1 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,000 Welcome to Flight Global Focus, your essential podcast for 2 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,040 trusted aviation insight. I'm US Aerospace Managing Editor 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,080 John Hemmerdinger, and this week we're looking at some recent 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,120 propulsion sector developments in different parts of the globe, 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,720 Europe, Russia and right here in the USA. 6 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:27,560 These developments involve some familiar but also some less 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,960 familiar power plants and a mix of conventional and 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,760 unconventional technologies. With me is European Aerospace 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,320 editor Dominic Perry, who has been learning about Rolls Royce 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,200 exploration of hydrogen power. Hello, Dominic. 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,600 John, glad to be here. Yeah, Thank you for being here. 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,840 I also have with me Air Transport Editor David Kaminsky 13 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,840 Morrow. And he has an update about 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,400 starting us off with some Russian power plants, progress 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,400 that's being made with a domestic engine programme there 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,880 that David's been covering. David, why don't you tell us 17 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:06,240 about that? Hello John. 18 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,680 The situation in Russia has obviously been very difficult 19 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,040 with the country's aerospace industry labouring under 20 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,880 international sanctions, but there it does seem to have been 21 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,120 some progress in the last couple of weeks. 22 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:25,600 The Avid Vigatel PD8, which is part of the family of engines. 23 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,680 The PD is a Russian abbreviation for prospective engine and the 24 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:35,120 number 8 signifies the 8 tonne 8000 kilogramme thrust level. 25 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,880 That engine's been developed for the Yakovlev SJ100, which is an 26 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:47,160 import substituted version of the Superjet 100 with some of 27 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,720 its all of its foreign systems replaced by domestic ones. 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,880 And that includes replacing the previous Franco Russian Sam 146 29 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,440 engines and United Engine Corporation, which is which is 30 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:01,880 developing. That power plant has just 31 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,880 completed certification testing for the PD8, which has been 32 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,000 flown on various SJ100 prototypes as as well as the 33 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,800 Elysian 76 test bed and it's spent about 1400 hours airborne 34 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,840 PD eights. It's brought in some new 35 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,680 technologies like materials for turboline blades, which offer 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:24,880 greater resistance to high temperatures. 37 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,920 And it's been undergoing the kind of kind of demanding tests 38 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:31,000 that you'd expect for for engine development. 39 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:36,720 So icing and bird strike the blade out, test water ingestion, 40 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,160 hail ingestion and so on and so on. 41 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,760 With all that completed, it's now a matter of submitting the 42 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,240 documents to Rosaviazia, which is the Russian Federal Oversight 43 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,320 Authority, and waiting for a certification decision. 44 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:52,680 That's a significant step because Russia's planning to use 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,480 the PD8 not only for the SJ 100, but also for a RE engineering 46 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,880 programme on the amphibious area of 200 firefighting aircraft. 47 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,000 Yeah, David, the PD 8, that's a family of engines and a larger 48 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,680 version is pretty critical to Russia's main civil airline 49 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:10,800 project. Do I have that right? 50 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,120 How's that going? Well, yes, the, the, the PD 8 is 51 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,120 like the younger brother, if you like of the, of the PD 14, which 52 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,840 is the medium sized version. And that engine's designed for 53 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:27,960 the MC21 narrow body, which is kind of Russia's answer to the 54 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,040 to the A320. Yeah, the engine was originally 55 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,800 intended as an optional alternative to the Pratt and 56 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:39,480 Whitney geared turbofan, the PW 1400 G, but sanctions have 57 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,320 obviously put the kibosh on that plan. 58 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,120 The PD 14's already been certified, but because of the 59 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,440 sanction situation, the MC21 programme has had to undergo its 60 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,880 own import substitution effort and that's delayed entry into 61 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,360 service. So although the MC21 first flew 62 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,760 with the PD14 engines back in December 2020, the airframe and 63 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,880 engine combination still hasn't achieved certification. 64 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,840 Only about 1/3 of the certification flights have been 65 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,160 completed. And that's according to the head 66 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,360 of state technology firm Rostek, Sergei Chernozov, who's who's 67 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,120 just had the unenviable task of telling the Russian President 68 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,079 Vladimir Putin that the MC21 certification has been pushed 69 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:25,160 back again to next year. Incidentally, he also mentioned 70 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,280 that the SJ 100 is about 80% of the way through it's 71 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:30,440 certification flights and they're still aiming for 72 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,720 certification this year. Yeah, David, interesting it. 73 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,920 It seems a bit premature to talk about the future when these 74 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,840 engines are not certified yet, at least not with the aircraft 75 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:43,640 that they're going to be powering. 76 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,920 But are there any other developments in the pipeline 77 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,800 coming out of Russia, engine developments? 78 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:50,800 Yeah. Well, I think the, I think the 79 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,640 most notable future programme is kind of the big belly goat 80 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,560 graph, if you like, of the PD family, which is the PD-35. 81 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:02,120 And that's a proposed high thrust variant. 82 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,160 And that would be quite a substantial development for the 83 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,360 domestic civil engine industry because even though Russia has 84 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,560 built wide body aircraft like the Ilish in 86 and 96, it's not 85 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,160 really built an equivalent to the engines that you'd find on 86 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,840 the big Boeing and Airbus wide body twins. 87 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,840 There's been work on technology and core demonstrators for the 88 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:28,000 PD-35, but the engine at the moment is really a solution 89 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,080 looking for a problem. There's no specific application 90 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,560 for it. The proposed COMAC C929, which 91 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:40,040 is like a Chinese 777 if you like, had been a possibility but 92 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,960 that seems to have faded now that the C929 is becoming very 93 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,080 much a Chinese driven project rather than the original Russian 94 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,000 Chinese partnership. The other prospect is an engine 95 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,280 that's called the PD 26 and that emerged as a potential power 96 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:00,720 plant last year when United Aircraft drew up initial 97 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:05,480 proposals for a twin engine wide body family around the size of 98 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,840 Boeing 787. Thanks David. 99 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,280 I had mentioned at the top of the programme that Rolls Royce 100 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:18,040 it's experiments with hydrogen fuel and Dominic has been 101 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:23,040 looking into that lately. I believe there was a, a test 102 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:24,360 recently. Dom what? 103 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,800 What can you tell us? Yeah, that's right. 104 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,280 So Rolls Royce has been looking at the potential of hydrogen 105 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:33,200 combustion since about 2021, probably before that. 106 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,520 But this is the the latest, latest set of projects in the 107 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:42,760 research and innovation space. And this latest ground run was 108 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,440 really the culmination of that effort. 109 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,440 So how many engines has Rolls Royce run on hydrogen? 110 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,240 Do we know? Yeah, I mean it is just three or 111 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,800 although you could look at it the other way around and 112 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,880 actually it's run three, which is a great achievement. 113 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:03,680 So the first of those was an AE 2100, which is the engine that 114 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:09,920 powers the C130 aircraft, the Lockheed Martin transport. 115 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,760 Oddly enough that that engine has a an interesting history of 116 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,800 that particular engine in that it was used prior to these tests 117 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,080 for an I'll fated programme called EFAN X which was going to 118 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:23,880 be run with Airbus before it got cancelled. 119 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,240 So it's nice they they have found a decent use for it. 120 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,560 Anyway. They ran that particular engine 121 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,960 in 2022 at Boscombe Down in the UK. 122 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,040 It was relatively rudimentary, so the engine itself was 123 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,200 obviously as sophisticated as it gets, but a lot of the equipment 124 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,080 around it, the fuel system for example, was more an industrial 125 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,720 rather than aerospace grade. So that should be seen as a 126 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,080 concept demonstrator. Can we run an engine on hydro? 127 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,960 Can we run a modern engine on hydrogen? 128 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,960 So with that out of the way, this was followed by a Pearl 15. 129 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,240 It was tested in Darwitz in Germany where it's built. 130 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,000 So the Pearl 15 is business jet engine and they wanted to test 131 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,040 the non propulsive functions that normally run on kerosene or 132 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,640 jet fuel, cooling the oil system, moving hydraulic 133 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,720 components, that sort of thing in order to check that that 134 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,120 would still work without any kerosene in the system so that 135 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,040 there was no hidden fuel tank that was secreted away somewhere 136 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,360 in the engine. And the last engine is another 137 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,000 Pearl 15, which this time was run at NASA's test site in 138 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,240 Stennis in Mississippi, which incorporate a lot of the 139 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,520 learnings and the modifications from those earlier tests. 140 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:36,840 What kind of modifications are we talking? 141 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,480 About they are mostly to the combustion system, the fuel 142 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,720 nozzles and the combustor can as they put it. 143 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,720 It's almost a cliche, but everyone knows that hydrogen 144 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,000 burns very readily. I mean think Hindenburg clearly, 145 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,440 but it also burns in a different way to jet. 146 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,800 So the flame speed, how fast that flame spreads, is much 147 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,800 quicker. So a lot of the testing was 148 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,800 about how you control the combustion process, not simply 149 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:03,960 answering the question, can we burn hydrogen? 150 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,600 Because the answer is clearly yes. 151 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,600 Right. And and how long did the test 152 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:08,560 last? So. 153 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:11,640 The test of that particular engine, the runtime, was 154 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,600 actually a few 10s of hours as Rolls Royce put it. 155 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,000 But that doesn't really account for the multiple rig tests and 156 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,320 other research. It's run in the UK and elsewhere 157 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:25,240 simply to get to that point. So it was very much backed by 158 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,880 all that research. So I think when they came to run 159 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,200 the engine, they they were fairly confident that it would 160 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,800 behave in the way that they expected. 161 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,080 And the feedback from Rolls Royce was very much, it did do 162 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,360 that. It behaved just as the forecast 163 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,560 predicted, Yeah. I wonder what this means in 164 00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:46,800 terms of a potential launch of a new engine, a hydrogen engine by 165 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,480 Rolls Royce? Does this bring them closer it? 166 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,320 Brings them closer, but I don't think they are sufficiently 167 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,240 close that they could do it now. Roles is carrying out a lot of a 168 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,560 lot more research to optimise the combustion system and other 169 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:04,880 parts of the engine to account for the differences between 170 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,840 hydrogen and jet fuel. And there are other technologies 171 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,920 that need to be developed or adapted, changing the coatings 172 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,800 and components to increase their durability in that hydrogen 173 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,760 environment. It's also worth pointing out 174 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,120 there's no demand yet for such an engine. 175 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,040 The wider infrastructure investment, green hydrogen 176 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,040 production and distribution still hasn't really kicked off 177 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,880 and there remains a question mark about whether it can be 178 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:35,000 used, or maybe rephrase that, if it will be used as a future 179 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,040 aviation fuel. So the best way to to view Rolls 180 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,120 Royce's efforts is that it's preparing for the future, if 181 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,240 that's the direction the airframers decide to go. 182 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,640 Dom, let me ask you this. Would we know or do we know if 183 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,880 this is a technology or power plant that might be on something 184 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,600 like Airbus had talked about their hydrogen? 185 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:55,840 What? What was it called? 186 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,120 E You'll know the name 0. E Is there 0? 187 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,840 E So is it? Is it is that still on life 188 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,200 support? Well. 0 E is progressing. 189 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,800 Not as quickly as it was, very much with the slower than 190 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,120 expected infrastructure development in mind. 191 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,040 But the first 0 E aircraft won't use hydrogen combustion. 192 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,920 Airbus thinks it will use hydrogen fuel cells. 193 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,480 So Rolls Royce's research, which while beautifully illiterative, 194 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,320 is useful. Don't expect to see that 195 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,400 technology in service before let's say 2045, probably later. 196 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Right. All very interesting and it 197 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:40,160 brings me to GE. Of course GE has a number of 198 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,560 next generation technologies that they've been working on. 199 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:46,240 They've looked at hydrogen also, but they're, they're also 200 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,640 working on some other things like the open rotor. 201 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,120 But I was at GE in Cincinnati this week and they, they held a 202 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,240 press conference. It was actually in their 203 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,560 Evendale facility, which is just outside Cincinnati, but it's a 204 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:02,160 big leap centre development centre and a testing centre. 205 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,520 And we had a tour of the facility and spoke to some of 206 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,640 their executives and they weren't discussing too much of 207 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,040 the next generation stuff, but they were talking a lot about 208 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:17,560 LEAP and that's the engine for A320 Neos and for 737 Max, the 209 00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:21,520 GE and Safran produce under the CFM partnership. 210 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,400 The focus really was the durability issues. 211 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,840 Now we've all heard about the durability problems affecting 212 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,480 next generation engines and and leaps have been affected. 213 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,160 Of course, Pratt and Whitney's GTF has been affected 214 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,120 potentially, arguably much to A to a larger degree. 215 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:45,640 But what we have had is blade degradation and this comes 216 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,440 primarily in regions that are hot and dusty. 217 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,840 Those are the Middle East. They can be some places in India 218 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,160 or Asia. And GE has been introducing some 219 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,120 durability improvements that they say are really actually now 220 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,120 taking hold. The dust issue is interesting 221 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,280 because GE and the others have been dealing with dust problems, 222 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,920 of course for years. And they made the point that the 223 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,080 GE 90, which is several generations ago had some 224 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,800 durability issues in the very beginning of the programme. 225 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,720 And, and then GE came out with the GENX and that had some 226 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,200 significant dust ingestion durability problems when it was 227 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,760 first introduced. Now GE they're making a point of 228 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,800 stressing that they've done all this dust ingestion tests, which 229 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,160 is where they have a turbofan in a test cell and they have these 230 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,200 in Evendale, Ohio. And they they have developed a 231 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,240 dust that mimics what's found in the Middle East, is self 232 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,560 developed by GE and they injected into the engine and 233 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,360 they see how the engine performs. 234 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,320 Now those tests are ongoing, but GE does know that these types of 235 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,280 tests have have really led to significant improvements in 236 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,480 their wide body engines, particularly the GE and X. 237 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,320 And what it's allowed to do is that they can develop new parts 238 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,640 that allow the engines to go much longer between required 239 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,440 removal from wing and maintenance overhauls. 240 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,520 But clearly a wide the body engine isn't quite the same as a 241 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,040 narrow body engine. How does that work? 242 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,480 Tie into the reliability improvements plan for the leap, 243 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,800 Yeah. The leap is it's ongoing. 244 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,160 The problem happens because this dust gets sucked into the low 245 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,080 rather the high pressure turbine. 246 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,440 And the temperatures in there can cause the components to 247 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,440 degrade, especially when susceptible to dust. 248 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,760 Now these engines have what engineers called cooling pads. 249 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,800 And this is colder air that's within the turbine that is 250 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,920 supposed to cool the blades and the other components to a 251 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,720 temperature at which they will not melt or not degrade. 252 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,000 But those cooling pads are incredibly complex and when 253 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,080 they're not exactly perfectly right, that's when you get the 254 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,640 blade problems. G ES point is that all the 255 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,600 testing they did on the GENX and the testing that they're now 256 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,880 doing on the leaps, the dust testing has given them what they 257 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,120 described as a a complete or nearly complete understanding of 258 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:11,720 what's happening within the engines. 259 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,880 One of the their head of technology said that they have 260 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,880 cracked the code in understanding what happens and 261 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,600 we're dealing with tolerances that are minuscule, the width of 262 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,680 a human hair and how they direct these cooling paths with with 263 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,280 the geometry of the blades and the holes in the blades. 264 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:35,080 So they are saying that Leap durability is improving. 265 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,720 Their head of commercial aircraft engines, Muhammad Ali 266 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:45,080 says that the Leap 1A, that's the A320 version, A320 Neo. 267 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,560 He says that engine, that engines durability is now on par 268 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:56,040 with where CFM 56 was when the CFM 56 was in its first few 269 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,640 years of service. And he says that the Leap will 270 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,600 meet the CFM 56's ultimate durability record. 271 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,840 Now that engine, the CFM 56 is sort of a standard setter, 272 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,360 standard bearer. It is known for incredible 273 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,880 reliability. I've had airline CE OS tell me 274 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,600 that the new generation engines will will simply never be as 275 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,800 reliable as the CFM 56. The pressures are too high, the 276 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,200 temperatures are too high, which of course improve fuel 277 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,040 efficiency, but those high temperatures and pressures also 278 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,680 cause parts to degrade. GE is saying that's not the 279 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,600 case. They say give us time, wait and 280 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,280 see and be patient and your engines will have that same 281 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:39,640 level that's. Interesting. 282 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,560 I had an airline chief executive tell me once that the industry 283 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:48,560 had been spoilt by the CF 756, that it was too good, and that 284 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,440 anything following it was all automatically doomed to to come 285 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,920 in to be judged as a lesser engine against that one. 286 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,040 Wasn't there also an issue with cooking on fuel nozzles of the 287 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,520 Leap engines? That's right. 288 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:07,200 Cooking and this issue has been ongoing for several years. 289 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,480 And when the engines are shut down, there is still some level 290 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,680 of or some amount of fuel either in the nozzles or around the 291 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,560 fuel nozzles in the combustor. And the residual latent heat 292 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,440 within the engine causes that fuel to evaporate. 293 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,840 And what's left is coke and it can coat the nozzles. 294 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,360 And there were several instances in which LEAP engines on a 321 295 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:38,360 Neos had suffered power reductions, unanticipated 296 00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:41,280 uncommanded power reductions several years, I think it was in 297 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:47,040 20, I think it was in last year. And so this has proved to be a 298 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,560 problem. Now fixing this problem requires 299 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,320 replacing the fuel nozzles at intervals that we don't exactly 300 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:59,200 know, but that seem to be fairly frequent if not very frequent. 301 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,480 And to fix it, you do not need to remove the engine from the 302 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,080 wing, but it does require that operators take the engines out 303 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,520 of service for several days to to perform to perform the work. 304 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,720 GE in 2024 released a what they described as a fix or at least 305 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,360 just something that helps address the problem. 306 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,360 It's called a reverse bleed system and it's been described 307 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:25,960 as me as a a high tech fan that blows colder air back into the 308 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:31,400 engine after shutdown and hence addresses the problem of fuel 309 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,680 evaporation or minimises the fuel evaporation, minimises the 310 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,120 cooking. That same reverse bleed system 311 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:43,720 is now in development and nearly complete for the Leap 1B, which 312 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,360 powers the 737 Max. And apparently this year it's 313 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:49,920 going to be rolled out for the Leap 1B. 314 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:52,760 So good news for Leap operators then. 315 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,000 One of the interesting things that GE and Saffron are working 316 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,960 on through CFM is obviously the RISE Open Rota programme. 317 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:03,040 Was there any mention of that during your visit? 318 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,440 Yeah. Curiously, there was, I think no 319 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:12,800 mention of it at all. And during previous visits to GE 320 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,480 in recent years, that's been the focus. 321 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,920 Now why there was no mention of it, I don't know. 322 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,800 It could be that GE is is focusing or choosing to focus 323 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,520 and choosing to stress durability. 324 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,640 And in fact they they said that word about 100 times during the 325 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,040 visit. So they clearly want operators 326 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,520 to be happy with with what's out there now, which makes sense 327 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:45,440 because there has been a mood among some customers that GE and 328 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,800 Pratt and Whitney also better fix the current problems before 329 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,600 they start talking to us about future technology. 330 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,320 So that could be it. The rise, of course, has been 331 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,680 top of mind for GE otherwise. And as an open rotor, they say 332 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,480 it'll be something like 20% more efficient. 333 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,960 They've been working with Saffron and developing 334 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:09,560 demonstrators, and technology is still several years away from. 335 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,000 And we're talking twenty 30s for introduction on the next 336 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,160 generation narrow body if it happens, which is a big question 337 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,440 mark. So it is possible now that GE is 338 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:26,840 saving some rise news for the upcoming Farnborough Air Show or 339 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,760 maybe we won't hear much about it then we don't know. 340 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,120 But Farnborough would be the time. 341 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:32,760 So we will keep an eye out for it. 342 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,000 Great. Thank you, John. 343 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,360 Thank you, Dom, and thank you David. 344 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,440 Also, pleasure. John, thanks very much. 345 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,120 And that's it for us. You've been listening to Flight 346 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:46,800 Global Focus, which is a production of Flight Global with 347 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,920 editing by Lucy Johnson. If you want to get in touch with 348 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,360 us or for commercial opportunities related to the 349 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:56,280 podcast, please e-mail podcast at flightglobal.com. 350 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,280 Listen, rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your 351 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,240 podcast. I'm John Hemmerdinger for Flight 352 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,640 Global Focus. Join us next week for more in 353 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,560 depth analysis covering the latest developments in airlines, 354 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,040 defence and aerospace.