1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,320 Hello and welcome to Just a Dog Podcast, the podcast for 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,360 thoughtful dog lovers and guardians. 3 00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:08,880 I am your host, Nadine. My guest today is Professor Adam 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,520 Mcclossey, one of the most respected researchers in dog 5 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,720 behaviour and cognition. He founded the Family Dog 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,360 Project in Hungary, which has shaped much of what we know now 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,400 about how dogs think and how they relate to us. 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,960 In this episode, we talk about how his work began, what science 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,280 can tell us about the minds of dogs, and why our homes, 10 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,160 cultures and expectations shape behaviour far more than we 11 00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:35,280 realise. This conversation will help you 12 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,800 to understand your own dog with fresh eyes. 13 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,800 Hi, so nice to meet you, I'm Nadine. 14 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:43,840 Hello. Nice to meet you. 15 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:45,680 Thank you for joining me on the podcast. 16 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:47,880 I'm happy to be here. OK, wonderful. 17 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,000 So Adam, I am super curious about how your journey started. 18 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,160 Firstly, you grew up in Hungary, as far as I'm aware. 19 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,480 That's true. How did your journey with dogs 20 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,800 specifically begin? My journey was very simple, how 21 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,360 it started. I was told basically to work on 22 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,560 dogs. So this is the short summary of 23 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,440 it. So I never had the dog. 24 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,440 Actually, there was no dog in our family. 25 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,480 I'm the kind of a control group, as my colleagues explain it. 26 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,440 So I can see quite objectively this word. 27 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,880 But really the idea for working on dogs came from my professor, 28 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:26,360 so Velma Shiny, who is a professor of autology in Hungary 29 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,040 the in the end of the 90s, and it worked on paradise fish. 30 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,600 This is a little aquarium fish and we were sort of happily 31 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,160 working and looking at antiprelator behaviour and 32 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,160 studying these species in various ways. 33 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,800 But then at there's a point where we decided that we want to 34 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,640 do something differently or something new. 35 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,440 So that's when he had the suggestion that let's work on 36 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,160 dogs because actually he had dogs. 37 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,720 And when he was a child, we discussed the future of our 38 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,680 research. And then this idea came up. 39 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,560 And I like challenges, so I said, OK, let's try. 40 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,280 I mean, we had no experience. It was really 30 years ago, so 41 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,600 this was 19/19/94. And there was also no literature 42 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,880 on dogs in science. So it was really a very strange 43 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,480 situation that we had no idea where to start. 44 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,520 So this is how I got into this word of dogs and I'm still 45 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,880 actually enjoying it, even being an outsider. 46 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:26,360 So, and really I'm very grateful for this, this chance because I 47 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,400 was always interested actually in animal mind. 48 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,240 So what goes on in the mind of the animals and how they sing, 49 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,600 how they behaviour, it depends on they sing. 50 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,680 So for me, better it would be another creature would not 51 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,840 really matter too much. But eventually it was a dog that 52 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,320 we started to study. So you're an ethologist. 53 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,960 What is Ethology? Yeah, so in English you this 54 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,320 word is not probably not so familiar in England or in many 55 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,720 English speaking countries. Ethology is actually a 56 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,400 continental expression, a word that could be translated like 57 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,360 studying animal behaviour. So when you see scientific 58 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,360 papers on animal behaviour, this is the scientific verse for that 59 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,480 science is actually ethology coined this word and the 60 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,000 difference because a lot of cases actually when we talk 61 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,320 about dog behaviour, you have this other science, which is 62 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,280 psychology that also works actually with talks or sometimes 63 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:20,960 with humans or as interested in this. 64 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,520 But and you have also this expression maybe animal 65 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,840 psychologist, which are not used so much now recently, but people 66 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,880 probably have some connection to that expression. 67 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,120 Actually why ethology is different because we are really 68 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,880 very closely connected to biology. 69 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,920 So and biology, the fundamentals of biology are the study of 70 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:45,120 evolution and we have this vision following Darwin to that 71 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,120 animals are having a connected in a way in time and space 72 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,040 through this evolutionary mechanisms. 73 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,200 So for us actually the dog and the study of behaviour is very 74 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,520 closely connected to the natural behaviour, what you can observe 75 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,840 in these animals. And actually the big discovery 76 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,880 was, and I think that was where this whole project really 77 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,720 started to get to shape. Then we try to argue that 78 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,760 actually the dogs are in a natural world when they are 79 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,240 living with humans and when you observe them living with humans, 80 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,800 this is quite nature for those dogs that we call family dogs. 81 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,320 Not all dogs actually being in this, but that population, that 82 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,720 community of dogs are in a nature even when we just in like 83 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,680 your case now your dog is now in the nature of dogs. 84 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,360 It's in your flat. But that doesn't matter really. 85 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,360 And what we're interested in what goes on in this natural 86 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,120 situation between a human and a dog. 87 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,320 OK. So is that like human and animal 88 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,400 bond related or specifically focused on the behaviour or 89 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,120 psychology or everything together? 90 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,880 But the interesting thing is that when we talk about an 91 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,840 environment, then the question is what is in this environment? 92 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,440 And in the human environment, there are typically humans and 93 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,080 the dogs. So when you're studying dogs, 94 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,360 you can't just take the dog isolated and investigating and 95 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,320 focusing it on the dog when we're talking about family dogs, 96 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:05,560 because there's always a human around. 97 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,440 There's no family dog without a human. 98 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,080 So it comes together, so to speak. 99 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,360 So therefore we can also say that what we are doing is 100 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,640 investigating the dog human relationship. 101 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,840 And then obviously how these quite different creatures, the 102 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:23,840 humans and the dog that have a very different original history 103 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,800 come together at some point in this story. 104 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,400 Let's say 50,000 or 30,000 years ago. 105 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,280 And then started to form this what you might call a bond or an 106 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:39,800 aliens or whatever. And they have to contribute to 107 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:41,640 that. So both the humans have to 108 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,080 accept the dog as a member of the group and also the dog had 109 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,720 to accept the human somehow as a social partner. 110 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,880 So this is what is the challenging question for us, how 111 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,200 these two living beings make this very strange group or even 112 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,480 some people might say it's a family just like for a human 113 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,400 family. I don't know if this is true or 114 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,120 not, but recently I read something that said something 115 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,760 like 80% of the world's dogs are actually free roaming dogs. 116 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:08,520 Yes. That's true. 117 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,520 Oh. OK, so so taking free roaming 118 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,720 dogs and putting them in family situations, have you have you 119 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,440 seen any data that could be used as a predictor for how 120 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,240 successful that relationship would be? 121 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,280 Well, this is a it's a good question, but you don't just 122 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:26,200 pick an animal from its environment and put it in a 123 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,600 different one. There's never really works up. 124 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,760 So you could also say that what if picking a lion and then 125 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,200 putting it into your flat and how interesting it would be. 126 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,640 I could imagine it would be very exciting to make some 127 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,920 interesting observations. Probably you wouldn't like the 128 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,240 idea actually, so the same would be with such a theory roaming 129 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,320 dog. And here the difference is that 130 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,000 some corporations of the free roaming dogs or free ranging 131 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,960 dogs that are living in that situation for many generations. 132 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,720 So that means that they have been selected for actually 133 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,080 living without the humans, but they are dogs, which means they 134 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,800 are also domesticated. So if you would take actually 135 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,640 not a or not would pick not an advert free roaming dog, but a 136 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,560 puppy taking from a litter then and put it in your flat and then 137 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,680 provide it with all kinds of socialisation experiences. 138 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,600 Then I would assume it would maybe not develop in a way that 139 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,280 you might experience with a rabbit or a golden or whatever, 140 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,200 but it would be quite close. So this means that actually dogs 141 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,440 have this potential to become a family dog and depending on the 142 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,280 the breed or the genetic makeup in general would determine how 143 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,600 far they get in on that road. And all this also on the 144 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,560 socialisation experience. So you can actually also achieve 145 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,800 quite a lot if you really socialise a wolf, a real wolf, 146 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,640 very extensively. And I know that because we did 147 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,840 some experiments with wolves and got this kind of observations 148 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,280 many years ago. But for the wolves, you really 149 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,360 need to invest 24 hour interaction and and you have to 150 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,440 be really very intensively providing the social 151 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,680 environment. And even then you never turn a 152 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,080 wolf into a dog. So that's impossible to do, but 153 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,400 you can achieve something. So this is this interaction 154 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,960 between the genetics and environment, which is actually 155 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,480 very important. So just taking a free 156 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,640 roaming.com, I think it's not a good idea, neither for the dog 157 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:18,920 nor for the family. What drives you? 158 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,440 Is it legacy? Is it curiosity? 159 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,200 What pushes you forward every day? 160 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,800 Well, this is actually complicated to answer because 161 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,000 one hand is science, so sorry, finding out what go I what I 162 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,280 said. So there's the question still 163 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,480 there. What goes on in the dog mind, 164 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,640 how we can find this out by different beings and different 165 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,080 research questions and putting the dogs in different 166 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,640 situations. So this is obviously what drives 167 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,280 me. On the other hand, if you have 168 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,920 this drive, the problem is now how to get the money for doing 169 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,720 that and how to get the especially the young scientists 170 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,480 the opportunity to get involved because for this you need money 171 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,320 and good minds, I mean, from those students and young people 172 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,760 making them interested in this. So, and I'm also very happy to 173 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,400 work in a group setting. So having lots of people around 174 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,320 and encourage each other, sort of motivate each other because 175 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,520 actually science gets can be sometimes very bored. 176 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,800 You have to repeat these experiments all over. 177 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,120 It's actually very difficult sometimes to find the devoted 178 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,840 owners would participate. So a lot of everyday issues that 179 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,840 you have to overcome by this kind of motivation. 180 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:31,800 So, but basically I think and another issue is that it may be 181 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,640 it's also a not secondary but not so important, but important. 182 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,200 Maybe the goal was over that to inform the community of dog 183 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,960 owners that they could become a better owners. 184 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,320 Don't really tell them how to train the dog, but just to give 185 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,880 them this kind of background knowledge that what what you can 186 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,120 do with your dogs. There's so many situations 187 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,360 rather than having your mobile phone and walking with your dog 188 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,480 while actually texting somebody. So, so this is what I I'm not 189 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,240 happy to see for example, so on So no one. 190 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,600 So maybe yes, helping the dogs as well a little bit to, to find 191 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,440 a better way into their communities and even to have a 192 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,560 better understanding of this relationship. 193 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,040 Because some people when we talk about bond, but you mentioned 194 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,360 this word, how this bond is actually managed, what you can 195 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,520 do, what you should do or rather avoid if you can. 196 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:27,840 So this kind of information, this is important and also 197 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,120 obviously want to support it by data. 198 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,880 So it's about research. So there is quite a lot. 199 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,200 I understand that dog specific research is fairly new in terms 200 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,600 of decades and but there is a lot of research already. 201 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,120 And what I've discovered is that that research stays very high 202 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,240 level for people who are, who understand it, who work with in 203 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:54,000 that kind of environment. How can we kind of distil those 204 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,120 bits of information, research, discoveries so that it reaches 205 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,680 everyday dog people easier? Why is this difficult? 206 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:05,000 So there's a change now. It has a good aspect and a bad 207 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,800 aspect. So the generations who have dogs 208 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,640 now in cities, usually they have no experience with how to live 209 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,960 with animals. 100 years ago, children, I mean, our 210 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,600 grandparents maybe and also probably your grandparents or 211 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,240 some maybe the grand grandparents, they grew up in a 212 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,720 village situation. Even in the cities there were a 213 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,800 different type of interaction with animals. 214 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,240 So you learned about cows and dogs and cats and all kinds of 215 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,840 creatures. So now it is different because 216 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,680 because the children are sort of isolated and then suddenly comes 217 00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:39,640 this idea, for example, during the COVID that oh, let's get a 218 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,720 dog, how exciting. But then they realise very soon 219 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,080 after the first day that it's actually, yeah, they're too 220 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,920 exciting for them. So now what you do, you get 221 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:49,680 books or you go into the Internet. 222 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:54,440 I will ask about people. So you want knowledge and that's 223 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,960 where now this is the good and the bad side, because now there 224 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,200 is a demand for the scientific knowledge. 225 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,600 Now what just asking isn't how to explain this and what we have 226 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,920 seen and actually I also doing partly now is that there are 227 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:14,280 scientists who really to offer some time to actually talking 228 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,480 about that and not talking about statistics and then complicated 229 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,920 methodological issues, but rather talking the about the 230 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,560 essence of the research. And hopefully there are people 231 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:26,160 on the other side listening to that. 232 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,320 There was a very good book, especially, I mean there are 233 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,800 like Brian Hare, for example, or names. 234 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,320 I don't come to my mind now. But anyway, so, so there are 235 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,440 some people and they publish really good books about the 236 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,120 scientific part, but it's written in a way that people can 237 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,840 understand. So there's a lot knowledge. 238 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,160 I think it's accessible to lay people who don't have so much 239 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,240 experience. And on the other side, what I 240 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,560 also see, but it's a long process that doctriners who are 241 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:56,240 really interested in this day usually have the possibility to 242 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,200 learn from scientists. I'm sometimes I'm seeing dog 243 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,320 people actually also owners should have a degree in biology. 244 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,920 So because that's what we well, actually everyone because that's 245 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,080 important for for you to understand nature because we are 246 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,280 what we have to realise that we are very much separated from 247 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,360 nature. My professor said in some 248 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,960 interview that you just imagine that if you buy a piece of meat 249 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,720 packed in the supermarket, you can imagine how many steps it 250 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,800 actually from being a pig at some point to your plate. 251 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,880 And this was not like this even 100 years ago. 252 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,200 So we have totally separated. So the only way to narrow a 253 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,080 little bit to come back in this way, you have to have this 254 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,760 biological sinking. For example, there is the 255 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,360 individual or the species much better and then environment, 256 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,480 they are complementary. So when you see a dog, you 257 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,040 should also have to see the, the whole human family. 258 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,200 You have to see the, the, the past, OK, what kind of dog it 259 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,000 is? Is it from the street and just 260 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,480 spend a few days in the shelter? Now you have it at home. 261 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,120 Is it a specific breed that was for 100 years selected for, 262 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,280 let's say being a sheepdog? So this is what you have to see. 263 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,320 But then also obviously now what is the similarity and the 264 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,360 differences? So, and the certain thing is 265 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,360 what you want the dog to prepared for. 266 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,200 So for example, what what is the problem often is that people 267 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,240 don't realise that when they have a puppy, they don't have 268 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:23,160 much time actually to prepare it for many things because compared 269 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,360 to humans, they are little bit faster. 270 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,360 So there will be others in two years and humans who have more 271 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,040 time. So if you miss the Tuesday, you 272 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,880 still have the Wednesday and the Friday there. 273 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,680 But in that case of obviously that's not like this. 274 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,400 So with the puppies, it's not a little baby who doesn't know 275 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,920 anything about the world. No, actually what the puppies is 276 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,640 doing is waiting for getting experience teaching a puppy. 277 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,200 But we have to be consequent because they have other problems 278 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,840 of forgetting things and not concert things so much. 279 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,560 But if you are, let's say teaching them only, that's OK. 280 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,000 One example, you can teach a puppy for not eating or only 281 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,600 eating for a signal. It's very easy if you do it 282 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,640 regularly in the first few weeks and then you have a dog later on 283 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,200 that you know it does it. And if you can prevent things 284 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,800 from eating too much or you can much better control the eating 285 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,000 pattern of the dog, especially with those kind of food that is 286 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,760 now there, which is very easy to eat. 287 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,480 Usually a predator, it doesn't get a pile of meat, put it on a 288 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,080 plate, so you have to dismantle it from the bone and so on. 289 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,680 OK, So that's why people I don't have this, this this holistic 290 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,680 approach and and and that's what I also sometimes miss is is 291 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,240 missing because doctors are also not telling so much about that. 292 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,240 And also another issue is that modern people actually involving 293 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,960 me as I'm including one to get results fast. 294 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,360 This is your to I think maybe you have this still this 295 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,000 expression of pill culture or something like that, that you 296 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,000 get the medicine and that you get yes, book and that's all. 297 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,960 Now it's not like that. So you know inside and you know 298 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,400 whether people take it seriously or they still want the pill, 299 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,000 then let's have it. But from the biology actually 300 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,320 doesn't follow. So that's what I want to say 301 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,640 that when they would watch really when you people watching 302 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,280 like how a wolf mother is interacting the wolf puppy and 303 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:19,600 actually what the mothers are doing today puppy, but they 304 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,640 prepare the puppy for this kind of life because they can't 305 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,880 protect the puppy later on whose mothers fight in a sense that 306 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,400 okay, stop it and they closely they mouse on the top of the 307 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,880 puppy and they stay like this. And obviously this is a 308 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,440 preparation for you have to cave, you have to be under 309 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,960 control. And they do it regularly. 310 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,200 Let's say they spend quite A and, and, but woof puppies also 311 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,920 are built for that. So they understand it relatively 312 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,440 fast, so they react, but they don't have to repeat it for 313 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,320 weeks and weeks and day after day. 314 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,280 This is how species are built that they are coming on with 315 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,520 some kind of general information about environment and then the 316 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,640 environment teaches them how they should behave or what is 317 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,359 the success for them and the social environments or mother 318 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,760 fathers other, you know, and around this is part of the 319 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,560 environment. So they have been this kind of 320 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,359 teaching. It's not really a teaching, but 321 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,560 we can interpret that. So so and then these elements 322 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,640 are more more successful. Obviously this teaching is 323 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:23,440 obviously most cases positive. So when when the cheetah is 324 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,440 teaching the young cops to how to hunt, yes, that's also 325 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,440 important. And if you have any rather bad 326 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,760 mother and not teaching bad then your cops will be having hunger 327 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,680 and eventually pie or starve. I think this is what is not 328 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,120 clear and people just arguing for philosophic reasons this 329 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,560 good or bad thing. But that's not what it's about, 330 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,560 I think. Yes, I understand. 331 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,960 That's probably one of the better explanations I've heard, 332 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,800 which is subjective because ultimately it depends on what 333 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,600 your version of success looks like. 334 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,840 You know what, what is optimal for you? 335 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,840 Are you wanting to raise the Olympic swimmer or are you 336 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,680 wanting to raise someone who's just happy in a little puddle of 337 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,120 water? Like you kind of set the 338 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,080 standard that you want for your dog. 339 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,280 And also maybe another aspect, which is also from pedagogy. 340 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,720 So I didn't say anything new. So that's very important. 341 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,840 That is, you can find this in all kinds of books that what a 342 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,520 doctrine dog, the person could actually do find out in what way 343 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,160 her dog or his dog is special. So what is really good at and 344 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,200 then they should actually go in this direction. 345 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,960 So some dogs might be interested in smelling out stuff. 346 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,040 Then you should think about, OK, how can I provide these dogs 347 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,600 with opportunity to smell going for the woods or different parts 348 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,440 of the city or whatever, or maybe other dogs are, I don't 349 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:40,680 know what they like running around. 350 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,520 So I think this is again important that like with our 351 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,760 children, although I don't really like this parallel with 352 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,920 the child and dog. But again, the swimmer example, 353 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,240 obviously as the parent should realise when this is not working 354 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,000 for the child, OK, we try and then it's, you know, she's 355 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,080 suffering or he's suffering, he doesn't like it. 356 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,440 And the trainer said, well, there will be never a good 357 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,200 swimmer. Then I say, OK, let's try 358 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,320 something different. Ask the child, OK, what do you 359 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,840 want to do as a sport with dogs is more complicated, but if you 360 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,080 watch their behaviour, if you put them in as a puppy already, 361 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,440 different situations you might find out. 362 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,960 Or if you can also get helps from others. 363 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,840 You know what your dog is really good at and then they will open 364 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,200 it in this direction and offer him and then he might be a 365 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,200 happier dog at the end. Yes. 366 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,200 So essentially and this kind of alliance with the previous 367 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,200 couple of conversations I've had in that it's better to treat the 368 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,960 dog as an individual as opposed to as a breed, as a of. 369 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:36,640 Course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 370 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,920 Yes, that's also an issue with the breeds because breeds are 371 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,120 two giving this impression that if you watch like look at the 372 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:46,080 picture of a border quarry or German Shepherd and nest, this 373 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,440 is the breed, what it actually is, but it's not. 374 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,720 So we have tested and sometimes hundreds of dogs belonging to 375 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,920 the same breed and there were huge variability differences. 376 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,320 So yeah, that's why I think each dog is an individual, just like 377 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,040 a human or yeah, anybody else actually was like kind of. 378 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,240 So that this might be a silly question, but that's shaped by 379 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,760 nature nurture. I understand that there's a lot 380 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,280 of genetics have to do do with that as well. 381 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,680 But then also this key socialisation period and then 382 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,800 also the environment, as in after the dog comes to you, 383 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,840 regardless of whether it was a puppy or you know, and then 384 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,440 later experiences in that socialisation process outside of 385 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,000 the litter. Yes, I mean everything. 386 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,560 So you don't, I mean logically you don't have two animals, 2 387 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,160 individual, 2 individuals who are the same. 388 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,320 So even if you have, I mean cloning dogs, that's also I mean 389 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,880 that don't really don't want to go in this way. 390 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,000 If you would clone a dog, some people actually do, which means 391 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,920 that there's a genetically, let's say an identical copy, 392 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,880 it's won't be the same because even usually are not the same. 393 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,720 So that's also what people are surprised that oh, this clone 394 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,360 dog is not like this dog was before 10 years ago. 395 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:01,160 Yes, because first of all, you are not the same person anymore. 396 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:02,680 I mean, you are you have changed. 397 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,280 So I don't know why people want this time travel. 398 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,120 They don't understand this very simple thing that they can't. 399 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,800 Logically, dog can't be the same. 400 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,800 Do you find in your experience over the years that you are more 401 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,600 surprised by what you learn about the animals or humans? 402 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,960 Well, I learn a lot all the time and actually I learned to, I 403 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,480 think, think about these things, ideally what I own. 404 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,360 I was enjoying this, but I am learning from observing this and 405 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,840 always I think my background in biology, ideally having this 406 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,800 evolutionary logic that also helps me to understand what's 407 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,360 going on. But obviously we have was a lot 408 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:43,280 of interesting situations. So I mean, one of our recent, it 409 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,240 was not our discovery, but we sort of rediscovered this. 410 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,960 And maybe this is a little bit of a science that we have found 411 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:55,000 some dogs that actually know or are able to learn the labels or 412 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,800 the names of objects, which actually was really exciting for 413 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,600 us because there are very few papers about individual dogs 414 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,080 many years ago. But actually, when you ask 415 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,480 scientists, I'm not saying dog owners because they believe is 416 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,400 more complex, but if you are scientists, whether dogs can 417 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,680 learn the label of objects, they would say, no, this is this is 418 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,880 not a typical ability. But then it was really 419 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,080 surprising for us to find out that there are some individuals 420 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,600 probably now we know about, let's say 60 around the whole 421 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,160 area. So it's a a limited population, 422 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,720 we who are really excelling at that. 423 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,880 So they they know the name names, let's put it this with 424 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,800 the names of their toys up to 50 or maybe sometimes something 425 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,920 close to 100, which is a fantastic ability. 426 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,360 And I'm mentioning this because maybe some of the reasoners 427 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:45,120 might actually approach us with a specific dog that that could 428 00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,440 have this kind of talent, which is very interesting. 429 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,200 So this is what again offered us every interesting Ave for 430 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,360 research that was not there actually 10 years ago. 431 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,920 But now we can really ask these dogs very specific questions. 432 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:02,880 That was actually I could even imagine, let's say many years 433 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,800 ago. Because as, let's say a typical 434 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,960 dog who has not disability, you can't just, you know, ask this 435 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,200 kind of or or in find out what goes on in their mind because 436 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,560 they don't have this ability to, to interact with us this way. 437 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,560 I've seen that, but I've always wondered whether or not that's 438 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,200 actually artificial intelligence or something like how how it's 439 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:24,680 actually possible that that don't. 440 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,240 If you do that, no, we have research group visiting them. 441 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,080 We're having tonnes of videos on the Internet. 442 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,520 We have was a lot of published studies. 443 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,520 So this, I mean I have seen with my two eyes really not so many, 444 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,240 but in Hungary we had two dogs and they are really crazy. 445 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:39,760 So I mean you wouldn't believe them. 446 00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:43,440 We had an experiment where they had to learn the name of some 447 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,680 objects in the test. And then we waited actually two 448 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,240 years. The objects were hidden 449 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,280 somewhere in the flat. And now after two years, or 450 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,720 maybe it was just the 1, I don't remember, but anyway, this is a 451 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,240 long time. They opened the box, but the 452 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,840 experimenter had to check the name of the object because we 453 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,880 totally forgot. But the dog remembered, or at 454 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,080 least some dog remembered the name of the object after two 455 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,680 years of not being able to play with it. 456 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,280 So these are really fantastic creatures and what is important 457 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,520 for them. So we don't think that they are 458 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,040 in all respects different from the rest of the dogs. 459 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,240 But with them we can really test some of those specific skills 460 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,960 that might also exist in other dogs. 461 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,640 But unfortunately we can't ask them this way so or test in this 462 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:30,720 way. So this is what is really 463 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,000 interesting. And obviously you are right, you 464 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,360 have to be careful. So there are a lot of dog skills 465 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:40,120 that are probably fake and not really valid in that sense. 466 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:44,400 And we have to be careful with the videos what people see, I 467 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,120 think, but that's the role of the research is actually to find 468 00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,240 out what is real and what is not real. 469 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,040 And these talented dogs, I mean those who we are be testing 470 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,160 actually. So they are real, real 471 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,600 creatures. And yeah, we are very happy that 472 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,000 they are around. That's fascinating because 473 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,560 obviously we control quite a lot when it comes to our dogs. 474 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,600 So if they were able to say, you know, toilet, toilet, toilet, 475 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,920 then you wouldn't need to force them to go for a walk whenever 476 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,880 you think they may or may not need one. 477 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:16,200 You know that would that would make a huge difference to dogs 478 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,680 lives well. That's that's for so that is 479 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,960 also an experiment question whether this kind of 480 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,280 communication can be enhanced between a dog and human. 481 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:26,480 In this case, actually it's really one sided. 482 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,800 So what especially in these dogs, they really understand the 483 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,320 name of an object and they pick it up and then bring it to you. 484 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:35,040 So this is the only skill what they do. 485 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,080 But we can use this for for interesting experiments. 486 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,760 What you are about for thinking about is when the dog can 487 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,720 express in a different way it's inner states or other wishes or 488 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,160 desires. Now this is more complicated 489 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,000 because so we don't think have you know any evidence for that? 490 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,600 I mean they can show it in their behaviours. 491 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,600 So if you are a good owner, you should know when the dog wants 492 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,680 to get out and and so on and when the dog wants. 493 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,680 And actually many owners are actually good at it. 494 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,880 So the owners also should become an aneatologist. 495 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,600 So an animal behaviour scientist in a way, at least with regards 496 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,760 to their own dog, that they figured out what the dog wants 497 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,480 and, and I don't think that really need, we can't change the 498 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,080 communication to a more complex level, but who knows? 499 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,960 So yeah. Yeah, OK, you've just made me 500 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,080 realise there's nuance there. So it's not just as simple as 501 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,120 here's a word and this is what it means, but also being able to 502 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:38,120 access their own inner state, their own inner world, and then 503 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:40,760 communicate that out to us. That's those are completely 504 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,720 different things. The word is the one thing and 505 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,680 then also communicating how they feel. 506 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,760 Yes, but for example, I mean, when they're barking or they 507 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,640 give acoustic sounds, this is connected to some way it 508 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,840 reflects the inner state for the dog owner actually. 509 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,120 And dog owners are there's a variation, but some are there 510 00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:58,160 very skilled. So, for example, when your dog 511 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,040 is in the garden and he's barking, I mean, some owners 512 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,520 would be quite well, quite good finding out whether there's a 513 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,880 cat, for example, that the dog is barking yet or where there is 514 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,440 a stranger coming and the dog might change the, the, the, the 515 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,800 frequency of the barking or the other aspects of the sound. 516 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,880 So actually dogs are expressing themselves, but whether they 517 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,680 would come in and tell you, OK, there is a cat, the kindergarten 518 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,200 or just saying cat, you know, in that way of like the human word. 519 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,200 So, and different ways of communicating, which would we 520 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,920 call representation of communication. 521 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,080 That's not really expected, or at least for this. 522 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,720 Even in other animals, we don't really have good evidence. 523 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,880 How have you changed over the course of your career in terms 524 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,920 of assumptions that you might have had based on what you have 525 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,920 learned? It's, it's complicated because 526 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,120 after so many years of studying them, also studying humans, we 527 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:52,280 do a lot of human work, we see the limitations. 528 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,200 So now if you would tell me an experiment, OK, but that would 529 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,320 be your idea. Let's put a dog or not, 530 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,280 basically a population of dogs and so on. 531 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,600 In an experiment, I would probably able to tell what would 532 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,760 be the result, so how they would behave, whether they would be 533 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,840 able to solve the problem or rather not. 534 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,760 So we know the limitation. And obviously this is, we call 535 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,480 it limitation, but but that's how the species evolved and 536 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,840 that's what actually provides on the level of the population a 537 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,360 good fit to the environment. It's the first same for us. 538 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:23,080 We are all not perfect creatures. 539 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,200 We have also our limitations. So in that sense, that's is but 540 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,640 just this last example with these label learning or these 541 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,480 talented dogs, there are some situations where it's 542 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,960 unexpected. So which we and we had seen. 543 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,480 OK, well, I mean, we didn't thought about that, that this is 544 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,160 possible. And this is where science in 545 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,400 general is very excited, I think, because if you are 546 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,800 motivated and open minded and and you have a interest there 547 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,720 and obviously luck as well because that's few always need, 548 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,320 then there is a chance to actually say that. 549 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,960 OK, what you have thought so far about dogs. 550 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,320 Now this is not just like that, but there are these little 551 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,600 exceptions. And we also have this in other 552 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,240 factors. So we also, I mean, one thing 553 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,160 that might be mentioned is this kind of social learning where we 554 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,120 investigated this imitation or meet active abilities in dogs, 555 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,360 which was also, I would say, such a surprise. 556 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,480 But again, after we discovered that this is a way that dogs are 557 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,680 imitating people and this could be used in various ways, 558 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,520 specifically in dog training, then we said, OK, actually it's 559 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,080 quite logical that this is there, but still nobody was 560 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,760 really discovering it. So we were the first who 561 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,800 described it and then tried to develop procedure, actually a 562 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,720 training method, which is very different from that. 563 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,200 It's called them traditional training methods that are used 564 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,440 for Venice. Basically only a social 565 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,240 interaction is taking place and still our docs are learning from 566 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,040 us something new. I imagine that that you've had 567 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,720 lots of different discoveries in your career so far, but which 568 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,320 one would you say is the one that excited you the most? 569 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,360 Well, I, I think the, this, this word learning is really 570 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,360 exciting. But one discovery, which was the 571 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,640 first one, which is now kind of a commonplace, it is that 572 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,720 attachment. So that actually the, the, the 573 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,520 dog and the human, so the, the owner and the then the dog 574 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,040 relationship is an attachment relationship. 575 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,240 This was our first, we call it the discovery, but again, it was 576 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,840 like a new concept that was introduced in this field. 577 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,160 And I always say, OK, if you don't believe me, we published 578 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,000 this paper in the 1st paper on document attachment in 1998. 579 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,840 So this is a very exact date. And then people should go to the 580 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,720 library and check out all those dog books. 581 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,120 They're probably quite a lot that before that were published 582 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,560 until 2000 and you won't find the word attachment in these 583 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,080 books. I could put a lot of money on 584 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,960 that, but now everybody's talking about this. 585 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,480 So, but actually it was a was our idea that you can 586 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,760 conceptualise this relationship as an attachment relationship. 587 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,960 And and also what I would add to that, which is also important, 588 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,520 but it's not a typical child mother attachment. 589 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,120 It's actually more typical adult adult attachment. 590 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,920 And that's really important. The dog is not a baby. 591 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,120 I'm sorry, I must say this because there are so much 592 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,600 talking about this. You can have examples, you can 593 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,920 have parallels. I also mentioned the 1:00 during 594 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,880 our discussion. But generally it's an adult 595 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,880 animal, It's his own life with his own decision making 596 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,560 abilities, with his own demands, so to speak. 597 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,160 And we should respect that, I think as a, as a dog person. 598 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,920 So, so that is important in this kind of attachment relationship 599 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,360 that we should not, you know, fix these two. 600 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,920 But there are very much similarities and how it looks 601 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,480 like the behaviour of the I think, yes, dogs are acting like 602 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,360 a three-year old or two three-year old child in this 603 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,600 situation, but there's still an adult features or an adult 604 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,000 animal. And that's what you should also 605 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:50,880 respect. Yeah. 606 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,480 But that was I think a big discovery. 607 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,360 And also not not the discovery was exciting, but that it 608 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,800 finally it got into the sinking of dog people. 609 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,480 And now when I think my daughter's a doctrine. 610 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,200 And so when she first, you know, observes what's going on, then 611 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,120 she said, OK, well, and now we have to manage your relationship 612 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,360 with your dog. And that's, you know, the 613 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,920 basically the story that we're managing the relationship, which 614 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,680 means that there is an attachment relationship is maybe 615 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,120 okay, but maybe we can adjust it a little bit just to make your 616 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,640 living together happier for you as head for the dog. 617 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,560 Yeah, so this is what I think was very interesting for us and 618 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,320 I'm still very happy to talk about attachment. 619 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,040 We could have another long discussion about oh. 620 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,040 Absolutely. I'm fascinated with attachment 621 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,400 theory. I never considered that there 622 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,480 might be a link between attachment, as in my attachment 623 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,640 style and my dog will have her own attachment style. 624 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,560 Because my understanding is that our attachment style is shaped 625 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,600 by our parents. But with dogs that are taking it 626 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,160 out of their litters, for example, prior to 12 weeks, who 627 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,440 shapes that? Is it the primary attachment 628 00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,160 after? Is it the environment? 629 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,080 Coming back to the original question, it's everything to the 630 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,400 same time and and even it's not just your we have a personality 631 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,520 as well that also influences how we react to situations. 632 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,960 So it's, it's even, you are right, the attachment style that 633 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,160 people are living in, but we have seen being among or between 634 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,320 our parents that you can also observe as a child, you had some 635 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,840 input on that. Then you are experiencing an 636 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,280 attachment to your parents, Then you have a personality that will 637 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,480 influence even if you want to have an attachment relationship 638 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,800 with your partner, for example, or the dog, you have your own 639 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,040 personality. So that all actually has 640 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,200 different layers and influence the end result. 641 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,000 And not to mention the dog's travel, which could also be 642 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,120 different because obviously if you get a dog from a shelter who 643 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,040 really is very keen on having this very intensive social 644 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:55,480 relationship and he had a much bad experience being left alone 645 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,880 and separated from humans. Again, there is a another agent 646 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,760 or another partner who has a different, let's say, 647 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,640 perspective or, or or demand for being a social relationship. 648 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,320 So if you don't want to get this dog so close, that's not what he 649 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,199 wants. He wants to get close because 650 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,760 that's what he learned. That is actually very important 651 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,000 to be close because otherwise I might lose this person again. 652 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,560 So therefore the end result is has so many factors and that's 653 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,840 where it can be OK or in most cases probably it works fine. 654 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:27,280 But sometimes, especially if there's other we mentioned at 655 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,840 the beginning malformation of the behaviour or some unwanted 656 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,800 behaviour, then very often trainer seeing that this 657 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,080 attachment or this relationship has some problems. 658 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,520 So they not focusing on the unwanted part of the problem, 659 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,920 but rather going back to the basis and investigate how this 660 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,560 relationship is is put together. And then they might inform the 661 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,800 owners to change the way of interacting with the dog and 662 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,480 might even modify the behaviour of a dog and teach the boys or 663 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,880 to react differently to different situations. 664 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,680 Fascinating that is. Honestly, that is so interesting 665 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,680 because how we interpret our dogs attachment style will 666 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,400 reveal how we respond with our attachment style. 667 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,960 Because my attachment style with another human being might be 668 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,040 different to what my dog brings out in me. 669 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,720 Bryce that's kind of like she's very, I would say anxiously 670 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:22,760 attached, let's put it that way, which makes complete sense given 671 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,280 her life experience. And I'm quite an independent 672 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,600 person. So, you know, that's really 673 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,080 interesting how we kind of how she's also changing my 674 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,520 attachment style because I'm considering her needs way more 675 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,000 than any other being I've ever considered before. 676 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,840 Yeah, Yeah. That's that's what happens. 677 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,400 So the attachment is actually has both said parties involved 678 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,400 and we we work with it together and develop a specific one that 679 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,880 is typically only for that two participants actually, yeah. 680 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,800 Wonderful. Oh my gosh, this was such a 681 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,080 lovely conversation. I've really enjoyed it and. 682 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,480 Yeah. Thank you very much for inviting 683 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,200 me. I'm happy to come again and we 684 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,080 could continue this conversation, even involving 685 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,680 other topics that might be more interesting for you. 686 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,560 What are you working on that you are really excited about now? 687 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,160 We have many projects and OK, I just to have a funny kind of 688 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,200 ending. One of our project is now to 689 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,800 actually find out how these very nice and happy family dogs react 690 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,640 to 4 legged robots. Because actually found out that 691 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,520 what will happen in the not so distant future that there will 692 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,760 be robots, let's say walking around. 693 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,080 And there are probably lots of people have seen these 4 legged 694 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,960 robots. Some people call them actually 695 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,200 dog robots. I really hate this because they 696 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,640 are not dog robots, they are 4 legged creatures so they will be 697 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,880 also appearing in different places. 698 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,800 So the question is what dog? So if you go walking with your 699 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,880 dog on the street and suddenly you see that kind of a robot 700 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,160 coming, then how would your dog react? 701 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,000 And maybe how these robots could be changed in way how they look, 702 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,040 what they do. So we are now running this kind 703 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,360 of tests where these privileged Hungarian dogs from Budapest 704 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,920 have the chance to see first time in their life this kind of 705 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,400 four legged robots and we just observe the interaction and then 706 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,600 try to learn from them. So this is one of the projects 707 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,560 that we are now starting, have have started and then working 708 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,280 on. Where can we learn more about 709 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:18,360 it? Do you publish? 710 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:19,760 Yeah. We will, I mean, this is now 711 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,000 ongoing, so we will publish soon about this and some studies. 712 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,680 Actually, I think many other researchers are working on this. 713 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,040 This is quite cool because it's more like the robots only become 714 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,520 more common in a recent 1-2 years. 715 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,960 They're quite expensive, so it's not easy to get them. 716 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,000 You also have to learn how you're controlling them and so 717 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,920 on. So it's complicated in some 718 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,040 sense, especially for for us who are not involved in the 719 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,880 technology so much. But eventually I think it will 720 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,000 be very interesting because there are some other ideas at 721 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,680 the moment that may be how these robots could work together with 722 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,680 the dog, for example. So you could have at home 4 723 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,080 legged robot and then dog and you might actually have some 724 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,880 interaction between them or cooperation and so on. 725 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,160 So there are a lot of exciting things which would do. 726 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,200 So maybe if you talk next time we talk more about the robot 727 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,360 part and let's see. Yeah, I would love that. 728 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,400 I'd love to chat about this again at some point in the 729 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:14,840 future. Okay, thank you. 730 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,840 Wait, before you go, I want to share something exciting from 731 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,880 Professor McCloskey. His team runs the G Dogs 732 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,760 project, G Standing for Genius. It is a long term scientific 733 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,040 study of dogs who can recognise the names of objects. 734 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,640 These are not dogs learning new tricks, these are rare dogs who 735 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,240 already know the names of different things and can pick 736 00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:37,880 the right one when you ask for it. 737 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,080 Think of it like this, if you can say bring ball, bring duck 738 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,320 or bring rope and your dog goes and finds that exact object from 739 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,200 a pile, not just any toy, well then your dog might be a match. 740 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,240 The team are especially keen to hear about younger dogs, but any 741 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:57,320 age can take part as long as they already know between 5:00 742 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,040 to 8:00 object names. They work with dogs from all 743 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,280 over the world and everything is done online. 744 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,280 They show you how to set up your camera at home and guide you 745 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,400 through every step. So if that sounds like your dog, 746 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,400 please check the show notes and e-mail Professor McCloskey 747 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,480 today. He will pass your message to the 748 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,880 research team and they will take it from there. 749 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,480 What an exciting project to take part in, all in the name of 750 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,920 science. Good luck.