1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,240 Welcome to Just a Dog Podcast. I'm your host, Nadine. 2 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,000 Most of what we know about dogs, we were taught how to train 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:19,080 them, manage them, live with them, and almost all of it was 4 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:21,440 built around what works for humans. 5 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:26,040 So what would change if we flipped that on its head? 6 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:29,880 If we descented the human and we put the dog first as an 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,840 individual? Not the training, not the rules, 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,200 not the relationships on our terms, our dogs exactly as they 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,680 are and what they need. Today's guest has spent decades 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,800 exploring just that. Doctor Jessica Pierce is a world 11 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,760 renowned bioethicist and author of 13 books, including Who's a 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,160 Good Dog, Unleashing Your Dog, and most recently Dogpedia, A 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,960 brief compendium of canine curiosities. 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,640 Her essays have appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,840 Guardian, Scientific American, and she also writes the 16 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,200 Psychology Today blog All Dogs Go to Heaven. 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,840 Her work covers moral philosophy, animal ethics, and 18 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,760 our relationship with dogs. In this conversation, we get 19 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,360 into where we're still getting it wrong as humans, and some of 20 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,600 it will genuinely surprise you. We talk about what burned 21 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,480 Jessica out, what pulled her back in again, and the 22 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,000 unexpected thing that she did when loving dogs became too 23 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,280 painful. She also opens up about her 14 24 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,080 1/2 year old dog, Bella, and the decision that every dog guardian 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,600 will eventually face, but very few talk about openly. 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:46,080 Let's begin. Jessica, I am so happy to have 27 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,200 you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me 28 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,120 today. All of your books seem to have 29 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,320 this common thread, which is obviously ethics. 30 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,360 You're a bioethicist, so I would love to understand more about 31 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,880 what that means to a regular everyday human who doesn't work 32 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,200 in the sciences. Sure. 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:13,760 So ethics is Bioethics in particular is the study of moral 34 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,360 values and ethical quandaries that arise sort of at the 35 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:24,760 intersection of human value making with the Biological 36 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,200 Sciences. So in particular, like most 37 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,760 people who do bioethics are involved in medical ethics by 38 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,200 biomedical ethics. And that was how I started. 39 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,440 I worked in a medical school, taught medical students for a 40 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,120 number of years. But to me, it's been really 41 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,640 interesting to sort of develop that in the direction of 42 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,720 ethology and evolutionary biology and these other 43 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,480 Biological Sciences that also have a really profound impact on 44 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,960 how we understand the natural world and the beings in that 45 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,040 world and how we relate to them. If we go back to when you were 46 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,760 younger, how did your relationship with dogs start? 47 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,040 Did did you grow up with dogs in your family? 48 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,560 I did one of my favourite stories about myself is that I 49 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,120 am actually named after a dog. I'm named after my parents, 50 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,080 Irish Setter Jesse. So I'm very proud of that. 51 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:20,920 Like it's gorgeous, good heritage, amazing. 52 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,080 So I, there were dogs in my life from, you know, the embryonic 53 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,720 stage and I got my first dog. I was probably 9. 54 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:36,280 Rufus was my first dog and it it's sort of horrifies me now, 55 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,840 but at the time, of course, I didn't know any better. 56 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,200 But Rufus, I think was one of the very first of the cross 57 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,520 bred. He was supposedly A cockapoo. 58 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,880 Not true. Like looking back on his, what 59 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,360 he looked like and who he was definitely not. 60 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,040 But it was like the beginning of this interest in these designer 61 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:57,720 dogs. I guess you could say that would 62 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,040 be the term of art now. So, yeah, so I had with dogs 63 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,240 growing up as children, we typically our family would have 64 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,240 three dogs at a time, which you can imagine the chaos and cats 65 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,080 and lots of other things too. And then I went for a period 66 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,880 without dogs when I was in school and Graduate School and 67 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,680 then began my life with dogs as a as an adult and sort of being 68 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,920 the prime caregiver and responsible person when I was 69 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,600 about 30, so just before having a human child. 70 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,160 So it's always been an interspecies household. 71 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:38,600 And I now have just one dog, Bella, who's 14 1/2 and is sadly 72 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:44,280 not doing. She's really on that, on that 73 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:48,160 final down escalator I think, and I'll be dog free for the 74 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,720 first time in my life. Wow, what would that be like? 75 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:55,960 I don't know, I'm curious to see I on the one hand, I think it's 76 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:03,000 going to be profoundly liberating because dogs are such 77 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:09,920 a heavy responsibility. Their happiness and well-being 78 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:14,640 is your job. And I think if you, if you love 79 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,440 your dog, that's a hard, it's a hard burden to just worry always 80 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,760 about whether you're doing the right thing and doing the best 81 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:26,120 that you can. And, and especially at this end 82 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,360 of life stage, it's, it's so heart wrenching. 83 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,480 I don't know if I can do it again, at least for a while, but 84 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,320 it's, it's going to feel empty. I'm sure it's going to feel very 85 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,360 empty without dogs. And that probably won't last too 86 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,800 long, but we'll see. That's really tough. 87 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,360 Did Bella influence how you view dogs now? 88 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,960 Absolutely, each of the dogs that I've lived with has really 89 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,800 changed who I am, which is how I think it should be Co creating 90 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,520 each other, we and our dogs. Bella's lesson to me, to put it 91 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:02,200 in a nutshell, was that dogs are not problems to be fixed, but 92 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,440 are beings to be understood. Because Bella is, you know, she 93 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:12,640 doesn't fit the cultural, human cultural stereotype of what a 94 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,960 good dog is because she, she doesn't like people. 95 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,880 Like that's the main thing. And except for her very small 96 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,520 pack, which at the moment I think is about like 4 people and 97 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,920 those four people she loves intensely and is profoundly 98 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,800 loyal to. But anybody else not interested? 99 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,960 And if you try to touch her on the head, she'll correct you. 100 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:39,920 And you know, she's just, she has her own ideas. 101 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,320 Like she is very trainable in the sense that she's very smart. 102 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:50,120 She's a hurting mix of some sort, very smart, but she is so 103 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,600 smart that I think she just sees that most of human efforts to 104 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,200 train dogs are silly. Like, why does she need to do 105 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,960 that? So it's been an exercise for me. 106 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:06,280 And like, I think letting go of how I was thinking about control 107 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:12,760 and how I was thinking about the human dog relationship and 108 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:20,160 really a loosening up in a I've learned to really respect canine 109 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,360 boundaries and canine agency because of Bella and just 110 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,960 letting her for who she is, you know, and we try to do that with 111 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,040 our human family too. You know, you love who you love, 112 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,600 you are who you are, and we celebrate that. 113 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,040 And so I think with our dog family members and I feel the 114 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,280 same way. We just we take them for who 115 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,240 they are and not try to change them into somebody else because, 116 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,680 you know, if you marry, for example, a human partner 117 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,080 thinking they're going to change to become the person you want, 118 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,480 you know, it's probably not going to end well. 119 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,080 And I think with dogs, we come at them with these expectations 120 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,480 about what we want. And then when they don't fit 121 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,800 into that box, we get very frustrated and upset. 122 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,600 You know, sometimes we take them back to the shelter and say, I 123 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,480 would, you know, I'm going to turn this one in and get 124 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,560 another. Sometimes we just sort of gut it 125 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,640 out and feel frustrated and angry for our whole 126 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,440 relationship. And I think sometimes then we 127 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,960 come to this mutual understanding of, you know, we 128 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,600 are both our own people. Dogs are people too. 129 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,840 In that sense, in their own way, absolutely. 130 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,200 You touched on control. I'm curious about how control 131 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,120 manifested for you and where those ideas come from for you 132 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,799 specific specifically. I think that my ideas about 133 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:40,720 control came from largely from the dog training literature and 134 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,840 this very strong narrative that to be a good, responsible dog 135 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,160 owner, you have to be in control of your dog. 136 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,000 I mean, you, how often do you hear that you need to be in 137 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,240 control of your dog? And there's very little room for 138 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,760 nuance in that. Yes, you need to be able to 139 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,640 control to some extent how your dog interacts with other people 140 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,320 or other dogs when you're out in the world. 141 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,200 Otherwise there's a lot of potential for unsafe situations 142 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,960 or unhappy neighbours and relations. 143 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,400 The need to have a dog who is obedient. 144 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,040 I hate that word too. That's one of those words that 145 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,320 gets stuck in my. I think Bella invited me to to 146 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,560 see that obedience is not the goal, at least for me. 147 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:30,520 At the goal is mutual understanding Dogs, I think are 148 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,080 are really motivated to collaborate with us, to 149 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,880 cooperate with us. That's their their kind of 150 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:42,000 baseline is this very this willingness to to go with it and 151 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,480 to I don't want to say to make us happy because then that I 152 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,040 think that feeds into this narrative. 153 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,240 Our dogs want to be good because they want us to love them. 154 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,080 But you know the idea, for example, I'm, I'm thinking back 155 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,640 to my dog, a dog that I had before Bella Maya, who she was a 156 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,720 pointer mix. So this hunting dog and very, 157 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,960 very like prey motivated and really athletic. 158 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,320 Like she just wanted to run and sniff and chase. 159 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,360 And the idea that I had in my mind and that was instilled into 160 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,880 me by various trainers and by the Humane Society in our, in 161 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,280 our town, the trainers there who are wonderful. 162 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,000 It's a wonderful place. Like, I don't mean any criticism 163 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,160 of that, but this idea that she needed to walk behind me on 164 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,880 heel, the leash needed to be loose and that it was her 165 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,440 responsibility to make sure the least that the leash was loose. 166 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:40,880 And it was her responsibility to follow those rules. 167 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,480 And I started to think, you know, those rules are are not 168 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:47,840 like it's kind of dumb. Why does a dog need to walk 169 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,800 right behind my heel other than to show the world that I have 170 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,760 perfect control, which is an ego thing for me. 171 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,440 It's not really a a well-being thing for my dog. 172 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,480 And she pulled on the leash too terribly. 173 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,320 Like her leash, her leash manners, if you were going to 174 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,640 use the language of dog trainers, were awful. 175 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,640 And I struggled and struggled and struggled against it. 176 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,160 And I was told, you know, you should try a prong collar. 177 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,320 You should try and this kind of escalating up, you should try a 178 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,840 shock collar. And all this time I'm thinking, 179 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,840 well, what am I trying to accomplish? 180 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,480 All I'm trying to accomplish really is suppressing her desire 181 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,800 to be herself and to run hard and chase and sniff and be a 182 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,160 hunting dog. So just, I think that was, that 183 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,240 was the, a point of kind of questioning the human rules and 184 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,240 how we apply them to dogs. And, and with Bella, that has 185 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,680 continued because she's, she, I don't have a problem with the 186 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:48,120 leash. I don't need a leash because 187 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,320 she's a herding dog. And she's right there on my 188 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,960 right next to me, whether I want her to be or not. 189 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:54,440 And that's where she's comfortable. 190 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,000 But there are other, you know, other things that come up and 191 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,720 you could call it non compliance when a dog says no, but you 192 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,320 could also call it a dog having an opinion. 193 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,440 And that's that's where I am going these days. 194 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,200 And if a dog is, I'm using scare quotes. 195 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,960 If you know, for people who are just listening, if a dog is non 196 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,880 compliant, it means you're asking the dog to do something 197 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,240 that is uncomfortable for them in some way. 198 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,800 It's not because they're belligerent, it's because that 199 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,880 it's going to. It's making them uncomfortable. 200 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,640 So offer something else that doesn't make them uncomfortable. 201 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:33,080 What I found really interesting is your realisation through all 202 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,360 of this. If you think about your level of 203 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,360 capacity in the day-to-day, there's only so much energy one 204 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,880 can have, right? How did you manage to still fit 205 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,000 in self-awareness to ensure that your dog has a more optimal 206 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,560 experience in this human world? I think what I have, what I've 207 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:54,440 found for me is that the more general trajectory of my life, 208 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,760 which has involved a kind of a constant effort to become a 209 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:04,520 better person, that doing that in a, in a broad frame trickles 210 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,000 down to my relationship with dogs and with Bella. 211 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,560 So I've spent a lot of time and it's easier now because my, my 212 00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:13,440 daughter's grown and out of the house. 213 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,520 So I do, I think you're absolutely right though. 214 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,000 I mean, there's a certain amount of emotional energy and time 215 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,920 energy that you have to put into sort of figuring out what's 216 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,400 going on with yourself and with those around you. 217 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,720 But spent a lot of of time in Eastern religious traditions and 218 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,800 then the mindful mindfulness literature. 219 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:38,800 And the big takeaway for me from those teachings is that the 220 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,640 source of your unhappiness is usually you, not other people or 221 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,600 not events in the world, but how you respond to them. 222 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,280 And that that's true of relationships with other people. 223 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,880 And I, I think also other animals that it, there's, 224 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,880 there's a benefit to really exploring your own responses. 225 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,360 So for me, it might be something as simple as no one. 226 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,320 Bella barks and she doesn't bark a lot, but she does bark 227 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,360 sometimes if there's a deer out in the yard or somebody's coming 228 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,520 to deliver a package less and less because she's losing her 229 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,200 hearing, which is sad. I'd rather her bark more. 230 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,480 But her bark is, it's like it's right at that register that 231 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,720 makes my blood pressure skyrocket. 232 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,920 And it surprises me too. I'm not expecting it. 233 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,400 And so my initial reaction might be irritation, like you're 234 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,400 interrupting my thought process or my interview or whatever. 235 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,080 And, and really catching myself in those moments and saying 236 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,320 that's she's not barking in order to irritate me. 237 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,320 She's barking in order to communicate something with me. 238 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,680 And I should be grateful for that. 239 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,800 She's giving me information about her and about my 240 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,960 environment and protecting me, perhaps warning me. 241 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,880 And so trying to reframe my own response and in my book, Who's a 242 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,840 Good Dog? That's really what I was 243 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,960 exploring for myself and trying to help other people explore is 244 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,600 just the intellectual and also emotional responses that we have 245 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,560 to our dogs are oftentimes more about us than them. 246 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,280 And coming to them and being with them kind of as the best, 247 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,880 most mature people we can be is a kindness to them. 248 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,920 And you know, there's so much this is a kind of a nuanced 249 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,440 ethical point, but important for me, like the emotional 250 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,080 well-being of our dogs is profoundly important. 251 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,200 I mean, that's their their happiness or unhappiness in in 252 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:34,840 this world. And it really is our 253 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,120 responsibility because they are by no choice of their own, 254 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,760 trapped in this life with us. And when there's a lot of 255 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,240 emotional synchronicity and there's a lot of research on 256 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,280 this and the dog psychology literature that when we're 257 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,320 stressed out, our dogs also get stressed out. 258 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,160 So maybe we have a a responsibility to try to manage 259 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,680 our own internal environment because we're sharing that we're 260 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,400 sharing space and emotions with our dogs. 261 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,880 So it's like the calmer we can be, the calmer they can be and 262 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,360 so forth. Absolutely. 263 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,120 And it's a lot easier to be calm when you don't have children in 264 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,520 the house and etcetera, you know? 265 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,240 Yeah, I think it's really interesting, at least in the 266 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,040 United States, and I think it may be true elsewhere too. 267 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,480 But there's a really strong sort of cultural narrative which is 268 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,680 that if you have children, you should have a dog because 269 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,480 children benefit from, you know, they love dogs, they've got 270 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,160 benefit from having learning responsibility, etcetera, 271 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,000 etcetera. And so this is the kind of 272 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,920 completion of the family. So a lot of people, you see a 273 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,280 lot of people with young children acquiring dogs, which I 274 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,400 did too. And when I think back on my 275 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,280 life, I think that was so really not a wise decision because I 276 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:54,080 already have this sort of chaotic home and I'm introducing 277 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,080 more chaos and I, you know, trying to fit in. 278 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:58,800 OK, we're going to go to soccer practise. 279 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,880 And while we're at soccer practise, then I'm going to walk 280 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,040 the dog, you know, and sort of, yeah, it becomes a chore. 281 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:06,400 And I think you have to tick off. 282 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:13,040 And instead of being able to really let your dog call the 283 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,800 shots 50% of the time, which seems fair, they're really not 284 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,640 getting to call the shots very often at all. 285 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,520 And it just, it ends up being really stressful. 286 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,920 And I think back to just to my own experiences and like, why 287 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,200 did I do that to myself? Because I love dogs, like, and I 288 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,440 wanted and I wanted my daughter to have that experience. 289 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,120 And she wanted, she was, she loves animals too. 290 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:39,600 She's now an ecologist. And so there's this, I think 291 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,920 this strong urge, but I think maybe it's not also the best 292 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,680 time to bring a dog into the mix. 293 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,040 For many families, especially, I think people underestimate the 294 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,320 financial burden of having a dog. 295 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,240 It was just this brought home in in our extended family. 296 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:02,320 My nephew had a rescue dog who he loved her. 297 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,000 Sadly she passed away about a week ago. 298 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,240 She was euthanized because she had a bowel obstruction. 299 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,680 The terrible, but the financial costs to him of the medical 300 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,800 interventions leading up to her eventual euthanizing were 301 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,160 tremendous. And he's like, kid who can bit, 302 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,360 you know, it's, he's having trouble getting a job and, you 303 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,240 know, paying his rent. And then on top of that, now 304 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,160 he's got this extra burden. So I think it'd be nice if there 305 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,000 were a little more transparency in how how much work it is to 306 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,840 have a dog and how much it costs to take good care of a dog. 307 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,800 And ultimately, I sound kind of like a curmudgeon because I 308 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,960 think fewer people should have dogs. 309 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:46,920 There should be fewer dogs in the world. 310 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,160 Like, how can you say that if you love dogs? 311 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,160 It's like I say that because I love dogs. 312 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,920 I completely agree with you. It feels so heavy on my heart 313 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,840 knowing that, you know, so many people are buying puppies 314 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,360 without understanding fully what they are buying and what they 315 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:06,000 are essentially committing to. Of course, it's a personal 316 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,400 choice, but I think just having the level of awareness that I do 317 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,800 through the podcast and speaking to people and rescue, it's, it's 318 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,080 a level of awareness. I guess the average person, 319 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,440 unless you're interested in those things, wouldn't be Privy 320 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,040 to. And so there's a conflict there. 321 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,680 How do we kind of how do we move forward? 322 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,280 There's so many different issues at this moment in time. 323 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,760 Yeah, I, I completely agree with you. 324 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,160 And I have those same, the same kind of emotional, it's a kind 325 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,840 of a dissonance, you know, loving, loving dogs and loving 326 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,520 the on the individual level, but yet having a dog sort of buys 327 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,120 you into so many of these institutional patterns and 328 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:46,320 structures that are really bad for dogs. 329 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,560 And you know, I've, that's why it's a really interesting area 330 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,680 for an ethicist too, because there are these multiple layers 331 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,320 of things going on. And somebody purchasing a 332 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,600 Frenchie, currently the most popular breed in the United 333 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,160 States, is not thinking about extreme confirmation and, you 334 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,200 know, brachycephaly and the health problems that come with 335 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,400 that. I, in my critical moments, want 336 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,080 to say, well, you should be thinking about that. 337 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,480 You should be aware of the implications of the choices that 338 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,080 you're making, consumer choices and dogs shouldn't be consumer 339 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,240 products in the 1st place. And the fact that we're 340 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,480 exchanging money for them gives us. 341 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,840 The sense that we have a right to treat them as objects, as 342 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,040 products, and not as beings. Where do you think humans drop 343 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,480 the ball in our interpretation or understanding of the human 344 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,200 dog relationship? Oh, sheesh. 345 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,600 OK, well, how much time do we have left? 346 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,880 OK, OK. So I mean one example that comes 347 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,880 really immediately to mind is if you go into a Petco or a 348 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,240 PetSmart, you know these big box pet stores and go to the 349 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,840 training aisle, you'll find you know, shelf after shelf after 350 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,920 shelf of shock collars and bark deterrents, select electric 351 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,080 fences, you know, ultrasonic etcetera. 352 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,120 And I think that's a, that's a dropping the ball because we are 353 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:18,160 first of all, we're assigning to dog behaviour, a natural dog 354 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,600 behaviour, barking. Let's take that example. 355 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,720 We're saying barking is bad without understanding that, you 356 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,680 know, for a canid a dog and not not all canids bark like like 357 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,560 the domestic dog barking has evolved in really unique and 358 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,120 interesting ways in canis familiaris and particular 359 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,960 barking has evolved as at least this is the speculation by 360 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,320 researchers as a way for dogs to communicate with us, you know, 361 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,280 which is perhaps why wolves don't don't bark in the same way 362 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,800 or as much as domestic dogs. Just to throw out one example. 363 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,040 So we take this behaviour that's that we have shaped through our 364 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,280 Co evolution and our domestication of dogs that 365 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,880 clearly is adaptive for dogs and we label it a bad behaviour, 366 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,520 something dogs shouldn't do. And then we buy products that 367 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,240 punish them for doing it and it makes them crazy. 368 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,480 Like if you look at the veterinary literature, the 369 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:20,400 statistics on anxiety and stress in companion dogs, is that when 370 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,520 they're off the charts? I mean, I saw one recently that 371 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,800 said that 99% of dogs, you know, in this large study, the owners 372 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,680 reported some level of anxiety, stress, behavioural disturbance. 373 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,600 And like that's not normal, that's a dropping the ball. 374 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,000 I think that. So I think how we, how we frame 375 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,120 and how we respond to behaviours is, is a big thing. 376 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,000 And this whole, if you look at a list of, of bad behaviours, like 377 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,240 even in the veterinary literature and the training 378 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,520 literature, you'll see barking, digging, roaming, jumping up on 379 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,840 people, counter surfing. These are all dogs being dogs. 380 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,240 Like a dog chasing a squirrel is not a bad dog, It's a dog doing 381 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,520 a dog thing. And so we have this list of 382 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,920 behaviours that we find annoying or inappropriate or disobedient 383 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,040 or whatever language you want to put on around them. 384 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,080 And we punish dogs for doing them. 385 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,880 And so dogs aren't really allowed to be who they are. 386 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,400 I think the, the breeding of dogs is, is really, we're 387 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,320 dropping the ball in a major way there. 388 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,000 I mean, I think there are some efforts to try to do things 389 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,240 better, but the, the breeding of dogs for teacup size, for 390 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,320 example, which is a big thing here, like the smaller you can 391 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,320 make the dog, the better the cuter. 392 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,120 And so they can fit in your handbag. 393 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,520 It's not good for dogs at all. Making dogs with really short 394 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,560 legs and really long bodies are they they're funny to look at, 395 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,960 but it's not good for the dog. We dropped the ball and social 396 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,560 media as it relates to dogs all the time. 397 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,320 I just saw a new academic article yesterday. 398 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,240 I haven't read it yet, but the title caught my attention. 399 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,840 It was some about how social media cute, like funny dog 400 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,520 videos are usually not funny from the dog's point of view. 401 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,200 And like one that comes to mind that I've watched a few times 402 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,320 because I so like, I can't quite believe that somebody's doing 403 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,520 this, but it's really popular, gets a lot of hits. 404 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,280 Is this guy dresses up as AT Rex in this great big dinosaur 405 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,920 costume and comes into the room and the dog is scared out of its 406 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,480 mind and just like racing around. 407 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,160 And I didn't say it's, I said her mind, not his. 408 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:31,400 You know, I just did that. It's it's a process and you can 409 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,160 tell it's stage 2. It's like, why would you do 410 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,720 that? That's cruel. 411 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,280 But everybody laughs and thinks it's funny. 412 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,200 And so I'll stop there. I mean, I, I could go on and on. 413 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,280 I think it's, it's interesting to me. 414 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,280 I went and you said you wanted to talk about this and we can, 415 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,960 if you still want to. But the reason I started writing 416 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:54,000 about dogs about 1520 years ago was because I had been in my 417 00:24:54,000 --> 00:25:00,280 work in biomedical ethics in the medical setting. 418 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,600 I've been working on sustainability and like 419 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,000 environmental, environmental degradation and climate change. 420 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,840 And it's like daily just immersed in this literature 421 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:15,280 about how bad things are for the, for the planet and like 422 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,040 really scary existential risk sorts of things. 423 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,320 I wasn't sleeping well. I was really, really stressed 424 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,440 out. And I'm like, I need to change. 425 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,160 I need to work in an area that makes me happy and dogs make me 426 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,400 happy. So I wrote my first book about 427 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,840 dogs, which wasn't really a happy topic. 428 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,320 It was about my dog Odie's last year of life and just having to 429 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,880 navigate end of life decisions for him, which I found so 430 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,400 profoundly difficult and really complex ethically. 431 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,080 So anyway, I even though it was a sad topic, it was wonderful 432 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,880 because I was talking to people about their dogs and you know, 433 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,520 working with dog people and vets and so forth. 434 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,920 And I've loved it up until about, I don't know, three or 435 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,920 four years ago. And then it started to not feel 436 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,440 fun anymore because like, just being immersed always in the dog 437 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,840 literature and the dog veterinary literature and the 438 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,400 training literature and the welfare literature, dogs are 439 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,440 really suffering. And it's not that people are 440 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,400 bad. It's just there are all these, 441 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,920 you know, ball droppings or just ways in which somehow our 442 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,040 trajectory has gone off the rails and it just got to be 443 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,080 hard. And I'd instead of when I see 444 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,400 somebody out walking their dog, instead of feeling joyful and 445 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,360 seeing that I feel depressed, I'd say, oh God, they've got a 446 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:38,640 bark colour on or God, they're tugging on the leash and you 447 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,120 know, etcetera, etcetera. And so I just had stepped away 448 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:44,920 from it for a little while. I feel better now, but it's 449 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,160 hard. If you love dogs, and you may 450 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,080 experience this yourself, just being kind of immersed in this 451 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,280 world, it's there's a lot of sadness. 452 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,160 And the more more you know, the more it hurts. 453 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,760 Yeah, like a smaller laugh about it because it's ironic. 454 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,920 You know there is bliss in ignorance. 455 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,640 Yes, there is indeed. So you've written a lot of 456 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,960 amazing, amazing books. I've only read two of them, but 457 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,680 I know that they are amazing because they are so thought 458 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,000 provoking and I think interesting and really gets us 459 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,960 to essentially, I feel they align with the ethos of this 460 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,080 podcast And I was thinking, would you ever consider writing 461 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,640 a book from a dog's perspective? Yes. 462 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,640 And humans. Yes, IA Dog's world, which I 463 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,640 think is one that you have read that Mark Beckhoff and I wrote 464 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,800 together was an attempt to do that to some extent. 465 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,360 Like it was a like a meta thought experiment. 466 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,720 What would it be like for dogs as a species if humans 467 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,960 disappeared? But in terms of writing from a 468 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,160 dog's perspective within a family system or something on 469 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,640 that more micro level, I think the book that I just finished is 470 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,600 kind of an attempt to do that sort of, but it's called How to 471 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,400 be a good human. And it's, I love that it's a 472 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,760 companion to my book who's a good dog? 473 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,880 It's not sorry, it's not how to be, it's who's a good human. 474 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,640 So companion to who's a good dog? 475 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,680 And it's, it's a human training book written, you could say, 476 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,000 from a dog's perspective, like what would be helpful for us to 477 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,080 think about as humans living with dogs to improve our 478 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,720 relationships with them? And it's things like, you know, 479 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,680 inviting people to think differently about barking to 480 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,800 like through understanding that barking is a sophisticated form 481 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,840 of communication between dogs and humans and responding to it 482 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,040 with curiosity rather than irritation. 483 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,320 Or this is something I need to stop seeing it instead as as 484 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,080 part of this really interesting Co evolution or, you know, just 485 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,360 understanding what we're bringing to the table 486 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,600 emotionally and how that's impacting our dog. 487 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,240 It would be interesting. I mean, that's an intriguing 488 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,920 idea, though, to really try to that. 489 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,360 I don't, I don't know what it would look like. 490 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:53,920 I'll think about it. I'll get back to you. 491 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,480 Well, you have your first customer. 492 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,560 I'm sure it will be brilliant and very thought provoking in 493 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,160 one of your books. I think it's unleashing the dog. 494 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,000 I first became aware of the term. 495 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,120 I think it was a learned helplessness. 496 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,360 And I found that really interesting because I think my 497 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,200 foster dog Juna was in that frame of mind before she came to 498 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,320 me. And it's been really interesting 499 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,480 to see her respond with her agency. 500 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,680 So I give her agency. And so seeing it's almost like 501 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,280 she initially didn't trust it, and now she's kind of pushing 502 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,080 boundaries ever so slightly. You know, let me see what I can 503 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,280 do here. You know, so it's really 504 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,680 interesting to see that kind of moral life evolved because if I 505 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,160 had thoughts about control, she'd be in trouble. 506 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,800 But actually, I'd see it as exploration. 507 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,920 And, you know, how lovely is it that she's learning to feel 508 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,720 safe? And she lets me know she wants 509 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,480 to walk around the block that way. 510 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,160 That way, you know, she wants to eat now instead of later. 511 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,640 She, you know, whatever it might be, you know, she's not 512 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,080 interested in playing this game. And she goes and she sleeps. 513 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,720 And, you know, I could give you lots of different examples, but 514 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,280 what are some ways that dogs learn this helplessness? 515 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,040 And how? What does that look like in a 516 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,360 dog from your experience? So I think think the way way 517 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:19,320 this gets ingrained in a dog is when something they're exposed 518 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,000 to a negative stimulus of some sort and they can't get away 519 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,120 from it. They try and they can't get away 520 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,120 from it and it happens again and again. 521 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,600 And every time they try to get away from it, it's unsuccessful. 522 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,560 So they just stop trying to get away from it and kind of shut 523 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:42,040 down emotionally. And I think what it would look 524 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,560 like is kind of what you're describing this as a kind of a 525 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,640 dog who is scared of her own shadow is just shut down and 526 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,640 afraid to afraid to explore, afraid to be themselves. 527 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,680 And so I think like a dog who every time they bark, they get 528 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,840 scolded or punished, they're going to eventually learn that 529 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,440 that's not it doesn't work and they're going to get shut down 530 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,640 emotionally. And it's AI think the way you 531 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,400 phrased it was really beautiful because it suggests that rather 532 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,800 than like a dog who's starting to push boundaries or not comply 533 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,000 and explore on their own and really be their own person is 534 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,760 actually a wonderful thing. It's not a, it's not a dog 535 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,720 starting to be bad, it's a dog starting to be good and starting 536 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,760 to really feel safe in their environment. 537 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:39,280 And that's a beautiful thing. So I think really, you know, one 538 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,320 of one of the lessons there is that punishment based training 539 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,400 is not very effective in the long term. 540 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,200 People think it gets results and it does in the very short term, 541 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,600 but the results come at great cost because of, you know, this 542 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,960 the emotional consequences for the dog of this kind of 543 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,000 experience of just getting every time you do something, you get 544 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,320 hurt, you just stop trying and you just shut down, you stop 545 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,400 trying to do anything. So, and I always kind of think 546 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,720 about analogues to human parenting. 547 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:17,000 And, you know, I think if you had a child who always was 548 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,200 perfect and did absolutely everything and never pushed a 549 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,280 boundary, you might worry like you want them to do that. 550 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,560 You want them to be, have some spunk and, you know, within 551 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,160 reason and be their own person. Just say no, That's, you know, 552 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,760 no, that's not who I am. That's not what I like. 553 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,560 I like this. I'm going to do this. 554 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,920 And instead of these, you see some kids who are just sort of 555 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,920 cowed by parental pressures to be a certain way or behave a 556 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,600 certain way. And I feel sad when I see that 557 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,440 rather than, you know, they might look very well behaved, 558 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,480 but they're not very happy. That could be the learned 559 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:53,920 helplessness. Exactly. 560 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,000 Yeah, so. You mentioned some of the 561 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,760 negative stimuli. What could some of those things 562 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,360 be that people wouldn't normally think of? 563 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,080 I think that, I mean, it could be a lot of things and some of 564 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,160 which are really subtle and you know, I might make some drainers 565 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,840 angry if I say this, but I think some obvious things would be 566 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,720 like a shot caller that's obviously going to be a 567 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,160 negative. That's a punishment in the 568 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,960 behavioural modification term, something that is unpleasant. 569 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,520 And there are some more benign, putting those as sort of in 570 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,240 scare quotes, things that people, you know, are often told 571 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,440 to do, like spray a dog in the face with water, like it's not 572 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,720 going to do any lasting physical damage, but that's a punishment. 573 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,640 It's startling and unpleasant. Even ignoring a dog. 574 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,080 I mean, more often told if a dog is bugging you, ignore them. 575 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,920 That's unpleasant. That's, you know, emotionally 576 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:54,000 unpleasant for a dog and scary perhaps this this person that 577 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,600 you're totally dependent on. And we make our dogs totally 578 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,160 dependent on us physically, emotionally, like they can't 579 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,120 survive without our help and our affection. 580 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,880 So to take that away to me seems cruel. 581 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,520 I would agree. There were, again, I read about 582 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,719 this in your book, things even such as noise in the 583 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,880 environment. I thought that was really 584 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,600 interesting because that's not something I would have 585 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,239 considered before. Yeah, and that's a good example 586 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,639 of like these aren't things that we're doing to our dog in order 587 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:29,159 to try to shape their behaviour. But things that are potentially 588 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:33,520 like negative sensory stimulation over stimulation in 589 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,760 the environment that can have a really profound impact on our 590 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,960 dog's well-being would be things like the acoustic environment. 591 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,920 If we think about how sensitive their ears are and how much they 592 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,239 can hear that we can't. Then to put this them in, in a 593 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,280 home where there's a microwave beeping and there's traffic 594 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:55,400 going by and there are sirens and TV's and music and all of 595 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,400 this sensory stimulation. None of it per SE, but it's a 596 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,040 lot. And there's been a little bit of 597 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,760 research on acoustic stress and dogs drawing an analogy to 598 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,800 research in the human realm, which I think is quite relevant 599 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,280 to dogs. A lot of research in the last 600 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,440 decade or so on the effects of noise on human Physiology. 601 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,160 And you know, the long term health effects of living in, for 602 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,000 example, a very congested traffic area or where there's 603 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,880 just a lot of background noise are pretty profound. 604 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,720 And the same is very likely true of dogs. 605 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:32,480 And there was a study of dogs near of who lived near a 606 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,560 football stadium in, I forget exactly what was in Spain or I 607 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,920 forget. But anyway, it was this study of 608 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,880 their stress level on game days versus non game days. 609 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,600 And on game days, you know, there's all this loud cheering 610 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,160 and, you know, human, human noise and not, you know, it's 611 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,440 predictable outcome, right. On those very loud game days, 612 00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:54,720 the dog stress level was quite a bit higher. 613 00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:59,480 So I think one of the kindnesses we can offer our dogs is to be 614 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,000 dog centred, like pretend that you are your dog for a little 615 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,120 while and pretend that you're hearing was very acute and just 616 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,960 you know, wander around, crawl around your house on 4 legs and 617 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,000 and see what your dog might be hearing. 618 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,560 And a lot of it you won't even hear, but they will. 619 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,920 And I think just, you know, make a map of your dog soundscape and 620 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,320 if you do that, and then maybe spend some time observing their 621 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,240 behaviour around different sounds or maybe at different 622 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:31,120 times of day. If you know, if you live in an 623 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,880 area where there's a lot of car traffic or foot traffic, you 624 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,920 know, do you notice any behavioural differences in your 625 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,880 dog during those high traffic times? 626 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,720 And just become an observer, a naturalist in your home and see, 627 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,880 see what you can see. You know, the same goes for the, 628 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,520 the smell environment. You know, dogs, their noses are 629 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,840 unbelievable. Just reading a study of dogs 630 00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:01,120 being able to basically, they can smell our, our DNA, our 631 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,280 genes and can they can distinguish like they'll know 632 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,040 that people are identical twins by theirs because they smell the 633 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,720 same and it's super interesting anyway, like their nose is 634 00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:14,680 amazing. So, and we talked about this in 635 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,680 unleashing your dog Mark and I about scent. 636 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,640 We call it scent identity that, you know, like we have for 637 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,520 ourselves. Maybe how we look, how we 638 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,320 present ourselves visually to the world is important because 639 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,280 humans are very visual creatures. 640 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,360 But for dogs, you know, it's really like a smell scent, a 641 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:37,560 smell, a scent identity. It's how how dogs recognise and 642 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,680 communicate with each other through their through their 643 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,080 olfactory sense. So there are a couple of things. 644 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:47,240 One thing is that we don't often give dogs time enough to smell 645 00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:49,320 each other or smell their environment. 646 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,160 So we're depriving them of some really important sensory 647 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,200 information when we do that, when we like tug them along on a 648 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:57,720 leash that there's nothing there. 649 00:37:57,720 --> 00:37:59,480 What are you doing smelling like? 650 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,960 Well, there actually is. There's a lot there or thinking, 651 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,560 you know, don't smell that dog's pee. 652 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,120 That's gross. No, the dogs actually need, they 653 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,760 need to smell each other's pee. There's, they're sending a lot 654 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,080 of information to each other that. 655 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,320 So letting them smell like themselves is one thing. 656 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,800 Like we think it's a good idea to give our dogs baths, you 657 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,160 know, once a week in cherry blossom shampoo. 658 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,800 We might like it, but I don't think our dogs particularly like 659 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,040 it because they don't smell like themselves anymore. 660 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,160 And also when our homes are full of, you know, detergents and 661 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,440 cleaners and fabric softeners and this and that and the other 662 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,720 thing, I mean, it's a, it's a smell environment that we 663 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,480 probably don't notice that much. But for our dogs, it's really, 664 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,120 I'm sure they're acutely aware of it. 665 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,600 And again, it's a probably over stimulating for them. 100% just 666 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,960 last night. I keep talking about Duna but 667 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,040 it's just the only example I have at the moment. 668 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,880 I did my laundry yesterday and I don't typically use fabric 669 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,880 softener, but I recently smelled a really delicious smelling 670 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,240 fabric softener and I thought, oh, I'll buy this and try it. 671 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,120 I hung my laundry next to my bed in my bedroom next to the 672 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,360 radiator. And last night was the first 673 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,360 time she didn't want to come to bed. 674 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,880 And I did think because of your book this morning I was like, I 675 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,920 wonder if it's because of the smell, as in like it's too 676 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:15,840 overpowering. It was right next to the bed. 677 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,000 So that that would make perfect sense with hindsight. 678 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,040 That's a great example is perfect and it's wonderful that 679 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,960 you thought that like that's that's what I want people to do 680 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,280 after reading my books is start to notice those sorts of things 681 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,600 and pay attention to them because they're first of all, 682 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,200 really interesting and second of all, have a big impact on our 683 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,360 dogs and our relationship with our dogs. 684 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,320 And so the more we can be canine scientists in our own homes, we 685 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:49,120 are all scientists of canine behaviour. 686 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,080 If we live with the dog. And I think one thing that 687 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,280 happens that's unfortunate is we get kind of scared of our own 688 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,680 interpretations. And we think, oh, we need to ask 689 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,360 an an expert or read a book by an expert. 690 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,080 And I would say no, I mean. I mean, that's helpful too. 691 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,400 Do that too, although be careful what kind of expert, because a 692 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,160 lot of people who claim that they're experts in dog behaviour 693 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,960 are not actually, but trust your own observations, make your own 694 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,760 observations and be a citizen scientist in your own house in 695 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:22,320 this, this unique ecosystem of you, your family and your dog. 696 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:27,280 It's I think the best way to understand your dog and to be a 697 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,680 better human for your dog. So I highly encourage that. 698 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,000 Well, I think it all starts with intention, by the intention to 1 699 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,040 to either understand the dog or one to be a better human being 700 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,920 because I do see a lot of crossover there. 701 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,400 Observing and opening your eyes and really noticing someone 702 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,360 else's experience has a knock on effect in all relationships that 703 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,960 we have and being able to like, interpret communication. 704 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,000 Yeah, exactly. Making it. 705 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,800 We have, I think, a tendency as as humans to kind of make it all 706 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,840 about us. And like the mindfulness 707 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,880 literature is, it's not all about us. 708 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,600 You know, it's one of my very favourite quotes from Pema 709 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,480 Chodron, who's a Buddhist teacher, is you are this guy. 710 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,280 Everything else is just the weather. 711 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,920 And I really love that. And I think about that in 712 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,360 relation to Abella and to all, to dogs in generals. 713 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:26,320 We need to recognise the weather and not get to too pulled into 714 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,760 that and just step back and be this guy. 715 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,560 I would love to know what. Drives you. 716 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,720 What pushes you to keep going? And perhaps also what questions 717 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,720 are still left unanswered? I think what drives me. 718 00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:44,680 Is I hate to see animals suffer. I hate to see people suffer too. 719 00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:48,120 I just have focused more on animals recently. 720 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,840 Although I will say, when I got, when I really started to feel 721 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,520 burned out in the dog arena, I decided to become a volunteer 722 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,880 firefighter. And so I, about two years ago I 723 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,880 started volunteering and it's, it's really been, I love it. 724 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,800 It's amazing. It's so much, I mean, fun isn't 725 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,760 the right word. We use fun as type 2 fun, the 726 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,000 phrase that we use a lot. Like most people would look at 727 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,280 what you're doing and think, Oh my God, that looks awful. 728 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,000 But to us it's fun, you know, crawling around through mazes 729 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,720 with air tanks on. But it's been, it's been a good 730 00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:24,760 reminder to me that humans are suffering too. 731 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:31,200 And I think I, one of my core values is service. 732 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,320 I want to help others. So one way to do that is, you 733 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,160 know, being a first responder. And another way to do that is 734 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:43,360 trying to help people understand who dogs are so that they can be 735 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,560 better, better humans, more understanding. 736 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:51,480 And I think really that that drives me in, I mean, it's 737 00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:56,320 partly it's my own quest to, to, and the reason I'm probably in 738 00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:01,280 the field of ethics is that I, it matters to me that I live a 739 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:06,480 good life, good as in I want to be a, a responsible and 740 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:16,640 contributing part of society and self improvement always. 741 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,520 And I think that we talked about that a little before, just the 742 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:26,320 when I can have insights about myself, those almost always have 743 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:31,000 trickled down into my relationships with animals and 744 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,240 people. You mentioned about Bella coming 745 00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:34,600 towards. The end of her life. 746 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:38,320 It's obviously very sensitive. This will be your third time, I 747 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,720 mean, to make a very difficult decision. 748 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,920 What questions are going through your mind knowing what you know 749 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,560 about your previous experiences, but also with Bella 750 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:47,840 specifically? Yeah. 751 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,360 And I will say to. Start off, it's not. 752 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,880 It's not uncomfortable for me, it's difficult because it's 753 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,000 emotional. But I think one of the things 754 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,400 that's really hard about end of life care, and this was my first 755 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,720 book about dogs, The Last Walk, is that people are afraid to 756 00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:05,320 talk about it. And I think because it's so 757 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,200 painful and so raw and, you know, if you start talking about 758 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,520 this with somebody who has experienced it, you'll both be, 759 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,640 you know, a sobbing before long. Some of the things that are 760 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,840 going through my mind. Bella is 14 1/2. 761 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:25,640 When she was 9, she had an accident jumping off of She tore 762 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,520 her cruciate ligament in her knee. 763 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,040 It's not the cruciate ligament in a dog, but the human 764 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,520 equivalent. And on the advice of our 765 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,880 veterinarian, she had surgery to repair the ligament and it 766 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,320 didn't work. She seemed OK at first after. 767 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,240 I mean, it's a horrible surgery, like a month of being on the 768 00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:48,640 floor with her and just crying and pain and she went out to pee 769 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,560 one day and it just popped out of place. 770 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,200 So on the advice of veterinarian, we did a second 771 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,120 surgery where they actually like cut the bone and they do this 772 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,280 kind of, they put a plate in. And anyway, Long story short, 773 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,680 she's physically disabled and has been for a number of years. 774 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:10,640 And I think that that kind of set off a cascade of of mobility 775 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,000 issues. So that you know, her hips are 776 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,440 are really arthritic. Her feet, feet are really like 777 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,600 flattened out and arthritic. So basically it hurts her to 778 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,240 walk. She can walk enough to go 779 00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:24,400 outside to pee. But when we go on walks, we put 780 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,320 her in a stroller, which I'm happy to say she loves. 781 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,400 She loves her stroller. It's so cute. 782 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,760 She sticks her head out the top and she gets a treat every time 783 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,960 she goes gets out and gets back in and sometimes just because 784 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:41,480 she's cute. She stopped eating about a month 785 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,400 ago almost completely. And her regular food had just 786 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,520 had no interest and treats some interest, but not too much. 787 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:54,360 And that was that really got us concerned and got us talking 788 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,480 about the end that is, I know it's around the corner 789 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,280 somewhere. Bella's been diagnosed, by the 790 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,000 way, with cancer twice. But she's, you know, I don't 791 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,840 know, She's, she's tough. She's it doesn't seem to be the 792 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,560 thing that's driving her decline at the moment. 793 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,280 She does. I just have she's developed some 794 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,920 Alzheimer's like in dogs, canine cognitive dysfunction and at 795 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,240 night it's called sundowning at night. 796 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,920 Dogs will with this will get very confused and kind of 797 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,560 disoriented and anxious. So we have to be we've had to 798 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,200 adapt a lot of aspects of our our house environment. 799 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:34,760 We have like all the floors are covered because she doesn't have 800 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,120 great control of her bladder. So there are there are fair 801 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,200 number of accidents that that doesn't bother us. 802 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:42,560 As you know, it's not a big deal. 803 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,480 You just you clean it up. I shouldn't say it's not AI 804 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,480 don't want to under emphasise that it, it's a caregiving 805 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:50,360 challenge. It is. 806 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,960 But it's it's not too bad for us. 807 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,960 She's running into things now. Her vision is pretty limited. 808 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,160 So she'll sometimes run into a corner when she thinks it's the 809 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,240 door, but the door is actually, you know, like a foot over the 810 00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:06,880 shadows. But we leave the lights on now 811 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,760 all the time because that seems to help. 812 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:13,400 And I mean, I think it's just like a daily tracking of her 813 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,040 quality of life as we perceive it. 814 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,080 My husband and I, it's good. We have two people and, you 815 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,040 know, we're pretty on track with each other, but just checking 816 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,960 in. And it's almost become a joke 817 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,040 now. We're like, we try to kind of 818 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,200 give a, on a scale of one to five, you know, what kind of day 819 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:30,840 was it? And for a while there we were 820 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,360 having days where it was like a 2 or even a 1 1/2. 821 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,200 Is that from? Sorry, is that from your? 822 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,920 Perspective or what for her from what we think she's? 823 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:45,280 Feeling like so yeah, what how she's doing as best as we can 824 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,480 understand it. And I think at this point in a 825 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,040 in an animal's life, you have to do 2 things at once that are 826 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,800 contradictory. You have to keep in your mind 827 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,640 that you aren't a dog and you're not this dog. 828 00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,120 So that all of the feelings and thoughts that you're 829 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,080 attributing, you know, there's a level of uncertainty and, you 830 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,600 know, we can't get inside another being's experience, 831 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,680 human or dog. And it's more difficult when 832 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,240 it's a different species and they can't speak. 833 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:15,880 But so it's, it's from her perspective as we understand it. 834 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,400 And I think it's, it's equally hard with humans. 835 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,720 I've we've lost all of our parents now. 836 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,520 I'm sorry and. You know each one is difficult. 837 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,040 In its own unique way. But one thing that I learned, 838 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,320 especially when my mother passed away, is it's really difficult 839 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,800 to know, even when somebody's telling you I want this or I 840 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,480 want that, whether that's actually what they want or 841 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,680 whether they think that's what you want to hear. 842 00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:43,400 Anyway, we have this point system, and that's kind of a 843 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,160 joke. Oh, Bella, you just, you know, 844 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,640 she barks at a deer in the yard. You got a point? 845 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:52,640 Like any little sign of spunk when she stopped eating. 846 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,000 We. Bella's been a vegan dog for a 847 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,120 number of years, but I had to set that principle aside and we 848 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,760 bought her some hot dogs and some Turkey hot dogs she liked 849 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,280 for a day or two, but then that kind of lost interest. 850 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,600 But she seems to enjoy Turkey, which horrifies me. 851 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,840 But also it's, that's what she needs. 852 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,520 So, you know, it's day by day and week by week. 853 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:21,360 I try to track trends over time because, you know, I think the 854 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,160 way Bella is declining, it's going to be a, I suspect a kind 855 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,840 of a slow, gradual process rather than some, you know, some 856 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:31,200 illness. It's going to take her really 857 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,120 rapidly into a quick and significant decline. 858 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,680 And in a way, this is the hardest scenario because it's 859 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,880 just these little incremental changes and when do you know 860 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,320 that they're, when do you decide you don't know? 861 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,200 When do you think you've tipped into this place where the 862 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,680 balance is not in her favour? And I guess that that's what 863 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,600 we're trying to do every day and week by week is just track 864 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,960 whether her desire to be alive and whether her enjoyment of the 865 00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:05,480 things that she still enjoys are enough. 866 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,640 And then, you know, at some point, I think we'll have to 867 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,320 agree that it's not enough and that the the pain and discomfort 868 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,280 or disorientation outweighing her good experiences. 869 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:22,360 And we, you know, I've thought about this enough and been 870 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,840 through it enough to, you know, we talk about it very openly. 871 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,120 I've talked about it with her vet already. 872 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,640 We've talked about a plan. You know, I think for most dogs 873 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,760 being if you decide on euthanasia, it's wonderful if 874 00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,240 you can do it in the home, in the place that they're 875 00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:39,600 comfortable. I think for Bella that rule 876 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,440 doesn't hold because she gets very uncomfortable when people 877 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,840 come into her space that she doesn't know. 878 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,800 So I think with Bella will probably, unless there's some 879 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,080 unforeseen circumstance, we'll probably take her to the 880 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,360 veterinary office for euthanasia. 881 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,560 I I do suspect that we will choose euthanasia and rather 882 00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:03,080 than natural death because her decline is so it's, it's slow 883 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,160 and kind of insidious, but I don't know for sure. 884 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:07,880 Yeah, that's really tricky, isn't it? 885 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,920 Like. Observing this suffering but 886 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,200 also wanting them to come to the end of their life with dignity. 887 00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:15,520 Yes, it's the hardest. It's we. 888 00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,720 Have to do as people who love animals, I think is to make that 889 00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:22,520 decision and you know with your human loved ones, you don't have 890 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,480 to make that decision. Usually it's they can make the 891 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,240 decision for themselves and it's so much easier that way. 892 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:34,040 I mean, it's still that punch and awful, but it's I think 893 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:39,800 there's when we have the that final moment in our hands as our 894 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,440 responsibility. That's huge and and leaves 895 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,400 people, I think, with long term feelings of guilt and trauma and 896 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,640 regret and pain. I wish I could take that away. 897 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,880 I think it's inevitable, but I think the more you talk about it 898 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,760 them with yourself, talk to yourself, talk to your vets, 899 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,280 talk to your loved ones. You know, I try to get I listen 900 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,400 to other people sort of like when we go, we take Bella to a 901 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:09,920 dog park up the road from us in the mountains and she can't walk 902 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,080 very far. She can maybe 20-30 feet, but we 903 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,080 can get in the gate. She loves to go in and sniff and 904 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,680 she loves other dogs. So that's like an enrichment we 905 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,880 can still do with her. But I see people watching her 906 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,680 because she she walks with AI mean. 907 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,320 It's just very obvious disability and she looks in pain 908 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,960 when she I know it's painful for her to walk and I I see looks of 909 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,640 pity. And I also, I wonder how many 910 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,600 people are thinking you're a mean person for keeping her 911 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,280 alive. I don't think that myself like I 912 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,760 trust our intuitions and this decision making, but I also do I 913 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,680 take that and I take that in when people are saying that I'm 914 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,440 like, am I? Am I too close to this and love 915 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,200 her too much to see what's in front of me? 916 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,360 Yeah, well, if there was no human. 917 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,640 Intervention. She would, you know, nature 918 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,120 would take its course. So I think anything other than 919 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,000 that is very difficult. But at the same time, could be a 920 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,640 blessing. Yeah, it's hard. 921 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,720 I mean this the terrain. Is so morally complex, like the 922 00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:17,600 food issue is really difficult for me because I think on the 923 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:22,120 one hand, if she is choosing not to eat, that's a choice, that's 924 00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,720 her choice and I don't want to force it on her. 925 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,800 And you know, if that's that's what you know, it happens at the 926 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:34,160 end of person or animal's life is that they stop eating or slow 927 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,160 way down in their eating. And so I don't want to hijack 928 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,280 that natural process by forcing her to eat. 929 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,840 At the same time, I have control over all her food choices. 930 00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:48,000 So like offering her a range also seems like something I 931 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,720 should do. So I don't know. 932 00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:53,000 I don't know what I should do, but you are doing your best. 933 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,360 And I think that matters. And she'll know that. 934 00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,520 Yeah, whatever happens, you're it's not your, your one decision 935 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,800 is not going to honour an entire lifetime of evidence for her. 936 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,240 Yeah. You've had a journey together. 937 00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:08,520 And you know, this is very difficult. 938 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,680 I'm sure no one would want to be in that position. 939 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,840 And I think you are doing the best with the information that 940 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,920 you have. Yeah. 941 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,920 So, yeah, but I also mean, I don't think that death is 942 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,800 necessarily like, it's just a natural part love life. 943 00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:33,840 And when someone we love dies, we mourn and we also celebrate, 944 00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,480 not that they're gone, but we celebrate that they were here 945 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:44,240 and celebrate what we share. It's we'll be OK. 946 00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,520 You will, you will. I hope you. 947 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,480 Have a lovely celebration when the time comes, if not, if not, 948 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:53,600 if not already. I mean, you can already 949 00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,400 celebrate her life To leave us on a, I guess I don't want to 950 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:01,040 say positive because I don't see talking about end of life as a 951 00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,200 negative, but to leave us on a more uplifted note. 952 00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,320 What gives you hope about the future of dogs? 953 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,480 Well, podcasts like this. People like you who are really, 954 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,360 and people listening, you know, who are interested in this sort 955 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:19,880 of thing, really trying to understand their dogs as 956 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,840 individuals and meet them where they are and who they are. 957 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,200 And I see that. I see so much, I mean, I've, 958 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:29,960 I've talked about some of the harder things that I see, but I 959 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:36,160 also, so I see so much love between humans and dogs and so 960 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,720 much commitment on the part of humans to do the right thing for 961 00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:43,200 their dog. And it's hard because you don't 962 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,960 know what it is always or you don't have enough information to 963 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:51,440 do it always. But I see people trying and with 964 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,040 so much goodwill and so much effort. 965 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:59,440 And so I think the more, the more of that there is and people 966 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,840 really just taking, taking the commitment seriously, that gives 967 00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,360 me hope. And seeing young people who 968 00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:09,040 really aren't falling into the same, some of the same traps 969 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,320 maybe as as older generations in terms of how to train or how to 970 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,280 how to interact. Or I do see a lot of people 971 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,280 really trying to have relationships where their dogs 972 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,080 have agency and have autonomy and you know, they're, they're 973 00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:28,280 their own person and not just a reflection, a shadow of us. 974 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,600 I agree with you. I am hopeful about. 975 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,240 The, the new, newer generation, definitely there are some 976 00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:38,920 behaviours that seem very different from at least what I 977 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,800 grew up with and I love. What I love about the younger 978 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,080 generation is that they're not afraid to go against the grain. 979 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,240 Yes. They have a kind of confidence 980 00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:51,720 or courage that I wouldn't have dreamed of having when I was a 981 00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:55,520 child in the 80s. Yeah, 100%. 982 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,800 Agree. Yeah, I, I, I love that about 983 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,720 and not just about dogs, but about so many aspects of life, 984 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:08,160 living this courage to be different, be different because 985 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:12,240 I think the same old rules that we've lived by are not, they're 986 00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:14,960 not working very well for dogs. So we really do need to be 987 00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,240 different. Well, Jessica, thank you so 988 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,360 much. I really appreciate your time 989 00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:23,920 and I hope that your our conversation has given listeners 990 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,320 a lot to think about that it leaves them feeling a bit more 991 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,800 connected with their dog. Yeah, well, thank you for having 992 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:30,560 me. It was a. 993 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,840 It was really nice conversation and yeah, I'm glad you're doing 994 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:35,640 this work.