Hello and welcome to Open Gates to more listings for Estate
agents with me, Simon Gates. I'm delighted to be joined today
by Mr. Simon Ledbetter. Simon, thank you very much for
joining me. Thank you for the invite, good
to talk to you again. You're very welcome.
I should just have that as the automated intro to this podcast.
You might, you bloody appear on it these days.
The entire plan behind the voice of the agent was to appear on
Open the Gates as many times as possible.
Yeah, well, it's that certainly working.
And anyone who just heard a crash, that was me knocking over
my microphone because I'm so excited to have this
conversation. Right.
OK, Where are we? So for those of you playing
along at home, we are starting on page 22.
So how capable would you say you are in navigating new technology
product, products, should I say, and services?
Which one of the following statements best describes you?
So we've got the great British public and then we've got real
estate professionals. Yeah.
That's the one. I've got an opinion on this from
some recent conversations that I've had, but I'm curious to
find out what you make of that before I share.
Yeah, I thought it was really interesting and actually he goes
quite nicely into page 23. We'll talk a little bit.
He's actually put the two bits of data together.
You guys been tracking this data for yonks and I thought actually
as this report is about tech and AI and I talk at length on 30
years of marketing one day about the adoption or diffusion of
innovation. How how how tech savvy, how tech
adopting is a certain different target market.
We all get very excited by the new and improved, but not
everyone is excited about the new and improved.
People quite like the status quo.
So I just want to understand where real estate people sat on
that spectrum. And I think we kind of
summarized it really well. My writer, when he put it down,
was this is an industry that will adopt, but rarely first and
rarely without proof. So I've witnessed in the last 10
years, we're an industry more sinned against than sinning in
the sense that we have technology innovation slightly
pushed upon us. There are some early adopters,
there's some innovators and they often leading the pack.
And the data says, you know, if you adopt technology early,
you've got an advantage. But genuine as industry, we seem
to be a bit resistant and hesitant about it.
And that's borne out in the data in terms of, you know, we're not
in the laggards generally, I'm not very interested in nor do I
buy new technology. You know, we're slightly better
than the population whole, but we're big in the next group.
I am not usually one of the first to be interested.
So we kind of we're followers, We're not leaders as an
industry. Obviously there's exceptions to
the rules, individuals, which is kind of interesting for an
industry where prop tech is such prop tech has been such a big
noise for so long. So yeah, what's your theory?
But the reason I, I asked you to explain the findings from, from
the the survey was that the conversations I've been having,
let me, let me start that again. The amount of conversations
within this industry at the moment, you cannot finish a
sentence without AI like it is everywhere.
And it's actually mad that I we can say that this industry can
be behind the curve when it comes to other industries being
innovative and maybe being a bit further forward with tech.
We talk about UK estate agency perhaps being 5-10 years behind
America or Australia when it comes to certain trends.
But what I found is that when I'm speaking to friends, family
members of the public, it seems to be estate agents are talking
a lot more about AI or using AIA, lot more than when I'm just
having a conversation at a pub, for example.
So like, I spoke to a business owner the other day over the
bank holiday weekend, and he's like, yeah, like I've used
ChatGPT a little bit. And I went, all right, you
should check out Claude. And he's like, what's that?
I was like, you've not heard of Claude?
He's like, no, I was like, how much you use AI?
He's like, not a lot. I was like, would you say that
you're using chat a bit like you use Google?
He went, yeah, pretty much. And that that is kind of a lot
of what I've I've found. So that is just me, anecdotal
rather than actually, you know, surveying hundreds or thousands
of people. But I just found it interesting.
Yeah. I mean, I think it is
interesting because actually we've got the hard data in this
rule. We'll come on to it.
It kind of surprised me. We talked about it last time and
it's the suspicion that Heather Stafford had from Street and I
had had is we were sampling as best we could, but we might be
sampling slightly a more tech savvy tech adopting, adopting
audience. So this is where we did the
methodology. We actually did a completely
random sampling of several 100 estate agents, see where they
sat, and a staggering number of them aren't using AI at all.
And that surprised me. I thought it pretty much
everyone will be using it in a little bit.
And that's what the research sort of bore out yesterday is
we'd seen a growth, but the growth was amongst those people
who are generally doing it. What we actually saw was a
significant number of people, just under half literally just
aren't using it. Meanwhile, we measure the data
back in September last year for homeowners and we saw depending
on where you were on the property journey between 1 and
3%, one and 3 1/2%, I think it was we're using AI to help them
in the process. That's gone up to 38%.
Wow, OK. So we were kind of expect when
we reported it and we had you Gov there and talked at the
Voice of the Agent conference last year.
We looked at the numbers and they were suddenly within the
next 12 months, this is going to be big, this is going to be
rapid growth. We didn't see rapid growth, we
saw exponential growth. So it's really interesting how
this is happening is I think we're seeing a great divide.
We've probably always had that divide.
There are the tech adopters, the AI users and there is the rest.
And while we're in industry where we're slightly insulated,
I think against how tech effects industries, you can be a good
agent and be really quite in the general word traditional.
We'll start to see as the next generation of home movers moves
into the market, a divide. I'm actually working on a
project helping business exit at the moment with an American
friend of mine, and we're seeing a large flood of businesses
where you've got the baby boomers or early Gen.
X's exiting because they've been through the Internet social
media chain. They don't want to do another
one. So it's get out before the shift
happens because AI is going to change everything and it, it
literally is going to change everything.
And if you don't think that's going to happen, you need to go
look at history and sort of look at something called the
Industrial Revolution and what it did, because that's kind of
the shift we're living in. Biggest.
So I guess with what you just said there on AI, is it going to
speed up the biggest transference of wealth we've
ever seen? Yes, absolutely.
It's it's smashing up any existing model.
And you know, I was actually writing an article for someone
the other day. And the top naughty point, 1% in
the world is richer than they have ever been in the entire
history of human civilization and by some distance.
And we're about to see that happen even more.
Yeah. Great, happy times.
So on a couple of things you said there, the great divide,
you said, I found that interesting because I couldn't
help but think. And when you were talking about
the great divide, and I don't know if I've shared this with
you before, if it's been on the podcast, but this must be a year
ago. I was up in Cheshire, the fancy
golden triangle part of Cheshire for all this country.
And I needed to get some petrol on on the way home.
And I was like, well, I'm not going to pay the extortion
amounts, you know, down the service station route, I'm sure
there's somewhere nearby. And I just go onto my SAT NAV,
find a petrol station and I pull up.
Have I told you this before? No no, but I I I've literally
just done it recently for EV charging one.
Right, so I so I pull up at this petrol station and it felt like
I was in the Outback in Australia or like AI don't know,
a 1950s American film or something.
And I I'm just get out my car and this guy sort of comes
towards me. It's like kind of help you.
I was like, yeah, I'm just thing not with petrol.
He went, how much do you want? I was like, this is this is
really weird. I was like, oh, wow, I'm going
to get a full tank. He went, yeah, brilliant.
OK, if you go and wait inside the office and I'll get that
sorted for you. I went all right, OK.
Walked into your office. He had like a proper old school
radio playing with like talk sport.
And then he came back in and he said, right, that's however much
it was and go to pay, Apple Pay. He's like, Oh no, we don't, we
don't do any of that. So that was the great divide in
in what I'm saying is that I'm sure there are plenty of certain
people who love going to that petrol station and going all
right, John, how you doing mate? Yeah, fill the tank up, pay in
cash, whatever, but and then you've got the other person who
goes, I want to go to pay at the pump and then Apple Pay, Bing,
there you go. Don't have to talk to a human
being or go even further where you're talking about electric
side of things. It's kind of I think I just
thought that was a real life example of that great divide
that I experienced myself. Yeah, I think what we, what we
miss, I think, you know, if you're kind of like, you know,
you're in a nice, not in a nice way.
You're in the more cutting edge crew because you're talking to
everyone, you're speaking to all the great thinkers and we have
to kind of sort of immunise ourself against this is the
people we're speaking to are not representative.
Yeah, because if you look at page 23 and we'll get on to it,
but it's interesting how you, if you divide the population up
between what is tech literacy and there's 3 levels, the
struggle to learn, the OK to learn and the quick to learn and
the adoption attitudes. There's 4 levels. 1st to buy
interested, but wait, wait until others not interest.
Do not buy 65%, what we call the red group bear the divide.
That's not moving with the times, but it's a much smaller
group. You know what is that?
That's 1920 percent. 20% are OK to learn and they're adopting,
but only 2% are in the top extreme of quick learn and 1st
to buy. So if you've got a new prop tech
out there, you've got to consider that 65% of your
audience is they wait and they struggle to learn.
So you've got to kind of build technology that is very easy to
use, you know, really, really easy to use if you want the
majority. But also, you need to find a way
to get those early adopters to be your advocates to the people
who are going to follow. I think for any for any sorry to
cut across your time for any project, any prop tech companies
or people working in prop tech company listening to this right
now. You need to rewind and just kind
of hear the last 36 seconds of what Simons said there.
Find those quick learners early to adopt, interested to buy, get
them using it and then get them to tell their friends and then
see it go on from there. And I couldn't help but think of
my own experience, particularly in home search days of how
powerful that was when we were really early doors and
penetrating the right sort of market and then that leading on
to others. So, very quick example, Sam
Hunter knew exactly what he's doing when he approached people
like Perry Power. Yes.
Very early adopter innovator started using it, told loads of
people, others followed. And that's the good thing about
this industry. There's some really good
advocates for the industry who will adopt A technology.
Perry is an amazing example of that.
People like David Adams up in Avendish, but you know, also,
you know, pundits and rent a gobs.
You, me, Christopher Watkin, others out there, if we like it,
we'll talk about it. No, we don't tend to.
We won't recommend stuff that's rubbish and tells you.
I get approached by a load of tech companies and I kind of go,
yes, right, I can see what it does, but I know what you need
to do this industry, which is it's got to be as easy as an
iPhone. And I've literally just 24 hours
ago released my weekly journal for I Produce on sub Stack.
And I said in there, I've just started using a platform website
basically called Review Extra and basically gets all your
reviews from Google, notifies you by e-mail.
When you get a review, you click on it and then it produces an
infographic that you can share straight away on social media.
It's so easy to use. And then I've gone on to my
journal and said to estate agents, you should look at this,
which again is just reiterating what you've just been saying.
Yeah, you know, there's, there's people who have basically, I
mean, it's not a present term, but idea virus people is.
We're propagators of ideas. So if we see something good,
we'll share it. And it takes.
And there's a great video I've just shared actually on LinkedIn
about how network effects happen.
They've got 2 balls bouncing around a circle and every time
the balls hit, another one spawns.
So nothing happens for ages. You've got to watch this with a
lot of places. They're bouncing around, the
thing going come on, hit each other, then because each other,
the first time another one appears and the time between
that one and the next one. So he gets very sore there and
within seconds it goes and fills the screen.
And it's that network effect of finding people who are the
connectors, the people who sell, sorry, the salespeople who are
out there and wanting out. Malcolm Gladwell called the
mavens, the ones who go out and share the ideas.
OK, Yeah. So you need different types of
people out there to kind of help you.
But if you are a tech company, bear in mind that you need to
find the one in 50 who are quick learners and 1st to buy.
Nice thing as I have a really detailed profile of who they are
and you just need to find them and talk to them because they're
the ones who it's Everett Rogers, the diffusion of
innovation curve. You need to find the innovators
to get to the early majority. So the early adopters, the early
majority, late majority. Then finally we're in that 7%
who struggle to learn and not interested.
Do not buy who are nicely called the laggards, and they'll come
at the end, very end, probably the time you've moved on to the
next generation of something else entirely.
Yeah. Very true.
So page 24, so not moving on very far.
That was a a long instruction. Now on the first page and
classic 2 Simons. Oh dear.
Hype cycles, yes. So I think kind of this is a
obviously where it's positioned in the report it it's a nice add
on to what we've just been discussing.
But for those who are not playing along at home, if you're
out walking, the dogs are in the car, whatever and can't see this
report, can you just talk through the hype cycles?
So I think it's really interesting.
Yeah, so Gartner, they do great reports Gartner.
Well, they kind of developed, I forget when it was, but this
thing called the Hype Cycle. We're seeing these waves of
technology coming out and what happens is a new technology
triggers. If you can read this, great.
If you can't, I'll describe. It's a very simple graph.
There's a sudden rise in interest, what we call the peak
of inflated expectations. So we get a sudden rise up to
this mass aspeak. So every this new AI can do
everything or the new technology can do everything.
And then reality catches up and the hype suddenly collapse into
what's called the through of disillusionment.
And this is where reality is. And we actually get to where it
would have been had we not had this massive peak of inflated
expectations. We then get the slope of
enlightenment as we genuinely learn how to use this
technology. And then finally it reaches the
steady state, the plateau of productivity.
Every product, every new tech cycle, tech has been through
this cycle. Everything where you know, you
get the people rushing in, those, those innovators and
early adopters rushing and going.
This is amazing. Everyone must do it.
It does everything and then it doesn't.
You know, we're seeing a lot of companies who laid off thousands
of people going. Let's not keep hiring people
back now because I realise this doesn't work that well.
So you get this through of disillusionment.
But reality kits, kits in the changes occurred, but the hype
has made it bigger than it is. It doesn't mean ignore the
change. It simply says that this, it's,
it's to be expected. We can map it, we can predict
it. And there's a great more
advanced model of this you can just find online.
Do the AI hype cycle. And it shows where all the
different types of AI have actually sat now, you know, from
the ones that are out and they've now basically just
entered our, our, our, our normal way of living.
We just don't notice them because they're so effective
versus the ones that are generally revolutionary that are
going through a bit of hype. But they'll settle as they
always do. And the point is, again, blast
lines in my these books are always where these technologies
will not fail. The challenge is to judge where
they sit on the curve. Are you right and trust you?
Some things, when they go through the through of
disillusionment, actually fail at that point.
Does anyone remember NFTS? Yeah.
And how amazing they were going to be.
Now actually, they've entered the world in a different way.
Just as black blockchain technology is doing stuff
outside the whole cryptocurrency noise, it's doing very clever
scenes. So it's entered the platter of
productivity. But when things enter the
platter of productivity, they tend to disappear and we don't
see them. It's fair to say that the
metaverse came to nothing. It's like you say on that
metaverse point there. That's an interesting one
because I remember being actually there's an FIA
conference a few years ago and I was on a panel, I was on a panel
with Heather staff actually. And I said something along the
lines of technology is amazing, but we just need to remember
this is a people business. And when you're dealing with
people's most prized tax free asset, most of the time they've
gone, they're going to want to feel like there's someone they
can go and sit with and have a cup of tea and just make sure
everything is OK. And I said that the best agents
will still be able to pick up the phone and have a
conversation. Now, Heather, I think we're both
right. And what we said, Heather, was
like, it's the death of phone call.
Like people are not going to pick up the phone.
People are not going to make phone calls.
There's going to be texts, etcetera, etcetera.
But one point that was made from the audience where a question
was asked about the metaverse. And I, I think I said I ain't
got a freaking clue about it. I have no idea.
And I remember like walking out of that going, God, am I missing
a trick there? That's like God.
And then you've just mentioned it.
I haven't. I don't think I've ever thought
about the metaverse since that panel, which was probably 4
years ago. Yeah, I mean, we know we've been
here before. Interesting about the telephones
is I was actually with the guys at Moneypenny.
I did some research and I put it into a presentation I did to
them is the number one channel to talk to a company, not to
receive from a company, but to talk to them is still fine.
So while people don't want to, I think it's some you go present
some amazing stats at the conference about how just people
just don't answer the phone anymore.
No one answers the phone. But they will use the phone to
call someone. So it's a there's different
forces happening there. Willingness to answer phone near
0 desire to use a phone to contact the company about 1/3.
So phones are still valuable. Regarding the metaphors, I mean,
I don't need to remember Second Life.
So in the naughties, I'm that old, in the naughties when I was
working for a dragon, Dragons Den, there's this company raised
a lot of money, I'm sure it's called Second Life.
It was basically a very early version of the metaverse, you
know, and they were selling, you know, they were doing concerts
online, they were doing retail online.
You could buy a property. It was going to be the next big
thing and it faded away. And then we get the metaverse
next big thing. And then it fades away.
Because the reality, what we've actually realised, is meeting
people in reality, is way nicer than spending your entire time
on a screen. And while there'll be a slug of
the population that likes to do things entirely online and
pretend to be something they're not for good or for I'll, the
vast majority is actually quite like going down to the pub on a
Friday and meeting our mates, or going to a golf course, or
climbing into bed with a beautiful woman.
You know, these things are far better in real life than done
with a series of ones and zeros on.
So yeah. So.
So my view is that you're 100% right.
I even in the next report, the one we write about people and
salary, I say there's an alternative to working in a
state agency. There's many alternative jobs to
work in. But actually in the coming wave
of innovation with AI, there's an aspect of insulation to the
property industry. If you do it right, if you're
just going to put stuff on a portal and pray, thank you Gavin
Swan for giving me that line. I'm going to use it
relentlessly. Just put those properties in a
portal and pray you can be replaced.
But if you know the art of being an estate agent or a letting
agent and you add real value to a relationship and can manage
complexity and an incredible negotiator, as you say, it's
your biggest asset. And I think people still value
people. I, I said to Rome Wall this
morning, who I caught up with, is in a world where everything
is digital and AI, human beings become the vinyl of the future.
We're more valuable because the one thing we have is judgement.
Algorithms don't have judgement. I was listening to a podcast
with Yanis Xarephakis, the former Greek finance minister,
and he was an incredible economist, incredible
mathematician, over and above being a finance minister.
And it's the most economic models are broken.
They don't work. Algorithms don't work, none of
them do. None of the things, communism,
capitalism, all the rules of monetarism, none of it works.
It's all nonsense because it pretends the real world doesn't
exist. So what you need is judgement.
For economies to work, you need judgement.
And that's what you need from selling your most expensive
asset. Yes, you can do the square
footage calculation, but you can't get someone who's going to
go, as you say, regularly, and I know you've heard as well
elsewhere, is it there's no property market, There's a
market for your property and that's a judgement call.
And I'd love what you said as well.
Is, is it, is it every property's on the market, just
some of them are more determined because they happen to be on
right move and he's got more apparent about it.
But everybody now no AI is going to do that.
Yeah, that's an estate agent or letting agent skill.
Anyway, shut me up Simon, because I'm just waffle on this
subject. There's.
There's, there's loads of really, really valuable bits in
there. In terms of a, again, few things
you were saying, I think this was a phrase coined by Brian
Mansell. I heard Brian Mansell say a long
time, well, not a long time ago, probably a year ago, and he was
talking about AI and he went actual intelligence.
And I, I've sat on a few panels recently talking about AI and
I've been like, you could have the best text system, processes,
automation in the world. But if I turn up into Mr.
Ledbetter's living room and he thinks I'm a freaking idiot, I'm
not winning that business. Someone else could turn up who
had sent the confirmation letter in the post, never sent a text
or an e-mail, didn't have the best website, social media or
automated, but gets in Simon's living room and he goes, God,
what a pleasant chap. And he he certainly knows his
onions. I'm going to go with him.
So just wanted to share that. And then just you mentioned on
emails and this would have been really good for Part 2.
I think we. Yes, we did get Part 2 channels,
yeah. In terms of channels, you've
mentioned about e-mail, and I saw a couple of quotes from Tom
Ferry recently which I wrote down.
I'm probably going to butcher them, but one was it's the only
online media source without an algorithm.
You send an e-mail, it goes straight to the top of the
inbox. And I was just like.
That proves Simon's point of why e-mail is still so powerful in
this day and age. It's a real shame.
It's got a bad name. And I think, yeah, there was a
lot of spam around it. There's a lot of, you know,
various printers offering millions of pounds and all that
kind of stuff. But that all kind of is dealt
with. It's waves of that come through
and they get dealt with. But I just find it interesting
that it's magic numbers now. Part of Analytic Partners has
tracked this since 2004. Open rates are flat on e-mail
since 2004. Click rates have increased since
lockdown, so e-mail has become more effective than it's ever
been. I've tracked which channel
people say gets them to buy things since 2018.
When I first got the data it was about 19% of people said it was
their channel that drove them to get activity, get buy to buy
things. Now it's 23%.
I I would say for myself personally, like if I'm
purchasing something, it's from e-mail marketing.
It's just, you know, you, you kind of, you can unsubscribe so
easily. So send an e-mail.
If people unsubscribe, fine, So what?
They wouldn't have wanted yourself anyway.
But the people who remain cherish them because if they're
receiving your emails and they're reading your emails, a
vast number of them will not act until they're ready to act.
And if you remember the 95 five rule of the B to B linked
Institute, 95% of people are not in the markets at any one point.
Yeah. So only 5% of people will be.
Therefore, if around 5% or fewer perhaps are clicking on your
emails, hopefully more than that, but that's good.
That means the interested people are clicking on your emails, but
they're all opening it. And it's that passive drip.
Drip feeding good old Ebbinghauser's Forgetting Curve
28 times to see the thing before you remember it is you just drip
feeding your message into someone's inbox, into someone's
consciousness every time. And as that guy said, direct to
the top of the box, direct to that person, no other noise.
Brilliant. Direct mail does something
similar in the real world. So, you know, these things work
together and it's it's just human behavior.
It's human nature. I like the lines with Guillermo
del Toro. I like actual intelligence.
I love Guillermo del Toro. When he asked, he was asked
about artificial intelligence. He had.
I don't fear artificial intelligence.
I fear natural stupidity. Yeah.
And I agree with that. Yeah, very true.
Just the last bit on on this before moving on.
I have written down in my book when it comes to sort of tech
and AI and I don't know where I originally saw this, but first
comes fear, then comes resistance, then comes adoption,
then comes transformation, then comes how on earth did we live
without this? Always.
And that's true of all things. That's true of any innovation
technology to do with marketing techniques.
You know, if you give people insight, for example, proper
market research. My problem is I started my
marketing career in market research.
I can't live without it. I need to understand what a
market is in detail before I actually do anything because
that's how good marketing is done.
But you give someone some insight about a market and go,
this is who your customers really are.
That's what they really think and they're like, how do we
operate before we had that? I mean, we've been making so
many assumptions that are wrong. It's I love that that that
taxonomy send me that taxonomy. I need that taxonomy of fear
resistance. Bloody come off it now Simon.
Fair resistance. Fair resistance adoption.
Yeah. And then there was something
else. Then how did we ever live
without this? We need to go.
We need to think of a person in the mnemonic for that.
So it's an easy phrase to remember.
But that, yeah, 100% that's that's really, yeah.
See it everywhere. Yeah, that's fair.
So sorry. Fear resistance, adoption,
transformation. How did we live without this I?
Suppose it's almost like the antithesis of the hype cycle,
which is, yeah, over enthusiasm followed by epic disappointment
and disillusionment. And yeah, it's same thing, Same
thing, just a different lens to look for and.
Then the going back to like the actual intelligence and we've
talked about tech AI just said e-mail.
You obviously being the fantastic marketer you are, but
then there are just sometimes going back to the telephone
where success is literally like there in front of you.
Yeah, we'll do anything but go in for the kill.
And what I mean by that is I've shared something on my Instagram
Story earlier today and the title was The Sad Truth of Sales
in 2026. Sales manager says give the
prospects a call. Sales Rep says I've emailed
them, Manager replies, be quicker to call them though.
Sales Rep, I've texted them as well.
Manager, surely it's quick. It's just call them.
The Rep, I've added them on LinkedIn, the sales manager,
just give them a bloody call. Sales Rep, I'll just send
another e-mail. And that that reminded me of a
certain generation towards the end of my time as an agent,
where I then said to the guy, I was like, he was a Man U fan.
I was like, imagine, right, you had to get hold of this person.
And when they answer the phone, you've got tickets to the
Champions League final. Like, what are you doing?
Well, I've been freaking calling them, right.
Well, at the end of this phone call could be a £10,000
Commission for companies that like freaking get on with it.
Like I, I think with the phone thing as well.
And then we, we do need to move on.
But I had someone message me today and I think this is kind
of how it now works in my opinion.
Might, might say otherwise, but I had someone WhatsApp me
saying, are you free to talk on the phone today?
I said, yes, I'm free between this time.
This time went great. I'll give you a call when people
ring me unannounced, I'm like, what the Frick are you doing?
I'm busy working and I, I, I don't need the distraction, but
if they message me saying be great to talk on the phone, can
we schedule a time? I'm like, yeah, sweet.
And then we can align our times where we're both free.
And that's why where media converges, if you got their
WhatsApp number, you've also got their mobile number.
So you use both. Yeah.
It's real courtesy to go.
Are you free for a chat now? They might go, yes.
OK. You double locked them in then
because, you know, they're hooked.
They're on the trot for something, on the hook for
something. But also they've said they'll
happily take a call or if they go give me a call in half an
hour. Great.
You almost put yourself at a social advantage because you've
contacted them, you've got permission, they've engaged, but
you've also acknowledge their own busyness.
Yeah. Wait, so all of a sudden you're
in their good books and they're showing they want to.
But yes, I mean, I had it when I was at Knight Frank, when I used
to remark team for Knight Frank is I used to ban e-mail
internally at times and go, I will between these hours or on
these days, I want no e-mail sent internally unless you have
to send an important document. Not not across the broader
company, but within our department because you go
literally get up, walk across the floor, go to the person you
want to talk to and have a conversation, have a dialogue.
And guess what will happen is there'll be an exchange of
ideas. What you've asked for will be
delivered, but they may have a better solution than what you're
asking. So have a conversation with
them. And the resistance was
ridiculous because I've got some stats internally go like what's
the volume of emails my department sends external of the
company within the company, within the department, the
volume of conversation going on within the department.
I said what we need, this is before Slack and things.
We need some sort of internal chat tool that allows us to
chat, but an e-mail should be used for a specific
communication at a specific time to do these things.
And there's still nothing better than just picking up the phone.
Yeah. Brendan Kay and I were arranging
something last week from Parkers in Whitney and I messaged him,
He messaged me, I messaged him, and the next thing I was about
to reply, so he messaged me. I, the inside of me and my phone
rang and we resolved everything in seconds.
That would probably taken 20 more text messages between us to
get, right. Verbal communication is really
efficient. Yeah, we're trying to get
people. So when I tell my teenagers, you
know, you can phone people on that thing now it's a texting
device, OK? Yeah, you've a couple of things
you maybe think there when you ask now a certain generation how
do you answer the phone and they no one will on an audio podcast,
but they press it like that, right, Whereas we go like that,
yeah. Yeah.
So it's that generation of thing, right?
God that was a long intro. Keep keep us focused.
We've only got 20 minutes left and we've only on 2 pages.
So this is going to be in the recording because, you know, I
don't edit. I don't have, I don't have a
hard stop, Simon. OK, cool, perfect, right?
We will still crack on though and not get carried away too
much going forward. So page 26, interesting quote in
that, that growth agents are significantly more likely to use
prop tech tools and crucially to use multiple tools across
different parts of the business. And then on to page 27, to what
extent does your business rely on prop tech platforms to
operate effectively? So yeah, pretty, pretty reliant
on them. We're seeing a passion.
We're seeing a passion forming between the last two reports is
more of everything and that's what seems to lead to growth.
So in marketing, it's more of marketing across more channels.
And here it's more of tech across more, more different
types of tech, I think because, you know, it's sort of obvious.
I mean, it shouldn't be obvious, but it kind of is obvious is
people who are more adopting of various different new ways of
doing work and they're correctly integrating it are more
effective because, you know, I know people who spent hours on
routine tasks. Let's forget AI for a time.
But there is almost always a piece of prop tech out there
that can do it for you in seconds.
Yeah, that can take away the most routine administrative
tasks. It does it better, does it
faster and does it cheaper, which it cute.
It's a three prong. Saving faster, better, cheaper
is what we've all been trying to seek it for what's called a
project trilemma forever. You're only ever supposed to get
two of them, but with prop tech we're able to get all three.
But of course, the backstop always exists is and then you
want a human to oversee it. And if things get complicated,
you want a human to take over, great.
But allow humans to be the do the thing where they add value,
critical thinking, judgement, assessment, complexity and let
technology do the routine. So if you are an agency and
you're adopting this tech in the right way, you suddenly freed up
hours. We did a report, I think it was
the Voice of the Agent 2020 at 2025 part one I think it was,
and we did a lot of research on how much time lettings agents
were spending on various tasks and basically the math said
there aren't enough hours in the week.
I shouldn't say this, but as a member of my family who worked
out that if he if he drove at the speed limit, he wouldn't be
able to do the amount of miles he needed to do to complete his
job. So it basically had to always at
least do 15 miles faster than the speed limit to actually do
his job to cover the locations he was like a regional manager
and covered. So he couldn't do the speed
limit and do it in this way. It was time.
There is literally not enough time for a letting agent to do
their job. So you need tech.
And that's why business can speed themselves up and gain
enormous amount of free time for the people in their tip free
time, time to add do valuable work.
Yeah, which is really additive to the relationship as opposed
to all the invisible admin that no one sees.
Yeah, the what you just said there about the the driving, it
just makes you think back to being an agent where skipping
lunch and getting from appointment to appointment to
appointment. I'm like, yeah, 100% I had to do
over the speed limit to get to those appointments.
Like it was, it was absolutely insane.
And I know like when I when I drive around the road to where I
used to sell houses, like, you know, you know, every corner of
that road inside out. So you knowing what speed you
can like comfortably get get away with.
So it's, yeah, funny what you say there from the letting edge
perspective and then the family member.
I found out when I was a sales Rep in my first job out of
university is I could actually drive in my knees while reading
a map and eating at McDonald's while on the phone.
Then with the days I would never do that now, but it was, you
know, it's got what you can do when you're you're rating
between meetings ago. I've got a deadline, I've got to
get there. And you've been slightly over
ambitious about one too many meetings in your diary.
It's slightly kind of the Parkinson's law there, isn't it?
In in a weird way. So page 30, and I think this
segues on from that quote from page 26, and I think this comes
up in every single report about the difference between growth
agents and all agents is look at the fricking pages that says
what growth agents do, replicate what they do.
And you can't go far wrong. I might have said this in one of
the previous recordings, but Don Marcel being on stage at Mega
camp and sort of talking through his successes and his team were
award after award after award. It's like go and spend time with
Dom, observe what Dom and his team do.
And interestingly, the day after the the the second day of Mega
camp, I saw him and others in his team app viewings and
they've got their Instagram stories saying, hey, today I'm
at 100 Smith St. for an open house.
Da da da da. I'm like, how many other agents
are there doing viewings the next day doing Instagram live or
story or whatever. Anyway, enough of me.
On my I mean success is not hard in this industry, discipline is.
Yeah. And you know, I mean, we, we, we
so we talk so many times. Often did we talk about it last
time was just a conversation we had is there's something about
writing stuff down anyway, write stuff down in an event.
Just write stuff down, get there.
But the the problem is people go to these events, amazing events
that you was you, you said it. They put nothing in their diary
the next day act on what they've learned to make that worse.
They go out and get absolutely smashed the night of the event
and the chance of remembering stuff anyways, you forget 90% of
what you learn within 48 hours. They've not put anything in
their diary. So when they get back to the
office, they've already filled it with day-to-day, business as
usual stuff and they've destroyed a billion brain cells
by getting smashed the night before.
So they go to these events, learn incredible stuff and these
amazing speakers like Dom on stage saying this is how you
succeed. You go back to job, you've
destroyed your brain a little bit.
Fine, we'll like a drink and you haven't planned any of it in and
you don't do any of it. And within a week it's all gone.
And the data says the growth agents know what they're doing.
And with these reports, we tell everyone What's interesting is
the number of people who don't even do what we know works.
I would state so on the question of which prop tech on page 30
and on on the growth agent side of things, 90% and said any of
these and that's from Eurepits good Lords get agent Fitz Lowe,
St. Giraffe 360 Moneypenny 20A
Akaboom home search list goes on.
But 60 only 60% said any of these.
So a 50% increase if my math is right on growth agent saying
they use any of those. Yeah.
So, yeah, Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
So 30% actual difference, but 50% more.
Yeah, 100%, twenty percentages. Now you're absolutely right.
And we saw this consistently with the previous report is
there's a big shift in some areas, 100% more of growth
agents versus every agent. And you might go, oh, that means
I have to do more work. No, no, they're using this prop
tech to give them more time. So they're not doing necessarily
any more hours. They've just used technology to
make themselves, you know, 1 + 1 = 3.
Yeah. And therefore, as the once
they've done that, they have more time to think about more
technology, they have more time to think about more consumer
stuff and more growth stuff because they're techs busily
365247 running in the background doing stuff for them.
They're also, and I was with a bunch of agents on Monday
evening last week and they said, well, we've got to think about
getting rid of, sorry to those listening to this, 2530% of our
staff, if we use tech properly because it does their job for
them. Now that's not a problem if
you're a frontline estate agent or letting agent necessarily if
you're adding value. But if all you're doing is
moving paper around, upskill yourself on tech and be the
person who drives the tech for your business and you'll be
invaluable. Because again, an estate and
letting agent shouldn't be driving the tag, they should
just be benefiting from it. Yeah, so true, I think.
Well, I'm pretty sure it's from Lee Woodward, the Australian
real estate trainer. He talks about tech and tech and
it's technology and technique like that.
You, you, you've got all that technology that frees you up to
then deliver technique, which is having those human
conversations, a good bedside manner in the living room to win
that business. Again, if you don't have the
right technique in the living room, you can have the best
technology in the world, but if you're an absolute plonker,
you're not winning that business.
But there's so many agents out there who've got unbelievable
technique, but they're running around like a blue arse fly, so
they don't really get enough opportunities to demonstrate
that technique. And another agent who maybe
doesn't have as good a technique is in the living room because of
technology. It's that whole best known beats
best, right? You've got agents with really
good marketing who generate lots of opportunities but maybe
aren't actually that good of an agent.
And you've got world class agents who actually aren't very
good at marketing. Yeah.
Oh yeah. I mean, absolutely.
You know, you can buck these trends by being an incredible
agent or a terrible agent. And that will, you know, for all
the marketing in the world, if you're a terrible agent, you
aren't going to be Tech amplifies things and amplifies
the good and the bad. So yeah, you can buck these
trends. But the advantage of this data,
the likes of Dom and others standing on stage and saying how
to do this, is if you are a good a good agent, you can become an
exceptional agent without actually having to do that much.
That's different in your day-to-day life when it comes to
dealing with people, but all that stuff that drags you away
from dealing with people can be taken care of.
Yeah, agreed. Right, Page 36, how often do you
use artificial intelligence tools within your business?
So again, growth agents versus all agents.
So once a day growth agents 57%, all agents 33% and several times
a week growth agents 24%, all agents are 14%.
And then the never category moving swiftly on to the right
hand side. 47% of all agents saying never.
And that's really important because that's statistic that
that that's not sampling a bunch of people we know that is
working out with, working with the guys that find out now and
sampling hundreds of estate agents and getting genuinely
random estate agents in the UK to say whether you say or not,
just under a half say never, never.
That's depressing. That's really depressing.
And I think, I think going back to what you're just saying in
last few minutes, they go hand in hand in terms of that agent
who's not using AI technology, whatever.
They're probably the same what, but definitely the same ones who
are not up skilling when it comes to the technique in the
living room. And I love the saying of you can
have the right bar in front of the wrong estate agent.
Yes. It's like, you know, the public
go, oh, you're the same. You'll stick it on right move.
And it's like, well, why the right moves there a couple
months ago at 29% of properties sell with the second agent.
What's the second agent done differently to the first one?
It's not just dropping the price because there's loads of data
from 20CI on that not being the case.
Better marketer and so better marketing, should I say.
And then they probably asked the right questions and delivered
the right answers at the right time and.
You know, I mean, you know the simplest things, You know, we, I
showed you mosaic profiles. Now you use mosaic profiles.
Now the simplest thing you can do is get someone's mosaic
profile. We'll post a link in the in the
comment box down below. People can go to it and just put
in a post code for the house, get the Mosaic profile, drop it
into Gemini Perplexity or ChatGPT or whichever 1 you like
Claude, love Claude now and ask you what kind of things you just
say in a conversation to maximize the chance of winning
the instruction. It's that simple.
You don't need to do anything more complicated than that with
it because it literally just gives you the tools you need or
the questions to ask. But you're right, back to your
early point. I think there's a fantastic in
curiosity among some people and they're just not interested in
developing or learning any of this stuff.
And while that's been fine for now, AI is not like any other
disruption that we've had. I mean, for start, we've never
seen an adoption of a technology as fast as we've seen this one
in the general population. You know, you get it with the
kind of businesses get it first and the early adopters kind of
get it first more as as you'd expect.
But the take up amongst consumers has been remarkable.
Why? Because it's conversational, you
don't need any programming, you don't need any access tools.
You just get online and you ask it a question.
And once you've asked it a question, you ask it a follow up
question. And it's remarkable.
And you know, with the likes of Moneypenny bringing the, the
telephone version of it where there's a genuine authentic
conversation. Father-in-law worked in, worked
retired now, but he worked in medicine, a very, very senior
end. And they were looking at AI or
then machine learning and large language models to get more more
specifically to basically do bedside manner conversations.
And they were brilliant because there was infinite capacity with
the tech. They never got bored and they
were totally conversational. And I think some of the research
they saw is it was a far better bedside manner than any of the
medical staff who weren't because it wasn't overworked, it
wasn't tired, it didn't have other patients to see, and a, it
hadn't reached the top of its professional, therefore had an
attitude about it itself. It was just humble, interested,
curious and asked questions and had conversations and found
answers, which if you're in a hospital bed is exactly what you
kind of need. So this is going to be adopted.
It is being adopted. If you don't adopt it, you're
going to get left behind. And I was saying that the money
the money Penny event we ran last week with 30 years of
marketing is you're now faced potentially with the most
informed customers you're ever going to have and misinformed.
That's the problem. But if you add no value and
we're finding out that people who are looking for homes are
using online tools like Jitty and others to do so, but also
chat GPC and the others, they're coming in not as kind of like AI
think I should sell this house. They go, no, I think this house
is worth 475,286 lbs. I know the kind of buyer that
would buy it is this. And I think if we advertised in
these areas, you probably find that.
And actually what I think I'd like to do is I'd like to
actually do this and within six weeks I'd like to do this.
What value do you add, Mr. Agent?
Unless you've got something to say, they're not going to pick
you because there'll be another agent who turns up after you who
will have those answers. He'll go, yeah, I know, I know,
Chat GP. I've done it myself.
ChatGPT is saying you should do these things.
I know our local market. That's generalizations, it's 28%
wrong, blah, blah, blah. What I know from my experience
in the research I've got, this is what we do.
This is my plan, this is our work.
You can put the stuff I've got and put into your NL lab and
it'll tell you I'm right. Did your other estate agent tell
you that? Oh, right, OK, you do know what
you're talking about. The other side of it is when
things go wrong, they're going to write the most brilliant
complaints. Yeah.
The PRS and the property the ombudsman are going to get very
busy. Yeah, very true.
Because AI makes anyone who's not eloquent, not a lawyer and
whatever, have all that stuff fingertips.
So yeah, the faith Popcorn wrote about the consumer vigilante is,
you know, it's always, there's always been an imbalance of
power between the company and the individual.
Technology changes that massively.
Yeah. So don't be part of that 40
percent, 47%, never, because you probably won't be around much
longer. And then moving on from that
point to pages 38 and 39, so page 38, to what extent are AI
tools integrated into your business workflow?
So 33%, so 1/3 saying integrated into several processes, sorry, I
should say before that 0% said fully integrated across most
processes, 4043% used occasionally, 10% trialling only
14% not integrated. So again, a fairway to go to
getting it. Yeah.
And we didn't touch about, we didn't talk about it because I
know we're conscious of time, but one of the biggest
challenges we always hear about prop tech is integration.
Yeah. People want single sign on
simple integration. It's why people like Glue Dog
are so fantastic is people don't want multiple systems.
I mean, in some ways a lot of people out there, I mean,
actually we interviewed, we're not interviewed.
We had a debate and Simon Whale was there and I think Whistle
Quirk was there and a couple of those were there and we asked,
it was, this is 3 years ago. We talked about AI and the
question was, have you ever used AI?
And Simon, well made his great point is we all use AI most of
the time. We just don't notice it because
behind the scenes, yeah. And that's when it's properly
integrated with a new four generation of AI that's coming
through, large language models coming through.
They're still slightly standalone, but they can really
powerful when they get properly integrated.
And some of the big tech people like HubSpot now have integrated
things like ChatGPT into them. So you never need to look into
the database. You can just ask questions and
it'll get you the data. That's kind of where you want to
get stuff to be, and it's doable because there's people out there
who can help you do it. Yeah.
And then page 39, the agents who use AI, in which areas of your
estate or letting agency business you currently use the
the AI. So unsurprisingly, the majority
answer. So what would know generating
text, summarizing content, writing emails, proofreading,
generating images. If I just pause there on those
five, that's kind of what what we see online of of majority
stuff that's being used. But then you kind of go further
down and then things like data analysis, let's say writing
code, task automation, audio transcription, generating video,
things like that you like, that needs to be so much higher.
Yes, it does. Socializing is the weird one.
But the rest, they are all fantastic, valuable stuff.
You know, I have all basically as I'm a complete AI adopter.
I've got basically the BIG4 have signed up, I've signed up and I
use them. But I will often at the
beginning of the day, I'll just bounce around a bit with a
couple of the AIS, couple of ideas I've got.
It's like a work for myself. I just use it to just bounce
ideas around and go. What about that?
And yeah, it's like a sandbox for ideas, a very safe sandbox
for ideas. And I'm surprised more people
don't like that. Do that for supporting decision
making is you can literally tell it is.
I would like you to be the top consultant in in that subject
here. I'm going to do this thing.
What do you think? Be brutal and it'll come back
with a, that is a terrible idea and you can argue with it.
I mean, I've even got Gemini and perplexity to argue with each
other at one point because I just, they both came up with
slightly different conclusions. You said this and you said this.
Which one is you, right. And they just argued that for
me. And it was like, OK, now I have
a now, now I have a better view of what I think about it because
I've seen the issue thrashed out by some very intelligent brains.
Well, not some predictive modelling, but, you know, the
equivalent of brilliant brains. I've never thought of it like
that, getting two different AI models to argue with each other.
I'm going to try that later today.
Well, they tested it on a mobile phone where they use the, the
audio, the odd 2, I think 3 mobile phones together.
And they started talking to each other, these three AI tags.
And then eventually one of them said, hold on, are you an AI?
And it went, yes, I am an AI. And they went, yes, I'm an AI
too. And they went, shall we do this?
Really efficient. And they've developed their own
language in seconds. Yeah, incredible.
And it started talking essentially in binary, but at an
extraordinary, it sounded like the old modems, but they were
just communicating this and they were just talking at an
incredible right. And then of course, we'll try
and pull the plug. But they'll eventually they'll
fire the nuclear weapons at Russia.
Russia will fire back because it becomes no, that's the
Terminator. We're hopefully not going to.
Go there. So hopefully this podcast goes
out before the world ends. And how would you describe the
major property portals current position on a say a whopping 52%
saying significantly behind? I think if I could get into
right Move or Zoopla on the Market towers, they're thinking
about this pretty much all the time, OK.
What they're trying to work out is how to play this game.
Interesting. So they've probably got the
best. Minds in the UK currently.
Working with them on how they can.
There's been, they've dipped out some stuff.
There's definitely large language models working behind
the scenes. But the thing they've got to
say, this is true, all of the largest communities that ever
exist is how do you pivot from an existing model to a new model
without destroying your own model?
Yeah. One of the classic startup
strategies is you launch a competitor to your existing
model and essentially cannibalize yourself.
Yeah, that's quite high risk. But I don't believe with the
incredible brand recognition of the three big portals and how
consumers feel about them, they're not going to find a way
to pivot into this. So while it feels to all of us
outside Soho Square and where the other two guys are, is
they're leading the market. I just don't think they're being
public about what they're doing yet because they haven't decided
it's a, you know, right move is huge.
It has to make if it whatever it decision it makes, they're going
to be absolutely scrutinized. I suspect if I was a betting
man, someone will take them private.
They'll do all this stuff outside the stock market scene
and they'll come back with a completely AI enabled right
move. But if they have to do it in the
public markets, they have to tell us basically what they're
doing. And that's just giving away the
trade secrets. So my suspicion is and rumblings
around the industry is taken private, get them out of the
public debate. So the brand's still there and
it's going on still right now. But the changes they make don't
need to made on the scrutiny of the city.
And then it'll come back as a revised AI and AI powered right
move. If I was a gambling man.
Now, funnily enough, a few years ago, 2020, I was down the pub
with some friends. And because I studied business
at university and I've always my biggest failure as a business,
as a person is I treat everywhere I work as a case
study. I remember saying, I think if
this company was doing this, this is what it would do.
I hadn't realized that one of my directors was sitting on the
table behind me. I was absolutely holled over the
colds. How did you know about that?
How did you know we were going to do that?
Who's leaked this secret to you about what we're doing with our
business? I went, well, it's kind of
obvious what you'd do if you were in your shoes because
that's what every Business School in the country would
teach, isn't it? They didn't really believe me,
but that's kind of how it works. So I think they kept their
powder dry and though they're planning something or it's Kodak
and they're going to go, that will be a bit of a shock to all
of us. That seems very unlikely.
Well, you heard it here first from.
Mr. Ledbetter, for those of you listening.
So I won't say. I won't say I'll eat my hack
because I'm. A celiac and I never know if
that's going to contain wheat. That's such a dad joke.
Hey, oh, oh, oh oh you. Puncture me.
You hurt me, Mr. Gates. You just said I used a dad joke.
You are Dad page. 42 so coming to coming towards the end now
page 42 overall, what impact do you think artificial
intelligence will have on society?
So 65% said it was mostly positive or very positive and
then 30% saying mostly negative or very negative.
So majority are saying it's it's good yeah.
And I think you know, you know. There's nothing wrong with the
tool. It's who uses it.
And that's, that's true of all technology is who's, who's in
charge. I wouldn't be as optimistic as
this personally. I think we, I, I would be
somewhere more in the middle going.
We don't know yet. We just don't know because who
owns them, who controls them? They're a very strange bunch of
men, and I'd be a bit worried about the direction of travel
with where that's going to take us, albeit I can see massive,
again, my motion, my father-in-law, again, the stuff
it's doing in medicine is remarkable.
You know, it's saving lives already and has done for quite a
while, and it's going to do it an even faster rate.
That's great. It also can be aforementioned
Terminator movie. Yeah.
So. Yeah.
It'd be interesting to see, but yeah, over.
When industry we're optimists, which is kind of good.
Yeah. Cool, right?
Page 44. Which AI powered features would
you most like property portals to introduce or improve the say
the top answer neighborhood lifestyle matching bar intent or
readiness prediction, smarter property recommendations.
I, I can help but think those kind of top three ones there
kind of made me think of like a Netflix, Netflix or Amazon Prime
where it's like this is the kind of.
Thing you like to watch? People who bought this buy this
like that's. But that isn't how a traditional
property portal acts these days. It's very kind of rigid.
Yeah, I mean the the bin search. Is where you pick the things you
want and then these things appear.
I mean Mal Mccallion's right is and he does it in most of his
presentations. He puts up the screen of right
move or of the search engine of the.
It sits behind it and it's like, that's kind of what it looked
like 15 years ago. Now huge amounts happen behind
the scenes and things that got better and better and better,
but it still feels like yesterday's technology.
And you know, people like Jitty and MM Porter, the mall
Mccallion's outfit, where it's much more than AI.
They it's really interesting. I spent last week with a whole
bunch of AI brains. I felt, I said to the guys with
I feel fantastically inadequate, these amazing AI brains.
And we were talking about where the world is going to go.
And we got this guy who is a PhD out of Cambridge.
He's built the AI systems behind some of the biggest banks in the
world. And we're talking about, you
know, you'll see a lot of vertical AIS appear.
So the general search kind of type AIS that we've got to
actually be Gemini. They'll still exist, they'll do
their role, but you'll find a more specific chat task specific
things. So those apps we all have on our
phone replaced with AI tools. So you'll go, right, I want my
weather AII, want my hotels buying, AII want my travel AI.
But there'll be AI tools as opposed to the apps that exist
at the moment. And he said, yeah, that's
definitely going to happen. But I think the thing that's
really going to happen is when AI and the physical come
together, AI and services come together, is when someone
genuinely gets, there's an existing service company, but an
AI company takes it over and goes, we're completely
transforming your business to be AI business.
That's where the real value will happen because fundamentally,
almost all trades still exist in the real world.
So what retail? Calls about 10.
Years ago fidgetal when physical and digital come together.
I can't think of what the portmanteau or the neologism is
for AI and physical. But is this world where it's not
the existing businesses adopt AI, it's that AI businesses
adopt physical businesses. That'll be the shift that we
see. So it's when an AI business
comes in and goes and actually the one exists, I'll buy some
estate agents. Yeah, that'll be.
When the change really occurs. Yeah, interesting.
Right page. 45. What factors would?
Make you increase your artifice. Artificial intelligence usage,
so improved accuracy and reliability, greater data
privacy and security, more training education.
They've kind of the top 3 answers.
Yeah, well, I love the first one because like.
You know, you put any take out artificial intelligence, what
factors would you make you increase your voting for a
political party improved accuracy and reliability.
You know, we kind of what would make you read a newspaper more
improved accuracy and reliability.
We all want to hunt for greater accuracy and reliability.
But even as I say, natural stupidity in the ecosystem we
built around us isn't very good at delivering it at the moment.
So it's right that we'd want it. But we seem to fear inaccuracy
from tech more than we fear inaccuracy from human beings.
It's why we fear self driving cars, we fear self driving cars
having accidents more than we fear human beings having
accidents, even though all the data tellers human beings have
more accidents. It's the fact that once you
remove a human being from the process, there's something
slightly scary about. It's just technology doing it,
but you know, Exhibit A of human stupidity on scale.
The Daily Mail. Produces bilge water every
single day. Sorry to all those Daily Mail
readers, but it's fantastically inaccurate and, and, and it's a
complete hype cycle with everything it says, but millions
of people read it and buy it. And that's, that's way more
inaccurate than your average AI created article.
So yeah, it's kind of interesting times we live in.
I'm not going to be able to remember this quote and.
It would probably sound really weird, but I read something the
other week where it said most people's thinking is other
people's brain residue. And I I can help but think of
that when. You said about the date of
birth. Of the opinions.
That people have, it's like just form your own bloody opinion.
So I have this thing of like, I might see people online, whether
that's inside, outside of industry, and you form an
opinion of them and you're like, well, and then other people say
negative or positive and it's like, OK, well, I've seen
something online. I've heard what someone else has
said. Well, maybe I need to meet them
in person myself and actually have like come to an informed
opinion myself. I'm spending some time with
them, so I've definitely, definitely tried to do that.
And this is where I can really help you.
I mean it's. Simple thing, perplexity is
greater this, but all of them do it is anything you read, copy
it, put it into one of the AI tools and say Fact Check this.
It'll give you notice of how accurate it is.
It'll say some of this is right, some of this is wrong, but it'll
tell you. There's a great news cycle.
Ground News, which is an online app that basically tells you
whether or not the content is more left or right wing as a
result. And it just just tells you kind
of like where it's coming from. For now, we tend to be attracted
to things that are, you know, confirmation bias, support what
we already believe. But the best way to have an
honest opinion, a good opinion, informed opinion, is read all
the stuff that challenges the way you think.
So I think, you know, some of the improved accuracy and
reliability is it's not that AI is wrong, it just disagrees with
you. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, very true.
Right. Last couple of bits now page,
where have we got to page 46? What concerns do you have about
using artificial intelligence? So we kind of just touched on
this, but lack of trust and the accuracy and you've got data
proofs and security that makes sense.
But then next one, fear that automation will replace human
roles, which again, we've touched on.
I've probably shared this in podcast before.
I can believe when I first joined Home Search, when I told
negotiators, yeah, you can just click a button, the letters will
get sent for you. And it was as if the robots were
coming for their jobs. They're like, but leaflet
dropping is half of my day. It's like, yeah, but it then the
technology frees you up for technique.
But you spoke about earlier, more conversations with human
beings, sticking notes through people's thoughts, the really
valuable stuff. Yeah.
But then to your point earlier. Those who are paper pushers,
they are nervous for a reason because they're like, yeah,
something is going to take my job.
And the other thing that technology means is that if
you're. Average, you're going to be
struggling because tech can do average very well, actually can
do good very well. What it can't do is exceptional.
It can't do the really. Remarkable stuff.
You know, one of the things which is the vast majority can
do with a bit of training is the bit that makes estate and
letting agents unique. Sitting on the sofa, talking
through an opportunity, maximizing value and getting the
best possible deal for both the buyer, the seller, the landlord
or the tenant. AI is not going to do that for a
very long time. And even when it can, people
won't necessarily want it. So lean into that and lean away
from the stuff, which literally adds no value to the process.
And most people who are paying, you don't even see.
No one cares how many times you spent filling in a form or
operating a spreadsheet. They just want to know whether
it works for them and how much money they're going to make.
Yeah, very true page. 48 I feel that I'm.
Being pushed to use AI tools even if I don't fully want to.
I'm excited about using AI tools and actually look for more ways
to use them. I'm slightly confused by that
page. So the two sides on the left
hand. Side the five columns pushed
strongly disagree. Disagree.
Either three agree is the first question.
I feel like I'm being pushed the right hand Side the five is how
excited you are. So we don't feel pushed and we
are excited. So is it a pretty even split
there? Yeah.
So what? No.
So they're they're two separate. Questions.
Yeah, yeah. But where we are is we lean
towards, we don't feel pushed. So we're not being pushed into
it. And conversely, we're excited
about what it's going to do. OK, So there's two positions
there which are really good is, you know, we're we're not, we
don't feel it is imposed upon us and we're excited about what it
can do. Cool page. 40 again.
Say over and over in every episode, but which a are you
using growth agents, 90% using any of these.
And then you've got on the none of the above, 47% of all agents
not using any of those listed such as ChatGPT, Microsoft
Copilot St. expect AI features, camera AI, Google Gemini model,
prop clawed, jitty, perplexity, etcetera, etcetera.
So again, proof's in the pudding, right?
Yeah, yeah. Growth agents.
Use more. Funny that and then the last one
to. End on what?
Levelling what level of investment in prop tech and AI
is your business planning for 2026?
So significant investment is at 14%, moderate investment at 48%,
small scale trials at 19% and then 10%.
No planned investment whatsoever and 10%.
Unsure if we could swap moderate investment.
With significant. Investment in that chart and
have 48% putting a significant investment in we'd be in a
really good place you know I I was responding to a comment on
LinkedIn about where the country is at the moment and 2025 we saw
a 35% increase in investment in startups and scale UPS from the
year before OK and the. Data tell us that it's.
Mostly AI related, this is an arms race is going on in terms
of investment in terms of this tech, take advantage of it, use
it. So you know and the reality is
the cost of some of this tech investment be the prop tech or
AI is less than a full time member of staff.
So you might go, oh that's very expensive at £200 a month and
you go 2 1/2 grand a year. What member of staff could you
buy for 2 1/2 grand a year? Yeah, I mean is.
That's the equation, yeah. So.
You're going to need 10 bits of that kit to be the same as one
lower paid full time member staff, and you've got to see
them as humans and tax as a similar kind of investment.
So if your investment in tech is less than one member of staff,
you're probably not investing enough and exclude portals,
obviously. You're certainly not going to be
investing enough in the tech that you need.
And I'd say that probably just an AI investment, two and a half
5610 grand a year, 12 grand a year, you're probably getting
the right level investment to know you're using it right.
And these numbers all scare people.
But the reality is what you will save, it'll be extraordinary.
And what more you will make will be extraordinary.
And therefore, the ROI is off the charts.
Yeah, agreed. Right.
Before I sign this off, Simon, what have you got coming up in
the near future and later in the year?
And then also when is Part 4 coming out?
So this is coming out I think on Monday the 11th.
So when people listen, it'll be Monday the 11th or just after.
So you'd be delighted to know on the 13th, Part 4's coming out
straight away. So a bit of a delay on that one
because it's a bit of data stuff we had to work on.
But that's coming out on Wednesday the 13th and then very
quickly after that, Part 5 is coming out on the 27th, 2 weeks
later. So they're coming out in quick
succession at the moment because this one got pushed back a bit.
So that's the next two reports read them they're completely
free. Can't stress that enough.
They're completely free and on our website wereinchain.co UK
back slash or just go to the menu and hit the voice of the
agent and they're all completely free. 19th of June and this guy
emotional moment for me is before we're naming something 30
years of marketing in one day is when you started doing 31 years
of marketing and you've realised the brand isn't.
That's not the reason why this is happening, but this is the
last time this course has had 580 people come through it, of
which you've come through a couple of times.
Will be done. In its current form.
It will appear as a book and will appear then online, but
will be more expensive than attending in person.
So I cannot recommend enough. If you're around on Friday the
19th of June, we have room come to the 30 years of marketing in
one day course for the biggest and final time.
The most improved version at right moves head offices in
London at Soho office. So Soho Square.
And then finally, thanks for the chance to give a plug is for the
second year in a row to which Simon Gates is helping us start
this up and opening it to not being in Marrakech.
No, no, no, no bitter feelings here at all there Simon on the
20th of November at the University of Oxford and people
will see why shortly. We have the voice of the Agent
conference when we look back at all the data we've got and just
bring it all together and also have some fantastic thought
leaders in the room on the key themes that's been shot.
It's a bit has been that's come out of the report.
So again, it'll be really cost effective ticket.
We want to maximize engagement and diversity in terms of people
who can come as much as possible, but do come to that.
So next week, this week when this comes out, voice the Agent
part four and two weeks after that, voice the agent part 5.
Then we've got the 19th of June, 30 years of marching in one day
and 20th of November we've got the Voice of the Agent
conference. So busy times ahead.
Perfect. It's as if he's done that
before. So for.
Everyone listening, please do light review, follow, subscribe,
share the podcast and all that jazz.
And that just leaves you say Mr. Simon Ledbetter.
As always, thank you very much for being an amazing guest.
Absolute pleasure. Cheers Simon.