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Hello and welcome to another 
episode of Just the Dog Podcast,

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the podcast for thoughtful dog 
lovers and guardians. 

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I am your host, Nadine. 
In today's episode, I speak with

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clinical animal behaviourist Tom
Candy, whose career began in 

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rescue at 15 and has carried him
through the frontline realities 

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of shelter work, behaviour 
support and staff training. 

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Tom brings a steady, considered 
voice to subjects that are often

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emotionally charged, and his 
experience was in large rescue 

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systems gives him a perspective 
that many of us do not usually 

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hear. 
The conversation moves across a 

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broad landscape, touching on 
pressures facing shelters, the 

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changing expectations placed on 
dogs, the role of behaviour 

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modification medication and the 
emotional reality of supporting 

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animals and people during 
difficult times. 

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This episode offers a window 
into a part of the dog world 

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shaped by responsibility, 
caution, compassion and systemic

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pressure. 
It is a different kind of 

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conversation, but a meaningful 
one. 

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Let's begin. 
Tom, thank you so much for 

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joining me on Just the Dog 
Podcast. 

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Thank you for having me. 
I am super excited to have you 

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on the podcast because you have 
a very long history of working 

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with dogs in rescue. 
I'd love to learn a little bit 

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more about your journey. 
Was always really passionate 

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about animals, was always 
interested in animals and we 

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never had pets growing up, but I
just had this affinity or 

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attraction for any animals that 
I came across really. 

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We used to spend a lot of time 
in the kind of West Wales 

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countryside and I'd always walk 
down the lane and, and stand, 

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you know, with the horses that 
lived in the, the nearby field 

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and, and whatnot. 
I guess I'm sort of of that age 

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where there wasn't a lot of 
scope in animal careers. 

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It was kind of your push towards
veterinary. 

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And another time I definitely 
felt like I, I wanted to be a 

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vet. 
That was my interest. 

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That was my kind of passion 
early on. 

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So, you know, in the UK as part 
of kind of applications for 

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veterinary medicine, you, you 
tend to have to do work 

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experience to demonstrate that 
interest and, and that drive. 

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So like he said, when I was 
about 15, I started volunteering

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for Hope Rescue Wales, which is 
a medium sized rescue in South 

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Wales in the UK. 
And my idea was that it would be

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like a couple of weeks, you 
know, it looks good on your CV. 

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I'd get some, some nice 
interactions with dogs and 

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people. 
And the first event that I went 

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to was about March time. 
So it's freezing cold and we 

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were at Pets at Home and we, we 
stood outside Pets at Home 

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fundraising and telling people 
about the charity. 

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And I got given the little dog 
to look after called Faith. 

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And Faith was a staff triple 
terrier and she was recovering 

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from Maine. 
So she had sort of a lot of Fair

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loss and firms growing back. 
And she had this little little 

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black dog with this purple 
jumper on. 

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And I looked after her for the 
day and I told people her story.

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And I sort of knew that point. 
Regardless of where my career 

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went in terms of whether I was a
vet, whether I did something 

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else, rescuing shelter was 
really where I wanted to be. 

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So even from that one 
interaction, it really 

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solidified my passion in this 
industry. 

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So I continued kind of 
volunteering at fundraising 

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events. 
I moved on to transporting, so 

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moving dogs from the pounds or 
from home rescue to other 

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organisations, bigger 
organisations that could support

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the needs of the charity. 
I started doing home checking 

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and you know, this, this wider 
introduction to the rescue world

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again kind of just solidified 
that career path for me. 

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After that, I went to university
and I did a bio veterinary 

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degree because I still wasn't 
sure whether veterinary was 

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where I wanted to go. 
But through doing that, I 

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actually fell in love with 
animal behaviour. 

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And then I did a master's in 
clinical animal behaviour. 

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And then since then, the last 
kind of 11 years, I've worked 

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full time in animal behaviour, 
in rescue and sheltering. 

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So yeah, it's, it's really cool.
It's tricky, as you can imagine,

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but it's a it's a real privilege
of as a job. 

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I can imagine there are some 
really, really tough days and 

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possibly some really rewarding 
days as well. 

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But before we kind of go into 
that, I'm curious to learn 

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whether you had any kind of 
preconceived ideas about dogs 

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before you started working with 
them, and how has that changed 

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over time? 
That's a really great question 

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because we we did get a family 
dog. 

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So actually around the same time
as I started vaunting with hope,

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we got got a little cavalier 
across called Tia. 

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So that was our first kind of 
family pet and she was amazing. 

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She was like so easy and you 
know, it's just really simple. 

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We did some training with her, 
but she pretty much came as like

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a ready made packages of a dog. 
She was she was pretty cool. 

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But obviously I had spent a lot 
of time already volunteering in 

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in rescues. 
I suppose I had quite a 

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wide-ranging view of dogs. 
Anyway, what's maybe changed 

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over the last kind of 15 years 
is the idea of individuality 

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within dogs. 
So I think we we see that more 

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and more and the more work I do,
you know, you have a 

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preconceived idea when you go 
into it, go into a kennel to 

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work with a dog or when you you 
work with a foster home and they

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always kind of take you by 
surprise and change things. 

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So, you know, we do see 
similarities within breeds, We 

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do see similarities within 
groups, but every dog is that 

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individual. 
They've got individual wants, 

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individual needs, and all of 
that plays into their behaviour.

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And then obviously how we 
approach it or how that 

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manifests. 
And I think that's really what's

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kind of changed for me is, is 
that, you know, very sad. 

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This is what I'm going to do. 
This is how I'm going to 

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approach this situation. 
Whereas now I'm a lot more 

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fluid, kind of wait and see what
happens a lot of the time and 

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then build off that kind of 
rapport with each individual dog

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rather than thinking, right, OK,
this is the plan for today. 

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This is the plan for this 
session. 

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So I guess that's the biggest 
change I can think of. 

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Yeah, interesting actually 
because it takes, I think it 

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takes a certain kind of skill to
see dogs as individuals. 

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You kind of depending on how you
grew up and what kind of ideas 

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were passed on to you, you kind 
of have to re jig your brain in 

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some way to start looking at 
dogs as more than instead of 

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less than and consider their 
experience within our very human

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world. 
Have you noticed anything with 

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regards to people you said home 
visits, their beliefs around 

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dogs and how dogs should be 
treated and how dogs are treated

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in reality? 
Yeah, I think it's really 

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interesting. 
Again, I work a lot 

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internationally, so across 
different countries and there's 

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a real big difference across the
world at how animals are 

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perceived, how animals are 
treated. 

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And that actually effects our 
our own perception as well, 

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which is really interesting. 
I'll probably talk about that in

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a minute. 
But when we think about here in 

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the UK, we have seen a massive 
shift in our approach to to dogs

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and dog ownership. 
And obviously, you know, the one

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thing the UK is famous for is 
like, you know, my dogs are 

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man's best friend and Britain 
is, is a nation of dog lovers. 

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And I genuinely still believe 
that was true. 

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But through for the last kind of
20-30 years, maybe, I think 

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things are starting to shift. 
So we've gone from, like you 

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said, the idea of dogs are kind 
of dogs are dogs and they're 

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just there and, you know, maybe 
these live outside or these two 

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kind of just free roam during 
the day. 

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And nobody really was too 
bothered about what they were up

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to, to the kind of complete 
opposite of that on the spectrum

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where we've now kind of got 
their babies and dogs are kind 

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of extensions of their owner. 
And then we see those kind of 

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small dogs being carried around 
in bags as almost like fashion 

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accessories. 
And when we have everything in 

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between, I think what we tend to
be seeing from the kind of 

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general public is dogs just fit 
much more into that family 

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model, which is in my opinion is
really great. 

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So we're starting to see things 
like people not being too 

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bothered by if the dogs getting 
on the sofa, as long as they're 

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not, you know, dirty and muddy, 
you know, they're we see we're 

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seeing an increase in dog 
friendly spaces like pubs, like 

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cafes, like restaurants. 
We see a lot more people now 

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going on dog friendly holidays 
in the UK because, you know, 

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whereas before we used to just 
put our dogs into kennels and go

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away for two weeks. 
They want them to become part of

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that holiday, part of that 
adventure and part of the 

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memories. 
So we've kind of got we've still

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got this massive scope and 
massive range of perceptions of 

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dogs, but I think there is now a
narrowing of how they fit into 

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our life. 
And it is much more that kind of

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two way relationship, which you 
know, like I said, I think is 

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really cool. 
There's been another sort of 

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little shift though, 
particularly post COVID and 

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particularly with the way that 
that dogs are represented 

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currently in the media, 
particularly around their 

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behaviour, where we're now 
starting to put quite a lot of 

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expectations on dogs. 
And that sometimes can lead to 

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conflict in the way that we 
think about our dogs and the way

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that we approach it. 
You know, a classic example of 

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this and and take this with a 
pinch of salt. 

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I'm not saying this is right 
either. 

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And we can obviously dive into 
it after. 

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But you know, a few years ago it
was very common conversation to 

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be like, don't approach to the 
dog while they're eating. 

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If sleeping dogs lie. 
Oh, if the dogs, if they don't 

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growled at you or nipped you, 
what did you do to upset the 

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dog? 
And obviously, particularly 

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thinking of our younger members 
of society, the big shift that 

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we've got now is the 
expectations on dogs is really 

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high. 
So we have this expectation 

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that, you know, they should be 
immaculately behaved all of the 

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time. 
They should never, never put a 

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step out a line. 
They should tolerate being a 

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fair baby, like we said, being 
picked, being carried, wearing 

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costumes, wearing clothes. 
And that's had an impact too. 

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So we've caught actually in 
quite a short period of time, 

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this massive shift in how 
society views dogs as how we 

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view dogs as individuals and how
dogs are portrayed, which 

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obviously also impacts how we 
feel about them. 

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So what what I mentioned earlier
on about that kind of different 

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culture, often what we do is we 
look at cultures where dogs are 

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more free living. 
So if we think of India, some of

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the European continents and we 
see these dogs and we see them 

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as maybe suffering or having 
poor welfare because they're not

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living in a home, they're not 
having that kind of constant 

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family love. 
Or actually there's dogs are 

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pretty happy. 
They've got a pretty good life, 

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particularly in India. 
They're community dogs. 

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So they're looked after by the 
community, they're fed, they are

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taken care of. 
They just don't live in houses. 

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But culturally, that's a very 
different perception on what 

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we've got over here. 
So it's really interesting. 

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Just that one question I could 
probably talk about all day and 

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I think fast, as we kind of just
mentioned that is one of the big

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shifts that we've seen is this 
kind of anthropomorphism of dogs

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about putting, putting human 
beliefs or human feelings onto 

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our dogs. 
And yeah, doing things like 

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dressing up, like you said, 
post, I know and talk about it 

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all the time. 
But post COVID, we know that as 

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a, as a species, humans are less
resilient. 

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We've gone through this massive 
pandemic and we've had all of 

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the pressure of lockdown, the, 
the kind of cost of living 

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crisis that's followed it. 
Everything that's happened now 

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we know that we're not as 
resilient as a, as a culture, as

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a species as we have been in the
past. 

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And we put that onto dogs as 
well. 

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So like you said, we often see 
these kind of dogs abroad living

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on the street and we think, Oh 
yeah, we can, we can improve 

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their life by bringing them here
and almost having that 

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guardianship kind of feeling 
around them. 

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But like you said, sometimes you
bring them here, it's not what 

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they've grown up with, it's not 
what they've used to. 

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And that they they really 
struggle. 

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We also do you see really good 
success stories with foreign 

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rescue dogs who don't want to 
kind of tar everything with the 

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same brush and there are 
difficulties around that and 

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00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,640
not. 
Yeah, that's just really 

228
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interesting as well, how we kind
of have this external pressure 

229
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,200
that even that changes how we 
kind of interact and approach 

230
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our relationship with our dogs. 
Yeah. 

231
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,120
With them, since Covad, you must
have obviously working in 

232
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rescue, seen the rise in people 
rehoming their dogs. 

233
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Have you seen any trends in 
terms of specific breeds or 

234
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breed types or, you know, like 
are they kind of more lap dogs, 

235
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,120
designer dogs, you know, working
dogs? 

236
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,960
What are some of the trends that
you're seeing in terms of what 

237
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,320
people are kind of struggling 
with at this moment in time? 

238
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,560
Yeah. 
So when, when I first started in

239
00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:20,560
rescue, like I said about 15 
years ago, it was what I imagine

240
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:23,960
most people think of rescue dogs
as cross breeds. 

241
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,920
It was, you know, bull breeds a 
lot of the time, especially in 

242
00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,000
South Wales, you know, Staffies,
larger bull breeds, American 

243
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,480
Bulldogs, those those sort of 
things. 

244
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They were pretty common. 
And we used to have kind of like

245
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,440
a running joke really. 
That as I said, that the Hope 

246
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,880
rescue that I was volunteering 
with at the time kept some dogs 

247
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from the pounds, but a lot of 
the dogs that they, they ended 

248
00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:46,200
up taking and saving from 
destruction. 

249
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,320
They, they moved to larger 
organisations that could help 

250
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,400
support those re homings. 
And the, the running joke was 

251
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,240
that, you know, you, we'd have a
bog off offer a buy one, get one

252
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,240
free offer. 
So if you take, you take these 

253
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,240
free staffies, we'll, we'll give
you the, the Bichon freeze and 

254
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,200
the Shih Tzu that we've got as 
well. 

255
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,200
Because you had to kind of 
encourage the larger rescues or 

256
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,600
the other organisations to take 
the dogs that they were also 

257
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,120
getting through the door every 
day. 

258
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,400
It's really shifted now. 
I would say now I couldn't tell 

259
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,120
you which breed is most common. 
It's really varied. 

260
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,560
We see a lot more what you would
class as pure breeds. 

261
00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,840
We see a lot more kind of 
recognisable breeds in rescue 

262
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,280
now than we we've had before, 
particularly dogs that struggle 

263
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,240
with medical conditions, 
particularly larger dogs. 

264
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,360
So again, we've already just 
talked touched on that cost of 

265
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,760
living crisis and the effect 
that has. 

266
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,600
And it was really interesting 
because when COVID started, we 

267
00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:45,080
as an industry kind of set up 
for this flood of dogs. 

268
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,040
Yeah. 
People were losing their jobs, 

269
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,440
they were furloughed, They were 
going on. 

270
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,400
We we had all this kind of 
confusion and upset in the 

271
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,960
country and everybody thought 
people are going to start 

272
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,600
relinquishing their dogs and it 
never came. 

273
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,600
In fact, the opposite happened 
and everybody wanted a dog and 

274
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,960
you couldn't keep dogs in 
kennels long enough. 

275
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,400
You know, they were, people were
queuing up at the door to take 

276
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,720
dogs home, which is great and 
had a really positive impact on 

277
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,520
rehoming. 
But the fallout probably came 

278
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,560
about six months later, people 
starting to go back to work, 

279
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,720
people again losing their jobs, 
like cost of living crisis 

280
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,040
kicking in and stuff starting to
go up. 

281
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,400
We then saw those numbers start 
to increase. 

282
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,760
And like you said, that's a as a
continual trend that we've seen.

283
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,600
What we're really seeing at the 
minute across the board and 

284
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,720
across nations, as I mentioned, 
particularly in the States is 

285
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,320
rehoming is going down. 
Less people are looking to get a

286
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,760
dog because of all of that 
financial insecurity, because 

287
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,520
people are having to have more 
poor jobs, they've got less 

288
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,680
time, there's more pressure, 
people are worried like we said,

289
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,400
and relinquishment is going up 
for the same reason. 

290
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,160
So we there's more dogs needing 
our help and there's less people

291
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,480
around help them, which is 
obviously fun place to be in 

292
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,840
rescue because that's kind of 
makes it quite difficult to 

293
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,840
manage. 
A really good example of this is

294
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,600
when I worked at a individual 
centre, we had one Saint Bernard

295
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,200
in the three years that I worked
there. 

296
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,880
When I was in a different role, 
a regional role where we're 

297
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,200
supporting 5 rescue centres, we 
had one in every centre at one 

298
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,200
time in the period about two 
months. 

299
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,360
So, you know, we went from one 
in three years to having five at

300
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,160
the same time. 
So a massive shift in in the 

301
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,600
breeds that we see and yeah, 
so-called designer breeds, 

302
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,320
franchise cockapoos, all of 
those, you know, we see them 

303
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,080
more and more now. 
Being rehomed and within kind of

304
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,800
the networks of rescues that you
work with, do you tell and to 

305
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:46,440
find that they are at capacity? 
Yes, space is a big, a big issue

306
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,160
at the minute. 
And part of the issue as well is

307
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,520
the capacity to care. 
So rather than physical space 

308
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,680
for dogs is having the right 
number of staff to make sure 

309
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,560
dogs are getting the right 
needs. 

310
00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,800
And the dogs are becoming a 
little bit more complicated. 

311
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,120
So like I said, people are 
struggling with their veterinary

312
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,560
costs. 
So the dogs coming in have more 

313
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,520
medical issues, they're 
struggling with their 

314
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,640
resilience. 
So the dogs coming in have more 

315
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,640
behaviour challenges and that 
obviously takes more staff time,

316
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,040
more resources and that puts 
extra pressure on on rescues. 

317
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,040
So space isn't always the the 
problem is, is that resource 

318
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,200
impact as well. 
That being said, we also 

319
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,400
obviously still have amazing 
adopters that come in and take 

320
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:27,920
these jobs and support these 
jobs. 

321
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,920
And as you said, we have bad 
days, but we do have those kind 

322
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,320
of really big wins as well. 
During COVID, we saw a lot of 

323
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,800
the longer term residents go 
home because there was less, 

324
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,520
less dogs to choose from. 
So people were kind of 

325
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,560
considering more options and, 
and some dogs that had been in 

326
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,840
kennels 2-3 years went home and,
and have lived absolutely 

327
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,400
amazingly happy lives since that
period. 

328
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,520
So, you know, it is swings and 
roundabouts, but it's certainly 

329
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,120
a challenging time in shelter 
and esque as it is across the 

330
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,040
board for everybody. 
Yeah, it's, you come across as 

331
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,920
really, really positive, which 
is really, I don't know, 

332
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,760
refreshing considering everyone 
I've spoken to in Rescue and 

333
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,839
also going to Parliament for the
state of UK rescue meeting, I 

334
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:12,400
think towards the end of last 
year. 

335
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,640
Were you there? 
I was there, you were there. 

336
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,280
I probably must have seen you. 
But but yeah, like considering 

337
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,920
everything that's going on in 
the last year and then obviously

338
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,200
more recently now the proposal 
of the new budget, you know, 

339
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,720
kind of costs going up. 
And what's your outlook overall 

340
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,560
about? 
And this is a big question, I 

341
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,000
know that, but like your 
temperature check on the 

342
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,520
direction we're heading and do 
you feel hopeful for the future 

343
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,800
in all honesty? 
And I know that you represent a 

344
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,640
charity and rescue and multiple 
organisations. 

345
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,560
What's your experience or your 
outlook on things because you 

346
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,280
have such a wide exposure to so 
many different cases? 

347
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,120
I think it's challenging, yeah. 
I'm not going to. 

348
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,160
I'm not going to lie. 
It's hard sometimes to see the 

349
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,840
light at the end of the tunnel 
because the pressure is kind of 

350
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,960
coming from a range of sources, 
as we've already talked through.

351
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,400
I think what has been good, what
the silver lining would be is 

352
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,560
maybe it has had to focus 
rescues in to be more 

353
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,040
collaborative. 
You you mentioned the state of 

354
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,040
UK rescue conversation that AP 
dog is having the all 

355
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,040
parliamentary working group for 
dog welfare. 

356
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,960
But also it's changed the way 
that we maybe think about 

357
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,480
rescue. 
And this is something that I've 

358
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,920
always been passionate about. 
Like I said, hope rescue that I 

359
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,840
started with have always is 
being very forward thinking and 

360
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,040
and wide-ranging with their 
approach to rescue. 

361
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,840
The problem is brick and mortar 
rescuing is not the solution to 

362
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,800
this crisis. 
If we build more kennels, we'll 

363
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,280
fill the kennels. 
The problem is we need to think 

364
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,640
about source to see. 
So what I mean by that is rescue

365
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,200
is a reactive industry. 
So we're here to clean up the 

366
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,240
climax, fix the pieces, put 
plasters over things to support 

367
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,520
animal welfare and that that is 
fine. 

368
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,520
And for a lot of years, that was
working because, like I said, 

369
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,720
the number of dogs needed to 
come in and the number of dogs 

370
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,360
needed to go out was fairly 
balanced. 

371
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,240
What we've kind of identified as
an industry now and what we're 

372
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,160
moving towards now is, well, how
do we solve the problem at 

373
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,320
source? 
So that brings up conversations 

374
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,480
like how do we look at ethical 
and appropriate dog acquisition?

375
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,000
So where are our dogs coming 
from? 

376
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,800
How do we make sure breeders are
doing the best job they can to 

377
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,920
produce good puppies? 
How do we hold rescues to higher

378
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,520
standards to make sure the dogs 
who are being rehomed are 

379
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,200
appropriate, not going to good 
homes and going to suitable 

380
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,680
homes, whilst also making sure 
that it isn't massively 

381
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,240
restrictive. 
And I think that that would be a

382
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,120
great topic to dive into in a 
minute is, you know, the 

383
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:42,360
perception of rescues is it's 
really hard to get a dog and 

384
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:46,080
that's not helpful when we're 
seeing less people trying to 

385
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:47,240
adopt. 
You know, we need to be 

386
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,320
welcoming people in and 
supporting them to make the best

387
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,440
decision for their family and 
the dog. 

388
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,920
And we're looking at things like
what legislation exists and how 

389
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,880
is it going? 
So we've just had a massive, 

390
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,920
massive win in the animal 
welfare world with the new bill 

391
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,520
that's going to be coming in, 
which has closed some of the 

392
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,920
loopholes around importing dogs 
with crockties and dogs tails. 

393
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,240
That will impact a lot of dogs 
and welfare. 

394
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,440
And there's a lot of other stuff
as well that I can't remember 

395
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,000
off the top of my head. 
The import of puppies. 

396
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:21,640
Yeah. 
The. 

397
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,000
There's large organisations and 
smaller organisations like Dog 

398
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,400
Stress, Blue Cross, Battersea 
Hope Press have all kind of 

399
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,840
contributed to really push this 
bill through and it's a massive,

400
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,320
massive step in the right 
direction to put animal welfare 

401
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,800
back on the podium in Wales. 
We've seen the kind of campaign 

402
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,680
for the banning greyhound racing
which has been accepted and 

403
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,120
there's dates around that now. 
So we're having to kind of say, 

404
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:49,400
right, rescue is not working as 
it should, we can't continue 

405
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,000
like this to support animal 
welfare. 

406
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,360
How do we feel fix this gap? 
We've talked a few times about 

407
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:57,240
the cost of animals as well. 
What does that look like? 

408
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:03,240
There was a petition by doctors 
last year around reducing VAT 

409
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:06,400
on, there was a couple of years 
ago now, sorry, but reducing VAT

410
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,560
on pet food because people are 
struggling to feed the pet. 

411
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,840
We're seeing a lot more food 
banks and community programmes 

412
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,760
come through organisations like 
Wood Green and Blue Cross and 

413
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,160
we're seeing free behaviour 
advice and free behaviour 

414
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,840
support to support owners and 
keeping pets and owners 

415
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,440
together. 
So rather than owners getting to

416
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,600
the point where they can't hope 
and that has to come into care, 

417
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,080
what is most cost effective for 
a rescue? 

418
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,880
Supporting that owner with food 
for a few weeks or months while 

419
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,080
maybe they've lost their job and
they're looking for a new job or

420
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,840
they've had some new house or 
that animal coming into care and

421
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:45,640
it costing on average about £50 
a day to keep the you know, how 

422
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,280
do we support Veneries care? 
But also how do we again, lobby 

423
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,200
the government to say, and the 
RCVS, the Royal College of 

424
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,600
Energy Surgeons to say, why are 
these prices so high when you 

425
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,720
know, why have we seen this 
massive inflation of venerie 

426
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,920
costs that's led to people not 
doing it? 

427
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,840
And again, holding insurance 
companies to hire a horde as 

428
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,240
well to say, hey, you know, why 
aren't you paying out for these 

429
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,360
conditions? 
And none of that stuff is easy. 

430
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,520
None of it is going to be a 
tomorrow fix. 

431
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,520
But I do think, you know, to 
have better welfare for dogs, to

432
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,440
have a sustainable rescue 
sector, we have to tackle the 

433
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,960
source and not just the sea. 
There'll always be a place for a

434
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,760
rescue and none of us want that 
to go away because there are so 

435
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,120
many genuine people in the world
who their situation changes, 

436
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:34,000
something happens, 
unfortunately, they pass away or

437
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,440
they can't look after that 
animal anymore and want to make 

438
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,040
sure that that animal has a safe
place to go and can successfully

439
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,560
be rehomed to another loving 
home and have a great life after

440
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,240
that initial situation. 
We're not saying that that won't

441
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,960
exist, but if we tackle 
everything around it as well, it

442
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,600
means that actually those dogs 
are coming in all the ones with 

443
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,520
the most need. 
Whereas currently what we're 

444
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,800
seeing is, you know, just 
everything is everything is 

445
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,240
chaos. 
So we're getting all of these 

446
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,440
animals in, rather than just a 
core group that we could support

447
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,800
really well and do a really good
job with quite a long answer. 

448
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,640
There's a lot to do. 
There's so much to do. 

449
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,440
You touched on vet costs and 
insurance and things I don't 

450
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,440
have insurance for do now my 
galgo but just getting her nails

451
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,200
clipped. 
I took her to the vets 3 weeks 

452
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,000
ago, just called, booked a 
little nail clip. 

453
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,320
We were there for all of 5 
minutes. 

454
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,880
They only clipped six of her 
nails because the rest were 

455
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,640
already too short. 
It cost me 36 lbs. 

456
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,320
And so earlier this week, just 
on one of our walks, I spotted 

457
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,000
another vet and I thought, oh 
let me go check. 

458
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,560
Maybe they go maybe a little bit
more affordable and I'll switch 

459
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,360
vets. 2 lbs for a nail clipping.
Do. 

460
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,880
You know, I was just like, how 
how is this possible? 

461
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,360
I am one of the least tight 
people you will know, but 

462
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,440
there's reasonable and there's 
completely unreasonable and that

463
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,760
is such a basic thing. 
I think it is important to say 

464
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,080
at this point as well though 
we're also not demonising vets, 

465
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:05,880
so. 
It's no, it's. 

466
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,080
Also not the vets that are 
setting the prices. 

467
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,640
It's often not the vets that you
know in these conversations. 

468
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,280
It is, is the kind of 
realistically it's the large 

469
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,080
chain corporations that are 
buying small independent 

470
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,480
practises that ends up in the 
price rise happening. 

471
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,480
And it is insurance, we see it 
in America, right in the 

472
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,240
American Health Service, 
everybody's got insurance. 

473
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,920
So the prices go up because the 
insurance pays out. 

474
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,440
There's no hold to accord for 
the prices, which then means if 

475
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,360
you're in a situation where you 
don't have insurance, we then 

476
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:38,600
can't afford to pay pay the 
costs. 

477
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,400
So I think it is really 
important that we acknowledge 

478
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,840
that the in the veterinary 
industry is a bit broken at the 

479
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,960
minute, but it's not. 
We're not demonising the vets 

480
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,360
themselves because they're 
super, they're super important. 

481
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:52,000
Yes. 
And you know, they have their 

482
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,000
own roam challenges going on at 
the moment. 

483
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,320
I think language is important 
and you were correct to mention 

484
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,400
that because when I was talking 
about vets, I wasn't talking 

485
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,080
about the actual vet. 
I was talking about the 

486
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,200
business, the business of the 
vets. 

487
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,320
And so for me, I felt like who 
created this business model, you

488
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,800
know, this is exploitative, this
is not supporting because 

489
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,000
ultimately what they want you to
do is they're trying to push you

490
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,240
into a membership where they get
regular income. 

491
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,080
And I understand that because 
you want a recurring revenue 

492
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,400
model gives you a bit more 
predictability. 

493
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,120
You can plan ahead, you can 
reinvest all sorts of things. 

494
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:27,160
But again, there's reasonable 
and there's not so reasonable. 

495
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,360
And that's just one tiny little 
factor. 

496
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:34,120
So, OK, we've touched on cost 
now as kind of being a factor of

497
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,080
why people are giving up their 
they're animals. 

498
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,320
It's very real and a difficult 
decision to make. 

499
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:44,960
But what about have you seen 
things around behaviour and 

500
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,400
specifically, you know, 
challenging behaviours in urban 

501
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,960
environments and expectations 
placed on dogs in urban 

502
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,880
environments? 
Talk me through some of the 

503
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,840
things that you've been or 
perhaps cases, challenges that 

504
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,040
you've been working on and maybe
more recently. 

505
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,000
Yeah, definitely. 
So yes, I would say there's a 

506
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,400
lot of change. 
Like we said, there was a 

507
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,480
massive increase in the, in the 
number of dogs owned in this 

508
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,080
country. 
It's, it's not hugely clear from

509
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,160
the data, but we're definitely 
seeing an increase in dogs. 

510
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,040
More households have dogs than, 
you know, for a large period of 

511
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,040
time before. 
And that last puts extra 

512
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,440
pressure. 
We're also seeing more built up 

513
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,400
areas than before. 
So people are changing the way 

514
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,280
they walk dogs, right. 
So we, we said earlier about how

515
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,480
a lot of the time dogs are just 
kind of left to it. 

516
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,200
Or if you live in kind of like a
rural area or a different area, 

517
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,080
you don't spend the majority of 
their walk off lead. 

518
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,840
They have much more autonomy. 
They've got much more choice 

519
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,360
about who they interact with, 
who they don't interact with, 

520
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:43,760
what they get up to. 
They're more fulfilled at the 

521
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,920
end of it. 
So when we then take dogs and 

522
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,920
put them in kind of flats or 
smaller situations, or like we 

523
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,160
said, people are working more 
hours or people are having to 

524
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,160
commute more and they have less 
time, that that's when we start 

525
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,840
to see challenges emerge because
you know, there's more dogs to 

526
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:00,920
see. 
You're on the lead. 

527
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,640
So you've got less choice, 
you're more frustrated. 

528
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,520
Owners maybe try and put you 
into situations because they 

529
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,160
want you to interact with other 
dogs, for example, they want you

530
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,400
to interact with people. 
I was in a city centre last week

531
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,040
with a colleague of mine 
actually. 

532
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,000
So both behaviour minded and 
yeah, there was this little 

533
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,680
dachshund who was kind of 
punched right, right under a 

534
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,880
bench like this because a little
girl was trying to say hello to 

535
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,560
her and the owner was going come
on, come on. 

536
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,320
So it's such a big part of 
animal behaviour. 

537
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,320
Probably the biggest part is our
understanding of a dog's, how 

538
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,960
they're communicating what they 
do and understanding that 

539
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,360
actually no behaviour is 
problematic. 

540
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,240
What it is, is a challenge in 
the environment that it's in. 

541
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,520
So we don't have bad behaviour. 
Nearly all dog behaviour is 

542
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,000
natural behaviour that they're 
designed to do through their 

543
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,000
genetics, through their 
learning, through their 

544
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,960
experience. 
But it poses a challenge to us 

545
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,640
because of course, none of us 
want a dog who's barking and 

546
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,360
lounging of dogs. 
Nobody wants a dog who maybe is 

547
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:01,000
using their teeth to, to say, 
can I have a little bit more 

548
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,440
spades please? 
We're not saying that dogs 

549
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,800
shouldn't fit into our life. 
We need to understand some of 

550
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,920
those challenges. 
So if we think about that, that 

551
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,400
apartment block, like we just 
said, dogs don't know that 

552
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,680
noises are coming from above the
man below them. 

553
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,360
There must be really off 
putting, really confusing. 

554
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:19,720
And, and one of the big things 
for me that clicked with this, 

555
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,440
there was an episode of Victoria
Stillwell's It's Me or the Dog 

556
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,640
where she's working with two 
Chihuahuas. 

557
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,640
And I talk about this all the 
time. 

558
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,640
And she makes the owners lie 
down on the floor and says, look

559
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,240
how scary the world is when 
you're 2 foot tall. 

560
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,760
It all lasts is a Chihuahua. 
And, you know, and that's such a

561
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,880
big part of working with dog 
behaviours, helping owners to 

562
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,280
understand why the dog feels 
like this, why they're behaving 

563
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,600
the way they behave. 
And then looking at how do we 

564
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,400
adapt that so they feel better 
in themselves, they feel more 

565
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,720
comfortable, and therefore 
they're not needing to show 

566
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,040
these behaviours that we're 
maybe concerned about or 

567
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,360
problematic. 
Other examples of that is, you 

568
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,080
know, as we said with the flat, 
the scary metal box that eats 

569
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,480
you in the end of the corridor, 
right? 

570
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,680
An elevator where the doors 
open, you walk into this box and

571
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,720
then all of a sudden you appear 
in a new place. 

572
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,120
How strange for a dog. 
So that's, that's part of it is 

573
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,440
the environments we've kind of 
moved dogs into is so different 

574
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,840
from before where, you know, you
kind of had a lot more space 

575
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,120
around you. 
And then as we kind of touched 

576
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,520
on earlier, the big, big 
difference is expectation. 

577
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,920
The expectation of what a dog is
meant to be and meant to do has 

578
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,320
massively shifted and even how 
we hold them to account compared

579
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,920
to other animals. 
So there's no, there's no other 

580
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,920
animal, including ourselves that
we expect to only go to the 

581
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,960
toilet when, when somebody lets 
them out to go or somebody takes

582
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,360
them on a walk. 
So cats, majority of cats have 

583
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,040
litter boxes if they don't have 
outdoor access, you know, our 

584
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,960
small ferries all have bedding 
and you know, appropriate 

585
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,480
bedding that they can toilet in 
and we clean out. 

586
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,840
But with our dogs, we kind of 
expect them to be in the house 

587
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,960
for six hours and not have 
access to toilet. 

588
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,040
So even that one simple thing is
really interesting, how we 

589
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,960
approach that as a society. 
Quick sidestep. 

590
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,760
So when I was doing my research,
I learned that actually you 

591
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,280
travel across the world to do 
conferences and training and 

592
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,840
things like that. 
And one of the things that I saw

593
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,080
was a suggestion around 
medication, which I thought was 

594
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,320
really interesting in terms of 
behavioural plans. 

595
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,240
And so I would love for you to 
kind of touch on that because my

596
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,560
first instinct was, Oh no, let's
not start drugging out dogs so 

597
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,720
that they're more compliant. 
I would love for you to go into 

598
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,560
it and kind of explain the 
thinking behind that because I 

599
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,080
know that that was geared 
towards the industry and this 

600
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,200
podcast is geared towards both 
people already working with dogs

601
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,200
but also regular dog people like
myself. 

602
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,360
So help me understand what you 
meant by that. 

603
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,160
Yeah, definitely. 
It's a it's a great conversation

604
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,480
that I'm just going to slightly 
have the act to start with by 

605
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,160
saying I'm not a vet. 
So any conversations around the 

606
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,240
appropriateness of medication, 
you know, should be done with 

607
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,400
veterinarian so that they can 
obviously prescribe and consider

608
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,920
things appropriately. 
But it's definitely, you know, 

609
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,640
something we can dive into. 
I think again, this is something

610
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,160
that the perception is changing 
and in my opinion, it's changing

611
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,640
for the better. 
And part of the concerns around 

612
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,080
the use of medication that 
affects a dog's behaviour or or 

613
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,440
supports a dog's behaviour is 
there's a lot of kind of 

614
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:33,200
misinformation or concerns from 
older information basically. 

615
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,480
So often lots of practitioners, 
including those working 

616
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,440
actually, including those 
working with owners alongside of

617
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,440
that or a veterinary 
behaviourist will use behaviour 

618
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,240
medication. 
But medication that affects the 

619
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,040
train to support training and 
behaviour plan. 

620
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,760
And that's the first very 
important part is medication is 

621
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,440
always a adjunct to behaviour 
modification plan. 

622
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,920
It's not going to fix any 
problems by itself and that's 

623
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,880
not what we're looking to do. 
But we have situations where 

624
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,640
either the environment is very 
difficult to control. 

625
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,840
We're unable to change things to
to make that dog comfortable or 

626
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,640
get them in a place where they 
can learn successfully. 

627
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,680
There's some situations where 
and learning is, is really well 

628
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,160
established. 
You know, the dogs had a certain

629
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,360
behaviour for a large period of 
time or where there's kind of 

630
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,560
big changes happening in the 
brain. 

631
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,280
The dogs maybe had what some 
people would consider sort of 

632
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,120
trauma responses or really 
negative experiences that are 

633
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,840
hard to, to help that I'll go 
overcome just through training 

634
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,480
and just through behaviour 
modification. 

635
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,000
So we have certain medications 
that affect the brain in a 

636
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,120
positive way and normally look 
to these things like dopamine, 

637
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,440
erotonin, things that make us 
feel good in our self. 

638
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,040
And it is quite interesting and 
we'll swing back to it. 

639
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,000
It's quite interesting as well. 
But our perception in the UK is,

640
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,440
is often very different to other
countries because I think 

641
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,560
medication is pretty taboo in 
the UK generally, right? 

642
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,320
We don't often, we probably 
don't know how many of our 

643
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,920
friends are on antidepressant 
medication or similar sort of 

644
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,800
medication because we just don't
really talk about like mental 

645
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,640
health as a society for people, 
let alone or animals in other 

646
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,320
countries where it is a lot more
common. 

647
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,280
You see behaviour medication 
being used a lot more, at least 

648
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,040
talked about a lot more. 
So that's one consideration for 

649
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,800
us to have. 
But I mentioned earlier about 

650
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,440
some of the misconceptions and 
some at times we hear comments 

651
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,560
like, you know, we don't want 
our dog to be a zombie. 

652
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,440
We don't want to change their 
personality that we don't want 

653
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,840
them to be day year. 
We don't want them to change. 

654
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,520
And that's totally right. 
I don't want that Iver if if I'm

655
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,200
working with a vet to have it. 
And that comes from a mixture of

656
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,560
things. 
You know, some of the older 

657
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,720
medication that used to be used 
was not as good as the 

658
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,280
medication that we have now. 
It has different properties, it 

659
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,280
does different things. 
And you did sort of see these 

660
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,000
kind of zombie dogs and that's 
not what we're going for. 

661
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,200
What we're aiming for is to 
create a environment for the dog

662
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,000
where they can learn, they can 
change how they feel and they 

663
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,520
can improve welfare. 
So my view of it, not everybody 

664
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,280
agrees with this view, but my 
view of it is certainly if we've

665
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,560
got a dog who's painful, we'll 
use something like pain relief 

666
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,000
to improve welfare temporarily 
whilst we also look at resolving

667
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,719
the problem. 
Why would we not use something 

668
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,040
that can improve welfare to 
support a dog as long as all of 

669
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,960
the right plans are in place? 
It's not a perfect science and 

670
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,480
sometimes there's tweaking and 
changing that needs to be done 

671
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,320
to get our medication right. 
And that's why it's really 

672
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,880
important that you do work with 
a veterinarian and a 

673
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,440
behaviourist. 
You can work together to kind of

674
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,880
get the best plan possible for 
that dog. 

675
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,719
But I've used medication in a 
range of cases where it has 

676
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,480
saved that dog's life. 
And then I've used, you know, 

677
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,800
there's other cases which are 
really similar where we haven't 

678
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,800
reached the medication for a 
range of reasons. 

679
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,080
So it's definitely not a, you 
know, every dog should should be

680
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,320
on drugs. 
There's definitely no, we should

681
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,800
never reach for this or this 
should be a last resort because 

682
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,760
it's just a tool in our toolbox.
Like everything else that we do,

683
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:11,720
whether we're using a clicker or
trade treats versus a toy, 

684
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:15,040
whatever the situation is, we're
always kind of looking for that 

685
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,880
individual approach. 
I think a big thing and a big 

686
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,000
similarity that we are seeing 
with the NHS currently and our 

687
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,280
veterinary industry is the 
relationship based approach. 

688
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,320
And that's disappearing for for 
range of reasons that is not in 

689
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,680
control of the practitioners on 
either side. 

690
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,440
But gone are the days where you 
had a family GP who saw you as a

691
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,560
baby and stayed pretty much with
you the whole time and probably 

692
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,040
helped you with your babies. 
And they know your history. 

693
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,520
They know, you know, 
conversations that you've had in

694
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,200
the past, you talk about things 
regularly because you see the 

695
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,800
same doctor every time. 
Touchwood I I'm not, I'll very 

696
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,160
often. 
I don't have to speak to my GP 

697
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,160
very much at all. 
And about probably four or five 

698
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,680
years in into living in Devon, I
had to have a phone call with 

699
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,360
the GP for something common, but
it was nothing major. 

700
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,400
And the, the doctor that rang me
said, you know, my name's Doctor

701
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,280
so and so I actually think I'm 
your GP. 

702
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:10,440
And I was like, oh, I've never 
met you. 

703
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,200
And, and it's such a strange 
idea really. 

704
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,680
And, and veterinary is going the
same because again, of large 

705
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,040
corporates and they're not being
enough. 

706
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,240
That's because they're generally
is not an effects, particularly 

707
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:24,560
in rural areas. 
It means that often we're having

708
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,120
to see locums or we're seeing 
different vets that we don't 

709
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,120
have and we don't have a 
consistency of care. 

710
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,520
So you don't build a rapport 
with your vet, you don't build a

711
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,680
relationship. 
And that does affect trust, 

712
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,120
which is what you've just 
mentioned, but it also affects 

713
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,800
the vets judgement because they 
literally making decisions based

714
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,760
on 10 minutes of consultation. 
And that is where kind of the 

715
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,680
power professional approach 
helps. 

716
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,720
So like I said, working with 
behaviourists, working with 

717
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:53,320
physios, working with farriers, 
if it's horses, all of these 

718
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,360
people that contribute to the 
welfare of an animal, if they 

719
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,800
work together, then that 
information is just better. 

720
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,520
The decision making is better. 
All of these things are better. 

721
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,440
So, you know, my ideal, if I 
could change the world tomorrow 

722
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,280
answer is that we just had one 
consistent that pretty much for 

723
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,880
for the entire life of a animal 
who we could speak to regularly 

724
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,960
if we had any concerns. 
And every example of that 

725
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,440
actually, whilst on the subject 
is our dog. 

726
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,400
What did she eat? 
Our dog ate some chocolate. 

727
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,680
She never normally eats 
chocolate and but she did get 

728
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,120
access to some and my partner 
was really quite worried. 

729
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,880
And through our insurance we've 
got access to like one of the, 

730
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,280
you know, the vets on call. 
And it was amazing because we 

731
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,080
did half a stand at night and we
put it into the app and it said,

732
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,320
yeah, that will ring you back. 
It was a fully qualified there 

733
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,480
and she was sat on her sofa and 
we were Facetiming and we just 

734
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,720
had a conversation about, you 
know, how much chocolate the dog

735
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:50,400
had eaten. 
And then it was very minimal. 

736
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,800
It wasn't a concern at all and 
it was great. 

737
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,360
What a great conversation. 
And that was like a bit chatty 

738
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,400
even though it was like half 10 
and I and then they were like, 

739
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:00,680
yeah, bring us back any 
problems. 

740
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,560
As you said, if we're paying 36 
lbs for a nail clip, how much 

741
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,240
would that conversation have 
cost if it wasn't a free service

742
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:09,880
through our insurance company or
wherever we get it? 

743
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,200
I think it is our insurance 
company. 

744
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,080
So if I could change the world 
tomorrow, I think having more of

745
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:19,120
a relationship model of health 
would hugely improve things both

746
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,680
for the vets and, and for our 
GPS and whatnot. 

747
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,320
But in the meantime, thinking 
about how we use 

748
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,920
paraprofessionals and part of 
the challenge is waiting and 

749
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,280
people not waiting because in 
some cases, not all cases, but 

750
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,640
in some cases, if we tackle 
behaviour challenges early on, 

751
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,400
then we don't need to reach for 
behaviour medication because we 

752
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,720
give the dog appropriate 
strategies before the problem 

753
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:44,840
becomes too, too big. 
Similar with health conditions, 

754
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,600
one of the biggest issues that 
we're seeing with the rosterize 

755
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,480
is people are putting off going 
to the vets because they they 

756
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,720
don't have the money. 
So they wait and they wait and 

757
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:56,320
the wait and the dog gets worse 
and worse and worse. 

758
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,520
And then when you come to treat 
the problem, it costs you 3 or 4

759
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,400
times the amount because one 
week course of antibiotics is 

760
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,560
now turned into a surgery 
overnight stay in the emergency.

761
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,520
That's because you've waited and
now it's 12O clock on a Sunday 

762
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,920
evening or whatever pushes 
pressure to right. 

763
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,440
Because if the vets are having 
these emergency consults, they 

764
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,120
take up more time. 
So then your next patients like 

765
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,400
volleyball. 
And that's how like as you said,

766
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,600
when we're in a money creating 
scheme, that's why our vet 

767
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,200
appointments are like 10 minutes
and the vets don't have times to

768
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,480
write notes because they're all 
smushed together. 

769
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,080
And I think that's the biggest, 
biggest challenge is everybody 

770
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,560
is just under so much pressure 
that it's, it's almost 

771
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,680
impossible to look out. 
And that's why having a 2 hour 

772
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,560
behaviour consultation with a 
behaviourist, you can then have 

773
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,280
a conversation with your vet and
say, hey, these are the 

774
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,840
challenges I think this client's
facing with the dog. 

775
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,080
You know, how can we create a 
one health plan? 

776
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,760
That's often the phrase you hear
now, a one health plan to 

777
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,880
support this dog. 
And that versus going into the 

778
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,720
vet, it sees you for 10 minutes 
and then might like you said, go

779
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,600
try this medication because it 
gets you out of the door and 

780
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,520
they can see the next client. 
And as we've said throughout it,

781
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,960
that's not the vet's fault, but 
these are the. 

782
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,960
The situations that we're all 
being put into. 

783
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,120
The more conversations we have 
and the more transparency there 

784
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,840
is, the easier it is to see the 
landscape of what we're dealing 

785
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,480
with because there will be some 
solutions that can overlap 

786
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,240
various issues. 
But unless people talk about it,

787
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,920
you know, it doesn't, they don't
come to the surface. 

788
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,400
For me, for example, as simple 
as getting the dog's nails 

789
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,040
clipped. 
Had no idea. 

790
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,960
That's how much things cost. 
And it's, it's, it's really 

791
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,560
bizarre because when something 
like that shapes the person, 

792
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,320
person's decision making going 
forward, there's a lot of 

793
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,320
different things that you start 
thinking, OK, what else don't I 

794
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,720
know? 
And how can I be more prepared? 

795
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,800
So these things, they really 
matter. 

796
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,480
Let's, let's think of a lighter,
I guess, story. 

797
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,440
Think of a dog, an experience 
that you've had with a dog that 

798
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,640
taught you something about 
yourself. 

799
00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:08,240
Yeah. 
Really, really great question. 

800
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:10,600
I think it's hard to answer 
because they all do. 

801
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,760
That's that's the problem. 
There's obviously dogs that 

802
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,560
stick with you. 
When you work in rescue, you 

803
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,480
always have that one dog that 
you do struggle to let go of. 

804
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,440
Or we often talk in rescues that
use foster homes. 

805
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,120
We often talk about failed 
fostering, which is such a 

806
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:30,280
strange, such a strange phrase 
because it basically means that 

807
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,880
you've been fostering this dog 
and you've fallen in love and 

808
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,080
you've decided to keep the dog 
in the conversation. 

809
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,720
You said you're currently kind 
of going through in your, your 

810
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:42,080
mind and it's labelled as failed
fostering because it often means

811
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,760
you can't foster again. 
But it's, it's not a failure 

812
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,960
because that dog has found an 
amazing helmet and you found an 

813
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,040
amazing or the persons found an 
amazing dog. 

814
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,640
So all of the dogs that we work 
with impact us and, and make us 

815
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,680
reflect on ourselves. 
I've definitely been in 

816
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,440
situations where I've been 
really frustrated and really 

817
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,040
struggled because you just think
I just wish you'd speak English.

818
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,520
I just wish you would not bark 
at that person and then you 

819
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,120
would get home much quicker and 
just wish you could do this or 

820
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,280
that or not do this. 
And then I've also had times 

821
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,400
where I'm just amazed by how 
resilient dogs are, how they can

822
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,600
go through these negative 
experiences and come out the 

823
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,080
other side. 
I remember one of the first dogs

824
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,240
that I fostered really early on,
like like when I was in my teens

825
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,280
and still living at home, we had
this farm colleague called Toby 

826
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,840
and he had a broken leg and he 
came from the vest in this 

827
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,560
ridiculous cast that was kind of
up to his shoulder and bright 

828
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:36,760
red. 
It was massive. 

829
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,560
And we only, we only had him 
overnight so that he didn't have

830
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,560
to be in tunnels and he jumped 
the garden fence. 

831
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,240
And I just remember thinking 
like, how easy is it? 

832
00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:47,680
Sorry, I missed part of the 
story. 

833
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,800
That's quite important. 
So the part of the story that 

834
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,760
I've missed is the reason he, 
the reason that he came into the

835
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,360
rescue was he was a farm 
colleague. 

836
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,600
He'd broken his leg and the 
farmer didn't want to treat him.

837
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,080
So the farmer took him to be put
to sleep and the very wrong the 

838
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,880
rescue and said, Hey, you know, 
we've got this lovely dog to 

839
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,160
you. 
Could you foot the bill 

840
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,960
essentially? 
Could you pay for the the 

841
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,840
repair? 
Which obviously they said yes, 

842
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,680
the dog came to us overnight. 
So this idea that this dog 

843
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,840
jumped the fence in and also, I 
don't know what he was thinking,

844
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,320
but in my opinion, the attempts 
to get back to that farmer, to 

845
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,160
that owner, to that sort of life
that they knew, even though he'd

846
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,640
basically been abandoned. 
And I think we're so lucky with 

847
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,840
dogs and we're so privileged to 
have dogs, cats over animals 

848
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,320
that just love us 
unconditionally, even though 

849
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,440
they might go through these 
these horrible experiences. 

850
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,080
And like he said, rescue can be 
a very dark and difficult place 

851
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,840
at times where you see things 
like on nights and on great. 

852
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,440
And as animal lovers, we would 
hope to never see, but we also 

853
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,720
see the recovery of those dogs. 
And there's so many dogs where, 

854
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,800
you know, you go into that canal
and they they're pressing 

855
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,400
themselves against the wall. 
They're so scared about the 

856
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,880
environment that I mean, even if
nothing bad happened to them, 

857
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,680
you know, like tunnels are not a
nice place for animals to be. 

858
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,760
And then, you know, two days 
later, three days later, they're

859
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,400
kind of sat on your lap. 
They're, they're loving you. 

860
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,840
And it's just, it's an amazing 
feeling. 

861
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,200
And I think This is why we are a
nation of dog clubbers because 

862
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,560
they give back so much. 
And all of the hardships that we

863
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,680
talked about during this episode
just makes it worthwhile, 

864
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,320
doesn't it? 
When you see that wagy tail when

865
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,200
you walk in, whether it's a 
kennel or your house, you see 

866
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,640
that nice wagy tail in the 
morning or when you get home 

867
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:32,400
from work and you just have this
amazing friend that yeah, loves 

868
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:33,920
you unconditionally. 
Things that they. 

869
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,400
I think the big thing is, as we 
talked about earlier, that the 

870
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,960
dogs can't speak coming. 
So we really have to shift to 

871
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,600
thinking about what that 
individual is experiencing and 

872
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,000
particularly as a behaviourist, 
help owners to understand that 

873
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,720
to you. 
And I do think that changes how 

874
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:54,440
you then approach things with 
people because even though we 

875
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,760
can communicate and we can 
speak, we're often not the best 

876
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,080
at actually showing how we're 
feeling, what our concerns are. 

877
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,920
So I think how we approach this 
kind of conversations with dogs 

878
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,840
and the learning that we take 
from dogs then effects how we do

879
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,120
that with people. 
Because you get that read of, 

880
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,840
well, you're saying this, but 
your behaviour is telling me 

881
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,560
this or I'm not sure that's 
right. 

882
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,760
So when you say about, you know,
how we approach relationships 

883
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,480
and things, I think I think that
is massively influential in, in 

884
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,840
how I approach things because 
I'm so used to working with 

885
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,800
these animals where you're 
trying to kind of understand 

886
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,880
what's going on. 
And often I think we have to do 

887
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:33,560
that just as much with people. 
100% but you're not necessarily 

888
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,960
working with 60 people at any 
given time, as I've read that 

889
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,640
you've done with dogs. 
Yeah. 

890
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,200
So yeah, yeah, yeah, with great 
difficulty. 

891
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,520
Obviously it's never an 
individual thing either. 

892
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,520
There's there's teams of people 
helping you out. 

893
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:54,120
But yeah, that is part of the 
fun element of rescue, I guess 

894
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,040
is how it differs to more 
private behaviour work is you 

895
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,800
tend to have, you know, a couple
of clients. 

896
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,440
But yeah, rescue, you're walking
in the morning and you're just 

897
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,440
putting out fires is how it 
often feels like there's dogs 

898
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,320
everywhere. 
And maybe you had a perfectly 

899
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,800
planned day and now, you know, 
an emergency has come in or 

900
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,040
something, what's happened? 
Or being a dog fly and your 

901
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,200
whole day just goes to poop. 
You have you have to kind of 

902
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,360
rethink about your whole day. 
So it's always kind of 

903
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,720
challenging and moving. 
And that is part of the 

904
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:24,000
excitement and the joy as well. 
No day is ever the same. 

905
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,840
It never looks the same and you 
end up doing a range of 

906
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,200
different things. 
And yeah, having really good 

907
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,360
notes is the good answer to 
trying to remember everything 

908
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,080
just doesn't work. 
So having a great To Do List and

909
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,560
knowing what you did last time 
so you can improve on it this 

910
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,400
time definitely help. 
I don't know what how many 

911
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,240
systems do people use in rescue?
Do you do you have the CRM or? 

912
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,440
ADRM yeah, it's, it's really 
varied. 

913
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:48,840
There's a lot of different 
software. 

914
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,560
And then as you said, it's 
getting better and better at 

915
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,360
being used. 
But yeah, we do have CRMS for 

916
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,320
for our dogs to collect all of 
that information because again, 

917
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,720
there's so much happening in the
medical history, the behaviour 

918
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:02,680
and what I never you're asking 
earlier about, you know, how 

919
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,560
things are changing. 
Another big shift that we're 

920
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:10,720
doing is, is before we used to 
sort of look at behaviours like 

921
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:13,840
this static point of time. 
So more like a photo, you know, 

922
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,640
like the dog did this when I 
introduced him to this person. 

923
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,200
How we're moving now is much 
more observational. 

924
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,840
So rescues are trying to get 
better, just really 

925
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,640
understanding who that dog is, 
how they react in all of these 

926
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:29,280
different situations to create 
that profile for the dogs so 

927
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,400
that when you then match them to
a home is going to be as good a 

928
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,160
fit as possible. 
Versus, you know, before where 

929
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,080
we used to put a dog into a 
situation and then say, right, 

930
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,720
OK, well, when I introduced them
to this dog, they bark they so 

931
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:44,320
they must not like up the dogs. 
Well, actually, what happens 

932
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,360
when we go on a walk? 
What happens when we do this? 

933
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,120
When we do that, it's much more 
about collecting information. 

934
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,720
And then we can probably spend 
another hour talking about 

935
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:54,280
technology like you've just 
mentioned, because there's, 

936
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:58,600
there's a lot of work when my 
friends is currently doing their

937
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,080
PhD on how we can use our facial
intelligence to help us with 

938
00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:05,320
welfare. 
Because dogs, dogs in rescue 

939
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,840
spending probably 23 hours a day
in the kennel by themselves. 

940
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:11,920
That's a hell of a lot of 
information that we're just 

941
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,080
missing out of because nobody's 
got time to sit and watch all of

942
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:17,160
that. 
So you know, what happens if we 

943
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,600
film the dog? 
What can AI do to tell us about 

944
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,200
that information to to capture 
the struggles, the positives 

945
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,840
that the good things are 
happening so that we can 

946
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,760
continue to kind of improve 
welfare? 

947
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,800
That's fascinating. 
Oh my God, I can see challenges 

948
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,560
already. 
It was like foldy, foldy faced 

949
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,560
dogs and like being able to 
actually read what they're 

950
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,960
experiencing, the challenges 
around that. 

951
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,200
Do you spend more time in 
consulting at the moment or 

952
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,720
working with rescues? 
And also, where do you, where 

953
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:51,920
are you happiest at this moment 
in time? 

954
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,800
And where can you add the most 
value at this moment in time? 

955
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,320
Yeah, that's another really nice
question. 

956
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:03,120
And so currently most of my time
is going to a staff development.

957
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:06,240
So improving knowledge, 
improving skill within 

958
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:09,400
organisations and staff and 
volunteers. 

959
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,320
Because you know, the better we 
are when we're working with 

960
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,520
dogs, the better opportunities 
they can have, the better 

961
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,960
welfare they're going to have. 
And kind of realise, you know, I

962
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,160
love, I love working with dogs. 
Obviously, I would happily go 

963
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,440
back to a centre tomorrow, but 
I'm also really passionate about

964
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,240
developing people and, and 
giving people the right tools. 

965
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:31,440
The kind of motto for my, my 
business is empowering rescues 

966
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,720
to improve behavioural health. 
So a big focus of mine is how do

967
00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:38,360
I take my experience, what I've 
learned from others and how do I

968
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,160
impart that. 
So again, we can improve welfare

969
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,240
on a bigger scale because 
there's only so much you can do 

970
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:46,000
as one person. 
But you know, if we continue to 

971
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,000
raise standards as an industry, 
we're going to do do a lot 

972
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,840
better for dogs. 
So that's kind of a big, the big

973
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,360
passion of mine at the minute, 
even though I also love going 

974
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,680
and getting that dog out of the 
kennel and and seeing the 

975
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,120
improvements that they can make 
while you're working with them. 

976
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,960
What's the mix at the moment? 
Pardon. 

977
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,040
Oh, you do less of it, but but. 
0%. 

978
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,840
Really interesting because I 
found that like my career 

979
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,880
marketing when I was working as 
a head of marketing, some some 

980
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,400
of the more technical hands on 
things, you kind of deal 

981
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:20,280
slightly more on the management 
and the strategy side. 

982
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,160
And so less on this kind of 
technical. 

983
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,560
And I felt that like by kind of 
taking my finger off the pulse 

984
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,440
of the actual, the tactical side
of things, I felt personally 

985
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,400
that I was being left behind. 
And so I went back to the 

986
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,280
tactical because I get a lot 
more feedback and a lot more joy

987
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,760
through the creation process. 
Is that something that you would

988
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,440
deal with in the Dogwood world 
or would your career of 15 plus 

989
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,360
years kind of make up for that? 
It's the people that change. 

990
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,560
The dogs are the same. 
So that's another topic that we 

991
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,080
could probably spend an hour 
discussing is, you know, have 

992
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,480
dogs changed as well as people? 
But no, you're totally right. 

993
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,360
Like it's a skill set and every 
day is a learning day and we're 

994
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,080
always continually approving. 
And I, I don't for the second 

995
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,920
thing, I still feel 
uncomfortable when people call 

996
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,640
me an expert because I just 
think there's so much we don't 

997
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:14,840
know that it feels a strange 
situation to be in. 

998
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,440
But yeah, it is a challenge. 
And obviously I am conscious of 

999
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:19,920
that. 
And that's why I'm really lucky 

1000
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,920
to work with a range of 
organisations. 

1001
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,600
And that does mean that, you 
know, I, I can't spend time 

1002
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,040
going in and travelling. 
And as you mentioned earlier on,

1003
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,200
I've been really lucky to go to 
like Bulgaria and different 

1004
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,480
places to Spain with the Galgos 
to. 

1005
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,520
Really. 
Please tell me about. 

1006
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,360
That so a couple of years ago 
and to Galgos to Soul, which is 

1007
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,440
an amazing organisation outside 
of Mercier Mercier region of 

1008
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,040
Spain and do some staff training
there. 

1009
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,720
But also work with the some of 
the dogs was super cool because 

1010
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:53,000
you've got to keep your hand in 
as well for the skills. 

1011
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:57,320
But also I think my big passion 
in staff training is helping 

1012
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,960
people to do it then and there. 
So you know the improvements 

1013
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:02,000
that we can make by saying try 
this. 

1014
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,480
What do you think about that? 
Let's do this and that's what 

1015
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,360
the majority of my role has been
for the last six years, but 

1016
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,720
before it slightly changed in 
the summer, in two weeks time 

1017
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:14,440
I'm going to a Shrewsbury, a 
rescue in Shrewsbury and we're 

1018
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:18,160
going to do some dog mixing to 
build staff's confidence and 

1019
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,120
introducing dogs to other dogs, 
which is my all time favourite 

1020
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,320
part of working in rescue. 
When you find 2 dogs who 

1021
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:27,880
struggling, may be struggling a 
little bit in kennels, so 

1022
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,200
they're a bit worried about the 
situation that they've ended up 

1023
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,440
in. 
And they, they go into a field 

1024
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,800
and they play together. 
And you just see that kind of 

1025
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,520
pure joy that comes from the two
dogs playing together with, with

1026
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,200
no boundaries. 
Because you know, humans, we 

1027
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,560
lose our ability to play very 
early on. 

1028
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,640
And yeah, it's just my favourite
thing to see is when you get it 

1029
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,800
right and the dogs get on. 
So hopefully we'll have some 

1030
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,520
really great success in two 
weeks and that will really boost

1031
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,880
their confidence to to continue 
to do that. 

1032
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,000
That sounds incredible, dogs 
playing together and free 

1033
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,440
running dogs. 
Like just no harness, no 

1034
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,360
nothing. 
Just legging it for a field or a

1035
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:04,840
forest. 
It's just magic. 

1036
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,800
It is how it should be, or at 
least in my opinion. 

1037
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,600
But yeah, it's magical to 
witness. 

1038
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,680
I hope all goes well for you. 
Did Where did you say that was 

1039
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:13,320
going to be? 
Shrews. 

1040
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,360
Shrews. 
Shrewsbury, yeah. 

1041
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:18,800
What country is that? 
Yeah, yeah. 

1042
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,800
Not quite as enjoy. 
Gonna get my waterproofs out I 

1043
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,680
think. 
Yeah, it will definitely be wet,

1044
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,000
right. 
So we are running slightly 

1045
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,160
overtime. 
So maybe one more question. 

1046
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,600
Yep, that's perfect. 
I think in the dog world 

1047
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,840
sometimes, especially you can, 
you can be exposed to so many 

1048
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,440
things that feel unfair, like 
injustice. 

1049
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,120
You know, we've touched on a 
couple of things, but there's 

1050
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,840
actually a whole host of other 
issues and challenges in the dog

1051
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,480
world that we haven't touched 
on. 

1052
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,440
So in your day-to-day, those 
things, it can all come at a 

1053
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,040
cost. 
Personally, mentally, 

1054
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,680
emotionally, physically. 
What do you do to keep your 

1055
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,200
edges soft and kind of keep 
going? 

1056
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,200
Yes, I think it's a great place 
to discuss actually, because 

1057
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,200
probably a couple of years ago I
was pretty burned out and I 

1058
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,240
actually hadn't really realised,
but it was talking to a friend 

1059
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:08,320
that made me kind of click or 
somebody's not quite right here.

1060
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,520
What I found for myself was I 
was like getting in my work from

1061
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,640
driving to my sentences on 
autopilot, not really thinking 

1062
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,840
about it, spending the day 
there, not really thinking about

1063
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,720
coming back and, you know, just 
just in a routine. 

1064
00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:22,720
And like I said, Henry knows. 
But I think the big thing for me

1065
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:25,920
is having a good support network
around you, having friends, 

1066
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,200
family, spending time outside of
dogs, particularly if we're a 

1067
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,120
dog professional, we're, we're 
pretty bad at doing that because

1068
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,200
our downtime is going out of our
own dog or doing agility or 

1069
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:37,800
doing, you know, whatever you 
like to do. 

1070
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,000
And that's great, but I do think
it's important that we also have

1071
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,360
time away from dogs. 
It's also about speaking to 

1072
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,240
people. 
We said earlier on that as a 

1073
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:48,720
nation we're not great at 
talking about how we feel and 

1074
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,000
our experiences and things. 
And I think it's important that 

1075
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,280
we do speak to people who can 
get it and just get it out. 

1076
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,760
And it's also just having things
that you'd love that refill your

1077
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,080
cup. 
So for me, it's anything to do 

1078
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,360
with the sea or war. 
I'm an absolute war baby. 

1079
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,640
I love it. 
I'm super lucky mommy and my 

1080
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,800
partner moved house in January 
and we we can see the sea from 

1081
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,280
our house now. 
We literally live across a car 

1082
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,120
park and then we're in the sea 
and I swim a paddle board, I 

1083
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,560
dive, I serve pretty much 
anything that's in the water is 

1084
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:23,960
how I fill my cup up. 
And one of the reasons I 

1085
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,000
absolutely love diving is when 
you're under the war, you 

1086
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,760
struggle to think about anything
else because there's cool things

1087
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,640
to look at. 
You're underwater, you're not 

1088
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,520
supposed to be there. 
It's much easier to to let 

1089
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,840
things go. 
I've just started mountain 

1090
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:38,840
biking, which I'm really 
enjoying because it's it's 

1091
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:40,920
really hard to think about 
what's going on at work when you

1092
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,280
you're constantly feeling that 
you're going to die because 

1093
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,880
you're about to fall off your 
back, which is, you know, always

1094
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,400
the fun thing with learning 
something new, isn't it? 

1095
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:53,840
It's always scary to start with,
but yeah, finding things that 

1096
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,920
fill you cup and having a good 
support network around you I 

1097
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,600
think is super important because
that's, you know, we lose a lot 

1098
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,080
of good people from the industry
every year as we've, you know, 

1099
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,680
veterinary technicians and all 
of the other challenging 

1100
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:08,920
professions. 
So it is really important that 

1101
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,200
we find things that raise us up 
so that we are more resilient 

1102
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,640
and more able to to cope. 
I was speaking to somebody 

1103
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,880
recently as a researcher who's 
looking at how do we support 

1104
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:20,920
mental health in shelter and 
rescue. 

1105
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:25,120
And she introduced me to the 
term empathic strain, which I 

1106
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,560
really like compared to 
something like compassion 

1107
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,200
fatigue or burnout. 
Because I think for me, impact 

1108
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,520
empathic strain just means that 
you're a little bit stretched 

1109
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,520
that you've got that ability to 
come back from it. 

1110
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,680
Whereas I think when we hear the
term like compassion fatigue or 

1111
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,560
burnout, you're kind of done. 
It's hard to come back from 

1112
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:43,760
those terms. 
And we said earlier on, right, 

1113
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,760
it's, it's just language. 
But I really like that idea of 

1114
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,000
empathic strain. 
Some weeks you can be more 

1115
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,000
strained than others. 
And we just want to make sure 

1116
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,200
that we've always got that 
ability to, to bounce back and 

1117
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,080
stay, stay ourselves while we're
working in this challenging 

1118
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:58,600
place. 
Yeah, that's it for me. 

1119
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,520
The sea and now the mountain. 
It's. 

1120
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,440
A massive, massive challenge 
that I love that I'm going to 

1121
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:08,200
research empathetic strain 
before we go. 

1122
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:10,960
Is there anything that you're 
looking forward to other than 

1123
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,160
shoes? 
Anything you're working on, 

1124
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:16,360
anything that you want people to
know about? 

1125
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,600
Yeah, a lot I'm looking forward 
to, I guess so, yeah, I've just 

1126
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,240
been asked to write a chapter in
a book, so I'm pretty looking 

1127
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,520
forward to that. 
I never did very well English at

1128
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,000
school and I didn't get very 
good grades. 

1129
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:34,640
So it's quite nice to the 
featuring in a book and that's 

1130
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:36,960
looking at how we can keep pets 
and people together. 

1131
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,720
So a lot of the conversations 
that we talked about tonight, 

1132
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:43,400
how do we support dogs where the
problems are rather than just 

1133
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,600
taking them in? 
So obviously something that I'm 

1134
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,760
really passionate about and 
hopefully I'll help 

1135
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,520
organisations and rescues set up
programmes to help support 

1136
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:53,600
people. 
So I'm really excited about 

1137
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,920
that. 
And then like you said earlier 

1138
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,720
on, I'm really lucky to be able 
to travel to some amazing 

1139
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,240
places, and I'm going to spend 
some time out of sheltering 

1140
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,960
Vermont in April, so that'll be 
pretty cool. 

1141
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:08,480
A couple of other places, yeah. 
Lots going on. 

1142
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,800
Lots going on, so where can 
people learn more about you or 

1143
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,760
connect with you and who should 
be in touch with you? 

1144
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,600
Yeah, so the best place is my 
website, so simplifying shelter 

1145
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:23,200
behaviour dot com, and that has 
kind of all of the things that 

1146
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,040
ioffer. 
It's got links to the podcast, 

1147
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,400
it's got all of the services 
that ioffer professionally. 

1148
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,440
So that's a good kind of 
roundabout place to go. 

1149
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,400
And then like I said, I've also 
got the podcast, which is aimed 

1150
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,680
at people primarily working and 
volunteering in rescues and 

1151
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:41,160
shelters. 
And I get a range of different 

1152
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,000
people on to talk about 
different behaviour topics and 

1153
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:48,440
how we can simplify the very, 
very difficult work that we do. 

1154
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,040
So that's the same simplifying 
shelter behaviour. 

1155
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,480
And that's on all of your kind 
of podcast apps. 

1156
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:57,000
And then I'm also on social 
medias where I put tips and 

1157
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,880
tricks out and have 
conversations and put my 

1158
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:02,920
thoughts out into the world. 
So yeah, if that interests you, 

1159
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,040
they're the best places to go. 
Wonderful. 

1160
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,520
Tom Candy, you have been a 
stellar guest. 

1161
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:09,920
Thank you so much for spending 
some time with me. 

1162
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,040
I wish you continued success and
thank you for all that you do 

1163
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,560
for dogs and for humans across 
the country and the world, and 

1164
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,440
hopefully we will see you on the
podcast again in the future. 

1165
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,920
Yeah, I'd love to come back. 
It's been a really great 

1166
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:23,520
conversation. 
Thank you very much.