1 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,640 Welcome to Flight Global Focus, the essential podcast for 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,800 trusted aviation insight. I'm Ryan Finnerty, Flight 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,800 Global's America's defence reporter. 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,760 And in today's episode, for years, the US Air Force has 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,560 talked about retiring its famous ground attack fighter, the A10 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,840 Thunderbolt 2, more commonly known as the Warthog. 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,760 The A10 has repeatedly proven itself in combat throughout the 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,160 past 25 years, including the recent air operations over Iran 9 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:38,480 and the Persian Gulf. But the Air Force says the A10 10 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:43,000 fleet is too old, too expensive to maintain, and I'll suited for 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,240 modern combat. After years of trying, the Air 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,880 Force began retiring some A 10s in 2023. 13 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:54,640 The fleet has now shrunk to fewer than 150 aircraft, down 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,200 from a recent high of 280. And earlier this month, the US 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,960 Air Force graduated what it says will be the final class of new A 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,560 10 pilots before the jet is retired. 17 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,120 But the A10 has survived retirement scares in the past, 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,560 and there are signs from Washington it may do so again. 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,080 After previously saying it would retire the Warthog by 2027, the 20 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,120 Pentagon now says operations may continue through 2030. 21 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,240 Here with me to discuss the past and future of the A10 are Flight 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,840 Global's European defence editor Craig Hoyle in London and our 23 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,880 managing defence editor Greg Waldron in Singapore. 24 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:32,800 Hey, guys. Hi. 25 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:41,080 Ryan, hi, everybody. OK, Greg, let's start with you. 26 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,680 This is a very famous plane all around the world. 27 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,440 There really isn't anything else like it. 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,800 It's it's almost a flying armoured vehicle built around a 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:54,080 gatling gun to kill tanks. How did the A10 first come to 30 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:55,800 be? Well, really, you know, the 31 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,920 genesis of the A10 comes about with the AX competition in, you 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,880 know, the early 1970s and it was completing against an aircraft 33 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,880 called the Y 9. And I guess the mission at the 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,120 time was really, you know, you're really in the heart of 35 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:14,080 the Cold War and the Eastern Bloc had this massive armour 36 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,960 superiority. So you need a, you know, an 37 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,200 aircraft that can really absorb a lot of punishment because, you 38 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,040 know, the Soviets and their allies had a lot of anti 39 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,160 aircraft capability and then just basically destroy tanks as 40 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,600 they're pouring through the Fulde Gap and the other 41 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,160 strategic points on that frontier. 42 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:35,080 And the other thing that really influenced it as well was they 43 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,960 did an aircraft that could take a tonne of punishment because in 44 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,000 the Vietnam War, the US lost a lot of aircraft to ground fire. 45 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,360 You know, they really struggled during the close air support 46 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,240 mission in places like Khe San, parts of Vietnam. 47 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,320 You know, they lost aircraft. So they wanted an aircraft that 48 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,240 could hit very hard and that would also be able to take a 49 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,120 massive amount of punishment. So it came down to the A10 and 50 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,560 another plane called the a Nine by Northrop. 51 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,360 And pilots, I understand actually preferred the a Nine 52 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,840 because it was more fun to fly as a pilot. 53 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,720 It felt more like a fighter plane. 54 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,600 The A10 looked kind of weird, but the A10, unlike the A Nine, 55 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,160 was using a commercial engine, the General Electric TF 34 and 56 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,080 the A Nine was going to get a new Lycoming engine, so there 57 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,320 would be more engine risk with the A9 programme. 58 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,240 I suppose another issue with the why Not a Nine was that it had 59 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,840 very high wings. So if you're a crew member and 60 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,640 you want to refuel the aircraft, you want to load weapons on it, 61 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,160 you had to climb quite high. So that made that work quite 62 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,760 difficult. Both aircraft were going to have 63 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,680 this new 30 millimetre cannon, which would be able to cut 64 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,880 through the frontal armour of Soviet tanks. 65 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,880 So the A nine would have mounted it internally, a more 66 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,960 conventional housing like we see with the 20 millimetre cannons 67 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,680 on most American fighter aircraft. 68 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,400 Whereas the A10, of course, the gun has a very prominent 69 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,760 position sticking out the nose and that gives it that very 70 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,440 distinct profile. And also, you know, the other 71 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,280 big thing is the the famous titanium bathtub when they 72 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,200 retire that maybe I'd like to buy one of these bathtubs for, 73 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,600 you know, my house. But massive protection for the 74 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,640 pilots. So this thing can take some 75 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,640 really serious hits and yet the pilot will survive. 76 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,400 Now the Cold War, of course, the Europe never got hot. 77 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,960 You know, the Soviet Union kind of faded away. 78 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,360 But the A10 nonetheless was a very effective in the US wars in 79 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,200 Iraq. It was very effective in 80 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,040 Afghanistan, and now, of course, it's operating in Iran. 81 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:39,800 And it's, you know, still proving itself to be, you know, 82 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,240 have uses in the modern age, even though it was designed for 83 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,480 a mission over 50 years ago, which no longer really exists. 84 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:52,120 And I'll never forget, like I was in 1990, I met some Royal 85 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,560 Air Force or Tornado pilots, and I said, yeah, what do you guys 86 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,160 think about the A10? And they said, look, the gun 87 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,800 might not be as great against tanks as it used to be, but just 88 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,240 fired at the troops. It's a morale destroyer. 89 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,640 Yeah, You know, it's funny, when I was a cadet in the US Army, we 90 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,600 used to go to a training range near where there were tests 91 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,640 being done on on that gun and you could just hear it echoing 92 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,360 throughout the mountains. There's really haunting loud 93 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,480 sound as there's nothing else like it, I think that I've ever 94 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,520 heard in the world, especially when you're you're walking 95 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,000 around alone or in a small group. 96 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,240 And you could just imagine the morale of being on the other 97 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,000 side of that plummeting, like you mentioned, Greg. 98 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,920 Also, Ryan, the interesting thing about the gun is that it 99 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,640 fire originally fired these depleted uranium rounds. 100 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,080 And of course, when these hit an armoured target and go inside, 101 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,080 they make like this white hot stuff that flies around inside 102 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,480 called Spall. So it's a very, very lethal 103 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,440 weapon, in addition to being loud as you mentioned. 104 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,720 Craig, this is a topic. You've covered quite a bit over 105 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,360 the years and you had quite a nice headline a while back in In 106 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,880 Flight International magazine. Could you maybe talk about that 107 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,320 story? Yeah. 108 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,120 Absolutely. And and just following up from 109 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:11,880 what Craig said, yes, absolutely. 110 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,440 If there is a market for A10 titanium hot tubs, I am second 111 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:16,840 in queue for that after you, Greg. 112 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,360 Yeah, So on the headline, I, I have to refer back to this piece 113 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,800 I wrote in March 2004. So I'd only been at Flight 114 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,120 International for a few months and I have to refer to it. 115 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,160 It was about the A10 having a big upgrade and I'm still really 116 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,520 proud of the headline. So I went with old hog new 117 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,600 tricks. So yeah, I'm not sure I've done 118 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,160 much better than that in my my time since. 119 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,800 So that article came out of a visit I'd done to Spangdalen Air 120 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,880 Base in Germany with Lockheed Martin as my host for that trip. 121 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,360 And the USAF had a last European based squadron of a 10s flying 122 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,880 out of there and we were talking about all the planned additions 123 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,080 that were coming to the jet. So that included things like the 124 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,720 lightning targeting pod and JDAM position guided bombs. 125 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,400 So at that point, the upgrades which were going to take part, 126 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,280 along with running enhancements like wing replacements and new 127 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,720 engine pylons at the back of the aircraft, they were aimed at 128 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,520 getting the Warthog to fight on until 2028. 129 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,000 So, you know, not not far off the revised 2030 target that 130 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,920 we're talking now. Yeah. 131 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,200 Some striking bits, sort of thinking back to that visit. 132 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,080 So I can remember talking to the pilots there, and they were 133 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,680 quite excited about getting lightning onto the jet. 134 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,600 I think they'd used it a little bit in Afghanistan by that 135 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,640 point. But they were saying basically 136 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,240 it was great because it would let them support ground troops 137 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,240 without having to sit in the cockpit using binoculars, which 138 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,560 felt so old school. I couldn't really believe that 139 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,080 they still did that and I, I forget who the other journalist 140 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,320 on the trip was with me, but he was absolutely mind blown. 141 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,680 They took us through the squadron house and they had a 142 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,760 cabinet with a used shell case from a 30 millimetre round, 143 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,840 which is huge. And there was this really famous 144 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:04,160 photo up on the wall which shows the GAU 8 cannon assembly 145 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,360 sitting on the ground next to a Volkswagen Beetle and it makes 146 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,160 the car look absolutely tiny. So that that really gave you a 147 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,280 scale of the firepower on the aircraft. 148 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,160 The other sort of memory I've got of the A10 is I'd seen it at 149 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:18,960 air shows in the UK when I was a kid. 150 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,320 But when I was in a gap year before university, I had quite a 151 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,240 lot of fun working at a archaeological dig at Roman 152 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,400 Villa of all things. So the youths have had some a 153 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,760 10s in the UK RF Bentwaters back then and I'm not sure why, but 154 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,480 they really enjoy doing low level flights over rural 155 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,799 Gloucestershire. So there you are working at this 156 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:44,000 at this dig and you only hear The Jets as they pretty much get 157 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,480 on top of you. And every time you just make 158 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,160 visitors to the site jump out of their skins, which was always 159 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,040 quite funny. So yeah, that's, that's my sort 160 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,240 of personal memories of a 10. And I also got to sit in one of 161 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,360 The Jets, I think. I think I visited A Wego with 162 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,200 Lockheed Martin and they had one there supporting the upgrade. 163 00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:05,360 And that really gave you the feel. 164 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,320 It's a it's a big aircraft and sitting up front with a wing way 165 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,640 behind you, you've got fantastic visibility up front. 166 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,800 So anyway, yeah. So going back to the legendary 167 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,080 battlefield survivability and that titanium bathtub again, 168 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,120 Ryan, you wrote a fantastic piece a little while back after 169 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,520 interviewing Kim Campbell for Flight Global's Women in 170 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,200 Aviation series. So KC was flying a mission over 171 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,640 Baghdad in April 2003 when her jet got hit by a surface to a 172 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,520 missile, and she displayed some of the most astonishing piloting 173 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,360 skills to fly it away, land and actually live to tell the tale. 174 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,520 How did she do that, Ryan? Yeah, this is a really 175 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,240 incredible story and and we are actually going to hear from Kim 176 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,360 later in the episode who goes by her call sign KC. 177 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,640 But during that famous mission over Iraq, where it's now become 178 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,600 very famous, she took a Sam impact that knocked out both the 179 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,000 primary and secondary hydraulic systems on her A10. 180 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:14,080 And fortunately for KC, the the Warthog has a a tertiary set of 181 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,160 backup mechanical flight controls that can be used in an 182 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,400 emergency. And she told me during this 183 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,680 interview that that's known with an A10 world as going to manual 184 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:27,000 reversion. And so this is a really old 185 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:33,120 school set of cranks and cables that offer some limited control 186 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,120 over the aircraft, but you're not getting you the pilot are 187 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,880 not getting hydraulic assistance on the stick or any of the other 188 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:43,840 inputs. So it's more limited. 189 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:45,640 It's it's more physically demanding. 190 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,120 But this was this manual reversion was enough for KC to 191 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,240 regain control of the heavily damaged A10, kind of pull it out 192 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,640 of a dive and get back into stable flight. 193 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,240 And at this point in the war, that portion of of land around 194 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,520 Baghdad was still enemy territory. 195 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,640 And so she was being faced with the prospect of having to eject 196 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,640 over enemy territory, much like we saw in Iran last month. 197 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,880 And that was obviously not an encouraging prospect. 198 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,320 So she was able to get control of the A10 and point it S 199 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,080 towards Kuwait and managed to fly it more than 400 kilometres 200 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:30,400 back to friendly territory where she and her flight lead and 201 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,960 their commander on the ground via radio were discussing 202 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,520 whether or not she should just eject over friendly territory 203 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,560 because the aircraft was so badly damaged. 204 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,880 And Kim felt that she she had enough control and, and that 205 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,080 things were stable enough that she was going to attempt to land 206 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,080 under manual reversion and, and managed to do it successfully. 207 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,080 And that was only the fourth time in history that anyone had 208 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,360 done that because it was considered such a dangerous and 209 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:05,920 risky manoeuvre that it was not attempted during training. 210 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,480 She told me that a 10 pilots practise it in simulators, 211 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,200 practise landing in manual reversion and simulators or 212 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:17,200 they'll go up above 10,000 feet and sort of simulate landing 213 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,920 with plenty of empty sky beneath them under manual reversion. 214 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,640 So they do have a feel for for the aircraft under those 215 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,440 conditions, but don't actually get anywhere near the ground 216 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,920 because it is considered such a difficult manoeuvre to perform. 217 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,160 And if you want to hear more about that, you can read an 218 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,320 account of that mission and King's full Air Force career. 219 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,880 She wrote a memoir called Flying in the Face of Fear that you can 220 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,960 find. Or you can read, as Craig 221 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,640 mentioned, my 2023 profile of her that is up on 222 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,600 flightglobal.com and we'll have a link to that in the show 223 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,720 notes. But since retiring from the Air 224 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,480 Force as a full Colonel, Kim Campbell has become a sort of 225 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:02,520 unofficial spokesman for the A10 community and often advocating 226 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,120 for both the pilots and and the aircraft itself. 227 00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:09,600 Earlier this month, she actually spoke at the graduation ceremony 228 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,680 for what the Air Force says will be the last class of pilots to 229 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:18,040 receive a 10 mission qualification training, or MQT. 230 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,440 So that means they're fully certified to fly the A10 in 231 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,320 combat. I spoke with her after she gave 232 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,360 that speech and she highlighted the role that a 10 pilots played 233 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,040 in rescuing the crew of an American F15 E that was shot 234 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,720 down over Iran last month, providing close air support and 235 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,000 coordinating the rescue effort from the air. 236 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,960 That's what's known within the Air Force as the Sandy mission. 237 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,320 And I asked Kim Campbell how it felt to see the A10 fly a real 238 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,960 life Sandy mission and what she thinks about the latest attempt 239 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,640 to retire the war hog. The close air support mission is 240 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,640 something very well known, but combat search and rescue in the 241 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,560 Sandy role that we play isn't as well known, mostly because we 242 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:03,240 don't have to do it as frequently, which is a good 243 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,920 thing. But many of us get qualified as 244 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,760 a Sandy pilot and are designated so that we can perform those 245 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,240 rescue missions. But it requires very intense 246 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,000 training. It requires very intense 247 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,920 coordination with other rescue platforms because it's not a 248 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,680 pickup game. It's not something you do on the 249 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,280 fly. It's something that you've 250 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,840 practise, you've rehearsed, you've gone through scenarios, 251 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,120 worst case scenarios and so these are highly trained a 10 252 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,280 pilots that have worked with the rescue task force to go out and 253 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,800 do these missions. So how did it make me feel 254 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,280 really proud of these guys that they went out there, they did 255 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,880 exactly what you trained to do in a very high threat scenario, 256 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,880 and they were able to bring a pilot and a whizzo back home 257 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,800 safely. And within the Air Force, why is 258 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,440 it that the A10 was identified for this role? 259 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,600 And you know, it's obviously a very unique aircraft compared to 260 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,600 everything else in the inventory, but what is it about 261 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,960 the A10 that that makes it really suited to that Sandy 262 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,080 mission? Well, I think the the best thing 263 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,040 that I the, the number one thing is that we train to it very 264 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,080 specifically, but we do have some specific hardware on our 265 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,400 aircraft. We obviously have very long 266 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,160 loiter times. We're also very used to 267 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,280 providing firepower down in close proximity to friendly 268 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,440 forces. So, you know, we're going to put 269 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,680 ourselves at risk to help that survivor on the ground. 270 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,800 Since you retired from active duty, you've been something of 271 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,040 an advocate for the A10 and the A10 community. 272 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:36,400 You're, I think, probably the most well known A10 alumnus. 273 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,840 And when we've spoken in the past, you've raised the point 274 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,800 that there's been a lot of efforts or attempts at retiring 275 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,960 the A10 over the years, and it keeps surviving, and it keeps 276 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:54,040 proving its usefulness and effectiveness in whatever 277 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,560 context arises. And that's sometimes not what 278 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,400 the aircraft was designed for, but it keeps finding ways to be 279 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,920 relevant and useful. We sort of saw that again in 280 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,560 Iran just recently. The Air Force has now graduated 281 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,760 the last MQT class officially. Who knows what's going to 282 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,040 happen. But how are you viewing that now 283 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,720 that it seems like there is momentum to actually retire the 284 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,520 aircraft, yet it continues to prove that it is useful? 285 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,520 Well, it's happened over and over again. 286 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:29,840 And yes, I'm an advocate for the aeroplane. 287 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,440 I'm an advocate for the pilots because I think there's no one 288 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,520 better than us at what we do. Having said that, I think the 289 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,040 most important thing is that we ensure that we have a platform 290 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,320 in the future that can do close air support and can do combat 291 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,560 search and rescue. And so right now, I mean, the 292 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,080 good news out of the conflict in Iran is that we have extended 293 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,360 ended the life of the A10 to at least 20-30, at least that's 294 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,080 what the recent reports say, which isn't much longer than was 295 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,520 originally planned, but it's something and it allows us to 296 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,200 take a look at what is the future of combat search and 297 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,280 rescue. How are we going to do that? 298 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,160 And I think that's the missing piece is that right now there is 299 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,960 no replacement and there is no aircraft that is designated for 300 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,040 those missions, that is training for those missions. 301 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,480 And perhaps even more important than the aircraft itself is the 302 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:25,240 the people who fly it. And those are perishable skills 303 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,400 for an institution like the US Air Force. 304 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,880 If there's not that pipeline of people coming in and getting 305 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,560 trained by more experienced and more senior pilots, how do you 306 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,480 think about that? If, if this is in fact the last 307 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,640 MQT class or maybe there's a, a gap and, and the Air Force 308 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,600 decides to restart training or bring in another airframe and, 309 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,160 and restart training. How long before the institution 310 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,600 starts to kind of lose some of this very specific knowledge 311 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,680 that resides within the A10 community if there's not new 312 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,440 talent being brought in and and this kind of flow through the 313 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,520 pipeline restarted? Yeah, that's one of the the key 314 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,560 problems. I mean, the A10 in terms of what 315 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,280 they've already done in terms of divestment of the aeroplane. 316 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,000 I mean, the depot's closed, so we have maintenance and 317 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,920 logistics issues. The weapons school is closed. 318 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:20,840 So now we're losing that pipeline. 319 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,080 The schoolhouse just closed, so we're losing that pipeline. 320 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:25,880 So there's a lot of significant issues. 321 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:32,840 I mean, if you look at the Sandy one who LED this mission to 322 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,000 rescue this weapon systems officer, I mean, from my 323 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,200 understanding, they, you know, they went both through the MQT 324 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,600 programme that just shut down and the weapon school. 325 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,320 And so now you, you know, it just shows you that the 326 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,320 capability that is potentially going to lack. 327 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,280 I mean, right now the good thing is we still have a 10 pilots 328 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,080 doing the job, doing the mission, getting creative and 329 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,080 innovative in terms of how to respond to this current 330 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,320 environment. But we also have a real 331 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,160 possibility of losing this quickly, depending upon how far 332 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,120 down the road we go. How long do you think it would 333 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,160 take to come up with a replacement for the A10? 334 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,400 Or is there anything out there in the world already that you 335 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,600 think could maybe be a suitable successor to the A10 if the Air 336 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,320 Force did decide to recapitalize the fleet with the different 337 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,240 aircraft? That's a good question. 338 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,920 I don't think that there's anything out there right now 339 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,840 that is a suitable replacement. And the reason for that is if 340 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,480 you look at the F16 community, the Strike Eagle community, you 341 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,840 know, they have a lot of missions already. 342 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,360 And So what it would take is one of those communities adding on 343 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,880 to the missions that they already do and adding in close 344 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,040 air support or combat search and rescue, but they're already 345 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,480 tasked with several other missions. 346 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,440 And so now you run the risk of there there isn't enough hours 347 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,360 to fly to do all the missions that they're tasked to do. 348 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,960 That was retired US Air Force Colonel and A10 pilot Kim 349 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:07,800 Campbell speaking to me after the graduation of the the final 350 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,960 class of trained US Air Force A10 pilots. 351 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,040 Craig. Over the past six weeks, the A10 352 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,200 has been flying drone interception missions, air 353 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,880 patrols over the Strait of Hormuz, air to ground bombing. 354 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,680 Guns and as we heard there from KC, combat search and rescue 355 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,320 flights in the Middle East. The Pentagon has even said that 356 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,720 it has been used to strike small boats in the Persian Gulf. 357 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:33,160 What do you think about Casey's point there? 358 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,040 That there really is no other aircraft out there that can fill 359 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,240 this particular niche. Yeah, I mean, back to the old 360 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,560 hog new tricks thing again. Yeah, I mean, in addition to 361 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,760 what it's been doing, so hitting small boats, for example. 362 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,520 We've also had a rapid update recently, which means that the 363 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,040 A10 can now be refuelled, would have a modification on its nose 364 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,080 so it can do hose and drogue refuelling. 365 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,600 There's been trouble for the US Air Force with clearing it to 366 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,440 work with the KC 46. So this this means it can now 367 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,240 refuel a different way. So that's been quite an 368 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,280 interesting late addition. So, so late in it's life. 369 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,600 But back to the sort of niche capability. 370 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:13,960 I mean, Casey's absolutely right. 371 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,760 The A10 has this inherent survivability and firepower that 372 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,080 other types just do not have. I guess the natural replacement 373 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,720 for it is the F35 fifth generation stealth fighter. 374 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,280 You certainly wouldn't put high value asset like that in harm's 375 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:35,840 way like you you do the Warthog. We saw one UCFF 35A get hit by 376 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,720 some form of ground fire during Operation Epic Fury. 377 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,120 It wouldn't have been flying low level like an A10 while that 378 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:44,200 happened. So that's sort of shown the 379 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,800 vulnerability also sort of practical bits like the I think 380 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,120 the Marine Corps F-30 Fives have an external cannon, but it's a 381 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:56,040 lot smaller and it's just it's not the same sort of mission. 382 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,680 Of course, if you, if you think about the, the counterparts out 383 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,480 there, there's the Soviet era one, which is circle is SU-25 384 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,200 Frogfoot. There are still about 500 of 385 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,440 those in use around the globe. But it's got less technology 386 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,240 than the A10. It's, it's equally that's 387 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,520 slightly younger platform, but it's very old and it's mainly 388 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,280 flown by the likes of Russia, Belarus, African air forces, 389 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,360 things like that. Casey referred to the F16. 390 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,840 So that did a lot of closer support work in Afghanistan, 391 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,800 both with Yousaf and and European nations like the 392 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,960 Netherlands. But it was a much more benign 393 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,240 operating environment than we see in Iran. 394 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:41,200 So I mean, looking at alternatives, swayed by what had 395 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,680 happened in Afghanistan, US Air Force embarked on the armed 396 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,240 Overwatch programme. And the idea behind that was it 397 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,000 can employ A turboprop to do work like close air support at a 398 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,480 fraction of the cost that a fast jet would take to use. 399 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,560 And at that time, the Afghan Air Force that was being set up, 400 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,720 they had the Embraer A-29 Super Takano coming via US Prime 401 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,920 Sierra Nevada. And then Beechcraft came up with 402 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,600 the 86 Wolverine version of its trainer. 403 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,800 So that sort of market opened up. 404 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,920 Ultimately U.S. Special Operations Command 405 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,960 picked a heavily armoured adapted crop duster for this 406 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:27,600 role and 1st deliveries of the OA1K Sky Raider 2 have already 407 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,080 started from L3 Harris. So as it's an adapted crop 408 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,760 duster, the Sky Raider looks like it can pack a punch and 409 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,160 also should take some punishment as well. 410 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,400 But it's you know it's no A10 and if it was parked on the ramp 411 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,160 next to a Warthog I know what most pilots would rather be 412 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,360 flying. So I think the turbo prop would 413 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:50,560 do a decent job, but looking at the survivability side I 414 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,120 struggled to see how it's going to cope in a sort of near peer 415 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,840 conflict that the US is now pivoting towards. 416 00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:59,560 Yeah, that's a good point about the OA 1K. 417 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,400 Craig and I know L3 Harris, which is the prime contractor 418 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,280 and that has floated it as a potential A10 replacement and 419 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,520 they're very enthusiastic about it. 420 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,800 But having seen that up close at the Soft Week trade show in 421 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,600 Tampa, FL last year, it looks like a crop duster that's been 422 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,440 up armoured and had some munitions strapped to the wings. 423 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,960 But it's clearly very different than the A10. 424 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:29,600 And I was told by L3 Harris at the recent Army aviation 425 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,680 Conference that they will have an OA 1K flying at the Soft Week 426 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,040 conference in Tampa, which is happening in May. 427 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,160 So if anyone's in that area. You could get to see. 428 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,160 The Sky Raider 2 flying around Greg, As we've mentioned a 429 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,640 couple times, the A10 has survived a few attempts at 430 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,880 retiring it over the past few years. 431 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,520 What has kept it alive throughout those attempts and 432 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,280 and what are some of the new ways that the Air Force has 433 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,120 tried to employ it during that time? 434 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,880 Yeah, certainly, Ryan. And I think I'd like to give a 435 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,080 bit of a counterpoint as well to the A10. 436 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,400 I mean, as iconic as the aircraft is, as survivable as it 437 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,520 is, there is kind of the sense that it is yesterday's 438 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,840 aeroplane. And, you know, the Air Force has 439 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,240 been working to try to, you know, retire it. 440 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,320 But one of the issues that stands in their way is that it's 441 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,600 a very iconic aircraft. And it also probably the main 442 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,040 thing going for the A10, in addition to its awesome 443 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,400 firepower, is it has extremely strong backing in Congress, 444 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,840 particularly in Arizona where there's a major A10 base, and 445 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,200 also in places like Georgia and Michigan where also a 10s are 446 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,040 deployed. So the congressman and senators 447 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,480 from those regions are very supportive of keeping the A10 448 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,600 because it's basing it's jobs. It's that kind of thing. 449 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,000 Another curious thing about it is previous defence secretaries 450 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,000 have tried to kill the A10, but now Pete Hegseth has come in and 451 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,520 and said he loves it. I mean, he tweeted when the Air 452 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,280 Force secretary announced of the day that the A10 was going to 453 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,560 get an additional year, Hegseth was right out there to say that, 454 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,000 you know, he loves the aircraft. So the political backing I think 455 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,480 is very strong. But that said though, I, you 456 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,400 know, over the recent years, I've had this real sense that 457 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,040 it's almost been an aircraft, that it's been looking, looking 458 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,840 for a mission, OK. So if you look at some of the 459 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,480 missions it's doing or it's been put up for, OK Boat Hunter and 460 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:25,320 the Strait of Hormuz, a lot of other platforms can do that. 461 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,800 You don't need this flying tank with a 30 millimetre gun to do 462 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,280 that. Drone killer. 463 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,280 OK, so so many 10s of markings. They've shot down Shaheds, 464 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,040 great. But you know, helicopters with 465 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,840 door Gunners can do that. Other fighter aircraft can do 466 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,680 that. You can put a lot of advanced 467 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,880 precision kill weapon systems on a standard fighter. 468 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,920 They can take out drones. Decoy carrier. 469 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,000 It's another one put forward for the A10. 470 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,800 You know, the miniature air launch DK, you drop these decoys 471 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,760 and they flood the air defences. Again, a lot of other platforms 472 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,400 can do that combat search and rescue. 473 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,840 Now, certainly I think in a fairly permissive environment 474 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,480 such as Iran, you know, the A10 will certainly have a role 475 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,840 there. But how much utility would it 476 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,840 offer in a big conflict in the Asia Pacific against, say, 477 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,520 China, where, you know, you maybe potentially have pilots, 478 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,200 you know, shot down at over the ocean or shot down over the 479 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,240 Chinese mainland? And that's a very different 480 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,560 proposition for the an aircraft like the a 10. 481 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,280 So yes, well it is great at this close air support and combat 482 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,640 search and rescue mission. I think it really depends on the 483 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,440 environment, you know where it's working and I would argue that 484 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,560 other ways of doing CSR maybe don't involve manned aircraft, 485 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,080 but perhaps Ccas, you know, where you have like a series of 486 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,400 Ccas, you don't mind if you lose a few and they're kind of 487 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,440 protecting a pilot. Now that's going to be a few 488 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,320 years in the future, but I think Ccas are ideal for this kind of 489 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,320 like dangerous, dirty, hazardous mission. 490 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,160 Another thing that's been covered this it's a great 491 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,280 aircraft for ACE, which is probably true. 492 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,040 That's agile combat employment because it can operate from a 493 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,800 steer strips. But again, the reason you have a 494 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:06,680 because you're fighting a pure competitor like China. 495 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,600 And how survivable will this aircraft be in that conflict? 496 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,000 And one of the more weird ones we wrote about a few years ago, 497 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,240 the US military made a big thing about it was protecting SSBNS 498 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,720 like ballistic missile submarines when they're leaving 499 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,400 port to go out to sea. And, you know, the idea is that 500 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,200 you have your A10 hovering around and the SSBN can, you 501 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,400 know, transit the littoral waters and head out to sea 502 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,960 safely. But there's a lot of other 503 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,840 systems you could do to protect the SSBN. 504 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,800 You could have some UAVs. You could have a few guys in 505 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,640 boats with guns. You could have helicopters doing 506 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,640 that mission. It just seems like kind of a 507 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,360 bizarre, weird overkill, like trying too hard to find a 508 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,320 mission for this aircraft. I guess too, like, I guess the 509 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,160 case is against the aircraft. You know you have tight budgets 510 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,200 and it's a very niche aircraft. As I mentioned before, it really 511 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,440 can only operate in low threat environments, like after the 512 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,600 integrated air defence system is taken down. 513 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,800 The gun, as amazing as it is, isn't as effective against 514 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,240 modern tanks that have composite armour. 515 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,960 The A10 Can you stand off Like Craig was talking about JDAM and 516 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,200 so forth just now, but a lot of other aircraft. 517 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,560 Every other aircraft really uses JDAM as well. 518 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,000 Old aircraft are hard to maintain. 519 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,000 Retiring would free up a lot of maintainers, and drones can 520 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,320 perform a lot of these roles without risking a pilot, as I 521 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,520 mentioned with the combat search and rescue. 522 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,880 So that's going to get me in trouble with the A10 community 523 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,440 and the fans, but just putting it out there. 524 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,240 Yeah, You know, it's funny, Greg, Speaking of fans, you 525 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,080 mentioned the Defence Secretary, Pete Hagseth. 526 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,600 It's really notable that as you mentioned, he's a supporter of 527 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,720 the A10 and he was a, a, a, a junior officer in the US Army 528 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,280 National Guard and deployed to Iraq during the Iraq war, during 529 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,520 the Global War on Terror. And A10 does have a sort of cult 530 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,960 following within the US Army and Marine Corps because it did 531 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,400 perform those close air support missions for troopers groups in 532 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,080 contact. And you know, where is it? 533 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:14,080 An F16 or an F15 might drop a precision munition from 10s of 534 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,760 thousands of feet up in the air. The A10 was always down and 535 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,520 close and had that very distinctive sound of the the 536 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,160 main gun firing. And so it really imprinted, I 537 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,040 guess you would say, in the minds of a lot of ground combat 538 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,440 troops from those conflicts. And that was a big reason why it 539 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,840 had such support in Congress is because every time the Air Force 540 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,200 would try and retire it, you'd have a bunch of Army and Marine 541 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,560 Corps veterans writing to their congressman or their senator and 542 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,440 telling them it's, you know, that it saved my life or my 543 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,480 friend's life or it saved our unit or, you know, that kind of 544 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:49,920 thing. So I think it's pretty 545 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,320 interesting that that Pete Hags has probably has either a direct 546 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,840 connection or kind of absorbed it through osmosis as someone 547 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,560 who was in in the Army in Iraq rather than on the Air Force 548 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,000 side. But I think one of the things 549 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,040 that I'm really watching for now that the Air Force is going to 550 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,400 extend service until 2030. So we've got a few years at 551 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,800 least before the A10 now retires. 552 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,640 What I'm watching for is to see if they restart pilot training 553 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,080 because as we mentioned earlier in the episode, the Air Force 554 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,880 graduated what it says was its last class of mission qualified 555 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,000 a 10 pilots. That happened at the beginning 556 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,440 of April. And now currently they plan to 557 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,040 shut down the A10 flight training score squadron sometime 558 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,320 in September around the end of the fiscal year. 559 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,560 So I spoke with Lieutenant Colonel Ryan Rudder, who's the 560 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,280 commanding officer of the 357th Fighter Squadron. 561 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,880 That's the unit that manages A10 flight training at Davis 562 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,840 Mountain Air Force Base in Arizona. 563 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,760 He told me that many existing A 10 pilots have already begun re 564 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,200 qualifying on new fighters, particularly the Lockheed Martin 565 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,120 F35 and the newest A 10 pilots which are known as wingman 566 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,880 within the Air Force, likely won't fly the Warthog for very 567 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,720 long. I shared with them from the 568 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,640 beginning, I think, you know, they have the unique perspective 569 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,640 of of being the last, you know, A10 wingman, which I think is 570 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,800 something to be, you know, very proud of that. 571 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,040 I think they'll take forward with them into their next 572 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,600 communities. But to your point, they won't be 573 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:29,240 a 10 pilots for their entire career based off of the current 574 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,440 plan and timelines, and so they'll most likely have about 1 575 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,520 operational assignment that they're able to to get through, 576 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,360 with many of them probably becoming 2 ship fight leads. 577 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,040 Like I mentioned before, they transition to another fighter 578 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,600 and the majority of them will transition to other fighters 579 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,880 with the F35 kind of being the primary cross training platform 580 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,320 that we'll that we're sending most of the A 10 pilots to. 581 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,160 There's opportunities in other other airframes as well. 582 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,080 We're sending some people F sixteens and occasionally F 583 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,360 fifteens, but for the most part F35 will be the community that 584 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,560 absorbs a lot of our A 10 pilots. 585 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,400 Kind of what I try to share with our wingman. 586 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,720 Is that part of their job or role? 587 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,880 Will be to. Take the lessons that they've 588 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,600 learned in close air support and combat, search and rescue and 589 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,960 forward air control these these primary a 10 mission sets and be 590 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,960 those subject matter experts in their follow on fighter as they 591 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,480 transition. Even if that fighter doesn't do 592 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,640 that as a primary mission or role, it's important to kind of 593 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:40,080 keep the institutional expertise and some of that culture alive. 594 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,400 And so I think they'll, I think they'll do a great job taking 595 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,520 that mission forward. Why is the F35 kind of the 596 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,120 primary destination? Is that just a mass thing? 597 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,520 That's where. It is, yeah. 598 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,080 It's just, yeah, it's just the numbers. 599 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,440 Since that aircraft, you know, is still building out and we're 600 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,080 still producing more F-30 fives, the biggest we'll say community 601 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,480 or airframe for absorption of a 10 pilots will be the F35. 602 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,800 And again, that was Lieutenant Colonel Ryan Rudder, commander 603 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,800 of the US Air Force's 357th Fighter Squadron, which trains 604 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,199 and qualifies new A 10 pilots. Greg Craig. 605 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,360 Militaries around the world are famous for making plans and then 606 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,280 changing them on short notice. So do you think that's what 607 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,760 we're likely to see with the plans for the A10 retirement? 608 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:28,840 Yeah, Ryan, I think it is finally coming to the end of its 609 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,080 days. As KC mentioned, you know, they 610 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,080 only extended it out to 2030. Look, the aircraft's iconic. 611 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,719 It has some unique attributes and it certainly has nostalgia 612 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,159 value both among those who fly it and the ground troops, as you 613 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:46,920 mentioned, right? But I feel that, you know, as we 614 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,800 things advance with, you know, collaborative combat aircraft 615 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,159 and drones, there's just going to be more automated, safer ways 616 00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:56,159 to do, you know, the A10's mission. 617 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:59,520 But one thing, just to Colonel Rutter's point, you know, the 618 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,840 knowledge of the A10 community when they move to either F-30 619 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,120 fives or whether they're working with Ccas, I mean that learning 620 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,560 of the A10 will, you know, certainly influence operations 621 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,880 with new aircraft and CCA. So I think even though the A10 622 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,880 might not physically be in the Air Force for long, I think it's 623 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,840 legacy will certainly live on. And as I said, you know, I'd 624 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,120 really like to get the titanium bathtub, but if I can't, a 625 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,080 cocktail shaker made from one of the shell cases of a 30 626 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,360 millimetre round would be fine as well. 627 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,040 Yeah, just make sure it's not one of the depleted uranium 628 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,000 ones. Yeah. 629 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,280 Definitely not Craig. Any last thoughts? 630 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,200 Yeah, I, I would agree. I mean, I, I think, I think it, 631 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,560 you know, it's getting a small extension, but I think this 632 00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:46,320 probably really is getting towards the final chapter now. 633 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,760 So as you said in the introduction, the fleet size has 634 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,360 pretty much halved within the last decade and the last pilots 635 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,040 are coming through. So yeah, you you can see the end 636 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,080 of it now. So, I mean, despite all the 637 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,680 impressive upgrades and structural modifications that 638 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,960 have gone on the jet over the past last few years, you can't 639 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,960 get away from the fact that they're old jets. 640 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:12,040 We're talking 42 to 46 years old for the fleet and they they just 641 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,560 can't go on forever. That said, I bet President 642 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,240 Zelensky would love to have been able to get hold of some for 643 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:21,400 Ukrainian Air Force service. And just sort of note on the 644 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,960 Pete Hegseth loving the A10. Well, you know, if he didn't 645 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,360 have a 10 in Sandy, he couldn't get in his great vengeance and 646 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,800 furious anger quote from Pulp Fiction, could he? 647 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,000 So yeah, it's it's a great jet. But I think unfortunately the 648 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,560 the time comes for all of us. All right, guys. 649 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,000 Well, it's been great to talk with you and a really 650 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,200 interesting discussion, but we're going to have to leave it 651 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,720 there. So we'll see you next time and 652 00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:47,600 take care. 810 Forever man. Cheers everybody next time. 653 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,240 Well, thanks everyone. You've been listening to Flight 654 00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:55,960 Global Focus, which is a production of Flight Global with 655 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,080 audio editing by Lucy Johnson. If you want to get in touch with 656 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,480 us or for commercial opportunities related to the 657 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,560 podcast, please e-mail podcast at flightglobal.com. 658 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,200 Listen, rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your 659 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,440 podcast. And please join us again next 660 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,360 week for more in depth analysis covering the latest developments 661 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,520 in airlines, defence and aerospace. 662 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,360 I'm Ryan Finnerty, and we'll see you next time for Flight Global 663 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:18,960 Focus.