Hello and welcome to opening the Gates to more listings for
estate agents with me, Simon Gates.
And I'm delighted to be joined say by Mr. Russell Jervis.
Russell, thank you very much for joining me.
Thank you for having me Simon. Lovely to finally get this date
in the diary it. Is an honour to have you on
because it has taken 300 plus episodes.
I know it's AI know it's a rare treat to do this, although
you've been on a bit of a podcast campaign recently
because I think I saw you run Estate Agency X, which I
listened to, which I found very interesting.
And then you were with the lovely Matt Giggs yesterday.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yesterday, yeah.
So yeah, I've kindly, people have invited me to come on, come
on the podcasts and I've had some lovely feedback.
So, yeah, always promised to come on your assignment.
We just couldn't get that date fixed in the diary.
But we have, we have got that today, which is which is
fantastic. Yeah, but I've enjoyed it.
Yeah. So Matt's keep you up.
He's left a bit to be desired. I was, I was hoping with his
Peterborough United fame and skills of yesteryear, but he he
as many people have wrong footwear.
It's excellent protesting long footwear.
I think my excuse at Property Mark One was I'd had a few beers
and I thought that might have helped me out, but it definitely
was the opposite. Well I think your ball's on its
way to you so you can you can practice in the garden.
Your in your 1977 Liverpool kit. Joe, it's funny you say that in
1997 because and we will get into a state agency.
For anyone listening at home, Liverpool did this like retro
campaign this season and it was like it was going back 20 years
ago. It's like Steve Mcmanamon and
Robbie Fowler did some things. I don't know if you'd remember
this away shirt from 96. That's like the first season of
me properly, like remembering football, like EUR 96 is my like
early moment and there's this green and white away.
Checks. Yeah, the checks.
So I actually bought a retro version of that.
Yeah, good. So.
Yeah, right. So in terms of your career, if
we can actually take it all the way back to before I think I was
even born, Yeah, 1991. Gigs asked me yesterday how long
have I been in the estate agency?
And it was quite worrying to, to, to think I started when I
was 18. So I think we worked out that's
38 years ago. So yeah.
Or might be even 39 years ago, yeah.
So late late 80s. Late 80s, yes.
And that was when the market had gone from boom to bust.
It's still pretty, pretty busy. When I when I started to know
the sales on the on the board and I think the target was to to
write 100 addresses on and that would be the sales.
I think in those days we still wrote them up twice or three
times if they fell through and sailed again.
So, but, but generally the, the ambition was to fill that white
board up at the back of the office with with sales and and
the 100 was a was a magic number.
So, yeah, I went through lots of different marketplace at that
time, double tax relief, you know, the, the, the, the Mars
push. So, yeah, so lots of different,
different markets over a a long period of time.
And throughout almost to make you sound even older, almost 40
years now in the industry, what still rings true today as it did
on your first few days, weeks and months in a state agency in
terms of what makes successful estate agents.
Well, I, I was taught from a very early age at agency, so I
started, I didn't get the job until I had done a trial.
So I had to, I finished my job at Royal London where I was
working at the print services in Clarendon Way, Colchester and I
worked at Strut Daughters from 4:00.
I said rush home from there, get my suit on, get to 64 N Hill, 65
N Hill, sorry. And I was given a pile of cards
and told to phone, phone all these applicants about, about
these properties. And I did that from 4:00 till
7:00 all day, sorry, Thursday, Friday, then worked all day
Saturday, had a 3-4 week trial and, and got, got, got, got a
full time job after that. And and what I, what I learnt
very early doors is the agent that made more outgoing phone
calls than anybody else at that point was the agent that would
open the gates to more listings or would introduce more people
to more properties. And think things that always
stuck with me was I worked with a guy called Lee Riley who was
incredibly good at multi viewing people.
So, you know, I, I, I'd make a viewing where he would make
viewings and you know, for me, that's why I picked up very,
very quickly. Is that what somebody wanted to
see was not necessarily what they were going to buy.
And about really finding out more about customers needs and,
and getting them to view view more properties, but also work
with your valuers to to to to find a home that they they
wanted. And this was a this was a time
obviously with outright move without anything.
And, you know, the newspaper was, was the big, big thing.
Thursdays and Fridays in our location when the newspaper came
out, that was the day you wanted to be waiting to receive the
calls. I, I, I, I think for a while we
weren't even paid on incoming calls from the newspaper.
Imagine that now in today's world of, of agency that we
won't pay you on a right move lead, you know, because that's
been generated by the business. I wonder how that would go down.
So it's like I started in. So it's interesting hearing your
story there because I, when I was doing my A levels 16 to 18,
which I didn't want to do, I wanted to be in the state, I
wanted to get straight into it, but my I.
Didn't quite make that cut on the A level front.
I didn't want to do that, but my parents said well if you go and
do a state agency and it's not what you thought it was and you
hate it, go do your levels. You might want to go to uni.
I said OK, I'll do that as a back up plan.
And I was doing my levels basically in the morning and
then in the afternoons I would go and work in the estate agency
and then I would do Saturdays and plenty of Sundays as well.
So I was learning the trade from yeah 1617.
So when I started at 18 and still looked about 12, people
would compliment me on going, you know a lot for an 18 year
old. And it's like I've already been
doing it a couple of years. Yeah, I mean, prior to I started
my full time at, at Strat Daughters, I'd my, my, my, my
dad had got me a Saturday job, effectively Saturday job at a
company called Watsons GA Watsons just round the corner
from where I'm filming today in Trinity St.
Colchester. And you know, I, I, I, that was
my first experience. I can remember, we sold our own
house with, with, with Watsons and in Victoria Rd.
Colchester. And we got some colour pictures
came into the office. They were, you know, in, in, in
the reels and reels of photos that you peeled off.
And I was like, look at that. It's an amazing set of property
details, which I suppose ingrained in me about
presentation, making sure that everything that you did looked
good and the properties were represented in their best
possible way. But yeah, it's Colchester Estate
agency through the late 80s, early 90s was a lot of fun and,
and a lot of businesses have now been built.
I don't know, cultures are so unique in that way.
I feel where so many people have expanded to open their own
businesses out of that this, this city now as it is and
particularly mortgage services, there's a, you know, three of
the largest providers of new homes, mortgages are in cultures
across the UK. Crazy.
So is it maybe you said about it now being a city, maybe it's
something to do with it being the oldest or what was the
oldest town in the country? The oldest recorded town, yes.
You like my knowledge there? Very good, very good.
There you go. I see you were revising my
LinkedIn profile earlier. I was indeed, yeah, of course,
got to got to do a bit of research on you.
And so going going back to the earlier time in your career, I,
I found it really fascinating hearing that story when you were
speaking to it was both Mark Burgis and Rob Brady, wasn't it
on this? They're both that just how like
I didn't realise just how kind of just like relentless it was
and the how much like growth had been, like you said, from where
you started and then all the way up to running.
Spice McCall with three officers in 1995.
And I can never, I never get the exact number right.
I think it's sort of there's a few numbers band around.
It's around about 7070 plus offices of Cornerstone that were
taken over on the 15th of September 1995.
You know, and, and and and and that was it.
I was thrown into financial services director was my first
role. So to take over the mortgage
brokers, which was obviously crucial because that was the
vehicle for repaying the debt is to to to write mortgages.
Same for Aaron Estates, Town Ends who are now Badger
Holdings, Darlow's in Wales, Birch and Edwards up in the in
the Midlands. You know, they all took a slice
of that, that pie and, and and joined the the winter to life,
which was Provident life and sort of infrastructure.
So yeah, it was a very, very interesting, challenging time
because you only had the licence on the Cornerstone brand for a
short period. OK, interesting and on.
So over all the years you've been in the industry, I'm going
to put you on the spot now, 2 questions in one.
What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given and
what's the worst? Goodness me, What's the best
piece of advice? Alec Smith, the original joint
founder of the business with Paul.
He he, he would always be encouraging you not to sell.
Yeah, he would, he would always be encouraging you not not to
sell. So really, the early days of,
you know, empathetic listing. So, yeah, he, he, he would
always be really driven on, on that fact in, you know, just
just listen, just just just listen, just be yourself, show
interest, really build strong relationships with people.
He, he was very good at names. He was very good at, you know,
knowing everything about the whole person, the family and the
children and, and, and that's something that stuck with me.
I, I, I, I, you know, I made it made sure that I really got to
know somebody. I didn't look through them.
I really looked in into them and to understand them as a an
individual and you know, their, their, their lifestyle, their
things that they follow, believed in your Liverpool
Football Club, you know, whatever it may be, pick
something up that you can talk to someone on a level.
So, yeah, just just be be real and you'll build trust.
That was something that was always struck me, that if you
are genuine, yeah, and, and people see that and you show
genuine interest, then you know you will build that, that trust.
What's the worst piece of advice I was?
Was there to start a podcast with Russell Quert.
No, that, that was a joint decision.
That, that, that was an absolute joint decision.
I can't, I can't think of off the top of my head.
So I'm just a bit of a cop out. Can we come back to it?
It might, it might, it might, it might come to me at at some
point, but I can't. I can't genuinely think of
something that I would think, yeah, I was advised.
Probably probably the worst advice I ever got was from my
wife saying we need to sell these bartlettes.
OK, no, OK, interesting. Yeah, because at the time we,
you know, early in our relationship and we know we were
selling shares of, we bought shares on a developer of Telford
Homes that we were dealing with who said, look, you should get
involved in this. And, and we did and, and not a
lot but we sold them straight away to pay for some carpets in
our new home. We had a little buy to let in
Kimberly Rd. in Colchester that we sold to put down a deposit
for our main house. And good as me, I thought the
other day, if I kept all of those over the years what would
they be worth now? So yeah, bad advice.
God can't can't can't genuinely think of something off top my
head. I mean, on so on the when you
said about buy to let's I, I actually put something on my
Instagram story earlier today, because we're sort of 10 years
on now from the country voting to leave the year.
And I, I exchanged contracts as a terror story a lot.
I exchanged contracts the day the result came out that we we
voted to leave and the solicitor said to me, are you are you
pulling out? That's what they said.
I was like, what do you mean? I said, we've had loads of
people pulling out of deals that you're an estate agent.
You must know like most of the crashes and that I went who
knows, but all I know is that I'm not looking to move into
this and sell it in a year's time.
This is a long term investment and I've been kicking myself.
I didn't buy this exact house 2 years prior because it's gone up
50,000. And if I look back at the people
who bought in O seven who probably if you'd said to them
in 2007 knowing what 2008 had ahead of them, do you want to
just hand the keys back and call it quits?
They probably would, but those people who invested in those
seven would be, you know, sat very happy today.
So that sort of came to mind then what you said about, I
guess, being a problem solver rather than being a salesperson.
Matt Matt Giggs. When I first met him eight years
ago, one of the first things he said to me was, and he said it
recently, make a sale, make a Commission, make a friend, earn
a fortune or whatever. The, the yeah yeah, that came
together. Well, having walked through St.
Nia's yesterday with him, he's made a lot of friends.
So I do you know what I I judge so many estate agents I go to
see off of the first time. I think I've spent time with
Matt in St. Neots and anytime I go to St.
Neots now Russell because he can't walk down the street
without people being like, hello, Matt, how are you doing?
How are you doing? How are you doing?
If I go see an estate agent and people are not saying hello, how
are you doing? I'm like you are not known
enough in your marketplace. You need to.
Well, that's it, Yeah. There's only two reasons people
don't use you, right? Yeah.
They either they, they know about you and they don't want to
use you, or they don't know about you.
So you've you've got to get yourself out there to be, to be
known. Yeah, and I was actually this is
I'm going off on on bit of a tangent here.
I was sat in a pub garden on Friday evening with my other
half Louise. And this is so bizarre.
I don't know if I share this in the podcast the other day some a
couple were walking past and she sneezed.
This sounds really random. And the guy said bless you.
And I lifted up my sunglasses and went thank you Mike.
And he looked at me and went Simon Gates, the world's best
estate agent came over high 5 hugged me.
His wife Cara was like, Oh my God, Simon, how are you?
Had a chat. I basically bought they bought
and sold through me in 2019. And I said to Louise, see
Arsenal, right, estate agent, I know what I'm talking about.
Very good. That's great, isn't it?
Yeah, I, I still around culture now see people that I did
mortgages for because you know, I, I was the state agent from
878687 till 9091 then I went into mortgages from 91 to 95
where I stayed till about 9798 then moved back into to to a
state agency. So I still see you're the person
that that I did did mortgages for.
So yeah, it's you need to leave a lasting impression, don't you?
You need to and hopefully that's a good lasting.
Yeah, so on, so on the mortgage side of things, and you have had
Peter Brodnicki on your podcast and I've seen Peter speak a
couple of times at Mortgage Advice Bureau conferences.
And one of the real key things that stood out to me, I could
not believe the percentage of what mortgage holders, would
that be the right term? The percentage of mortgage
holders who after a 2 year or five year go back to the
mortgage broker who did them their mortgage.
Yet an estate agency. The stats from Spectre are 85%
roughly of buyers don't sell through the estate agent they
bought through. So what?
What can estate agents learn from the mortgage side of things
and how they can have a better lifetime value out of a
customer? But I, I, we, we, we had this
one. We opened in Cambridge and John
Hunt, I think wrote AI remember reading an article from John
Hunt in Foxton saying that he wanted to be the estate agent
that everybody wanted to sell through, but nobody wanted to
buy through, but they had to buy through you because you had the
stock. And we, we, we took it from and
I, I, I, I, I picked up on the back of this.
So I'm not claiming it's my idea.
So we operated the Pendle approach to negotiating offers.
So spice for call, that was very much where.
What did you call it? The what approach?
Pendle it's a sales skill that they use in the car, in the car
industry. OK, I've never.
Heard of that race so I'm intrigued.
So if you if you go to buy a buy a car, you'll often in the car
industry they have a controller that deals with the offers.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, OK.
And, and very much that that would be around, right.
You know, how much is the car? Well, OK, well, what, what's
your budget for monthly spend? Well, how much is the car?
Don't worry about that. Just worry about the monthly
budget. And then they'll go and talk to
the person at the back of the finance and the controller to to
make that car work for you. You probably never realise what
you're actually paying for the card.
What you end up is knowing what you're paying for monthly.
Yeah, and. And Spice McCall, we, we very
much focused on bid offer, which was never, ever, ever concealing
what the vendor would take. And I, I know still many, many
estate agents will absolutely encourage offers and often give
away the, the, the fact that, that it sold for 270 before it's
fallen through. So if you could be 270, I could
get this tied up where if that's how I've been treated as a, as a
buyer, I might think call that estate agents.
Fantastic. You know, they helped me get a
deal. But when I'm going to sell, I
don't think I want them to be representing me because they're
not going to do the best for me. Whereas if, if the bid offer
process was run properly and it was difficult to get that run
properly everywhere, but if you ran it properly, you, you would
become known as Foxton's Esk Weisberg called Esk in
Cambridge, particularly where it was, it was, it was absolutely
perfected. You'd be the agent that people
wanted to sell through because you've got top prices.
But you know, maybe I don't want to buy 3, but I've got 2 because
you've got all the beautiful stock.
And I think it's estate agents making sure, you know, we are
the guardian of, of, of, of, of the pricing of those properties.
And it's our job to get that vendor the best possible price
in the market at that time. And you know, I still, as you
know and, and, and Josh knows, you know very much, I still work
with agents now and again and. One of the things I will look at
is into when I was doing office visits on my previous life, we
had offer forms. I'm sure it's all electronic
now. I don't know.
I don't know if a robot comes in and does that and and and, but
we had offer forms and you'd, you'd, I'd, I'd look for how
many houses were tied up on 1st offer.
Interesting. And I, I would think if you're
tying houses up on first offer, you are not doing a great job
for that vendor because in all of us, OK, we're estate agents,
but we're consumers as well, aren't we?
So if, if I'm going to buy a house or I'm going to buy
anything, I'm, I'm probably going to put my first bid in.
And by the nature of my first bid, that tells me there is a
second offer coming. And I also think how far can you
go, You know, first, second, third, 4th, 5th, you know, it's,
it's, it's the art of negotiation.
We're being paid for our marketing skills and our
negotiation skills. So as an, as an estate agent, so
same, same, slightly different in, in, in, in recruitment.
But you know, we massively encourage all of our clients to
let us do the negotiations on, on salaries because we, we can
get really honest feedback. But I don't think candidates
necessarily give companies because they don't want to
insult them. Whereas, you know, we can help
bridge the gap. And I really want Simon Gates to
come and join us. OK, we're going to offer Simon
45 K OK, we need a little bit of help here.
Simon's not going to move for 45K.
That's per That's per month, not per year, right?
Yeah. Of course.
So I've I've that hadn't ever even crossed my mind.
So on the recruitment side, is that normal within recruitment
or is that something in particular?
No, we, we, we, we, we, it doesn't happen every time and,
and lots of people want to make the offers.
And if it's a complicated Commission structure, then we,
we probably say you need to, you need to go through those finer
details with the client. But we, we will, there'll be a
far greater success for us as the recruiter to be handling the
negotiations on both parties to really get honest good feedback.
And, and often it's the case of, you know, £1000 a month, £1000 a
year is £83 a month. You know, is this, is this
somebody you want to lose for £83 a month?
And so we'll change a little bit with minimum wage, as I've been
saying on numerous conversations in the last 10 days, you know,
most hours in a state agency you're looking at a minimum 25
to £28,000 a basic. So that that has that has sort
of removed a lot of the the trainees and people going for
more of 1-2 year experience. OK, interesting.
And on on the recruitment side, whilst it's fresh in my mind, I
can't remember what the stat was, but I remember you saying a
stat on the podcast with Mark and Rob about the placements you
make that is it majority are through by outbound prospecting
head. Hunting head hunting 65% of the
placements that rain and person have made in last year.
Stats for this year are pretty much tracking as well are are
made via via head hunting because, you know, lots of
estate agents of lettings agents, financial services
companies have got indeed accounts.
They've got, you know, word of mouth, they've got referral
schemes, they've got internal team so that they will find
active candidates. And you know, I've just taken
along with Josh, a lot of what we did in a state agency.
So you, you put a house on right move.
You find all the active candidates.
Yeah. And you've spent a lot of time
with Tom Panos to to hear him talk about active buyers,
passive buyers. And you've got out of area
active, out of area passive. And, and the estate agent's job
is to awaken the passive buyers. Yeah, to, to really get them
competing against the active buyers.
Was it? He says competition wins the
Melbourne Cup. Yeah, yeah, 100%.
I mean, so there's a, a James Clear quote that I love and I
often use and long and short of it is, you know, the best
properties are rarely on the market.
The best employees are rarely job hunting, the best options
usually off the market. You think I'd have it.
What it actually means is you have to go and find it and sell
yourself. So to use well, I was employed
at Michael Graham from 16 years of age of 2007 till January
2020. Was I 100% happy in that job?
No. Was I looking for another job?
Absolutely not. But Sam Hunter rang me one day
and went good day mate, Do you want the job?
Yes. Why not?
I wasn't, I wasn't on the market.
But he asked the question and it's the same with the I'm not
saying I'm the best employee, far from it.
But the same on the cars as well.
I'm about to pick up a new car. They reached out to me and said,
Simon, you've been a lawyer. I mean it's classic playbook,
but you've been a loyal customer of us since 2009 and you can
trade in and get this one. And you said about the model
earlier like I if you said to me now Simon, how much is that car
brand new is then if you pay cash, I have no idea.
It could be 10 grand, it could be 100 grand.
It's 325 a month or whatever. I know.
I know what the monthly payment is.
Yeah. And so, yes, it's interesting.
In terms of the reason, I think I wanted to ask that and I knew
it was a high number. I couldn't remember, is that
because it's 65%? Because how many agents sort of
go? Oh, well, I won't, I won't reach
out to that person. I won't make that call.
I won't send that message because they won't want to hear
if you. And it's a bit it's a bit
awkward sometimes, you know, there may be different
relationships and the the IT doesn't work.
But you know, we we are very much will will deal with active
candidates. We've got lots of active
candidates who are curious of what might be out there.
They're necessarily not on indeed or they're not open to
work on LinkedIn, but they are curious, you know, and, and and
probably the most popular thing I get messaged after a Monday.
Is Russell anything out there for me?
OK, what, what would you be? What, what would you be looking
for? And a lot of clients are always
talking to us about if, if there's if, if, if there's a if
Mosala's on the market. Will Mosala's on the market with
we'd like to talk to him. So, you know, it's, it's about
connections and for us, making personal connections and being
connected is what it's all about.
And who knows, there's always a an opportunity out there that
somebody might want to explore. I think I probably have said
this publicly before or in a podcast with Josh and if I
haven't I'll seek forgiveness rather than get permission from
him. But I didn't realise I wasn't
even going to mention this in this conversation until you just
reminded me and dropped my memory that during towards the
end of my time at home search, I kept getting approached by
agents saying, why don't like, can we book you for a day?
And I was like, well, I'm employed, like I haven't got
time. And I kept getting asked,
getting asked, getting asked. And I was like, this thing in my
mind is maybe I should go do my own thing.
But I was like, why would I leave the comfort of a salary
pension holiday? And then I can't remember
exactly when, but maybe late 22. I've never spoken to Josh
Rayner, but of course I know who he is and he slides into my DMS
on LinkedIn and can't remember what it would have said, but
it's. Would you be open to having a
conversation about XYZ? And I was like, interesting.
Yeah, all right. Having a conversation which I
was 99.99% happy at home search. But again, they're that little
bit. Well, I love the conversation.
Immediately knew it wasn't for me.
But there's so many different kind of jigsaw pieces in this.
But Josh sending that message is one of those moments that meant
I went out of the comfort zone to the stretch zone, and then I
would go do my own thing. Yeah, and, and, and you know,
Josh is, has been a master and continues to be on, on remaining
connected within the industry and just just wanting to help
people. And, and genuinely, that's what
where we come, come at this whole thing.
How, how can we help you? And we feel we've got service to
say to people. There's a, there's a, we've just
been presented with a great opportunity.
I don't know if it's right for you at this moment in time or,
or not, but we feel we should just tell you about it.
And but hey, if it's not right, then we're connected now that's
what would be right for you one day.
And, and there's lots of people that we've made placements with
and continue to that we first connected with 2345 years ago
who just suddenly the something changes in their circumstances
or changes in their company or, or whatever it may be.
You know, it's, it's about, it's about being available.
I think an estate agency and sort of surrounding industries
to it is, is all I know, but it does feel like Pete, like when I
was an agent, some would make an excuse like I won't, I won't
ring them because like they've only, they've only been there
two years or I won't bring them there on the market 6 months ago
and they said they're definitely not moving.
There was a a grievance in the family or something.
And you, I, I just kind of think from a practical take away for
any agents listening to this, it's like if you've got a buyer
and you know exactly what they're looking for and there's
nothing on right before them. And you go through what
properties we've drew in the last 12 months, whether that's
on the market with you or someone else and saying to them,
look, I know you came in from market, maybe you're not moving,
but I've got Simon and Louise who've identified your home.
If I can get you the price you wanted, would you consider a
move? And that's like such an easy
thing to do. But I think too many these days
go well, they came from market for a reason.
If you if you go back to your first question on mortgage
services, just playing that through my mind.
I, I, I know so I'm such the hottest day of the year, Simon
today, isn't it so Jack Adams of We are Mortgages has kindly let
me use his where my daughter works uses air conditioned
little studio here. So for, for the price of a nice
latte and, and, you know, in talking to Jack and, and knowing
Jack, they, they, they write to everybody on the anniversary of
every single mortgage. And much easier now with AI and,
and, and emails, I think before end of term, end of product
term. So three months before most
mortgage brokers I know will be writing to you to say your five
year fixed rate, 2 year fixed rate end of term is coming up.
So let's get talking about that now.
And all, all, all, all estate agents or a lot of estate
agents, you know, are and we, we have the term new business
junkies. So we're all about new, new,
new, new, new, new go outdoor knocking.
Go drop a load of leaflets, buy the latest propensity and piece
of kit and and you know what are the, you'll know the stats
because that's what you do Simon.
But you know, if you've got a two year fixed mortgage, you'll
get fixed rate mortgage. You're going to need to re
mortgage in two years and in it's a five year, it's a
whatever it may be. So probably in a 10 year period
you are going to be able to work with that customer maybe maybe 4
times. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's the average time that people move now in the UK?
Depends which way you look at the stats, but just an easy way
to say it is once a decade. OK, yes, I was going to say once
every 10 years I've I've seen we've did we did it a lot, a lot
of agents try and do it. So anniversary card, you know,
you've now been in your house for one year.
Would you like an up to date valuation according to, you
know, my automated model, your house is now worth this.
Have you done anything to your house?
I think they are the sort of things that when the market
tightens, they're they're the things that get cut straight
away because they're not seeing a payback for it because you're
not going to see a payback for it because it takes years.
And you know, the whole, the whole piece around self-employed
again and coming back to recruitment nutrition in a state
agency is still running at somewhere between 42 and 50%.
Now that may be at certain levels, but if half of your
workforce are leaving every year, you're not making that
continual connection. I, I, I know just from our own
experience of trying to fill mortgage advisor roles, you
know, mortgage advisors are far more consistent.
They stay because they're building up that client bank.
And if you've had two or three years of writing good mortgages,
you've got another 10 years of writing good mortgages.
So you know, it's, it's either that people will go to
self-employed ARM and still look after their client bank or
they'll be looking well looked after by their, by their company
because they, they're doing well.
You know, if that attrition number, which I know a lot of
companies are really drilling into, which is great to see is
if you can reduce that attrition number, then of course you're
going to get repeat business. Because Mike, who tells you
you're the best estate agent in, in, in your location, as you
mentioned, from the pub, will still know where you are and
will go back to the office. And if he went back looking for
you in that branch and you're not there, he's thinking, well,
my connection was with the person, not the company.
So my I couldn't on that point of of the gentleman Mike, I
couldn't help but think like walking home, the sad person
that I am mum is like shut up. Simon was as I imagine if I was
to go be an estate agent tomorrow and join one of the
self-employed models. And yes, you can go in door
knock and let her drop, which is which is of course a strategy to
do. But business development starts
at home and you got so many contacts in your phone who
already know, like and trust you.
And I just walked home going. I'd literally, if I was to
certainly you could do it as a WhatsApp broadcasters, but I
could pick up the phone or WhatsApp.
Mike. Hey, Mike, obviously it's great
to see you in in the pub a few months ago, just to let you
know, actually start my own estate agency.
I know, like, you were huge fans at the time.
Like, would you do us a favour? Anyone you know thinking of
moving home? If you send them my way, I'd
really appreciate it. Yeah.
Yeah, people. People love to help people.
So ask you for recommendations, ask you for referrals.
You know, I, I, I, I encourage, I talk to our franchisees that
it's almost the biggest endorphin you can get is to help
somebody else. So, you know, if you, if you ask
for referrals and people often will give them with, with
pleasure and, and, and gusto. Since you say, if you were to
open an estate agent and join a self-employed model, why, why
would you think that's the first option for you, Simon?
Is it 'cause you I, I thought you'd want a big Gates and Co,
you know, lovely big office, 6 negs out there doing valuers
what? Hang on.
A minute who's who's podcast is this?
It's a very interesting point. I, I think I went to well, I
think this is 2 two ways of answering this.
Went to that point initially because I'd say most of the
conversations I have is I don't think a week goes by where I
don't have someone say to me, I'm on the High Street, I'm
looking at going self-employed. Which brokerage would you
recommend? And I normally say, well, 95% of
it is down to you rather than the brokerage you're associated
with. Like you need to be in it to win
it. And if I was to quit everything
I'm doing and I was to go sell houses again, I kind of feel
like going to one of the brokerages is a bit of a, a
shortcut, a bit of a CHEAT SHEET, something there.
Quickly. Yeah, yeah, I can see that and
I'm sad. But I think that whilst we're on
that subject, what I find interesting and something I did
want to touch on with you is that I, I get it.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not bad mouthing here.
But someone goes self-employed and they say, and I'll put a
post up on social media today, which will be something like if
you're sat in an office with no air conditioning and you've had
to ask your boss to take your tie off, is it time to go
self-employed? But it's like they go
self-employed and they say I will deal with you from start to
finish. You won't be palmed off to a
sales progressor, a junior da, da, da, da, da, whatever.
You'll deal with me in start to finish.
And they do such a good job that they sell lots of houses, they
drum loads of business. They then have to start
employing people. Then they need somewhere to have
these people so they don't go and get an office.
It's like so the exact thing that you you.
Didn't want to be. You didn't want to be you've
turned into so as much as I'm as guilty as an expert on this
podcast of a few 100 episodes of having digs here and there at
the bigger organisations. You were at the head of one of
the biggest organisations in the country.
So can we talk about the importance of systems and
processes and and what the big companies do get right?
Yeah, I mean, when, when, when you're running a lot of people,
This has come up in every podcast.
You know, I don't work for a corporate and I I, I think it's
all about the individual. We we looked for what we called
the compliant best, the people who want to be in a structure,
want to follow a process, you know, would push the boundaries
to a certain point because we wanted that independent spirit.
And you know, I'm, it is, it is all about that personal choice.
I I really do believe in, you know, what type of person are
you? And did I, did I see you were
reading surrounded by idiots the other day?
It wasn't. Wasn't me, but I it's.
A, it's a, it's a fascinating book and it's a, it's a
brilliant read. And it, you know, anybody who's
managing teams or managing people should read that book
because it will just help you so much to understand who people
are and how you get the best out of them.
And why all, all the Reds need to go and work for themselves,
you know, and, and because they, they will struggle to work in a
structure. But for some people, they can
grow out in a, in a structure, be, be the best sales
progressor, the best branch manager, the best area manager,
whatever it may be in that role and, and do really, really well.
And you know, we had a the Spice heart way.
I'm still it's still going in some way, shape or form, which
was just the best practices of the original Spice McCall.
And then what we learnt from the top offices in that business by
observationally watching, learning and thinking, right?
We need to now take that and replicate it over the rest of
the business. Talking to Chris Rossendale at
the Connells Group, you know, very similar, doing the same,
simplifying their business, making it easier for them to, to
people to work within and work with.
And when you drill into some of the branch numbers that some
businesses are doing, whether they be an independent, a
corporate or someone self-employed, there's some
people doing some exceptional numbers because that model is
right for them. So like I've had so many people
on the on the podcast over the past few years who've been in
the environment you're talking about who then decided they want
to go do their own thing. And they've absolutely
flourished because of that. And I kind of like something
Matt Giggs is a great example, having come from Countrywide.
And then Shane Harris, who you obviously know very well on the
episode, I think of Spencer Gilbert and Perry Rose.
And I can imagine those two are ones who like to push boundaries
when they're employed. They, they, they, they, they
were all of them, you know, were, were, were incredible and
probably what the business did at the time or is, is sometimes
you, you move too much to that one glove flits all.
And they, they tried to flex it with the elite program.
I'm I'm aware how that that goes now, but trying to give people a
bit more freedom and, and the price of independence's
performance. But you, you, you, you, you.
You can't clip wings of free spirits too, too much so, yeah.
And but they're all if you ask them all.
And I spend time with Spencer and Perry.
I saw them at property mark one the other day.
You know, they, they used to still talk affectionately,
fondly of those previous days. And then they talk about the
growth pains they're having with staff and.
People, the things that they maybe would moan about back
then, they now several years. Obviously hindsight's a
wonderful thing, but then they're like, I get it now, like
my. We're all going to make a
mistake seven years in. I mean, Shane, Shane and Mark,
you know, Shane's comments on your podcast were absolutely
flatteringly wonderful. They were so kind of him.
But you know, he, he, he was the person that's doing the work.
He's the him and Mark taking the risks.
They've built an incredible business and they're, they're
passionately wedded to that High Street having just opened, yeah,
another office. And you know, they, they will
just keep pushing boundaries and, and installing the belief
in their people as I didn't change.
But his belief was there anyway. He didn't.
He didn't need that. In terms of like work ethic,
having spent a fair bit of time with Tom Panos over the last
couple of weeks, when he's sort of talking about AI and it's
like AI can't outsource push ups.
Obviously we call them press OPS I think in the UK, but like
you've still got to actually do the work.
I see plenty of agents being like, can't I just pay someone
to do it? And it's like you, you've got
all this stuff that can help you, but it's not there to
substitute. It's there to enhance what
you're doing so you can spend more time in living rooms having
conversations and doing the business.
Jimmy Carter, did you listen to the Jimmy Carr podcast with
Stephen Barner? I think it was.
I think it's been on a couple of times.
I have listened to it, yeah. Yeah, most people talk, you
know, think Jimmy Carter is going to be comedy and
everything, but it's it was it was absolutely fascinating and
brilliant. And I think he said the beetles
weren't worried about the bootleg beetles because you
know, in in in AI terms, you've, you know, Oasis aren't worried
about an Oasis. You've got to, you know, you
steep keep creating original content, original products and
original customer interaction that builds true empathy.
What AI can help you do is say, right, these are the 1st 100
people you should call in, in my belief, because these people are
active on your website right now.
So, you know, I went to see how the iceberg system worked just
out before I went on the podcast because I thought, I don't want
to go on the podcast just to talk about my journey.
I was trying to understand what their journey was.
So I went to see how that works in, in an estate agent's office.
So in Harris Wood and and they they were showing me how you
know, you can see that Simon Gates is on your website now and
actually you valued Simon Gates house four years ago.
So give Simon Gates call. So it's like a is got you in the
race. It's like teed you up and it's
like right now you've got to hit that home run.
The human still needs to be involved with it.
And just at the timing of this podcast as well, again, one of
the massive takeaways, the key take away that I've already
implemented to speed to action from what Tom was saying was the
walk and talk videos. So I've done plenty of stuff in
studios. Several years ago, I'd literally
hit record and I'd be sat in this office at home, but it'd be
just very much me talking at the screen.
So I've done a few of these walking talks which have gone
incredibly well. Now I'm using AI to help me
prepare. Some people might realise that,
they might not, but I've still got to look you in the eye of a
camera and record that content and have that conversation.
So AI is making it easier for me to have the conversation, but
then I still have to have it. Yeah, yeah.
And and you know, TomTom panel spoke at several of our
conferences. He was he was incredible and
huge foresight of Paul to have brought him over and you know,
one of the first ones to bring Tom into the country and you
know, our our team's absolutely loved it.
I'm sure they're still using a lot of that content today as
your tribe got your vibe and getting your push ups on the
stage and etcetera. And and you know, lots of
mentoring and and one on ones. He he he was brilliant.
He's an inspiration and you know, I think that and a lot of
what he talks about and the referrals and the
recommendations and, you know, making sure that everybody in
your marketplace knows who you are and what you do is is what
it's all about. Whether you're employed,
self-employed or, you know, in financial services or in in in
lettings or in 80. Is there anybody else that you
know that you think would benefit from my service?
Oh yeah. So, right, so a couple points,
what you said that the amount of agents I speak to and the
classic line where it is a badge of honor of where does your
business come from? It's all referrals, sorry,
referrals, recommendations, word of mouth and I'm still shocked
how many times ago interesting how many times you ask for
recommendations. I go, I don't.
So your business comes from recommendations.
You're not even asking for it. Imagine if you just said to each
person who's one of a person you can introduce me to to help move
home in 2026. You do a lot more business and
then you mentioned. It's it's, but it's, it's very
valuable in recruitment. So I've just moved you out of
your company because you're very unhappy there.
So if you're unhappy, is everyone else that's unhappy?
Oh, yeah. Give James a call.
He's, he's proper. He's proper unhappy.
At home, at home search, there were BDMS making hundred calls a
day. I was not someone who wanted to
cold call estate agents. I say to an agent, look, you're
a brilliant estate agent who's one other agent, you know, that
doesn't compete with you, you think would get true value out
of using home search. Introduce me.
Bang. There we go.
So, yeah. Love it.
So you mentioned something earlier and it reminded me of
Make Mondays Matter. How long?
How long has Make Mondays Matter been going for now?
Six years and 5 1/2 years. Six years.
Every every Monday. Every Monday, Well, I, I will do
48 of them a year and then maybe some people might step in
depending where I, I am. I mean, I've often done it when
I'm away or abroad or or at an event, but yeah, yeah, every
single Monday without fail. So yeah.
Because and the whole purpose of it, Simon, is not because I'm,
you know, need to get some energy out of my, myself on a
Monday morning. It's because 60, according to I
think it was Harvard, 65% of people dread going to work on a
Monday. So they've got the Monday Blues
that leads to stress that leads to anxiety, leads to rouse leads
to dysfunctional behaviour, which is why in in our charity
events that we do the paddle, etcetera.
We raise money for mind who also will say that the Monday Blues
is is a real thing. And because we only work in
sector, so our, our clients, either the B to B world or in
estate agency or lettings don't come to us saying, can you find
me a barista who wants to become a block manager or an estate
agent? They, they, they can find those
types of candidate themselves on indeed, etcetera, or just by
going and getting great service from somebody.
And you know, we did a lot of this.
You, you think I was the estate agent, I was a recruiter for,
for many years. You know, we, we, we get served
by somebody in a restaurant, somebody in a Currys PC World,
you know, have you thought about being an estate agent because
it's still perceived as a oh, estate agent company car, mobile
phone, you know, see it as a step up.
So we, we, that's my train of thought is I'm just getting too
excited make money. So we only move in sector.
So if you're unhappy with the company that you're working
with, firstly, is that because you are, you know, fighting
everything all the time? Because, you know, if you, if
you work for McDonald's, you know, you have a process to
follow and you, you don't sort of suggest that they might want
to put a bit of extra salt on or cook the chips a little bit
longer. You follow the process.
So if you choose to work for an organization, I think you should
go all in on that organization. But if you are truly unhappy or
you've got a boss that you know, you just don't connect with or
whatever it may be, then we can move you.
We we can help you move to another business in the same
industry. That means on a Sunday night,
you're looking forward to going to work on on on a Monday,
you're happy. And you know, happiness is just
the be all and end all for me on this journey we all call life
because you don't look back there.
You're 85 years old and go, that was pretty shit.
You want to think that was pretty, pretty good.
So yeah, make, make Mondays matter.
Is is what it's all about. And our statistics will show
that everybody we have moved and placed has moved for a better
salary and benefits. So we we don't move people
sideways. People will be moved for a a
beneficial move, which hopefully means that they're getting a
beneficial mindset. Interesting.
Yeah. Yeah.
I couldn't help but think that, you know, just how much time we
spend at work throughout our life.
If you're not happy in your work life, how that is going to
overflow into your personal life, like you're waking up
miserable, going home miserable. It's super.
Important to drink more. All the bad stuff.
A lot more, yeah. And and you're not genuine.
So, you know, being real is what it's all all about for us.
And it was one Monday when I did did the video of piss.
Let's do some video. Let's get I did video heavily
before, but let's get jobs out there.
No one else is doing that in our space.
Lots of people maybe try, but then they drop off.
So you've got to be consistent as you know, if you're going to
do anything, you've got to be consistent whether people are
giving you feedback or not. But, and I think I just said we
can help make your Mondays matter and that that's stuck,
it's got a bit more of a reason behind it.
Yeah, I love, I love. Love the other days are
available, but if you get Monday right you probably get the rest
of the week. Right, Yeah, yeah.
But I think it's it's it's it's great.
Like having a a tagline. I'm sure people come up to you
at conferences, Russell Make Mondays matter, and I.
Was at the Chelsea Flower Show last year and with my wife and
we the first time we've been was her birthday tree.
Right We're going to go and do this and this lady just walked
out of nowhere. And when make Mondays matter?
Brilliant. She said tell Josh I'm here.
So yeah, suddenly Mr. Rainn is on the on, on the on the
FaceTime and then off, off we go.
Fantastic. And you mentioned on the, the
consistency thing, I've, I've got a touch on that because if
you, if you just said sort of 5 1/2 years, we we must be talking
almost 300. Yeah, I think I did.
Mondays matter. It was my six year anniversary I
think and on the 1st of June and I I worked out something like
we've done the 365 Mondays matter.
Crazy. So anyone listening to this a
lot of the time, and I've, I've interviewed loads of people on
this podcast, have gone to loads of events inside outside of
industry. And you're like, right, what's
this like magic ingredient? What's this silver bullet?
And it's like consistency and most agents quit before momentum
arrives. Make sure you set the game long
enough to to be there longer than than your other
competitors. Yeah, and, and you know,
whatever you do, prepare, get, you know, we're a big event
tonight in London. So we're at the Long Res event.
So we're sponsoring the Long Res event.
You know, we've, we've made sure we announced that we're going
there. So people know we're going
there. We've got our business cards
ready. We've got our rain of shades
ready. We've got the rain of footballs
ready. We'll, you know, we, we, we, we,
we, we're going to, we're going to make sure that we maximize
the value of of that event. The marketable moments, I was
having this exact conversation with an agent earlier, like when
you were doing maths exam, you'd get extra marks for showing your
workings out. So it's like, don't just go to
the event, make sure that everyone knows about it.
So like the, the obviously the football, the World Cup chart,
sunglasses, I think tissues at women's stages, the conference.
I've got a T-shirt, same rain and personnel from when I play
paddle. So no, I absolutely love it.
Right before we come on to the final part of the the podcast,
just going to the 2 Russell's, so second best podcast in the
industry second. One was third best yesterday, so
we've moved forward. So for anyone listening,
obviously go check out two wrestlers podcast.
I I love watching it. The sad person I am.
I watch your your podcast, Matt Gibbs podcast.
I'm gonna have my lunch and dinner some.
I just love the love the state industry so much.
But from all the episodes you've recorded and all the people
you've interviewed, obviously lots of high performance there.
What's a common trait you keep seeing in people over and over
again? Pretty much every single one of
those people has bounced back from some form of adversity.
Almost. You'd almost encourage failure
if I was going to give anybody some advice is go fail at
something. Because based on 57 people that
I've met, every single one of them who has now got a
successful business you've mentioned, three or four of them
today have had some kind of failure in or event in their
life that that wasn't planned. And that almost gave them a
resilient shield. To think nothing can get worse
than this. So I hope that this doesn't
offend anyone listening and I hope it comes out the right way.
And I can't remember where I would have first ever heard
this, but it's like, you've got twins and what, 1 is an
alcoholic and one is tea total. Why you an alcoholic?
My dad was an alcoholic. Why tea total?
My dad was an alcoholic. So it's like one of two ways I
can go. So I want to go down this path.
And yeah, I agree with you. I certainly learned from Tom
over the past couple of weeks. Those that have succeeded have
faced adversity. I.
Remember Tom telling Sophie still tells there, telling a
story about being in a gym in in the hospital, the cancer unit
and the the someone say you can't be in here and he's saying
something like of all the gyms in Sydney, do you think I'd
choose this one? Yeah, yeah.
Exactly. He said when he was in Ireland,
he said the person on the front desk at the hotel, they had a
problem for every solution rather than a solution for every
problem. And it's like, look, your minds
here, right. OK, so before we get on to
closing tradition, I've got a new thing I'm doing on the
podcast now, which is the little game of big choices, impossible
decisions. And it's quite branded brain and
personnel actually. Yeah, don't show Josh that we'll
be getting your 500 orders. So some quick fire questions
here. So would you rather go on a
European backpacking holiday or a relaxing Caribbean holiday?
Oh good question. I'm I'm going to go on a
European backpacking holiday. OK.
Would you rather be able to detect any lie you hear, or get
away with any lie you tell? I I think the sub 35 me would be
get away with any lie I can tell but I'd now like to detect.
OK, would you rather meet a space alien or someone from the
past? Someone from the past.
OK. And then final one before the
closing question. Would you rather you could only
speak in a whisper or only shout?
Well, a fantastic question. I don't think Make Monday's
Matter would come across well as a whisper.
OK, cool. Right.
Final question. So closing tradition completely
ripped off from Stephen Butler, as you know, he gets a net.
Last guest asked the next guest a question not knowing who they
are. And this question was asked by
Daniel Priestley, which I'm going to want you to answer.
And I'm a huge fan of Daniel Priestley.
So the question, Russell, is what experience did you have at
around the age of 10 to 13 where you discovered your own power to
get things done without your parents being involved?
I around around that age we backed onto a school playing
field, playing from the Colster Grammar School.
So our house backed on to that grammar school.
There was a groundsman there, his name Peter, can't remember
his surname, Peter Bannister. So yeah, remember his surname.
Me and my brother used to play cricket over over there against
the tree and he used to be going around his business and I came
became very inquisitive around everything he was doing, which
resulted in me then becoming like almost a little assistant
at the weekends, cutting the pitches, cutting the outfields,
doing lots of jobs. So almost my first job that I
went and found myself and I just found that I could talk to
people at at any level at that that point.
Nice, love that. I think my answer to that
question probably would have been paper round.
I remember buzzing when I got my first paper round.
I was rubbish of the paper round.
I failed miserably. Yeah, I think my my other one,
maybe I could do the Rubik's Cube very, very quickly.
And I remember being on holiday in Switzerland, but my mum and
dad would have taken me there. So, but I was used to just sit
in the bar doing the Rubik's Cube and people were mesmerised
by that. I got I got free drinks free
free free diet Cokes for doing the Rubik's Cube.
So the next time I see if I turn out with a.
Rubik do it. No I no I I I I I I I.
Two years ago, I got go back to and COVID I, I got myself back
to be able to do it, but I've lost the knack.
I tried the other day and get 3/4 of the way there.
But I will take that away from here, Simon, today to make sure
that by the time I next see you at the Kerfuffle conference, I
can do the Rubik's Cube. Very, very good, right?
For everyone listening at home, please do remember to like
review, subscribe, follow share. If you're obviously in the
market for a a new job and you want to reach out to Russell and
have a chat with him, of course do.
That, or you've got a job to fill.
Or if you've got a job to fill, reach out to Russell.
And that just leaves me say, Mr. Russell Jervis, thank you very
much for being an amazing guest. I very much appreciate it.
Thank you, Simon. Thanks for having me.