1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,640 Hello and welcome to Just a Dog Podcast. 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,320 I'm your host, Nadine. If you asked me what kind of 3 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,920 person I believe I am, I would say I'm a good, honest and kind 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,160 person. And I would estimate that you'd 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,320 likely say the same if I asked you what kind of person you 6 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,000 believe that you are. But sometimes, without even 7 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,840 knowing it, we literally fund and fuel the most cruel and 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,920 barbaric systems that affect animals and the environment and 9 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,840 even people around the world. From tourism to the products 10 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,960 that we purchase to the food that we consume, we fuel the 11 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,080 system, often without realising it. 12 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,560 I recently recorded an episode with Abigail Forsythe. 13 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,960 Abigail is the campaign manager for Peter Asia, working to end 14 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,760 animal exploitation by leading campaigns to protect animals and 15 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,400 inspire compassionate action. Abigail mentioned that almost 16 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:54,440 every system that uses animals is designed so that we don't see 17 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,720 what's actually happening. The packaging is clean, the 18 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,280 marketing is clever and air. Everything looks fine. 19 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,599 And because it looks fine, we don't ask questions. 20 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,720 And because we don't ask questions, nothing changes. 21 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,160 In this episode, we talked about the dog meat trade and what's 22 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,440 behind the ban in South Korea. We talked about what's really 23 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,240 going on in shelters and puppy mills, and we also talked about 24 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,880 the dog leather industry, something that I had no idea 25 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:25,760 even existed. We talked about how things that 26 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,400 used to be completely normal, like riding elephants or going 27 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,720 to the circle or even greyhound racing are now things that 28 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,040 people would be embarrassed to admit that they did, and what 29 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,200 that tells us about how quickly perceptions can shift when 30 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:40,880 people are given the information. 31 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,920 This episode wasn't recorded to shame anyone or to make you feel 32 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,000 bad for choices that you have made. 33 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,080 The aim is simply to plant a seed of awareness and that is 34 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,160 it. So if you learn something new, 35 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,320 please share this episode with a friend and be the person that 36 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,760 plans to seed for them. Let's begin. 37 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,920 Hello. It's so nice to meet you. 38 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:05,520 Thank you. Nice to meet you too. 39 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,360 Where are you dialling in from at the moment? 40 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,160 So I'm currently in Thailand. I came here 12 years ago as a 41 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,840 teacher and worked in a British International School for like 8 42 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,200 years and then I've been working for Peter for the last four 43 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,200 years. Wow, that's quite the 44 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,640 transition. So going from a teacher to 45 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:29,160 working for Peter, what was the catalyst for you? 46 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,240 I think I had been teaching at that point for 10 years. 47 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,640 And although the two jobs seem, you know, completely different 48 00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:42,160 and unrelated, I think there are kind of some similarities of 49 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:47,040 having compassion for children are vulnerable, animals are 50 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,880 vulnerable. They both need our protection 51 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,920 and looking after. Yeah. 52 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:55,400 I love working with children, but I also love working with 53 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:56,200 animals. Yeah. 54 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,720 So I think, you know, some of the skills maybe collapse a 55 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,440 little bit and, you know, they're both just, you know, 56 00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:09,040 jobs where you really just need to show compassion on a daily 57 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,440 basis. I believe teaching is very 58 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,720 meaningful. And yeah, working in animal 59 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,880 protection to me is just as meaningful. 60 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,080 So I was based in Thailand at the time and just started 61 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,320 volunteering for Peter Asia during my spare time from 62 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,480 teaching. I was vegan already, so it 63 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,040 always cared about animals from a young age. 64 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,120 And then once I'd gone vegan, you know, everything just kind 65 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,080 of fell into place in my mind of, of how animals should be 66 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,360 treated and, and how we should be not even necessarily working 67 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,440 to protect them, but just not causing them any harm and 68 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,880 suffering. And it's the very least that 69 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,080 that we can all do. And then eventually took a full 70 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,960 time job and moved away from teaching and. 71 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,200 Here I am, yeah. Any regrets? 72 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,600 No, no, I'm very happy in the the position and I'm in. 73 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:05,440 And I love that I can contribute in any way possible to helping 74 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,560 animals and to ending animal suffering. 75 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,760 And, you know, this work is really needed everywhere in the 76 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,000 world. But you know, of course Asia is 77 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,399 a huge region. So there's a lot of work to be 78 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:19,640 done. And yeah, it's, it's great. 79 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,880 It's a privilege to to be part of that. 80 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:23,960 What does your day-to-day? Look like yes. 81 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,120 So I'm the campaign manager at Peter Asia. 82 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,160 So our days can vary very a lot, which is great. 83 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,520 It's continues to be exciting. And there's always new things to 84 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:40,560 do, new things to plan. And yeah, Peter is committed to 85 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,840 establishing and protecting the rights of all animals. 86 00:04:43,840 --> 00:04:50,680 So we to encourage companies to, you know, enact policies that 87 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,120 better protect animals. We work to persuade governments 88 00:04:54,120 --> 00:05:00,680 to improve legislation to reduce suffering and we also work with 89 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:05,080 celebrities or influencers and we try and get the message to 90 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:10,000 the most people as possible and we also organise St campaigns 91 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,480 and and try to get support that way. 92 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,800 So we have campaigns that we are working on on a daily basis and 93 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,480 these campaigns can go on for weeks or years or some of them 94 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,920 will be unfortunately indefinite. 95 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,760 Um, but then we also have things that crop up, um, you know, 96 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,400 reports of abuse and that we would then deal with immediately 97 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,880 things that are happening in the news or something new issue that 98 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,800 is affecting animals. Um, for example, just last week 99 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:48,880 in Thailand, a huge number, it was over 70 tigers died at a 100 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,880 facility in northern Thailand. So that's something that we 101 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,800 didn't plan for the previous day, but suddenly comes up that 102 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:02,160 we would then try to insert our opinion and in that story and, 103 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:07,240 and help the public to, to understand the consequences of, 104 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,760 of their actions when it comes to animals and the, the, the 105 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,440 things they choose to spend their money on other places they 106 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,480 choose to visit, especially when they're on holiday and, and how 107 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,960 that can affect animals lives. Yeah, absolutely. 108 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,360 I was just thinking last night, actually knowing that I was 109 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,640 going to speak to you and that you were calling in from Asia. 110 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,400 Just thinking about my trip to Bali. 111 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,200 I've been there a couple of times and just thinking about 112 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:35,000 Luwak coffee and, and remembering going to try the 113 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,040 coffee and seeing the Luwak in the cage and feeling a bit 114 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,440 uncomfortable with that. And people kept reassuring us 115 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,960 it's not from, you know, it's, it's all ethical. 116 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,800 But when you're like when someone tells you something but 117 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,000 what you see is contradicting that. 118 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,600 Yeah. How do you think or why do you 119 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,880 think? I guess Hu, humans have that 120 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,240 disconnect. I guess I think it's cognitive 121 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,840 dissonance. Why, in your experience, from 122 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:06,760 what you've observed, do we tend to disconnect what is ethical 123 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,560 and with what is? Comfortable. 124 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,520 I think a lot of the time the realities behind any of these 125 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,280 industries are hidden to us in general as as consumers or as 126 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,520 Taurus, you know, as consumers, we're faced with packaging that 127 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:27,800 makes any product look neat and tidy and you have happy animals 128 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,160 on the, the front of the product and you're hidden from what 129 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,680 actually happened to an animal prior to you being able to 130 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,640 purchase that product. And the same across all 131 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,920 industries. Even with pet shops, again, you 132 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,440 know, you're faced with the, the cute baby animals, you don't see 133 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,760 the, the breeding factories that are going on behind the scenes 134 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,200 and and the the tourist industry. 135 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,360 I think people have just gotten so used to seeing animals in 136 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,800 cages. Children are taken to zoos as a 137 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,920 activity in the school holidays. It's so normalised that you 138 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,960 don't, we don't actually stop to think that, you know, when you 139 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,240 go to the zoo, that's one fun day of your holiday. 140 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,800 But for an animal that's their entire life. 141 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,320 And yeah, again, as you mentioned with the the Kobe 142 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,400 Lurek, so many tourists have taken to these facilities 143 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,120 without even expecting it. It's not something they ask for. 144 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,440 It's not something hoping to see on their trip to Bali. 145 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,440 But, you know, drivers just take them there as part of a tour. 146 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,919 And, you know, then people can almost feel awkward to say they 147 00:08:38,919 --> 00:08:41,720 don't want to be there or because it's you're suddenly 148 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,200 there and it's unexpected and you're a bit surprised and 149 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,640 shocked. And yeah, then, you know, people 150 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,320 will always just tell us what they think we want to hear. 151 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,200 And we would often believe it just to protect ourselves. 152 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,960 I think, you know, we don't want to ever think of ourselves as 153 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:03,160 contributing to animal abuse and animal suffering. 154 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,280 So we tried to take ourselves out of the equation and, you 155 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,360 know, put the blame elsewhere or tell ourselves that it's not 156 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:16,240 what we can clearly see it is. So yeah, I think a lot of that 157 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,280 is self preservation. People don't want to admit to 158 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,480 doing something wrong. They don't want to change what 159 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,440 they're doing. And also clever marketing 160 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,560 tactics to hide the the truth and the reality of a lot of 161 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:31,480 industries around the world where animals are suffering. 162 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,040 Yeah. The thing that I struggle with 163 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,080 is obviously a lot of us like we don't know everything about 164 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,640 everything. And so I guess awareness is 165 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,240 really important in understanding the many ways in 166 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,440 which human decisions affect or exploit animals, whether it's 167 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,560 upstream, downstream, 50 touch points away. 168 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,720 And then when it comes to things like veganism or doing things 169 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,440 correctly or right or whatever, all of those things are really 170 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,480 important. But it almost feels like a 171 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,720 mammoth task because there are things that you're aware of and 172 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,360 there are things that you're not aware of that you're aware of, 173 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,640 and there's things that you're not even aware of that you're 174 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,640 not even aware of. So somewhere along the line, 175 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,320 you're going to be impacting animals anyway. 176 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,560 How do you kind of consolidate with that in your not just 177 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:24,600 veganism, but in the work that you do to try and do as much 178 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,520 good and positive in the world without overwhelming yourself? 179 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,200 Yeah, I mean, I think that almost every issue that animals 180 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,040 face in the world are caused by humans. 181 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,760 So that also means that human can help every issue that 182 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,600 animals are facing in the world. And you know, of course, we all 183 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,480 can't fix everything. And you know, it is overwhelming 184 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,440 when you stop to think how animals are suffering in just so 185 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,000 many different ways in so many different places. 186 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,000 But you know, as I mentioned before, you don't have to work 187 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,200 in animal protection. You don't have to. 188 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:02,280 You don't even have to be an animal person. 189 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,560 You just have to look at the ways that you are maybe 190 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:09,680 contributing to to animal suffering and to reduce or 191 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:12,720 eliminate those. For me, working in, in animal 192 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,760 protection, it just, it helps me, you know, I know that 193 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,760 there's so much suffering going on in the world, but trying to 194 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,040 do something about it is how I can, you know, kind of live in 195 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,600 in a world that that can be so cruel. 196 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,880 And by just knowing that, hopefully I'm having even a 197 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,920 little bit of difference for animals. 198 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,160 Yeah, I feel the same way. I think after my dad passed 199 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,960 away, it got me thinking a lot about things like legacy. 200 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,720 And so I was thinking what could I sustainably do for the rest of 201 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,520 my life and make positive impact on the world. 202 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:46,720 And it was just a no brainer for me. 203 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,120 Focus on dogs. You know, they bring me the most 204 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,240 joy, but also conversely the most, I guess, sadness in terms 205 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,080 of how the world treats them and how, I guess the lack of 206 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,680 awareness. So yeah, what? 207 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,560 What do you hope your legacy would be in the world? 208 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:06,080 Yeah, I hope that people who who know me will know my compassion 209 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:11,560 for animals and, and my passion and drive to to try and reduce 210 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,480 their suffering and to improve animals lives. 211 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,880 And, and you know, whether or not I will make huge impacts, 212 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,880 let's say, but I will certainly work every day to, to try. 213 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:29,840 And even if you can just help, you know, a few animals that 214 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,320 make such a difference to to their lives. 215 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,720 And that's huge. And if we could all have a 216 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,280 little impact on the world in any way possible, then yeah, 217 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,640 together we can. We can all have real, meaningful 218 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,960 change. What I'm curious about is the 219 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,440 the kind of Western approach or the Western awareness of what 220 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,680 people would consider to be unethical, which might be 221 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:54,920 normal, considered normal, or considered just a way of living. 222 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:59,560 Or how do you consolidate that or that, especially when you go 223 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:02,200 out to talk to people and try and effect change? 224 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,200 Yeah, certainly. And this isn't about judging 225 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,120 cultures, it's just about recognising suffering, wherever 226 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,360 that may be. And in different countries, 227 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:16,920 suffering will be perceived possible for different animals. 228 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:22,360 You know, in the the UK people love cats and dogs and and the 229 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,040 animals that are considered as pets and part of the family. 230 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,160 And in other cultures, some of those animals would be eaten and 231 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,360 turned into leather. But, you know, the suffering is 232 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,720 the same in the UK. People are still eating animals, 233 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,000 turning animals into leather. It's just different animals. 234 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,480 So it's difficult because there are different perceptions about 235 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,040 which animals are important and which animals are for us to use 236 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,560 or to consume. Of course, Peter considers every 237 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:55,520 single species and every single animal as important as each 238 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,040 other. But culturally, people have very 239 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,320 different ideas about that in in different countries. 240 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,440 And you know, for example, one, one example in Asia, obviously 241 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:11,040 elephant riding is very popular. And as a Western person in Asia, 242 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,400 when I start to speak about why we shouldn't ride elephants, 243 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,960 people will say, OK, but in your culture, people ride horses. 244 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,640 And so, you know, there's this difference in perception of 245 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,600 which animals we can use for certain things and which animals 246 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,880 we can't that varies from country to country. 247 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,360 And, you know, my opinion will always be it doesn't matter what 248 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,320 country we're in, what culture we're in. 249 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,040 And suffering of animals is, is never acceptable. 250 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,080 And tradition and culture and are not excuses for animal 251 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,480 abuse. So yeah, it's, it can be 252 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,880 difficult and you have to approach things differently in 253 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,480 different places. At the end of the day, every 254 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,680 single country is responsible for causing suffering or harm to 255 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:03,040 some species of animals. That is very, you know, 256 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,560 worldwide and widespread. It's just the species that are 257 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,960 suffering can vary from country to country, but the the 258 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,240 suffering and abuse is the same. Yeah. 259 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,560 What about things like speciesism? 260 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,320 Did I say that correctly? Speciesism, I think there are a 261 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,720 lot of people who take the approach of it just is what it 262 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,360 is. It's almost like animals are 263 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,840 just not necessary collateral because humans are more 264 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,920 important, like duh, in marketing campaigns like the 265 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,560 the. The reason I reached out to you 266 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,760 was because I received an e-mail and I was shocked to my core 267 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,840 about something I wasn't aware of in the dog world. 268 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,960 But when it comes to affecting change, how effective are Peter 269 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,960 campaigns? And secondly, what are some of 270 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,480 the ways that you've seen there have been effective in getting 271 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,920 people to change their behaviour or perception of suffering in 272 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,880 the world? Yeah, So I think certainly the 273 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,480 the use of animals has become so normalised in almost every 274 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:05,360 culture that it's, you know, very difficult to undo those 275 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,960 perceptions and those those ideas that people have grown up 276 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,640 with. The use of animals is so 277 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,680 ingrained in in all traditions and cultures. 278 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,240 And, you know, you're talking family meals and things from 279 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,520 your childhood that are nostalgic. 280 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:26,680 And so then trying to undo decades of what people have been 281 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:31,320 taught to be just normal or even the right thing is a huge task. 282 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,880 And obviously it's extremely difficult or we would have 283 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:40,240 changed everyone's mind by now. And so it's, it's, yeah, a huge 284 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:45,520 task that we are faced with to, to completely undo what society 285 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,960 has told everybody for generations and generations. 286 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,440 So it's difficult. And yes, one of the ways that we 287 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:57,600 try to get our message across is, is with just delivering the 288 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,480 truth. And it is shocking, but that's 289 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,800 just simply how it is. The e-mail you're referring to 290 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,160 about the the dog leather industry, most people would be 291 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,480 rightly horrified to find out that dogs are killed for 292 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,079 leather. And Peter Asia did this 293 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,920 investigation in certain regions in China. 294 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,000 And we found that these slaughterhouses are processing 295 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,839 hundreds of dogs a day. They are, you know, bludgeoning 296 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,520 them, cutting their throats, skinning them. 297 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,120 And this is in a country that has almost no regulations, 298 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:32,640 transparency. And these dog skins, the dog 299 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,600 leather are then making their way onto the worldwide market 300 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,280 without the correct labelling. That means that any leather that 301 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,440 you could be buying in any other country could be made from dog 302 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,080 leather. And that should shock people. 303 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,160 But at the same time, the same cruel process is happening to 304 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,120 cows, even pigs and sheep in in some cultures and to people 305 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,600 should also be equally horrified and to learn that other animals 306 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:06,720 are being turned into handbags and belts just completely 307 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,120 unnecessarily dairy and pointless commodities. 308 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:13,600 And the safest way to make sure that you're not contributing to 309 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,320 any of that, whether it's dogs, cows, pigs, is to not buy any 310 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,920 products derived from animal materials. 311 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,440 So yeah, things like that, they do shock people, but they're 312 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,800 not, you know, embellished. It's simply the truth about 313 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,960 what's happening out there. And yeah, everybody's different, 314 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,800 but certainly for a lot of people that works. 315 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,640 They see something that shocks them into realising that they 316 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,160 are contributing for that. And for other people it's the 317 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,600 opposite. You know, they just completely 318 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,600 turn away because they don't want to know or they don't want 319 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,320 to see something that makes them feel so uncomfortable and 320 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:55,400 they'll just scroll past or because, you know, that's where 321 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,360 we're seeing most things now. It is online, it's on our 322 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:01,920 phones, it's on social media. So it's great that this 323 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,520 information now is getting to people, but it's also so easy to 324 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,840 just scroll by and carry on doing what you're doing because 325 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,000 it's it's such a hard reality to face. 326 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,280 And so, yeah, we have different approaches because people react 327 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,720 differently to different materials. 328 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,800 So not everything we share is shocking or gruesome, but some 329 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,440 of it is. And we tried to show the same 330 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,240 thing in in many different ways basically so that it can appeal 331 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,160 to different types of people. And yeah, I think eventually 332 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:42,440 people just see something that does make them think, you know, 333 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,920 I grew up vegetarian and maybe knew more about the kind of 334 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,880 dairy and egg industry, but didn't want to think about it. 335 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,480 And I'm sure I had been faced with the realities many times. 336 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,760 But then there was just one particular video I saw on social 337 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,080 media that wasn't gruesome, wasn't shocking at all. 338 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,120 It was just very thought provoking. 339 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,520 And for me, that was it. I had probably seen 100 things 340 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,120 before, but it it took that one video and that was. 341 00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:17,720 What I needed to really reassess what I was doing and to align my 342 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,560 actions with my values. I love that values are so 343 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,480 important. Is that what you use as a 344 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,080 guiding compass for all the decisions that you make? 345 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,800 Does it feel like a kind of cut and dry way of living or moving 346 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,400 through the world? Yeah, I think absolutely. 347 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,240 I think I've always known what I value and what I consider to be 348 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,800 right and wrong. For many years tried to ignore 349 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,640 that to be able to do what I wanted to do. 350 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:49,240 And soon as I have that kind of light bulb moment and really 351 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,400 looked at how my actions didn't align with what I knew to be 352 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,280 right and wrong, there was really just no turning back. 353 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:02,320 And and now it just feels much better to be living a life that 354 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:08,640 that I actually agree with and that does completely align with 355 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,240 my idea of of what's right and wrong. 356 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,440 That's wonderful. A lot of people don't know what 357 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,880 their values are. It's not like your child. 358 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,680 And then, you know, someone sits you down and says, all right, 359 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,120 we're going to talk about values. 360 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:22,520 What do you value? And here are your options. 361 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,680 Pick five. You know, Yeah. 362 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,800 So as adults, a lot of us just kind of move through the world 363 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,680 oblivious to what we actually care about and how we can align 364 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,200 those things that we care about with our daily actions and 365 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,600 choices that we make. In your opinion, is there any 366 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:45,240 way that humans could continue to use animal products in a 367 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:50,000 humane, more ethical way? No, personally I don't think so. 368 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,320 I think in any industry across the world, as soon as you 369 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,200 introduce profit to a situation, animal welfare is the first 370 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,560 thing to go. Businesses function on profit. 371 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,280 If you're trying to sell a product to people, things have 372 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,040 to be done as cheaply as possible, as quickly as 373 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,440 possible. Animals will always suffer 374 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,040 anytime that they're used, anytime that they are seen as a 375 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,960 commodity, because that's what industries that use animals, 376 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:24,360 they use them as commodities. They're profit driving machines 377 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:28,760 and there's just no way to to use an animal for our own 378 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,000 benefit and still be ethical in doing so. 379 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,760 Yeah. I agree. 380 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,600 I haven't dogs. Let's talk about dogs. 381 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,360 So dog leather. Those are two words that I would 382 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:45,680 never in a million years have put together. 383 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:47,840 That's just the most bizarre thing. 384 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,560 And as soon as you kind of said that, a lot of people wouldn't 385 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,600 realise that some of the leather products that they might be, 386 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,520 that they might own, could be dog. 387 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,640 Yeah, that's horrible. I have leather products and I 388 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,840 honestly, I'm sitting here thinking I wouldn't be able to 389 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,120 tell the difference at all and I shouldn't even be asking the 390 00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:09,600 question. Is it OK? 391 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,600 Oh, it's cow, so that's fine. You know what I mean? 392 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,720 It's such a mind. Yeah. 393 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,040 Yeah. There's just a conundrum trying 394 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,160 to unpick and unravel all of these different things that I 395 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,000 potentially have grown up to think are OK. 396 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,880 And we're originally from South Africa. 397 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:32,040 Meat, animal products are everywhere from our forefathers 398 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,480 and the way that people survived on the land. 399 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,680 Like it is just so innate and so part of being I guess a human to 400 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,200 consume animal products. But then having that cognitive 401 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,240 dissonance, you've got another animal in your home and you 402 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,160 treat them almost like a child. You know, I've got my do now, my 403 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,280 galgo Galgo sleeping on my sofa at the moment with her tie and 404 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,520 fluffy bed and we've just come home from a walk and she's well 405 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,160 fed and she's got an amazing life. 406 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,160 But yeah, it's so bizarre how and yet I can still eat animal 407 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,000 products. So anyways, that's a, that's a, 408 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,280 that's a journey of personal development that I'm personally 409 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,640 going through. Talking about dogs, what are 410 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,200 some of the challenges or campaigns that Peter's currently 411 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,520 working on in addition to the the dog leather raising 412 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:19,720 awareness about that? Yes. 413 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,760 So I think one of the the big ones and this is an issue all 414 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,240 across the world at the moment is overpopulation of dogs. 415 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,800 And as you say, you came to Thailand and, and you saw dogs 416 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:35,000 on the street and you know, you're very much faced with the 417 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,880 overpopulation dog crisis in a lot of parts of Asia. 418 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,520 But that also doesn't mean that it's not happening elsewhere. 419 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,320 The UKI think has over 100,000 dogs in shelters. 420 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,440 So these animals aren't on the streets, they're behind closed 421 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,560 doors, but they're still suffering because they they 422 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,640 shouldn't be spending their lives in cages in shelters. 423 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,160 We've bred those dogs into existence and then just 424 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:05,680 abandoned them. And many of them will spend 425 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,400 their whole lives in shelters because there simply aren't 426 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,240 enough homes for them. And that's because we are 427 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,680 continually breeding dogs. Dogs are treated as breeding 428 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,320 machines in puppy mills around the world. 429 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,720 They are denied comfort and veterinary care. 430 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:26,000 The dogs who are used for breeding spend their whole lives 431 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,920 in these facilities, just churning out litter after 432 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,320 litter. The babies are taken away from 433 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:36,360 them far too soon because everybody wants a cute baby dog. 434 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,920 They are the ones who sell. They're the ones who who make 435 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,000 the best profit. And so, you know, when you adopt 436 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,720 an animal, you're not just saving one dog, you're also 437 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,400 reducing that market for for puppy breeders that treat 438 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,360 animals as as inventory. And in the last couple of years, 439 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,440 Peter Asia has investigated puppy males in South Korea, 440 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,960 Indonesia and Vietnam. And yeah, we found dogs left to 441 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:11,120 endure disease, injury, neglect, and also that also their babies 442 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:15,400 can be sold for profit. Dogs are bred in almost every 443 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,600 country in the world. And even in places like the UK 444 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,760 where regulations will be stricter, that doesn't change 445 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,800 the fact that there are 100,000 dogs without a home. 446 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,920 And if you're in a position to to care for a dog and to welcome 447 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,120 a dog into your family, why would you consider buying one 448 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:40,320 when there are so many who are in desperate need of a home and 449 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:44,360 of love and care? And shelters are so overrun. 450 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:48,440 And, and so there's such a huge number of dogs in need of homes 451 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,520 that there are dogs of every type of breed. 452 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,080 And because people will also say, OK, but I want this type of 453 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,760 dog and I need a dog that's safe around children and I need a 454 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,760 dog. You know, the good news is the 455 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,120 shelters have every single type of dog, every temperament, every 456 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:08,360 size. There's really no excuse to be 457 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,560 paying for more and more dogs to be churned out. 458 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,960 Many of food then are abandoned either onto the streets or or 459 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,840 into shelters. So another big thing is is spay 460 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,920 and neuter. And that's one of the most 461 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,000 compassionate choices that a guardian can make because this 462 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,240 really prevents suffering before it happens. 463 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,600 So laws should be introduced to, to make desexing of, of dogs and 464 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,600 cats compulsory. This would have such a huge 465 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,080 impact on the population of, of homeless animals. 466 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,400 And yeah, I would just really urge people to consider the 467 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,720 lifelong commitment that having a dog is. 468 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,440 It's not just about what's convenient right now and what 469 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,920 you would like right now for you and your current situation. 470 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:03,640 You really have to think, think about the next 10 years, 15 471 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,920 years, maybe 20 years. Having an animal is a huge 472 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,160 commitment. And they're not just temporary 473 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,560 for you to just throw out on the streets or hand into a shelter 474 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,520 when your situation changes or when you're just no longer 475 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,440 interested in having a dog's. Yeah. 476 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,160 And the fact that pet shops exist so readily and easily, 477 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,440 that just really gives people the opportunity to just go out 478 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,440 and buy a dog on a whim. Just something that you've just 479 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,720 suddenly thought about, oh, wouldn't it be really cute to 480 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,240 get a puppy and, you know, 10 minutes later you can literally 481 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,800 go out and get one without really thinking about the time 482 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,440 commitment, the cost. And, you know, anybody that has 483 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,120 a dog will know that veterinary costs can pile up. 484 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,320 These things really need to be considered in advance. 485 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,320 And if you do have the means to take a dog into your home, you 486 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,600 know, the financial means, the space, the time, then yeah, we 487 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,560 would ask everybody to consider adopting one from from a 488 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,480 reputable shelter because there are many just waiting to be 489 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:14,960 loved. Absolutely. 490 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,000 Last week, Tuesday went to the Instead of UK Rescue gathering 491 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,000 at the Houses of Parliament in London, where a lot of people 492 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,880 from rescues or shelters around the country come together and 493 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,080 give a briefing or a snapshot of what the situation is looking 494 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,280 like. It's not not looking good at the 495 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,480 moment at all. There's definitely not a 496 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,160 balancing and very healthy dogs are being killed because there's 497 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,120 no space. It's just really, really dire. 498 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,520 Meanwhile, 80% of the world's dogs are wild dogs. 499 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:50,240 It just seems that like Asia has more wild dogs than here, but 500 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,240 actually owls are just behind cages. 501 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,800 Yeah, exactly. You're confronted with it much 502 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,320 more here because they're living on the streets. 503 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,120 And in other societies like the UK, if an animal is found on the 504 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,200 street, then they're promptly taken to a shelter. 505 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,560 But that doesn't mean that they're going to have a better 506 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,840 life necessarily. They could spend years and years 507 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,840 in a cage at the shelter waiting to be adopted. 508 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,600 And meanwhile people are going out and buying dogs instead. 509 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,240 And yeah, I think if you do adopt from a reputable shelter, 510 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,480 you know that that they would have had their vaccines, they've 511 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,440 been desexed, you'll have information on their behavioural 512 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,680 needs. And when things are done 513 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,440 correctly, you can actually have far more of a better picture of 514 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,640 the dog that you're bringing into your home than just, you 515 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,600 know, buying a little puppy. And that's probably been taken 516 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,800 away from their mum far too early. 517 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,880 And we'll have all sorts of behavioural issues because of 518 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,880 the beginning that they've had add to their life. 519 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,200 So I think, you know, these things are a lot of the time 520 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,320 excuses that people tell themselves because they, you 521 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,200 know, at the end of the day, they want a little baby dog, 522 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,960 that they want this type of dog. So, you know, you hear all these 523 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:14,880 excuses of, oh, I need a dog that's, you know, for allergies 524 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,160 or for being suitable around children. 525 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,000 And again, these are just excuses because whereas every 526 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,520 type of dog just ready to be adopted. 527 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,240 Absolutely. Absolutely. 528 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,040 I have a friend who works in rescue and, you know, she sends 529 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,360 me pictures of some of the kind of dogs that come in. 530 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,000 There are so many puppies, so many puppies. 531 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,280 You know, just this weekend she sent me a video clip of a dog. 532 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,600 It's completely emaciated. An adult dog who was pregnant 533 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,720 and had her puppies in the in the shelter. 534 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,640 Yeah. And it's just all sorts of 535 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,600 breeds, all, all sorts of ages. Like, you can literally go into 536 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,080 any shelter at this moment in time and literally pick from 537 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,480 just about whatever you can find from a breeder's directly. 538 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,680 So it makes no sense that anyone would go out and buy dogs in 539 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,640 this day and age. It really, really doesn't. 540 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,400 It really fuels a very, very dark system that is just 541 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,760 horrendously cruel. What other challenges are dogs 542 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,080 facing? If you look through a dog 543 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,080 centred lens, what else is going on in the world? 544 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,400 Something that would surprise a lot of people is that dogs are 545 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,960 still being used in laboratories around the world for animal 546 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,720 testing, and this is very hidden from public view. 547 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,880 It's not something that anybody is ever confronted with or gets 548 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,360 to witness or experience. But that doesn't make the the 549 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,600 suffering bring any less real. In the UK, thousands of dogs are 550 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:50,760 still bred every year for animal testing and modern non animal 551 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,880 methods are increasingly available. 552 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,800 And we companies, governments, everybody should be doing 553 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,880 everything they can to be completely moving away from any 554 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,320 and all animal testing. And, you know, while these 555 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,280 breeding facilities for the laboratory medical farmer 556 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,320 industries are still existing, you know, money is being spent 557 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:17,160 in continuing this industry when money could be spent in in 558 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,400 looking into new methods which already exist. 559 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,080 Yeah, we should really be completely moving away from the 560 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,000 testing of of any animals. But I think people are surprised 561 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,160 to know that dogs are still used. 562 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,040 I think when people think of animals in laboratory, they're 563 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,640 thinking of rats and advice. And yet these are the animals 564 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,000 that are are more commonly used. And that means that these 565 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,640 species are suffering more, you know, they're using hundreds of 566 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,240 thousands, maybe millions of those animals. 567 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,120 And dogs are used on a smaller scale, but we're still seeing in 568 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,440 reality, it's still huge numbers, thousands of dogs in 569 00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,960 the one. Is too many. 570 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,040 Yeah, 1 is yeah, 1 is too many. And they're beagles at the end 571 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,520 of the day. I mean, it doesn't matter what 572 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,639 breed they are, but like the most docile, yeah, conforming 573 00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:13,960 gentle dogs are just being bred. And completely agree with you 574 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,719 completely. Very awful. 575 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:21,320 Subjected to such invasive tests and, you know, involving toxic 576 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:26,679 chemicals and, you know, they're or smoke inhalation and, you 577 00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,679 know, they're just kept confined in cages and then dragged out 578 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:34,320 for these awful tests and experiments and painful 579 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,080 procedures until they're ultimately killed or or die. 580 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,639 Any of these tests. Yeah, it's, it's tragic. 581 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:47,120 And that animals are still being used in those ways, especially 582 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,040 when other methods now are so widely available. 583 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,040 And you know, a lot of these tests on animals are completely 584 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,960 pointless and they don't don't even give meaningful data 585 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,160 because they are testing on animals and we are humans and a 586 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,840 lot of these things don't cannot be translated from one species 587 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,400 to another. Even in some countries, new 588 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,080 products come out and they have to be tested again, even though 589 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,760 they're still using, you know, the same materials that other 590 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,560 products have been using for decades. 591 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,320 These tests have already been administered. 592 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,720 And yet it's just a hoop that companies have to jump through 593 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:30,560 to be be signed off as as safe when it's just completely 594 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,680 unnecessary now. And government should be looking 595 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,000 at how we can just completely end all all animal testing. 596 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,480 It's just simply not needed. And there are many other methods 597 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,360 available, non animal methods that will actually give accurate 598 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,160 results that can be used for humans. 599 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:52,960 A lot of products now on the back will have the the symbol 600 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,400 the leaping Bunny or they might be Peter approved or Vegan 601 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,960 Society approved in the UK. It's it's very easy to find 602 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,800 which products are have not been tested on animals in Asia. 603 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,600 It can be very difficult because in some countries animal testing 604 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,080 is required. Even for some European or 605 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,240 British brands. If they then sell their product 606 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,560 to China, for example, they will then still have to test their 607 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,840 product on animals. And so then the company is 608 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,440 suddenly not as ethical as it is in one country as it is in 609 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,280 another. So yeah, Peter approved brands 610 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,080 that do not sell to any countries where animal testing 611 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,360 is compulsory. And so only companies that don't 612 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,360 participate in animal testing whatsoever at any point in their 613 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,800 in their line. Wow, I didn't even think about 614 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,360 that. Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a 615 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,640 minefield of you find a company that doesn't test their animals 616 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,680 for the products they sell in in the country you're in, but then 617 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,280 you find out maybe they do elsewhere. 618 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,360 But more and more companies now are ending tests on animals and 619 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,520 consumers are demanding better, They're demanding change. 620 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:15,480 And that makes a huge impact on these industries that rely on 621 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,920 customers and rely on customers buying their products. 622 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:25,760 So as consumers, as tourists, we can really have an impact by 623 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:31,440 choosing what we spend our money on, what companies we choose to 624 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,280 support. And yeah, when people demand 625 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,400 change, people listen, companies listen, governments listen. 626 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,960 We just need enough people to to speak up about things. 627 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,840 But as as consumers, we hold the power and when we stop buying 628 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,560 things that harm animals or visiting places that that rely 629 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,280 on animal suffering, then we can see meaningful change. 630 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,640 I think it was South Korea that started phasing out and dog 631 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,440 farms for meat, for the meat trade. 632 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,640 What is the situation at the moment, as far as you're aware, 633 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,760 in terms of a kind of what's happening in terms of changing 634 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,920 perceptions around eating dogs? Yes, I think perceptions have 635 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,920 definitely changed a lot around dogs in general, which of course 636 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,160 has changed people to reconsider eating them. 637 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,760 And in many countries now, and you know, for example, South 638 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,680 Korea, a country that traditionally dogs in the same 639 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,320 way that other cultures eat cows and pigs and chickens, it was 640 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:38,360 just a normal part of society. But countries like this now have 641 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,080 dogs, as, you know, part of their families. 642 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:45,200 In so many countries now, birth rates are declining, and people 643 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,960 have stopped having children, and they now are having dogs and 644 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,760 cats and, you know, these animals that are being treated 645 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,400 as their babies. And, you know, we're seeing such 646 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,640 a growth in that kind of pet industry in Asia, which of 647 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,800 course, has then LED people to reconsider the animals that 648 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,720 they're eating because it's, you know, culturally, people usually 649 00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:13,080 don't have the animals they eat in the home as part of their 650 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,480 families. So those two concepts definitely 651 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,880 have have led to positive change in in countries like South 652 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,800 Korea. They've recently taken 653 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:28,680 meaningful steps to shut down farms and to enact this this ban 654 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,840 that will come into place where the killing and consumption of 655 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:37,040 dogs for food will be illegal. So that's huge progress. 656 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,760 Of course, dogs killed for me endure unimaginable suffering, 657 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,920 slaughter houses and the farms, they face brutal deaths and 658 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,520 yeah, turned into somebody's meal. 659 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,800 So it's it's great to see that progress happening. 660 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,880 It's great to see people considering dogs as the living 661 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,840 feeling individuals that they are. 662 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,800 I hope that that will continue to to translate to other species 663 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,360 as well. But it's certainly a great step 664 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,600 and the. Right direction it is, yeah. 665 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,080 What other countries typically or historically used to 666 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:17,200 participate in the meat trade in the dog meat trade? 667 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,000 Is it Vietnam? Yes. 668 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,760 So yeah, traditionally Vietnam, Indonesia, China, dogs will 669 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,240 still be killed for meat. So definitely the new 670 00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:32,400 generations in in all countries in Asia have a complete 671 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,960 different perception of dogs. They they now consider dogs to 672 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,400 to be an animal that you would have in your home. 673 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,280 Dog consumption is is definitely decreasing everywhere. 674 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,200 Of course, this may also lead to the increased killing of other 675 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,280 species because people are not going to start eating less, 676 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,720 they're just going to start eating different. 677 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,520 So yeah, we hope that that will be plant based, but of course a 678 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,480 lot of the countries will be swapping one animal for another. 679 00:41:02,720 --> 00:41:06,080 Gosh, how do you remain hopeful? I think, you know, across the 680 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:11,200 world, we can see that people are starting to change their 681 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,160 perceptions of animals, of all animals and what is OK and what 682 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,040 is right. And a lot of things that used to 683 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,800 be considered normal and now being questioned. 684 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,400 You could speak to anyone and they would be against animal 685 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,040 testing. And yet this is something that 686 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,600 that we've done for so many years and was once just such a 687 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,960 normal part of the medical industry or the cosmetics 688 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,560 industry, that pharma industry. And that's a huge change in, in 689 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,720 public perception. And we're seeing that across a 690 00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:45,560 lot of industries. You mentioned dog racing 691 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,080 earlier, which used to be a lot bigger than and it is now. 692 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:54,080 It's again shunned in in a lot of societies and just isn't 693 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,920 something that's popular anymore. 694 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,400 So I think more and more attitudes towards animals 695 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:06,720 evolving, changing and consumers and tourists, they are demanding 696 00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:09,920 better. A decade ago, it was so common 697 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,920 to see, you know, people coming to countries in Asia and then 698 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,640 posting pictures of them riding an elephant. 699 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,560 And you just don't see people doing that anymore. 700 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:24,200 I think, you know, people would now just be shunned for posting 701 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,160 something like that. It's just changed so much of 702 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,320 things that used to be, you know, something that people 703 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,800 wanted to do. People would travel to the other 704 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,760 side of the world to get this photo. 705 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,520 Yeah, An elephant or. Yeah. 706 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,400 And now I think a lot of people would be embarrassed to say they 707 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,880 did that 10 years ago because public perception has changed so 708 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,640 much in so many areas. Things like circuses, you know, 709 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,840 would have been completely normal maybe for in the UK for 710 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,680 my parents generation or grandparents to, to go and see 711 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,800 these wild animals being used in circuses. 712 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:06,000 And, and now that would be completely off in in places like 713 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,240 the UK. So yeah, things are definitely 714 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,000 changing and that gives me hope that things will continue to 715 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,800 change and that other industries will also continue to change. 716 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,800 Fingers and toes crossed. So what are some campaigns that 717 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,120 you know of that Peter have succeeded in? 718 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,560 Yes, we certainly have, you know, victories often in in 719 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:33,880 different campaigns just a few weeks ago, maybe longer or last 720 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,520 month or the month before we celebrated Indonesia putting a 721 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,640 complete ban elephant rides across the entire country, which 722 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,400 is huge. And you know, something that, 723 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,040 you know, maybe we couldn't have imagined happening a few years 724 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,360 ago. So again, that just really shows 725 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,960 that when people demand change, the governments and companies do 726 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,560 listen. And you mentioned camel riding 727 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,920 just now. So in Egypt, we have a campaign 728 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,880 against the use of horses and camels at the pyramids, where 729 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,440 yet they're treated terribly. They are forced to work all day 730 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,760 long in the the unbearable heat. They are whipped and forced to 731 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,800 just continue when they can no longer walk when they're so 732 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,240 exhausted. And yeah, we've managed to 733 00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:26,120 persuade dozens of companies across the world chair to remove 734 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,280 camel and horse rides from their Egyptian pyramids itineraries. 735 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,560 And so we certainly see a lot of changes within companies and 736 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,880 governments when people demand action and when people no longer 737 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,880 want to pay for these activities, that really drives 738 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,680 real change. And so, yeah, we continue to see 739 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,400 victories across all our campaigns. 740 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,160 But yeah, a lot of a lot of campaigns will be something that 741 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,240 we work on for years and years. But every company that pulls 742 00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:01,280 their support of something makes a huge difference. 743 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,800 And has a big knock on effect also for other companies. 744 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,520 So ultimately, what is the kind of tipping point for that change 745 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,040 to happen? So it starts with awareness and 746 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,480 then volume. So getting the masses interested 747 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,440 in advocating for for change and then going to government and 748 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,080 getting government to introduce new laws or regulations and then 749 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,640 change happens. Is that the trajectory? 750 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,600 Yeah. So certainly first we would need 751 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,760 to expose whatever cruelty is happening. 752 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,880 So for example, a couple of years ago, Asia investigated 753 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,520 duck farms in Vietnam where they kill the ducks for their 754 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,520 feathers, which are then used in down products. 755 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,480 So we investigated this cruelty and exposed this cruelty. 756 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:51,480 And then we went to H&M, who were one of the companies that 757 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,240 buy the feathers for their down products from these 758 00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:59,080 slaughterhouses in Vietnam. And we showed them where their 759 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,120 products are coming from, and we showed their customers where 760 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,840 their products are coming from. Customers demand change, and 761 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,040 companies have to listen when they're faced with the truth of 762 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,200 what they're doing. And when their customers are 763 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,960 told the truth of what they're doing, then companies pay 764 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:21,120 attention because again, they run because consumers fund them. 765 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,480 So they need consumers on their side. 766 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,040 And yeah, when enough people speak up, then that's when 767 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,400 change happens. So considering all of the 768 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,440 different campaigns that Peter works are not just dog related, 769 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,840 but a whole host of other issues around the world and all of the 770 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,080 things that you're exposed to perhaps on a daily basis, the 771 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,280 gruesome realities, how do you personally keep your edges soft? 772 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,160 Interesting question. I'm not sure. 773 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,640 I think it's definitely something you get used to more 774 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,000 and more, but certainly it's it's not work for everyone. 775 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,520 But I also don't believe you need to be a Peter Pain to make 776 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,440 a difference. There's different roles suited 777 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,360 to different people. And you don't even have to work 778 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,600 in animal protection to make a difference. 779 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,520 Choosing to support humane practises, refusing to fund 780 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,800 cruelty. Anybody can, can have a, it can 781 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,200 make a difference. And yes, in my job, I'm very 782 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,160 much faced with the, the gruesome realities of, of what's 783 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,920 going on in the world. And, you know, that's just 784 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:30,680 something that I'm driven to do. But anybody can, can make a 785 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,920 difference, big or small in their, in their local area or in 786 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,680 their own home, the the choices they're making, the products 787 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:44,240 they're buying. And yeah, for me personally, I 788 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:51,320 continue to also work hands on with animals myself so that I'm 789 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:56,800 not just faced with these kind of huge global tasks that are, 790 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,280 you know, so mammoth that they, you know, can feel very 791 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,440 overwhelming. But I also rescue rodents 792 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,320 specifically. So each individual animal that I 793 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,600 rescue and save and rehabilitate and rewild is such a huge 794 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:19,160 success that it doesn't have to be huge global change. 795 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,920 It doesn't have to be changing government's minds and corporate 796 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,640 minds. We can all have our own little 797 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,920 differences in the world. Yeah. 798 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,120 I think that's what kind of keeps me not positive is, is 799 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,840 also by doing the the kind of small work that I do in my spare 800 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,600 time and that I can see the kind of measurable difference, the 801 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,040 impact that I'm having on it on a daily basis. 802 00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:47,120 So that keeps you going. What helps regulate your nervous 803 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,160 system? Probably my cat. 804 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,720 Am I allowed to say that I'm a cat person on a dog? 805 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,720 You. Absolutely are you're you're an 806 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:55,400 animal person, so you're welcome. 807 00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:02,080 But yeah, I have a rescue cat who who lives with me and I 808 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,000 think sometimes when I'm faced at work with some very awful 809 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:10,520 things, then just being able to come home to to my own space and 810 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:16,120 my own little rescue, yeah, makes things feel more 811 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:17,800 manageable. That's amazing. 812 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,920 They have the most incredible power to just kind of calm us 813 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,200 down, right? My dog sleeps on my bed with me. 814 00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:26,000 Yeah. Yesterday she jumped on my bed 815 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,000 and she was just moaning and she couldn't get close enough to me. 816 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,000 And I just thought, oh, my God, this is literally has been my 817 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,520 dream for my entire life. And they just, they do, they 818 00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,600 just bring us so much joy. Who could be stressed with a dog 819 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,960 or even a cat around, right? Anyway, I am so grateful for 820 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,080 your time. I've been thank you so much for 821 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,200 joining me today and thank you for everything that you do for 822 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,520 animals and also for. Humans, thank you so much. 823 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:53,640 Thank you. Thanks. 824 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:54,480 Abby, bye, bye.