1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,760
Once I learned about aversive so
I was like, oh, what are they 

2
00:00:02,760 --> 00:00:05,280
OK? 
The prong collars, slip leads, 

3
00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,800
anti bark devices. 
What was the other stuff? 

4
00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,600
Bark collars, E collars, anti 
barking device, electronic 

5
00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,520
training aids. 
And I just think call a spade a 

6
00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,240
spade, you know what I mean? 
It's. 

7
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,000
I'm very big on that. 
Very, very big. 

8
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:21,840
On that, yeah. 
Why? 

9
00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:25,040
It's like the language. 
And then I looked further into 

10
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,640
it. 
I realised this is a billion # 

11
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,320
industry. 
What what the the tool industry?

12
00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,240
Yeah. 
Oh yeah, big money, big money. 

13
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,040
But The thing is, there's a, 
there's an industry can be worth

14
00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:38,480
a billion pounds for many 
reasons. 

15
00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:42,760
I'd like, for instance, at being
an effective product, at being a

16
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,680
product that actually works as 
a, as a, as a good way of 

17
00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,400
looking at it, right. 
And so, OK, let's explain what 

18
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:49,840
aversive is for people who don't
know. 

19
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,520
So if I, if I use the language 
like I'm going to use an 

20
00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,920
aversive, what I mean to say is 
I'm going to do something to the

21
00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,360
dog that the dog does not enjoy.
The dog doesn't want to happen 

22
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,240
again. 
OK, now that might be in the 

23
00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:03,640
shape of a little pop on the 
lead. 

24
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,160
That might be in the shape of me
actually, like with one or two 

25
00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,120
fingers grabbing the dog's 
collar and going no and his face

26
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,840
and just sitting there with the 
dog until the dog regulates 

27
00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,440
whatever emotion has caused the 
problem in the 1st place. 

28
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,880
That could also be considered 
aversive because you're denying 

29
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,240
the dog the availability to move
around and escape that pressure.

30
00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,880
So that's going to be something 
he doesn't want to be repeated 

31
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,040
in the future. 
Now where does that place into 

32
00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,360
your training and why should 
that be a part of your training?

33
00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,360
Now with all that, again, we 
have to be a case by case. 

34
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,840
I can't say this is where you 
would use a punishment and this 

35
00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,880
is where you don't. 
It doesn't really work like 

36
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,600
that, but the debt, the clinical
definition of a punishment is 

37
00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,120
something that reduces the 
frequency of a behaviour. 

38
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,800
That's it, That is it. 
But like, so a very easy example

39
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,760
of this would be when you get in
your car and you forget to put 

40
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,840
your seat belt on, Bing, Bing, 
Bing, Bing, Bing. 

41
00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,240
That's aversive. 
That's aversive to your nervous 

42
00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,640
system. 
The tone of that is designed to 

43
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,440
go through you a little bit to 
make you put your seat belt on. 

44
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,080
That's a versive. 
That's called aversive 

45
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,720
conditioning. 
No, I don't. 

46
00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,560
I think we can all agree that 
that little sound coming on in 

47
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,600
your car, which might be me 
doing this on a prone caller. 

48
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,360
We can all agree that that sound
in your car does not cause any 

49
00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,160
emotional distress for you that 
lasts you your entire life. 

50
00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,120
Yeah, it's just annoying, like a
few minutes. 

51
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,360
It's just annoying. 
And so, but then what you do 

52
00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,360
when you get into your car next 
time is you put your seat belt 

53
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,480
on quicker. 
You learn how to avoid it. 

54
00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:37,040
And so there's no worry about 
that, that noise because you 

55
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:38,240
know how to switch it on and 
off. 

56
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,000
And so the, the, the, the 
problem that people have with 

57
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,000
aversive or the problem that 
people have an understanding 

58
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,400
what an aversive is as that 
they, they think I'm taking a 

59
00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,800
dog's head off or really fall 
yelling at the dog or pinning 

60
00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:55,880
the dog down. 
I think these are ridiculous 

61
00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,200
methods, you know, like the, the
whole domineering a dog. 

62
00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,560
If I could press 1 button on 
every single pet owner, that 

63
00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,440
would give them something that I
know about dog training. 

64
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,040
It would be the ability to be a 
teammate to constantly, no 

65
00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,520
matter what you do with your 
dog, no matter where you are, no

66
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,120
matter what you're doing, be a 
teammate. 

67
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,640
And a good teammate is not going
to let you mess up over and over

68
00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:21,240
and over again in front of them.
A good teammate is going to pull

69
00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,000
you aside and go, bro, you can't
do that. 

70
00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,800
And when, when we're able to 
have these conversations with 

71
00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,280
dogs, a very, very normal level,
conversational level, 80% of the

72
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,760
time, that's enough with most 
dogs, most especially most pet 

73
00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,160
dogs, working dogs, there's a 
very different conversation to 

74
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,200
be had. 
And it takes a long time to 

75
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,160
understand the use of aversives 
and working dogs from like a 

76
00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,600
fundamental place as in like the
scale, the scale, the difference

77
00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,200
of the scale because you're 
dealing with an MMA fighter as 

78
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,680
opposed to a kindergartner. 
You get me. 

79
00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,840
And so like, but naturally we 
can't say that these dogs are 

80
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,920
trained the same ever. 
You know, it's just, it's not 

81
00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,640
ever, ever going to be held. 
But just because a dog is more 

82
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,280
intense, it doesn't mean to say 
that you have to be more 

83
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,360
aversive. 
It just might mean to say that 

84
00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,440
there are going to be some 
things and that dog's behaviour 

85
00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,560
that you need to practise 
interrupting with something that

86
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,079
is an aversive, like chasing 
prey. 

87
00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,200
There's no clinical literature 
whatsoever, no matter how much 

88
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,280
the force free argument wants to
say that there is. 

89
00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:27,520
There is absolutely no clinical 
literature whatsoever. 

90
00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,960
This suggests that you can 
recall high prey Dr dogs away 

91
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,960
from prey without the use of an 
effective and well timed 

92
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,120
versive. 
Yes, but it's also managing the 

93
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,440
environment, surely? 
Yes, absolutely going to be 

94
00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,400
managing the environment. 
But if I am able to give my dog 

95
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,400
off lead freedom, that gives my 
dog a lot more than just a walk 

96
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,320
in a long line. 
That gives my dog the 

97
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,560
availability to discover things 
on his own. 

98
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,000
That gives my dog the 
availability to develop self 

99
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,240
regulating behaviour and to like
learn how to maybe avoid this 

100
00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:03,440
dog. 
Just looking at I'm a little bit

101
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,600
weird. 
If I'm on a long line or some 

102
00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,080
sort of lead with the dog 
constantly, the dog never really

103
00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,240
gets to develop those skills. 
And if I'm raising a dog, I want

104
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,640
the dog to develop those skills 
that are coming from him, not 

105
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,040
from me is that he can decide to
do this stuff. 

106
00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,880
And I think that yes, you can 
make an argument. 

107
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,240
You could do this on a long line
with the dog and you can manage 

108
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,080
that if you want. 
But I know, but I have a way of 

109
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,360
fixing it. 
I have a way of, I have, I have 

110
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,640
a method that works and causes 
no emotional fallout for the dog

111
00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,360
whatsoever. 
My dog believes that sheep are 

112
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,440
not to be messed with and under 
any circumstances, he knows how 

113
00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,240
to avoid that aversive. 
And so because of that, my dog 

114
00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,960
is perfectly like relaxed around
sheep because he knows this, 

115
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,520
this, this sensation on the E 
collar will only come in if I 

116
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,160
intentionally try and hurt one 
of those animals. 

117
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,000
It's very important that you 
know how to use this this 

118
00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,080
equipment though. 
Education is everything. 

119
00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,800
If I gave somebody who doesn't 
understand carpentry a bunch of 

120
00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,080
tools for carpentry, instead 
make me a table. 

121
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,280
We have the tools, but you have 
no idea how to put the table 

122
00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:10,400
together. 
So the tools are useless to you.

123
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,000
See, this is the thing, isn't 
it? 

124
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,240
Because. 
So there's two things, right? 

125
00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,720
Firstly, I'd love to understand 
how desperate people are when 

126
00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:23,040
they get to you because I'm 
assuming and could be wrong and 

127
00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,240
would love to hear your input. 
They would have tried a 

128
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,600
multitude of things before they.
Not a. 

129
00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,320
Trainer. 
Not, not, not well. 

130
00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,640
Oh, before they fired a trainer.
Yeah, absolutely. 

131
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,840
They've usually tried every tech
talk shop holy harness, 

132
00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,440
different thing in the under the
sun. 

133
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,440
And they've tried this trainer 
and they've tried that trainer. 

134
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,960
But sometimes I'll get people 
who have just bought a dog. 

135
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,520
They like my social media and 
they and they message me. 

136
00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,760
That's also just something that 
I don't always get really, 

137
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,160
really difficult cases now, 
which is, to be honest, quite 

138
00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,560
nice like. 
It's preemptively. 

139
00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,120
Yeah, sometimes. 
Sometimes. 

140
00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,400
Pre emptive is always the best 
kind of client or what you call 

141
00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:04,600
it. 
Proactive is always better than 

142
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:11,000
reactive, you know. 
I've met a couple of people who 

143
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:17,000
have had small little, you know,
animals who were barking 

144
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,400
incessantly and they were 
growing up in an environment 

145
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,960
where, you know, flat living, 
for example. 

146
00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,760
So that potentially causes 
problems with neighbours. 

147
00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,560
And what they chose to do was 
invest in these anti bark 

148
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,600
devices. 
And what I found really 

149
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,000
interesting from the 
conversation is that a, they 

150
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:41,640
didn't know how to use them, but
they still use them because they

151
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,600
they looked for a quick fix, a 
quick solution. 

152
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,880
And then secondly, what I found 
even more interesting is there 

153
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,640
was this perceived idea that the
more you spend on it, the more 

154
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,240
effective it's going to be. 
So actually these devices can be

155
00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,920
quite expensive. 
Absolutely, absolutely. 

156
00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:04,440
It's just bizarre to me. 
So I think that the fact I think

157
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,800
the difficulty is, is where does
the argument truly start and 

158
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,440
where does it truly end here? 
Because I could make a very 

159
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,880
strong argument that head 
haulers suppress dogs quite 

160
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,280
extensively. 
And, and I could, I could show 

161
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,040
you a lot of evidence for that 
as well. 

162
00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,600
And I could show you 16 years of
taking dogs off of those 

163
00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,680
equipment. 
And I'm going, Oh my God, that's

164
00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:29,400
oh, God, get off me. 
And do you know the thing that 

165
00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,520
goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
The thing that goes around here,

166
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,400
I could show you that most dogs,
again, you don't decide what's 

167
00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,120
the versus to the dog. 
The dog decides. 

168
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,320
So I could show people many, 
many dogs that I put a head 

169
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,039
holder on and the ears go back, 
head goes down. 

170
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,600
And because the pressure that 
you're putting on the dog there 

171
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,120
is across a very sensitive part 
of the dog across a very, very, 

172
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,680
there's loads of Airways, 
there's loads of blood vessels 

173
00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:53,720
in here. 
And obviously I'm sensitive a 

174
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,240
dog's nose. 
As you've got a lot and you'll 

175
00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,360
actually see a lot of dogs who 
have been on head holders for 

176
00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,560
years, they'll have an actual 
ditch in their in their muzzle. 

177
00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,360
You will not get any of that 
with an E collar or with a prong

178
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,400
caller. 
But we have none of the same 

179
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,560
emotive argument around the head
hauler. 

180
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,760
And I'm and I think to my sort 
like this thing not only 

181
00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,000
suppress these dogs because 
that's all it's designed to do 

182
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,640
really. 
It's designed for you to lead 

183
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,400
the dog like a horse. 
And if the dog pulls the dog's 

184
00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,400
head get snapped back. 
And the ironic thing about the 

185
00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,600
ironic thing about this is that 
the most frequent use of these, 

186
00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:32,760
this equipment is usually the 
people who are grand. 

187
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,520
Grand is sort of standing on 
their soapbox a little bit about

188
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,440
how good a good a person, how 
good, how good their morals are 

189
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,080
because they don't punish dogs. 
And it's like, well, actually, 

190
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,920
your dog is being punished 
currently with this thing on its

191
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,120
head. 
And we, and again, we it's 

192
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,240
because people don't actually 
understand the the nuanced 

193
00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,600
response of what is aversive. 
They just hear aversive and then

194
00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,520
they go into an emotional place 
or they hear E collar and they 

195
00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,720
go, you shock dogs and it's 
like, well, why do we not have 

196
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,640
the same outrage with cows that 
touch electric fences? 

197
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,760
You know, why are we not 
dripping these fences down? 

198
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,840
Because because they're 
effective and they actually keep

199
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,680
the cows safe. 
You know, but and, and, and 

200
00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:18,800
there's a lot more voltage going
through an electric fence than 

201
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:20,960
an E collar, But it's OK to do 
it. 

202
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,880
It's not, it's not OK to do it 
to a dog. 

203
00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,000
So there's no moral consistency 
there for me. 

204
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,400
And it and my my problem with 
the lack of aversives in a 

205
00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:34,560
training and training boils down
more to the moral inconsistency 

206
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,680
for me. 
Which will always exist because 

207
00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:40,960
it doesn't matter which way you 
slice and dice it. 

208
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,920
There's going to be a counter 
argument. 

209
00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,920
I think ultimately. 
And and this this came to light 

210
00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,120
recently where a trainer was 
teaching her trainers how to use

211
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,120
these tools. 
And the argument was leave it to

212
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,800
the individual to follow their 
morals, values, principles, 

213
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,440
etcetera, etcetera. 
And when I think about 

214
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,640
aversives, what I think about is
the multitude of people who will

215
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:11,360
A, not know how to use them 
properly, if you can, and B, 

216
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,120
people who will look for quick 
fixes and all the animals that 

217
00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,520
will suffer as a result of those
impulsive decisions and, and 

218
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,840
ignorance. 
And that's what makes me 

219
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,280
emotional. 
You know, I think it's very 

220
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,440
different if you dedicate your 
life to it and you dedicate 24 

221
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,240
hours a day and you train your 
dogs and you spend your time 

222
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,600
with them and you know what is 
too much and you stay within a 

223
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,880
healthy boundary. 
Exactly that level of stress, 

224
00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,760
that micro stress that we spoke 
about at the very beginning. 

225
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,480
But I personally wouldn't say 
that I would trust the majority 

226
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,960
of people to know how to do 
that. 

227
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,480
And I think that's, I think 
that's probably the fairest 

228
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:59,120
argument against these tools 
that I can probably truly come 

229
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:00,560
back with. 
But if I was going to come back 

230
00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:07,920
with that point, I think we get 
very quickly into like almost 

231
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,280
utilitarian ideas around who 
should own what and why. 

232
00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:15,960
Now the question is if we're 
going to regulate the, the, the 

233
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,600
use of these tools, let's say to
professionals, let's just say we

234
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,040
could press a button and do that
or who Reg who watches the 

235
00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,200
watcher is the issue. 
Now there's a million and one, 

236
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,440
there's a million and one ways 
that we can use these, these, 

237
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,080
these tools and what, but all 
I'm saying, and I'm not even 

238
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,560
necessarily saying that everyone
needs these tools or everyone 

239
00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:38,320
should have them. 
I'm just simply saying that 

240
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,720
there is a place for them in dog
training and we have to be able 

241
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,240
to have a conversation about it.
I'm, I'm fact, I think that the 

242
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,480
last E collar that I use on a 
client's dog was a Rottweiler 

243
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,960
that I worked for six months 
previous before I put the dog 

244
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,760
onto an E collar. 
Now, there are a lot of actually

245
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,920
very good arguments that would 
suggest that if the E collar was

246
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,760
to provide clear communication 
in the first session, then 

247
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,280
there's no reason to use it, to 
not use it in the first session.

248
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,800
But you have to know the dog and
you have to know how the what, 

249
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,520
how the dog is likely to 
respond. 

250
00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:12,680
You have to understand how to 
set that up. 

251
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,640
And you also have to make sure 
that the dog can recover if the 

252
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,360
dog does have a big adverse 
reaction, which by the way, a 

253
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,360
lot of the time doesn't happen. 
This is a this is a 

254
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,280
scaremongering tactic as far as 
I'm concerned with people who 

255
00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:29,200
don't understand these tools. 
They say that one experience on 

256
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,160
an E collar can scar a dog for 
life. 

257
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,040
When you when you observe what 
they're saying, it doesn't 

258
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:39,080
actually hold up any under any 
sort of logical scrutiny. 

259
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,040
It's just, and again, I'm I, 
like I said, I have many friends

260
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,840
that are on the opposite side of
this prepare be offence, but I 

261
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,320
do find that when I combat with 
them and about these ideas, the 

262
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,880
the run up to a point and then 
they don't seem to be able to 

263
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,480
articulate why past that point. 
You know, like, I'm sorry, I 

264
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:05,840
don't mean to ramble, but a very
easy one is can you show me one 

265
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,120
animal that has ever existed in 
the evolutionary history of this

266
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,400
planet that has not learned from
some form of aversive means? 

267
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:16,120
And if the answer to that 
question is no, then why is our 

268
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,560
dog any different? 
There's not a single animal, 

269
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,440
whether from the environment or 
from predators or from other 

270
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,360
members of the same species, or 
from plants or like poisonous 

271
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,360
plants, eating the wrong berries
at the wrong time. 

272
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,920
All of these things become 
genetic memory. 

273
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,440
So the dogs or the animals learn
to stay safe throughout the 

274
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,280
passing of this knowledge. 
Don't eat those berries. 

275
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,080
If that Russell in the bushes is
over there, go climb that tree. 

276
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,840
These are all aversively 
conditioned ideas. 

277
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,560
And then all of a sudden we get 
to dog training and then they 

278
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,680
don't apply whatsoever to any. 
So all of these mechanisms that 

279
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,400
have been evolved, those are 
millions and millions of years 

280
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,960
to to help the animal from to 
help the animal understand 

281
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,080
aversive conditioning have just 
suddenly. 

282
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,960
Been natural, yeah, but it seems
like those things are natural. 

283
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,040
And this kind of makes every 
individual pet owner the judge, 

284
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,320
the jury and the executioner. 
And based on how those people 

285
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,120
are feeling on a particular day 
and their level of tolerance, 

286
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,880
they then decide what is 
appropriate for their dog. 

287
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,080
More often than not not 
understanding that the dog is 

288
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,120
not actually antagonising a 
situation, a dog is just being a

289
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:32,520
dog in a human centric world. 
Fully, fully. 

290
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,560
Now The thing is though, the 
dog, the dog has to live its 

291
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,840
life in a human centric world. 
And so if we're going to use the

292
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:44,640
adage of the dog is living in a 
world that isn't really that 

293
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,880
conducive with it. 
But like we can show you ways or

294
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,560
that we can show the dog ways of
existing better in that world 

295
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:57,480
and existing in a more conducive
manner to keeping it safe and to

296
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,320
keeping it accountable, to 
keeping it happy, to keeping it 

297
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,520
alive. 
You know, if I have a method 

298
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,760
that it can explain this to the 
dog and maybe it involves 

299
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,760
aversives at some points or 
another. 

300
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,000
Now, again, what I want to say 
is I would say 80 to 90% of what

301
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,320
I do with the average dog is 
positive reinforcement. 

302
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,400
It's relationship building 
stuff. 

303
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,760
In order to have a good 
relationship with it, with 

304
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,920
anyone, not just a dog, like 
with your partner, with your 

305
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,240
business associate, whatever, 
you have to understand that 

306
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,840
there are boundaries that are at
play. 

307
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,200
And if you push that boundary, 
there might be a consequence. 

308
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,720
And that's not uncommon in human
psychology. 

309
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,920
And it's actually very well 
accepted that if you lay a 

310
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,040
boundary and somebody pushes it,
that there is usually an overt 

311
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,400
reaction and aversive reaction, 
shall we say. 

312
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,200
But with dogs, we're not allowed
to say that. 

313
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,040
And I think that that's very 
odd. 

314
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,400
I think that that's very strange
and it makes me wonder what 

315
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,320
motivates these people, because 
it certainly isn't the truth. 

316
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,280
And I think that I might catch a
lot of heat for this, but I'm 

317
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,920
sort of used to that. 
I'm very big on speaking my mind

318
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,480
to the best that I can anyway. 
Well, it's welcome. 

319
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,599
It's really welcome. 
I think ultimately you've got to

320
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,240
stay true to yourself. 
A part of me would like to 

321
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,319
believe that, you know, because 
most people believe that what 

322
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:21,760
they're doing is right, right. 
They believe that we all believe

323
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,599
we have the best intentions. 
And I think, I think my, my pain

324
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:29,360
comes from knowing there's so 
much I don't know and knowing 

325
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:31,320
there are so many things that so
many. 

326
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,040
Other people don't know, but 
you're already in such a better 

327
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,880
position than 99% of the 
populace if you, if you're aware

328
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,760
of what you don't, if you're 
aware of what you don't know, 

329
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,640
you're further ahead. 
You're always further ahead, you

330
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,240
know, Like I've been in this 
game 16 years and I still get 

331
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,880
humbled fairly regularly. 
Yeah. 

332
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,520
You know, and that's very 
important to people to hear. 

333
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,480
Yes, and it's painful, you know,
like I'm, I'm going in November,

334
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,480
I'm going down to do a full week
of bite of being the guy in the 

335
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,200
bite suit, a decoy course held 
by someday. 

336
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,280
I massively respect in the 
industry. 

337
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,200
And that's going to be very 
intimidating for me. 

338
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,560
I'm going to be in a room with 
20 other men that are much, much

339
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,760
better at this than I am. 
And it's, it's important for me 

340
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,760
to come out of that comfort zone
just like I'm asking my dogs to 

341
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,360
do, you know, like if I'm asking
my dogs to be confident and 

342
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,680
forward and whatever else, then 
I obviously want to be part of 

343
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,920
that as well. 
I want to, I want to constantly 

344
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,160
develop what I understand. 
And I've often found the decoys,

345
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,080
the guys in the bait suits are 
some of the most knowledgeable 

346
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,240
people you will ever, ever, ever
meet on reading dogs. 

347
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,680
As far as as far as their 
ability to understand what is 

348
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,120
going on inside the head of a 
dog. 

349
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,640
You're you're you're going to 
struggle finding people who can 

350
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,480
read a dog better than the best 
decoys in this country. 

351
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:51,000
Yeah, this it seems to be, I 
don't want to make this agenda 

352
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,000
thing, but like it seems to be a
very masculine thing, like the 

353
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,320
the kind of subculture of dog 
training and then gone dog 

354
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,360
competitions and things like 
that. 

355
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:03,440
The man versus beast thing. 
You see it in fishing, you see 

356
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,480
it in a whole host of different 
sports. 

357
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,040
Why? 
Why do you think that is? 

358
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:12,560
Because also what the irony of 
that is the use of tools, I 

359
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,120
don't know. 
I think, I think it's really 

360
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:16,560
curious. 
We don't really have to go into 

361
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,720
that with too much depth. 
Oh no, I think it's worth 

362
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,880
answering though. 
So my as far as as far as 

363
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,840
masculinity or femininity goes, 
I could pull out off the top of 

364
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,320
my head three fantastic female 
handlers that I've actually done

365
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,680
more in the bite work sport than
I have. 

366
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,560
April, June Emma at Raven 
Canine. 

367
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,560
She's fantastic and there's 
Phoenix canine as well. 

368
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,440
She'll have to forgive me, I 
can't remember her name right 

369
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,400
now, but Phoenix Canine. 
These are three fantastic 

370
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,240
balanced female handlers that 
are fantastic personalities in 

371
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,320
the game of dogs and also great 
representatives for the balance 

372
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,120
method because you can see just 
how impressive their dogs are. 

373
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,080
And I don't mean impressive just
in what they can do, but and 

374
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,240
also how would they do it. 
This is what people often mess 

375
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,320
and there's there are some 
people that might even say your 

376
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,160
dog's keeping his head up in the
heel because it's scared it's 

377
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,720
going to get zapped on a collar,
which is a ridiculous thing to 

378
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,600
say. 
Because if you think that I can 

379
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,640
heal this dog with no E collar 
on on a trial field for 750 

380
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,000
pieces and that dog's head is 
not going to drop once when it 

381
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,880
doesn't have an E collar on, 
you're being silly. 

382
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,040
The head is kept up with value, 
with drive, with enthusiasm, and

383
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,920
it shows a lack of understanding
when people see an E collar and 

384
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,680
they assume thanks, you know, 
But to answer your question 

385
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,240
properly about the masculinity 
side of things, I think if we're

386
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,120
going to be just completely 
common sense, let's just look at

387
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:43,440
it. 
I call a spade a spade. 

388
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,880
It's more of a masculine thing 
to do is a more of a masculine 

389
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:51,320
pastime to do, in my opinion, 
firing a large 30 to 40 heal a 

390
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,600
dog, another human being as 
technically something men are 

391
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,480
going to be doing because you 
know, men are stupid. 

392
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,880
It's something that we're going 
to be doing more often then then

393
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,520
a woman's going to do it. 
Now that doesn't mean to say 

394
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,000
obviously there's no women. 
I just I just pulled 3 examples 

395
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,160
out. 
Yeah. 

396
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,680
No, there are, there are. 
It's just majority, isn't it? 

397
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,440
Absolutely. 
Well, even now, I think if you 

398
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,280
look at particularly the pet dog
scene, if we've come away from 

399
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,960
the working world, but the pet 
dog scene, because I'm part of 

400
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,400
the pet dog scene as well. 
But a lot of the balance 

401
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,800
community and the pet dog scene,
a lot of the mentors or mentees,

402
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,320
sorry that I've had to come 
through my door, have all been 

403
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,400
women, you know, and I've helped
them as much as I can with their

404
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,000
career. 
I've obviously imparted some of 

405
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:40,240
my some of my wisdom, hopefully.
And, and I see, I actually see 

406
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,000
more women now. 
And I do think that you have a 

407
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,080
point with the sort of balanced 
community having a masculine 

408
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,640
edge to it, I would say. 
And there is definitely Eagle 

409
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,520
involved in both sides of the 
industry. 

410
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,760
I've been a part of that problem
at some point or another, I 

411
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,320
imagine. 10 out of 10 for 
self-awareness. 

412
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,120
No, I listen EE, as it's 
something I battled with for a 

413
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:05,840
very long time, so I'm very 
aware of it. 

414
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,080
Yeah. 
I just think people need to put 

415
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,280
their egos to the side to the 
best that they can. 

416
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,840
And a lot of people don't 
understand their ego, but put it

417
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,880
to the side the best they can 
and just talk about dogs and 

418
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,160
just talk like go train your 
dog. 

419
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,920
Like show me your dog. 
I don't care about your method. 

420
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,760
Show me your dog. 
And then after that, you can 

421
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,680
tell me how you've done it 
because, but ultimately we could

422
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,200
sit and debate online with an, I
could send debate online with a,

423
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,200
for instance, a force free 
trainer or a positive only 

424
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,640
trainer. 
And I, I could go back and forth

425
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,760
with this person. 
But ultimately, if I pull my dog

426
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,840
out, it looks like a dog 
trainer's dog often. 

427
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,920
And often I don't see much 
coming from force free to 

428
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,680
trainers dogs because they don't
have very high standards for 

429
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,920
them. 
And I think that that's odd. 

430
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,200
I really truly think that that 
is odd. 

431
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,480
Your whole life, your career, 
your lifestyle is centred around

432
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,840
dogs and you and you want to 
limit your dog to start being a 

433
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,280
bit of a like a slower paced 
dog. 

434
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,800
Now, I'm not saying every force 
free dog is like that. 

435
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,720
A lot of force free guys love 
their agility and their great 

436
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,200
agility as well because you're 
using a lot of intrinsic 

437
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,000
reinforcement from the agility 
course. 

438
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,200
But the major, the average, 
let's just say the average, the 

439
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,040
five out of 10 for three dog 
trainers. 

440
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,480
And by the way, there's many 5 
out of 10 balanced dog trainers 

441
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,920
as well. 
When they pull a dog out, it 

442
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,600
doesn't look like a dog 
trainer's dog. 

443
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,600
And that maybe that's judgmental
for me. 

444
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,240
Maybe that's judgmental for me 
to say. 

445
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,920
But I think a dog trainer, if 
I'm going to charge you to come 

446
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,280
and get advice off me and how to
train your family member, I 

447
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:40,640
should be able to pull a dog 
out. 

448
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,560
That makes you go quite clearly.
This person knows a bit more 

449
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,320
about this than I do, and it 
should be obvious. 

450
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,960
It shouldn't be something that 
you're questioning at any point.

451
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,560
It should be like, wow, I've 
either never seen a dog do that 

452
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,120
or the way that that dog is 
looking at that handler is 

453
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:57,680
something that I'm really, 
really like. 

454
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,080
If you see something in the 
relationship of the handler and 

455
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,760
the dog, great. 
But I invite you to watch how 

456
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,080
many of these dogs are simply 
being brought out of a van and 

457
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,840
sniffing the floor. 
It's more or as more often than 

458
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,920
than they'd maybe care to admit.
OK, so in your, in your, from 

459
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,920
your perspective, what makes a 
good trainer? 

460
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:18,200
What makes an exceptional 
trainer? 

461
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,400
Oh, what makes an exceptional 
trainer is a different question.

462
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,880
Yeah, because if you've got high
standards for your dog, I'm sure

463
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,840
you've got them for yourself. 
Yes, absolutely I do. 

464
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,520
Absolutely I do. 
I want to. 

465
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,640
I want to compete on the world 
stage at some point. 

466
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,520
Whether or not that's going to 
happen, whether or not I'm good 

467
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,720
enough to do that is another 
matter altogether, but we shall 

468
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,240
see. 
Time will tell and what makes a 

469
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,920
great what I'll answer both of 
them. 

470
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,200
What makes a good trainer? 
A good trainer as as the 

471
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,000
willingness to be wrong and the 
willingness to learn and assume 

472
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,320
that you're wrong. 
That's a good way of looking at 

473
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,560
dog training. 
And I think that the reason that

474
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,440
people say, oh God, Jack, you 
can really articulate your point

475
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,320
is because I've sat and I've 
bowed and debated myself over 

476
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,280
these things. 
And I've made sure that the 

477
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,600
conclusion that I come to is 
something that resonates, 

478
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,640
something that I go like, this 
isn't just what I think, it's 

479
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,120
what I believe. 
And I can back that belief up 

480
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:15,920
with this, this and this and 
this and this and this evidence 

481
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,240
that I can stack up in hand to 
you. 

482
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,200
So I think that that's the first
one. 

483
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,640
That's a good trainer. 
That's how you're going to 

484
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,600
differentiate the eagle maniacs 
in the game and the people who 

485
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,440
are going to listen to you about
your dog's problems. 

486
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:35,600
Exceptional trainers. 
These are very often, these are 

487
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,080
very unique people. 
I've for instance, I've been in 

488
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,680
the games like a long time, 1615
years or whatever. 

489
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,280
It's 16 years. 
And I know a gentleman called 

490
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,080
Jace and he is one of the most 
talented dog handlers I've ever 

491
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,120
met in my life. 
And he started training dogs 

492
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:54,440
like maybe 3-4 years ago. 
And he just has this way, this 

493
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,840
movement style that the style of
how he does obedience, the style

494
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,480
of how he how he puts everything
together for the dog, the style 

495
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,760
of how he does bite work is all 
really natural to him. 

496
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,240
And he's obviously spent a lot 
of time and money and effort 

497
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:08,840
developing it. 
That's not to take anything 

498
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,240
away, but he's naturally a 
gifted handler. 

499
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,680
He's naturally very gifted. 
I had to get smashed up a few 

500
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,360
times to get some messages 
through in my body. 

501
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:20,800
Whereas Jeff seems to have 
picked up very, very fluidly. 

502
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,400
But I think an exceptional 
trainer, an exceptional trainer 

503
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,720
is usually someday with a little
bit of a gift, but also Sunday 

504
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,600
that works harder than everyone 
else. 

505
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,760
Is the person the last the first
person to show up and the last 

506
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,400
person to leave? 
That's an exceptional trainer. 

507
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,360
What does that giftedness look 
like to the untrained eye? 

508
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,880
Because this is the thing I 
think what happens often is 

509
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,240
people looking for trainers end 
up going with people that they 

510
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,320
like, yes, as opposed to knowing
what to look for. 

511
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,560
Correct. 
And what it looks like, it looks

512
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,000
like anything that you see the 
dog do with the handler should 

513
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,400
look like it's painted, flowing 
from one thing to the next. 

514
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:03,960
There should be, no, it's not 
that. 

515
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,920
There should be no clunkiness. 
There is always going to be 

516
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,280
clunkiness. 
Your dog is not a robot. 

517
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,680
But there's there's an element 
of ease with everything that the

518
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,720
dog is doing with the handler. 
There's an element of excitement

519
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,520
and motivation from the dog as 
well that you can see the dog is

520
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,520
alert committee to the activity 
has given its heart, body, soul 

521
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,440
into this activity. 
And on top of that, that the 

522
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,200
every time the hand there might 
come near the dog that the dog 

523
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,880
is focused on task. 
The dog is not maybe leaning 

524
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,920
away from him or pulling back or
showing a lot of like stress 

525
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,160
signals. 
Jace has a I'm using Jace as an 

526
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,520
example, but like a personal 
hero of mine in the industry is 

527
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,240
Ivan Balabanov, who's a three 
time world champion and I think 

528
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,480
he is truly an exceptional mind 
in the game of dogs. 

529
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,320
I don't just think he's a good 
trainer or an exceptional 

530
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,320
trainer. 
I think the way he thinks about 

531
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:58,160
dog training is unique and 
caught and and really 

532
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,000
complicated way. 
It's really simple. 

533
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,360
You know, slightly off topic. 
I'm so sorry. 

534
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:09,080
I was just thinking about the, 
the, the the competitions. 

535
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,840
I was listening to you. 
It just don't don't be that 

536
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,040
we're running out of time. 
And I was like, no, that's. 

537
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:15,480
Fine. 
Oh my. 

538
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,280
Gosh, I really want to ask about
this. 

539
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,840
The IGP competitions, is that 
just for trainers or can anyone 

540
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,840
take part in those? 
Anyone can take part in them, 

541
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,160
you just have to be part of a 
club, so an IGP club. 

542
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,120
So I travel out to Cheshire once
a week to go to my club where we

543
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:34,800
do bike work and we do tracking 
and we do obedience in the 

544
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,480
format of IGP. 
So you'd have to get into a 

545
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,640
club, accepted into a club and 
then past that it would just be 

546
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,560
about the work rate that you put
in, you know, like how often are

547
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,040
you showing up? 
How often are you getting that 

548
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,320
working, you know, and building 
the dog into the best version of

549
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,640
itself. 
That's the sort of, I suppose 

550
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,920
that'd be the sort of moral 
tagline that sits underneath My 

551
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,720
training would be like, how do I
make this dog the best version 

552
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,480
of himself, you know? 
I guess my question is around 

553
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,680
members of the public who don't 
have the same level of knowledge

554
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,880
then get these working dogs with
the intention of training them 

555
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:16,040
for this particular type of 
competition environment and not 

556
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,120
being able to I guess control 
or? 

557
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,440
So I think the great thing about
the great thing about IGP as 

558
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,800
opposed to other bike sports, as
the barrier for entry is a bit 

559
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,000
more stringent. 
It's a little bit harder to get 

560
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,920
in. 
You have to be sort of assessed.

561
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,200
You have to be assessed. 
You look at my club for 

562
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,440
instance, you'd have to come to 
unless you're running on the 

563
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,560
recommendation or something that
we trust at club and you would 

564
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,480
have to come down for an 
assessment 1st. 

565
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,120
And then it would be decided to 
that point whether or not it 

566
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,760
would be wise to continue. 
What's really important about 

567
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,280
dogs that are doing bite work is
that again, a lot of people 

568
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,200
might not like the sound of it 
or, but they might not even like

569
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,840
the execution of the OR the fact
that dogs are doing it at all. 

570
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:05,560
It's one of the few places left 
in dog sports where the dog can 

571
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,760
truly show you what he's made 
of. 

572
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:15,840
And I think that if we lose that
because of some arbitrary fear 

573
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,440
that, you know, maybe a member 
of the public will go and train 

574
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,920
this poorly, I think that that 
is kind of like saying, OK, 

575
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,000
well, we shouldn't allow anyone 
in this boxing gym because what,

576
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,720
somebody goes out on a night out
and starts knocking people out? 

577
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,760
It's like, well, hold on, That's
not the Boxing Gems fault. 

578
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,000
This is a product of the 
character that you're dealing 

579
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,840
with. 
And if that falls on that 

580
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,560
person's head, that person has 
to take responsibility for it. 

581
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,480
If he's a trainer and her dog 
has been in a situation where 

582
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,800
he's smashed another person or 
bet another person, then 

583
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,920
obviously there needs to be some
accountability for that with 

584
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,200
regards to from the trainer's 
end. 

585
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,840
But then there's also an element
of it that a lot of people who 

586
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,560
do bite sports, maybe they don't
prioritise the control aspect as

587
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,880
much as they should. 
Maybe they build too much dog 

588
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:01,720
through nothing but an 
experience. 

589
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,760
This definitely happens, of 
course it does. 

590
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,160
But again, it goes back to the 
boxing gym analogy as the F. 

591
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,600
If a person has a proclivity 
towards being violent, does that

592
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,360
mean to say that they should 
never ever be allowed to, to 

593
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,960
utilise violence in a controlled
manner? 

594
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,560
And I, I would argue the 
opposite. 

595
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,680
I would argue that it's better 
for violent people to have 

596
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,600
outlets that are safe and 
constructive for these orgies. 

597
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,840
Same as dogs, you know, like 
pressing Canarios are bred to 

598
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,440
hunt and kill and fight. 
That is what they've been in the

599
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,080
Canadian islands. 
That's what they've been bred to

600
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,080
do. 
Pet bills in Hawaii are bred to 

601
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,000
hunt and kill boars. 
These are dogs that you cannot 

602
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,600
convert into a pet dog, that 
it's just not important. 

603
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,360
It's not possible. 
You'll end up being in hospital 

604
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,160
or dead. 
These dogs are the types of dogs

605
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,520
that nobody sees because we 
don't breed them anymore. 

606
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,600
We don't breed them in the pet 
sphere. 

607
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,320
You buy from the pet sphere, 
you're not going to get, you're 

608
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,600
not going to get out those 
particular dogs. 

609
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,240
Really, really interesting. 
But there are still, yeah. 

610
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,760
I mean, it's just such a can of 
worms I honestly feel. 

611
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,080
I really AM. 
Scratched this surface on this 

612
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,840
because I have, you know, like 
all these, this is what's it 

613
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,760
called, New York palm trees. 
It's like 1's firing here and 

614
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,400
the other one's firing. 
It's like, don't forget that 

615
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,280
one. 
Go back. 

616
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,280
Absolutely. 
I've got fascinating. 

617
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,880
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's 
something that I'm very 

618
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,720
passionate about and it's 
something I've spent a long time

619
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,400
educating myself in. 
And an opportunity to talk about

620
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,800
it to somebody who's who's eager
to listen is always something 

621
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,120
that I'm interested in. 
Oh, I'm so glad. 

622
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,160
I'm so glad. 
I mean, yeah, this is the thing.

623
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,840
I think going into a 
conversation, I already know how

624
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,320
I feel about certain things and 
I know my stance on certain 

625
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,080
things. 
I know where my values lie, but 

626
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,640
I also acknowledge and admit 
that that is within my limited 

627
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,440
experience. 
I don't have exposure to the 

628
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,640
amount of dogs that you do and I
know that like it's really hard 

629
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,520
even hearing the word predator 
because I was on a different 

630
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:18,720
trainers website today and I was
like like that feels really 

631
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,360
harsh. 
I think the reason I use that 

632
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,680
word is to is to bring people 
back to the biology of their 

633
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,000
dog. 
It's not to make people have 

634
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,280
this image of this snarling 
predator, It's to recognise that

635
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,640
there are mechanisms inside of 
this dog that are hard wired 

636
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,280
into this animal that are 
predatory in nature. 

637
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,600
The reason the horses don't 
chase things and they run away 

638
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,240
from things is because they're 
prey animals. 

639
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,440
The reason dogs chase things and
not run away from things if 

640
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,680
they're going to chase after 
prey animal and so on, is 

641
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,840
because they're predators. 
So they've evolved from 

642
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,760
predators. 
Their domesticated predator 

643
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,760
would be the best categorization
of of what a dog is. 

644
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,320
And we have to respect these 
mechanisms, particularly in 

645
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,840
breeds where it's those 
mechanisms are a little closer 

646
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,560
to the surface. 
Does that make sense? 

647
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,360
Yeah, it does make sense. 
What? 

648
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,000
What do you think we could learn
from dogs? 

649
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,440
So many things. 
You can learn a lot about 

650
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:20,880
yourself from training a dog 
properly. 

651
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:22,679
You can learn about how patient 
you are. 

652
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,719
You can learn about how tolerant
you are. 

653
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,280
You can learn about how clear 
you are, how good of a 

654
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,239
communicator you truly are. 
You can learn how how your 

655
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,880
emotions affect your 
environment. 

656
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,400
That's a huge one that I, I 
really try and distil into my 

657
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,000
clients is that the way that you
interact with the environment 

658
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,199
not only has an effect on the 
dog, but it has an effect on the

659
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,199
environment itself. 
And that environment feeds back 

660
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:50,520
to you and your feedback to the 
environment and constantly. 

661
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,239
And the dog is very attuned to 
this. 

662
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,320
I think we could learn 
awareness. self-awareness would 

663
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,680
probably be the most poignant 
thing that I, I think dogs could

664
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,400
teach us because dogs are not 
thinking about what's going to 

665
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,480
happen next. 
Or some dogs might be if they're

666
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,480
very worried or nervous, but a 
lot of dogs are just simply 

667
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,320
existing and cracking on with 
it. 

668
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,600
And when people, rescue dogs are
a good example of this, they 

669
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,040
hear a bad story about the 
rescue and then that colours the

670
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,560
way that they train their dog. 
That colour, that story colours 

671
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,200
the way that they treat the dog.
And they make and they confirm 

672
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,400
to the dog that the dog that 
this acting weak and fragile is 

673
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,040
something that's reinforcing and
something that is going to incur

674
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,680
more attention from the people 
around them. 

675
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,000
And so that must be correct to 
the dog. 

676
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,200
You know, the dog's getting some
form of attention or 

677
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,880
reinforcement for it. 
And so the behaviour that's 

678
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,800
attached to those emotions gets 
reinforced, not the emotion 

679
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:50,120
itself. 
And I think, like I say, we if 

680
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,000
we could really sit back and 
truly understand how much people

681
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,560
don't, I don't have enough time 
left to explain how much we 

682
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,920
could learn from dogs, how much 
I've learned from dogs, how much

683
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,160
dogs have developed me 
personally and, and my 

684
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,440
relationships with other people,
with my partner, How much it's 

685
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,920
made me realise that most of the
time that I'm getting frustrated

686
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,640
or flustered, it's because of me
and not because of anything 

687
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,560
else. 
You know to to to that that 

688
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,360
would probably be what I would 
distil it down to. 

689
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,640
That's lovely because that's, I 
mean, yeah, that's that 

690
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,200
self-awareness you were talking 
about. 

691
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,200
But having that self-awareness 
means that, you know, you're not

692
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,720
blaming your environment, you're
not blaming your dog, you're not

693
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:33,920
blaming your partner, you're not
blaming everything and get 

694
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:39,120
external to you, you know, for 
your own behaviour. 

695
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,320
Yeah. 
Absolutely, Absolutely. 

696
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,120
Really interesting. 
Come from inside you. 

697
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,480
Exactly. 
I have one last question for 

698
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:55,600
you, if that's OK. 
Can you give me an example of a 

699
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,440
preconceived idea that you might
have had about a dog or dog 

700
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,200
behaviour? 
Something something that's 

701
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,840
shifted for you in your mind 
where you thought it was this 

702
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:09,040
way and then learned it was not?
And then kind of just talk me 

703
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,360
through that journey. 
This might be difficult to 

704
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,240
articulate, but I do think I 
have an answer. 

705
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,920
And so there was a, there was a 
phase of my training where 

706
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,800
everything was what I would call
very systematic with the way 

707
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,520
that I trained dogs. 
So it would be if the dog done 

708
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:30,320
X, then I would respond with Y. 
And that might be in the shape 

709
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,880
of a positive reinforcement 
schedule, you know, like saying 

710
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,960
yes, speed, yes, speed and 
whatever else. 

711
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,640
Or that might be in the shape of
just trying to problem solve 

712
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:44,200
something systematically. 
Now what I focus on just coming 

713
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,360
away from those individual 
systems and looking at the 

714
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,640
concepts that sit underneath the
training, the concepts, the hold

715
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,280
are the cement that hold all the
breaths together on your wall of

716
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,600
understanding with your dog. 
And the concepts are actually 

717
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,840
very easy to teach the dog. 
And I'll give you a very quick 

718
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,000
example to help articulate this 
point as if I'm teaching a dog 

719
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,960
that doesn't really like any 
nails trend as a very easy 

720
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,880
example. 
So my presser Canadio, he didn't

721
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,240
like it at first. 
And he didn't like what? 

722
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:13,600
Sorry. 
Having his his nails trimmed. 

723
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,040
Oh yes. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

724
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,200
So he didn't like having them 
trimmed at 1st. 

725
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:23,120
And so I went through the whole 
approach of I come over to you 

726
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,520
with the Clippers and I see feed
and yeah, I go over to your paw 

727
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,160
and I touch your paw. 
Then I feed again. 

728
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,360
And it was going nowhere. 
The dog was sort of taking 

729
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,920
advantage of this system is that
if I slow this down, I get more 

730
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,160
reinforcement, you understand? 
So instead of that, I looked at 

731
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,360
it like a very common sense, 
like what a parent would do to a

732
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,080
child that is refusing to get 
their toenails cut set still. 

733
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,040
If you try and bite me, you're 
in trouble. 

734
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:52,080
Give me your paw and then clip. 
There's a there's a little bit 

735
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,200
of food clip, clip, clip, clip, 
clip. 

736
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,920
And when he tried to argue with 
me, I gave him a little tap on 

737
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,960
his nose and I went no. 
And then from that point, he 

738
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,520
knew that that response was off 
the table. 

739
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,840
And so he let just let me do his
his his paws. 

740
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:14,040
Now we're a systematic trainer 
would be at that for weeks, 

741
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,320
weeks on end of I come close to 
you with the Clippers do this 

742
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,760
now obviously depends on the 
dog's history and the dog's 

743
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,120
experience of it beforehand. 
But there is something really 

744
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,280
fundamental that's missing when 
we have to spend 3 weeks trying 

745
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:29,960
to teach a dog how to get his 
nails trimmed. 

746
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,040
I think, I think that as far as 
just know, sit there and let me 

747
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,080
do it. 
So that's a message I can get 

748
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,640
across to a dog fairly easily 
without any emotional fallout 

749
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,480
for the dog and the dog reaches 
the destination that I want him 

750
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,400
to reach quicker. 
Does that make sense? 

751
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,720
It does, yeah. 
But that that's a reflection of 

752
00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:53,800
your level of tolerance, I 
guess, or patience. 

753
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,960
In order to get a desired result
over a certain period of time, 

754
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,760
you're choosing the shorter 
path. 

755
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,600
I'm choosing. 
I'm choosing the clearer path to

756
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,680
the dog. 
I'm choosing the past that shows

757
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,080
me the most understanding as 
quickly as I can. 

758
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:12,800
Now there is there is a adage in
the dog training industry that 

759
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,320
if you are doing something 
quickly, you're probably doing 

760
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,160
it wrong. 
And I actually fundamentally 

761
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:20,720
agree with that a lot of the 
time. 

762
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,680
There are exceptions. 
There are common sense things 

763
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,680
where people will over 
complicate a problem and the 

764
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,280
only and not only do they over 
complicate it for themselves, 

765
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:33,560
feel overcomplicated for the dog
as well. 

766
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,040
Because now the dog doesn't just
have to think about getting his 

767
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,840
nails trimmed. 
He has to think about some weird

768
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,760
reinforcement schedule that 
starts when I walk over with 

769
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,960
these Clippers. 
Actually, to give you a 

770
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,200
contrasting a case, which was 
exactly the same behaviour, I 

771
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,960
had a bill breed that came in 
and the dog's toenails were like

772
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,320
Carling under its its paws and I
said, put a muzzle on him. 

773
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:58,720
I'm going to walk over just with
a flat collar. 

774
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:01,920
I didn't, I didn't have any 
equipment on the dog and he was 

775
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,720
a very sweet dog. 
He conditioned to the muzzle. 

776
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,480
I tried to turn his paws and he 
went ballistic at me. 

777
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,520
He went like muzzle punching my 
face. 

778
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,400
I was like, oh, calm down. 
And I stood there with him. 

779
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,520
I grabbed him by his collar and 
I just went enough and I sat 

780
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,840
there with him until he 
regulated himself. 

781
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,560
It took about 12 minutes and I 
know it took 12 minutes because 

782
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:26,280
I had filmed it took it 12 
minutes for this dog to fully 

783
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,160
accept that he's not going 
anywhere. 

784
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,800
Calm down. 
After that I immediately went 

785
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,640
back to the paw and I went give 
me your paw. 

786
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,040
And then he gave it to me the 
second time, wouldn't let me 

787
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,800
trim it blew up again. 
Same thing happened again. 

788
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,840
The next time it was 4 minutes 
he was held there for and then 

789
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,600
the next time again I got a nail
trend, he blew up. 

790
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,640
And then after that I took the 
muzzle off and I went good boy 

791
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,280
super. 
I put the muzzle back on. 

792
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,800
So show them if you cooperate, 
that muzzle is going to come 

793
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,480
off, put the muzzle back on. 
And then he let me do the rest 

794
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,800
of his nails. 
And I just had to be willing to 

795
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,600
have that argument with that dog
or that let that dog have the 

796
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,280
argument with me and not give 
anything back in the argument. 

797
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,800
I'm just going like, you're 
being weird here, bro. 

798
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,920
I'm just trying to try me. 
I'm just, I'm not, this isn't a 

799
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,800
complicated behaviour. 
I'm trying to teach you. 

800
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,360
So why would I complicate it for
the dog? 

801
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,960
Does that make sense? 
And then no, by the way, no, the

802
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:20,800
dog actually quite enjoys 
getting his nails trims because 

803
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,600
he gets a lot of tennis sardines
at the end. 

804
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:26,640
So he knows, he knows this. 
He knows this now. 

805
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,920
Yeah, exactly. 
He knows this he and and there 

806
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,520
will even be points now where he
retrieves the Clippers to his 

807
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,000
owners because he wants the 10 
sardines like he's being. 

808
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,760
Pushy with it. 
So, and that was, and that 

809
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,360
change was not born from 
positive reinforcement. 

810
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,200
That change was born from you're
not going to do that to me, 

811
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,640
you're going to let me do this. 
And I think that if people look 

812
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,880
at aversive conditioning, like 
in that tone, they have much 

813
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,440
more, they'd have much more 
tract with it. 

814
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,480
It feels less offensive straight
away. 

815
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,840
Yeah, could well as soon as you 
said the bop on the nose, like 

816
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,360
obviously I don't know what that
looked like or anything like 

817
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,040
that, but that like it's it's 
like who these things does 

818
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,080
something to me like I'm feeling
feelings here. 

819
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,960
You know, it's I don't know why 
why I don't know what it is. 

820
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:19,960
Maybe it's because dogs can't 
speak. 

821
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,200
You just. 
Know, but my dog I can I can 

822
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,920
definitely understand my dog and
this is something that I like my

823
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,080
dog can't speak he just doesn't 
speak with his mouth. 

824
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,240
He speaks all the time 
constantly speaking to me 

825
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,440
constantly can tell me what he 
likes and that little bop on the

826
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,920
note I want to make this as 
clear as I can. 

827
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,600
When a dog like oppressor 
Canario as doing his job, 

828
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,400
whether it be hunting or doing 
protection work or whatever it 

829
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:54,800
might be the level of pressure 
that those dogs can take or 

830
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,600
something that people have no 
experience with. 

831
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,520
So this on his nose was enough 
for him to go off with that and 

832
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,440
then go fight. 
Now as far as how much like for 

833
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,920
a child, for instance, as the 
kid was being a bit of a Nutter 

834
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,320
and you just needed to interrupt
it and you just flip the back of

835
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,200
his ear. 
He's going to turn around really

836
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,280
quickly and go out and then I 
can talk to the kid now because 

837
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,360
I've interrupted the I and now I
can because I've interrupted the

838
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,160
behaviour. 
And now I can say, do you know 

839
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,160
why I flipped you on the do you 
know why I flipped you on the 

840
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:28,640
year? 
And he's like, why would you 

841
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:29,680
like me on the air? 
Well, it's because you're 

842
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,120
kicking off about that and you 
need to calm down. 

843
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,120
And the only difference between 
a child and how we do this with 

844
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,240
a child and how we do this with 
a dog is that I don't have the 

845
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:41,920
verbal side of it with the dog. 
I show the dog through my 

846
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,880
actions. 
And that's where accountability 

847
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,840
from my end is so important. 
I can't do that. 

848
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,480
I can't sit down and regulate a 
dog if I'm frustrated or if I'm 

849
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,600
flustered or if I'm emotional. 
I'm sitting there and I'm 

850
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,440
showing the dog what I want, 
which is calm. 

851
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,360
It's calm, but it's confident 
and it may even be firm, but 

852
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,080
it's but it's calm. 
It's not. 

853
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,440
I always say to people, if you 
correct your dog when you're 

854
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,040
frustrated, you've left it far 
too long. 

855
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,520
But you know what, that's really
interesting and I think that's 

856
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,720
valid. 
I do think that's valid. 

857
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,840
I think sometimes when you come 
from an emotional place and 

858
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,720
you've lost self-control and 
self respect, you act in ways 

859
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:24,440
that are not in the benefit of 
the other person or the animal 

860
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,840
or whatever. 
And that's a clear like 

861
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,840
indication. 
I guess if you are not in 

862
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:35,760
control of yourself, that's a 
clear sign that you are off. 

863
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,120
This is this is something that 
we teach parents ad nauseam. 

864
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,240
This is something that parent 
and therapists and psychologists

865
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:47,960
have been talking about for 
decades now as so a very famous 

866
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,400
way of teaching a toddler at 
what no means is toddler 

867
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,480
scrolling around and crawler go 
baby toddler goes to poke his 

868
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,000
finger in the plug socket. 
He's very famous psychologist 

869
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,320
online and I watch a lot of 
these lectures called Jordan 

870
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,920
Pearson. 
He's not particularly the most 

871
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,760
who accepted person in the 
world, but I do think he's, I do

872
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,520
think the man. 
I've read a lot of Soldier 

873
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,760
Netskin and I've read a lot of 
Freud and I've read a lot of 

874
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,000
Nietzsche. 
And one of the things that I 

875
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,160
really like and his explanation 
of how he teaches a toddler what

876
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,080
no means is the toddler might 
crawl up to put his finger in 

877
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,520
the plug socket and he says no. 
And he just holds the toddler by

878
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,720
the ankle. 
Now, what's going to happen at 

879
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:31,080
that point is the toddler's 
probably going to get frustrated

880
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,320
because he can't access the 
thing that he's curious about. 

881
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,880
And he's going to cry and 
protest at the point where the 

882
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,960
toddler's crying in protest and 
he just gently holds on to the 

883
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,240
toddler. 
And at the point where the 

884
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:43,760
toddler stops it, he lets the 
toddler go. 

885
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,400
And then the next day, it shows 
a reduction in the behaviour of 

886
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,520
going towards the plug socket. 
And then eventually he just goes

887
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,880
no. 
And the toddler has a little 

888
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,600
experience of that, aversive 
experience. 

889
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,480
I, if I do that again, he's 
going to grab my foot. 

890
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,640
It's associative learning. 
So if I do X, then Y happens. 

891
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,720
I don't think. 
And the only reason that that is

892
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:07,920
contentious in today's day and 
age is because people don't know

893
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,760
how to have conversations on 
emotionally anymore and about 

894
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,520
particularly about their dogs, 
particularly about things that 

895
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,720
they love. 
But like I say, I think that if 

896
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:20,280
we could just have a few 
articulate voices talking about 

897
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,880
this as much as we can, then I 
think a lot more people will be 

898
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,480
open to a common sense approach 
to the use of aversives and 

899
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,560
training and so on. 
Yeah. 

900
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,320
Oh my gosh. 
Honestly, I'm so grateful. 

901
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,520
Jack, thank you so much for this
conversation. 

902
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,600
I've learned so much from you. 
No, thank you so much for having

903
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,000
me and thank you for thank you 
for the opportunity just to talk

904
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,040
about what I'm, what I love and 
what I'm passionate about. 

905
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,920
I really, truly do appreciate. 
I'm grateful to be here. 

906
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,720
I'm grateful that you thought of
me in the 1st place, so I'm. 

907
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,000
Just happy to have. 
A conversation. 

908
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,840
I found you online. 
I think it takes a lot of 

909
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,480
courage for people to have 
opinions in this day and age. 

910
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,000
And I thought I could see in 
your content that you were 

911
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,440
really outspoken and you had 
some firm beliefs. 

912
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,400
And I thought, this is someone 
that I have to speak to, you 

913
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:03,880
know. 
So I'm very glad that you 

914
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,480
accepted the invitation. 
That makes me feel all warm and 

915
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:07,920
fuzzy inside. 
That's amazing. 

916
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:09,800
That's amazing. 
Thank you so much. 

917
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,320
My pleasure. 
I hope that maybe in the future 

918
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,800
we could get you back on. 
I'm actually going to go out of 

919
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,320
my way now to find another type 
of trainer to hear a different 

920
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,520
type of perspective and who 
knows, maybe one day we can get 

921
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,040
you all in the same room 
together. 

922
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,120
Let's do it, Let's do it. 
I'll do it tomorrow. 

923
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,000
Watch me. 
Amazing. 

924
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:32,080
Cool. 
Well, I hope you have a lovely 

925
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,320
rest of your evening and thanks 
again for coming on. 

926
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:36,680
Thank you for having me, it's 
been a pleasure.