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We pride ourselves as being 
really high welfare and looking 

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after our pets really well and 
being a nation of animal lovers,

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but we've let this kind of 
secret, unwanted thing enter our

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homes and it's right there and 
we've accepted it's completely 

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normal and we've taken an animal
and changed the way it looks to 

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suit our needs. 
Welcome to Just a Dog podcast, 

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the podcast for thoughtful dog 
lovers and guardians. 

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I am your host Nadine, Today I'm
speaking with Marissa Heath. 

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Marissa has spent more than 15 
years working inside Parliament 

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to improve the lives of dogs in 
the UK. 

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She runs the All Party 
Parliamentary Group for Animal 

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Welfare and helps to shape laws 
on breeding, licencing, 

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sentience and more. 
She also leads the Canine and 

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Feline Sector Group, bringing 
together Battersea Dogs Trust, 

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the RSPCA, the kennel and others
to advise the government. 

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Marissa is the author of A 
Healthier Future for Pedigree 

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Dogs and the Co founder of the 
Innate Health Assessment Tool. 

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The tool helps people understand
what a physically healthy dog 

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should look like when choosing a
puppy or deciding which dogs to 

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breed from. 
It focuses on simple things that

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we can see, like whether a dog 
can breathe, move or play with 

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ease. 
And you would think that it 

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would be easy to recognise a 
healthy dog, but breeding has 

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shifted so far from the dogs 
natural form that many unhealthy

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features now appear normal to 
us. 

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We unpack this in the episode. 
This conversation matters 

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because many dogs live with 
health struggles that go 

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completely unnoticed, all 
because of how they've been 

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bred. 
The IHA tool gives us a clearer 

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way to notice these signs and 
make kinder choices. 

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Marissa, thank you so much for 
joining me today. 

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I'm glad to be here. 
I'd love to get started by 

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learning a little bit more about
your younger years. 

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Did you grow up with dogs? 
I grew up in Indonesia for the 

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first part of my life. 
Lots of stray dogs. 

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We had two dogs, one that was a 
rescue and one that my parents 

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had bought. 
And being a foreigner in a 

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different country like that, you
know, animals were the kind of 

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connection I had. 
They were the companions and so 

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I was really close to the dogs 
then and I was always attracted.

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You know, my parents would be 
like, don't go near the stray 

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dogs because rabies was an 
issue. 

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I'm in Indonesia and I actually 
got bitten when I was a kid, but

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I've got no kind of issue about 
approaching any dog now. 

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It didn't have any real impact 
on me, even though I got whisked

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off to the rabies unit and all 
of that kind of thing. 

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So it was a stray dog. 
So my experiences haven't always

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been perfect with them, but I've
always just loved them and 

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wanted to be around dogs and all
animals. 

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Wonderful. 
Where? 

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Where in Indonesia was that? 
So a place called Bang Dung, 

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which is just outside by 
Jakarta, it's probably about an 

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hour out of Jakarta. 
And my father was working there.

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And as I said, there's just, you
know, animals everywhere. 

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It's just normal to be in the 
villages and to have goats 

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around you, cows, chickens, 
walking around, all of that kind

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of thing. 
So I was just Animals were part 

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of the community. 
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

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I only recently learned that 
something like 80% of dogs 

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around the world are actually 
free roaming. 

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Yeah, I know it's huge. 
Yeah, yeah, huge. 

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Huge number. 
So when I was doing some 

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research, I learned that you 
were a model. 

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Is that correct? 
That's so fascinating. 

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How do you go from being a model
to becoming a politician and 

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welfare advocate and policy 
maker and consultant? 

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Well, I've always been driven by
wanting to tackle unfairness. 

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It's something that really, 
really bothers me. 

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So say for example, seeing 
animals mistreated, or those 

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that are vulnerable, treated 
badly, bullied, all of that kind

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of thing. 
Something that's always really 

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driven me. 
Modelling is an interesting one 

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because it wasn't based on how 
hard you worked. 

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It was based on sort of who you 
knew, a bit of luck, timing, all

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of this kind of thing. 
So there were so many girls, 

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particularly the girls from 
South America and Russia and, 

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you know, Eastern European 
countries that were being sent 

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out to model, to save their 
families, to take money back 

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home and things. 
And the way it worked wasn't 

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based on how hard they worked or
even how beautiful they were. 

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It was all sorts of other 
things. 

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So it was an industry that was 
sort of marked a bit by 

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unfairness. 
I think I like kind of 

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meritocracy where if you work 
and you put the effort and 

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things, you get the reward back.
So I think that drove me. 

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So I always had that kind of 
thing inside me that I wanted to

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change stuff. 
And modelling was a sort of 

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escape from a small town in 
Hampshire that I went to after 

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Indonesia and went to school 
and, and a way to get out there 

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into the bigger world. 
And because of modelling, I 

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travelled extensively. 
I mean, you go, you live in 

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Paris and Milan and New York and
Tokyo and then you travel, you 

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know, I'd go to places like 
Marrakech for photo shoots and 

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things like that. 
So I got to see a lot of what 

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was going on in, in the world. 
And that just saved my mind up 

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to thinking, well, actually most
things are politics. 

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Legislation rules that we live 
by. 

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Everything we do is touched by 
politics. 

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So that's what drove my interest
and I, I wanted to get out of 

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modelling quite quickly because 
I found it, you know, very 

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superficial. 
Basically. 

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I'm not I, you know, looking 
back on it, I think to myself, I

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was an idiot. 
I was driven by this kind of 

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youthful, like, oh, this is 
unfair or you shouldn't have to 

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do this, shouldn't have to do 
that. 

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And actually it gives massive 
opportunities. 

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But at the time I wanted to get 
out. 

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So I went to university and 
studied English and then did 

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international relations and 
politics and got into, got 

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elected locally at that point. 
Very much driven by the Iraq War

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actually, 'cause that again to 
me was like this massive 

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injustice. 
I felt it was an illegal war at 

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the time. 
I still do. 

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There's lots of challenge around
that, but that's how I felt 

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about it and that drove me. 
And the animal welfare stuff is 

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just the fundamental baseline of
I think that we all have a duty 

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to look after the vulnerable in 
the world. 

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That should be the sort of top 
most priority. 

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Completely agree with you. 
When I think about the things 

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that drive us and move us 
forward as individuals, 

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obviously for you it's, you 
know, unfairness, injustice. 

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I, I tend to think that those 
things are driven by a call in a

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wound. 
And I was wondering where in 

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your life you might have 
experienced injustice yourself? 

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I think we all do at some point 
in our life. 

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I think there's always something
that's unfair. 

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Someone else gets a promotion. 
When you've worked harder as a 

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woman, there is sort of natural 
injustice sometimes in the work 

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environment and getting your 
voice heard, all of those sorts 

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of things. 
But I guess growing up in 

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Indonesia, you saw a real stark 
contrast. 

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So as as expats, obviously we 
were privileged. 

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We were the white expats over 
there being paid to do jobs. 

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My dad was sent over by the 
government at the time. 

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But then you had this massive 
expanse of poverty and people 

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who had absolutely nothing and a
lot of cruelty and things going 

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on that you saw it was, it was 
out there, it wasn't really 

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covered up. 
So that immediately sort of made

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me see the difference and the 
injustice and the inequality. 

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So I think that's what really 
started it. 

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But you know, there's lots of 
examples of things where I have,

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for example, done a really big 
piece of work, work for pro bono

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for free, and somebody else has 
gone off with the glory and 

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credit for it. 
And I think probably lots of us 

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have examples of that happening.
Yeah. 

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And so having that experience as
a foreign person is really 

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interesting how you had that 
level of self-awareness so early

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on. 
Some people just have this 

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connection. 
It's empathy at the end of the 

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day, isn't it? 
And you can, I don't think, age.

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I mean, I see it a bit in my 
daughter already. 

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She's 7 and from age 4 she was 
like, oh, why are we eating 

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animals? 
We're questioning all these kind

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of things. 
Why are people wearing fur? 

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The animal needs the fur and 
things. 

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So I think it's naturally in US 
and probably that environment 

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stirred up much more for me. 
Yeah, I, I just, I just felt 

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really strongly. 
I, I, I hate cruelty. 

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I'm driven by wanting to tackle 
it. 

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I feel personal, like 
responsibility and duty to do 

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something about. 
It so Indonesia, Hampshire. 

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And then at what stage did you 
adopt, rescue or buy your first 

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dog? 
So we'd already, we had a stray 

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dog living with us in Indonesia 
called Lady. 

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So we'd already sort of made 
that move. 

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But actually it was a horse that
changed my, my feelings about 

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animals even more, drove it even
more. 

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When I was really, really young,
my parents were having a very 

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challenging relationship. 
And my escape was this rescue 

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pony that they had allowed us to
have. 

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And then at that time, it was a 
bit about 80 lbs or something a 

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month to keep this horse on 
livery down the road. 

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And I could walk there. 
And literally after school and 

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in the morning, I walked there 
and did it myself and looked 

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after this pony, groomed her. 
She was a nightmare to ride, 

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really difficult, complex pony, 
probably looking back at it in 

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pain, back pain, tooth pain, all
of this kind of thing. 

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But when you're young and, and 
people aren't telling you that 

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you don't know it, there's loads
of horses that are being ridden 

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or looked after in probably not 
a great way. 

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But this pony was my life. 
I mean, I absolutely adored her.

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And that just got me interested 
in, in being around animals all 

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the time. 
So we rescued cats. 

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Then when I was like 1314, we 
had rescue cats in with us. 

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I didn't get my own dog until I 
was, I think 25. 

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I got my first dog and just, I 
mean, I love this dog. 

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She was called Maggie. 
I just took her absolutely 

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everywhere. 
I may as well have been in a 

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kind of Commission. 
I, my dogs get more attention 

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than my partner in the house. 
So my my partner knows that the 

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dog comes first by miles. 
That's just the way it works. 

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So, yeah, so we've always had 
animals and I've always been 

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like when I was a kid, I found 
I'd probably not the right thing

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to do when, you know, But I 
found a baby magpie in the woods

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that had, you know, it was low 
and couldn't see it as mum 

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couldn't find his nest. 
So I took it home, didn't tell 

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my parents, made it a nest in my
wardrobe and kept it there for 

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ages until I sort of realised 
that you needed to set these 

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things free and that wasn't the 
right way to do it. 

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But I thought I was doing the 
right thing, as we often do. 

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I had a wood pigeon I rescued 
from the stables that ended up 

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living on my on windowsill for 
about two or three years. 

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Used to come in my bedroom, hang
out with me and then go off out 

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the windowsill and things. 
So I was always finding things 

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to rescue and look after. 
Wonderful. 

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What was your impression of dogs
in Indonesia and how did that 

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shift over time when you came to
the UK? 

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Dogs are treated like dirt. 
In a lot of countries. 

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There's a lot of stray dogs and 
they're just a nuisance. 

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That doesn't mean all of the 
people dislike dogs. 

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They don't. 
Some of them really connect to 

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them and things, but largely 
they're a nuisance. 

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They could see dogs dragging 
their back legs because they've 

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been hit by a car and they'd be 
going around like that for days 

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and weeks. 
In fact, no one doing anything 

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about it. 
There was a lot of abuse of 

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dogs, say beating of them, 
reasoning, poisoning happens a 

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lot, really slow death for dogs.
So there was no welfare 

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legislation or protection of 
animals at all in places like 

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that. 
And the way they can be treated 

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is absolutely appalling. 
And you know, I've spent time in

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abattoirs and breeding 
facilities, all sorts of 

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different places. 
So I understand what I'm, I'm 

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talking about. 
But some of the things that we 

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used to go to the markets where 
they'd be selling puppies, not 

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00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,840
for pets, for food. 
You know that that's the 

227
00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,560
cultural difference out there. 
So sort of seeing all that 

228
00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:49,040
thing, I suppose I came back to 
the UK and at least we had a 

229
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,680
baseline of animal protection, 
like what was 1800s or something

230
00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:57,240
that the founder of the RFPC had
got legislation in and things 

231
00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,640
saying we need to recognise the 
importance of animals. 

232
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,720
So we had already gone further 
than a lot of these countries 

233
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,000
for all sorts of reasons, 
economic, social. 

234
00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:08,640
But I did think to myself it's 
not enough, we can do more. 

235
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,320
And also if we can get it right 
here, how can we transport that 

236
00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,760
internationally to create better
protection? 

237
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,760
For me, we, it was part of the 
work on the Animal Sentience Act

238
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:19,440
and recognising the animals are 
sentient. 

239
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,160
But I've always known that has 
always been, it's my belief 

240
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,440
they've got emotions, they feel 
pain, they have lives, they want

241
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,080
to live, they want to survive. 
And I think we've got duty as 

242
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,600
this sort of all powerful race 
of humans being to protect them.

243
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,720
And I'm not putting it all in 
the same category, don't get me 

244
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,560
wrong. 
But same as we need to look 

245
00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:41,120
after disabled people, elderly 
people, anyone who's vulnerable 

246
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,480
in a society, those who are 
suffering from severe mental 

247
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,600
health, that's our duty to 
protect and look after them. 

248
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:53,360
100% when you had your own dog 
at first, was it a puppy? 

249
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,720
No, it was about a year or so, a
kind of Germany shepherdie 

250
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,400
Mongoli kind of St dog 
basically. 

251
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,720
But we also had this dog, 
Chinese Chow or something like 

252
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,680
that, because they were, you 
know, they were breeding dogs 

253
00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:08,000
for expats and things, so 
fancier dogs. 

254
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,320
And I don't know much about the 
breed, but it was this black and

255
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:11,960
white thing with quite a flat 
nose. 

256
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,000
Not as far as they are nowadays,
but still looking back on it, I 

257
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,600
mean, it wouldn't have been the 
dog that I would have chosen. 

258
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,480
He was called Smut, which means 
little Ant in Indonesian. 

259
00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:26,000
Really sweet dog. 
But we all connected probably 

260
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,760
more to the street dogs. 
It just had something about it. 

261
00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:30,600
It's just something just some 
dogs. 

262
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,080
I mean, I love all dogs, but 
some dogs just get you a bit 

263
00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,640
more than others. 
My current dog is a good example

264
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,760
of that. 
And then having the experience 

265
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,920
of having your own dog, did you 
have any preconceived ideas 

266
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,760
about what it took to care for 
your dog? 

267
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,040
Did did anything change? 
Did that reveal anything about 

268
00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,640
some inherited ideas, maybe from
Indonesia? 

269
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:54,240
Well, it's slightly different in
Indonesia because in the UK we 

270
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,160
have to keep our dogs contained.
We should be, you know, we don't

271
00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,640
let them sort of just run down 
the streets do because they get 

272
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,760
hit by a car and squashed. 
Whereas in Indonesia the dogs 

273
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,280
come and go as they please. 
So this dog knew it lived with 

274
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,720
us, but it had its own autonomy,
which is really interesting 

275
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,680
because I've been thinking a lot
about this with my own dog. 

276
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:15,240
Now, I thought to myself the 
other day, I love that dog and 

277
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,400
I'll do anything for it. 
But at the end of the day, I'm 

278
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,920
the master and controller. 
I decide when she gets fed, when

279
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,320
she gets walked, when she goes 
to bed, when she's allowed on 

280
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,400
the sofa, all of these things. 
She's responding and I I you 

281
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,560
know, that sat a bit 
uncomfortably with me because I 

282
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:30,920
want her to be sort of free to 
do what she wants to do. 

283
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,920
And don't get me wrong, share 
totter off off off my bed or off

284
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:35,400
the sofa when she's fed up with 
me. 

285
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,160
Sure, go in the when she feels 
like it, all of that kind of 

286
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,880
thing. 
But nonetheless, we control look

287
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,200
after our dogs in dictations 
like this. 

288
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,360
Whereas in Indonesia they did 
their own thing. 

289
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:48,000
And one wonders, you can 
question that and go, what's 

290
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,360
happier, a street dog or a pet 
dog? 

291
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,040
Now you're going to go, well, a 
street dog must have a miserable

292
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,120
life because it's scavenging for
food and things. 

293
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,560
But dogs do quite like sort of 
moving around and in looking at 

294
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:00,280
things and inquiring. 
They don't want to be shot in a 

295
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,320
kitchen all day. 
And that is, unfortunately what 

296
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,920
happens to quite a lot of dogs. 
Yes, a lot of them. 

297
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,000
I was just reading this book. 
I actually, the conversation I 

298
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,200
had earlier today was with 
Jessica Pierce who authored the 

299
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,480
book. 
I think it's called Unleash the 

300
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,320
Unleash your dog, something like
that. 

301
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,240
And in this book they had 
statistics that completely like 

302
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,760
it just threw me. 
How many dogs get walked? 

303
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,080
How many dogs get walked once a 
day for half an hour? 

304
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,240
How many dogs get walked for two
hours a day, that kind of thing.

305
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,600
And unfortunately, the 
percentages were so low. 

306
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,400
The percentage of dogs who don't
ever get I walked was so high, 

307
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,720
and I was on a walk when I was 
listening to it. 

308
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,560
It's shocking. 
I mean, I guess there's two 

309
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,320
reasons for that. 
One time shortage from people 

310
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,400
who might be leaving for work at
9:00 and getting back at 5:00 

311
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,800
and it's pitch black now, 
whatever, or they're just doing 

312
00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,720
other things. 
Secondly, the type of dogs 

313
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,120
they're getting and that will go
to the extreme health issues and

314
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:54,760
the fact that some dogs struggle
to walk. 

315
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:56,880
Absolutely. 
Well, let's get straight into 

316
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,920
that then. 
The reason why I wanted to talk 

317
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,440
to you was about the innate 
health assessment tool. 

318
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,120
I would love for people to 
understand a bit more about how 

319
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:10,440
that came about, what it is. 
Yeah, 2009, I worked in defence 

320
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,960
in Parliament on 1st and then 
this role came up where it was 

321
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,600
for a part time person to run 
what's called the All Party 

322
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,160
Parliamentary Group for Animal 
Welfare. 

323
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,960
And I was like, oh, that's quite
a sort of nerve wracking thing 

324
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,320
to do, to go part time on a job 
that probably doesn't pay that 

325
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,080
much artistically. 
It doesn't. 

326
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,200
Whereas if I'd stayed in the 
defence industry, I could be 

327
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,760
working for a big defence 
company earning quite a lot of 

328
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,680
money. 
But animal welfare was my 

329
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,680
passion and I thought to myself,
you know what, that gives me the

330
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,920
freedom to possibly do other 
things would be a bit 

331
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,200
entrepreneurial. 
So I went for it, applied for 

332
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,480
the job, got the job, and one of
the first things that happened 

333
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,160
as I took over was a documentary
called Pedigree Dogs Exposed 

334
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:48,960
came out. 
And this documentary, she was 

335
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,640
basically following people 
showing dogs at crafts and 

336
00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,080
breeding dogs and had compiled 
all the evidence to show that we

337
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,280
had changed the way a number of 
dogs look to meet breed 

338
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,960
standards and we're causing them
huge health problems as a 

339
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,120
consequence. 
So both external health problems

340
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,640
as in, you know, flat faces, 
bulging eyes, skin folds and 

341
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,560
things, but also internal, some 
sort of hereditary conditions, 

342
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,120
heart problems, higher potential
of getting cancers, all of these

343
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:16,880
sorts of things because of 
inbreeding and things. 

344
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,080
So it was quite a big deal at 
the time. 

345
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,120
I think it hit the mainstream 
press like the times and things 

346
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,440
covered it. 
And the Labour MP who was the 

347
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,880
chair of the all party 
parliamentary group, which we 

348
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,600
called Apgor said to me, oh 
right, we need to do something 

349
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,960
on this. 
So we ran an inquiry, a cross 

350
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,480
party inquiry, which basically 
meant I wrote to everyone, put 

351
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,080
it out to the sector and said, 
right, give me written evidence 

352
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:39,560
as to why you think this is a 
problem. 

353
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,360
Here's some questions I want you
to answer. 

354
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,760
And then from about 3:00, 300 
submissions we got from leading 

355
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,680
experts, vets, breeders, members
of the public, all sorts. 

356
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,400
I whittled it down and we bought
people in to give evidence, oral

357
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,360
evidence to the parliamentary 
committee. 

358
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,960
And at the end of that, I wrote 
a report, and that report was 

359
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,200
called A Healthier Feature of 
Pedigree Dogs, and it set out a 

360
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,720
number of recommendations, 
basically saying this is a huge 

361
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,079
welfare problem. 
Actually, we've allowed it to 

362
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:07,760
happen, we've encouraged it to 
happen, and it's right under our

363
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,880
nose. 
So we need to do something about

364
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,400
it. 
Fast forward to 2022, just going

365
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,520
into 2023, I, you know, every 
year I run a stream of 

366
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,839
programmes so we can look at all
sorts of different things. 

367
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:21,280
At the moment we've got a big 
project on enforcement, animal 

368
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,240
welfare enforcement. 
I'm back to release a report 

369
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,640
tomorrow or that. 
But I was looking at my work 

370
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,359
stream and I thought, dogs, 
where have we got to with dogs? 

371
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,160
Well, frankly, nowhere really 
have we? 

372
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,880
It's got a lot worse. 
So because of influence, because

373
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,760
of trends, because no real 
actions been taken, more and 

374
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,960
more dogs were being bred of 
what we call extreme 

375
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,520
confirmation, again causing all 
these problems. 

376
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,920
And I thought we've got to do 
something about this. 

377
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,320
This is just ridiculous. 
So I put together a 

378
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,880
parliamentary meeting, but all 
the experts in again and said 

379
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,400
what are we doing? 
Everyone agreed this is an 

380
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,920
absolute travesty. 
We can't believe we've got to 

381
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:56,920
this point, we've really let 
down dogs. 

382
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,080
And how if we let this happen 
right under our nose, there 

383
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,160
wasn't a real conclusion to that
meeting apart from let's go and 

384
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,000
set up a working group and look 
at this again. 

385
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,360
And as people probably know, 
looking into politics and 

386
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:10,480
things, there's always an 
inquiry or a working group or 

387
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,200
something like that. 
And people want to see what's 

388
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,240
actually going to happen, what's
going to make a difference. 

389
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,320
But I was working with someone 
called Professor Dan O'Neill, 

390
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,360
who works for the Royal 
Veterinary College at the time. 

391
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:22,200
And he showed me this 
presentation he had. 

392
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,240
And in the middle of this 
presentation, I saw this thing 

393
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:25,480
that I thought, hey, what's 
that? 

394
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,880
Tell me more about it. 
And it was what he was calling 

395
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,040
innate health. 
And innate health is, is 

396
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,720
basically saying a dog should be
able to do what a dog needs to 

397
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,600
do. 
So it should be able to run, it 

398
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,520
should be able to play, it 
should be able to engage with 

399
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,480
other dogs. 
It should be able to eat, it 

400
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,400
should be able to sleep, and it 
should be able to breathe. 

401
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,240
It's all pretty fundamental 
stuff. 

402
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:44,680
Yeah. 
So I said to him, I think 

403
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,440
there's something in here and we
could talk about legislation all

404
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,000
day long. 
But what we actually need to do 

405
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,320
is start explaining this issue 
to the public because it's not 

406
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,120
their fault. 
They just think these dogs look 

407
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,640
like this and they're buying 
them because other people have 

408
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,360
got them. 
Actually, we've got to simplify 

409
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:00,640
this. 
Let's step away from the 

410
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,320
veterinary talk and find a way 
to make this understandable. 

411
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,080
And They're Born was the innate 
health concept, which we then 

412
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,720
made into a tool over the next 
year and a half to two years. 

413
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,280
And we've just launched it two 
weeks ago. 

414
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:14,880
Yes, I was actually randomly 
having a conversation with 

415
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,760
somebody the other day because 
there was a video where they 

416
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,760
were, they had all these pugs 
and people were playing with the

417
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,400
pugs. 
And it was actually based in the

418
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,840
States, so not in the UK, but it
was a big group of pugs. 

419
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,760
And everyone was saying, oh, I 
love pugs and pugs this and pugs

420
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,840
that. 
And I was thinking actually, not

421
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,000
that they shouldn't have a 
platform, but people don't 

422
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,440
realise by giving these dogs 
more exposure makes up people 

423
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,400
want them more, which just 
continues to feel the cycle. 

424
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,200
And I was speaking to this lady 
and I was saying, like, these 

425
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,280
poor dogs can't even breathe. 
And she said, you've never owned

426
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,680
a pug? 
I've got a pug and my pug 

427
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,360
breathes just fine. 
I thought to myself, that's 

428
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:53,640
interesting. 
Is that a case then of some 

429
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,680
breeds have issues and some 
breeds don't, but some dogs 

430
00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,520
within those breeds? 
So not everyone. 

431
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,560
But it turns out that actually 
with pugs or brachycephalic 

432
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,960
dogs, they by default can't 
breathe properly. 

433
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,240
So I mean the issue on that 
basically. 

434
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,320
So first of all, the IHA wasn't 
made to be about breeds, it was 

435
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,760
made to be about making sure no 
animal suffers. 

436
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,960
So I don't care what the breed 
is, every animal should be able 

437
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,200
to do those functions that I 
outlined earlier. 

438
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,680
But the problem is people have 
got very normalised to heavy 

439
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,000
breathing or their dog not doing
anything. 

440
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,840
Actually if you took a pug for a
run, I bet you it'd be like like

441
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,920
that, just, you know, as you go 
down the road. 

442
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,400
Whereas a dog should be able to 
run for quite a distance 

443
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,520
actually about getting too out 
of breath, you, you get these 

444
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,680
things on Instagram where the 
dog's snoring or making funny 

445
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,800
noises and people think that's 
really amusing and there's lots 

446
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,120
of content saying how I listen 
to my dog's breathing. 

447
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:48,640
Isn't it funny? 
It's not. 

448
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,640
It's a sign of struggling. 
And most brachyophilic dogs are 

449
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,720
going to have that problem. 
This doesn't mean you can't have

450
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,560
pugs. 
And if you go on the IHA 

451
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,840
website, you'll see a beautiful 
photo that shows a pug as it is 

452
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,680
today and a pug how it could be 
in two years time if you just 

453
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,240
lengthened its nose a bit, if 
you just got rid of some of the 

454
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,520
skin faults, if you just allowed
the tail to extend a bit more so

455
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,280
you weren't hurting the dog's 
bag. 

456
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,200
Simple things that we think you 
could change within one to two 

457
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,520
generations of a pug, actually. 
So you're not talking about 

458
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,640
anything insurmountable at all. 
And we're not saying people 

459
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,560
can't have pugs, but the way 
that a lot of pugs, there might 

460
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,640
be exceptions. 
She might have a pug that's got 

461
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,640
a longer snout and is doing OK. 
But on the whole, most of them 

462
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,640
will be struggling even if you 
can't see it, you know, straight

463
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:31,480
away. 
Yeah. 

464
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,240
Well, it's the normalisation of 
it, isn't it, that people just 

465
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,840
kind of assume that that is what
the breed sounds like? 

466
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,600
That is what that those types of
dogs, you know, that's just what

467
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,160
they look like they. 
Should be silent at breath. 

468
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,840
I can't hear my Labrador 
breathing at all unless she's 

469
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,720
been for a massive run. 
Really cloudy and she'll come 

470
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,040
back panting. 
But it's the same as a human, 

471
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,000
you know? 
If you I can't hear you 

472
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,480
breathing, you can't hear me 
breathing. 

473
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,840
Yeah, yeah, that's true. 
Who is this tool for? 

474
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,280
Is it for breeders or is it for 
everyday people? 

475
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,480
So we're just amending the 
website as it at the moment 

476
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,040
actually. 
So we've got 2 versions of the 

477
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,440
tool, one that's just for breed,
for puppy buyers, for the public

478
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,840
to the check their dog or a 
puppy they're buying really 

479
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,920
fast, about having to put any 
information in about microchips 

480
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,280
or addresses or anything like 
that. 

481
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,320
So we're saying to puppy buyers,
if you want a dog that you know 

482
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,200
you're not going to spend 
fortunes of vet bills on, and we

483
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,720
can touch on that in a moment 
because the evidence is clear. 

484
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,080
These dogs with extreme 
confirmation will cost you a lot

485
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,080
of money at the vet. 
And we're seeing huge amounts of

486
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,120
them being abandoned, 
relinquished because of that and

487
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:32,760
ending up in Battersea and Dogs 
Trust in the RSPCA. 

488
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,240
If you don't want the heartbreak
of that in your family and the 

489
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,440
cost, then use the tool for the 
dog you are about to buy. 

490
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,360
Use it on the breeding bitch or 
the sire. 

491
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,840
Use it on the puppies, you know,
go through it quickly. 

492
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,600
And that will give you a good 
indication of whether you're 

493
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,240
buying an innately healthy dog. 
But we are also doing a version 

494
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,320
for breeders to say, actually, 
you need to check before you 

495
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,920
breed from the the animals that 
you're breeding from that they 

496
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,600
can pass this IHA because if 
they don't pass it, you should 

497
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,120
not be reading from them. 
And you know, doing so, you're 

498
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:02,360
exacerbating the problem and 
sending it into the future 

499
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:04,160
again. 
Even breeders technically 

500
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,360
already know that. 
Slightly cloudy. 

501
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:09,160
There is some legislation, we 
call it liar licencing of animal

502
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,200
activities and it says that if 
you're breeding commercially or 

503
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,280
over 3 litters you need a 
licence and to get a licence and

504
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,960
inspector comes out and within 
the regulation it says that you 

505
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,400
shouldn't be breeding from dogs 
that have these kind of 

506
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,840
conditions but no one's 
enforcing that because they 

507
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,000
don't understand how to measure 
it. 

508
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,640
Before the innate health tool it
was like what extreme 

509
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,640
conditions, where do I stop, 
where do I begin? 

510
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,400
I don't know. 
I'm a local authority inspector 

511
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,920
who's been doing the taxis down 
on the road or the feed 

512
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,880
establishment. 
Here I am in front of a dog 

513
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,600
going, should I breed from it or
not? 

514
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,440
So there was no way of really 
pinning it down. 

515
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,320
Whereas now we, we can, we can 
say to local authority 

516
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,640
inspectors, you can use the tool
and that gives you a baseline 

517
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,240
and something to enforce on. 
So we have got that. 

518
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,080
Fortunately when it comes to 
breeding, the market is very, 

519
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,160
very cloudy. 
So you have your small segment 

520
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,800
of licenced commercial breeders 
who are doing the right thing, 

521
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,040
getting a licence. 
Then you've got what you call 

522
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,680
your hobby breeders who just say
I'm just having a one off litter

523
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,120
as a hobby. 
And I would question that 

524
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,840
because most dogs, if you're 
breeding a one of the dogs that 

525
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,280
has extreme confirmation, you're
probably selling them six to 800

526
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,760
lbs. 
So you're going over the 1000 

527
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,760
lbs tax threshold where you have
to start doing tax returns 

528
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,360
anyway. 
So you therefore probably a 

529
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:18,320
commercial. 
And if you're advertising them 

530
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,680
on any platform, you are 
considered commercial as well. 

531
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,000
So you should have a licence, 
but they're not. 

532
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,160
And the local authority guys 
have not got time to go out 

533
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,800
looking for these people. 
And then you've got all of the 

534
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,160
importers. 
We just had the ban on the 

535
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,760
imports of puppies Bill made go 
through Parliament last week. 

536
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,120
But nonetheless there still will
be black market of that. 

537
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:38,960
There's people that are bringing
puppies in, saying they're pets 

538
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,320
or whatever, or bitches that are
due to have puppies and things 

539
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:43,840
and bringing them in and selling
them. 

540
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,520
There's a lot of dodgy people 
out there who are tricking 

541
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,720
decent people into buying dogs 
that come from Eastern European 

542
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,040
puppy farms, basically really 
low welfare and they will be 

543
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,280
possibly riddled with disease 
and certainly extreme 

544
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,320
confirmation. 
So we need to clear up the host 

545
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,080
of environment around breeding 
and puppy buying. 

546
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,080
We need to make it easy for 
people who are doing what we 

547
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,800
believe is the right thing, 
which is largely home breeders 

548
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,240
who are doing it in the right 
way, socialising those puppies, 

549
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,080
looking after them. 
We need to make it really, 

550
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,600
really difficult for people who 
are doing backyard breeding, 

551
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,840
importing, all of those sorts of
things. 

552
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,920
And it's the public who lose out
at the end of the day because 

553
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,160
they get a puppy. 
I just had a builder actually 

554
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,080
working on the House and he said
he was getting a puppy. 

555
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,560
I was like, I roll, OK, He'd 
already got it, so I couldn't 

556
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,120
give him a lecture about it. 
A week later, he comes back, 

557
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:32,800
said, oh, we've given it back to
the breeder. 

558
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,640
It was really sick. 
It just wasn't, you know, 

559
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,000
something wrong with it. 
The kids are now crying their 

560
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,880
eyes out and blah, blah, blah. 
And I was like, and what's going

561
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,880
to happen to that puppy is the 
breeder, you know, she's AI 

562
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,280
don't know how ethical that 
breeder is. 

563
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:44,680
Is she going to euthanize the 
dog? 

564
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,800
Is she going to look after it? 
She's going to sell it again. 

565
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,960
What's going to happen to her? 
Absolutely 100% so. 

566
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,840
So for my, if you don't mind my 
understanding, this is a slight 

567
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,160
sidestep to the tool itself, but
just how how does Parliament 

568
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,320
work in terms of specifically 
focusing on dogs, like who is 

569
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,720
responsible, who puts things 
forward? 

570
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,440
Yeah, yeah. 
Like what? 

571
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,360
What are their priorities at the
moment? 

572
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,760
So the app Gore, the 
parliamentary group, starts by 

573
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,600
raising an issue so it gets its 
grassroots there where we say oh

574
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,640
this isn't working because of 
dot, dot, dot, and then we 

575
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,120
pressurise government to do 
something about it. 

576
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,200
But government can also set its 
own agenda as well and say this 

577
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,360
is an issue so dangerous. 
For example, they banned some 

578
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:29,040
breeds last year, the XL 
bullies, because of the attacks.

579
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,320
That was a public safety issue 
so they moved on that. 

580
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,440
It depends what the government 
wants to do and how much energy 

581
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,880
it's got and to do something. 
We are due to have what's called

582
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,200
an animal welfare strategy 
published on the 22nd of 

583
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,400
December by government setting 
out the pathway for what they 

584
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,200
will do on animal welfare and it
sits within the Department for 

585
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,920
Environment, Food and Rural 
Affairs. 

586
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,840
Animal welfare and health falls 
under them, so they will decide 

587
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,760
what to do. 
Sometimes you can bypass them. 

588
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,200
You can go to an MP directly and
get them to do what's called a 

589
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,960
private members bill where they 
say we want to ban whatever, 

590
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,120
whatever kind of breeding and 
they get enough support so they 

591
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,480
can take it past government. 
But you normally have to have 

592
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,280
some government support to do 
that. 

593
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,480
If the government were really 
against it, they'd stop it 

594
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,840
happening. 
But basically you have to build 

595
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,200
pressure you we're fighting 
amongst a million other issues, 

596
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,480
you know, children's services, 
people who have business 

597
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,960
interests, food strategies, 
climate change, on and on. 

598
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,000
There's so many different things
the government will be 

599
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,800
prioritising and only a limited 
amount of legislative time. 

600
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,240
So it's how hard you campaign, 
how much noise you make and how 

601
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:33,800
easy you get the solution to 
look like. 

602
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,800
So we tend to at go, for 
example, we tend to do the oven 

603
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,440
ready stuff. 
We literally draft the bill for 

604
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,160
them, show them through polling 
how much support there is for it

605
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,720
and kind of say it's a win win. 
Just just do it because it's 

606
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,680
easy. 
But dog breeding they will be 

607
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,480
sensitive about. 
They won't want to sort of 

608
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,560
charge into that because they 
see it as a kind of infringement

609
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,920
on people's freedom to just go 
out and get a dog and you know. 

610
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,800
Well that doesn't really take 
away their freedom to go out and

611
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,200
get a dog, it just makes the 
entire process more ethical and 

612
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,080
considerate of dogs. 
And protects them potentially, 

613
00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:07,440
you know, not even potentially 
it will protect them. 

614
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,680
If we're asking, for example, 
that there should be a 

615
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,480
registration system of anyone 
who breeds a dog, they just 

616
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,320
register the local authority and
it goes on a system so they have

617
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,440
a registration number. 
So, you know, they are a real 

618
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,720
and legitimate person and you 
know, within that registration 

619
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,640
thing there can be a duty to 
abide by the law that the 

620
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,080
government have set. 
And if the local authority 

621
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,520
people want to check up on them 
or something or they think 

622
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,480
there's something suspicious, 
they can because at least they 

623
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,480
know who they are. 
I don't think that's too 

624
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,520
heavy-handed at all, but you 
know, it's getting government to

625
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,920
agree to something like that. 
Yeah, you were saying about 

626
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,760
raising an issue and the 
government can also raise their 

627
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,960
own issue. 
But for you to raise raise an 

628
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,040
issue, how do you become aware 
of what the issues are? 

629
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,480
So normally, I mean, I've been 
in the sector long enough and I 

630
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,480
run lots of different groups, 
the canine and feline sector 

631
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,000
group, the local government 
group, and I'm involved in lots 

632
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,480
of other sort of different 
welfare groups. 

633
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,880
So I will hear on the Grapevine 
or join my conversations with 

634
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,040
people what they're working on, 
what the trends they're seeing. 

635
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,880
So if a rescue is kind of saying
we're seeing this massive spike 

636
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,240
in dogs that have got this or, 
or the equine sector says we're 

637
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,640
seeing a massive use in how 
people are treating horses, 

638
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,160
whatever it is, you can start to
spot the trends. 

639
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,280
So for example, someones emailed
me today saying, hey, you know, 

640
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,280
you're IHA. 
We're actually seeing a big 

641
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,000
problem of that in exotic pets 
as well. 

642
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,520
People are breeding exotic pets 
in all sorts of ways. 

643
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,200
That's leading to early fatality
and welfare issues. 

644
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,440
So now I'm sort of looking at 
the exotic side going, OK, 

645
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,280
what's happening with their 
cats? 

646
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,400
We know that cats are starting 
to experience extreme 

647
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,240
confirmation as well, so we're 
seeing lots of trends starting 

648
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,480
to spike there. 
The cats protection stats are 

649
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,880
showing more people are buying 
pedigree cats now than they are 

650
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,960
morgies. 
So you start to see all these 

651
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,280
trends just by being in touch 
with the organisations that are 

652
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,560
collecting data and statistics 
and seeing the gaps really. 

653
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,360
So if a, if a, you know, regular
layman such as myself, you know,

654
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,520
felt really strongly, 
passionately about an issue and 

655
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,120
there doesn't seem to be 
anything, you know, happening 

656
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,560
around that area, how can, how 
can regular citizens bring that 

657
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,240
to your attention? 
So they can write to the is 

658
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,800
what's the best thing to do is 
write to their MP and copy app 

659
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,360
for it and copy me it and saying
this is an issue and I want you 

660
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,880
as my MP to take it seriously 
and App Gore to potentially 

661
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,600
consider it. 
And then we had put it on our 

662
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,200
work plan to have a look at it. 
Or it might be something more 

663
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,880
simple like we just write to the
Secretary of State, the relevant

664
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,240
minister and say, here's a 
problem here. 

665
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,520
There's there's different fixes 
to different things. 

666
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,560
So what we've done that's quite 
interesting in App Gore is we've

667
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,840
taken the route that legislation
isn't the only fix. 

668
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,200
Actually, there's a lot that can
be done within the sector 

669
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,080
itself, within business, within 
breeders, within the public and 

670
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,280
things that can improve welfare.
So how do we work outside 

671
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,080
Parliament as well as inside? 
So if a member of the public 

672
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,720
raises anything, we just look at
our kind of toolkit and say, OK,

673
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,800
yeah, we think that is an issue.
Umm, let's take a bit of action 

674
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,520
on that. 
Or if it's a really significant 

675
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,520
issue, we'll run an inquiry and 
do a a long piece of work on it.

676
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,360
So it really depends. 
But the public, the public, you 

677
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,280
know, MPs will listen more than 
they've ever listened because 

678
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,920
the last election has shown us 
nobody's really got a safe seat 

679
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,800
anymore. 
So politicians, one minute to 

680
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,200
another, as the polls are 
changing, this is happening. 

681
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,400
People are switching their 
allegiances from voting. 

682
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,200
No one's sticking to one party 
now. 

683
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,760
So they're jumping around and 
that means politicians have to 

684
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,560
react to the public and try and 
clean their good books. 

685
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,280
So for anyone who does really 
care about something, just get 

686
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,640
go straight to your MP and say 
this is an issue and I want to 

687
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,760
know what you're doing about it.
Well, I've thought about that 

688
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,880
before because I remember when 
the petition was going round 

689
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,360
about animal testing 
specifically, I emailed my local

690
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,640
MP and I didn't hear back for a 
long time. 

691
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,360
Thankfully he did. 
But I was thinking, what if 

692
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,600
you're emailing an MP that isn't
interested? 

693
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,240
They're not a dog person, you 
know, they're not not going to 

694
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,680
connect with what you're trying 
to and. 

695
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,160
That that happens. 
I mean, like every job, there's 

696
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,560
good and bad, isn't there? 
I mean, I personally think all 

697
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,720
MPs, I mean, it's not even them 
answering, it's their team of 

698
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,520
staff. 
So there's absolutely no excuse 

699
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,840
for them not responding to a 
constituent that makes contact. 

700
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,800
But I would go straight out and 
put on social media. 

701
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,240
I've written to my MP about this
issue. 

702
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,000
It's something I care about. 
And they haven't been bothered 

703
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,240
coming back to me because the 
arena now of social media and 

704
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,720
making a noise is, is highly 
impactful. 

705
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,960
But you can also go to, you 
know, the charities and find 

706
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,440
ways of supporting them, their 
campaigns. 

707
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,800
There are charities that do 
things that will instruct you 

708
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,320
how to write to your MP in a way
that gets their attention and 

709
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,240
how to sort of galvanised 
action. 

710
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,000
You know, on the animal 
experimentation one, there's 

711
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,040
Animal and Research UK and Peter
and those organisations doing 

712
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,120
things on the dog stuff, there's
Battersea and Dogs Trust and 

713
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:39,920
Kennel Club or raising these 
issues. 

714
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,640
So they can help you. 
That's their their job to help. 

715
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,640
But ultimately, if it's 
something you care about as a 

716
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,880
member of the public, the MP 
needs to respond and give you a 

717
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,040
view of it. 
And even if they're not 

718
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,000
interested in it, it's not up to
them, to any lobby for things 

719
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,920
they're interested in, and 
they're there to represent the 

720
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,080
public. 
Interesting. 

721
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,160
Be tenacious, basically, and 
annoying. 

722
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,080
Be annoying. 
I can do that. 

723
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,200
I was just wondering, I mean, 
this is again going behind the 

724
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,240
kind of behind the scenes, the 
things that regular people 

725
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,800
wouldn't have, you know, 
knowledge of. 

726
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,920
I wouldn't know. 
There was a petition that went 

727
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,280
round, well, is still going 
round, but someone sent it to me

728
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,040
yesterday and it was about 
banning all aversives. 

729
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,320
Someone else then reached out to
me after I posted it on my 

730
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,440
stories asking people to sign 
the petition and they said it's 

731
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,800
not going to go through, it's 
not specific enough because 

732
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,480
aversives could be anything, 
right? 

733
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,280
And I thought that was really 
interesting. 

734
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,440
Like all this energy and effort 
goes to into a non starter 

735
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,720
really, if you think about it. 
So what kind of things can we do

736
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,240
to ensure that we kind of give 
ourselves the best opportunity 

737
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,240
to to to affect change through 
things like petitions? 

738
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,920
So trust the experts. 
So what I've learned a lot is 

739
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,280
everyone thinks they can 
understand how legislation and 

740
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,160
policy formation works and they 
they don't. 

741
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,560
It's like any job, you have to 
learn the craft of it. 

742
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,600
Now anyone can contact their MP,
anyone can campaign, anyone can 

743
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,400
care about an issue and make a 
difference. 

744
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,880
There's absolutely no doubt in 
my mind that's true, but the 

745
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,960
actual mechanisms of policy are 
more complicated than that. 

746
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,000
So what I'd say, and I'm not 
advocating for any big charities

747
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,520
here, give your donations to 
small charities, volunteer for 

748
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,480
small charities. 
But the big charities tend to 

749
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,480
know how to affect policy in the
best way possible, so it's 

750
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,600
always worth having a look. 
If there's an issue about dog 

751
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,400
training or something, it's 
always worth contacting, say 

752
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,520
Dogs Trust is that they'd say, 
what are you doing about this? 

753
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,040
What should, what's your line on
it? 

754
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,800
And you might find they've 
already got something and they 

755
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,239
are working on it already and 
they will probably be taking the

756
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:32,960
right lines because they 
understand, they're pretty 

757
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,920
expert understanding policy and 
how to influence government. 

758
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,639
Sometimes it's not, it's not 
impossible that some really 

759
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,880
random campaign that seems quite
niche can get through and have 

760
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,280
an impact. 
It has been done by people in 

761
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:46,800
the past. 
But on the whole, it's not how 

762
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,560
government works. 
It needs to be a policy that's 

763
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,960
constructed that fits into their
kind of environment, their 

764
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,600
policy environment is actually 
doable, is manageable, isn't 

765
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,080
going to drain a load of 
resource. 

766
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,840
There's loads of things we'd all
want that just cannot actually 

767
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,080
work in practise. 
For example, you know, the 

768
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,360
legislation just couldn't do it 
doesn't exist and it would take 

769
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,080
too long to get it done. 
So I would always say look for 

770
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,160
the experts, choose your kind of
key people and don't get carried

771
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,120
away down some strange pathway 
by someone that's just trying to

772
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,080
probably gather social media 
likes or following or donations 

773
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,480
or something like that. 
Just be careful. 

774
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,080
Yeah, That's super helpful. 
Thank you so much. 

775
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,120
These things can take a long 
time, right? 

776
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,360
And there's so many different 
issues to get behind. 

777
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,520
It's really hard sometimes to 
know where where one's energy 

778
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,280
should goes. 
But what's clear from what 

779
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,920
you've just shared with me is to
do as much of the legwork 

780
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,040
upfront and really think about 
it almost, you could almost 

781
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,480
liken it to a business plan. 
This is it's no, it's exactly 

782
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,480
that. 
So let's go back to the IHA for 

783
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:45,840
a moment. 
The government hasn't said 

784
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,800
they'll take the IHA on on and 
they haven't done anything about

785
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,360
district confirmation apart from
that tiny note in the liar regs 

786
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,320
in 2018. 
And we've all been asking for 

787
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,600
this for years. 
It's been 16 years of asking for

788
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,800
something. 
So we've decided just to bypass 

789
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,200
government, going to come up 
with something, show it work, 

790
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,840
show it's popular and then 
government can run and catch us 

791
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,600
up. 
So there is something for just 

792
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,000
sort of getting on and think, 
thinking of the solution and 

793
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,160
getting on with delivering it in
whatever way as you would a 

794
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,080
business and letting them come 
after you and sort of showing 

795
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,680
them how it works. 
There's many different ways to 

796
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,080
sort of come at policy change 
and legislative change. 

797
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,480
But at the end of the day, as 
you say, you set your plan and 

798
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,000
you have a sort of couple of 
routes for it. 

799
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,800
So with the IHA, our route is 
let's get it out to the public, 

800
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,240
let's get the public talking 
about extreme confirmation and 

801
00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:33,080
understanding it in a really 
layperson way. 

802
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,680
And then the other strand is 
we're going to work of the 

803
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,680
veterinary corporations and the 
local authority inspectors and 

804
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,440
schools and colleges and vet 
training places to get them to 

805
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,800
use the IHA. 
And then the third prong is, 

806
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,920
yeah, we will be annoying 
government saying why aren't you

807
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,640
doing this? 
This is your job, you should be 

808
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,080
doing this and protecting the 
welfare of animals. 

809
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,280
You say we're a world leading 
country, prove it, you know, put

810
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,200
this into legislation. 
This is how you do it. 

811
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,600
So you have your sort of various
prongs going on when it comes to

812
00:36:58,600 --> 00:36:59,840
policy. 
I love that. 

813
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,560
That's really strategic. 
How are you going to measure its

814
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,440
effectiveness? 
So the system's collecting data 

815
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,520
dogs, It's not collecting data 
on the person, but it's 

816
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,480
collecting data on the dog. 
So we can start to see the 

817
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,120
trends where dogs are failing. 
What the key is stream 

818
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:13,800
confirmations are coming 
through. 

819
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,200
So that allows us to get data, 
which then allows us to share 

820
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,480
that data potentially of 
insurance companies and things 

821
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,320
like that to get a better 
understanding. 

822
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:25,280
And then you start to create an 
environment where you get a 

823
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:26,880
certain dog. 
Well, actually your insurance 

824
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,000
premium is going to be higher 
because it's going to cost you 

825
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,880
more money at the vet. 
The insurance company is going 

826
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,480
to have to factor that in and 
you start drilling down on all 

827
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,520
of that. 
And I'm saying to the public, 

828
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,640
This is why it's a problem. 
It's not just a problem for the 

829
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,080
welfare of the dog, it's a 
problem for your welfare as well

830
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,280
and your wallet. 
So we'll be driving all of that 

831
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,320
through. 
So we've got sort of different 

832
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,040
ways to take it through, but 
also we will be collecting data,

833
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,120
doing analysis as we go through 
and sort of assessing its 

834
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,040
effectiveness, asking for 
feedback. 

835
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,480
We ran 2 pilots, 2 comprehensive
pilots before we launched it and

836
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,960
we will then do those pilots 
again to say what needs 

837
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,320
changing, what's sort of failing
here and just listening to 

838
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,000
feedback. 
Now, the IHA is not a perfect 

839
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,680
solution, don't get me wrong. 
You know when we first did it, 

840
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,800
we had a list of 25 criteria 
that were all serious and 

841
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,880
problematic. 
And actually there's more than 

842
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,560
that. 
There's a lot more than 25. 

843
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,840
We've watched it down to 10 
because we didn't want to 

844
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,080
overwhelm the public. 
We've watched it down to the 10 

845
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,560
that are the most common and 
have the most impact. 

846
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,960
We have got the evidence. 
This is all done off the back of

847
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,880
years and years of veterinary 
data coming into Veterinary 

848
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,160
Compass, which sits under the 
Royal Veterinary College. 

849
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,040
So we know these are issues. 
People have challenged us and 

850
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,560
said why did you pick these 10? 
Because the data supports that, 

851
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,240
the science supports it, but 
there's lots of other criteria 

852
00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:44,960
and we could review that as we 
go forward and say should more 

853
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,200
be added to it, should less, how
do we need to amend and change 

854
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,080
this? 
And we're also open to the fact 

855
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,120
that there are other solutions 
that need to take place as well.

856
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,280
There's all sorts of other 
assessments as veterinary 

857
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,240
involvement in different spaces.
The kennel are doing their own 

858
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,560
kind of form of innate health 
assessment now. 

859
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,680
There'll be lots of other stuff 
going on. 

860
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:06,840
Really we're we're very much at 
the early days and we had a 

861
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,320
meeting today to sort of say the
thing about this kind of project

862
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,720
is how much energy you've got to
carry on driving it. 

863
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,600
And we've done this pretty much 
pro bono. 

864
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,440
The team who's worked on it, we 
haven't been paid for it. 

865
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,560
We've had to put a huge amount 
of time into getting where it's 

866
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,280
where it's got to already. 
And we were sort of saying how 

867
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,000
much more energy have we got? 
Because if we just leave it, 

868
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:27,560
it'll just sort of float along. 
It'll be OK. 

869
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,880
People will use, we've had 1000 
people try it so far in the two 

870
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,640
weeks, which is great, but when 
does it start to sort of lose 

871
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,560
its profile? 
So we've come up for strategy 

872
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,800
next year of all the key moments
when we've got an opportunity 

873
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,400
and Christmas is an opportunity 
as well. 

874
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,000
People are going out getting 
puppies, so we're sort of 

875
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,520
mapping our opportunities to 
keep pushing it forward. 

876
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,040
And the more people that use it,
the more chance we've got of 

877
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,480
measuring its success basically 
and understanding the data, how 

878
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:53,960
it's working and what we can do 
of it. 

879
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,320
So all we're encouraging people 
to do is go and use it. 

880
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,560
Don't worry about not putting 
your microchip number in, use a 

881
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,120
false name if you want, just try
and be honest about the dog, 

882
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,200
take the dog through and see how
it comes out. 

883
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,760
And the IHA website at the end 
tells you exactly what you 

884
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,480
should do. 
If your dog has failed or failed

885
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,760
on any of the criteria, we're 
not just leaving you hanging in,

886
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,480
we can support you. 
Looking after your dog? 

887
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,960
We're not here to demonise any 
dogs or any owners. 

888
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,120
Yeah. 
What are we haven't really 

889
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,400
touched on it too much, but what
are what are some of the 

890
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:21,720
criteria? 
Yep. 

891
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:27,400
So basically it's nose length. 
So we asked people to assess the

892
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,600
length of the dog's muzzle. 
We asked them to look at the 

893
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,880
skin folds on their dog. 
We asked them to look at the 

894
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,920
tail length, the leg length. 
We give them measurements from 

895
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,040
shoulder to foot, bulging eyes, 
showing of the whites of the 

896
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,120
eyes around the cut. 
You know, the brown, the 

897
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,680
coloured bit, teeth alignment, 
things that you can look at the 

898
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,280
dog quite quickly and assess 
male colouring because male 

899
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,880
colouring is linked to a high 
prevalence of deafness and dogs.

900
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,920
So yeah, all things that people 
can visibly see. 

901
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,000
Straight legs, You see a lot of 
dogs with really bowed legs, 

902
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,160
that's linked to huge welfare 
problems. 

903
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,560
The sort of straightness of the 
legs is one of them. 

904
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,200
All things that you can look at.
And when we did the pilots and 

905
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,800
tested this, people were able to
undertake the IHA in less than 

906
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,520
two minutes and take their dog 
through it. 

907
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,840
So it's all really clear, 
obvious things. 

908
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,840
And there might be people 
listening who kind of go, well, 

909
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,360
my dog's Mull, I don't, you know
what a load of rubbish my dog's 

910
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,360
fine your dog might be. 
But as I said, the science is 

911
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,960
showing that the majority of 
Mull dogs are not OK within the 

912
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,960
IHA. 
It's 10 criteria, but you can 

913
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,760
fail two of them and still pass 
because we're giving that 

914
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,880
wriggle room at the moment to, 
again, not be too oppressive and

915
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,040
not to scare people off. 
We want them to use this and 

916
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,000
understand and if their dog 
fails any of them, at least they

917
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,280
can walk away and think about 
what that means and their future

918
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:41,440
decisions. 
I would. 

919
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,360
What I want in the future is 
people to go. 

920
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,320
I can't believe you've got a dog
with a nose like that. 

921
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,760
It's so cruel. 
That's quite a strong thing to 

922
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,040
say, but that's a sort of 10 
year project or something. 

923
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,000
We need social movement to 
change this more than anything, 

924
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,520
more than legislation. 100% But 
what is the vision here? 

925
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,680
What does utopia look like from 
a dog's perspective? 

926
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,200
Well, Utopia, I mean, it's sort 
of going back in history, back 

927
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,760
to how dogs used to look in a 
way, but it is basically 

928
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,640
eliminating those extreme 
confirmations so that we know 

929
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,080
every dog has a chance of having
a good life. 

930
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,720
We might not be able to stop it 
getting cancer. 

931
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:17,440
We might not be able to stop it 
getting run over by a car, but 

932
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,760
we're getting it the best chance
of having a good pain free life 

933
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,960
without suffering. 
And I think that that I think 

934
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,920
everyone would support that. 
I think every member of the 

935
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,280
public would want that. 
We got got a really good 

936
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,680
coverage in the Telegraph and 
the day we launched the profile 

937
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,640
was really, really good, very 
enthusiastic. 

938
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,880
But actually I went straight to 
the comments to see what people 

939
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,760
were saying. 
So I expected them to be saying 

940
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,840
there's nothing wrong with my 
bulldog or there's nothing wrong

941
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,920
with my whatever. 
But actually the public seemed 

942
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,320
to get it. 
And they were all like, I can't 

943
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,360
believe we've done this, this is
a disgrace, we must stop it. 

944
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,040
You know, this is terrible. 
My friend's got a dog that can't

945
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,120
breathe. 
I see it panting or drooling 

946
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,160
everywhere or staggering down 
the pavement and things. 

947
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:56,520
You know, people don't want 
this. 

948
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,640
People love dogs. 
We all love dogs. 

949
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,960
And it might just be that we 
haven't understood what that 

950
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,560
extreme confirmation does to our
dog. 

951
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,320
It might be that it's got a 
minor level of it, but it's 

952
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,480
still a level that we should be 
getting rid of. 

953
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,560
So the future looks like getting
rid of those 10 extreme 

954
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,840
confirmations that are in the 
criteria and then moving on to 

955
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,960
the other ones and gradually 
eliminating them all until every

956
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,360
dog bread is healthy has got a 
chance of being healthy. 

957
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,440
Amazing. 
So what's supposed to be 

958
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,040
happening? 
Let's say for example, I'm 

959
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,440
interested in buying a puppy. 
I go to the breeder, I see the 

960
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,120
puppy, he she doesn't meet the 
criteria of the assessment. 

961
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,320
What happens then to that puppy?
Do I just is, is the goal to let

962
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,160
the breeder know? 
Nope, sorry. 

963
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,640
Is this supposed to pressure 
them to do things the right way?

964
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,240
Supposed to change the market 
demand, which means the Breeders

965
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:45,000
will breed better dogs to keep 
their businesses going. 

966
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,120
There is there is a short term 
risk of people sort of going to 

967
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,600
see puppies and saying no, we 
don't want them and what happens

968
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,640
to those puppies. 
Of course there is we've sort of

969
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,800
factored that in and we've had 
conversations with the rescue 

970
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,720
charities and things about what 
that could look like. 

971
00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:59,280
But we don't see it as a as a 
huge risk. 

972
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,920
We're not talking about massive 
numbers and the IHA is going to 

973
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,800
be quite slow to sort of move 
in. 

974
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,880
We are saying again, you know, I
mean, at the end of the day, if 

975
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,960
they're breeding their dog and 
selling it and you're going to 

976
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,920
look at it, they should have 
been licenced and they should 

977
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,000
have been meeting the 
legislation under the liar, 

978
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,200
which includes the point that 
they shouldn't be breeding dogs 

979
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,560
like that. 
So for us to kind of just say we

980
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,400
can't do anything about this 
because of those dogs being bred

981
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,000
right now, which might not be 
home to potentially because 

982
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:27,600
people say they've got extreme 
confirmation. 

983
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,800
I can't have them, which as I 
said, I don't think will happen 

984
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,320
in that many cases at the 
moment. 

985
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,040
This is a slow build up. 
We can't stop trying to change 

986
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:35,960
the future for other dogs coming
for. 

987
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,000
We've got to get hold of this. 
And I think that's been one of 

988
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,600
the issues, people would have 
been too scared to tackle this 

989
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,440
because it's like, oh, what if 
we upset the Breeders? 

990
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:43,600
What if we upset the breed 
clubs? 

991
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,000
What if we are, you know, end up
with dogs that can't find homes 

992
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,800
because they've got extreme 
confirmation? 

993
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,800
But we're just creating this 
never ending cycle of breeding 

994
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,160
these dogs. 
So we have to grasp that and 

995
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:55,960
tackle it. 
And you know, our partners on 

996
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,880
this, we've been supported by 
Battistly and Blue Cross and 

997
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,200
RSPCA and PDSA and all of those 
charities. 

998
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,920
He supported us and we've worked
through those issues. 

999
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,320
I saw also that there's a, there
was a collaboration with a 

1000
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,560
company called Pet Proof, Yeah. 
And I looked into them this the 

1001
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,760
first time I'd heard of them and
I thought there was a really 

1002
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,440
interesting concept. 
What was their involvement 

1003
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,480
within this project? 
So pet proof had come about 

1004
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,000
because the two people who run 
it, Kate and Gary, are tech tech

1005
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,360
experts. 
Hate had been ripped off by a 

1006
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,320
person who told her a puppy that
didn't exist, say fraud 

1007
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:29,920
basically. 
And that happens a lot. 

1008
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:31,960
I think it's like one out of 
five puppies doesn't actually 

1009
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,440
exist. 
It gets sold or something. 

1010
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:34,920
So a lot of people are being 
ripped off. 

1011
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,360
So basically set up this company
that basically said they would 

1012
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,720
register breeders and make sure 
they were verified and 

1013
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:42,080
legitimate people. 
So you weren't sort of dealing 

1014
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,480
with someone who didn't exist or
someone who was hiding behind a 

1015
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,520
facade or something. 
They came to App Gore and the 

1016
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,920
Canine Feline Sector Group to 
help build support for what they

1017
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,560
were trying to do. 
And as we were talking, the App 

1018
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,000
Gore and Danny know, we were 
sort of talking about what to do

1019
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,520
with the NA health assessment. 
We'd designed these these 

1020
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,320
criteria. 
We'd come out of this scheme, 

1021
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,600
but we were like, now what do we
do with it? 

1022
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,520
Because at the end of the day 
it's just a website with some 

1023
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,120
words on it. 
Again, how are we going to get 

1024
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,880
people to understand this? 
We need a mechanism to deliver 

1025
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,840
it. 
And we got chatting to them and 

1026
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,120
they were like, well, that's 
what we do. 

1027
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,880
Why don't we build a website and
put the tool on it? 

1028
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,200
So it was serendipity really 
that we came across people who 

1029
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,000
could do this at the right time,
who for their business, long 

1030
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,480
term business interests, they 
did a lot of work pro bono, but 

1031
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,120
for their long term aims as 
well, it's sort of ticks the 

1032
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,440
boxes for them. 
So yeah, they designed their 

1033
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,520
whole tool, they run the tool 
and it makes sure that it's all 

1034
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,200
compliant. 
GDPR, it's secure, the data is 

1035
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,160
protected and we've got the 
ability to analyse it through 

1036
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:41,800
them. 
So it's been really, really 

1037
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,560
fortunate to come across them. 
Now it's really sounds like a 

1038
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:45,680
match made in heaven. 
Really. 

1039
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,080
Is that tool integrated within 
their own platform now as well? 

1040
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,440
They've got it on their own 
platform as well, but only the 

1041
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,160
tool. 
And we would say to that, I 

1042
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,320
mean, that's fine for people who
are just going into the tool, 

1043
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,960
but actually the app core IHA 
site sort of sets out what we're

1044
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:01,960
trying to achieve and how it was
built and gives you all the 

1045
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,600
information. 
So if you fail the IHA or you 

1046
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,080
have issues, there's resources 
on there to understand more 

1047
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,240
about it. 
So we're really trying to 

1048
00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:13,160
encourage people to use the tool
within the IHA website itself so

1049
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,320
they can get all of those extra 
benefits from it. 

1050
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,760
Sounds good. 
What do you think it says about 

1051
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,360
us that we've reached this 
point? 

1052
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,840
Us as a society, as a culture, 
as individuals. 

1053
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,920
I mean, it's just so 
interesting, isn't it? 

1054
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,880
How? 
I mean, I, I've worked on animal

1055
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,360
welfare for a long time and as I
said at the beginning of the 

1056
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,240
podcast, this is a big, huge 
welfare problem right under our 

1057
00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:35,160
nose. 
You know, there's between 10 and

1058
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,840
11,000,000 dogs in the UK. 
Not all of them have extreme 

1059
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,520
confirmation. 
It's a percentage of them farm 

1060
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,040
animals. 
You're talking about millions of

1061
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:43,360
animals. 
So that's obviously a big 

1062
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,920
welfare issue. 
But companion animals, we pride 

1063
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,120
ourselves as being really high 
welfare and looking after our 

1064
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,800
pets really well and being a 
nation of animal lovers. 

1065
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,760
But we've let this kind of 
secret, unwanted thing enter our

1066
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,040
homes and it's right there and 
we've accepted it's completely 

1067
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,320
normal and we've taken an animal
and changed the way it looks to 

1068
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,480
suit our needs, our vision of 
what they should look like, 

1069
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:06,720
which I think it's really 
horrible. 

1070
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:09,240
I think it's pretty terrible 
actually, that we've allowed 

1071
00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:11,080
that to happen. 
I'm not saying it's anyone's 

1072
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:14,040
fault in this existence. 
It's something that's crept in 

1073
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,320
over time. 
Lots of people have either 

1074
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,640
turned a blind eye or just 
thought it was the right thing 

1075
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,640
to do accidentally. 
Who knows? 

1076
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,320
There'll be lots of reasons for 
it, but it is it is quite 

1077
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,800
terrible just to the most loved 
animal. 

1078
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,360
I think dogs probably are up 
there as the most loved animals.

1079
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,800
I'm sure cats will try and rival
them, but I think dogs are that 

1080
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,920
we've allowed this to happen and
it's been a deliberate thing 

1081
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,720
we've done, so we have to change
it with it's a moral duty of us 

1082
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:41,840
to return dogs to how they 
should be. 

1083
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,160
Absolutely. 
Just thinking about social 

1084
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,840
media, how much of an impact do 
you think that has on the 

1085
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,760
normalisation of what we would 
deem as normal? 

1086
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,720
Yeah, I mean, it's it's got a 
massive impact because the 

1087
00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:55,800
trends we have seen over the 
last five to 6-7 years have been

1088
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,760
look, celebrity led by having 
sort of pocket dogs, you know, 

1089
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,120
handbag dogs, whatever you call 
them, pocket dogs, They'd be 

1090
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,560
really small to that handbag 
dogs and, and dogs with extreme 

1091
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,400
confirmation and showing them 
sort of snorting and snoring 

1092
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,120
when they're breathing or 
slobbering everywhere or sort of

1093
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,800
staggering down the road as a 
kind of way to get more likes 

1094
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,520
and following and things. 
It's just become really normal. 

1095
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,080
So it's had a massive impact. 
But on the plus side, it also 

1096
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,280
gives us a platform to be able 
to talk about the other stuff. 

1097
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,680
You know, we've got our social 
media platforms as well, which 

1098
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,240
we will start to use more and 
more, I mean, you know, going 

1099
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:31,320
into the new year. 
So we've got an opportunity as 

1100
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,920
well to talk about this issue. 
So it's certainly driven it a 

1101
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:36,160
lot. 
Yeah, there's a lot of 

1102
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,800
responsibility on on what people
have been showing others on 

1103
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:40,680
social media and people have 
been sort of saying I've got to 

1104
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,200
have that dog. 
So and so he's got it. 

1105
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,080
And there's whole like 
platforms, there's whole 

1106
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,280
influences that just do things 
on a certain dog, like pugs or 

1107
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:48,960
something. 
And they have sort of 200 

1108
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,920
followers just to sort of see 
them dressing their pugs up or 

1109
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:53,800
sitting with their pugs or 
something. 

1110
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,360
So people are interested in this
stuff. 

1111
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,360
People really are. 
I don't know if it's seen as a 

1112
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,560
kind of subconscious like 
entertainment and then what 

1113
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,840
happens is repeated exposure 
actually normalises that thing, 

1114
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,600
not realising that it was 
totally abnormal. 

1115
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,280
I think it's the same thing with
this kind of these kind of cruel

1116
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,360
videos where something happens 
to the dog and people think it's

1117
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,080
funny and that becomes 
normalised because it's 

1118
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,880
entertainment value rather than 
considering the dog's experience

1119
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,760
within that. 
I think like shifting a culture,

1120
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,120
and that's especially what this 
podcast hopes to achieve in the 

1121
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,920
long run, is to get people to 
think about the dogs experience 

1122
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:32,840
within that. 
Thing and we're all but we're 

1123
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,320
all guilty of that, you know, I 
mean, I kiss my dog and she 

1124
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,840
probably hates it. 
She probably thinks, what the 

1125
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,720
hell are you doing all the time?
I just can't resist it. 

1126
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:41,280
But I probably annoy her doing 
that. 

1127
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,200
I mean, we put our own feelings 
and thoughts onto our dogs, 

1128
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,360
don't we really? 
Yeah, yeah, 100%. 

1129
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,040
I catch myself doing these 
things all day every day. 

1130
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,720
But it's it's having the ability
to have that self-awareness and 

1131
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:56,560
to just consider for a moment 
what the other, the other's 

1132
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:01,120
experience is within this very 
restrictive human world. 

1133
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,240
Yeah, actually that and it's 
exactly that. 

1134
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:07,080
So yeah, I mean, I just think 
it's we love our dogs. 

1135
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,600
They are part of our family and 
you wouldn't want a member of 

1136
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,240
your family to be suffering or 
in having severe difficulty 

1137
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:15,720
doing every everything on a 
daily basis, which is just 

1138
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:17,880
because the way we as humans 
have chosen to breed them. 

1139
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,400
Do you do you think if dogs 
could speak directly to us about

1140
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,520
the bodies that we've bred for 
them, what do you think they 

1141
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,440
would ask for? 
So the most important thing for 

1142
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,000
a dog is understanding its 
natural behaviour. 

1143
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,600
It's the same of horses, for 
example, horses or flight 

1144
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,120
animals, they don't want to be 
sort of cooped up, they want to 

1145
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,120
be able to move around all day. 
And we've put horses in fields 

1146
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,080
and they can't sort of have that
movement as well. 

1147
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,040
So it's not just dogs, but as I 
say with dogs we've kind of 

1148
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,840
decided that they need to fit 
into our lifestyles completely, 

1149
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,040
whether it is staying in a crate
all day whilst we go to work or 

1150
00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:54,600
not getting the walk because we 
don't want to go for the walk or

1151
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,360
being on a sofa with us. 
You know, people feed their dogs

1152
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,120
human food, all sorts of things,
feeling that they're part of the

1153
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,880
family. 
I think dogs would just simply 

1154
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,960
say I want to be able to do what
a dog does. 

1155
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,680
Dogs like to socialise and 
there's huge evidence that shows

1156
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,160
because of extreme confirmation,
they can't socialise properly 

1157
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:11,640
which is affecting their 
behaviour. 

1158
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,680
That's a massive thing. 
That's like being the bullied 

1159
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,680
kid in school. 
Every time you go out, every dog

1160
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,920
has a go at you or tries to sort
of attack you or just ignores 

1161
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,160
you because of the way you look.
So dogs want to be happy, they 

1162
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:23,800
want to perform their natural 
behaviour. 

1163
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,000
They like to run, they like to 
snuggle up, they want to be able

1164
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,240
to wash themselves, including 
their back ends. 

1165
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,400
And if they can't bend their 
spine because of that, that is 

1166
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,720
horrendous for them. 
That's really frustrating. 

1167
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,680
All the things you and I 
naturally want to do, a dog 

1168
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,920
wants to be able to do what they
can naturally do as well. 

1169
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,360
So that's all they'd ask for. 
They'd say just make sure I can 

1170
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,640
do what I need to do, that I can
breathe, that I can run, that I 

1171
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,200
can play, that I can eat. 
All the basics. 

1172
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:47,240
Tick, tick. 
Tick, tick. 

1173
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:49,560
Yeah. 
Yeah, one last thing, What keeps

1174
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,440
you up at night as in like 
within the dog world, what's 

1175
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,200
what's the next thing or the 
thing that you've still feel 

1176
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,920
passionately about that that's 
unresolved? 

1177
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,640
Internationally, there's the 
international issues of the fact

1178
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,200
we still have dog meat trades 
and things like that, which I 

1179
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,320
just think so, so abhorrent and 
awful. 

1180
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,360
We're sort of limited what we 
can do from here, lecturing to 

1181
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,080
other countries what they can 
and can't do. 

1182
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,520
But you know, we've got to try 
because it's just absolutely 

1183
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,800
horrendous. 
And I guess the current sort of 

1184
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,760
situation is the relinquishment 
of pets and things that's 

1185
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,680
happening at the moment and 
numbers are really spiking 

1186
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:25,200
because of cost of living and 
things. 

1187
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,880
And I think that's, you know, 
something that we've got to 

1188
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,520
think about how we help vets. 
Bills, for example, there's a 

1189
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,360
Competition Market Authority 
analysis of that going on at the

1190
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,640
moment because a lot of people 
are being priced out of the 

1191
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,960
vetri treatment and that's only 
likely to get worse. 

1192
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,040
I think with cost of living, 
people treat their dogs 

1193
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,120
suffering because they can't 
afford to go to the vet and 

1194
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,560
thinks how do we tackle that? 
It's really difficult. 

1195
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,360
Really, really difficult. 
It just as a quick example, I 

1196
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,880
took my dog to have her nails 
clipped and I know it's not the 

1197
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,920
vet, say vet, but I'm talking 
about the business, not the 

1198
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:59,400
actual vet. 
And yeah, she was there for all 

1199
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,840
of 5 minutes, had 6 nails 
clipped because the rest were, 

1200
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,000
you know, short enough and it 
was 36 lbs. 

1201
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:11,160
Then I went down the road on a 
walk earlier this week and I 

1202
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,400
just saw another. 
Then I thought, oh let me just 

1203
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,240
go check, maybe they're cheaper 
and then I can just go swap 

1204
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,920
bets. 
They were £41.50 for nail 

1205
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,880
clipping. 
Which means everyone will do at 

1206
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,240
home and forget about the nerves
that are in dogs claws and dogs 

1207
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:27,720
will end up getting their poor 
nerves cut left, right and 

1208
00:54:27,720 --> 00:54:30,080
centre, not because the owners 
are doing anything mean, but 

1209
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,320
just because they think, oh, I 
have to do it myself. 

1210
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,840
So that I think the veterinary 
issue is a really problematic 

1211
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,520
one because vets are struggling.
You know, vets are sort of 

1212
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:39,880
saying they're suffering from 
mental health. 

1213
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,000
There's a lot of vets who don't 
want to work in everyday 

1214
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:43,760
practises because it's really 
hard. 

1215
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,880
I'm euthanizing dogs, seeing 
people come in with, you know, 

1216
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,320
dogs of extreme confirmation 
that they can't sort of tell 

1217
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,040
them anything about because 
they're not there to give them a

1218
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:53,600
lecture. 
You know, they've got all these 

1219
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,080
challenges facing them, but then
people can't afford to keep 

1220
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:58,920
paying more. 
It costs a fortune. 

1221
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,640
So I just, that's a really 
complex one because I don't see 

1222
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,680
how legislations you can't say 
to the veterinary sort of 

1223
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,320
services you can only charge 
this amount of money you need 

1224
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,680
like schemes. 
But a lot of the charities are 

1225
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,320
pulling back on free veterinary.
You know, they some often have 

1226
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,520
programmes for free veterinary 
help and because of the NI 

1227
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,160
increases last year, they're 
letting go of staff and they're 

1228
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,200
cutting back and a number of 
them have said we won't be 

1229
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,120
offering free veterinary 
consultations anymore. 

1230
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,840
So if you're on low income or 
you're on pension or something, 

1231
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,400
he's relying on your pet for 
company and well-being, mental 

1232
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:30,800
health, all of those sorts of 
things. 

1233
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,200
It's really difficult. 
People will just be Googling and

1234
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,520
using AI to treat their dogs and
that could have really serious 

1235
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:37,640
consequences. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1236
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:40,560
Who Just out of interest, who 
would I speak to more about 

1237
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,040
this? 
Because this is a topic that 

1238
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,920
absolutely fascinates me. 
I would love to know more about 

1239
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,720
kind of because it's a consumer 
protection thing as well, isn't 

1240
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:49,480
it? 
I don't have beef with vets. 

1241
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,720
I understand the problem for 
them, but as it business model, 

1242
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:54,200
something's gotta give. 
Yeah. 

1243
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,360
So I mean there's an 
organisation called the British 

1244
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:01,040
Veterinary Association that kind
of represent bets and are there 

1245
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,160
to speak to these sorts of 
issues. 

1246
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,360
They are looking, and I expect 
it will be announced in that 

1247
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,120
animal welfare strategy that I 
mentioned coming out on the 22nd

1248
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:14,360
of December at amending the 
Veterinary Surgeons Act to allow

1249
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,200
more paraprofessionals. 
So veterinary nurses and things 

1250
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:21,040
to be recognised and able to 
perform some of the treatments 

1251
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,680
which could reduce the price a 
bit from using a vet because we 

1252
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,440
have a shortage of vets in the 
UK. 

1253
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,640
So there's sort of things going 
on there. 

1254
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,120
We at GO will probably hold a 
meeting on it next year to try 

1255
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,720
and address this issue because 
it has been raised of us a few 

1256
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:37,720
times of what what is going to 
happen. 

1257
00:56:37,720 --> 00:56:40,600
There will be huge parts of the 
UK where you have high 

1258
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,400
deprivation and people will not 
be able to access veterinary 

1259
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,680
treatments. 
So I expect we will talk about 

1260
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,880
it as well at some point. 
But yeah, probably the British 

1261
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,280
Veterinary Association would be 
the main organisation to say 

1262
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:52,520
what are you going to do about 
that? 

1263
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,200
At the moment they're dealing 
with the CMA consequences that 

1264
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,320
have come out of the, somebody's
saying to me today is Sweden, 

1265
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,400
they've got an interesting model
where you have to go to the 

1266
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,520
pharmacy and get your veterinary
medication and take it to the 

1267
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,400
vet. 
So the vet isn't allowed to sell

1268
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,840
you veterinary medication 
because the vet practise as a 

1269
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,000
corporate, if it's a 
corporation, potentially making 

1270
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,400
make much bigger markups on 
there. 

1271
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,600
So if they put it with the 
pharmacy, you get it for like 

1272
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:19,080
human medicines about sort of 
huge markups and making it too 

1273
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,240
commercial. 
And I wondered, was that a sort 

1274
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,280
of way of dealing with things 
and being able to get access to 

1275
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,040
veterinary medicine, but then 
using your own veterinary 

1276
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,240
medicine without a vet there 
would be also problematic in 

1277
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:31,680
many ways? 
Very. 

1278
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:35,040
Yeah. 
It's a fascinating topic and 

1279
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,360
super, super complex. 
Really enjoyed this, so much to 

1280
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,360
think about and thank you so 
much for everything that you do 

1281
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,360
for dogs and for humans. 
No problem, thanks for speaking 

1282
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:44,680
to me.