Welcome to Dear Social worker. I am your host, Lisa Ran, and I
am proud today to be bringing you our next episode from the
sunny place of Morocco. And I am joined by Mama, Lisa
Ran today and we're going to have a special episode today.
So hi Mum. Hi, Lisa.
Ran. Oh Lord, you already know it's
trouble. Why couldn't you just say hello?
Hi, Liz. That's that's usually how I say
hi, Liz. You're right, Liz.
How are you feeling today, Liz? Did you sleep well, Liz?
Oh, welcome to Dear Social Work. It's your first time being on
the podcast. It's been going for nearly three
years. Wow, you've neglected me.
Haven't. You.
Oh my God. You've just neglected me.
Put me at the bottom of the pile.
I'm not worthy of an interview. What, Only because you've got no
choice but to sit in front of me on the?
Holiday, don't believe, don't don't believe I to put me on
your podcast. Don't believe what is being said
guys. Don't believe it?
You'll have to excuse all of the background noise.
We'll just let the domestics. Going on isn't.
There, Yeah, I mean domestic cleaning, not domestics as in
domestics you are talking to social worker.
But if you have to clarify these things, otherwise their radar
will go right up there. They're on holiday in Morocco
and there's domestics, they're witnessing domestic.
Can't even have a holiday without safeguarding issues.
I have to come a little birdie at the UK embassy.
Come a little birdie. So we are surrounded by birds at
the moment who are, it's very brave look, eating the crumbs
from our breakfast. Eating the crumbs that we've
given them. Given them, yes.
Not that we eat and leave crumbs.
Let's get to the interview. Speak for yourself.
My side at my side of the table screen.
I think your side has got a few crumb.
Look there, there, there. I can't.
That's just crumbs. I'm just going to point out,
guys, because you can't see what I can see.
What I can see is that you've got robot pieces of bread.
Go on with. Me.
Go on. I know you've got to come back.
We've got. We have rolled up.
Pieces of bread we I was, I was. Directed to the station of the
bread rolls and told to bring as many bed rolls as possible.
And butter. I can neither confirm or deny
that. And I have brought a few bread
rolls. Actually, no, there's four,
there's four, there's four. And lots of butter. 3 for you, 1
for me. Yeah, of course.
So the reason why I thought I would have you on the podcast
today is just to get a bit of insight from you about what it's
like being a close family member of someone who is a social
worker. Being that you are not from the
social work world. I know when I felt, in fact, let
me ask you this, what was your thoughts when I first said, you
know something, I'm going to go and complete my masters in
social work? I was very happy he was.
I was very happy. I thought you'd have gone for a
PhD so I could call you Doctor Lisa.
They're still timed. They're.
Still timed. That's very true.
No, I was very happy. I thought it was a very good
positive move. And anything, you know, what
we're like in our culture, anything educational cannot be a
bad thing. So you wouldn't get no
complaints from me? Yes, I'd I'd pack you off.
But you virtually did. Come on, come on, let's go.
Let's go. You can't change your mind now.
Did you have any insight into what that career would be about?
Not really. Really, because I hadn't really
known or had any contact with social work, social workers.
So I, I didn't really have any idea.
I knew you'd be doing something positive and good for the
community, but I I didn't have any idea of the extent of the
challenges that you would face. What was your what is your first
memory of the challenges that I faced?
I mean your training was very good.
You was you. You always talk very positively
about your training. There are obviously issues that
came up in terms of what you had to deal with, either with
families or siblings, siblings or families, some of those kind
of challenges, but I just saw it as part and parcel of the
course, really. I didn't.
I thought that's what you signed up for.
You may not have realized the extent of it, but that's exactly
what you signed up for. Very demanding, very demanding
emotionally and physically, and you had to travel quite a long
way as well. Yeah, when I first, yeah.
So I lived in Nottingham for two years to do the training and
then my first post was. Leicester.
Leicestershire and I was, you know, at the time living well
over an hour away. So that that was really taxing.
I remember that. But I had a really good manager.
Yeah, really, really good manager.
Sit in contact with them now. And you had great training.
I had great training. And having the best of training
is so important at the outset because then a lot of the
challenges that you face as you kind of move through your
career, you'll have a good idea how to deal with them.
Yeah, because you have the training, you've had the, you've
been exposed to whatever that challenge is, and your training
automatically kicks in when you're in that sort of
challenging environment. 11 memory I had of you was saying
to me, I was saying we'll have to do a home visit and give that
back to you. Me, I did a whole busy and
you're like, does that mean you're going into people's
houses? Yeah, That's that's you're like
you're going on your own. Yes, I'm going like on another
own. So it's like, let me get this
straight. You've got to go into people's
houses that you don't know. In a city that you don't know
and be faced with all kind of unknowns, let's just say no.
That was very worrying for me. And it, it's it, it always
remain worrying for me. Just the idea of you as a single
female. Sometimes you did have someone
with you, whether it's a trainee or someone else, depending on
what the challenge was. But it was always a concern to
me because you do hear of these stories of social workers been
harmed going into environments where people don't really want
them to be there. And as much as you go with your
professional hat on with the best of intentions, whoever you
go to see may not see you as being with the best of
intentions. And yeah, that, that's always
worrying. I think it'll be worrying for
anyone, whether you're a mother or not.
What advice would you give to someone who had the same or has
the same worries? Same worries as me.
Yeah. I'm not sure I could give them
any advice, to be honest. I think you've just got to have
faith. You've got to have faith and
make sure you know who all the managers are.
The managers are. You've got their telephone
numbers. So if anything happened to you,
pick me. You know exactly who to contact.
You've got to make sure, yeah, you know who people are.
And I did meet some of your managers.
I didn't meet them. Yeah, your first where you
trained, I met them all, so I had a good scope on everybody.
I also met some of your work colleagues.
I had a good scope on them as well.
I didn't know you were doing that at the time, but hey.
Huh. Yeah.
No. But I think it's important
because, you know, you may raise concerns with your managers
about certain things and they may not necessarily see it the
same way, and you still have to go out and do what you have to
do. Yeah.
So ultimately, if anything happens, the first people who
are going to deny any responsibility are going to be
your managers. They're going to say you didn't
follow protocol, that's not what they asked you to do, and yada
yada yada. No working policy.
So for me, as someone on the outside and as you know, Mum,
it's important to know who's who.
It's important to know who's who.
I saw that whole look on your face, like it's important.
Like in some bus. Yeah, Kiss.
The ring, Yeah. It's important to know who's who
so that if anything hits the fan, you have a good idea of
what you were told, not in detail, but what you were told
to do, where you were told to go, what your concerns were when
you raised them and what the outcome of that was.
So I, I don't know you, you had a lot of St. smarts though.
Yes, you have a lot of St. smarts.
And you know when something is potentially a danger.
Yeah. And you know when to get out.
It's like Mum. I'm leaving.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you just. You just took my arm.
I'm like wait are. You talking my arm?
You took my I've got mum, we've got to go.
I don't care. You shove me in the back, it's
like. You're showing me a particular
direction like. No, mum, let's go, let's go.
I'm like, OK, I'm not arguing. So one thing I think is
important, though, is when you're told by your adult child
or even your young child that something is wrong, you got to
take it seriously. You can't disregard it.
Thinking it's either drama or truth is being bent or yeah,
yeah, absolutely. So whatever you said to me about
the issues that you face, always, always take them
seriously. And I'm, I'm an awful warrior
for your safety. It doesn't matter where you are
unless you're with, you know, your father or a whole bunch of
family members or someone I know that I can trust.
And it doesn't really matter how old you are.
I'm an awful warrior. But I do fall back on the fact
that you're very smart. You're very astute and you read
a situation very well. So when you perceive a threat or
something's going wrong, you're so slick with it in terms of,
yeah, I just need to go and make a phone call and I'll come back.
Morning. We're we're going to close our
restaurants. Oh, OK.
Yeah. Oh, OK, OK.
Yeah, that's fine. We're just recording a podcast.
So we'll walk in tall. Yeah.
So maybe. Yeah, yeah, All right.
Just kicking other people. We're just walking away because
I'm not, I'm not in a position to edit the podcast guys, we've.
Just. Been kicked out of the
breakfast. Yeah.
So we're just, we're just walking away.
But yeah, sometimes you have to just say, oh, I've got to make a
phone call. Yes.
And you? Yes.
Or or we could sit my mum we. Can sit.
On the other side, can't. We yeah.
Or. Or my mum's calling me.
Or. My manager's calling.
Me or something else? Yeah.
And you slip out and you you never come back.
But slip away. Not entirely true.
One has to go back. But yeah, with, with
reinforcements, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, so I've, I've got a, a certain degree of confidence
when I perceive a situation that could be dangerous for you.
I just have to stop and think, you know, so I don't worry
myself to death. We can sit over here somewhere.
So I don't worry myself to death.
That you, you're very good at perceiving when there's a risk
and there's a danger. And again, I think that's part
of your training as well, isn't it?
Yes. To perceive the risk and to act
on it. So I I would say rather than
giving advice to any parent, I would say no, your, your child,
your adult child and have confidence in the fact that they
can negotiate their way out of certain out of most situations.
And if they can't, they'll pick up the phone, they'll send you a
quick text or whatever the case may be to let you know that a
they need help or to have you call somebody.
So I'm, I'm very confident that you've got all of that about you
so. What about when I said I was
visiting prisons? Oh no, Oh no.
All I could think of is whooping and hollering and whistling and
and dark. Is that here you're going?
Where are you? Going doors and yeah, yeah, no,
that's not for me. I've been, when I used to, I
used to work for the police many, many years ago and I've
had the occasions I worked at three different police stations
and I had the occasion to go down to the cells.
It wasn't the same as a prison proper, yeah, but it was, it was
a yeah. It was a place where people were
held either awaiting charge or bail or whatever the case may
be. And it wasn't nice, it wasn't
pretty. And you, you weren't often
allowed to go down there as an employee.
It, it was for the custody Sergeant and the police who
brought in the, the prisoners if you like.
But no, I, I, I don't like that. I think even men of grit, grown
men of Greece with experience of the world, don't like to be in
that environment anyway. So why would I even go happy?
Why would I even be happy? Or whether it's part of your job
or not to say yeah, go for it. Yeah.
No, I don't think it matters who you are if you're not, if you're
not from that world and you're not used to that environment,
it's a hostile place. It's a.
Very hostile place. And it's actually all the things
that you said it, it was I, I remember it now, where they open
these, you know, these massive gates.
And as you're walking through to wherever it is, you've got, it
doesn't matter where you're going, how short or long that
walk is. You know, they are banging on
those and those whistling and whistling and shouting and how
gorgeous and you know, all of this stuff.
You don't know what you're wearing.
Right now I don't feel gorgeous. Right now I feel very
threatened, vulnerable, isolated.
Yeah, it's, it's not great down there, but.
And the people you go to me in there, you know, you, you, you
for me, I didn't have any expectation.
And one of the times I was training, one of the times I was
in, the other time I had to pick up a young person.
The other time I had to visit a young person.
There's lots of different ways, you know, you, you have to end
up visiting there. And there was this guy was in
there for domestic violence, and he was just as vile as the
paperwork suggested. Yeah.
And you would think could he'd been in there for quite a while.
Yeah, an assessment had to be completed because he was due to
come out, blah, blah, blah. And sorry to say, but he was
just had no more. Money to society.
Yeah. I mean, generally we wouldn't
write that in the paperwork, man.
Yeah, we have recordings going. Beaming out, beaming out.
Yeah. You know, he he was he was just
vile to woman, the woman learn a vile to his children and he was
just unpleasant to be around and.
Were you on your own just? Just ask, no, I was not on my
own. No, he was too dangerous.
Yeah, he, that particular guy was too dangerous.
And he had a real vendetta against women.
And you know, there's a whole plethora of background, very
checkered history, etcetera, etcetera.
And he was all those things that unfortunately, you'd read.
Sometimes when you meet certain people, they are, they may be
the charmer. You know, it's not saying that
the abuse didn't happen and all the rest of it.
But what you see is not necessarily what you read.
Sometimes the two don't actually match at the same time.
But this particular guy, he was right across the board, you
know, no more, no care, no respect, rude, obnoxious.
He was braggadocious about what he had done and, you know, was
quite clear he wanted to make friends with people who had done
things that he'd done. And you know, it was, it was
quite disturbing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So for for anyone that is a family member at the time, but
you know at any point, knowing that you're likely to meet
people who have done real horrible, vile things, it can't
be an easy position to be in. I know that you didn't tell me
all the places that you'd been. Oh, gosh, no.
You know, in, in terms of part of your job, that is.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because you knew that I would be very concerned and worried about
it. Yeah.
And and also, I suppose I might have given you a little bit of
angst about it as well. You may not have perceived the
danger at the time. I don't know, until you've
actually got in the environment itself.
And in some cases where I would just say at least I'm very
worried or be careful or whatever the case may be, you
may not have perceived it as a danger until I put it in your
head. I don't know whether that was
the case or not. But some of the places that you
did tell me that you had to go to, it was I, I just had to pray
that you came out because a lot of the, the circumstances, you
don't have any control and, and you don't know the people
surrounding you. They know you're a social
worker. They know you're coming to see
someone and it's a child issue and they've got their own
perception of what you've come to do.
And that person who you've gone to see may have told them that
the social workers come in today, they're going to take my
kids off me and the RDRDR. So they have a good idea of why
you're there, but you don't necessarily know that and you're
kind of walking into that environment.
So yeah, it's it's a dangerous business.
It is a very dangerous business. And it's not as if you can carry
something to defend yourself like the police.
They and they are in a dangerous business as well, and they get
to carry their truncheon or their Taser or whatever the case
may be. And they're trained for it.
Yeah, but you lot, you go with your computer and you find and.
And the plan is though, you know, sit near the door, don't
sit with you back to the door. And you know, call if you need
help. And there might be a dog, some
kind of vicious dog, sitting there guarding the door.
Yeah. And you haven't got any kind of
self defence training to help yourself and you just left to,
to the devices of wherever you end up.
So it's not great. It's, it's what you know,
whatever your your child chooses to do in life, it's what they
choose to do in life. You just have to support them
the best, you know how. But it doesn't mean that you're
not concerned and worried about the environment and also the
fact that sometimes it seems some of the managers don't
really take into account the issue of your safety.
Bless here. Not in the, not in the true
sense, because it's part and parcel of the job thinking that
they take and they say, well, you've got the long working
policy, you've got your mobile phone.
It's not enough. Yeah.
It's not enough. Depending on who it is you're
going to see, you need some training.
It's a bit like putting a police officer in a situation to deal
with rioting, let's say. Yeah.
And they haven't been equipped with the right training.
Yeah. And the right equipment and the
right technique of how to deal with it.
Whereas you're expected to go in with your phone and your
computer and your loan working policy, which is not going to be
any good to you once you're backed up in the situation.
And you're expected to deal with that situation, Yeah.
And when something happens to you, now you got me waxing lyric
on that. When something happens to you,
the first people who are going to deny, deny, deny are going to
be the people who sent you out. It really is.
And then you end up as the family member having to fight
the system to prove that they didn't take due care, they
didn't exercise due care and attention.
So yeah. I mean, for me, you know,
hearing you speak at the time, what what's interesting is some
of these things, I definitely wasn't as worried as you were
listening to you speak now because all the time you gain.
Confidence. Going into certain spaces and
dealing with certain people. But that's a danger.
It is because you get comfortable, you think I can
deal with anything. I've dealt with the worst of the
worst, and I've put a brave face on it.
And, you know, I show them that I'm not scared.
But you're going to meet somebody who is used to that and
they'll see you as a lone female because mostly it's female,
isn't it? Yeah.
I mean, I don't know what the ratio is in terms of employees.
It's. Definitely more female than.
Male, yeah. So I would imagine as well, the
more experience you have, the more confidence they have to
send you out on your own to to deal with a lot of challenging
situations. And I guess the manager will
perceive that you're more confident and then that
increases their capacity in their minds essentially.
Out. Yeah.
Yeah, She'll know exactly what to do.
Yeah. She's dealt with, you know,
bigger and better people over the last 20 years, and she's
always come out unscathed. But there might be just this one
person who maybe, as you said before, on the surface charming,
amiable and all the rest of it, but really, underneath, they're
planning something much worse. Yeah.
Yeah, much worse. And the truth is, you know, they
haven't been sweetness and light to be involved with us.
No. No.
There's gonna be something that have some risk or danger, and if
it's of risk or danger to a child, yes, of course it's gonna
be risk or danger to us. Absolutely of.
Course, and if they've reached the point of no return, where
they've got absolutely nothing to lose, if you're gonna there's
a potential for you to take their child off them, then they
might as well go all out, mightn't they?
Because that might be the only thing they do have in life.
Yeah. And they feel give to them
perfect. Give respect for whether they're
doing it safely. Yeah, yeah.
But I'm I'm proud of what you've achieved.
Though. In that industry, you've done
well, you've made a difference to a lot of people's lives and
you enjoyed your job. It was very challenging and you
did burn out and that wasn't good at a very young age, in
your 20s. That's definitely not good
because once you reach burn out, then you're going to go to it
again because you just haven't got at that stage all the skills
to kind of recalibrate and combat time and time again.
It's going to affect you sooner or later.
So burnout was a major, major issue at such a young age.
But you were very keen you you loved the job I did and you
ended up having to go to different places.
I remember once you went to Scotland.
Oh yeah, yeah. We had to do an.
Assessment in Scotland. And then you went, you went
somewhere else. I think it was near London,
Kent. Was it Kent?
Got back at like 4:00 in the morning or.
Something. Yeah, that's the one where the
community came out and surrounded.
You lost. Yeah, they.
Yeah, they knew that they were. It was, it wasn't my case.
We were there supporting someone else who got a a full care or
was it interim? I can't remember one of the two.
And yeah, we had to collect the children.
I think it was two or three children.
We had two or three cars, the nearest placement was Kent based
on needs and all the other stuff that goes along with it.
I'm just giving context for those that are listening.
And so myself and my colleague, he was a gentleman.
He You weren't keen like I was driving down with a guy from
work by myself, you. Didn't know him.
Yeah. Because just because you work
with somebody don't mean you know them, do you?
Yeah, but this is how your mind works on no scenes, but it it is
factual. But you think, you know, there's
a level of safety because there was there an employee.
But the truth of the lottery is we got down there about half
eleven, 12:00 at night simply because the community surrounded
us when we got there. And they were like, you know,
you should be ashamed of yourself, blah, blah, blah.
And it was very difficult because you're there to support
your colleague. It's kind of.
Looking to do with you. Yeah, really.
They don't necessarily. Not the intricacies either.
You're just there to support. We need yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we have to go in. We have to get suitcases out.
You've got parents, you know, not very happy with the whole
community. You could see there were very
close knit community and they surrounded.
We have three cars and these men all surrounded these cars,
women, children, the whole community.
It was, it was very intimidating, but we had to do
what we had to do and we did it with nobody getting hurt.
But it was very difficult. And then after all of that, you
have to then bring the child to where they need to go, settle
them in. And we didn't get back till
about four in the morning. And you were very.
Worried. About that, I don't think I
slept because all manner of things were going through my
mind. You had the police there though
didn't? You, No, because we were
dropping them to a placement. So no, it was, it wasn't.
Oh, actually, I think we actually, in terms of collecting
the children, we were contemplating calling the
police. I can't remember whether they
came, you know, because I remember the moment I saw all
these people as we, it was unfortunate.
Was a Grove as well. It was in the street.
So, you know, they run, yeah, yeah, they run.
They run their community and I'm sure we would have called the
police, but I can't recall. I can't remember.
I remember vaguely, I do remember vaguely you saying
something about the police. OK.
Being called, yeah, it would have made sense because we were
surrounded. Yeah, yeah.
But those, I mean to think of all the things you've done in
your, in your kind of early 20s, which included all of those
challenges, you've got to be commended for it.
And really and truly you should have been, as I'm sure a lot of
social workers, you should have been very cherished in that
industry, cherished and nurtured and encouraged and given all the
support necessary for you to flourish.
Because for me right now, you should be a service manager.
Absolutely. You've got the, you've got the
acumen, you've got the work ethic down to me, of course,
work ethic, you know how to deal with people and manage people
because of all the experiences that you had.
So for me, your position should be whether you're, you know,
late 30s or early 40s, whatever the case may be, the age is kind
of irrelevant. It's just your experience and
your acumen and the type of person you are.
For me, you definitely should be in that status, not having to.
Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with it because
obviously you know, you've been successful at it.
You should have been able to remain within your industry to
make a real difference. But you are making the
difference outside of it. But I think because it's what
you brought to the industry and your type of social working, you
should definitely have been encouraged and nurtured to stay
within the industry. Because ultimately you could
have been an advisor to social services, the government
department, rather than having to be pushed in that kind of a
corner where you feel you've got no choice.
It's just it's just wrong. Yeah, absolutely wrong.
But that's all another subject. But I do think that you, the
social working that you did, made a difference to society and
the people that you dealt with. And that's a good thing.
And that's what you went in there to do, and that's what
you've done. But there was far more for you
to do and that you could have done if you'd had the right
guidance and management around you.
And that's what they're what they're there to do, isn't it?
Not to chase people out of the out of the profession.
Right. They do.
So many others. Yeah, so many others.
It's. Wrong.
Yeah, it's wrong. And I think, I don't know, a lot
of managers need better training in terms of management.
Managing people. Yeah, yeah.
Because a lot of personal issues come into it.
What they believe and what they take personally, what their ego
is saying, you know, they don't want to look like XY and Z in
front of their colleagues. They forget how to manage
people. And it is very much a skill.
It's a skill managing people. Not everybody can do it.
A lot of managers in the position as manager, they're not
worthy of it. They may know their.
Craft. But knowing your craft, it's
like being a wonderful mathematician.
It doesn't necessarily mean you can go and teach that to, you
know, four or five year olds you might not have the skill to do.
And I think a lot of managers in your industry from all the
experiences you've talked to me about that you've had, they
haven't got the core essentials to manage people.
They just haven't got it. Otherwise the profession would
be in much better place than it is in terms of people having to
leave, in terms of people being referred for not conduct, for
what do you call it, the performance issue?
Oh, disciplinary. No.
You mean you mean to social work England?
Yeah, it's. Performance issues, isn't it?
Yeah, it's all conduct performance.
Yeah, it's got to raise an eyebrow.
I know if we're flitting from thing to thing here, but it's
got to raise an eyebrow the amount of people who are being
referred who are of colour. Yeah.
From what I've I've heard and from what you've told me, yeah,
they need to look, look into that.
Something's going wrong. Something's going and also just
not just coincidence, is it? No, coming back to one of your
point about, you know, it should be service, service manager, not
just me, but there's a whole bunch of people that should be,
could be service manager, but for whatever reason and there's
that block there. And we would also have more
diversity in service management because remember when I took you
to a conference, I won't name the conference, but I took you
to a conference, one of the first social work conferences.
And when I first stepped back from the frontline and I
remember like halfway through the day, he was like, where's
your peoples? As if, as if to say, you know,
for those who don't know and those listening, you know, in
Australia or wherever, meaning, you know, there's no other black
person or Asian people here. No diversity.
Whatsoever. And you were like, are you
telling me? This is what you said to me.
I don't know if you were like, are you telling me this is the
kind of environment you've been working in where there's
virtually no diversity? But The thing is, the
environment you work in, it's quite different when you go to
the conferences because you work with a lot of mix, a mix bag of
social workers, don't you? Yes.
And this is what they're saying is that there's plenty of global
majority social workers on the front line, but as you go up
that that number decreases significantly.
Yeah. Yeah, what they, what they need
to do Watch. That glass, please, please.
It's right. There, Yeah, what they need to
do is almost some kind of selection process.
I think they need to have some kind of quota.
I have to be careful what I say here.
I think the people who are of color or a mixture of people
from different ethnic backgrounds, those who have
shown an interest in management and shown management potential,
I think those people should be encouraged, picked and trained.
So there are some leadership horses that do something like
that. I think one of them and and I
know Frontline certainly had a course that I was a coach for
that were not necessarily specifically for a global
majority. There is that arm, but we're you
know giving them training etcetera for that.
But ultimately, those jobs have to be available.
Ultimately, whoever is on that jobs panel needs to score fairly
in order for that chance to be given.
What? I'm.
Saying are you saying there needs to be a separate army
simply for goals from the global majority interested in
management and there are jobs available receive.
They receive the appropriate encouragement and training and
when those posts become available, they be given a fair
crack at the whip at going for those posts.
But in order to even be able to apply for those posts, you've
got to be in a position to do that.
So even if it's just first year management, middle management,
whatever the case may be, I'm not saying that those should be
skipped and saying you should go through the same process as
everybody else. But because there's an imbalance
in the the number of black and ethnic minority social workers
in the upper kind of echelons of management, it's got to be
looked at because it's just going to go on like that for
year on year on year. Isn't.
It has been. It has been.
How is it going to change if you don't give people who've got the
potential and who've shown an interest in it the opportunity
to do it? It's got, it's got to be done,
it's got to be done. I know in my profession I was a
little bit lucky, I suppose, in that I was approached by one of
the managers to apply for management in a completely
different group. And I wasn't for it at first
because of the way it was done. It was kind of like a sideways
move and it was made just two of us that were chosen.
And that was because they wanted to fill a gap in another
department, not necessarily because they knew how you worked
and they knew that you have potential.
But that actually worked out very well for me.
It's given me the opportunity to be in management and to be
trained in that area and to actually excel in that area with
the potential of, you know, going hiring management.
Yeah, yeah. So that was.
Well, that opened the door to the other, yeah, other element,
the promo element. I don't know if you want to
share that, but that opened the door to the next stage.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, yeah. I mean, obviously I, I applied
for the, well, I did have to apply even though the
opportunity was presented to me and I, I didn't really want it.
I applied for it and I was successful at getting it.
And then within about a year of me being in that management
role, my boss said to me, my boss, who was female and was
white, encouraged me to apply for the next step up, which,
which was associateship. And I looked at the criteria and
for me, I wasn't quite there yet.
I had to work my way up to that criteria, which is what I did.
And within the next year or so when I made the application, I
was successful. And definitely in my industry
there aren't that many black managers and you know that
they're encouraging it. I I think ever since the George
Floyd murder, which is what I have to call it, a lot of
companies have opened up more opportunities for.
Non-english people, let's say. Well, that's how I got into
Frontline. They recognized that their
coaching call wasn't diverse enough.
Yeah. So they were open posts simply
for those from a diverse background.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I'll tell you what, the fact that I was promoted, it didn't
half give a lot of other people in different lower rolls the
confidence and the the expectation that they could also
apply for that pose and get it. This is really opened up the
door. This is where the phrase
representation matters comes into play.
You've got to be able to see yourself.
Yeah, you've got to be able to see yourself, and that's kind of
what you say around some of the work I've been doing since I've
left social work. You're seeing other people do
similar. Yeah.
Stuff you've got to be able to see yourself.
Doing absolutely. And that it all depends on
opportunity. It all depends on your boss.
Yeah. I think my boss recognized from
when I started that I had a good level of knowledge.
Yeah. And also because I was a little
bit older. So a little bit older, a lot
older. I I had the opportunity of
dealing with people who were younger, who could look up to
what I was doing and try and emulate what I was doing and
learn from me. I mean, the majority of people
who I have managed and supervised, I've always said
that they've learnt so much from me and my management style is
different from any of the others that they've had before.
That's what they've said, yeah. OK.
And that's what not my must have told me, but those employees
have actually come to me and said, you know, I'm going to
miss being in your team. Lynn, I've learnt a lot from you
and I'm sorry to, you know, whether they were blowing smoke,
I don't know. I'd like to think they weren't,
but they they genuinely said they learned a lot from me and
no other manager had taken the time to actually show them how
to do things. Certain things, not everything.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, yeah, it's, it's a whole different world.
It's management world. It is, and there's a lot to
learn and not everyone's cut out for it.
There are a lot of challenges, as you well know, and obviously
the book stops with you. It goes and the decision that
you make. So you don't quite switch off,
do you, when you're in that position?
I mean, I'm not sure how many. The only thing that I don't like
about podcasting is that you don't know or you all the
listeners are. So you don't know whether you've
got 50% managers or 50% social workers or maybe you've got a
whole, you know, selection of student social workers.
Because I have a lot of student social workers.
I listen to your podcast. I now know what to look out for.
Right, OK. And I'm thinking, oh, I'm, I
think I'm mainly talking to experienced social workers and
saying, oh, when you're in practice to the, the birth,
yeah. And so it's interesting how it
appeals to different levels of of, you know, social work
professions. Yeah, yeah.
So as we kind of got come to a little close here, yeah.
What was one of your most worrying times?
Oh, that's easy. Oh, really?
That's very easy. It was the dude that the police
were looking for in the helicopter.
It's social work because we laugh.
He was, really. Nice though.
Well, there you go. Very tight.
Another sheep in wolf in sheep's clothing.
Yes. Yeah, that was a very worrying
one because we were relatively local to where he was.
Yes. And in the black community, it's
very common to meet up with other black people at black
events. Yeah.
And there was always a risk that you could see him at an event
and he was very, he was, he was very violent, very, very, very
violent and he had no regard. For authority.
Yeah, authority, yeah, full stop.
Yeah. And he was the one that, you
know, you had to get the restraining order.
Yeah. Because he was just a very
dangerous piece of work. And you, you were also worried
about me. Yeah.
Because obviously if he followed your car, he could have followed
you straight to home. And they don't care that it's a
relative or a mum or whatever. All they know is you go into
that house and there's someone else in that house and they
could very well pick on that person.
But that was a very worrying 1. Worrying 1 because you ended up
going to court on that one as well, and you needed someone to
go with you as a protection and your employers were nowhere to
be seen. That was shocking.
Yeah, absolutely. Shocking.
It must be. I mean, I'm not saying that it
wasn't shocking for me, but for you being on the outside looking
in, thinking for what's happening here.
Where's the care? Yeah, my my thing was and is
always how to protect you. What can I do to protect her?
Is it a question of you park somewhere down the road and walk
or do I have? To do that plenty of times in a
lot of houses I go do. I pick you up somewhere.
I didn't even know what this guy looked.
I can't remember whether he showed me a picture.
No, because he was, was he not? He was in the newspapers or
something, The local paper. I think so, but I don't know.
You wouldn't have got a picture or a name.
You. Know you wouldn't.
Yeah. Or, you know, he's like, he's
just a guy. He's black.
Really. Yeah.
And that I guess must create worry in terms of the unknown
because we can't, we can't share, Yeah.
And also. He may have seen me walking with
you at some point somewhere out in.
Public. Yes.
And then he could have seen me
somewhere else on my own. Yeah.
And, you know, obviously you don't know who that person,
absolutely no idea who he is. And I could have been in danger.
But from your point of view, I think that was one of the most
worrying ones that you had to deal with.
I think some of the trauma that came from that was the lack of
support from the workplace, yeah.
Yeah, it just kind of left it to your own devices, which is not
right. And they don't seem to get this
cultural nuance that you could go to a christening tomorrow.
It's a black. Christening.
The likelihood is not all of us, but a lot of us in certain areas
know each other. We know.
A family member that knows a family member.
And there was always that possibility, but they didn't
actually. Managers didn't take that on.
Board No, it was oh, it's, it's just a potential.
It's a potential. It's a potential but actually,
and some people know you. Before you know, that's right,
that's right. They'll come up to you and say,
are you the social worker that I saw in this vicinity?
Weren't you there to pick up such a such a child?
And that's all they need to say. They don't have to to tell you
anything else. They're like putting it out
there, like, yeah, I know. Who you are?
I know your face. I've seen you before and that's
enough. That's.
Enough. So yeah, that that was a
horrible one. It was, and it seemed to go on
for a very. Long time, the court date,
everything and then the possibility of you having to see
him in court and to give evidence and all the rest of it
and there was not a single soul from management.
Until this day, I've never had a call back.
Nothing. Till this day, they've never
checked whether that restraining order was put in place till this
day. And I was the one I dropped.
You off? Yes.
Dropped you off. I was in the car park I think.
Yeah, and. Then your godfather.
Met you and you walked in together.
But there was no letter from management, no phone call, no
e-mail, no nothing to say. Do you want us to come with you?
You're going to be. Okay, called.
I called and asked for that support and said well, the case
has been transferred to somebody else because at that point I'd
left. The case has been transferred to
someone else. By the way, the hotels put on
some background music so hopefully you can still hear us.
I've been transferred to someone else and I managed to speak to
her and she said well I I am busy that day so I doubt I'll be
able to to come but I'll try. I'll call you back.
I'll speak to my manager. I didn't hear a word.
I'll call but nothing. Disgraceful.
And of course, because it's supposed to be, it is
confidential. I can't exactly pick up the
phone and say, you know, where are you?
You're putting my daughter at risk.
You're sending her on this mission.
And bearing in mind that they were kind of new to the case, if
you like, I don't know how much they looked into it.
They considered it and knew all the risks and.
Maybe they didn't want to put themselves at.
Risk. Yeah, it could be.
But yeah, I it's things like that that make you, I think that
they just don't care about you. They don't care about your
safety and all the the risks that you face.
And they're not willing to put themselves out to do anything
about it. Because, you know, if that was
just me and you, I'd be there with you at the end of the day.
Yeah, unless you say to me, Mom, I think it's safer for you to
stay so and so I'm like, well, no, we're in it.
We're in this together. If you haven't got management
with you, then I'll have to stand with you and that's it.
But you didn't want me really near there to be identified in
any way shape. No, no, no, no, no, no,
Definitely not. Definitely not.
And also it's that dichotomy. But it's not a dichotomy.
It's a duty and it's law. It's confidential.
Yeah, it's confidential. But then in a scenario like
that, the parent's instincts would want to kick.
In Yeah, of course, it's the confidential you still, yeah,
you still declare you keep his life at risk.
Yeah, I don't care what you look like.
I'm going because they're just, I forget what you're like I've
got to do. Yeah, it's very hard because
it's like you're at your personal safety is at risk, but
you can't share any details about this person.
Yeah. So you as I'm the outsider can
keep yourself safe or be a bit more vigilant etcetera.
So you can't, you just can't. And I think that that unknown
created further I'm expecting for you in that scenario in
particular because you you're completely helpless.
I'm at risk, but I can't tell you who's what we're.
Aware. I don't know who it looks like
which which door is he coming in at the court?
I mean, they made sure that you came in at 1.
Door they did that was and actually to to confirm I did not
see this person at court at all that day.
Yeah, because he pleaded guilty, did he?
Because he plead not guilty before, didn't he all along?
That's right. And then calm the day.
He pleaded guilty, Yes. And then he was settled outside.
Well, we say settled like, yeah, you know, there was.
But he was dealt with outside of court.
Restraining order in place. Happy days.
Everyone went home. Yeah, outside, out of separate
doors. Yeah.
So that risk was significantly reduced, but I didn't know they
were going to do that on the day.
Of the court hearing. So leading up to it was.
Very, very, very stressful. Yeah.
Yeah, it was very stressful. Yeah.
What is the highlight of my
social career to you? Oh, I would think it's that
young boy. Oh yes.
That young boy got really attached to you and he really
wanted you as a social worker. He trusted you, he could relate
to you and he had that affinity with you which he didn't have
with anyone else before you. And he didn't want you to to go.
He didn't, he didn't. And even though you kind of
said, you know, the next social worker that you're going to be
having is ex and they're really nice and what have you, what was
his? What was his You?
Phoned me now, can I speak to Lisa, please?
And I'm like, what's going on? Like, why are you calling me in
the middle of a school day? He actually went to the office
to to call me the school office. And he's like, you know, that
new social worker he told me about?
I'm like, yeah, it's not going to work with her, you know?
I know. How do you know that?
You ain't met her properly yet? He's like, I know, but you
brought her to the house over there.
She's all right. But Nah, man, Nah.
It's not going to work. Yeah, I think you you had a
really good professional relationship with him and, you
know, I think you made a difference to him and his life.
And that was that was one of the highlights.
Yeah, I'd agree with you because one time I took him at
Fernando's and we had something to eat after after school and he
said to me, I'm never going to forget you, you know, because I
said this new social worker thing is going, it's going to
happen. So you know, you have to just
get used to it or to him up. We don't cut Nando's.
And he said I'm never going to forget you.
You know, it's like you make you make me feel like I can do
anything. And I was like, that's because
you can. He's like, I know.
But most of the time I don't feel like that.
And that's what you make me feel like.
And I said, oh, is that why you tried to couldn't be asked the
other day? And is that we're not talking
about that now. I am.
I'm still talking about that. I have to come and get you to
prison. That's what I'm still talking
about. And you know, we used to have
this kind of, yeah, the slight banter element to those serious
topics. But yeah, that I would say I
would agree, yeah. Some would agree some good
highlights. Yeah, definitely, definitely
some good highlights and ones where, I mean, it's not pleasant
to even think about it, but where mum has mum's on drugs and
mum's pregnant and obviously baby has also become dependent
and when the babies are born they have to be removed.
Yeah, those ones are not great, but they are what's necessary
for the well-being of the child. So, you know, there's some some
sad cases. Yeah.
And. But the right?
Decision, the right decision was made.
And also the the sibling abuse ones as well.
Those were horrible ones weren't made.
Yeah, because the siblings, I think they had learning
difficulties or some kind of mental health difficulty, and
they didn't actually realize what was being done.
No, there's a lot of, there's a lot of sibling abuse ones where
it's difficult because you've got sibling to sibling and
sibling to parent and parent to sibling.
So you have this complexity and you know, it's which one do you
deal with? Do you manage first?
But usually you have to do everything at the same, the same
time. But I would say another one of
my another one of my highlights, it just came to me when I was
employed as a full time coach in a local authority.
Oh yes, yeah. Where was that again?
Was that? In I won't say where it was, but
and that one was. Yeah.
That was a real highlight in my career because I've really been
pushing and trying to speak to about the powers that be about
the power of coaching in social work and coaching at that time
was only accessible to managers who online courses.
And you know, now you can see there's a whole actually got to
be a full time coach for a children in care team, the
senior management team, you know, the whole shebang came up
with the whole program and the whole system.
And that that was a beautiful moment for me because I've
really pushed for that and I got decent money as well for that
one. So I was really happy about
that. And that opened up the door,
believe it or not. So management because they
wouldn't consider me as agency as a manager if I've never been
a manager. So when, you know, more help was
needed in the team for managing, I just kind of very slowly moved
into that role. Yeah.
So that was, I'd say, another highlight where I was coaching
and then managing, and then that opened up the door to more
management. OK, Yeah.
Yeah. That's a good role.
That's definitely a good role. It was, yeah, Good role.
Any final words? Any final words?
I'm proud of you for making the jump from being employed to
self-employed. I know it's challenging.
I'm feeling every angst and every worry and every concern.
And every joy and every reward. Joy and every reward.
Yeah, I'm there to celebrate all the good, wonderful moments,
even though half the time I am so busy with my own work and my
own challenges. I know.
That I I'm not able to give as much as I would like to to
support you in in your self-employment journey.
Because it's a lonely journey. People don't realize that you
are solely one person, just you, responsible for every element.
Yeah. You know, yeah, it's, it's.
I mean we are able to talk about a lot of things business wise in
yourself employment journey, which is it's, it's good to be
able to talk about things and most kind of those the big
decisions we do talk about and kind of come up with some kind
of solution. But obviously you are your
business and you're the face of the business and everyone knows
you as the face of the business. I'm just there in a supportive
role as much as I possibly can be given, you know, I have a
full time demanding career as well.
But yeah, I'm proud of you for taking that leap and for taking
the strides and the steps that you've taken.
It's not easy, but you again when you were.
Employed, you were trying to make a difference and now you're
self-employed, you're still trying to make a difference.
So you're kind of heart and mind and your motivation is
definitely in the right places. We just need.
I'm praying God's lock upon you so that you get the vision.
I've got my mind. Well, you've got the vision.
I'm not worried about vision. OK, you've, you've got the
vision. The vision is, is all there.
It's just about being given that opportunity so that you can
consistently make an income from self-employment where you are.
But you know more, but it's not, it's not easy being
self-employed. It's not what it looks like.
And you have to put in the graph.
Yeah. You have to be dedicated.
Yeah. And you have to be on the grind.
Day in, day out. Yeah.
It's not for no days off. No days off.
You're thinking you're going to be self-employed and your life
is going to be rosy and somehow things are just going to happen.
It isn't. You have to work for it.
Every single penny, every single request, and sometimes requests
you have to make them over and over and over again.
Even so many people promise you things.
And we can, we can be at a show for a whole weekend and we would
get let's say 99 people promising us to do X.
And out of those 99, sometimes we might get one person, if
that, and that will be two or three years.
Later. Yeah, yeah.
And you've got to have the patience and the belief not only
in yourself but in your own product and what you've got to
offer, yeah, that you can continue to do it.
And that if one person says no, another person will say yes.
Yeah. And largely we've had that.
Yes, yes. You know when we're least
expected and when it looks as if things are.
There's no the point of no return.
Something happens. Something happens.
I mean, we've had some. Great success with the event
now. I mean the.
National event is going from strength to strength, the
National Black and Diverse Safeguarding Conference.
If you don't know it's happening Saturday the 20th of September,
go to socialworkcoachinghub.com/events
get your tickets for that. We haven't got that many left,
but it's just been going from strength to strength.
I mean, we've got government officials opening this year.
I mean, it's in its second year. Yeah, absolutely.
It can only get better. It can.
Only get better. It can only get better.
But it's, it's graft. It's every day, every day, every
day. Something is moving, shaking,
changing, being agreed, not being agreed, negotiating.
You know, it's a dance, it's a constant dance and you've got to
be in it in order to, to do that dance.
Really a bit of a tango to be honest.
Many people would have given up by now because I I can't
remember what the statistics is. Whether it's 50% of small
businesses fail within the first five years, I can't remember,
but. I know it's a high.
Percentage of businesses that fail within that period because
either they haven't got the right product or they don't know
how to market it.