those 
genetic drives, those genetic 

311
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,960
drives are seen as sort of 
socially acceptable, aren't 

312
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,480
they? 
But the, and they're OK to 

313
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,560
express and whatever else. 
But equally, if you get a very, 

314
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,680
very well bred collie from like 
bred from cattle lines, these 

315
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,520
are often very forward, very 
confident, very willing to bite,

316
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,040
very, very sort of 
confrontational animals because 

317
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,000
they stand up against these 
huge, huge cattle and they have 

318
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,040
to have that character. 
And so when you have a dog 

319
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,520
that's bred like that, collie 
that's bred like that, and you 

320
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,160
have a collie that's bred, for 
instance, just with two pet 

321
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,440
collies that have been found 
together, you have the same 

322
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,160
breed. 
And maybe it's the same genetic 

323
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,360
proclivity, but you have 
different levels of expression 

324
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:23,280
that's required for these two 
dogs. 

325
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,400
Does that make sense? 
But another example would be 

326
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,680
bill breeds. 
Bill breeds are a really common 

327
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,240
one that I work with. 
I love bill breeds. 

328
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,680
My girlfriend has a bloody Bill 
breed downstairs and Bruno and 

329
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,280
I've always had a Bill breed, 
but like Bill breeds like to 

330
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,400
fight. 
And whether or not that's 

331
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,080
socially acceptable or not, 
again, doesn't really matter. 

332
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,560
What we're what we have to look 
at is the biology of the dog. 

333
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,280
And if I again, don't allow for 
a controlled expression of that 

334
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,120
element of the dog, then that 
element has to go somewhere 

335
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:55,080
else. 
It'll pop up if you suppress it 

336
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:56,840
over here, it's going to pop up 
over here. 

337
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,120
But if I if I teach the dog how 
to play a competitive game with 

338
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:03,840
me, that this game has rules and
if you break the rules, you 

339
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,440
might even get in trouble. 
You know, and when I have when I

340
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,080
have that sort of understanding 
and that cooperation between me 

341
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,920
and the dog, at that point, it's
very easy to start getting 

342
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,200
through behavioural problems 
because the dog is what we just 

343
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,840
is committing itself every time 
it's going out to play with you.

344
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:25,840
And I think that that's, and for
bill breeds especially or dogs 

345
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,960
that like to bite and rag, these
are things that need to be 

346
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,880
expressed in the dog. 
And I think that society's 

347
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,080
proclivity is to suppress them. 
And I think it's just knowing 

348
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,520
how to do it properly that 
people really struggle with the 

349
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:38,160
most. 
Right. 

350
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,720
With the with bullies. 
I was, just for context, just 

351
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,520
recently published a podcast 
episode with Sophie Coulthard, 

352
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,000
who I don't know if you. 
Yeah. 

353
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:54,640
And as a result of that 
interview, I had a trainer reach

354
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,800
out to me saying, you know, can 
when, when are you going to 

355
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,280
interview a trainer? 
I. 

356
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,480
Was like, I was like, guess 
what, Monday. 

357
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,040
There we are. 
There we are. 

358
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,760
Exactly. 
And he was basically asking me 

359
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,800
to ask you questions. 
So I've got a, I've got a long 

360
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,680
list of questions. 
I don't know if we'll be able to

361
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,800
go get get through it, but. 
Yeah, I love question. 

362
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,160
I love, I say this to all my 
workshops. 

363
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,640
I said if I if don't ask 
questions, I've either done my 

364
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,240
job very, very well or nobody's 
listening to what what I'm 

365
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,440
saying. 
I love that. 

366
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,320
Well, I love that you're so open
to this because honestly, it's 

367
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,160
so it's impossible to have open 
conversations these days. 

368
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,960
Right, I, I won't get off into 
the woods with this, but my 

369
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,320
general philosophy in life is 
that the moment that we refuse 

370
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,800
to have conversations about 
contentious, our, our 

371
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,040
argumentative points is the 
moment that we, we don't ever 

372
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,840
come to a solution. 
You know, we have to, we have to

373
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,640
like, I'm very happy to talk to 
anyone at any point. 

374
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,400
And if anyone has any critiques 
or anything that they want to 

375
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,280
throw back at me, that's 
something I actually quite enjoy

376
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,720
combining with because I think 
it's like a, maybe a personality

377
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,120
trait or something. 
But when somebody offers me 

378
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:06,440
something or have you thought 
about it this way? 

379
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,720
I genuinely go, I don't know, 
have I, you know, like and then 

380
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,320
I, I, I try my best to anyway, 
not always successful. 

381
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,040
I love that. 
Yeah, I love that. 

382
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,240
It's the same. 
Same here. 

383
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,000
I think sometimes we don't 
realise the things that are so 

384
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,320
attached to our sense of being 
or our identity and being able 

385
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,000
to reflect on that and challenge
ourselves. 

386
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,680
It's hard. 
It's hard. 

387
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,720
We like to know who we are. 
Yeah, and, and the, and the 

388
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,800
human. 
So a lot of my job is dealing 

389
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,640
with people, not dogs. 
And what I've found with with 

390
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:41,200
people is people have a tendency
to stick to what they know and 

391
00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:45,680
the, and the even even when that
thing is proving to be 

392
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,520
detrimental to limit points. 
And, and I think that that that 

393
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,000
ideological consumption 
sometimes can really hold 

394
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,320
anyone, not just dog trainers, 
but anyone back. 

395
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,120
So I think it's important. 
Yeah, it's so interesting you 

396
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,280
say that because I recently saw 
a maybe a psychologist, it could

397
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,000
have been and it really 
resonated with me what she was 

398
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,960
saying. 
She was saying that resilience, 

399
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,880
she was asking people what is 
resilience, and nobody could 

400
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,800
really give her an accurate 
description. 

401
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,720
I think I think I could give a 
good answer. 

402
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,840
Resilience is, if I'm going to 
speak about it broadly from a 

403
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,040
biological standpoint, I can 
give it in a quite short answer.

404
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,480
I think resilience is the 
organism's ability to bounce 

405
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,000
back after something aversive 
happens and the time frame that 

406
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,040
that takes. 
So what for instance, when we're

407
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,280
when we're testing dogs for like
a protection dog role, we're 

408
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,720
looking for resilience. 
And so when you learn to 

409
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,960
identify it, you can it's quite 
simple really. 

410
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,680
Like if a loud bang goes off and
that population gets a bit of a 

411
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,720
fright, but then in the next 
second he's like, OK, I'm fine. 

412
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,320
That's quite a resilient puppy. 
Or if you even better than that 

413
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,080
would be allowed bang, the puppy
doesn't even blink. 

414
00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,640
It's like, I'm not arsed, you 
know. 

415
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,440
So I would say that that would 
be my definition anyway. 

416
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,640
Yeah, well, I think there's lots
of different ways to explain 

417
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,760
something, but I think you are 
correct. 

418
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,600
I would the, the definition that
I heard from this person was 

419
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,480
they said when it comes to 
identity, you have a sense of 

420
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,760
knowing and a sense of not 
knowing. 

421
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,200
And in the middle is 
uncertainty. 

422
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,840
And when you're in in the middle
and things are uncertain, that's

423
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,440
a sticky spot because people 
don't like not knowing. 

424
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,200
And so resilience is how long 
you can stay in that spot 

425
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:40,480
without wanting wanting to 
attach to either extreme. 

426
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,760
That makes sense. 
That makes and I think that the 

427
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:46,200
that sort of lens to the whole 
idea that the truth lies in the 

428
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,600
middle and more of the truth 
lies in the middle than at the 

429
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,520
extremes ever. 
And I think and I think that 

430
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,600
where you when you've got so 
when you've got 1. 

431
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,760
So for instance, the dog trading
industry you mentioned before, 

432
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,040
very polarising. 
And I think that the biggest 

433
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,960
reason for that would be the 
emotionality that is wrapped up 

434
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,760
in our dogs and how much we love
them. 

435
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,720
And, and don't get me wrong, I'm
not saying that that's a bad 

436
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,080
thing, but I'm saying that the 
predominant emotion towards our 

437
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,120
dogs is this sort of like 
unabounding love. 

438
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,200
And particularly with dogs that 
have maybe been through 

439
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,160
something where actually, if we 
look at things to maybe sort of 

440
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,840
tie it into that resilience 
point. 

441
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,920
If I, if I actually want to 
develop a dog properly, I want 

442
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,400
to develop a dog to be 
confident. 

443
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,680
And I want to develop the dog to
have an ability that when 

444
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,680
something stressful does happen,
that he understands how to deal 

445
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,440
with it instead of just reacting
in an emotion that he has no 

446
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,040
control over. 
So a very easy example that's 

447
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,920
with puppies is if I'm out and 
about and I and my puppy starts 

448
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,160
barking at something because 
it's spooked, I walk it right 

449
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,480
over to it. 
But come on, let's go see. 

450
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:51,920
And then the puppy will pull 
back. 

451
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,040
You'll be like, I don't want to 
do it. 

452
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,880
And you'll be like, no, no, no, 
come on, you'll be fine. 

453
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,600
And then the puppy realises, but
nothing's wrong here. 

454
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,720
I was being silly. 
And the puppy learns that that 

455
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,560
emotion is not always warranted 
when he thinks it's warranted. 

456
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,840
Does that make sense? 
It does make sense, yes. 

457
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,120
I'm just wondering how much of 
that is how. 

458
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,440
Firstly, how old is Puppy? 
Well, that was sort of a vague 

459
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,680
example, but I don't think to 
some, to some degree, I don't 

460
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,440
think it matters all too much. 
Now, again, I'm not saying the 

461
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,520
puppy get scared or something, 
drag it over there. 

462
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,760
That's not what I'm saying. 
What I'm saying is if I see that

463
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,720
you have a bit of a negative 
reaction towards this thing, I 

464
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,960
and and let's say it's not 
warranties, you know, it's not a

465
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,840
tiger or something. 
You know, it's not like 

466
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,200
something like horrible in the 
environment. 

467
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,120
If I see that the puppy is 
pulling back and like, I'm not 

468
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,840
sure about this, I want to show 
the puppy what the steps are to 

469
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,480
overcoming that emotion and what
the steps are never as they're 

470
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,840
never walk away from it and let 
the puppy think that that's a 

471
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,600
big scary thing and it's 
justified to be scared of it. 

472
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,080
So Maskel was very famous and 
our little dog training group 

473
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,680
when I first got him because he 
started barking at rocks, you 

474
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,200
know, at big rocks that were 
sticking out of the ground. 

475
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,880
It's just weird, just being odd,
just an odd little puppy. 

476
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,080
And if I'd played into that fear
and said that, oh, well, he's 

477
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,440
scared so I'm not going to push 
him. 

478
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,520
What what I would have got is 
probably a dog that learns to 

479
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,640
interact with the environment at
least a little bit more like 

480
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,360
that from a place of insecurity 
rather than from a place of 

481
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,040
confidence. 
Does that make sense? 

482
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:22,680
Yeah, yeah, the, yeah, I think, 
Oh, it's such a tricky thing 

483
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,520
really, isn't it? 
Because I've noticed, I've 

484
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,240
noticed recent, more recently 
than previously, that puppy 

485
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,120
breeders are handing the dogs 
over well before they're 

486
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:34,760
supposed to. 
And I'm just wondering if 

487
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,200
somebody heard that as in what 
you just shared, which is a 

488
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,120
little bit out of context 
because you work as a trainer, 

489
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,720
they might think it's OK to do 
that. 

490
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,720
Because I have taken a puppy 
course before and they have 

491
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,800
explained that there is 
something like as such as 

492
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,680
introducing micro stresses in a,
in a puppy pack. 

493
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,720
And that could be something as 
gentle and as simple. 

494
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,400
It's not like huge stress. 
It's not like you like take in, 

495
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,480
I don't know, food and placing 
it 5 kilometres away and say, 

496
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,560
oh, you go find your, you know 
what I mean? 

497
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:10,680
It's not. 
Like that, it's like, yeah, 

498
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,520
Philly. 
Philly, the micro micro little 

499
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,520
fine find this or like sniff 
because they can't see or 

500
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,880
whatever. 
I think though, I think though, 

501
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,200
with that level of nuance 
towards this kind of 

502
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,000
conversation, I think what can 
get difficult from now as a 

503
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,520
trainer, my job is to 
communicate ideas and to 

504
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,280
communicate how to handle your 
dog and how to effectively 

505
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,640
communicate the ideas that you 
want the dog to understand. 

506
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,560
All right. 
And so I also when I'm, when I'm

507
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,120
working with a dog, I don't 
think there's many contexts that

508
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,360
I would say that taking a dog 
through very small amounts of 

509
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,640
stress over a much longer period
of time is better than maybe the

510
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,680
dog went through a bit of a 
stressful session. 

511
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,520
But then realising within that 
session. 

512
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,400
So on the same session, in the 
same 10 minutes, in the same 20 

513
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,280
minutes, that that that reaction
is unwarranted. 

514
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,960
So I agree, maybe that was a 
maybe of a perhaps a brash way 

515
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,880
of saying it, but I think the 
principle still lies underneath 

516
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,400
it, which is that it wasn't that
long ago that our dogs were able

517
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,680
to be let out the door or go for
a walk around the block and let 

518
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,960
themselves back in. 
And what's happened since that 

519
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,240
point is that there has been 
this, what would you say the 

520
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:26,760
softening of dog ownership? 
Now, I, in a lot of ways, I 

521
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,000
actually really like the 
softening of dog ownership. 

522
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,680
I think we're much kinder to our
dogs. 

523
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,320
We're much more loving. 
I think that's a fantastic. 

524
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,080
And, and, and by the way, I've 
dedicated my life to dogs. 

525
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,320
I I you'll find you. 
You'll, you'll, maybe you won't 

526
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,760
find it hard because you 
obviously you've got a podcast 

527
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,840
talking about this subject, but 
in normal day-to-day life, 

528
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,720
you're going to have a hard time
finding someday Who spends more 

529
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,640
time thinking about dogs and 
loving on these dogs than me? 

530
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,200
I the question is, what is the 
question is what is truly kind 

531
00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:59,560
for the dog? 
Is it kind? 

532
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,320
Yes. 
What is an appropriate level of 

533
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:02,760
stress? 
Yeah, exactly. 

534
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,800
Now The thing is, if I take a 
puppy to a really busy 

535
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:11,840
environment when it's dead, dead
young, let's say 9 weeks, 8 

536
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,080
weeks in that region, 7 weeks in
that region, the puppy's brain 

537
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,560
isn't really do it. 
Well, the puppies brain isn't 

538
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,040
really doing anything at that 
age. 

539
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,080
And so like it's just like 
nothing between his head and 

540
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,320
it's just happening. 
Sorry to him. 

541
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,000
And that's a little bit 
different. 

542
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,560
Now there is a strong argument 
to be made that like so for 

543
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,760
instance, when when I went to 
pick mascot and the the pen that

544
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,080
these puppies were in were 
filled with things that were 

545
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,040
making loads of noise and all 
the puppies had become 

546
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,480
completely desensitised to it 
because we had a speaker playing

547
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,920
gunshots. 
We had rattle canisters on the 

548
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,760
side of the thing and the 
puppies were just playing in and

549
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,040
jumping in it and jumping out of
it. 

550
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,400
Now, obviously genetically these
are quite confident pops, but 

551
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,040
that lends to their confidence 
again, is that when something 

552
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,080
like this happens in real life 
that they have experienced that 

553
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,840
they can fall back on that they 
can go, oh, actually that's not 

554
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,680
a big deal. 
And I think the difficult 

555
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,800
language around positive 
reinforcement, punishment or 

556
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,480
correction or whatever else does
slow that that conversation down

557
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,440
because people hear stress and 
they think that the dog is like 

558
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,240
this. 
And it's like, no, there's a 

559
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,160
spectrum of stress. 
You know, like a kid to go into 

560
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,840
nursery for the first time. 
It's a great example of this. 

561
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,440
A kid going to the nursery is 
crying. 

562
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,160
I want to stay with mom. 
I absolutely don't want to do 

563
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,520
it. 
It's because of the unknown. 

564
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,880
It's because the kid doesn't 
know yet. 

565
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,960
And lo and behold, the kid goes 
through a little bit of a 

566
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,920
stressful day, but then the next
day he's a little bit more 

567
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,440
willing to go. 
And then it gets easier for the 

568
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,000
kid. 
And then the kid learns to enjoy

569
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,960
the time with his friends and 
enjoy the time and, and maybe 

570
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,520
even enjoy the stress that that 
sort of structured environment 

571
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,960
can produce. 
People need to talk about stress

572
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,640
in a much more nuanced way 
instead of it being just stress 

573
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,640
is negative. 
Stress is important. 

574
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,200
Stress builds as well as 
destroys. 

575
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,680
So we have to have A and again, 
this is where the nuance in this

576
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,080
industry has gone to have gone 
to zero. 

577
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,680
We can't have a genuine 
conversation without emotive 

578
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,360
language. 
Like the fact that I use tools 

579
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,200
in my, in my dog's training, the
fact that I'll use a slip lead, 

580
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,000
the fact that I'll use a prong 
caller is very, very contentious

581
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,160
to people. 
And the frustrating thing about 

582
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,360
that for me as well, a lot of 
the time people have never 

583
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,880
actually spent any amount of 
time figuring out what these 

584
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,320
things, what these things were 
designed for, who they were 

585
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,560
designed by. 
Amazing. 

586
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,600
I want to know. 
You know, oh, absolutely. 

587
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,920
So, well, let's start with the 
prong caller. 

588
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,480
The prong caller is probably the
easiest one. 

589
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,160
The prong caller was developed 
by a guy called Haram Springer 

590
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,800
and it was developed to reduce 
tracheal damage on working dogs.

591
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,240
It was not developed originally 
as a corrective tool. 

592
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,840
What it was designed for was 
because a lot of the police dogs

593
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,560
and a lot of the working dogs at
the time, they had slip leads or

594
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,000
they had flat collars, they were
because they were pulling and 

595
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,440
they were like police dogs 
pulling into this all the time. 

596
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,640
It was causing a lot of damage. 
And so a veterinary engineer 

597
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,200
decided to try and develop this 
collar that would distribute 

598
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,560
pressure across rounded points 
on the dog's neck. 

599
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,360
So the dog should experience 
more of a sensation when the 

600
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:11,880
dot, when the collar became 
active. 

601
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,680
And lo and behold, to this day, 
prong callers are the lead 

602
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,920
above. 
Harnesses, by the way, are the 

603
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,760
least damaging, physically 
damaging tools to, to a, to a 

604
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,840
dog to, to wear. 
You know, it's observable 

605
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,520
because, again, it is designed 
from a central plate to 

606
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,560
distribute that pressure around 
the neck. 

607
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,600
But people hear prong caller and
they think I'm stabbing the dog 

608
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,480
in the side of the neck. 
And actually, that's not at all 

609
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,000
what the prong caller is 
designed to do. 

610
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,920
So what about OK, that's 
physical. 

611
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,960
What about emotional? 
I think emotional depends on the

612
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,960
person on the tool that's 
holding the tool. 

613
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,560
You know, I think that that's 
one of the really important 

614
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,360
things about that is the most 
important thing I think about 

615
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,360
this conversation about tools I 
have spent years developing, 

616
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,800
about my ability to teach people
and learn myself with these 

617
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,440
tools. 
And if we approach it from a 

618
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,680
common sense point of view and a
fair point of view from the 

619
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:08,719
dogs, these tools can, can speed
up and make the world, speed up 

620
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,800
the training for the dog and 
make the world clearer. 

621
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,360
And I think that if I, if I'm 
able to take a few options off 

622
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,400
the table, so for instance, the 
colleague chasing cars, if I say

623
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,760
you're just not going to do 
that, that's just not allowed 

624
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,960
because the alternative would be
no, the way that I would do that

625
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,000
is in some shape or form, I 
might give the dog a correction.

626
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,880
And there might be other 
situations where I'm not going 

627
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,159
to give that dog a correction. 
But let's for the sake of this 

628
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:34,639
conversation, say that I did. 
I gave the dog a correction. 

629
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:36,760
Let's say on a little prong 
call, I gave a little pop on the

630
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,520
lead as it lunged into the 
traffic. 

631
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,239
People want to say that there 
are better ways of doing that. 

632
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,600
I did. 
I just cannot see it. 

633
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:46,280
It's not observable like there 
is. 

634
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,880
If I create an aversion to 
something and then the dog shows

635
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,679
clarity after that and the dogs 
or the car goes by and the dogs 

636
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:54,520
may be a wee bit nervous about 
that correction. 

637
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,920
But then it's up to me after 
that to help the dog rebelled 

638
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:02,560
and come back and be like, OK, I
can do this. 

639
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,360
And it's and again, it's feeding
back into the point about 

640
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,160
resilience as that if I tell you
no and you fold into a puddle on

641
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,440
the ground, well, that's not a 
way that a good way of 

642
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,440
approaching life. 
You have to show some 

643
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,680
resilience. 
You have to show some 

644
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,960
confidence. 
You have to show some ability to

645
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:19,720
bounce back from these things 
because the world is going to 

646
00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:23,040
give you that at some point. 
And I think if I expose my dog 

647
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,800
to these stressors or these 
corrections or punishments, have

648
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,040
whatever words you'd like to 
use. 

649
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,240
And if I teach the dog what 
these things mean that I mean 

650
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:32,880
that I, that means no, it means 
come back to me. 

651
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,760
And if you come back to me, 
there's no pressure. 

652
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:40,720
Good boy, well done, super job. 
That as opposed to if I, if I 

653
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:43,440
teach the dog like that or if I 
opposed to, I just put a prong 

654
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,560
collar on a dog, a dog lunges at
the car and I go, fine, that's 

655
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,120
unethical. 
That's not fair on the dog. 

656
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,080
But I, if I show the dog what I 
expect and then the dog tries it

657
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,600
again, I go, that's bad for your
health. 

658
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,080
And, and I think we've got to a 
point in society where erecting 

659
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,080
a dog for lunging at traffic is 
controversial. 

660
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,440
And I think that that's insane. 
I, I truly do. 

661
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,800
I I truly do. 
It's a tricky 1 isn't it? 

662
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,560
Because if you think about it, 
it's, you know it. 

663
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,520
We live in a human centric world
with working dogs in urban 

664
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,520
environments and then these dogs
get punished for showing innate 

665
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,640
behaviours that they were born 
with. 

666
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,400
Absolutely. 
So. 

667
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,880
So I guess that's, I guess 
that's challenging. 

668
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,360
That's what I grapple with, 
especially when it comes to 

669
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:31,680
aversives. 
You know what I mean? 

670
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,880
Yeah. 
The only the only place where I 

671
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,440
would imagine it could. 
And by the way, it feels 

672
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,120
absolutely free. 
Feel absolutely free to disagree

673
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,640
with me. 
Like I say, I enjoy a bit of 

674
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,720
pushback. 
Oh, that's, that's, that's OK. 

675
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:49,360
I think, I think it's a delicate
conversation to have. 

676
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,120
And The thing is, without 
wanting to be overly diplomatic 

677
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,800
about it, I'm just going to come
right out and say I'm, I'm, you 

678
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,200
know, I'm pro positive 
reinforcement. 

679
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,120
However, so am I yes. 
OK, this is great because I was 

680
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,760
going to ask you actually, you, 
you were, you were saying you 

681
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,320
use a verse. 
So what I would like to 

682
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,600
understand is when it comes to 
the world of dog training, what 

683
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,560
are the different types? 
I just don't know what they are.

684
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,120
I've heard of R Plus, I've heard
of positive reinforcement. 

685
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,880
I've heard of balance. 
I don't know what that means. 

686
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,160
Could you maybe explain to me 
and from your perspective, what 

687
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,800
are the different types and what
do they mean? 

688
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,320
It's a good question, but I 
think it's a trap. 

689
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:34,880
Not necessarily you're setting a
trap. 

690
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,520
For me, I think the trap that 
people fall into with these 

691
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,440
categories is that they are. 
They're simply ways of us 

692
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,160
quantifying to have a person 
approaches something. 

693
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,000
So like I have many friends in 
this industry that are force 

694
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,040
free and equally I have many 
balance trainers that don't like

695
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,360
me, the R Plus and the force the
force free movement. 

696
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,200
The R Plus is sort of synonymous
with force free movement, at 

697
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,880
least from my perspective. 
But the R Plus movement is 

698
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,680
effectively that dogs not only 
don't need to be punished to 

699
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,680
learn to develop their control 
potential, as it were, but 

700
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,680
actually that it's detrimental. 
And the only way that the dog or

701
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,080
the best way that the dog learns
or the kindest way that the dog 

702
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,000
always learns is solely through 
some form of positive 

703
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,320
reinforcement, whether it be 
food or toy or whatever it might

704
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,600
be. 
Now, what a lot of people don't 

705
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,760
appreciate, I don't think is 
just how much time I spend 

706
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,240
getting good at positive 
reinforcement and how much 

707
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:28,840
knowledge. 
And I actually see more 

708
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,720
effective and more nuanced and 
more, what would you say, more 

709
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,440
complicated uses of positive 
reinforcement from the balanced 

710
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,280
community. 
And you know what? 

711
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,680
Like as a very easy example, a 
very easy concept for people to 

712
00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:47,800
maybe wrap their head around as 
you do not decide what is 

713
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,040
positively reinforcing to your 
dog, ever. 

714
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,040
Your dog decides what's 
positively reinforcing to your 

715
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,120
dog. 
And just like you don't decide 

716
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,800
what's punishing to your dog, 
the dog decides what's punishing

717
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,920
to it. 
And the trickiest part about 

718
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,120
this is that I think when you 
went when, when the industry 

719
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,560
sort of blurts out that no dog 
needs to ever be told and 

720
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:11,000
corrected for something that 
they might have done. 

721
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,960
I think they neglect a lot of 
these genetics in these dogs. 

722
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,480
And they, and it's usually that 
they just simply have not had a 

723
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,320
lot of experience with them. 
Because if they did, if I was to

724
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,600
give the average person my 
Rottweiler, it probably wouldn't

725
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,960
go too well because he's a very 
intense working dog and is not 

726
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,920
designed to be chill on the 
couch sort of pet. 

727
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,120
Now, that doesn't mean to say 
that he can't do that with me, 

728
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,000
but that took years of building 
up a good relationship with that

729
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,800
dog and rapport and trust and 
consistency. 

730
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,840
That involved punishment that 
involved me taking a few things 

731
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,480
off the table for the dog. 
Because when you have those 

732
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,360
powerful, powerful dogs, your 
county car shows, your 

733
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,960
Rottweilers, your German 
shepherds, your Mullen wise, 

734
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,240
whatever it might be. 
Now, there's definitely 

735
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:55,400
exceptions to this. 
You get very, very soft Malin 

736
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,520
wise and you get very, very 
intense Malin wise. 

737
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,040
And depending on which breeding 
pool you pick from, you're going

738
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,560
to get different results with 
regards to how you can train 

739
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,400
those dogs. 
Like I for instance, know that 

740
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,560
Joe Rosie is a very famous 
Fantastic Four free trainer. 

741
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,000
She has a Malinois, but the 
Malinois you can see the 

742
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,440
Malinois has a love. 
She's a she's a nice dog. 

743
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,000
She's very, very like. 
I don't, I don't mean to take 

744
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,920
anything away because her 
training is fantastic. 

745
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,800
I'm not, I'm not taking anything
away, but the character of her 

746
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,840
dog is conducive with her method
as what I would say that's 

747
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,480
probably the best way to 
describe it. 

748
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,000
I think when the character 
starts changing a lot and maybe 

749
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,280
you've got a very 
confrontational character or a 

750
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,320
character that has his own ideas
about what training should be. 

751
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,360
I think that you have to have a 
real honest conversation. 

752
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,440
Sometimes I have a a 55K woman 
bring me a 50K dog and I have to

753
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,720
give that woman something that 
gives her some physical control 

754
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:48,240
back because the alternative is 
that she gets dragged around and

755
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:50,960
the dog doesn't get taken out 
and there's no nuance for that 

756
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,360
position. 
Well, I would argue, why have 

757
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,240
the dog in the first place? 
So would I, so would I 

758
00:40:58,240 --> 00:40:59,920
Absolutely, absolutely. 
So would I. 

759
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:01,840
That would be my first argument,
believe me. 

760
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,600
But if that is the position that
we're in and that's the client 

761
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,480
that's come through my door, I 
have to help them. 

762
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,840
Like that's like that's what 
they're paying me to do. 

763
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,800
I'm not like a lot of trainers 
might feel like it's their place

764
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,400
when a client comes in to go. 
You shouldn't have this dog. 

765
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,640
I've maybe said that twice in my
career to somebody to their 

766
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,760
face, like straight away. 
And it's because just flat out 

767
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,800
one of them was an 82 year old 
woman who had had a stroke later

768
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,080
early in her life and she had 
bought a cattle bred collie. 

769
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,840
And I'm just, I just said to 
her, listen, you just cannot do 

770
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,040
this to this dog. 
You're going to make him 

771
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,160
neurotic. 
You have to put this dog into a 

772
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,480
working role, put this dog into 
some form of work. 

773
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,760
And she didn't want to hear it. 
That dog has now been put to 

774
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:43,400
sleep. 
So like, I, I think it gets 

775
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,600
difficult for people around the 
emotional language of correction

776
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,240
and punishment because they have
an emotional reaction to it. 

777
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:52,240
They have a visceral like, oh, I
don't like the sound of that. 

778
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,240
And I think that that that major
is actually what creates the 

779
00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:58,240
opinion. 
And I think that if you'd spent 

780
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,680
time with people who understand 
punishment and the effective 

781
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,320
moral and ethical use of it and 
training, they would change 

782
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,760
their mind pretty quickly. 
Do you get more challenging dogs

783
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,640
from the working dogs that are 
frustrated or do you get those 

784
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,200
more challenging cases from, you
know, I don't know, Labradors 

785
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,680
and golden? 
Treaties. 

786
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,240
And smaller dogs. 
I hate to sound like a 

787
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:24,560
politician, but it really does 
depend. 

788
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,440
An easy example, if I get a 
proper work in line Labrador, 

789
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,360
maybe like a Drake's head 
Labrador but a creme de la creme

790
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,160
of Labradors, that dog, if it is
left unfulfilled, if the 

791
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,960
genetics of that dog are left at
a point where they have a lot of

792
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,000
energy and tension left at the 
end of the day, that could turn 

793
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,080
into things like resource garden
with Labradors. 

794
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,440
That's actually quite common. 
But then equally, if you've got 

795
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,800
a shoreline lab that has been 
bred for the shore ring, then 

796
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,400
that's bred to be touched and 
that's bred to be stable and 

797
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,600
that's bred to be pretty slow 
down and like pretty steady as a

798
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,000
dog. 
And this is where pet owners 

799
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,360
really should consider the 
genetics that they're buying and

800
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:03,760
that. 
And, and in my opinion, there's 

801
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,960
just, there's nowhere near 
enough education on this. 

802
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,640
But the people buying dogs that 
they maybe like the look of or 

803
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,960
like the sound of, like the idea
of. 

804
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,160
But I can guarantee that This is
why the rescues in this country 

805
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,520
are completely filled. 
There's many reasons in my 

806
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:20,600
opinion, why the rescues are 
filled. 

807
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:27,240
But yeah, I just, I think the 
whole difficulty was saying, OK,

808
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:28,800
is it more this breed or that 
breed? 

809
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,000
I think it's more case by case. 
You know, more often than not, 

810
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,200
you're going to see more 
problematic behaviours with 

811
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:36,800
working dogs that are in pet 
homes. 

812
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,120
More often than not, with 
regards to like dogs that are 

813
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,400
sort of designed to be pets, 
you're obviously not going to 

814
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,760
get them as much. 
And this is where people need to

815
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,320
understand that just because you
might have owned dogs for a long

816
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,040
period of time, like I've driven
a car for a long period of time,

817
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,280
it doesn't make me a mechanic, 
you know, And I think that 

818
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,800
that's really important for 
people to understand is that 

819
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,440
yes, you might have experience 
with your dogs, but I've worked 

820
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,120
more dogs this week than you 
have your entire life. 

821
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,560
And, and I think that and that's
not to maybe that's only just 

822
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,520
slightly abrasive, but maybe the
Scottish accent to be fair. 

823
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,240
Well, you've got, you've got 
more, yeah, you've got more 

824
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:19,200
exposure to a variety of 
different types of dog 

825
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,520
personalities, breed types. 
Exactly this. 

826
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:27,080
And I think when the one of the 
things that I think people could

827
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,840
really do with focusing on with 
dogs is assuming that they don't

828
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,960
have the answer. 
Because a lot of people assume 

829
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,760
that they do have an answer or 
they at least have a guess, a 

830
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,480
good guess as to what's going on
with their dogs. 

831
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,400
And I would say and 90%, maybe 
not 90, that's perhaps a little 

832
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,080
bit to it. 
Maybe about 75% of cases you're 

833
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,160
wrong and it's that the dog is 
actually in a maybe kicking off 

834
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,560
or pulling for completely 
different reasons than you, what

835
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,640
you think it is. 
And because of that, the way 

836
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,680
that you're approaching that 
problem is starting in 

837
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,840
completely the wrong place. 
So you'll never actually make 

838
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,600
any progress with the dog 
because you're starting a start 

839
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,920
line that is not the rate that 
isn't the start line of your 

840
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,120
race, if that makes sense. 
So how could owners get closer 

841
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:15,600
to the most accurate starting 
point of what their challenges 

842
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,280
might be? 
I think research is #1 now 

843
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,400
research is a very broad term I 
realise, and maybe a perhaps a 

844
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,600
bit vague, but let's say you 
have a dog that's more aligned 

845
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,560
with a working genetic or a 
working standard of a dog. 

846
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,480
Then you want to find a trainer 
that has experience and evidence

847
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,200
that they can actually deal with
these dogs and evidence that 

848
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,040
they can handle them. 
One of the really unfortunate 

849
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,480
things that I see from from the 
other side of the pond, from the

850
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,320
force free side of the pond is a
well, a lack of willingness to 

851
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,120
even touch these dogs. 
You know, they'll, they'll train

852
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,400
them from a distance. 
And I, and I always say to 

853
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,440
people like, how do you expect 
to get to know a dog and 

854
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,440
actually truly help that dog if 
you don't take their lead? 

855
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,520
And if that dog really wants to 
hurt you, as a dog trainer, you 

856
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,960
should be qualified enough to 
take that dog's lead and, and 

857
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,520
handle it for the dog and then 
produce a good outcome for the 

858
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,400
dog after it. 
Or at least that should be what 

859
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,200
you're aiming at as a dog 
trainer. 

860
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,880
You know, but I don't, I don't 
see that. 

861
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,080
What was your visual? 
Question No, no, that's OK. 

862
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,280
I'm flip flopping all over the 
place. 

863
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,600
I'm curious because this podcast
is meant to be about reflection 

864
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,400
and I'm wondering why. 
So we've got things like breed 

865
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,560
specific legislation causing a 
whole host of problems for a 

866
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,560
whole host of people around the 
country. 

867
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,280
And then we live in urban 
environments and we, you know, 

868
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:42,720
buy, tend to buy, you know, 
working dogs and expect them to 

869
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,400
survive and thrive in an urban 
environment. 

870
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,640
I'd love to understand from your
perspective and your experience,

871
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:55,520
why do people buy these dogs? 
If I could answer that one, I 

872
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,280
think I'd, I think I'd have AI 
think I'd be able to put my head

873
00:46:58,280 --> 00:46:59,520
on the pillow a bit easier at 
night. 

874
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,640
So back in it, So 100 years ago,
the only reason that you would 

875
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,120
buy a dog is if you had a job 
for it to do, if you had 

876
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,360
something for it to do. 
And what happens when you buy an

877
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,560
animal and that and that happens
after that is that the life that

878
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,280
that animal lives is in 
alignment with the job that it's

879
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,640
been bought to do. 
And so the, the dog naturally 

880
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,120
has purpose. 
The dog has a reason to get out 

881
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,200
of its bed in the morning and 
actually go and do something 

882
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,760
with its with its owner. 
Yeah, same as us. 

883
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,560
We need the same. 
Precisely the same, precisely 

884
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,080
the same. 
It's a mammalian requirement. 

885
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:30,880
It's not just dog or human, It's
mammalian. 

886
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,920
We have, we have to have a 
reason to be moving, whether 

887
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,680
that be food, shell or 
procreation, whatever it might 

888
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:43,000
be, resources, whatever it might
be the but the, the, the purpose

889
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,720
structures the dog's life. 
So what it does is it puts 

890
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:47,880
things, it takes things off the 
table a little bit. 

891
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,960
It says, OK, if I'm going to buy
you as a guard dog for this 

892
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,080
junkyard, let's say as a, as a 
easy example, then that is the 

893
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,280
parameter of your life. 
Now I'm not saying that that 

894
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,200
couldn't that that's a good 
thing to do to a dog, but at 

895
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,360
least the dog has a 
comprehension and they've 

896
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,040
obviously bought that dog 
because that's the type of dog 

897
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,240
that will deal with somebody 
coming into a junkyard. 

898
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,240
And that dog now is being told 
to sit in a puppy class next to 

899
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:15,160
17 cavapatters and be told give 
us a paw. 

900
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,120
It's just not it's not fair on 
the animal. 

901
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,240
It's not fair on the people that
own the animal because they're 

902
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:22,200
being misinformed about what 
these dogs need. 

903
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,480
As you're a current MY, my 
general thing with with these 

904
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,640
classes is that if everyone is 
getting the same advice and you 

905
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,440
look around and you see a bunch 
of different dogs, that's 

906
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,520
immediately a huge red flag. 
If everyone has been told to do 

907
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,080
the same things as one another, 
massive red flag. 

908
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,240
That just shows a lack of 
flexibility, a lack of ability 

909
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:43,000
to read the character 
individually. 

910
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,360
And I, I actually forgot what 
the question was. 

911
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,600
Again, I'm so sorry. 
But it's more more about why? 

912
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,160
Why do people, why do people buy
these dogs when they are not fit

913
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,600
for purpose in the environment 
that they will be? 

914
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,920
Sometimes it's ego. 
So I think sometimes it can be 

915
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,760
Eagle. 
You know, I've bumped into quite

916
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,000
a few people who because I train
high, drive quite intense dogs a

917
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,320
lot, they buy a Malinois and 
they expect me just to be their 

918
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,280
best friend. 
And actually they've bought this

919
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,440
Malinois because they watched 
John Wick and they liked it and 

920
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,080
John Wick and they have no idea 
what a Malinois is and what a 

921
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,280
Malinois requires. 
Those are the worst. 

922
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,400
Kind of like those are the 
people that I will actually turn

923
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,080
away because a lot the argument 
of, oh, you know, you could help

924
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,960
them if you brought them on. 
They don't a lot of these people

925
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,320
in order to learn something and 
like how to raise a Malinois, 

926
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,200
you have to do it on purpose and
and you cannot do it if you're 

927
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,000
starting from now again, maybe 
people will be able to change 

928
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,880
their minds over time. 
Fine, but I won't. 

929
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,280
I will not make that. 
I will not make that dog what 

930
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,280
you want it to be. 
I will not tell your 3000 mile 

931
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,520
an hour working dog to slow down
because that's not what he's 

932
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,360
bred to do and that's not who he
is. 

933
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,960
And a lot of trainers, well, and
that's and that's that are a lot

934
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,160
of trainers will ascribe the 
same character traits to a 

935
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,840
Cavapoo as to that dog, and 
that's unfair. 

936
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,280
And that's really, truly unfair 
on that dog, you know? 

937
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,440
Yeah. 
Why do you think trainers tend 

938
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,160
to take on those cases knowing 
knowing that? 

939
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:12,360
They pay the bills. 
You know. 

940
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,880
They pay the bills like, like I,
I wish I had a, a more 

941
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,600
politically correct answer, but 
like genuinely speaking, the, 

942
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,240
the vast majority, unless 
you're, unless you're a bit 

943
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:24,480
deeper into this game and you 
can start to be a bit more picky

944
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,840
about who you work with. 
The the first year of you become

945
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,080
an adult trainer after five 
years of being smashed up in 

946
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,560
rescues and then and all kinds 
of stuff. 

947
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,600
The first year is you just 
taking on cases that are 

948
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,280
probably not going to go as far 
as you'd like them to go because

949
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,880
the people are not committed to 
the idea of actually training 

950
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,560
the dog. 
They want to fix a problem. 

951
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,720
And if we're talking about 
reflection in this episode, 

952
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:48,040
that's actually something that 
people should really, really, in

953
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,280
my opinion, reflect on is that 
if you have a problem with your 

954
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,560
dog and you're constantly taking
the dog out, trying to fix the 

955
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,840
problem all the time. 
It's a really famous quote about

956
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,000
downhill skiing. 
And it's the coaches. 

957
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,920
Tell them don't look at the 
fucking trees, because you go 

958
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,680
into what you look at and when 
you focus on the problem, the 

959
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,760
problem becomes naturally bigger
and it becomes a more 

960
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,760
encompassing part of your dog's 
personality until all some they 

961
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,880
can see when they take the dog 
outside as the dog's behavioural

962
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,480
problem. 
Yeah, you have to. 

963
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,320
Which aren't doing that. 
No, Well, well, it depends. 

964
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,320
Like you know, you're going to 
have cases where the dog is 

965
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,880
aggressing because it wants to 
be aggressive, it wants to be 

966
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,080
powerful. 
My press I can audio is a very 

967
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,640
good example of this. 
This dog enjoys and is very 

968
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,880
reinforced by controlling thing 
and controlling people and if he

969
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,720
can bully you and influence your
behaviour a bit through a better

970
00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:41,960
force, then he'll be cheeky and 
he'll try these things and he 

971
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:43,800
enjoys that from an internal 
place. 

972
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,880
So that is a problem. 
That is something that he's got 

973
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:47,160
to know. 
Hey bro, you can't believe 

974
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:48,400
people. 
It's just not allowed. 

975
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,800
How do you know that? 
Because I see how he interacts 

976
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,840
with new people and I see how he
interacts with people who you 

977
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:56,600
understand. 
So he interacts with. 

978
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,480
A very good example would be as 
let's say you're in this room 

979
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,440
now and I let dude come in, he'd
walk up to you like a big puppy 

980
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:05,880
and he would give you the side 
of his body, you'd give him a 

981
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:07,800
scratch. 
He'd maybe walk away from you 

982
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,800
again. 
And you would go to leave the 

983
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,760
room or something like that. 
And he'd be like, no. 

984
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:15,400
And he'd go in front of you and 
he'd push you back a little bit.

985
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,160
Now at this point, and The thing
is, if you went no, no, get out 

986
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,920
of my way, he'd you'd have a 
little bit of a row with you. 

987
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,520
You'd have a little bit of like,
you're not going to push me out 

988
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:24,920
the way. 
And that's the kind of dog he 

989
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,200
is. 
Know what that dog needs and his

990
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,600
life as somebody to be 
accountable to that is not 

991
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,880
himself. 
And so when I when he let's say 

992
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,560
that was to happen if I was to 
go dude, no, he understands that

993
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,120
no is followed by a consequence 
unless there is a change of 

994
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:41,960
behaviour. 
And so that's what I mean with 

995
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:46,920
the proper conditioning and 
application of punishment, 

996
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,440
that's what it should look like 
is I go no, and my dog goes, oh,

997
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,920
I'm OK, I'm not going to mess 
around with that because it's 

998
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,560
historically not being worth 
messing around with. 

999
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,440
And dude understands that now 
and he knows where the 

1000
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,560
boundaries of these behaviours 
with other people are. 

1001
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,480
But I watch how he interacts 
with people he likes and people 

1002
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,080
he's testing. 
That's how I learn. 

1003
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,760
That's the word. 
Do you, do you live in in the 

1004
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,600
countryside? 
No, live in the middle of 

1005
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,280
Blackpool. 
Is it OK? 

1006
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,480
OK, is it? 
I'm not goading you in any way, 

1007
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:16,680
but no. 
No, no. 

1008
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,520
No an environment for your dog. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1009
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,080
So, OK, I think a lot of people 
when they think about taking 

1010
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,720
their dog outside, they think 
about going on a walk with the 

1011
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:27,560
dog. 
I don't really do that with my 

1012
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:29,760
dogs. 
If I go outside with my dogs, I 

1013
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,040
go outside and we have a purpose
driven session. 

1014
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,880
So we have a session that is 
designed to fulfil the needs and

1015
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,200
the requirements of my dogs. 
Whether that be we're going to 

1016
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,160
put you on a back tie and you 
can bark and you can be loud and

1017
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,360
we're going to throw this tug 
around and you can bite the tug.

1018
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,520
Or whether that be that you're 
going to concentrate on 

1019
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,720
obedience for the next 15 
minutes and we're going to keep 

1020
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:50,960
that really reinforcing and make
you feel like a game. 

1021
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,360
Or whether it be that we're 
going to go track and we're 

1022
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,240
going to go and we're going to 
go very sort of meditate with 

1023
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,840
tracking for dogs, so we're 
gonna go do that. 

1024
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:00,400
And that requires a different 
headspace. 

1025
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,720
So the question is not 
necessarily where do you live 

1026
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:06,880
with the dog, The question is 
more what are you willing to do 

1027
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,800
to fulfil the dogs needs in 
spite of where you live, in 

1028
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,960
spite of your environment? 
You know, my dogs go to places 

1029
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,680
that I know that is good for 
them to train, that they get 

1030
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,920
exposure to loads of things and 
that they can interact with the 

1031
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:20,800
environment in a lot of ways 
safely. 

1032
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,200
And on top of that, my dogs 
fundamentally know that if we go

1033
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,200
out with dad, me and dad are 
doing something together. 

1034
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,240
And that that concept is 
something that I think a lot 

1035
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:32,840
more people should focus on with
their dogs instead of just 

1036
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:34,520
aimlessly walking in a straight 
line. 

1037
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,200
Yeah. 
So quality, not quantity that 

1038
00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:41,200
people tend to think of, you 
know, be having, having dogs, 

1039
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,320
taking them for walks as that 
being the only requirement 

1040
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:45,960
really kind of just exhaust 
them. 

1041
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,520
Run, run, run, run, run. 
You know, come back home. 

1042
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:50,680
That's it. 
Jobs done. 

1043
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,280
The easiest way to make an 
argument against this I so this 

1044
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,280
is a human thing. 
This is a human construct. 

1045
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,200
This is not a dog thing. 
There's there's no animal, 

1046
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:02,360
there's no predator on this 
planet that wakes up and says 

1047
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,240
I'm just going to go for a walk 
for no reason. 

1048
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,040
They're spending calories when 
they don't, you know, like it 

1049
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,120
just doesn't happen. 
Like they're spending calories 

1050
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:10,400
where they don't need to spend 
calories. 

1051
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,080
And so when my dogs come out 
with their, even when my dogs 

1052
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:17,040
come out with their crate, their
assumption is what we doing that

1053
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:20,200
and that eagerness is something 
I get complimented on quite a 

1054
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,520
lot from people watching my 
videos or people seeing me 

1055
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:24,680
training person. 
They say, Oh my God, your dogs 

1056
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,000
are so committed. 
Your dogs are like so happy 

1057
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,000
tongues hanging out the side of 
their mouth and these sorts of 

1058
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:30,960
thing. 
And it's because the there's 

1059
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:32,960
clear boundaries around the 
behaviour, but also the 

1060
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,040
behaviour is so valuable. 
The behaviour of engaging with 

1061
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,680
with with me as the handler is 
so valuable to these dogs. 

1062
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:41,920
And This is why people who get 
caught up in punishment. 

1063
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,160
Oh, you're cruel if you use this
tool. 

1064
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,800
It's like, well, look at my dog.
My the dog is expressing how 

1065
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,600
happy he is and every video that
you could possibly find of this 

1066
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,320
dog. 
And yet your ideological 

1067
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,200
position will not allow you to 
move even an inch to the point 

1068
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,320
where you say that maybe some 
context, these tools are 

1069
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,440
necessary or in fact beneficial 
to the dog, You know? 

1070
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:02,800
Yeah. 
And I think that's an 

1071
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:04,640
interesting conversation. 
It is an interesting 

1072
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:06,120
conversation. 
I think, you know, because I 

1073
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,920
have to, I have to question my 
own biases as well, my own 

1074
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,000
inherited beliefs. 
I grew up in South Africa and 

1075
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:13,680
it's prong collars are quite 
common. 

1076
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:17,560
I think E collars are quite new 
ish. 

1077
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:22,240
Relatively, relatively relative.
Yeah, but but I, you know, prong

1078
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:27,600
collars was a thing and it's a 
way, as far as I understood it, 

1079
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:32,440
to retain control over your 
beast, your animal for a couple 

1080
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,440
of words. 
Probably, probably in South 

1081
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,400
Africa, probably big powerful 
Borbels. 

1082
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,400
You know, our dogs are that dogs
are that description. 

1083
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,080
And so this is the thing like, 
so we have people, No, I don't, 

1084
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,520
I'm not going to call any names 
out, but we have many big names 

1085
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,400
in the dog fainting industry 
that will come on to public 

1086
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,760
platforms and say that these 
tools are abhorrent, These tools

1087
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,160
are cruel and just in the nature
of them. 

1088
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,320
And what they've never been 
handed over is A50 kilogramme 

1089
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,480
Borble that wants to kill people
and wants to not doing it 

1090
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,160
because he's scared, not doing 
it because he's nervous. 

1091
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:09,800
Because very quickly they would 
realise that you cannot 

1092
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:14,040
positively reinforce that dog 
into living a more stable and 

1093
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,240
safe life. 
Like the dog needs some 

1094
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:18,760
boundaries. 
The dog needs to be told, hey, 

1095
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,120
this is where that boundary is 
and you can't cross it, bro, 

1096
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,400
you're too powerful. 
You know, think about it like 

1097
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:25,520
Mike Tyson. 
That's a boy. 

1098
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,760
A good way of putting it. 
Mike Tyson is a bet. 

1099
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,280
He was a bit of a thug outside 
of boxing. 

1100
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,640
If he didn't have boxing, he's 
very, very famously being quoted

1101
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,080
as saying, if I didn't have 
boxing, I would have died. 

1102
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:37,520
I would have. 
I would have killed myself at 

1103
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:39,840
some point or another. 
The structure and the 

1104
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,640
discipline, correct. 
And the structure and the 

1105
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,840
discipline of learning how to 
use that violent urge inside of 

1106
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,720
him was actually the thing that 
saved him in the end. 

1107
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,480
And I think if, again, if we 
could have a proper conversation

1108
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,800
about these things away from 
emotional language, people would

1109
00:57:55,800 --> 00:58:01,040
find a lot of common sense. 
And that's all we have time for 

1110
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,920
this week. 
Join me again next week Thursday

1111
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,560
for Part 2. 
And in the meantime, if you have

1112
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,720
anything that you'd like to 
share or add to the 

1113
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:13,920
conversation, join us on 
Instagram, which is where I will

1114
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,040
share little snippets from our 
conversation in video form. 

1115
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,360
But yes, a gentle reminder, 
please. 

1116
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,560
Let's keep it friendly, kind, 
and open. 

1117
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:29,360
And I look forward to meeting 
you on the other side. 

1118
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,560
Until next time, have a good 
week.