1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,400
Welcome to Just a Dog podcast. 
I am your host Nadine. 

2
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,120
In this episode, I am joined by 
Doctor Lisa Rhodosta. 

3
00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,640
Lisa is a board certified 
veterinary behaviourist and the 

4
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,760
current President of the 
American College of Veterinary 

5
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,840
Behaviourists. 
She is also a speaker and 

6
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,240
author, consultant and expert 
witness with more than two 

7
00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:26,000
decades of clinical experience 
working with dogs, cats, birds 

8
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,560
and small mammals whose 
behaviour has become 

9
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,280
distressing, dangerous or 
misunderstood. 

10
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,320
Lisa is one of a small number of
specialists worldwide who are 

11
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,600
trained both as veterinarians 
and as behaviourists. 

12
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,680
That means that she looks at 
behaviour through the lens of 

13
00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,880
physical health, emotional 
well-being, learning history and

14
00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,560
environment, rather than 
treating behaviour as a training

15
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,640
problem in isolation. 
She's the former owner of 

16
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,120
Florida Veterinary Behaviour 
Service, has contributed to 

17
00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,240
major veterinary textbooks, 
lectures internationally, and 

18
00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,160
regularly advises other 
veterinarians, organisations and

19
00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,080
courts on complex behaviour 
cases. 

20
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,320
Her work focuses on reducing 
suffering, preventing 

21
00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:13,920
relinquishment, and helping 
people make informed, ethical 

22
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,720
decisions when the stakes are 
especially high. 

23
00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,520
In this episode, I speak with 
Doctor Lisa Radoster about how 

24
00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,160
much of what we label as 
behaviour problems is actually 

25
00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,800
rooted in unseen pain, fear, 
loss, fusion, or human 

26
00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,960
inconsistency. 
Her perspective makes it clear 

27
00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,880
that dogs don't misbehave in a 
vacuum. 

28
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,280
They live inside bodies that 
hurt, nervous systems that 

29
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,960
remember, and environments 
shaped almost entirely by human 

30
00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:45,720
choices. 
And when we begin there, the way

31
00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,040
that we respond to behaviour 
changes completely. 

32
00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,200
This conversation is worth 
listening to because it moves 

33
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,840
beyond fixing behaviour and 
instead asks us what it really 

34
00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,760
means to care for dogs well, 
especially when things are 

35
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,560
difficult and they are not 
simple. 

36
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,800
Hello. 
Hey, I'm Nadine. 

37
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,320
Nice to meet you, Lisa. 
Nice to meet you. 

38
00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,880
Thank you for joining me today. 
It's my pleasure. 

39
00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,240
I watched some of your podcasts,
you know, since you've reached 

40
00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,800
out. 
And yes, I'm interested to talk 

41
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,480
to you. 
I would like to get to know you 

42
00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,400
as an individual, as a as a 
human being and really get a 

43
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,920
feel for who you are and what 
inspired this past this life 

44
00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:29,520
choice of working with dogs and 
cats. 

45
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,280
I think it is. 
So veterinary behaviourists work

46
00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,520
with, we can work with any 
species, but I only see dogs, 

47
00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:41,880
cats, avian and exotics. 
So I don't see horses or cattle 

48
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,400
or goats. 
I feel like to do something 

49
00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:44,720
really well, you have to do it a
lot. 

50
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,400
And I just in the beginning 
wasn't seeing enough cases where

51
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,160
I felt like, wow, I'm going to 
be able to do my best. 

52
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,520
SO dogs, cats and then parrots 
and blow, jeez. 

53
00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,160
And all kinds of cute little 
birds and then pocket pets, we 

54
00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,720
call them over here, like 
ferrets and bunnies. 

55
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,200
And so who am I? 
I'm a mom. 

56
00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,320
I'm a mom. 
My one daughter will be going to

57
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,000
college soon. 
And I'm excited and devastated, 

58
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,440
which is what moms and dads 
feel, I guess, you know, proud 

59
00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,440
and sad at the same time. 
And I knew as a little, I would 

60
00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,680
say I was in second grade, that 
I knew that I wanted to be a 

61
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,320
veterinarian. 
And I also loved training jocks.

62
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,960
There was an English trainer. 
What was her name? 

63
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,240
She used to say walkies all the 
time. 

64
00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,520
This is so it's before you were 
born, I bet you. 

65
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,920
I was going to say, how far back
are we going here? 

66
00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,280
I was six, I'm 56, so 50 years 
ago. 

67
00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,760
And she used to say walkies and 
I had her book and I just was 

68
00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,000
like, God, I just want to be 
like this lady. 

69
00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,400
So I loved training dogs. 
So when I got to vet school, I 

70
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,840
knew that I wasn't set out for 
general practise. 

71
00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,640
It's just not for me. 
I knew I wanted to specialise 

72
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,280
and behavioural medicine fit. 
Like I could see myself doing 

73
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,040
like I wanted to do it. 
I wanted to talk about it. 

74
00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,720
I wanted to talk to my vet 
school friends about it. 

75
00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,160
I wanted to explore it. 
I mean, that's what you want to 

76
00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,680
do for the next 60 years is 
something that you love, right? 

77
00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,480
So that's how I ended up being a
vet behaviourist. 

78
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:13,560
And then I had this giant 
business with four locations and

79
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,680
all these doctors. 
And then in 2024, I was feeling 

80
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,600
pretty burned out after 18 
years, so I took a break. 

81
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,840
It took about a year off, not 
really off, but sort of. 

82
00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,240
And now I came back into the 
clinic, which is my love is to 

83
00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,520
sit with people on their pets 
and talk to them and try to help

84
00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,720
them. 
And yeah, so life is good. 

85
00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:35,560
That's exciting. 
What did you do when you were 

86
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,560
year? 
Off So the IT took me, I tell my

87
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,040
girlfriends because a lot of 
women my age in their 50s are 

88
00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,560
going like, Oh my gosh, I'm 
trying to do it all. 

89
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,880
I'm just reaching my limit. 
It took me 9 months to feel 

90
00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,400
different, like physiologically,
to come down from that constant 

91
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:51,960
hustle of running this big 
business. 

92
00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,920
But I wrote, I started writing a
book, another book that is Pet 

93
00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,400
parent facing, not a textbook. 
And I worked out and I took care

94
00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,520
of my kid and I spent as much 
time with my family as I could. 

95
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,440
And then I started seeing 
telehealth appointments after 

96
00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,960
six months. 
And that was really fun. 

97
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,600
And I was like, oh, I missed 
this so much. 

98
00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:12,320
And then back in the clinic 
after another six months. 

99
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,480
What is telehealth? 
Is that online consultations? 

100
00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,120
Yeah. 
So you just get on Zoom with 

101
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,800
people and it gives people 
anywhere. 

102
00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,080
And the state laws are going to 
govern where you can see the 

103
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,040
patient. 
So I couldn't see a patient who 

104
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,600
lives in another state. 
But within my state, I have the 

105
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,960
ability to help people that live
anywhere, even people that live 

106
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,040
9 hours from me, right? 
So it's a great opportunity, I 

107
00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:35,880
think, to help people in their 
pets. 

108
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,800
Going back to your childhood, 
what are some of your earliest 

109
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,920
experiences of being around dogs
and your understanding of dogs? 

110
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,120
I'm a generation X and a lot of 
Gen Xers. 

111
00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,400
This was kind of the first 
generation where we were left to

112
00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,000
our devices a lot. 
And I think our my group of 

113
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,440
girlfriends too, we didn't have 
the most stable upbringing. 

114
00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,160
And so some days were really bad
at home. 

115
00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,040
And every time that I was in 
that bad moment, there was 

116
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,960
always a dog, always a dog. 
And that carried through my 

117
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,160
whole life from six years old 
where I got my first dog. 

118
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,480
Every time it's been dark, 
there's been a dog and a dog for

119
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,280
me. 
And it's not that I don't love 

120
00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:22,920
my cat because I do and love my 
cat and all my cats I've had and

121
00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,800
my horse that I had. 
It's just that a dog, the space 

122
00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,720
that is empty or that feels cold
or that feels dark and, and I 

123
00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,480
never had the type of dog that 
all these people talk about that

124
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,320
when I'm crying, my dog comes. 
I never had a dog like that. 

125
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,240
It wasn't like that. 
They were just there. 

126
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,680
They were just there if I needed
them. 

127
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,680
And if I wanted to go walk and 
set out on the dock behind our 

128
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,960
house and look out over the Bay,
there was my dog. 

129
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,800
If I wanted to have a snack, 
there she was. 

130
00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:51,560
Even when my house was filled 
with turmoil that I grew up in. 

131
00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,800
So the bond with animals was 
always there, but with dogs, 

132
00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,840
they're like little saviours to 
me, almost emotionally, right? 

133
00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:05,680
And I think that also drove my 
search to find a different way 

134
00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,120
to train dogs because I loved 
training. 

135
00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,040
And at the time when I was 
growing up, the training was 

136
00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,760
pinch, shock, chook. 
That was what we did. 

137
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,600
And it wasn't even considered. 
There was nothing wrong with it 

138
00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,080
as far as everyone was thinking 
it was the norm, right? 

139
00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,800
But in my heart, I couldn't. 
I was conflicted. 

140
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,560
Here's this dog who in my 
opinion saved my life, 

141
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,960
emotionally pulled me out of the
darkest place, and I'm going to 

142
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,760
now hurt her because I knew it 
had to hurt. 

143
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,200
So that that caused the 
metamorphosis of like even way 

144
00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,080
back when I had to search hard 
to find positive reinforcement 

145
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,240
training that was accessible to 
me or I could learn. 

146
00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:50,160
This was well before social 
media and so we had to search 

147
00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,920
and yeah, dogs changed my whole 
life, really. 

148
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,360
Do you know what I find 
incredible about what you just 

149
00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,320
said is that there are so many 
parallels to that where what you

150
00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,040
see is disconnected from what 
you feel within the the dog 

151
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,480
world. 
Maybe more recently, have you 

152
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,120
seen, observed, felt any kind of
things where you felt? 

153
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,120
Well, OK, we still have work to 
do in this area. 

154
00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,360
Well, I think we always have 
work to do in this area. 

155
00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,960
There there is a place for 
different opinions on the 

156
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,560
spectrum as long as we're 
ethical and we're humane and 

157
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,240
we're considering the needs, 
welfare needs of animals. 

158
00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,600
I call myself a pet parent. 
My friend who clearly is a pet 

159
00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,480
parent, ain't no way she's 
anything but that calls herself 

160
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,480
a dog owner. 
There's space for different 

161
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,840
words, but she and I are on the 
same page as far as what what 

162
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,520
place our dogs have in our 
world, how we treat them, how we

163
00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,520
provide medical care, that we 
care for their needs, obviously.

164
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,200
So I think we have to 1st accept
we're not all going to be the 

165
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:53,960
same or look the same or talk 
the same. 

166
00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,800
I'm good with that. 
And I don't think that people 

167
00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,680
who have empathy for animals or 
believe that animals have 

168
00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:03,520
emotions are that believe it's 
not OK to hurt an animal are the

169
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,360
minority. 
I don't think that's true. 

170
00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:09,800
I think that most people who 
love animals, and my God, 

171
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,400
there's got to be billions that 
have animals now across the 

172
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,800
globe, right? 
They believe that their dog 

173
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,480
misses them, that their dog gets
scared of fireworks or whatever,

174
00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:21,880
that their dog has the right to 
take a walk or go outside. 

175
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,440
They believe that if they're 
eating something tasty, they 

176
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,200
should give it to their dog 
because they don't want the dog 

177
00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,080
to be sad. 
They believe all the same things

178
00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,920
as me, but they don't understand
that when they smack their dog 

179
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,000
on their butt that they're 
violating their own moral code. 

180
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,880
That's where the education is. 
We so many of us feel the same. 

181
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,120
We elevate dogs like to level of
children. 

182
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,480
Absolutely. 
And we just need to help people 

183
00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,760
understand. 
You wouldn't smack your child on

184
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,680
the butt. 
You wouldn't push your child 

185
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,600
into a chair at the dining room 
table, but yet you're going to 

186
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,440
push your dog's butt down, 
right. 

187
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,800
So we just have to help them 
understand the parallels. 

188
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,000
And then I think once they 
understand them in a way that, 

189
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,040
which is part of what I try to 
do on social is, is say they 

190
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,640
like, this is what you're doing 
with your kids, this is what 

191
00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,600
you're doing with your dog. 
It's so similar. 

192
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,000
So I think once they understand,
then they're going to understand

193
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,960
that they can't treat their dog 
in a way that they wouldn't 

194
00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:14,560
treat. 
Their child. 

195
00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:17,240
One would think that that 
parallel would lead someone to 

196
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,400
feel a bit like it's a bit more 
relatable, right? 

197
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,840
And easier to understand. 
But then, on the flip side of 

198
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,240
the coin, there's the answer. 
Yes. 

199
00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,680
The word. 
I always struggle to say that 

200
00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:33,160
word, Yeah. 
Which in its own way causes 

201
00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,400
harm. 
Yeah, but doesn't, I don't know.

202
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:40,280
I'm kind of, I'm curious about 
it because I feel like, OK, if I

203
00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,080
think that my dog has the 
intellect of my 18 year old, 

204
00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,280
that isn't fair, OK? 
Because we know scientifically 

205
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,800
the dog doesn't, OK. 
So that's good if I think that 

206
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:55,720
my dog deserves love and respect
and space like my 18 year old. 

207
00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,320
And God help you if you don't 
give an 18 year old space. 

208
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,360
Good luck to you, right? 
If I believe my dog deserves 

209
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,920
that which, which is 
anthropomorphizing, then I'll be

210
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,040
in a good space because I'll 
give my dog space. 

211
00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,320
So I think that it all depends. 
It all depends. 

212
00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,120
What I want to do is take 
science your dog can reason 

213
00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,680
about to the level of a one, 
maybe if it's a border collie, 1

214
00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,480
1/2 year old human being, right?
Like this or ability to 

215
00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:27,760
understand, to reason with that 
kind of big part of their brain.

216
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,000
Prefrontal cortex is about at 
that level we think scientists 

217
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,360
think. 
So if we say that we know they 

218
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,040
can't reason like an 18 year 
old. 

219
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,480
Same with your cat, right? 
But I recently did a post and 

220
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,840
some people got excited about it
and some people got really upset

221
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,240
about it. 
And it was drawing parallels 

222
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,600
between my 18 year old child and
living with an aggressive dog 

223
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,560
because I think it's very 
similar. 

224
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,560
It's very similar when my 
daughter has one of her moments 

225
00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:56,560
where internally something's 
bothering her and I say, can you

226
00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:59,360
clean the cat box? 
And she goes, no, and she goes 

227
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:00,760
in her room and she slams the 
door. 

228
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,680
The worst thing I can do is go 
in that room and fight with her.

229
00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,080
That is what parents want to do 
because they want to say you're 

230
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,600
going to clean their account, 
right? 

231
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,080
Same with an aggressive dog. 
Aggressive dog growls at you. 

232
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,400
The worst thing you can do is 
start an argument. 

233
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,400
It's identical. 
Walk away. 

234
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,760
Let them cool off, right? 
Then my daughter eventually 

235
00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,240
comes out of her room and I say,
can you clean the cat box? 

236
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,320
She's like, yeah, I'll clean, 
right? 

237
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:23,840
My dog eventually comes back to 
me. 

238
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,920
And I say, OK, let's talk about 
giving things back to me now. 

239
00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,480
I'm going to teach you. 
They give the bones back to me 

240
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,920
so you don't go all crazy when I
I walk by you with the bone. 

241
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,520
It's identical in so many ways. 
Some people were like, yes, it 

242
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,040
is. 
And some people were like, 

243
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,560
you're making light of living 
with an aggressive dog. 

244
00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:43,560
So I don't know. 
I guess where I'm going with 

245
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:46,600
this is I think it's really 
similar to how we treat people. 

246
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,760
I do. 
I think it's similar, but that 

247
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,640
is not going to hit on 
everybody's psyche in the same 

248
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,240
way. 
Just going back, he was saying 

249
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,840
about 1 1/2. 
Was it the cognitive abilities 

250
00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,400
of A1? 
1 1/2 year old child. 

251
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,680
Like what I last read was that 
was the best case scenario. 

252
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,040
Like the smartest dog. 
That's amazing to me because 

253
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,960
there are juniors dogs aren't 
there, but so 1 1/2 year old 

254
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,920
child. 
Is that across all ages of the 

255
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,360
dog's life? 
OK, that's a really good That's 

256
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,040
a question that I don't know 
that scientists have the answer 

257
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,000
to. 
So what I will tell you the most

258
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,600
I know about it from reading 
what is published, is that once 

259
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,680
the dog, once the brain reaches 
that maturity level, we're not 

260
00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:31,440
going to gain cognition. 
Like I didn't gain cognition 

261
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,360
between 25 and 55. 
I didn't gain the ability to 

262
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,360
understand things better, except
through learning, of course. 

263
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,360
But I didn't get smarter, is my 
point, right? 

264
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,000
If anything, when you get older,
I'm sad to say you're less less 

265
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,000
able to access the information 
you want, not more able. 

266
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,360
I can relate to that because the
older I'm getting, accessing the

267
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,440
information is getting a bit 
harder, but when I look at how 

268
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,240
much you've accomplished in your
lifetime, it seems like it's 

269
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,400
only getting better for you. 
I hope you're right. 

270
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,320
AD Going back to your journey 
with dogs and how it began, why 

271
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,920
did you choose to to become a 
behaviourist? 

272
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,120
And then also, was there a 
catalyst for you in terms of 

273
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,120
thinking about dogs in a 
different way? 

274
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,240
So I wanted to be a veterinary 
behaviourist because I knew 

275
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,080
specialty practise was for me. 
It was just my thing, and this 

276
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,240
was the most exciting space for 
me to be in. 

277
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,600
And I truly think my whole 
purpose is to help pets and 

278
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,760
their people live less stressful
lives. 

279
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,640
And that was the best way I 
could see to do that right, was 

280
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,280
to change behaviour so people 
and pets stay together instead 

281
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,720
of being separated by euthanasia
or relinquishment or rehoming or

282
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,520
sheltering or whatever the case 
may be. 

283
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,160
Yeah. 
So that's why I chose behaviour.

284
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,160
I would say that my empathy and 
connection with dogs from six 

285
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,240
years old has not changed. 
I just deeply like sometimes I 

286
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,520
look at these dogs in the exam, 
I'm so stressed and I just look 

287
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,480
them in the eye and I'm like, I 
see you, I got you. 

288
00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,440
This is all going to be fine, 
right? 

289
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,200
What I think has evolved over 
the past 25 years of being a 

290
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,760
veterinarian is the connection 
with the people because in the 

291
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,200
beginning, and some 
veterinarians still practise 

292
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,280
this way is veterinarians you're
you're sort of sometimes taught 

293
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,160
US versus them. 
Like you need to get the person 

294
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,600
to do the thing to help the pet,
Not like you need to discover 

295
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,760
why the person can't do the 
thing to help the pet, right? 

296
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,080
So as I've practised, especially
in behaviour, I've gotten to 

297
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:32,080
that point where I now when the 
client says I can't do that, I'm

298
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:37,600
asking why not like why, but 
what is keeping you from taking 

299
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,400
this dog who bites you? 
This is the client I just talked

300
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,360
to today. 
Her dog, you know, we have 

301
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,240
video, I don't know how it is in
the UK, but in the US, we have 

302
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:46,640
video cameras all over our 
houses. 

303
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,440
We watch everything. 
So she has a video camera in her

304
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:51,960
bedroom. 
She sends me those videos. 

305
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,640
That's when the dog is most 
likely to bite her. 

306
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,680
And I keep saying you can't 
sleep with them. 

307
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,360
I'm so worried about you, you 
have to stop this. 

308
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,120
And she said, no, I won't stress
him, I won't move him, I'm not 

309
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,960
going to do that. 
And we could butt heads or I 

310
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,640
could try to discover by being 
curious, why, what is it that is

311
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,720
keeping you? 
What are you worried is going to

312
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,200
happen if we put him in a 
separate room or a separate 

313
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,200
space? 
So, or I can, like we did today,

314
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,400
brainstorm it. 
Let's take an exercise pen. 

315
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,640
Let's stretch it all the way 
around the bed. 

316
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,920
Your dog's going to sleep in the
bed, we're going to put you in a

317
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,040
bed next to the bed, but there's
going to be an exercise pin in 

318
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,280
between. 
Like 20 years ago I would have 

319
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,960
been like, just do it, right? 
What I see evolving is there's a

320
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,600
human being there. 
It's not US against them, it is 

321
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,080
them and us. 
And dogs don't have credit cards

322
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:42,640
and they can't come to see me on
their own. 

323
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,320
They can't drive. 
And if I can't help that Lady or

324
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,680
that man or whoever, then I 
can't help the dog. 

325
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,920
And so that has evolved hugely 
in the past 25 years. 

326
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,640
I think that's a beautiful 
example of how to get through to

327
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,520
dog guardians to get the best 
outcome. 

328
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,680
What, what would you say is the 
cause of the dog showing 

329
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,800
aggression on the bed? 
Because that sounds like a very 

330
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,200
curious case. 
Yeah. 

331
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,520
So there are many of my patients
are aggressive on the bed. 

332
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:09,359
This dog does not fit that 
mould. 

333
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,319
The patients most commonly that 
present with aggression on the 

334
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:14,880
bed are lying on the bed with 
the pet parent. 

335
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:16,800
This is about attachment sort 
of. 

336
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,720
They have to be next to the pet 
parent on top of next and the 

337
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,319
pet parent, because she's human.
She rolls over during the night 

338
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,920
and she nudges them and they're 
so anxious and on edge. 

339
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,240
They jump up and bite or they 
jump up and bark. 

340
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,720
That's typically what I see. 
That is not this dog. 

341
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,960
This dog is a senior dog. 
He's got several other serious 

342
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,960
metabolic diseases. 
He's under treatment by an 

343
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,560
internal medicine specialist, 
and he has sometimes increased 

344
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,600
hunger. 
So we are seeing two different 

345
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,600
bits at night. 
We are seeing if there's a treat

346
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,720
somewhere that got lost in the 
covers in the comforter, right? 

347
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,440
Because a dog can bring his 
treat where in the home that he 

348
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,080
wants. 
And if it's underneath, you 

349
00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,120
know, I sleep with two blankets 
and a sheet, there's plenty of 

350
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:02,240
space for a treat to go 
underneath 1. 

351
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,120
So if that happens, he's living 
his life. 

352
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,920
Then the pet parent gets in the 
bed and he's like, what? 

353
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,640
Oh my God, you're trying to take
my treat. 

354
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,920
So there's one another one that 
we see with this particular 

355
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:14,520
patient is when he doesn't feel 
well. 

356
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,200
And it's very hard to know when 
someone else doesn't feel well. 

357
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,280
You could be nauseous right now.
You could have a migraine. 

358
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,200
There's no way for me to know, 
right? 

359
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:26,360
And it's the same with dogs. 
So with this particular dog, we 

360
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,520
have been very careful about is 
there anything on the bed? 

361
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,520
We've been very careful about 
the medications he gets his 

362
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,680
internal medicine medications 
and his behaviour medications. 

363
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:40,240
And this pet parent is quite 
frankly extraordinary because 

364
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,720
when she has a really bad 
incident, very first thing she's

365
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,680
going to say is I'm not giving 
my dog up. 

366
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,360
And she knows I would never say 
that to her, but she steps up 

367
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,200
first and says, you know, you 
better find a way because he's 

368
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,320
not going anywhere. 
And I appreciate that, right? 

369
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,440
She's being honest with me and 
she's dedicated to this dog. 

370
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,440
And so anyway, that's what we're
dealing with, kind of a mixture 

371
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,480
of items, possessiveness and the
hunger driven by the primary 

372
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,880
disease and also days when he 
doesn't feel well and his fuse 

373
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,160
is a little short. 
Poor boy. 

374
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,400
So that is signs of aggression 
rather than actual biting, 

375
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,560
right? 
Well, so that's a I had a great 

376
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,400
conversation with a friend of 
mine today, was a dog trainer 

377
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,920
about that. 
She doesn't use the word 

378
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,560
aggression. 
So aggression for veterinary 

379
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,200
behaviourist, at least in the 
US, is going to mean fighting, 

380
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,480
barking aggressively, snarling, 
snapping, lunging. 

381
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,080
So we're going to put all that 
under the aggression umbrella, 

382
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,920
right? 
So any of that will qualify. 

383
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,240
Wow, OK so hypothetically 
speaking if the dog had bitten, 

384
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,800
even if it wasn't like a full on
grip, but just like, you know, 

385
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,840
teeth touched skin, is that 
enough of a reason to make a 

386
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,440
life changing decision about 
whether or not the dog should 

387
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,520
stay with you? 
Well, so I everybody practises 

388
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,000
differently and I don't judge 
other veterinary behaviours for 

389
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,680
how they practise. 
I give the. 

390
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,640
The decision to the pet parent, 
and I say that how could I not 

391
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,520
give it to them? 
It's their decision, right? 

392
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:07,800
What I should say is I don't 
take the decision from them. 

393
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,000
So what I talked to pet parents 
about is the risk, the 

394
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,880
likelihood that I can keep them 
safe if they continue to sleep 

395
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,680
with their dog, which is 0. 
It's 0 probability that I can 

396
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,640
keep them safe if they continue.
Even if I make the behaviour 99%

397
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,040
better, there's a 1% chance. 
And when you're sleeping, you 

398
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,840
cannot defend yourself, right? 
And the dog is not thinking 

399
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,160
straight when they do these 
things, so they're irrational. 

400
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,960
You're half asleep. 
You know, I don't tell people 

401
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,800
when they, if you're alluding to
behavioural euthanasia, I don't 

402
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,360
tell people when to do that. 
I tell them this is the 

403
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,680
likelihood I can keep you safe 
if you keep doing what you're 

404
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,280
doing. 
This is the likelihood I can 

405
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,480
keep you safe if we implement 
these changes. 

406
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,480
How cool is that? 
Let's do these cool things and 

407
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,560
then you'll be safe and your dog
will be happier, right? 

408
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,080
And then we talk about rehoming,
which for most of my patients is

409
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,240
not an option. 
There's no place for them to go,

410
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,840
and we talk about euthanasia 
where it's appropriate. 

411
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,160
Sometimes I talk to people about
returning dogs to breeders if 

412
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,400
they have purchased the dog from
a breeder who's a really good 

413
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,400
breeder. 
So we will talk about those 

414
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,440
things. 
But I feel like it's not my 

415
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,320
place to tell someone when it's 
appropriate to euthanize, you 

416
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,880
know? 
But then you've got experience 

417
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,360
on the other side, from what 
I've read that you are a expert 

418
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:26,600
witness as well. 
So I would imagine that you 

419
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,760
would have seen quite extreme 
cases in court. 

420
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,520
How do you you than your private
practise and then the 

421
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,680
experiences that you have, like 
seeing the extreme outcomes of 

422
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:42,400
people maybe not taking 
decisions earlier on or finding 

423
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,600
solutions earlier on, How do you
see that play out? 

424
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,320
The time it gets to court, it 
plays out in a disastrous way. 

425
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,240
The times when an expert witness
is going to be hired is usually 

426
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,480
when a dog has been killed, a 
person has been mauled. 

427
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,360
These are awful cases. 
These are awful, awful cases. 

428
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,720
One case the, you know, we have,
a lot of us have fences that are

429
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,600
made of wood slats, right? 
So two pieces like 2 by fours 

430
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,040
again and again and they're 
hammered onto crossbars that are

431
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,440
made of wood. 
Well, this is not my patient. 

432
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,400
There's a case I served in 
actually 2 cases identical. 

433
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,640
The dogs on one side of the 
fence push the bottom and like a

434
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,160
seesaw or teeter totter, it came
up. 

435
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,240
They got through the fence. 
One dog killed two small 

436
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,160
Yorkies, and in another case, a 
terrier, a little terrier was 

437
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,880
killed. 
It's all on video because we've 

438
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,840
got videos cameras everywhere in
the US. 

439
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,320
And could those have been 
prevented? 

440
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,040
Of course, if people would walk 
their fence line, if they would 

441
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,520
just walk their fence line. 
And in one case, the pet parents

442
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,760
or the owners, whatever you're 
going to call them of the 

443
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,880
offending dog knew. 
And actually, it had someone 

444
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,560
come out to look at mending the 
fence, but they hadn't mended it

445
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,720
yet. 
So instead of keeping their dogs

446
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,520
on leashes in the backyard, they
took a chance. 

447
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,720
And those are the things that 
just you can't go back. 

448
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,560
This dog is gone, right? 
Yeah. 

449
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,560
It's awful. 
What about aggression cases when

450
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,840
you have a dangerous dog that 
needs to be assessed? 

451
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:14,720
The kind of protocols that are 
being followed in the UK are not

452
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,640
always successful in terms of it
being in the best interest of 

453
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,040
the dog, like considering the 
environment and considering kind

454
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,120
of other variables that a good 
checklist doesn't account for. 

455
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,920
Is it very different in the 
States? 

456
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,800
Is it? 
I'm hoping it might be a bit 

457
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,120
more advanced. 
So it depends on what type of 

458
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:37,600
expert witness the court is 
going to hire. 

459
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,040
The attorneys going to hireright
because if they hire a 

460
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,600
veterinary behaviourist, we are 
most likely going to meet the 

461
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,360
dog, watch videos of the dog's 
behaviour in another 

462
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:47,640
environment. 
Because just as my behaviour 

463
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,720
here is different than it will 
be in 10 minutes or 30 minutes 

464
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,240
with my kid and my husband at 
dinner, dogs will behave 

465
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,680
differently in different 
environments. 

466
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,600
They might be more scared when 
they meet me then they would be 

467
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,600
in their own home, for example, 
or vice versa. 

468
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,920
OK, so we're going to watch 
those videos. 

469
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,400
We're going to watch videos of 
incidents, if there is any 

470
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,360
incidents that we need to 
review, and we'll review medical

471
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:09,080
records. 
So all of that will come 

472
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,600
together into an assessment. 
Frequently I'm cross examiner. 

473
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,520
A judge will ask ask me 
questions, and they want to know

474
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,360
the same thing again and again. 
Like, what's the likelihood this

475
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:21,520
dog is going to bite again? 
And I keep saying I don't know 

476
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,800
because if this dog is muzzled 
every time the front door is 

477
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,800
opened, the probability is near 
0. 

478
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,760
It's pretty darn close to 0. 
But if the pet parent doesn't 

479
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,080
put the muzzle on, I don't know.
Because. 

480
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,080
Yeah, because so much of what 
dogs do is at our hand. 

481
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,760
Dogs don't. 
I like, drive cars and buy guns,

482
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,640
and they don't do that right? 
They live in our houses and our 

483
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,760
yards. 
And if the person who cleans my 

484
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,440
pool leaves my fence open and my
dog gets out and my dog's 

485
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,000
aggressive, that's on me. 
I should have a padlock on my 

486
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,960
fence. 
So very often when I testify, 

487
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,400
they ask me those questions. 
I tell them the truth. 

488
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,440
I cannot predict whether any dog
is going to bite again, because 

489
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,280
so much of it is environmental 
and any evaluation that I do is 

490
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,640
artificial. 
It's one point in time. 

491
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,000
And maybe I can't elicit A growl
today, but that doesn't mean 

492
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,840
that a 2 year old child who lies
on top of the dog won't get a 

493
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,840
bite tomorrow. 
Like it's just an absurd 

494
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,960
question. 
If a 2 year old child was lying 

495
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,160
on top of an elderly person, 
they might get a growl as well. 

496
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,880
You know it's all relative. 
Right, right. 

497
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,680
And I think therein lies the 
problem because the court system

498
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,960
does have to figure this out. 
They do have to figure out who 

499
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,080
is at fault and who should 
receive damages, etcetera. 

500
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,280
And is the dog dangerous and 
what should they do to protect 

501
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,840
the public in the US? 
My experience is that they the 

502
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,640
pendulum swing swings very 
often, like far to the area of 

503
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,440
Oh yeah, it's the owners fault 
for sure. 

504
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,320
And that dog is going to be 
euthanized. 

505
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,840
I think the judge ends up in a 
place of like the experts are 

506
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,360
saying, there's no way to 
guarantee it. 

507
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,400
The dog has done this bad thing.
The only way to solve the 

508
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,160
problem is to make the dog that 
did the bad thing go away. 

509
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,240
I think that's kind of where 
some of their mindsets are, and 

510
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,720
I think that's unfortunate, but 
you know, that's our legal 

511
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,200
system, I guess. 
This is the tricky thing, isn't 

512
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,960
it? 
What drives the decisions 

513
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,520
ultimately, It's not necessarily
the well-being of the dog. 

514
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,400
It's always going to be human 
1st and but it's also going to 

515
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,040
be to kind of cover your 
backside just exactly. 

516
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:25,760
But it's possible. 
Yeah. 

517
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,600
It's a shame really. 
So many dogs lose their lives 

518
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,280
because of things like that. 
But also I really appreciate 

519
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,120
your perspective because yes, 
there is a lot of human 

520
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:38,680
management within those those 
outcomes things that could have 

521
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,480
been avoided. 
Yes, yeah. 

522
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,880
And, and I think that very much 
of what we see dogs do that we 

523
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,720
label as misbehaviour or 
undesirable is something we set 

524
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,920
them up to do absolutely. 
Now there's some evidence in 

525
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,640
separation anxiety, which we 
thought that we probably knew 

526
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,760
everything. 
You never know everything, 

527
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,040
right? 
So now what we're understanding 

528
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,200
from some of the research is 
that it looks like these dogs 

529
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,320
who have separation anxiety or 
separation related disorders 

530
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,280
don't have a hyper attachment. 
It's more what you said earlier 

531
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,680
about the attachment style. 
And it looks like at least from 

532
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,200
2 studies that have been 
published that parents, pet 

533
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,640
parents who have an attachment 
style to the dog that causes 

534
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,760
internal conflict in the dog may
be more likely to have dogs with

535
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,560
separation related disorders. 
For example, you're my little 

536
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,080
Maltese and I love you so much 
and I keep you on my lap and I 

537
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,680
put you in my handbag and we go 
to the store together and we're 

538
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,160
just so in love. 
And then when you're in my house

539
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,640
and you have an accident, I 
smack you on the butt, right? 

540
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,600
So do you love me or don't you 
love me? 

541
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,240
Because as the dog, I'm unsure 
because people that love me 

542
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,600
probably don't hit me. 
I'm thinking, that's not love, 

543
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,880
right? 
But yet you just did that. 

544
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,320
But I'm attached to you and I 
love you and I need you and you 

545
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,720
need me. 
But that, that didn't feel good.

546
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,640
Dog jumps on the couch. 
Person pushes dog off instead of

547
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,880
just directing dog off. 
Is the dog in physical pain? 

548
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,720
That's not the point. 
That's not the point. 

549
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,880
The point is that the dog gets 
confused. 

550
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,240
Which one is it, right? 
Nobody wants to be with a 

551
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,360
partner. 
If I had a husband like that, I 

552
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,120
wouldn't be married, right? 
Nobody wants to be with that 

553
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:16,800
partner. 
And that causes this internal 

554
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,960
conflict where the dog doesn't 
have a normal attachment. 

555
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,880
That's why one of the big things
I just want people to do is be 

556
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,840
consistent. 
Just be consistent, because the 

557
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,480
consistency helps. 
Human children, and puppies, by 

558
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,680
the way, feel safe. 
They feel safe, you know, and 

559
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,280
when they feel safe, they don't 
panic. 

560
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,080
Those are incongruent. 
But then what about cases where 

561
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,160
you've got a rescue dog, you 
know, and they come to you with 

562
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,160
an existing? 
My life is extremely restricted 

563
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,800
because I think she's got severe
separation anxiety. 

564
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,920
She cries when I'm not here. 
Even if another person is 

565
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,800
present, she'll go into my bed 
and she'll cry, cry into a 

566
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,080
pillow like a teenager. 
It's very sad. 

567
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,000
But based on what you've just 
shared with me, I would have a 

568
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,720
role to play in that. 
Or is there something else 

569
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,320
involved from her past before 
she came to me? 

570
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:12,760
So now we're getting into middle
age. 

571
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,320
So there's light stages, right? 
We've got the puppies, we're 

572
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,840
setting them up with consistent 
interactions. 

573
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,760
I don't hurt or scare the beings
in my world that I love. 

574
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,640
So I'm not going to hurt or 
scare you, right? 

575
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,560
We're going to have a nice, 
safe, strong attachment. 

576
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,400
Now we've got a middle-aged dog,
The middle-aged dog, not only as

577
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,720
the attachment that in your case
she formed with the original pet

578
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,200
parent or pet parents. 
I don't know how many homes 

579
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,840
she's had, right? 
But we have all the learning, 

580
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,560
right? 
So, for example, some dogs 

581
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,840
learned that in their mind, 
they've made a connection that 

582
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,880
when they are alone, it's more 
likely to be a thunderstorm. 

583
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,280
When they're alone, fireworks 
are more likely. 

584
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,400
Now we know that's not true. 
The fireworks would have 

585
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,200
occurred either way. 
But if the pet parents are out 

586
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,640
on the day of fireworks, then 
the dog goes, oh, yeah, no, when

587
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,400
I'm alone, those fireworks 
happen. 

588
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,560
That's bad news, really bad. 
I'm not going to be alone. 

589
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,280
Then we also have on top of 
that, that your dog in some way 

590
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,480
was abandoned, whether it be to 
a breeder or a rescue. 

591
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,080
She went from a home to a home. 
So now, and it's not like when 

592
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,120
my daughter holds my hands and 
says, mom, it's going to be OK 

593
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,040
when I go to college, you're 
going to be OK. 

594
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,120
Like, you don't have to cry. 
It's not like that. 

595
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,680
No one could hold your dog's 
paws and say, you're going to be

596
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,360
rehomed and I know you're going 
to get a great home and just, 

597
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,080
you can do this. 
I know, right? 

598
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,600
Your dog had a family. 
Then your dog didn't have a 

599
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,400
family. 
So that loss is like PTSD, 

600
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,160
right? 
That's a loss. 

601
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,680
And of course, you come along 
and you're kind and you're 

602
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,200
consistent and you're loving. 
And she says Oh no you can't 

603
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,480
leave because I went through 
this before and the other people

604
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,640
left and it was very bad for me 
and I ended up in the shelter. 

605
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,800
So you can't leave. 
So you didn't do anything wrong.

606
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,280
You have the power to do 
everything right. 

607
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,120
But your dog came to you with 
pre-existing baggage that is 

608
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,360
causing her to say you are safe.
You can't leave me because then 

609
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,080
I'm not safe. 
I'm so sad. 

610
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,320
I know you know. 
Is there a way through that? 

611
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,640
She's 7 now. 
Is there hope for her? 

612
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,960
Or is this kind of fixed where 
she just doesn't trust life? 

613
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,200
Well, so I just had this 
conversation with a client the 

614
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:21,960
other day. 
She has a rescue dog. 

615
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,520
He is, he's probably 3. 
So he's younger than your dog. 

616
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,120
And So what we do with 
separation related disorders is 

617
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,320
we try to figure out do we need 
a medicine or not? 

618
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:31,880
Because if we do, we want to do 
that. 

619
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,200
We try to look at the dog's 
whole well-being. 

620
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,760
Is that dog healthy? 
This particular dog has 

621
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,320
inflammatory bowel disease. 
So we had to work to get that 

622
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,400
under control too, because when 
he would have a flare up, his 

623
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,000
shoes would be really short for 
his mom. 

624
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,200
Departing like that wasn't going
to happen, right? 

625
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,360
Because then he really feels 
unsafe because he doesn't feel 

626
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,760
well. 
OK, so make sure the dog is 

627
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,440
healthy. 
We look to see if there's a 

628
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,080
medication we can use and we use
that primarily so the pet parent

629
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,200
can have a normal life. 
Because this particular family, 

630
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,880
they couldn't leave at all. 
They could never leave this dog.

631
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,720
So one pet parent would have to 
go grocery shopping, the other 

632
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,560
would have to stay home. 
They couldn't go to dinner, they

633
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,080
couldn't go to the movies, they 
couldn't go anywhere. 

634
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,880
So we use medicines in order to 
give them a window. 

635
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,520
We're up to two hours. 
We have a 2 hour window now that

636
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,200
they can leave with medicine. 
So then we start thinking about,

637
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,120
well, what can we do with 
cognitive therapy? 

638
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,040
And so people say, well, how am 
I going to train this out of my 

639
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:25,240
dog? 
And I say, you're not going to 

640
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,080
train it out. 
This is not training. 

641
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,280
Training is like going to get 
your PhD. 

642
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,120
It's like up here in the 
prefrontal cortex. 

643
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,520
That's not what I'm talking 
about, what I tell people, and I

644
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,000
don't know what the equivalent 
would be at the UK, but we have 

645
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,080
two parties here. 
We have Democrats and 

646
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,360
Republicans, and they just fight
all the time. 

647
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,320
So and people are very 
indoctrinated. 

648
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,320
So I tell people treating 
separation anxiety is like, 

649
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,280
you're a Republican and your 
mom's a Democrat and you are 

650
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,080
going to change your mom's mind.
Oh yeah. 

651
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,800
Good luck. 
Good luck. 

652
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,400
Right? 
So it's not that it can't be 

653
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,440
done, but you're going to 
pummelled away at it for a long 

654
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,600
time. 
So for separation related 

655
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,400
disorders, very often we can use
a medicine and something 

656
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,360
distracting or delicious or fun 
for the dog while the pet parent

657
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,240
is gone, especially if the pet 
parents only gone like 2 hours 

658
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:15,880
at a time. 
If it's not like an 8 hour work 

659
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,160
day, we can get away with just 
that. 

660
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,680
And then there's three ways, 
just general umbrella ways, that

661
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,520
you can treat separation related
disorders with cotton ship 

662
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,960
therapy #1 if you have a dog who
likes to eat, which most 

663
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,760
greyhounds aren't like that. 
Does your dog like to eat? 

664
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,720
She is so food obsessed. 
Yeah, but when I leave, if I 

665
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,960
leave, and this could be to take
the rubbish out, it could be to 

666
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,040
go get some milk. 
Whatever I've left for her, 

667
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,880
whether it's a stuffed Kong, it 
could be a raw marrow bone, it 

668
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,920
could be like a high value 
treat. 

669
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,680
She won't touch it while I'm 
away. 

670
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,320
Yeah, this is really common 
because your stress response and

671
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,920
your appetitive response kind of
negate each other. 

672
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,840
Like when I'm stressed and I go 
and eat some Gelato, salted 

673
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,000
caramel Gelato, I feel a little 
better. 

674
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,520
It's probably not the best 
coping tool, but I like it. 

675
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,400
But dogs, when they're stressed,
they'll shut down that eating 

676
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:11,679
drive, right? 
That drive to eat. 

677
00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:15,679
So for your dog, we might use a 
little medicine and we might 

678
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:19,880
also do a preference test 
because there's lots of times 

679
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,560
that dogs won't eat when we're 
gone and we've really given them

680
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,400
some lovely things. 
And if we just do a preference 

681
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,080
test, you like chicken more than
beef? 

682
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,400
Do you like cheddar cheese or 
mozzarella cheese? 

683
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,639
Do you like ricotta cheese? 
What do you like? 

684
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,199
And we find something, the dog 
just flips over that with that 

685
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,440
little bit of medicine, we can 
get the dog to eat while the pet

686
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,880
parents gone. 
There's studies that show that 

687
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,239
chewing helps fearful dogs 
actually even more than dogs who

688
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,000
aren't fearful to calm down. 
There's studies that show that 

689
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,280
if you give a dog a Kong toy, 
that not only will they be 

690
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,239
calmer when separated from the 
pet parent while they're eating 

691
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:56,520
it. 
And I'm saying Kong toy, it 

692
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,560
could be any stuff toy while 
they're eating it, but also for 

693
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,440
15 minutes after it's empty. 
We know this works, so sometimes

694
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,120
we just drive dogs to eat with a
little bit of an appetite 

695
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,160
stimulant or an anti anxiety 
medicine and then make sure they

696
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,440
have food toys to keep them 
occupied. 

697
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,360
So for the cognitive therapy, 
we're going to make sure that 

698
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,640
the departures are always 
predictable because we don't 

699
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,440
want confusion or conflict, 
right? 

700
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,920
We used to tell people, oh, mix 
it up, leave for two minutes, 

701
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,560
pick up your keys, put them 
down. 

702
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,760
That just seems to really 
confuse dogs. 

703
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,160
We just tell people be 
consistent and be low key. 

704
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,240
Be low key about everything. 
You're leaving, you're coming 

705
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:37,120
home, it's not a big deal, 
right? 

706
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,600
Then we can do some structured 
therapy with dog training 

707
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,840
professionals 1 and it might 
work for your dog, maybe would 

708
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,600
be using a remote control treat 
dispensing device. 

709
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,280
So there's so many of them. 
There's the Furbo, there's the 

710
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,880
treat and train. 
And we teach dogs to lie down on

711
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,560
a mat, which most dogs know how 
to do. 

712
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,640
They could lie on a sofa, they 
could lie anywhere. 

713
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,400
It doesn't matter. 
And I don't even care if they 

714
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,800
sit, frankly, They're just going
to be in one general place. 

715
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,040
And we reinforce them from the 
the remote control treat 

716
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,360
dispenser. 
So not you handing a tree for 

717
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,000
being in that spot. 
Then we slowly work up to, we're

718
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,200
not trying to sneak out. 
They can hear you and see you. 

719
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,120
We slowly work up to you being 
gone for longer and longer 

720
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,440
periods of time. 
Way #2 is we teach dogs to relax

721
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,440
on a mat. 
And people usually say to me, my

722
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,680
dog knows place. 
And I say, yay, you're 25% of 

723
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,560
the way there. 
What we have to do is get your 

724
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,880
dog to take a deep breath on the
mat, settle down on the mat, 

725
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,200
feel really safe on the mat, OK.
Then once he does that, we're 

726
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,960
going to slowly expose him to 
your departures. 

727
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,840
Then there's a third general 
way. 

728
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,880
These are general ways. 
There's always tweaks on these 

729
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,080
things, right? 
The third general way is to not 

730
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,800
use any food and to use your 
return as a reward for the dog. 

731
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,280
My experience with this is that 
it takes a very long time. 

732
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,840
It's very, it's quite taxing on 
the pet parent because they 

733
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,840
can't go anywhere. 
They don't have a way to get out

734
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,000
quickly. 
Whereas food, toys kind of get 

735
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,720
you out the door if you can get 
them to work. 

736
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:06,240
And I think it's also can be, it
can feel overwhelming. 

737
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,160
You know, you're making a 22nd 
departure here, a 22nd departure

738
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:11,480
there. 
It's just a lot. 

739
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,840
So there are ways we can treat 
separation related disorders 

740
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,440
with cognitive therapy, but 
we're going to start with cheap,

741
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,920
easy humane food, toys, 
preference tests, a little bit 

742
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,120
of medicine, keeping things low 
key and helping your dog to 

743
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,000
understand she's going to be OK 
without you there. 

744
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,080
It's very doable. 
It's doable. 

745
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,040
I think the likelihood my client
said to me yesterday because her

746
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,600
dog's doing well and she goes, 
OK, now let's aim for no 

747
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,720
medication and I'm going to 
leave spontaneously because 

748
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,520
right now we're using medicine 
and she has a whole routine that

749
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,080
I have her going through. 
So the dog knows exactly what's 

750
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,680
going to happen. 
She was spontaneous departure, 

751
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,280
no medicine, and I told her I 
said very close to 0 probability

752
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,440
we will ever get there. 
This is a rescue dog with trauma

753
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,720
like this is not realistic, but 
it's realistic to think that 

754
00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:04,160
with a little medicine and with 
some cognitive therapy that you 

755
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,200
could have a really normal life 
and be able to leave your house 

756
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,520
and go to dinner and try out the
garbage and all those things. 

757
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,040
So I think we just have to level
up our expectations and there's 

758
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,200
just plenty we can do plenty. 
OK, that gives me hope. 

759
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:18,960
The UK, you have the University 
of Lincoln. 

760
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,920
I don't know how far cuz I don't
I'm so I put all that science 

761
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,520
into my head and geography 
fellow, it's far, so sometimes I

762
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,440
don't even know where. 
So the University of Lincoln has

763
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,080
Doctor Mills, everybody knows 
who he is. 

764
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,000
He's amazing. 
So he is a board certified 

765
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,000
veterinary behaviourist in the 
UK. 

766
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,000
He's got the UK designation and 
like I said, world famous. 

767
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,320
So you that may be really far 
from you and you can't get help 

768
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,600
there, but if you call there, 
they can tell you how you can 

769
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,080
get help near you from a 
veterinary behaviourist because 

770
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,400
I'm sure that most of the vet 
behaviourists in the UK were 

771
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,760
trained under Doctor Mills. 
I mean, he's the guy. 

772
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,160
OK, I will definitely reach out 
to him. 

773
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,680
I think I know this, but just to
be sure, what's the difference 

774
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,040
between a board certified, 
they're veterinary behaviourist,

775
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,280
behaviourist, people that say 
they're behaviourists or a 

776
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,920
clinical behaviourist? 
Yeah. 

777
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,920
So words, terms might be 
different in different 

778
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,320
countries, right. 
So Europe has a designation, UK 

779
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,280
we do. 
There are other countries, I 

780
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,080
think Brazil does. 
So it's just going to depend on 

781
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,040
what you're just where you got 
your designation from. 

782
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,760
But a board certified veterinary
behaviourist is generally going 

783
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,440
to be a veterinarian who did a 
residency and then pass through 

784
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,200
the board certification process,
which is usually a research 

785
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,080
paper, case reports, and a board
exam. 

786
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,480
A behaviourist, at least in the 
US, is anybody. 

787
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,040
Anyone can be a behaviourist. 
It's like a general term that 

788
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,320
implies that you do something 
with your career that has to do 

789
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,400
with behaviour, right? 
Then a clinical behaviourist, we

790
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,560
don't really use that term here,
but it could be equivalent to an

791
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,080
applied animal behaviourist. 
An applied animal behaviourist 

792
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,360
is someone who has a PhD, so we 
call them Certified Applied 

793
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,920
animal behaviour. 
CAAD is what you'll see after 

794
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,720
their name and they have gone to
a higher level academically, 

795
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,880
right? 
They have a PhD and they are 

796
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,200
going to be diagnosing behaviour
problems. 

797
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:15,680
Absolutely. 
So let's say that you did not 

798
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,720
have a. 
Veterinary behaviourist in your 

799
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:20,640
area you didn't have access, you
could go to a certified applied 

800
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,000
animal behaviourist. 
They could diagnose your pet, 

801
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,240
make sure that she actually does
have separation related 

802
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:26,960
disorder. 
They could make a really great 

803
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,400
cognitive treatment plan for 
you. 

804
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,640
They can't recommend or 
prescribe medicines, at least 

805
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,920
here in the US. 
So you might work with your 

806
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,720
primary care veterinarian and 
say, hey, do you feel 

807
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:39,360
comfortable prescribing a 
medicine in addition to this 

808
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,280
plan written out by this 
certified applied in behaviours.

809
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,440
And then what you will also see 
is you'll see just dog training 

810
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,320
organisations giving out 
certificates that have 

811
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,800
behaviourist in them or 
behaviour consultant. 

812
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,080
And there's, it's like an 
alphabet soup of letters after 

813
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,480
people's names, but you can take
those letters and put them into 

814
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,120
your Google search or ask 
ChatGPT or Claude or whoever you

815
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,800
like. 
And it will tell you that 

816
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,640
certification. 
And then you can go online and 

817
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,400
look at it and see like, was 
that a test that a person took? 

818
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,960
Was it coursework? 
Do they have to train a dog in 

819
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,080
front of someone? 
And then you can decide if you 

820
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,440
feel like that someone I want to
work with or not. 

821
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,040
So, so it let's, let's imagine I
didn't know you existed and I 

822
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,320
never looked at your social 
media and a specific post. 

823
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,440
And I went and looked for a 
behaviourist or I found a 

824
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,960
trainer and I said this is my 
problem. 

825
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,160
A dog's got anxiety, I think. 
And they recommended I use 

826
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:38,440
certain types of vitamins or 
change my dog's food. 

827
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,440
Or maybe they even said, you 
know what, try this medication. 

828
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,080
Why is that a bad idea? 
Because they're outside their 

829
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,000
lane, they don't have the 
knowledge to recommend that 

830
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,320
product and it's not safe. 
That's the biggest thing when we

831
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:57,080
start to take control over the 
treatment of someone's animal. 

832
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,360
And if you're a dog trainer, you
are treating the animal. 

833
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,120
You can say it any way you want.
You are changing that animal's 

834
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,280
behaviour, you are treating a 
family member. 

835
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,440
Number one priority is to not 
hurt the animal and that 

836
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,880
includes supplements, foods, 
etcetera. 

837
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,520
I want the people working on my 
dog and cat to be experts. 

838
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,040
I don't want my surgeon to steer
out of her lane. 

839
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,920
I don't want her to do something
she's not skilled enough to do 

840
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,320
because she's going to hurt my 
pet, right? 

841
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,240
And that is the same for a dog 
trainer who recommends food. 

842
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:29,720
And there are nutrition 
certificates that any of us can 

843
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:32,120
get. 
That is not the same as a board 

844
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,000
certified specialist. 
A certificate is a course, a 

845
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,320
specialty is 3 to five years. 
It's the board exam. 

846
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,040
It's all the things, right? 
So that's my concern. 

847
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,360
And I'm an expert in my field, 
but I'm the first one. 

848
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,480
My mother calls me and says, 
Lisa, like what flea and tick 

849
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,560
control should I give my dog? 
I'm like, mom, I'm a 

850
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,200
psychiatrist. 
Like, how would I know that? 

851
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,680
Like, I don't know. 
It's outside of my lane. 

852
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,720
I think I really respect people 
that say, you know what? 

853
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:02,120
I don't know about that, but 
here's the name of someone who 

854
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,920
knows. 
Here's the book where you can 

855
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,480
find that thing. 
I don't want someone taking a 

856
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,040
risk on me or on my pets. 
What about just, hypothetically 

857
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,400
speaking, someone who might be 
like, oh, it's just a 

858
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,160
supplement, Oh, it's just a 
vitamin, it's harmless. 

859
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,840
Here's the part of the problem. 
So I talked to you about my 

860
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,720
patient who has separation 
related disorder and has IBD. 

861
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,680
So a lot of the supplements we 
give dogs, all but one that I 

862
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,920
can think of in the US, maybe 
more, but all but one are 

863
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,080
flavoured. 
This dog is on a hydrolyzed 

864
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,680
diet. 
Every bit of anything is going 

865
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,280
to cause a relapse in his 
diarrhoea which is caused to 

866
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,360
cause him to go to the internist
or worse, end up in the ER. 

867
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,800
So something as simple as 
flavouring. 

868
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,960
If you as the dog trainer don't 
understand he's on a hydrolyzed 

869
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,920
diet and you recommend that he 
go on a flavoured supplement, it

870
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,320
literally could be pancreatitis,
GI distress, ER, stay. 

871
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,560
Another thing is I don't think, 
at least in the US, natural. 

872
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:00,880
When something's natural, it is 
thought to be totally safe. 

873
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,520
Eat a box of it for God's sake. 
Just do what you want. 

874
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,000
That's not the truth though 
because especially these 

875
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,280
implements that modulate brain 
chemistry can interact with 

876
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,720
other drugs. 
There's only a handful of 

877
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,200
neurotransmitters that we care 
about in behaviour and if you're

878
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,120
giving a supplement that alters 
your dogs behaviour is probably 

879
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,600
affecting serotonin, 
norepinephrine, dopamine. 

880
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,720
Maybe it's in an indirect way 
like CBD effects cannabinoids, 

881
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,360
but it also effects other 
neurotransmitters. 

882
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,280
So maybe it's indirect but it 
still effects them. 

883
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,720
And also, Dang it, the 
supplement and industry is not 

884
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:41,880
well regulated in the US, We do 
have some supplements that are 

885
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,480
made by pharmaceutical 
companies. 

886
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,200
And it's not that I think that 
we should all buy things, you 

887
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:47,840
know, from pharmaceutical 
companies. 

888
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,600
It's that if I'm going to put it
in my dog's mouth, somebody's 

889
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,600
going to be responsible. 
Somebody needs to have told me 

890
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:56,800
that there's a study that shows 
it's safe for my dog or is not 

891
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,960
going in his mouth, period, 
right. 

892
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,280
But these supplements, no one's 
testing them. 

893
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,040
No one's giving them to dogs and
seeing if it causes heart 

894
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,240
disease or kidney failure. 
And actually some of the 

895
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:11,000
studies, when you look at human 
supplements, if you just go to 

896
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,560
Google Scholar and you search, I
don't know, natural products or 

897
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,360
supplements, ingredients 
analysis, something like that, 

898
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,720
you will see reams of studies 
showing that very often, like 

899
00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:26,760
5075% of the time in these 
studies, what is on the label is

900
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,880
not in the bottle or what's in 
the bottle is not in the label. 

901
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:31,520
Like, this is really 
frightening. 

902
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,400
So supplements are natural. 
I love supplements. 

903
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,400
I take a bunch of supplements. 
I'm an old lady. 

904
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,600
I take a bunch of supplements, 
but I always take supplements 

905
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,480
backed by research. 
I know the company and I want to

906
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,160
be careful about giving things 
to my pets that might not be 

907
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,240
safe. 
And anyone can sell anything on 

908
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:48,560
Amazon. 
Risk you? 

909
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,600
Think yes, yes. 
And on eBay, that's another one.

910
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,600
Yeah, that's true. 
Very quickly going back to the 

911
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,080
anti anxiety medication you were
talking about before, what 

912
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,440
happens in those two hours or 
what effect does that have on 

913
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,360
the dog? 
Because I was just thinking 

914
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,320
somebody has given me some 
Valyrian roots and I think like 

915
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,520
she was tripping. 
I think my dog was completely 

916
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,560
tripping, like her eyes were 
just low and I was just 

917
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,000
thinking, I don't know if that's
pleasant. 

918
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,560
Yeah, yeah. 
I used to take Valerian route to

919
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,400
help me sleep. 
I used to call it the dirt pills

920
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,200
because it was giant capsules, 
tasted like dirt, but OK. 

921
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,880
So this is a really good point. 
And this is right in line with 

922
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,200
what we just talked about, which
was that these supplements that 

923
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:36,280
alter mood alter the dog's 
neurochemistry. 

924
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,320
And just like medicines that 
alter neurochemistry, Xanax and 

925
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,440
Valium and Prozac and Zoloft, 
like all these medicines, some 

926
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,680
dogs are going to take those 
medicines and feel really sick, 

927
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,720
like or feel really weird, 
right? 

928
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,280
And sometimes that, that weird 
feeling can cause confusion. 

929
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,680
And in one of my patients, it 
causes aggression because he's 

930
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,520
like, I don't as he's, my 
perception is like, he's, he's 

931
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,640
like, I don't understand like 
why I feel this way. 

932
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,640
So, So what they're doing in the
brain, it depends on the drug we

933
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,360
choose. 
Like sometimes we choose 

934
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,160
gabapentin, sometimes we choose 
Xanax. 

935
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,080
Those drugs affect GABA 
primarily. 

936
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:13,960
And that is a quieting on the 
brain. 

937
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:18,240
It is the neurotransmitter that 
is kind of ubiquitous in your, 

938
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:22,000
in your brain and your dog's 
brain that slows down the 

939
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,320
neurotransmissions. 
If we use something that is like

940
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,800
Trazodone, that's a common 
sedative in dogs. 

941
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,680
It's an antidepressant 
technically, but it's, it helps 

942
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,520
dogs sleep. 
In that case we are quickly 

943
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,600
increasing serotonin and that 
causes a blunting effect that is

944
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:42,560
like a blanket kind of blunting 
effect on the dog even in the 

945
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,920
way of how much energy the dog 
has. 

946
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,720
So there's also, we sometimes 
use sedatives, we use 

947
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:53,440
pregabalin, which is Lyrica, at 
least that's the brand name over

948
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,520
here in the US. 
So I think the take home for 

949
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,800
people is every supplement and 
every medicine is going to have 

950
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,760
to be personalised for your dog.
Might be a different dose, it 

951
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,600
might be a different medicine, 
It might mean that you give it 2

952
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,720
hours before you leave instead 
of one hour. 

953
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,320
What I can tell people hard and 
fast rules. 

954
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,000
Never give a medicine for the 
first time and walk out the door

955
00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:15,840
always. 
Or a supplement. 

956
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,960
Give whatever it is and plan to 
hang out with your dog so that 

957
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,280
you can see exactly what you 
saw. 

958
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,560
Oh my dog was weird on this. 
Like this is not right for my 

959
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:26,880
dog. 
Might be right for your 

960
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,520
neighbours dog just isn't right 
for for you. 

961
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:31,760
Right. 
So that would be the thing I 

962
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,840
would want people to remember is
to always test the dose and be 

963
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,280
prepared to change things up. 
Just wondering where would one 

964
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,520
go for a diagnosis or like to be
prescribed? 

965
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,160
Firstly, I'm a bit hesitant when
it comes to medication. 

966
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,440
I'm not entirely sure whether 
it's as common here in the UK. 

967
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,240
It feels like it's trending up 
now, I'm starting to hear it a 

968
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:55,200
bit more, but I'm just wondering
because when when I've been to 

969
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,600
the vet, your time with the vet 
is so limited and I think for 

970
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,720
the vet to diagnose whose 
behavioural challenges will be a

971
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:06,000
fairly wild guess I would 
imagine in such a short space of

972
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:06,800
time. 
So. 

973
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,680
I'm with you. 
Would you recommend we go to a 

974
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,440
Someone Like You, a 
veterinarian, Behaviourists 

975
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:20,360
specifically for things like 
behaviour, psychological related

976
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:21,960
issues. 
I guess you wouldn't know if 

977
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,720
you're a layman like me. 
Like it could, it could also be 

978
00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:26,680
pain, it could be physical pain,
couldn't it? 

979
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,240
Yeah, so a couple of things. 
On my YouTube channel, which is 

980
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:33,480
my name at Doctor Lisa Radosta, 
I did a whole thing on 

981
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,800
separation anxiety that will 
kind of run people through like,

982
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,560
look, here's the behaviour 
modification, here's what you 

983
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,600
do, here's what you don't do, 
here's the drugs. 

984
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,240
So you'll just educate yourself 
and that's at no cost. 

985
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,720
I would absolutely reach out to 
the University of Lincoln. 

986
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:50,320
I would find someone near me 
who's a veterinary behaviourist 

987
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:51,800
and here's why. 
I think you should start with a 

988
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,640
vet behaviourist because we are 
going to loop in a dog trainer, 

989
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,200
we most certainly are, or an 
applied animal behaviourist. 

990
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,200
But if you start with the 
veterinary behaviours, you're 

991
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,760
going to get the evaluation for 
pain, you're going to get the 

992
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,760
evaluation for discomfort. 
So the reason that's so 

993
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,080
important because people say to 
me, I just had a client say Mike

994
00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:09,720
Bird goes to the vet all the 
time. 

995
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:12,480
I'm sure she's fine. 
And I'm thinking, how am I going

996
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,440
to explain to you she's probably
not fine without insulting your 

997
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,240
relationship with your 
veterinarian, right? 

998
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,240
Veterinarians, like you said, 
have very little time here. 

999
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:23,720
They might have 15 minutes. 
So they are trying to get the 

1000
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:26,160
history on the problem that 
you're coming in for just today.

1001
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,440
They're trying to do all the 
things, get with the technician,

1002
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,360
go to the next room. 
There just isn't a way for them 

1003
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,840
to observe how your pet sits, 
how your pet stands up, that 

1004
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:39,560
your pet is shifting weight off 
of their right front leg onto 

1005
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,000
their left front leg. 
How do you know? 

1006
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,520
Because their paw will be 
splayed a little more on this 

1007
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,960
side than on this side, because 
their nails will be worn down on

1008
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,080
this side but not on this side. 
They don't have time to do that.

1009
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,520
It's awful because I think every
vet wants to do that, but the 

1010
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,680
society we've created that 
that's working doesn't permit 

1011
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:57,680
them to do that. 
Right. 

1012
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,720
So, so going to a veterinary 
behaviours, we get an hour with 

1013
00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:06,360
you and we watch everything and 
we ask you for videos and we run

1014
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,960
every test we think is 
reasonable to run that is 

1015
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,880
recommended. 
We are going to hunt down pain. 

1016
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:17,480
And by the way, groundbreaking 
study that showed on average 50%

1017
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,600
of the dogs that come to see 
veterinary behaviours like me, 

1018
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:25,640
so not GPS are behaviourists at 
groundbreaking study came from 

1019
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,080
University of Lincoln Dr Mills 
right by you. 

1020
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,200
So 50% of the animals that come 
to see veterinary behaviourists 

1021
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,800
that already have a General 
practitioner are sick or 

1022
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,240
painful. 
That's a huge number. 

1023
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,000
They have general practitioners 
who are seeing them regularly. 

1024
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,880
IBD. 
I see so much inflammatory bowel

1025
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:50,600
disease, so much arthritis. 
I saw a dog the other day. 

1026
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,960
Now I'm just going on my 
passionate black hole. 

1027
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,840
But I saw a dog. 
I saw a dog the other day, so 

1028
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,440
cute, this big black mixed breed
dog. 

1029
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,840
He's just so cute. 
Like there he is and he's coming

1030
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,960
in for aggression. 
He's a rescue dog, he's being 

1031
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,440
Foster and he's aggressive 
toward the male pet parent. 

1032
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,200
The male pet parent had like 
reached just to pet him. 

1033
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,800
He was lying down just like 
reached and he crawled in lunch,

1034
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,920
no bites. 
And so I come in because the 

1035
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,200
technician brought mom and the 
dog in and I come in and mom's 

1036
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,680
standing up. 
You can always tell they've got 

1037
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,320
something on their mind because 
the technician is sitting down. 

1038
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,600
I'm going to sit down. 
They're standing up, they've got

1039
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,480
to tell you, right? 
So she standing up and she goes 

1040
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,800
doctor Adasta, I think this dogs
painful. 

1041
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,560
This lady found me through her 
vet. 

1042
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,120
She has a vet. 
The dog went to the vet and I 

1043
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,720
looked at him and I looked at 
her and I said I'm 100% sure 

1044
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,040
he's painful. 
I was in there 60 seconds. 

1045
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,480
I said, first of all, his, you 
know, his muscles are wasted all

1046
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,200
around his butt. 
Dog butts are like, well, you've

1047
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,440
got a greyhound. 
You know what a good dog butt 

1048
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,840
looks like? 
It is muscular, right? 

1049
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,400
They're supposed to be round. 
This dog was not round. 

1050
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,480
There's the hip and then it was 
sloped down. 

1051
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,120
All that muscle was wasted away.
So we knew that there was a 

1052
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,960
reason why he wasn't able to 
have those big muscles, and it 

1053
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,720
probably was because he couldn't
use his hips properly because he

1054
00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:14,640
had arthritis. 
I watched him sit down and then 

1055
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,840
go into a lying down as he lied,
as he went to lie down, he put 

1056
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,760
his feet like this. 
And I said to her, I said dogs 

1057
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,480
plop down. 
They go like this. 

1058
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,280
They don't go God, let me get 
it. 

1059
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,760
I'm like, I think his shoulders 
hurt too. 

1060
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,880
So we did the whole appointment.
Turns out arthritis in the hips,

1061
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,840
arthritis in the shoulders. 
I put him on 2 pain medicines. 

1062
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,240
I just saw her the other day. 
She's like, I can't believe 

1063
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:38,160
this. 
This dog is entirely different. 

1064
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,560
Like that dog was a rescue dog. 
He would have been put down. 

1065
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,680
There was no option. 
He had nowhere to go. 

1066
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,480
I just can't emphasise enough. 
You got to dig deep and find 

1067
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,640
everything because dogs cannot 
speak for themselves. 

1068
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:52,600
Absolutely. 
But The thing is, you can only 

1069
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,960
speak for myself. 
I'm very interested in dogs, so 

1070
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:00,080
I'm driven by curiosity. 
But even even with the little 

1071
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,440
bit of experience that I have 
now, I'm so limited in my 

1072
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,160
vocabulary. 
I'm so limited with regards to 

1073
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,280
what it is I'm actually looking 
for. 

1074
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,080
The immediate thing is go to 
your vet, you know, if you want 

1075
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:16,280
to qualify to. 
So all certified behaviourist up

1076
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:21,360
until doing the podcast wouldn't
have been part of my selection. 

1077
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,600
And you were just saying about 
the muscle. 

1078
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:26,680
And I know that her, her 
backside muscles are flat. 

1079
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:28,040
Oh my gosh. 
Yeah. 

1080
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,080
So I am like literally as you 
were saying that I was like 

1081
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,920
getting goosebumps because I'm 
like, I need to sort this 

1082
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,600
because she might be in a lot of
pain. 

1083
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,720
Yeah, greyhounds have good 
booties. 

1084
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,320
They are brown. 
She's fairly flat, she actually 

1085
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,680
looks a bit lame. 
But I'm definitely going to make

1086
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,120
an appointment. 
I'm going to have her seen to 

1087
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,040
because now I know where to go. 
It's not my vet, you know. 

1088
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,160
I'm so grateful that I was able 
to speak with you and thank you 

1089
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,120
so much for sharing everything 
that you did. 

1090
00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:56,960
Do you have time for quick fire 
questions? 

1091
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:01,000
First thing that comes to mind, 
just blurted out, what book, 

1092
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,800
book or movie that's dog 
related? 

1093
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,200
Do you recommend people either 
watch or read? 

1094
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,520
OK, we're going to exclude all 
my books, which you absolutely 

1095
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,760
should read. 
I would say they should pick up 

1096
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,680
Who's a Good Dog. 
Who's a Good Dog is written by a

1097
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:16,800
bioethicist, and I recently did 
a post on Instagram and Facebook

1098
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,240
about this book. 
It is is an eye opener, right? 

1099
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:23,280
It's not a dog training book, 
but it makes you ask a lot of 

1100
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,680
questions you would never think 
of asking about being a pet 

1101
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:27,760
parent. 
Yeah, so that's by Jessica 

1102
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,160
Pierce, right? 
Yeah. 

1103
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,040
Yeah, I've actually interviewed 
Jessica. 

1104
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,960
Yes. 
Is it Doctor Jessica Pierce? 

1105
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,240
Yes, I'm Doctor Mark Beckhoff. 
I just think they are amazing 

1106
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:39,880
people, amazing human. 
So yeah, I very much put you in 

1107
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,480
that bracket. 
Thank you, she's amazing. 

1108
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:44,280
Yeah, she's really, really 
lovely. 

1109
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,640
Yeah, I haven't read that book, 
so I'm definitely going to read 

1110
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,680
that one. 
What is something dogs do better

1111
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,840
than humans without effort or 
training? 

1112
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:52,880
Love without any judgement. 
Love without. 

1113
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,720
That's true, isn't it? 
What do you notice first about a

1114
00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:59,240
dog when you meet them? 
I would say their eyes. 

1115
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,880
What brings you the most joy 
when you are with dogs? 

1116
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,440
I think they've so my dogs 
passed away. 

1117
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,880
We haven't gotten a new dog yet.
I would say that the most quiet 

1118
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:12,400
joy is having him there. 
But he doesn't even have to 

1119
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,320
touch me. 
I would be out by the fire pit 

1120
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,880
and even now I look over, he's 
not there, but he would always 

1121
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,960
be just there. 
And it sounds very plain and but

1122
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,320
really it's a, it's a safety 
net. 

1123
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,480
You always have someone who 
loves you. 

1124
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,480
It's hard for me to talk about 
him, but you always have someone

1125
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,080
who loves you and they're just. 
If I was watching TV, his bed 

1126
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,000
was there. 
He was just there. 

1127
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:37,520
If I woke up at night, he was 
snoring. 

1128
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:42,040
Just the comfort of knowing that
he was near really brought me 

1129
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,400
incredible joy. 
I'm so sorry for your loss. 

1130
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,520
That's really thank you. 
How long ago was it? 

1131
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:51,520
Was so long ago was March 2024 
and my husband is like really 

1132
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,920
campaigning for a dog hard. 
We are going to get one. 

1133
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:59,080
It's just like when you have 
perfection, it's hard to imagine

1134
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:03,720
that that anyone could come in 
after he was just, you know, but

1135
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:05,840
but we are going to get another 
dog eventually. 

1136
00:57:06,240 --> 00:57:07,960
We are. 
OK, what was his name? 

1137
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:09,880
Maverick. 
Maverick. 

1138
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:27,800
What a name. 
Gives you. 

1139
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:42,360
Hope about the future of to 
species living. 

1140
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:47,240
What gives me hope is I happen 
to be Privy to a recent 

1141
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,800
marketing study. 
And in that study, they 

1142
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,040
interviewed millennials, Gen Z's
and Gen X. 

1143
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:58,000
So I'm an X asking them 
questions like, would you give 

1144
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,360
up your vacation to pay to take 
that money to pay for surgery 

1145
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,280
for your dog? 
You know, would you do this to 

1146
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:04,800
improve your dog's quality of 
life? 

1147
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,320
And what I'm, what I saw in that
survey from X to millennial to 

1148
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:13,360
Z, is that the younger kids, 
it's not just about money, are 

1149
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,440
so closely bonded to these dogs 
and cats that these are really 

1150
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,080
family members. 
And I can see it in my daughter 

1151
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,000
now. 
I'm an Ovo pescatarian, so eggs,

1152
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,760
seafood, some types of seafood. 
My daughter, she was probably 

1153
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,480
the same age as me when I went 
vegetarian, 15, maybe 14. 

1154
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:32,960
She, it's like, I can't do this 
anymore. 

1155
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,280
Now she's trying very hard to be
vegan. 

1156
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:36,840
We're trying to support her in 
that. 

1157
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,760
But that is a decision that when
I made it when I was 15, my mom 

1158
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,480
was like, you're crazy. 
You're going to die because 

1159
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,560
people need to eat meat or they 
die. 

1160
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,040
Like, this is bad. 
But now so many of her friends 

1161
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,520
were in the same space. 
This is normal to have empathy 

1162
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,080
for animals. 
It's not abnormal anymore. 

1163
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:59,480
It's very much like mainstream. 
And that means that the wave is 

1164
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,040
only going to get bigger. 
We can't go back now. 

1165
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:03,480
You can't put the genie back in 
the bottle. 

1166
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,600
They're going to raise kids who 
are going to be empathetic 

1167
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:08,440
towards animals, because they 
are. 

1168
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:10,880
And that's exciting. 
That is very exciting. 

1169
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,040
Before you go, you said you were
writing a book last year. 

1170
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,440
Is that out already? 
When can we expect it and what 

1171
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,920
else is in the pipeline for you?
It's not out yet. 

1172
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,360
I think we probably can expect 
it at the end of the year. 

1173
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:28,960
And it is a book that is written
for any pet parent, but really 

1174
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,920
in the voice of a woman. 
And it's explains how our 

1175
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,120
connection to animals can help 
us heal ourselves. 

1176
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,040
That's really what it is. 
So, and what's in the pipeline 

1177
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,440
for me is same old, same old, 
seeing patients, lecturing, 

1178
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,640
writing books, talking to you, 
that kind of thing, raising my 

1179
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,760
child. 
Well, that's a busy schedule 

1180
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,320
you've got there. 
You've been amazing. 

1181
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:48,880
Thank you so much for your time,
Lisa. 

1182
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,920
And yeah, I hope you have a 
lovely rest of your evening over

1183
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,320
there in Florida. 
Thank you, you have a great 

1184
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:55,680
evening too. 
Thank you.