1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,480 Welcome to Just a Dog Podcast. I'm your host, Nadine. 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:05,880 In this episode I'm joined by Daniel Shaw. 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:10,240 Daniel is a dog behaviourist, educator and expert witness. 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,440 He works with dogs whose behaviour has become dangerous 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,800 or legally significant and with the people responsible for 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,640 making decisions that affect their lives. 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,440 His background is in human psychology and neuroscience, and 8 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,560 that shapes how he understands dogs. 9 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,240 So rather than treating behaviour as something to 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,400 correct, he looks at the internal conditions that 11 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,200 influence how a dog responds to the world. 12 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,840 In our conversation, we explore what behaviour actually tells 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,240 us, how aggression develops over time, and what trauma looks like 14 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,680 as a biological reality in dogs. We also talk about what changes 15 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,720 when behaviour is understood in context, including the human 16 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,760 systems and the legal frameworks that surround the dog. 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,360 This episode matters because the way that we interpret behaviour 18 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,320 influences the decisions that we make, and in Daniels world, 19 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,880 those decisions can determine whether a dog is supported, 20 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,840 restricted or destroyed. Let's begin. 21 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,120 Hi, Daniel. Hi, how are you? 22 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:16,200 I'm very well thanking yourself, so nice to meet you. 23 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,120 Yeah, so lovely to meet you. I'm good. 24 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:19,640 Thank you. Where are you based? 25 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,080 I'm in Worthing. Worthing, West Sussex. 26 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,560 Where in Kent are you? Well, Ashley, so strangely I 27 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,840 don't live in Kent anymore. I actually live in Essex. 28 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:29,920 Are you live in Kent? So that my business in Kent. 29 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:35,240 But my partner, she's a vet and she's got a job at a veterinary 30 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,120 practise that sees exotics because she likes, she's an 31 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,720 exotics vet. So we moved to Essex a few years 32 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,640 ago now and then actually in a couple of months moving to 33 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:45,840 Edinburgh. What? 34 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,040 Yeah, Oh. My gosh, what's taking you to 35 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,080 Scotland? Another of her jobs actually, 36 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:56,080 she's got an internship at the Edinburgh Vet School to sort of 37 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,080 specialised as an exotic spec. Wow sis, that's amazing that 38 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,760 you're able to go with her. Yeah, it's a fortunate thing, 39 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,160 isn't it, about what we do is at least it's sort of you can move 40 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,840 around nice and easily. Yeah, that's true. 41 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,080 Do you consult at the moment and do you do it remotely? 42 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,880 I do some, why do some in person, some remote, but I will 43 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:23,000 mainly do remote in Scotland and I see a lot of legal cases in 44 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,520 the South at the moment and there's not really anyone that 45 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,920 does either behaviour or breed type identification in Scotland. 46 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:33,240 So I'll start doing some of that for a bit. 47 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,080 Yeah. Well, they'll be very lucky to 48 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,720 have you, I'm sure. So Daniel, firstly, I'm so happy 49 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,200 to have you on the podcast. I've heard amazing things about 50 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,760 you. I'd like to understand your 51 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,520 journey and specifically your connection with dogs. 52 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,720 Yeah, I actually grew up in a dog free household. 53 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:54,120 So until I was about 16, I think 17 years old, I had never lived 54 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,040 with a dog. I didn't have much experience 55 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,440 with dogs. I actually grew up with two cats 56 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,800 for a lot of my life's, which is why you now see a cat behind me, 57 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,840 a big cat lover as well as a dog lover. 58 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,680 And actually one of my favourite things to do and support people 59 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,920 with is integrating dogs. And because I think you can have 60 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:16,280 so many fantastic combinations of canine and feline households 61 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:18,880 that can be really, really wonderful. 62 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,600 So I didn't really grow up with dogs until I was about 16 or 17 63 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:29,600 when my parents adopted a deaf border collie from not the best 64 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,800 job in terms of picking a good breeder and picking a healthy 65 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,440 dog, unfortunately. So then, you know, spent several 66 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,640 years living with and supporting this dog and sort of seeing all 67 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,920 the the challenges that she had. So not only being deaf, but also 68 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,400 being prone to some compulsive behaviours. 69 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,760 And she wouldn't necessarily describe from the stereotypies 70 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,640 due to the way they presented and supporting her with that. 71 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,800 And, and really from there, that sort of piqued my interest in 72 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,000 actually looking and thinking a little bit more deeply about 73 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,240 animal behaviour. What motivates them to behave? 74 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,000 How captivity and living alongside us, in particular for 75 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,440 dogs, effects their behaviour and effects their behavioural 76 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,880 profile and the difficulties they can have as a result of 77 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,120 that. So you know, I was actually 78 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:18,120 originally gonna go and study English at university and I used 79 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,320 to want to be an actor and then I changed course on that and 80 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,840 then went into study psychology. There were a few animal 81 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:28,240 behaviour degrees around at the time but I can't remember 82 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,200 exactly, but a few reasons I didn't want to look at them. 83 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,440 And I think another another reasons I liked the broadness of 84 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,400 psychology as a subject because of course, actually a lot of 85 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,440 what is studied and looked at in psychology comes from studying 86 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,600 animals and learning about how animals behave. 87 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,920 Oh, I didn't know that. I mean, to something, you know, 88 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,040 obviously there are some S elements that are more human 89 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,680 based, especially when we get into kind of psychotherapy and 90 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,640 counselling and, and things that come more from humans. 91 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,080 But actually there's a lot of cognitive research and things 92 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:57,880 that originated in research and animals. 93 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,120 So it's actually looking at the the sort of origins of some of 94 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:02,440 this stuff is really interesting. 95 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,840 And then there's also comparative psychology, which is 96 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:07,800 kind of then going back to looking at how animals differ 97 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,120 from humans. That's, you know, super 98 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,480 fascinating topic. And then I wanted to explore 99 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,080 that a little bit more and particularly looking at the 100 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,000 biology side. So I did a master's in 101 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,760 neuroscience. And again, with neuroscience, 102 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,600 even more so, I would say, than psychology. 103 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,720 So much of the research in neuroscience is done on animals 104 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,240 and involves animals. And actually one of the reasons 105 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,560 for that, unfortunately, is because we are prepared to do 106 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,920 less nice things to animals than we would do to other humans. 107 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,360 So again, sort of looking at all of that, using that as kind of 108 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,960 a, a way to expand my knowledge of behavioural science and how 109 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,000 how dogs and why dogs behave the way they do in our sort of 110 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,240 day-to-day life, our domestic dog in particular. 111 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,760 So I suppose that's kind of the academic sort of side of the 112 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,360 journey. And then, you know, in the 113 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,200 meantime, I was also sort of following up and doing lots of 114 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,440 others that would more dog vocational style courses as well 115 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,640 to kind of learn about how dogs learn and how to train dogs. 116 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,960 And working with dogs 'cause I spent a year working as a dog 117 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,880 Walker and then started doing some dog training and then 118 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,040 ultimately kind of moved on to doing dog behaviour work. 119 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,000 I think I was always more drawn to behaviour work in the sense 120 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,080 that I was interested in two things I suppose. 121 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:24,240 Helping people solve their problems, improving people's 122 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,600 welfare, because actually it can be really tough living with a 123 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,080 dog with behaviour problems. It can be, especially we're 124 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,600 talking aggression cases. Sometimes there's risk involved 125 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,360 as well to humans in the household. 126 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,160 And also helping dogs improve their welfare because people 127 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,320 often come at it from the point of view of here, how does this 128 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:42,600 behaviour problem affect me? But in many cases it's something 129 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,560 that's affecting the dog's welfare and well-being as well. 130 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,680 So I like to be able to work and help people in such a way that 131 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,480 we focus on both those elements and making the dog's life better 132 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,560 and also hopefully making the human's life a little bit 133 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,200 easier. So yeah. 134 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,640 And that's kind of what I've been doing for the past five 135 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,200 plus years, I think maybe 7 years now we're on 2026. 136 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:09,120 So yeah, seven years really. And yeah, I set up a business in 137 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Kent and we've also set up a online education organisation 138 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,880 for dog professionals, the Brain and Behaviour Academy. 139 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,960 So balancing my work between court of consulting and doing 140 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,160 educational stuff for other professionals, being fortunate 141 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,360 to go to a few different places recently went to the Netherlands 142 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,720 to do a seminar late last year. So yeah, lots of really exciting 143 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,160 stuff. And I think in this industry, 144 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,200 lots of amazing people in this industry. 145 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,440 And I suppose, yeah, all with that shared interest and shared 146 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,400 love of dogs. So going back when you were 147 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,760 1617, the Border Collie, what was her name? 148 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,960 Her name was Misty. Misty she the reason why you're 149 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,560 doing what you're doing today I. Would say actually seeing the 150 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,640 people work with her and seeing the the behaviours that we use 151 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,240 and the team that we use actually work with her would be 152 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,840 a part of that as well. And actually thinking about 153 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,640 behaviour and what we can do to change animals behaviour and 154 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,040 improve their welfare as a process as well and being a big 155 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,160 part of that. What kind of ideas did you have 156 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,920 about dogs up until the point where you actually lived with 157 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,760 one, and how did that change your perception of dogs in terms 158 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,600 of who they are and what they need? 159 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,160 It's a great question and I think one of the challenges is 160 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,320 really hard to retrospectively think about. 161 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,120 What did I feel about dogs beforehand? 162 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:26,880 Probably what? I probably am not the biggest 163 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,680 fan of dogs beforehand, if I'm being honest. 164 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,400 Yeah, I like dogs now. I didn't. 165 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,760 I didn't really have many interactions. 166 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,000 I'd interact with a few and actually I'd had some really 167 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,360 nice interactions with a few dogs, but I wasn't hugely 168 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:41,960 interested in So what? Changed. 169 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,840 This is the thing I find so curious. 170 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,560 What's the connection? What drives you? 171 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:48,960 What connects you to dogs? So having worked quite closely 172 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,280 with one dog, I think you, you start to see, you know, how they 173 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,640 can become that part of the family and become almost like 174 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,520 that, that level of integration that you get with a dog that's 175 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,320 so exciting and so fun to be able to go and go and walk in 176 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,200 the mornings with them, to be able to go to different 177 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,720 activities, go to friends houses with and do all this sort of 178 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,360 stuff with them. And they just become such a 179 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,280 close part of your family. And I think, you know, being 180 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:16,480 able to support people doing that in a way that supports the 181 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:23,480 welfare of dogs and ensures people are safe as well is 182 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:25,520 something I really love doing. OK. 183 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,400 So from a neuroscience perspective, how are we 184 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,960 different to dogs and dogs from us, Yeah. 185 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,000 And that's an interesting question. 186 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,240 I mean, many ways we are very similar and we're all, we're all 187 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,480 mammals. So we've all got that mammalian 188 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,320 brain that actually looks quite similar. 189 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,160 So if you put up a dog brain, you put up a human brain, they 190 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,120 look fairly similar and there's some differences you will notice 191 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,720 immediately when you look at them is the frontal cortex, 192 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,480 which is the bit that's kind of behind the forehead, behind the 193 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,640 eyes, is less developed in dogs than it is in humans. 194 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,600 So we've got this larger frontal cortex and that is generally 195 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,360 implicated in things like inhibition and controlling and 196 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,320 regulating emotions, sort of forward planning, mental time 197 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,800 travel, all these sorts of ideas that us humans are generally 198 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:11,600 quite good at being able to think, oh, what we're going to 199 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,960 do in three days. Oh, what did I do five days ago 200 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,440 and what did I have for dinner last night? 201 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:18,240 And that it's a little bit harder for a dog to kind of see 202 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,120 time in that same way that we do. 203 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:22,760 So there's some differences there. 204 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,960 And then structurally there's some differences as well. 205 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,400 Because if you look at a dog brain, you'll notice that 206 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,120 actually that's the way their spinal cord connects is quite 207 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,400 different because of the way they're structured. 208 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,160 Obviously we are kind of upright, so our spine goes and 209 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,320 our brain stem goes up into our brain here, whereas dogs kind of 210 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,520 goes into the side or most of their brain. 211 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,160 That's the best way I can describe it. 212 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,480 So if you look at that, if you look at the two brains together, 213 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,440 you'd see that that difference, there's all sorts of differences 214 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,600 in the way they kind of see in process stuff. 215 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,440 I would say also one of the interesting things I suppose 216 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,640 going on beyond perception, we can talk about perception a 217 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,400 little bit as well in terms of different visual perception down 218 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,880 to actually their eyes, I suppose technically rather than 219 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,840 their brains, but you know, different auditory perception, 220 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,280 again, down to their ears being able to hear slightly different 221 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,160 frequencies to we can hear. But actually if we look at can 222 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,440 we go beyond perception and look at actually the way they process 223 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,920 information, there is some things that we don't necessarily 224 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,400 I really know about. So we don't really know too much 225 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,320 about kind of dog sense of sort of consciousness in the sense 226 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,920 that we have as humans of kind of being aware of ourselves. 227 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,320 Generally people don't think they have a huge sense of that. 228 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,400 But again, a really difficult one to study. 229 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,360 So yeah, lots of differences that we can point to. 230 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,080 But I would say, I suppose going beyond the differences, what 231 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,400 excites me more is actually looking at the similarities 232 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,120 between dogs and humans and the dog and human brain. 233 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,120 And I think one of the biggest similarities is actually the way 234 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,280 that we process a emotions and the way that emotions present 235 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,480 themselves in the brain and the way we, we respond emotionally 236 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,920 to different stuff. Whether that be we're looking at 237 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,120 the positive emotions, looking at those experiences that we get 238 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,320 when we're with our loved ones, when we're doing something 239 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,760 exciting, when we're getting a, if we're a human, hopefully not 240 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,240 a dog, we're getting some, you know, nice snacks out of the 241 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:06,760 cupboard. If we're a dog that's broken 242 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,840 into the cupboard, maybe that's the same experience as well. 243 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,440 So those kind of positive emotions and even the more 244 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,320 negative things, our experiences of fear, our experiences of 245 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,920 discomfort, that can be really similar as well actually in 246 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,040 terms of what we're seeing in the brain about the systems 247 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,040 involved in that, the kind of the patterns of activation we 248 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,920 get as a result of those sort of emotional responses. 249 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,160 And that in a way means we are in a good place to be able to 250 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,440 really empathise with our dogs and really try to understand 251 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,840 what our dogs are going through when they are showing those 252 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,160 signs of discomfort, when they are in an experience that they 253 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:42,920 are enjoying. To be able to relate to them, be 254 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,080 able to promote those sorts of experiences, to be able to to 255 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,320 facilitate them to have and enjoy those things that they do 256 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,120 like in life as well. So I think both of those 257 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:53,960 elements are really important to look at. 258 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,200 Yeah, there are some differences. 259 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,760 There are some things that we can't expect of our dogs and 260 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,160 it's going to be unfair to expect of our dogs. 261 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,320 We can't expect them to understand if we've gone out for 262 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,880 the day and left them at home and they've urinated in the 263 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,200 house to understand if we start telling them off for that, that 264 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,880 that's trying, we're trying to punish them for a weed that 265 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,640 they've done like 4 hours ago, They're not going to be able to 266 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,360 do that. They don't understand the idea 267 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,480 of guilt. They don't understand the idea 268 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,960 of things being morally wrong in that same way. 269 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,600 Even so, I think it is important to recognise some of those 270 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,800 differences because otherwise we are sort of putting expectations 271 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,920 on our dogs that they're never going to be able to meet. 272 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,680 We also need to know about some of those similarities. 273 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:36,160 We need to know that actually, yeah, they're not some sort of 274 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,680 alien creature. They're not some sort of toy 275 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,920 that we've got in the home. They do experience emotions in a 276 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,920 similar way to we do and we need to be able to respect that and 277 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,240 support them and and support them in promoting, you know, 278 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,760 positive well-being, good emotional experiences. 279 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,240 While we are they are living this life alongside us that 280 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,080 realistically they don't really have much choice as to whether 281 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,440 they do or not either from. Your perspective during the 282 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,720 neuroscience and the psychology, once you went through that, that 283 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,120 learning process, what became really obvious for you that that 284 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,560 you just thought like this is impossible to ignore in terms of 285 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,320 our relationships and understanding of dogs probably. 286 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,520 Not something that's coming from neuroscience or psychology, but 287 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,680 actually is being aware of dog's body language. 288 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,080 I would say, you know, something as simple as actually being able 289 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,280 to read dog's body language and actually the skill that's 290 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,640 involved in that as well, because we can't expect everyone 291 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,960 to be good at it. We, you know, people like you or 292 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,640 I who spend a lot of time working with dogs and watching 293 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,000 dogs and watching dogs interact and behave and like dogs and 294 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,360 enjoy watching them. We'll see a lot of dog body 295 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,960 language and we will see it differently to someone that has 296 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,480 never engaged with a dog before or even to someone that hasn't 297 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,720 spent a lot of time observing their dog's body language 298 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,840 before. Because it takes time to 299 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,640 actually develop that skill to be able to read and understand 300 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,880 the body language and the sort of emotional expression through 301 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,040 the use of their body, the use of their eyes, the use of their 302 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,760 facial expressions of another species. 303 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,480 It's not something we come naturally able to do very 304 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,720 effectively. Now there are some things that 305 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,120 we pick up on pretty naturally. Most people, I would say if a 306 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,520 dog's, you know, got their towel tucked under looking really, 307 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,880 really scary is back. You know, that really scared 308 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,040 facial expression probably would have a good chance of guessing 309 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:22,800 that a dog's. Yeah, really scared in that 310 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,520 situation. And maybe the other way round as 311 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,800 well, depending on if there's someone that's, you know, not 312 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,560 too nervous around. Dogs can see when a dog's 313 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,960 looking really, you know, happy, enjoying themselves, relaxed, 314 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,160 but sort of the nuance in between that, you know, some of 315 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,960 those early signs of discomfort, again, some of those and the 316 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,360 complexity of social interaction as well. 317 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,040 And you know, a dog going from being able to enjoy something to 318 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,600 maybe getting a little bit over excited to get into the point 319 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,120 where they're actually starting to feel a little bit 320 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,480 uncomfortable with another dog to wanting a little bit of a 321 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,280 break. Being able to sort of observe 322 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,160 and interpret all those different elements of a social 323 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,440 interaction takes time and it's a skill that does need to be 324 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,720 developed. So I think that's something I 325 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,560 think is the most important and it does seem obvious once you 326 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,560 know and are good at reading dog's body language. 327 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,600 But we have to remember actually what we see as experienced 328 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,000 people are familiar with watching dogs is different to 329 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,040 what an inexperienced person sees. 330 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,520 And we can't expect them to be able to see that straightaway. 331 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,840 We can't just go into a client consultation, for instance, say, 332 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,840 look, here's dog body language, a sheet down of dog, different 333 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,320 dog expressions and postures and say and expect them to 334 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:35,920 understand this. They need to spend that time 335 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,720 observing it. They need to spend time with you 336 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,200 helping them observe it to actually develop that skill 337 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,400 because it does take some time and it is a skill that takes 338 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,160 time and and effort to to develop really. 339 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,160 And they won't be able to even see necessarily some of that 340 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:52,640 nuance. Facial expressions, we can 341 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,360 describe them, but we can't always fully explain what we are 342 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,480 seeing. It's like if you, you know, see 343 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,560 someone that reads music or someone that can do a skill like 344 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,760 that, that actually takes that kind of development. 345 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,480 It's really. Interesting through a psychology 346 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,319 lens, in terms of us being able to name how we feel and 347 00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:14,000 therefore how accurate we are at being able to do that, does that 348 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,240 potentially increase our chances of being able to identify 349 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,480 feelings in other the beings or in other human beings? 350 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,400 You know what I mean? Like having that range of 351 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,640 vocabulary, Yeah. So yeah, we've got vocabulary, 352 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,119 right? We've, we've got, you know, if 353 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,880 you open a dictionary or open a psychology textbook, even, you 354 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,480 know, you can look at all these different emotions, all these 355 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,040 different feelings. And there's a slight difference 356 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:37,720 between feelings and emotions as well. 357 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,600 So emotions generally we're talking about the processes 358 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,080 going on in the brain, whereas feelings are how we perceive 359 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,640 those processes. So for example, you know, we've 360 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,440 got a bear running towards us that's going to set off a fear 361 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,360 centre in our or a threat centre in our brain, a region called 362 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,040 our amygdala is likely to activate amongst other things 363 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,640 and say up we need to get a bit worried about this because we 364 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,720 need to do something about this because there is a bear 365 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,200 approaching you quite quickly. And, and then our interpretation 366 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,000 of that, we might interpret that saying, see this bear 367 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,880 approaching me, I'm starting to feel uncomfortable. 368 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,560 I'm starting to feel all these processes going off. 369 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,000 I'm starting to feel a bit scared. 370 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,640 So actually that that feeling scared and labelling that as 371 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,240 scared is a interpretation of that emotion. 372 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,480 But you might actually have some one that responds quite 373 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,360 differently in that situation is just doesn't even feel fearful 374 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,080 straightaway, just goes into kind of like an action mode. 375 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,120 And it's just very, very sort of confident in their ability to 376 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:31,200 deal with that. And again, that's similar 377 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,680 emotions going on threat responses, right? 378 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,480 But the actual way they label that feeling might differ. 379 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,640 So yeah, the slightly different process. 380 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,280 And in terms of dogs, whether that helps us interpret them or 381 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,400 not, I think it's, it's perhaps a bit of a double edged sword in 382 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:51,000 the sense that, yeah, we we do have lots of labels for 383 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,120 different emotions. But again, I think like I was 384 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,960 talking about earlier, there are those cases where where someone 385 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,800 maybe applies quite an anthropomorphic lens, so quite a 386 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,640 human centred lens interpreting their dog's behaviour, saying, 387 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,560 oh, they're feeling really guilty or oh, he's just wanting 388 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,160 to annoy me. Or he's just, you know, he's 389 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,360 really pleased with himself because he's done urinating the 390 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:13,880 house, to use that example again. 391 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,880 So that's potentially the downside of that. 392 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,440 And ultimately we do have to be, I suppose, cognizant of our own 393 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:25,200 dogs behaviour and reactions and feelings around different 394 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,400 situations and actually track that to try and understand them 395 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,960 as a whole and understand what sort of circumstances do they 396 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,960 tend to do well in what sort of circumstances do they struggle 397 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:36,680 in. Because then we can start using 398 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,160 the context to inform us as well about how our dog might be 399 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,640 feeling and how our dog might be coping with a given situation. 400 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,480 So yeah, we can take it. We can start really taking a lot 401 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,800 into account to be able to say actually, I'm going to look at 402 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,880 the dog's body language. I'm going to take into account 403 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,880 the context. I can even look at some 404 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,400 physiological parameters like their respiration rate, what 405 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,400 their eyes are doing, if their pupils are dilated or not, all 406 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,560 sorts of things to really start to try and understand what's 407 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,160 going on for our dogs in a given situation. 408 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,520 What? Are some of the typical or more 409 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,600 frequent, more common examples of inexperienced people 410 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,280 identifying certain behaviours in dogs that perhaps is more 411 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,800 harmful than helpful? Yeah, suppose it's things that 412 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,400 many, many of you or many of your listeners might have come 413 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,200 across. If, if for those of the those 414 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,920 are your listeners that are professionals and working in 415 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,480 consults. So sometimes it's things like 416 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,360 really big one that's I would say maybe die down a little bit 417 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:34,640 now is sort of the old idea of dogs wanting to take over the 418 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,720 household. The sort of dominance theory in 419 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,480 practise, this idea that dogs are looking to be alpha dog 420 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,040 within the human household and therefore will do things like 421 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,240 jumping on the sofa or going through doorways first in order 422 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,080 to establish that kind of ranking in the pack. 423 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:55,360 But there's no evidence to say that enforcing this idea that we 424 00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:58,200 are top dog over our dogs is firstly going to help with any 425 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,520 behaviour problems or make any difference to your life with 426 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,280 your dog. And in fact, actually it's often 427 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,040 some of those recommendations are risking behavioural fallout. 428 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,840 You know, like things like alpha rolling or being very punitive 429 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,520 towards your dog could all risk behavioural fallout. 430 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,440 And actually, you could dog. You could have a dog that ends 431 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,160 up in a worse position as a result of that than before. 432 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,480 I know that you work with severe aggression cases when you 433 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,440 consider the context of the stress bucket. 434 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,200 These types of incidents don't happen in ISIL what are some 435 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,360 signals that people should look out for to avoid or prevent 436 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,520 things escalating to get to a point where the dog feels 437 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,000 there's no other choice but to make it abundantly clear that 438 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,120 they are upset Whether. It's aggression, whether it's in 439 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,400 panic response, whether it's the dog running to run away, 440 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,040 becoming very reactive. There's all sorts of different 441 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,160 ways that that might present itself. 442 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,120 And that kind of idea of the stress bucket, it's not one I 443 00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:56,080 use so much the stress bucket analogy. 444 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,840 But I think if I'm right in saying, my understanding is that 445 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,240 is essentially each, you know, these little experiences 446 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,640 building up, sort of filling up this bucket and then that bucket 447 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,200 overflows. You know, maybe even kind of an 448 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,360 innocuous seeming event that the dog would normally cope with. 449 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,240 Just seems to be is unfortunately the one that 450 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,200 pushes that bucket kind of over the top. 451 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,320 And then the dog is, you know, reacts and and we've got a bad 452 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,120 situation is, is that's the kind of the idea. 453 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:19,840 Right? Yeah. 454 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,360 And so from the physiological perspective, actually this 455 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:27,160 matches up really well to what's going on inside the dog's body. 456 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,280 So we know the dog got this stress axis called or as humans 457 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,120 do as well called the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal 458 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:35,000 axis. And that is basically an axis 459 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,680 that sends a message from, you know, our perceptual senses in 460 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,720 our brain. First they identify a potential 461 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,640 stressor in the environment. So it might be, you know, 462 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,920 stressor one, right? We're walking down the street, 463 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,720 we see another dog across the road. 464 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,040 That's, that's a little bit tough for us to deal with, but 465 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,520 we cope really, we manage it. But that causes our HPA access 466 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,560 to send a message from our brain to our and pituitary gland, then 467 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,600 to our adrenal gland, which it's just above our kidneys, which 468 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,480 then releases glucocorticoids or which is kind of an umbrella 469 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,720 term for a bunch of hormones on different animals. 470 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,000 And, but in dogs and humans, the glucocorticoid we use is 471 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,720 cortisol. So releases cortisol into our 472 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,720 bloodstream. So we see that one dog, right, 473 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,040 get this chain of reaction. A little bit of course, cell 474 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,800 goes into our bloodstream or into our dog's bloodstream and 475 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,440 we carry on, we manage to cope with it, right. 476 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,960 But we've got a little bit of an elevation in that cortisol. 477 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,640 And then we go on and maybe see something else we don't like 478 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,760 someone with a big hat on, big shopping bags, whatever it might 479 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,880 be. And then again, that cortisol 480 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,760 goes up a little bit more. And then what that does as a 481 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,920 result, as that cortisol increases and increases. 482 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,320 And if we're not giving it time to recover and go back down to 483 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,760 baseline, which takes a little bit of time, not a massive 484 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,280 amount of time. Some people were like say, oh, 485 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,040 you need like 48 hours to get your cortisol back down to 486 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,200 baseline. You don't. 487 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,080 You need a couple of hours and a couple of hours without 488 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,080 additional stresses being presented. 489 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,960 So with a bit of time for that Corso go to go back down to 490 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,040 baseline, if that time isn't given, we then keep building up 491 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,560 that cortisone. And what that cortisone does by 492 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,120 building up in our system is it actually interacts with 493 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:07,160 different regions of our brain. And it can make a specifically a 494 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,400 region of our brain, I think I mentioned earlier called the 495 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,800 amygdala, which is involved as kind of detecting threats. 496 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,520 It kind of functions as like the fire alarm of our brain, the 497 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,200 smoke alarm if you're in America and essentially kind of let's 498 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,480 off that signal. There's a potential for danger 499 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,560 sends a signal to the rest of our brain. 500 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,480 So we need to panic, we need to get ready to deal with this 501 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,400 potential mutual threat and what having cortisol in our system 502 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,240 does essentially makes that amygdala more reactive. 503 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,000 It's kind of like it increases the sensitivity of our amygdala. 504 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,160 So that's what's happening physiologically. 505 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,200 When we talk about the stress bucket at cortisol was 506 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,320 increasing, amygdala is getting ready to react and getting more 507 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,440 sensitive, which means as as we have more and more and more 508 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,560 negative experiences, tough experiences, the dogs struggling 509 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,120 to cope, you may not see the dog struggling to cope with it. 510 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,440 We may not have a reaction, but as a result of going through 511 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,800 those experiences, that dog might be becoming more likely to 512 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,880 react to a future thing because their major is becoming more 513 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,400 sensitive and they're more likely to have a negative 514 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,480 emotional reaction in your. Experience. 515 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,920 What are some ways that dogs communicate frustration? 516 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,720 Frustration. Is a tricky issue and it's 517 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,640 something a lot of dogs struggle with because a lot of dogs 518 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,800 again, when we talked about this idea of dogs living in 519 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,360 captivity, right a lot of dogs don't have access to all the 520 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:27,200 things they would want to do in a free ranging environment and 521 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,120 we have to try and make sure we provide that. 522 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,200 So that's step one actually is making sure we're meeting our 523 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,480 dogs needs properly, making sure they're having the opportunity 524 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,440 to eat and drink in a way that meets their natural needs. 525 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,600 So being able to have a variety of food. 526 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,800 I always think it's really important not just being stuck 527 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,520 on one boring food their whole life because unfortunately as 528 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,520 much as we can, you know, regardless of debates around 529 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,160 diet and nutrition and what the best diet is for a dog, right? 530 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,480 If you could imagine having like the ultimate smoothie, right, of 531 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,200 healthy human smoothie and used to drink this every morning, 532 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,280 every evening, you'll be as healthy as you can be, right? 533 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,560 We'd get bored of that quite quickly, right? 534 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,520 We'd be like, yeah, I want something else now. 535 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,320 Same for dogs, actually making sure even things like just their 536 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,520 eating is we're offering that variety, that natural variety 537 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,680 that dogs would have because they have evolved as scavengers. 538 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,800 They're omnivores, right? They scavenge. 539 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,120 They potentially hunt as well. Free ranging dogs don't tend to 540 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:24,040 be massive hunters, you know, potentially hunting as well. 541 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,560 There's all sorts of variety in their diet. 542 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,120 We know actually, I can't remember the exact figure, I 543 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,320 think maybe around 20%, something like that of a free 544 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,880 ranging dog's diet is often about other animals, faeces. 545 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,640 So, you know, there's a lot of variety. 546 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,360 I'm not surprised. Yeah, I'm not surprised. 547 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:42,280 Yeah, so. Thinking about again those core 548 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,520 needs, so the ability to explore new spaces again that they're 549 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,320 using their nose. We know they've got this amazing 550 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,240 using nose, they're olfactory bulb and I think I'm right in 551 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,320 saying I would have to double check this because this is just 552 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,360 literally just off the top of my head, but I think it's about 40 553 00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:59,920 times the size of ours as humans. 554 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,160 So they're the centre for in their brain that's involved in 555 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,200 processing olfactory information is about 40 times the size of 556 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,640 ours. Their olfactory world is next 557 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,760 level olfaction being sensory smells, so sensor. 558 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,760 So each sensory modality, whether it be eyes, ears, nose 559 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,000 has a brain region that's involved in processing that 560 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,480 information. So it kind of the decoder of 561 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,080 that visual auditory. Our factory information is that 562 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,440 their olfactory bulb that is really huge. 563 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,880 So actually making sure we're providing our factory 564 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,920 opportunities for them and actually going with making sure 565 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,240 we're going beyond food with that as well, because we can get 566 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,080 very caught up in food puzzles here, sniffing, you know, 567 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:40,560 scatter feeding treats, all these sorts of things, which are 568 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,120 great for some dogs. But we also need to make sure 569 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,120 we're given the opportunity to smell all sorts of different 570 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:48,920 sensory experiences in the world, not just food base. 571 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,080 There's so many smells out there, you know, different 572 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,960 foliage, different animal scents and things to smell all, you 573 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,720 know, different surfaces, different terrains, things at 574 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,320 different levels as well. Because if you start noticing it 575 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,560 and thinking about it, we'll see that actually different levels 576 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,560 have that give access to different smells. 577 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,600 Let's do different terrains, let's do different sort of 578 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,160 locations. So actually making sure they're 579 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,600 getting the opportunity to do that. 580 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,160 And really one of the best opportunities to do that is, is 581 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,640 whilst out on walks, being able to go and sniff and being able 582 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,360 to check out different spaces and often new spaces can be 583 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:23,080 really good for that because that's where the dog might be 584 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,440 less familiar with some of those local scents as well. 585 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,720 So yeah, we're thinking about kind of movement, exploration, 586 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,000 all those sorts of things to really enrich their lives and 587 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,840 meet their needs. Another really big one is of 588 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,080 course dogs social needs. They have very, very social 589 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:43,040 animals and they do tend to love humans, but I think it's really 590 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,880 important for dogs to actually be able to interact with another 591 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,560 member of their own species and actually do that in a way that's 592 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,240 not sort of uncontrolled and sporadic. 593 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,720 Again, if you think of humans like we don't like to just, if 594 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,640 our only interaction with other humans was just being thrown 595 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,600 into like a busy party with full of people we didn't know, that's 596 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,120 not the same as seeing your best friend every couple of weeks to 597 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,880 hang out and do something nice. It's a completely different 598 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,320 experience. So actually having long standing 599 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,560 friend is really important for dogs. 600 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,680 And again, we often have to, as humans facilitate that. 601 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,120 They don't have the option to be able to go, go out, just leave 602 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,480 the house, go and make a friend, go and get a cup of coffee with 603 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:22,840 their friend on their own, do they? 604 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,840 So we've got to facilitate that. So when we talk about 605 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,360 frustration, that's always a key place to start actually making 606 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,280 sure we're meeting the dog's needs properly. 607 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,000 And just to define frustration and conscious that I haven't 608 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,160 actually explained what it is and generally what we're talking 609 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,920 about when we think about frustration, it's a when a dog 610 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,080 has decided to do something, when an animal has decided to do 611 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,880 something and something interferes with that goal. 612 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,960 So it might be they've seen another dog they want to 613 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,560 interact with and they start lunging and barking on the lead 614 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:50,920 to try and interact with that dog. 615 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,040 The lead Us as humans, we are the frustrator in that scenario. 616 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,320 We are stopping them going up to that dog and saying hello to 617 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,240 them, which the other dog may or may not appreciate. 618 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,000 We don't know in this situation. So and of course, sometimes we 619 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,320 need to stop our dogs from doing that because we know a lot of 620 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,240 dogs don't appreciate random dogs running up to them. 621 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,480 But if we've got a dog whose social needs we are meeting, 622 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,320 well, that's going to decrease the chances of that occurring. 623 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,480 And and frustration can often result in what's known as sort 624 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,280 of redirected behaviours as well. 625 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,520 So that can sometimes be things like biting the lead, becoming 626 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,520 quite explosive on lead, becoming hard to manage on lead. 627 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,800 Often what I see in dogs that are quite socially frustrated. 628 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,960 Yeah, being aware of that and trying to actually start with as 629 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,280 a kind of a starting point, thinking about how we meet our 630 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,840 dogs needs. And so those things that they 631 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,480 see, you know, another dog, another random dog across the 632 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,080 park is going to be much less valuable if you're having lots 633 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,760 of time to interact with a regular friend, regular dog 634 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,760 friend that you see on a regular basis. 635 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,400 So you're not really socially frustrated. 636 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,520 I. Don't think that there are many 637 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,960 experiences or occasions where dogs are able to just go and 638 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,360 meet each other. Or you go on a Facebook group 639 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,760 and you say, hey, I'm looking for a friend from my dog. 640 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,240 Obviously there's so much to choose from and it's very risky 641 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,520 picking someone knowing that your dog's going to be safe and 642 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,920 that your dog's going to like hanging out with that dog. 643 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,680 What are some ways that you would recommend that people do 644 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:16,960 this safely? So I. 645 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,040 Think you know? If you're not sure, reaching out 646 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,760 to a trainer can be a really good help. 647 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,440 Ideally a positive reinforcement based trainer who's not going to 648 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,680 do anything nasty to your dog that might risk behavioural 649 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,720 fallout. And when I say nasty, you know, 650 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,400 things like that might cause pain or discomfort as a means to 651 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,880 train your dog. So that could be a good place to 652 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,000 start. But I think, you know, you want 653 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,800 to ideal is if it's someone you know or someone you regularly 654 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,240 interact with, because then you've got a relationship with 655 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,080 the person to be able to facilitate that as well and just 656 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,400 setting things up in a Safeway. So in the UK there's lots of 657 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,320 secure fields that you can hire which are really, really good 658 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,480 sort of dog fields. Often, you know, hire them for 659 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,320 an hour and you get a nice space to be able to take your dog and 660 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,040 that's a great take place to meet a friend's dog. 661 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,720 If you're not sure about the dog, if you're not sure how 662 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,920 things are going to go, some of those secure fields actually 663 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,400 have like barriers at the entrance. 664 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,160 So you can do a barrier controlled introduction to start 665 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,160 off with and see how things are looking through there. 666 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,880 If we're getting a lot of barking, then that can sometimes 667 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,680 be an issue. We know a lot of dogs are more 668 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,120 likely to react unleashed, so we try to go for off leash 669 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,480 introductions where possible. And a barrier is sometimes a 670 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,320 really good way to be able to make an off leash introduction 671 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,560 safe so we can meet off leash into dogs are going to run away 672 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,160 because they're in a secure field and they can feel free in 673 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,080 their movements. And again, if you're not sure, 674 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,640 we can also look at things like muzzles when we get to that 675 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,440 first level of introduction. Actually having one of the dogs 676 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,600 on a muzzle might not be too obtrusive for them if they've 677 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:41,960 been trained to wear the muzzles. 678 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,280 So it's not a distressing thing for them and can be something 679 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:46,640 really valuable to look at as well. 680 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,880 So there's, yeah, there's lots you can do to kind of up the 681 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,960 safety there. And again, that's where being 682 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,280 able to read dog body language is important as well. 683 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,000 So you can recognise if you're seeing signs of discomfort, 684 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,040 signs of 1 dog maybe feeling a little bit harassed by the other 685 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,040 dog. Sometimes you get one dog whose 686 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,960 energy isn't quite a good match for the other dog. 687 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,200 You've got another dog whose energy is a bit lower and you've 688 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,840 got a dog who's got very high energy. 689 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,200 Sometimes those dogs get unwell, but sometimes they need like 690 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,800 breaks from each other as well. And again, a secure field can be 691 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,080 good because you can take one of the dogs out of the field or out 692 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,880 into a different section of the field and then give them a 693 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,840 little break. And if they start wanting to go 694 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,160 back and seeking out the other dog again, then you know that 695 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,920 they are interested in continuing that interaction 696 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,880 have. You met any dogs that are just 697 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,240 not social at all? Yeah, and that's another thing 698 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,840 that we have to consider that individual variation. 699 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,000 And it's kind of like I describe it as like a bell curve, right. 700 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,760 So at the top end and the bottom end or the either extreme end, 701 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,680 we've got dogs that are hyper social dogs that want to just 702 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,600 meet and say hello to every single dog they meet. 703 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,800 There's no dog they don't want to say hello to. 704 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,560 And however many dogs they meet, they're always going to want to 705 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,120 say hello to the next dog. And then we've got dogs on the 706 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,560 other end that actually are hypo social. 707 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,280 So not very interested at all in meeting other dogs. 708 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,040 Sometimes I meet dogs, you know, they'll have maybe another dog 709 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,360 they live with that they get along with very well. 710 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,960 But in general, you know that they, they don't like other 711 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,199 dogs. They're not comfortable around 712 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,159 other dogs. Sometimes, more often than not, 713 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:14,719 I would say there's, there's a specific reason for that. 714 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,440 Sometimes it's that they have had a bad experience with 715 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,960 another dog, particularly at a younger age, and that's made 716 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,960 them very cautious around other dogs. 717 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,360 Sometimes it can be things like they had the dogs actually in 718 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,320 pain and that's meaning that they're not comfortable 719 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,679 interacting with unknown dogs because they're worried that 720 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:31,800 they're going to hurt themselves. 721 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,360 So sometimes there's actually an underlying reason for a dog not 722 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,719 wanting to interact with other dogs. 723 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,840 And if that hasn't been, particularly if we're talking 724 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,920 about pain, actually, that might be something that needs to be 725 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,719 addressed to help the dog feel more comfortable. 726 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,960 So, yeah, and then in the middle we've got, as I say a bell curve 727 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,800 kind of the majority of dogs are probably somewhere in the middle 728 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,920 of that and have dogs they like interacting with, have dogs they 729 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,320 don't like interacting with. Generally a more friendly to 730 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,360 their friends and regular regular friends and regular sort 731 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,040 of dogs they see on walks but aren't quite so over the top 732 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,760 with every single dog they meet when. 733 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,520 You were talking about dogs having had negative previous 734 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,280 experiences. Does does trauma show up in the 735 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,840 brain in in dogs? So yeah, if we're talking about 736 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:18,040 psychological trauma, yeah. And it can lead to changes in 737 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,880 the brain and how the brain functions and in a few different 738 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,960 ways. And that can sometimes mean that 739 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,000 the dog needs time to recover and for their brain to kind of 740 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,200 heal from that and so to speak. And for example, what one 741 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,000 example of this is there's a region of the brain called the 742 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,440 hippocampus, and that is involved in encoding new 743 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,560 memories and helping the dog learn about new experiences and 744 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,280 actually high levels of stress. So chronic stress exposure can 745 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,720 actually lead to damage to the dendrites, which are the ends of 746 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:51,240 the neurons in the hippocampus. The neurons being the little 747 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:54,600 brain cells at the end of them, they receive incoming 748 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,840 information from their dendrites, which like branches 749 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,840 of a tree and those branches get damaged and sort of less de 750 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,480 expands. So probably a better term for 751 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,560 it, but withdraw and don't don't function so well as a result of 752 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,240 chronic stress. So that's, you know, just one 753 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,160 example of how trauma can affect the brain. 754 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,640 And, and when we remove that stressor and when we give that 755 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,800 animal some time away from that stressor, we can often see 756 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,520 recovery as well from on that front and the brain actually 757 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,920 starting to function and hippocampus in this example, in 758 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,240 this example, starting to function better and more 759 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:33,480 effectively again. But it takes some time. 760 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,240 Often these things take time. And actually we have to 761 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:39,040 recognise actually sometimes doing nothing and not actively, 762 00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:41,960 you know, working on a really complex behaviour modification 763 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,360 protocol, just managing your dog stress, managing their 764 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,760 day-to-day life to make sure that having lots of good days is 765 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,120 a really important part of helping that dog recover from 766 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,280 something like a psychological trauma in. 767 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,800 A dog's everyday life. What are some ways that stress 768 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,720 shows up that might not immediately be obvious to a 769 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,720 human being so. Yeah, stress is both the 770 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:04,160 positive and the negative thing in the sense that, you know, if 771 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,680 a dog goes in place with their friends, that is more stress 772 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,160 than just sitting at home, right? 773 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,720 It's more demands on the body, just being out playing with 774 00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:15,840 friends versus being asleep in their bed, right? 775 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,000 And that doesn't necessarily mean that being out playing with 776 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,040 friends is a bad thing. Doesn't that stress isn't a bad 777 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:22,480 thing. The dogs probably enjoying it, 778 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,320 having a good time, but there's more stress on their bodies. 779 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,840 So what we need to think about when we're thinking about 780 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,120 stress, we don't need to whether it be good, whether it be bad 781 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,480 stress, right, whether it be playing with friends or whether 782 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,560 it be spooking at someone they saw on a walk, right? 783 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,520 Whatever type of stress we're dealing with, I think the most 784 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,880 important thing to be aware of is we do need recovery time from 785 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,480 that stress. We need time for that. 786 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,280 Going back to the stress bucket example you mentioned, for that 787 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,440 bucket to drain, right, and the animal to recover, then that 788 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,360 coping capacity goes back to baseline and that's where a 789 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,400 couple of hours I think is a good benchmark to at least start 790 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,120 with that. Taking your dog home, giving 791 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,680 them some space to be able to do something like having a snooze, 792 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,840 having a rest can be a really good way to recover from stress. 793 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,600 A lot of dogs really struggle with the fact they live in busy 794 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,400 households and there's lots of movements, lots of action in 795 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,720 that household and being able to have recovery time where humans 796 00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:19,080 actually, we all make an effort to kind of be a little bit more 797 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,880 still. We're not moving around so much. 798 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,680 The dogs not having to be like, where are you, where are you, 799 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:23,800 where are you going, where are you going now? 800 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,240 And can be really valuable for some dogs. 801 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,760 So actually being able to sit with them, being able to take a 802 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,320 moment to actively say, you know, I'm going to sit here for 803 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:32,840 an hour. You know, you can watch TV or 804 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,720 something, you can read a book. But actually taking some time 805 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:38,880 out for ourselves to take a moment to give our dog that 806 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,040 recovery time they might need and they might struggle to get 807 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,760 if we start running about the place doing other jobs. 808 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,640 Yeah, that makes perfect sense. But what about the flip side? 809 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,960 So I've been thinking about this a lot lately, especially with my 810 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,200 dog. Because I'm in a single home. 811 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,560 It's mostly quiet. I'm lucky that I work from home, 812 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:02,040 umm and I find that she has plenty of time for decompressing 813 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,640 and resting and all that kind of stuff. 814 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,840 In fact I worry often that she might be bored. 815 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,760 And I do think I'm starting to identify boredom behaviours. 816 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,480 Even though we do in Richmond, go on a nice long walk in the 817 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,000 mornings, we've got walk in the afternoon, we do like, you know, 818 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,400 kibble sniffs on the grass. I try and do as much as I can, 819 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,120 but at some point I realise that perhaps because of her breed 820 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,720 type might not be efficient stimulation for what she 821 00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,160 actually needs. So yeah, how, how, how would you 822 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:37,680 identify boredom in dogs and how can you ensure that your dog is 823 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,200 as stimulated as can be a good? Place to start with this is 824 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,720 thinking about what a natural activity budget should look like 825 00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:48,120 for a dog, right? How much of A 24 hour period 826 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,920 should that dog be awake moving around? 827 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,160 How much should they be sleeping? 828 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,360 And she if you look at free work on free dogs, they spend a lot 829 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,480 of their 24 hours sleeping tends to be between about sort of 14 830 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,920 and 16 hours reports in some cases, right. 831 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,800 So that's that's a starting. Point and, and, and remember 832 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,320 that when we're talking about sleeping, we're talking about 833 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,400 kind of short resting periods throughout the day when the dog 834 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,720 is taking a break, not moving. We're not just necessarily 835 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:17,800 talking about overnight in one block in the way that humans do. 836 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,240 And so lots of resting. Here's one thing. 837 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,560 And then that movement, I think movement generally comes to 838 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,520 about 3 hours of moving time, right? 839 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,520 And that's again, thinking about if you think about moving around 840 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,600 the house, moving to go out, to go to the toilet, going in 841 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,800 different going for their walk as well. 842 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,440 Of course, this is where actually, if you're a starting 843 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,960 point that can be really valuable is actually looking at 844 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,800 an activity tracker for your dog. 845 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,640 So we can actually work out what your dog's activity budget is 846 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,320 looking like in relation to something like a free ranging 847 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:48,840 dog. So thinking about that kind of 848 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,360 budget, thinking about how is this looking in relation to my 849 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,440 dog? Do we need to give the dog more 850 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,120 opportunities to be able to move around? 851 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,200 Do we need to set up some more experiences and for the dog that 852 00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,920 might sort of facilitate that as well. 853 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,640 And I think the other thing to say with when we're talking 854 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,240 about movement is a lot of that movement is regular, but not 855 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:09,960 higher arousal movement, those higher arousal, higher energy 856 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,920 level movements like play and predation games as well. 857 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,080 If you talk about in terms of free ranging dogs, there was a 858 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,440 study on free ranging dogs that I think they had one reported 859 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,920 predation incident in the whole study that in terms of these 860 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,240 dogs they were looking at. So you know, predation and 861 00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:28,600 chasing things very fast is not very common. 862 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,240 So when we're talking about movement, we're talking about 863 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:34,120 lower arousal, regular kind of movement, moving around, going 864 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,480 around different spaces, not going at a particular fast pace. 865 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,240 And the challenge we get with a lot of dogs is because they are 866 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,920 spending a lot of their time in the house and then suddenly 867 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,240 going outdoors for their half an hour walk. 868 00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:48,440 Suddenly then they're very excited and very highly aroused 869 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,240 on the lead because they're like, yeah, this is my half an 870 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:52,960 hour and I want to get all my days worth of movement in. 871 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,440 But actually, sometimes having the opportunity to kind of be in 872 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,840 a space where they can kind of move around, they can then kind 873 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,320 of stop and have a break and then move around again and again 874 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,480 and sort of, you know, have those regular breaks and sort of 875 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,520 budget it on a more gradually paced level is really, really 876 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,240 good. And that's where I think if 877 00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:11,400 you're struggling, can look at things like hiring dog fields, 878 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,200 things like that, where we can just kind of give our dogs 879 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,920 autonomy to do what they want. We're not saying we're going on 880 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,200 a walk, we're going on this specific route, but we just say, 881 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,000 actually, you can do what you want in this space. 882 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,000 You can go off, you can go and run around. 883 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,400 You can go and look at different things. 884 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,120 You can have a break, you can sit on the floor, you can relax, 885 00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:28,200 you can come back and hang out in the car for a bit. 886 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,280 And if that's what and sort of extra bit to your day looks like 887 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,520 bringing like some work to do in the car and just being able to 888 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,280 let your dog go and make their own decisions where you half 889 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,800 supervise them. As long as it's a secure space 890 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,720 and you know they're going to be safe, that might be a really 891 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:46,240 good thing that we can actually do to actually start giving our 892 00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:49,320 dogs that opportunity to have that lower level movement 893 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,280 opportunities within the home. Yeah. 894 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,240 Yeah, I've never thought about taking my computer and doing 895 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,880 some work in a dog field, but I do take her into a dog field at 896 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,440 least once a week. But yeah, what what about some 897 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,360 kind of mental, mental enrichment activities that when, 898 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,840 when I think of enrichment, please pardon my ignorance in 899 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,840 this area, I'm not not a professional. 900 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,000 But like when I think about enrichment, it's like, OK, we're 901 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,920 gonna do enrichment now and then, you know, dedicate X 902 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,680 amount of time. Like especially in your working 903 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,040 day, lunch break, maybe where you're like, OK, 1520 minutes 904 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,520 we're gonna do, I'm gonna put some kibble in a towel and roll 905 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,520 it up And you, you, you're gonna try and sniff it out and get a 906 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,240 little reward at the end. All of these are pre planned. 907 00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:34,680 It's all set up or any kind of enrichment activities that you 908 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,280 don't necessarily have to make time for, but that you can like, 909 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,200 I don't know, put throughout your home so that your dog is 910 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,200 constantly stimulated. Not constantly, but can be 911 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,560 stimulated by the environment even if it means they're not 912 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,360 going outside. I don't know if I've thought out 913 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:52,880 that question properly. Yes. 914 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,040 I suppose the only thing I can think of that I wouldn't 915 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,640 recommend anyone puts around their home is something like a 916 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,000 fur bow, right? To to sort of throw out treats 917 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,200 every 30 minutes. So the doggy then goes running 918 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,080 between like two or three fur bows to check whether they've 919 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,840 spat out a tree. But I, I wouldn't necessarily 920 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,160 recommend that because you would have been have a dog that's 921 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,400 constantly not seeking mode, looking for sort of further 922 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,880 engagement and, and, and food stimulation when actually, and 923 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,880 that would actually impact their ability to be able to 924 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,880 decompress, be able to relax, be able to get enough sleep. 925 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,280 And then that actually might, you might then have a dog that 926 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,200 struggles to regulate themselves more and actually struggles more 927 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,400 because they aren't getting enough sleep because they're 928 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,480 constantly kind of seeking the next thing out. 929 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,160 And I think that's a general thing, you know, when we're 930 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,440 thinking about enrichment, have to be a bit careful because 931 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,840 again, if we go back to free ranging dog, think about what 932 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,000 sort of enrichment would naturally come for them. 933 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,320 Really things like a puzzle where they have to kind of flip 934 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,440 open things and move something around and then unlock something 935 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,640 else and then access the food. Generally, once they've found 936 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,680 the food, it's quite easy to be able to consume that food. 937 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,160 It's more looking like the different ways you dissect and 938 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,080 the ways you kind of lick that little, you know, yoghurt pot or 939 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,560 whatever you might be exploring. So actually looking at things 940 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,000 where the dog kind of finds that and actually can just enjoy 941 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,960 consuming that food for what it is, I think it's quite valuable. 942 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,560 Not something where the dog has to spend ages trying to act. 943 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,560 They can see the food, but they've got to spend ages trying 944 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,800 to access it or knocking A wobbly thing over to spit out, 945 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,040 you know, one bit of kibble every two minutes. 946 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:25,880 But actually something that's going to take them a little bit 947 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,320 a while will actually consume and dissect that food as their 948 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,120 teeth are designed for them to be able to do. 949 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,840 So that's where chews, bones, things like that are really, 950 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:34,920 really valuable. I. 951 00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:38,640 Would love to learn a bit more about your work. 952 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,400 You're, you're an expert witness, Is that correct? 953 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:42,320 Yes. Yeah. 954 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,480 So in what? How, how, how does that work to 955 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,400 a layman? Like what does that mean and 956 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:48,920 what does that involve? Yeah. 957 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:54,200 So in the UK there are, we have the Dangerous Dogs Act, we've 958 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,680 got a few different animal related laws and dog related 959 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,000 laws. The biggest one I interact with 960 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,160 is the Dangerous Dogs Act. There's also things like the 961 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,560 Dogs Act fusingly different to the Dangerous Dogs Act and the 962 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,880 Animals Act, but the Dangerous Dogs Act 1990 21 under which if 963 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,400 a dog is considered also under section three of which if a 964 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,920 dog's considered considered to be dangerously out of control in 965 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,160 a public space, that dog can be seized by the police and 966 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:23,320 potentially put to sleep. And as a result of that, often 967 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,200 different parties. So it can sometimes be the 968 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,520 prosecution party, that's generally the Crown Prosecution 969 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,600 Service in the UK or the owner of the dog, the defence's 970 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,760 solicitors that need the dog to be assessed to see whether that 971 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,280 dog can safely go home or not. If the dog safely goes home, it 972 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,280 might be under what's called a conditional destruction order, 973 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:48,040 which sounds quite intense. But essentially what that means 974 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:52,200 is the dog is not put to sleep. The dog's allowed to go home as 975 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:53,640 long as they follow these conditions. 976 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,720 And sometimes that can be, you know, if the dog is got an 977 00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:57,640 history of aggressive behaviour or something like that. 978 00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,800 And sometimes that might be something like wearing a muzzle. 979 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,280 It might be something like the dog remaining on leash in 980 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,280 public. It might be something like 981 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,760 sometimes we look at things like baby gates and gates being 982 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,400 installed in the home to stop the dog running up to the front 983 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,160 door when there are guests coming in. 984 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,000 So all sorts of different measures that can just make sure 985 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,240 that dog is not going to pose a risk to anyone but can also go 986 00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:20,160 home. So essentially what I do, I 987 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,640 suppose is I'll get employed to those parties and I'll do a 988 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,600 report, I'll examine the dog and meet the dog, do an assessment 989 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,920 of the dog's behaviour and Jim Robes. 990 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,840 Yeah, meeting the dog, getting as much history as I can in 991 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:36,280 relation to the to the dog as well and providing a report on 992 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,120 any risks the dog does pose and whether that dog can go home 993 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,440 safely or not. That's. 994 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,880 Really interesting. I was speaking with Professor 995 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,360 McCloskey because we were talking about artificial 996 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,400 environments specifically breeds specific legislation. 997 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,320 He was explaining to me that it's impossible to research 998 00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:54,360 because of the environment, because dogs don't exist in 999 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,880 isolation, because experiments have to be replicable. 1000 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,920 And then also there have to be humans around because nature for 1001 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,840 dogs is with humans. And there were so many different 1002 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,280 variables that he was talking about, which I found really 1003 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,080 interesting. So just thinking about your role 1004 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,600 as an expert witness, how are some of those assessments done 1005 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,520 and what in your experience is the accuracy of them? 1006 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,960 So in terms of the assessments and when I meet a dog, I'll try 1007 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,680 and get a sense of how they handle the environment that 1008 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,680 they're in. So often that's an unusual 1009 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,240 environment because if the dog's been seized by the police, that 1010 00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:31,840 sometimes go to a specific assessment location, which is 1011 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,760 new to the dog and then meeting me who they've never met before. 1012 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,480 So actually how the dog copes with that, whether the dog is 1013 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,920 confident and able to meet me, whether the dog, if the dog is 1014 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,360 feeling fearful, I don't push the dog to do anything that 1015 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,720 they're too scared to do or they're not comfortable doing. 1016 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,480 And I just try to learn about them a little bit. 1017 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,480 What are they interested in? Do they like food? 1018 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,720 Do they like toys? What sort of things do they do? 1019 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,920 And what are their arousal level like levels like in this 1020 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,320 circumstance as well? How do they respond to touch? 1021 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,800 If they're comfortable with touch, you know, how does that 1022 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,960 affect their arousal levels? Do they become very excitable 1023 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,000 and around touch, very excitable around when they get food, do 1024 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,320 they want to take it away? Or, you know, if they get 1025 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,560 chewed, they want to move that away and have to consume that on 1026 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,560 that on its own or on their own. So those sorts of things that we 1027 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,720 can look at just to tell us a little bit about how they 1028 00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:19,000 respond to a new situation. I try and make it as you know, 1029 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,640 as low stress as possible and non provocative and non 1030 00:49:21,720 --> 00:49:24,720 intrusive as possible as an assessment process. 1031 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,480 But in terms of accuracy, the research does point to the 1032 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,640 there's not research in terms of sort of legal assessments in the 1033 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,200 same way and so much. But there is research looking at 1034 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,800 dogs being assessed in shelters and rescues. 1035 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,800 And there was a famous paper that came out in 2016 by I think 1036 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,240 Patrick and Bradley and essentially it was titled no 1037 00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:48,520 better than flipping a coin. And essentially that is 1038 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,920 referring to shelter assessments and assessing dogs or one off 1039 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,440 assessments and shelter weren't very good at predicting how the 1040 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,600 dog is going to do in a new environment with a family. 1041 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,040 Particularly these kind of provocative testing ideas of 1042 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,720 going in with yelling at the dog, seeing how they respond to 1043 00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:09,480 that, throwing the dog into loads of different challenging 1044 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,880 situations, seeing how they respond to that, holding food in 1045 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,320 their face, pulling it away food. 1046 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,280 And the fact, you know, all those sorts of things aren't 1047 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,560 very predictive of how a dog is going to respond in a new 1048 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,400 environment. I think, yeah, we do have to be 1049 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,280 careful about that. And we do have to be careful 1050 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,240 about being overconfident in those sorts of assessments and 1051 00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:30,960 saying if a dog doesn't react in that situation, you know, I hold 1052 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:32,680 some food out in front of the dog and pull it away and they 1053 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,360 don't react. That doesn't necessarily mean I 1054 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,080 never got food. And equally, if a dog does 1055 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,000 react, that doesn't necessarily mean they always are going to 1056 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,120 guard food. So they're not, they're not very 1057 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:43,800 predictive. And actually what the Patrick 1058 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,000 and Bradley paper says is which is what I'm going to do in my 1059 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,080 assessments, is they suggest that they, if you are assessing 1060 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,040 a dog, you want to focus on trying to bring out the best in 1061 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,760 a dog, bring out focus on what that dog can do. 1062 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,400 And that's going to give you the most information. 1063 00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:58,960 But yeah, it is a really difficult thing. 1064 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,840 And I think if you've got a dog that has shown they have the 1065 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,840 capacity to bite and injure people in a very, very serious 1066 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,560 way, that is going to be a big part of your assessment. 1067 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:13,040 And and telling you what sort of home environment, if any, that 1068 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,480 dog is going to be able to go back to I. 1069 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,600 Was just wondering is there an assessor of the assessors no. 1070 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,000 That's the short answer. Oh really? 1071 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,360 Wow. So how does 1 become a expert 1072 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,440 witness? So essentially anyone that the 1073 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,800 court deems suitable to be an expert witness can be an expert 1074 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,800 witness. So essentially when, when my 1075 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,160 evidence gets presented in court, the report I've done, the 1076 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,680 court have to determine whether they will accept that as 1077 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,200 evidence. I've never not had my evidence 1078 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,560 accepted by the court, never been sort of, you know, no judge 1079 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:47,720 has said, oh, I don't consider this person an expert. 1080 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,960 And generally the guidelines the court have as to what they will 1081 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,200 consider an expert is both looking at qualifications and 1082 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,720 experience of that person. So, you know, anyone that is 1083 00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:01,160 qualified in working with dogs and suitably experienced in 1084 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,960 working with dogs is potentially suitable to be an expert 1085 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,720 witness. And my personal feeling is I 1086 00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:10,120 think it's useful to have some experience in sort of academic 1087 00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,120 writing because it's quite difficult to know the style that 1088 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,920 the core like in terms of a report actually stylistically, 1089 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,000 that takes a little bit of practise to get used to. 1090 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,240 And being able to integrate research as well approach 1091 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,560 accurately. And so you're producing the most 1092 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,680 accurate research based scientifically accurate report 1093 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,680 possible is really, really important. 1094 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:31,400 Yeah. That, well, that makes a lot of 1095 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,400 sense. And also who reads the report, 1096 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,400 right? I guess if it's in a language 1097 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,200 that they already understand and can relate to, it just makes the 1098 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,240 process a bit. Easier, That's also really 1099 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:42,400 important, being able to communicate that and we'll see. 1100 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,880 We and dog people are probably more familiar with language like 1101 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:47,760 oh, resource guarding, all those sorts of terms. 1102 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,520 But actually we need to make that accessible by someone who 1103 00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,600 has never even met a doc before you. 1104 00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:55,320 Know I don't know how many of those expert witness cases 1105 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,520 you've taken part in, but since starting that what have you 1106 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,920 learned about the general public as well as the legal systems 1107 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,800 understanding of dogs and dog behaviour. 1108 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,840 One of the. Challenges is the legislation 1109 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,240 around dangerous dogs is not very well written. 1110 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:15,480 It's it's famously in the legal sector, A poorly drafted area of 1111 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,800 the law and there's all sorts of holes in it like you can adopt A 1112 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,760 dog. And so for example, when I talk 1113 00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,120 about this is Section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs Act, which is 1114 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,720 specific breeds of dog breeds, specific legislation which is 1115 00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:31,200 very controversial and it's got some serious holes in amongst 1116 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,720 other issues in the sense that the identification of banned 1117 00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:39,480 breeds is done on breed type, so done on essentially the 1118 00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,040 confirmation of the dog. If the dog fits a particular 1119 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,440 confirmation then that dog is considered Pitbull type or excel 1120 00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:50,720 bully type. Have to be any genetics of a 1121 00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:54,320 Pitbull or an excel bully a dog to be considered Pitbull type. 1122 00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,840 You could have a litter of dogs some of which would be 1123 00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,840 considered grow up to be Pitbull type, some of which would not. 1124 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,280 With two non Pitbull parents you know so it's very difficult. 1125 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,840 So someone could adopt A dog, that dog could grow up to be 1126 00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,920 Pitbull type or XL bully type, and they would then be charged 1127 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,240 with owning a band breed under Section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs 1128 00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:17,680 Act, which seems really unfair given they purchased that dog as 1129 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,200 a puppy and they didn't know what it was going to grow up to 1130 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:21,960 look like. So there's all sorts of holes in 1131 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,400 it and there's all sorts of like, when does that become a 1132 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:25,960 crime? How does this all work? 1133 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,280 What do we do about this? So it's really difficult. 1134 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,600 And yeah, it's poorly drafted piece of legislation. 1135 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,160 Courts don't, I don't know what it's like in the human field, 1136 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,840 but courts don't really understand, I would say in some 1137 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,640 cases the research around dogs that well in the sense that they 1138 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:45,080 are quite happy to listen to experts who aren't very up to 1139 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,800 date scientifically, their methods are not so good as well. 1140 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,640 So yeah, that's concerning as well really, that there's, 1141 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,040 there's not always enough scrutiny there. 1142 00:54:56,040 --> 00:55:00,080 I would say human psychologists, in giving evidence in human 1143 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,400 cases, you would expect them to be a certain level of qualifying 1144 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,600 in a certain level of up to date in terms of human psychology. 1145 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,080 And I just worry that there's that not that same understanding 1146 00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:11,640 with dogs. So yeah, it's definitely a 1147 00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,840 difficult area, yeah. It's surprising to me really, 1148 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,080 because obviously this is, you know, the law and those 1149 00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,640 decisions are made about the future existence of these dogs, 1150 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,640 but also the quality of life because so many of them, if they 1151 00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,160 were seized, they can be seized for a very long time until a 1152 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,760 decision is made. And they're different dogs from 1153 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,440 what I've seen when they enter versus when they exit those 1154 00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,200 spaces, which is really sad. Do you know if, do you know if 1155 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,640 anything's being done about this or if anyone's looking out for 1156 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,720 these dogs or just yeah, is there any kind of energy or 1157 00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:48,800 attention going in that direction? 1158 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,880 Or is it that's just collateral for a law that was poorly 1159 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:52,760 drafted? I. 1160 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,800 Mean there have been so much and particularly when it's talking 1161 00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:59,800 about breed specific legislation, there's been so 1162 00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,760 much anti BSL campaigning over the last 30 plus years now. 1163 00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:09,120 And I think perhaps the closest people felt was in the sort of 1164 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,320 late 20 tense. And then obviously a couple of 1165 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:17,040 years ago the XL bully ban has come in and another one's been 1166 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,880 added to Section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs Act rather than 1167 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:25,280 it being repealed or overhauled. You know, I suppose personally I 1168 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:29,200 would say I, I don't think dangerous pre specific 1169 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,320 legislation is very helpful at all because I think a lot of 1170 00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,920 dogs suffer unnecessarily as a result of it and it doesn't 1171 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,040 actually do its job in terms of picking up dogs that are bred 1172 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,320 poorly and dogs that aren't going to be a danger to public 1173 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:43,920 safety. I think, you know, we need 1174 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,480 something better than breed specific legislation, something 1175 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,880 that actually looks at regulating breeders better, 1176 00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,800 looks at regulating who can own such large dogs in general 1177 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,560 better. But I think perhaps, you know, 1178 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:59,000 second to that, I would even say at least trying to repair and 1179 00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,240 improve. If we are going to be stuck with 1180 00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:03,840 breed specific legislation saying actually, can we at least 1181 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,040 try and improve it a little bit to make it less brew brutally 1182 00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:12,520 hard on the dogs that suffer as a result of it make and actually 1183 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:17,360 upskill the officers that are involved in typing dogs. 1184 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:23,080 So we have consistency across the country of which dogs are 1185 00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,480 going to be typed. Because if you look at the dogs 1186 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,760 that are getting typed at the moment, a lot of them do not 1187 00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,640 look like XL bullies at all, which again, is so unfair on 1188 00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:33,200 people. If you've caught a large bull 1189 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,280 breed dog just thinking, is my dog illegal? 1190 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:36,960 Is it not? You know, it's not a good way to 1191 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,600 be living being completely unclear and unsure on that. 1192 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,880 So I think and and actually I would say probably also thinking 1193 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,320 about the rehoming element, looking at there being a safe 1194 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,120 legal way to rehome a banned breed as well. 1195 00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:51,440 Because if you, you know, if you're unwell, if you can't take 1196 00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:53,880 on your dog anymore, if you can't live, you know, if you 1197 00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,240 can't provide for your dog anymore and that dog is a banned 1198 00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,680 breed, then there's no way to rehome it and the current 1199 00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:02,080 legislation. So I would say, you know, it 1200 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,640 would be lovely to see all those changes, but I don't think 1201 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:06,600 there's a lot of appetite for it at the moment. 1202 00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:08,640 What? Is one of the most enjoyable 1203 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,240 parts of your job I. I would say I love meeting lots 1204 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,440 of different dog trainers and dog experts across the world. 1205 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:21,880 And for the last three years or so, 2324, 125I hosted a 1206 00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,920 conference in the southeast of the UK where we invited lots of 1207 00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,480 amazing speakers and experts from around the world to come 1208 00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:32,160 and present and talk and share their knowledge when we had an 1209 00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:36,680 amazing audience full of dog people coming along each year. 1210 00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,080 Who I love being able to do that, meet different people, 1211 00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,640 learn from their experiences, learn about their lives and 1212 00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,360 their the connection with dogs and why they like working with 1213 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,360 dogs. And I'd say to me that's one of 1214 00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,560 the most valuable and parts of it one of the things I enjoy the 1215 00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:51,360 most. What? 1216 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,560 Do you hope to see, let's say for example, you continue to 1217 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,000 work with dogs for the rest of your days and this becomes your 1218 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,520 greatest legacy? What change would you have like 1219 00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,520 to see, let's say, in the next 10 to 20 years? 1220 00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,560 Which changes I think. I'd like to see people focusing 1221 00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,160 on their dog's welfare in their home, thinking more about their 1222 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:13,240 dog's welfare, their well-being, as opposed to whether their 1223 00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,320 dog's behaving or not well. There's a massive distinction 1224 00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,080 between those two things, isn't there? 1225 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:24,440 Yes, actually I was just listening to a seminar last week 1226 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:28,600 where they were this particular company was rolling out their 1227 00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:33,360 strategy for 2026 and beyond. And that strategy was based on 1228 00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:37,000 research that they had commissioned themselves. 1229 00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:41,520 And it was research on dog guardians globally. 1230 00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,360 And they were listing the market size and how not just 1231 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,560 millennials, but like loads of different, different generations 1232 00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:51,760 are so much more kind of generous and giving when it 1233 00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,400 comes to their pets. And so like a lot of us care 1234 00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:59,240 very deeply about the pets in our homes, dogs specifically in 1235 00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,560 this case. And so those people would, I 1236 01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,800 would hazard a guess if. If you'd ask them believe that 1237 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,760 they are actually looking out for the welfare and well-being 1238 01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,680 of their dogs. So how would you make the 1239 01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:17,160 distinction between what a regular dog guardian considers 1240 01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,080 to be a dog's behaviour? Like in isolation, a dog's 1241 01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:22,360 behaviour, dog's welfare and a dog's well-being? 1242 01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:26,240 Like they might look at all of that as kind of more or less one 1243 01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,560 thing or not. So I think, you know, you're 1244 01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,800 absolutely right. And I think when we think about 1245 01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,560 behaviour problems, we can see them as symptoms in many cases 1246 01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:41,840 of a dog whose welfare is struggling or they're struggling 1247 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:43,800 from the sort of well-being point of view. 1248 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,240 And actually being able to recognise that as actually, 1249 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,760 yeah, this is my dog telling me something, telling me something 1250 01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:52,280 about the environment that they're in isn't right for them 1251 01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,640 at the moment. Whether it's that dog behaving 1252 01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:58,800 aggressively, barking at people, plunging at people out and 1253 01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,000 about, you know, that's information that that dog is not 1254 01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,000 in a good environment. That's not an environment that's 1255 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,680 working for that dog right now. And we need to find a way to 1256 01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:08,480 address that as a starting point. 1257 01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:10,480 And if we are working on that behaviour, if we are even 1258 01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:12,840 working on changing that behaviour, working on helping 1259 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:18,560 that dog become more confident and feel OK around strangers, 1260 01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,520 the starting point, we need to fix the environment. 1261 01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:22,640 We need to get them out of that environment to start with where 1262 01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:25,400 they are being exposed to people they're not comfortable around 1263 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,800 and then rebuild that longer term with the dog once they've 1264 01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,800 got the strategies and skills in place to be able to deal with 1265 01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,200 those situations. So nothing for anyone. 1266 01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:37,320 If your dog, your animal is doing something that you 1267 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,120 consider a behaviour problem, just stopping from anything 1268 01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,000 about actually, what does that tell me? 1269 01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,760 What does that tell me about my dog's well-being? 1270 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,160 Does it tell me that I need to actually do something? 1271 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:48,520 That I need to address something? 1272 01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,280 Because lots of these things do happen for a reason. 1273 01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:54,000 Dogs are good at communicating with us if we are able to 1274 01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,360 actually stop and listen to what they're saying. 1275 01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:58,440 Can. You tie that back to an 1276 01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:02,000 individual case or experience that you might have had because 1277 01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:05,120 it feels, it almost feels like there's a visceral message, like 1278 01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,560 you know, it feels like you've really connected with that 1279 01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,240 message that you want people to realise that there is a 1280 01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,120 difference between these two things, behaviour and work. 1281 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,480 In many cases that I see, you know, so many cases, people 1282 01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:19,840 feeling like they're dogs doing something to annoy them, that 1283 01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,840 they're doing it because they're they're undisciplined doing it 1284 01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,240 because they don't respect them and they're doing it because, 1285 01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:28,000 you know, doing something particularly, you know, 1286 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,120 aggression, separation concerns, all those sorts of things. 1287 01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:35,080 Compulsive behaviours as well, repestive compulsive behaviours 1288 01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:37,280 are happening in the home. All those things, people 1289 01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,720 interpreting that as the dog being naughty and the dog being 1290 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:43,680 badly behaved and actually not being able to look at the deeper 1291 01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,280 meaning that might be behind that behaviour. 1292 01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:49,240 The deeper reason that might be contributing to that behaviour, 1293 01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:51,840 whether it be the dog feeling really uncomfortable in those 1294 01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:55,080 circumstances with the dog being really fearful, the dog being 1295 01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,760 unhealthy in many cases as well. So many behaviour problems are 1296 01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:00,200 actually linked to health as well. 1297 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:04,640 So just so many cases, so many examples to to that I could 1298 01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,520 yeah, think of, I suppose let's. Say for example, a guardian 1299 01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,320 would identify, OK, there's some kind of there's the behaviour 1300 01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,360 challenges, whether they are actually behaviour or not, but 1301 01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:18,560 like what would be a practical and actionable step for them to 1302 01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,560 be able to at first try and identify what is actually what 1303 01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:24,520 the dog is experiencing? Well, I. 1304 01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,120 Suppose go back to the regression example. 1305 01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:28,840 If we've got a dog who is showing aggressive behaviour in 1306 01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:30,920 a number of different circumstances out and about, we 1307 01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:32,840 need to think how can we stop that occurring? 1308 01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:34,960 We need to stop that. You know, if I'm going and 1309 01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,240 seeing that case, I want to stop that aggression from occurring 1310 01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,320 in a few days. And that's not by, you know, 1311 01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,440 magically making the dog feel more comfortable around people. 1312 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:44,720 If we've got a dog that's showing aggressive behaviour 1313 01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,360 towards strangers, but that's actually by changing that dog's 1314 01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:50,080 environment and saying look what we're going to put in place to 1315 01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:54,040 make sure that is not happening going forward whilst we work on 1316 01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,440 improving the dog's confidence. And sometimes that is things 1317 01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:59,760 like secure fields for their dog, for their walks and walking 1318 01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,600 the dog in spaces where they're not going to be in sort of busy 1319 01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,040 environments, Making sure the dog's not taken into 1320 01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,160 environments where they aren't going to cope so well. 1321 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:09,760 And if we've got visitors coming over, making sure we've got a 1322 01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,600 really good plan in place for that. 1323 01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,400 Sometimes it's a case of, you know, doorbells an issue. 1324 01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,720 Sometimes we have to look at things like getting people to 1325 01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,120 call when they arrive, putting a note on the door so people can't 1326 01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:22,400 ring the doorbell. Alexa doorbells, there are also 1327 01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:24,240 really good ones for that because you can just have them 1328 01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,640 notify you on your phone rather than ringing the doorbell. 1329 01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:30,080 So just making sure actually as a starting point, we fix that 1330 01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:34,400 environment so the dog isn't continuing to experience that 1331 01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,000 distress. And then we can start working on 1332 01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,400 helping the dog feel more confident and start working on 1333 01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:42,200 those underlying emotional concerns longer term, OK. 1334 01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:43,720 Amazing. That's really good. 1335 01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:45,800 I was actually just thinking about well, what if the 1336 01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:47,920 environment is home? It's not like you can change the 1337 01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:49,800 home environment. So you're saying switch to 1338 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:51,680 management then we're? Always talking, yeah. 1339 01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:54,600 The environment is management. It's looking at making sure 1340 01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:56,800 that's not happening, I suppose in, you know, whether we're 1341 01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:58,880 talking about out and about whether we're talking about in 1342 01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:00,680 the home. That is changing the home 1343 01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:02,680 environment, yeah. How important is the 1344 01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,960 relationship between the guardian and the dog in terms of 1345 01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:07,640 optimal behaviour? Well. 1346 01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:09,600 Very important. I know you said you had Adam 1347 01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:13,760 McCloskey on a couple of weeks ago and he's an amazing research 1348 01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:16,640 to look at in terms of the attachment relationship between 1349 01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:18,640 humans and dogs. I know he's done a lot of work 1350 01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:21,040 on that. And again, that attachment 1351 01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:24,080 relationship the dogs form with humans is very much like the 1352 01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,360 relationship human children actually form with their 1353 01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:27,960 caregivers, their human caregivers. 1354 01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:30,600 So dogs have evolved in this unique way that they can form 1355 01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:32,480 these attachment relationships with us. 1356 01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,080 And as a result of that, that allows them to sort of use us as 1357 01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:38,640 a secure, safe base to explore the world. 1358 01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:41,400 You know, they experience some distress in many cases on on 1359 01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:43,880 separation with us. And, and that that 1360 01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,560 reconciliation is, is kind of comforting for them. 1361 01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:51,480 And a big part of that of promoting that sort of secure 1362 01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:54,880 attachment relationship is actually us as caregivers being 1363 01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,520 sensitive to their needs and being able to recognise when 1364 01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:00,320 they're struggling with things and being able to help them and 1365 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:01,680 support them through that. What? 1366 01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:06,400 Is a sign to you that a dog would have a secure attachment, 1367 01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:08,080 so there's two. Things that we can look for when 1368 01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:09,840 we're talking about insecure attachments. 1369 01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,280 So there's sort of anxious or sometimes called, yeah, anxious 1370 01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:16,880 attachment styles. So that's often where we see the 1371 01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:19,640 dog almost hyper fixating on what the owner is doing. 1372 01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,600 What's going on with that with my main caregiver? 1373 01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:25,880 And if they can't relax, if they can't get to that point where 1374 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:27,720 they're like, yeah, I can just relax because I know they've got 1375 01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,080 me. I know that they are supporting 1376 01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:32,720 me and be taking care of me. I can go to sleep. 1377 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:34,480 They're not going to disappear and I'm never going to see them 1378 01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:37,040 again is really important. If you see a dog that's 1379 01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,400 constantly fixation, what men are doing that, what they're 1380 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,480 doing now, what they're doing now, then actually that can be, 1381 01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,360 it looks like they're really, really love their owner, but 1382 01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:46,120 actually it can be a sign that they're not feeling very 1383 01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:49,840 confident in that relationship. So that's an important thing to 1384 01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:51,680 look at. On the other side of things, you 1385 01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:53,440 might have a dog that's struggling, seems to really 1386 01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,080 struggle to connect with their owner. 1387 01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:58,000 And that's what we sometimes see an avoidant attachment styles 1388 01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,600 and a dog that's sort of not super comfortable engaging, not 1389 01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,760 super comfortable seeking support if they're feeling 1390 01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:05,520 distressed. And again, that's something that 1391 01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:09,040 we can work on by helping that dog, helping that caregiver 1392 01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,160 often actually be more sensitive to that dog's needs. 1393 01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,000 So the dog starts learning that they can actually rely on that 1394 01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:16,640 caregiver more. Fascinating. 1395 01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,320 I would love to know what gives you hope within the dog world, 1396 01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,760 What excites you? So is there anything that you're 1397 01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:25,680 looking forward to that you're working on? 1398 01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:28,760 I think. I'm, I'm hopeful that people 1399 01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:31,120 will continue to show an interest in this. 1400 01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:34,120 People like yourself that are, you know, creating all this 1401 01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:38,320 amazing sort of interviews and work and podcasts for people 1402 01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:42,120 that just love dogs and want to learn about dogs is so good to 1403 01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:44,200 see because it means that actually people are taking that 1404 01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:45,680 interest. People are wanting to learn more 1405 01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,320 more about dogs. People are wanting to sort of 1406 01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:51,200 scratch beneath the surface of why my dog behaves like they do, 1407 01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,560 what a good life really means for a dog. 1408 01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:56,040 And I really hope that continues. 1409 01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:00,840 I really hope people continue to become more aware of what dogs 1410 01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:04,120 need and sort of the complexity of dogs lives and sort of not 1411 01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,080 just thinking of them as these kind of pets and they're just 1412 01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:08,760 part of the home and they just do what, you know, what we 1413 01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:11,440 expect them to do. But actually they are their own 1414 01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:13,960 individual beings and they, they've got a lot going on and 1415 01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,319 there's a lot that we need to think about to be able to meet 1416 01:08:16,319 --> 01:08:18,720 their needs appropriately. So that's what I hope. 1417 01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:22,200 And I suppose, well, that's what I'm positive about. 1418 01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,600 And I suppose I hope that that continues. 1419 01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:28,760 And I hope that more and more people continue to, to really 1420 01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:31,560 start being able to talk about and think about dogs in a way 1421 01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,120 that's a little bit more complex and a little bit more thought 1422 01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:39,319 through than just thinking of dogs as pets with personality of 1423 01:08:39,399 --> 01:08:42,080 a dog actually going beyond the surface a little bit. 1424 01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:43,120 Daniel. Thank you so much. 1425 01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,600 I really appreciate your time for sharing your experience, 1426 01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:48,840 experience and your insights and also being honest. 1427 01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:50,600 So thank you so much for that. Thank. 1428 01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:52,000 You. It's been wonderful talking to 1429 01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:52,760 you. Lovely. 1430 01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:53,840 Chatting with you too.