Hello and welcome to Opening the Gates to more listings for
Estate Agents with me, Simon Gates.
I'm delighted to be joined today by Fran Bowling.
Fran, thank you very much for joining me.
No problem, I'm equally delighted to have been invited,
so thank you for having me. You're.
Very welcome. It's kind of Deja vu being on a
Zoom call with you because I don't know if you'll be able to
remember or not. But very, I'd say early on in
the pandemic and my early home search days, I actually remember
being on a Zoom call with you and I think several other agents
from maybe the Fining Country network.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's how we first got
introduced to one another. It was home search.
And when we took that platform on in the pandemic day is when
there was not much else that we could do in terms of getting
out. Yeah, yeah.
I think like looking back at that, it sounds so bad because
obviously it's, you know, lots of terrible things that happened
with the pandemic. It was like the best thing that
could happen for us at Home Search as a prop tech startup
because like when we're speaking to estate agents, they couldn't
say. So I'm really busy on viewings
and valuations. We're like, we know you're not,
you can't go anywhere. So jump on this call and see
what we've got to say. It's definitely the right time
and the right place for home search then.
Yeah, but then being in the right, being the right time, the
right place, you've still got to take advantage of it, right?
Absolutely. And I think that there are
plenty of agents during that time who when the market
reopened did incredibly well, but they were doing things
before it officially reopened. I think in the May of that is
doing stuff from a community point of view, helping
charities, just supporting locally.
But then there were others who, as Tom Panos would say, were in
pyjama mode, living life of luxury.
And then when it opened up, it was kind of a blind panic of Oh
my God, what do we do now? I.
Think I was in half pajama mode whereby I was probably
professional on the top and pajama mode on the bottom.
Yeah, I could. I yeah, I get that.
I those, yeah. I mean, it's like a really hot
spring summer as well like that that 2020.
And I'm not afraid to say there might have been a few alcoholic
beverages, maybe in the afternoon, sat at the desk.
Being recorded. I don't, I don't work there
anymore. It's fine.
So in terms of you getting into the industry, if my LinkedIn
stalking is correct, it was in late 2012.
September 2012. September 2012.
How? How did that come about?
So I had just been made redundant.
I was 20 years old and I had passed sales and customer
service experience and I'd just moved out as well.
So I needed a job, Simon. So I was applying for anything
sales related, customer service related.
It wasn't that I made a beeline for the property industry, I
just needed a job. So I was applying, applying,
applying, applying and I got an opportunity for an interview at
Moss Properties as a sales negotiator and I did not have a
clue about because I was renting, I did not have a well,
I was renting from a family friend.
So it didn't even go through that process.
I kid you not, I knew nothing about renting, about buying,
about mortgages, about I couldn't get my head round about
equity as well. And so I got given an
opportunity. Not by Sunday, which is always a
running joke. It was the branch manager at the
time who interviewed me and gave me the opportunity.
So there's always that. Oh, would I have got an
opportunity if Sunday had actually interviewed me and all
I got told was right, you're going to be in charge of looking
after buyers, you're going to be doing viewings and you need to
be making a lot of calls and booking a lot of appointments
in. Well, I've worked in Tele sales
before. I've worked in customer service.
I was like great, I can do that no problem.
And I remember I sold a terraced property for £48,000 in my first
week and I thought I was bawling.
I was like, yeah, this is it, this is for me.
And then naturally over those 14 years, I grafted sleepless
nights, put the work in, can do attitude because at that age as
well, I had a lot of friends going to university.
So me being a bit competitive, I'm thinking I'm really going to
have to make myself something and like, I need a career.
I can't be job hopping. And yeah, here we are.
And for 14 years later, operations director, I've been
in every aspect of this business.
I've got a team that I'm managing.
I've got another business, Fine and Country York that I'm
directing as well. So yeah, 34 years old on Sunday
now. And I've been a tenant, I've
been a landlord, I've been a first time buyer, I've been a
seller. So personal experience and
personal growth over those 14 years has been drastic.
You've, you've seen it all there.
And I on one of the last sort of points you made, I don't know
about you, but when I bought my first house, it made me a better
estate agent. And then when I sold that house,
I became an even better estate agent because you just, you
don't get it, that emotional side of it to you until you
experience it. I think the second time for me,
I think first time buyer, it's an eye opener.
You're quite naive and you're green, so you just think this is
the norm, selling and buying whole different ball game.
And I actually thought to myself, you know, it was only
last year. So I've been doing it for 13
years and I'm thinking I get it. I understand now why sellers are
so frantic in trying to get everybody lined up.
But if everyone's not lined up, what's Plan B?
What's plan C? Like it's terrifying trying to
go to work and plan A move, sell a house and purchase the
property at the same time. And that has definitely made me
a better estate agent because I can completely relate to it.
And I'd say it's made me more proactive when initially going
out to speak to people about potentially selling their home
on what their timeline looks like, what possible hurdles
could come up and how we can be as proactive as possible and
trying to minimise them in the process.
And then even down to the negotiating, making it even more
clearer on what this seller's expectation is to that buyer as
to make sure the stars align and everything goes through
simultaneously. Yeah, I love that.
I think when it comes to people moving home, like that element
of control is removed, right. They set their alarm as to when
they're going to wake up in the morning.
They know when they're going to bed, what they're going to we,
what they're doing at work. And then it's like, oh, yeah,
hi. For this kind of 6 to 12 months
maybe. Yeah.
Your life's going to go on hold. And I'm, I'm in that process.
I'm going. I've been saying this for a
bloody long time now, but I'm going to be selling my house and
buying somewhere together with, with my girlfriend Louise.
And like we like to go away a bit, you know, like do city
breaks and we've booked us somewhere that I'm like Louise,
you know, like we are, our life is kind of going to be on hold.
Like we've just arranged A decorator to obviously decorate
the house and get it ready to go on the market or arrange
storage. As you can see, I've got all
this rubbish behind me. It was, well, not rubbish.
It's sports memory. It's actually very valuable.
But don't tell Louise I said that.
And it's like getting that already and then, yeah, your
life is on hold. Like right, we're now going to
wait by the phone to be. It's the limbo, isn't it?
Like when people say, right, we're moving, we're selling,
they're already thinking of the day that they're moving and what
they don't realise, and I always say this, you're looking at the
top of the staircase. Yeah, so.
There's 12 or 14 steps that we need to navigate first before we
get you to the top, and we might come down a few steps first to
then move forward even more. What'd you say?
If it's a bungalow? If.
It's a they must have a lot bladder then.
I, I, I'm completely stealing that staircase analogy.
That is so true. Because yeah, they're looking,
they're never excited at the start, aren't they?
Like they are really excited. They might have found a house,
their dreams. And I think too many agents are
not having the uncomfortable and difficult conversations upfront.
But I think you're talking about where you're going to explain
even in even the the best case scenario, it's still probably
going to take several months and you still have some hurdles that
you have to get over throughout it.
No, absolutely. And there's always things that
come out of the woodwork, there's always things out of
people's control. And it's Navi, how to navigate
that. And yeah, you've got to have
these tough conversations and bad conversations.
And it's so difficult for an agent not to get emotional with
the sellers and the buyers. But I like to think of my job as
I'm a solution provider. If you come to me with a
problem, I will think of a solution.
It might not be what you want to hear, but and it might not be
what you initially thought, but it's going to give you a
solution to carry on moving. Yeah, I love that.
I want to go back to something you you were saying earlier
about it wasn't Sanjay who interviewed you when you
initially joined Moss in 2012 and you've been here or bit
sorry being at Moss and and FF and C and and and risen through
the ranks and got a team with you now in this industry.
I think the stats from Josh Rayner is like the average
person essentially stays in a job for like 18 months or
something two years. What?
What is it about Moss Sanjay out like everyone there?
What is it about the culture that has meant you stayed and
grown through that? So I'm sure there'll be agents
listening to this being like, I wish I could find a friend who's
gonna rise through the rankings then.
Yeah, no, absolutely. And look, I get asked this all
the time. And look, don't get me wrong,
there's been people in my LinkedIn inbox offering me
opportunities here, there and everywhere.
But Sanjay's looked after me ultimately, but he's also
changed my life. Like I would not be the person I
am today in the position that I am with the lifestyle that I've
got without the opportunities that he's provided me.
But I also recognise that I am very loyal and my work ethic is
second to none. But I'm also aware of sort of,
you know, boundaries and, and having that work life balanced,
so to speak. But for me, I treat this
business like it's my own because Sam Jake gives me that
empowerment and trust. Now he's spent a hell of a lot
of time, hell of a lot of money investing in my growth.
And because I've always had something to work towards,
there's always been progression, there's always been
opportunities. I don't get bored.
And I think if I'd have, you know, completed every single
position in this, this business then, and I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm
the operations director. There is really nowhere else for
me to go at the moment. But the job itself of still
helping clients and still helping team members progress,
that's what's rewarding for me. And Sanjay always says you want,
unless a second in, in corporate because of just how micromanaged
it is and what you can and what you can't do, I've ultimately
got free rein. That doesn't mean to say that,
you know, I take the mic that Sanjay's trained me well enough
to know who's the right client to work with and who's the wrong
client to work with. So I'd say it's a mixture.
It's a mixture of the opportunities that Sanjay's
given me, the recognition for my work and rewards for my
performance as well, but also the continuous opportunities and
progression as well. Yeah, love that you said about
growth and you said about boredom.
That's really interesting. I don't think I'd, I don't think
I'd ever thought of it that way. I look back at my estate agency
career and when I I exited to go to home search, I look back now
as I was unfulfilled. So actually I do think there was
some, there was some boredom there of I was in a dozen branch
organization. You kind of had the MD and then
a few directors and I was like, well, they ain't going anywhere.
So I'm this, this is me now. And I looked out the window one
day and went, what would I feel like if I was here in a decade
or Two's time? Yeah.
Exactly. I've not moved anywhere and it's
an exciting opportunity. And it's interesting what you
say about that loyalty because it works both ways.
Like you're referring to. I, I look at it differently now,
but if I, when I was a manager and I was interviewing someone
for roles, if they'd changed jobs every year, that was a
massive red flag to me. I was like, oh, there's loyalty,
not a law, not lawlessly there or something's wrong with them,
whatever. But actually looking back,
they're just kind of job hopping because they would kind of
follow a bit of a higher paid job.
Like to see an advert go out. It's a little bit more, it's a
little bit more just keep job hopping.
And I, I feel like in hindsight, my loyalty got penalized.
I had people come in and I remember one time on going off
in a bit of a rant here, I saw someone's contract and they were
on a few grand more than me new into the business.
I was like, why they why they are more?
And they're like, well, that's the going rate online at the
moment, OK. If that's going right online,
it's like. Where's my recognition?
It's like the whole skylight. I don't know, a brand new
customer to Sky TV. It's probably going to get a
much better deal. Yeah, retentions department,
when you put your termination in, all of a sudden you've got,
you know, a 50% reduction on your bill.
Yeah, that's interesting you say that.
I think we sort of see that when we're interviewing as well.
Like a lot of people apply for roles here because they want to
get into property. And I'm, I'm just, you know, sat
there smiling, thinking what you think property is, is absolutely
the complete opposite. And it's being transparent on
that and how your typical day would look, what the
expectations are and what we're looking for at the end of each
day in terms of outcomes and performance.
And you also get, oh, I'm looking for career progression.
Like I got promised this in my last role and it didn't deliver.
And you know, it's interesting for me to share my story because
I joined Moss because I needed a job and I've got sales and
customer service experience. Never in a million years did I
think I'd be a manager. If you were interviewing the
Fran 14 years ago, I probably wouldn't have even agreed to
this because I was really unsure about myself, where I was going
in life. I didn't have the confidence.
I didn't have anything that was fulfilling all that passion
until I did come and sort of came out my shell over the years
at Moss properties. And, you know, your profile gets
lifted year on year doing things like this, going to events,
networking with other agents as well.
And when I tell my story to people that were interviewing
and they look at me and think, yeah, no, I want to be a friend.
And I'm like, a lot of people have told me they want to be
like a friend. But it's not all roses.
It's tough, like it's tough like there's been sleepless nights.
There's been tears, many, many tears.
There's been times I've gone home and thought, you know what,
I don't want to do this anymore. But I always brush it off, come
back and I'm like, right, it's a new day, let's go.
And I think I roll. And our job in this industry,
it's all about mindset because it is so easy to get wrapped up
in what's happening in the media, what's happening with
interest rates, what's happening with the budget, what's
happening in the world with the war.
Stay in your lane. Like focus on, I'm focusing on
Doncaster sellers than York sellers.
So that's what I can control. I can't control what's happening
elsewhere. And people will always need to
move ultimately. I think this sounds really like
blunt and transactional from me, but things going on like the
external factors you just mentioned will actually mean
people will want, need have to move.
I if, if I know people are coming out of two year, five
year fixed rates and they had a fixed rate at 2% and they're now
looking at 6% like anyone a minute, we're going to sell
here. And selfishly from estate agents
perspective, interest rates go up and down.
House prices more often go up. It's transactions Selfishly we
care about right is that we need more people to move because
that's how we earn money, set interest.
Yeah, definitely. And it's it's, yeah, it's, I
always call them selling season. So this is my 14th selling
season now. And this time of year typically
is, you know, when you see a lot more properties coming to
market, generates more buyers. This is where you start building
the momentum for the year. And then, you know, it comes to
sort of September, October, that's your last chance saloon.
And then November, December, it does slow down, but not
understanding that and knowing that there's nothing you can do
about the external factors, but continuing to show up each day
and making yourself visible as an agent in your town and or you
know where your territory. That's what you can control.
And that's what I love as well. I again videos I'm known for my
videos on social media. My live after fives.
My first video was absolutely horrendous.
It was 30 seconds long. I was walking in a state in
Doncaster saying right, I'm in this area.
If you want to know how much property is worth, give me a
call. And because I was the only agent
to have done it probably 13, maybe 12 years ago.
This the comments I got slate in my appearance.
And you know, who does she think she is?
And look at her eyebrows. And you know, I was what, 2223?
So I'm thinking, Oh my God, I'm never doing this again.
And that's where Sanjay came in and said, you're doing it more.
You need to do 3 for tomorrow. You need to do 5 for the next
week. And that's, that's again, comes
down to the personal growth of being pushed out your comfort
zone, which means, you know, that's where I want to be
because that's what's made me stay here all these years.
Yeah, that's so interesting. I was going to ask you and then
you you finish the sentence by saying how long ago it was that
you actually did that video. That's crazy, but it's happened
many years ago. Yeah, 12 years ago, 12 years
ago. And that was before we even had
Facebook adverts. That was before we were even
using hashtags. I don't even think you are a
business profile or metasweet to go on for uploading videos.
It was literally just on a Facebook profile and it's grown
from there drastically. Ads growing hugely.
And I love doing that now. I love getting on camera.
I love showing it, you know, the beautiful new listing that I've
got. I love educating people and it's
it pays off because, as I say, it lifts my profile.
We hosted a landlord event a few weeks ago for the Renter's
Rights Act. The changes that are coming into
effect now, I've been in lettings.
I understand lettings. I get lettings.
That's I don't dislike lettings. I prefer sales, shall we say.
So this was really Shanice and Sanjay's baby.
Obviously, I was there as well to support and host.
And the amount of people that came up to me and said, Brian,
seeing you on your videos where, you know, it's you that's drawn
us in. And I'm thinking, wow, OK, yeah,
it's still happening now, 12 years ago.
People are still recognizing me because of my videos.
Yeah, it's some. So a couple of things on what
you'd said that I, I speak to quite a few people, I'd say in
the prop tech world who are looking to penetrate the estate
agency market and they're like, what's like, what's some of the
secret behind the relative amount of success you've had
Simon? And I'm like personal brand,
It's an overused phrase, but you've got to get yourself out
there. Like you might have a company
called, let's say, opening the gates, but it's it's Simon that
that they're knowing and building relationship with.
And everyone will go, oh, I don't know.
So I'm not really coming from camera.
And I, and I think back to a video, I think in my first week
of home search, first couple of weeks actually, because we like
gone into lockdown and the head of, I don't know what his title
was, head of content, this guy called Tiger, who's one of the
coolest people I've ever met in my life.
He now does red carpet interviews.
He's on TikTok, Instagram, whatever.
He started doing that in the first lockdown and he saw an
opportunity there. But anyway, the first video I
did so like rigid, it was, it was terrible.
And I say to people, I'm like, you'll hate it at first, but
you'll get to a point when you'll be like, right, I can't
wait to record my next video. They're like, that will never
happen. I'm like, trust me, it does.
You get to a point where you've built that habit.
Someone notices you, spots you, says, says something positive.
And I think when I, I'm trying to think when we met in person
for the first time, would have been at Sanjay's mastermind at
the end of Yeah. Was that the first time again?
I would have seen you multiple times online.
So it's like like, hey, Fran, how are you doing?
It's not like a you're already. Familiar.
Yeah, hi, I'm Sam. Nice to meet you.
Same with Sanjay. Like the amount of times I've
seen his mug on, on on video on on my phone, like first time I
met him, it's like, hey Sanjay, how are you doing?
Yeah, no, it's so, so powerful. And we always say because that's
another thing that I have a battle with my team as well.
Like, yeah, I'm the face of the business, but I wasn't, you
know, most properties was going 6-7 years before I even joined.
Like there's nothing special about me.
I'm just doing it. So if you want to be a visible
agent and progress like you're going to have to do this as
well, or if you want to be a secret agent and not be
proactive, then when you weigh it up, it doesn't match with
what you've told us you want to do joining this team.
Yeah, and that that phrase just used their secret agent.
There's far too many secret agents out there.
And you maybe think of the same best known beats best like the
amount of conversation have of agents from they're like, how
does that agent keep getting business?
They're not any good. They overvalue, they charge
cheap fees. They don't sell half of
properties. They live like.
Well, if you look at their social media feed, they just
keep turning up. And the last time you posted was
three months ago. Yeah, Who would if you weren't
in, If you weren't in your estate agency, who would you
choose? And they're like, yeah.
And it's it's that it's the constant reminder as well.
Like I would much prefer Monday I did 12 videos for my marketing
team. Yesterday I did another 5
because I thought just get them done.
We can get them scheduled for the rest of the month.
Now. I would much prefer doing that
then sit thinking, right, what can we post on social media this
month? What does our audience need to
know instead of, you know, drafting captions and looking at
sort of doing animated videos, I would much prefer just to spend
an hour, an hour and a half just reeling off different short
fired videos. And then that's it.
You're done for the you're done for the next two weeks.
Yeah, so true. I think that the whether it is
in prospecting activities, recording videos, catching up
with clients, like it's all about time blocking and on the
video side, things I get plenty of agents said to you, well,
I've what do I talk about? And I'm like if you just wrote
down every time someone asked you a question.
Talk about your day, yeah? You'd have so much content.
Like who? Would you help today when
questions came up, you know, what were they surprised about?
What did you help somebody on? Like, it doesn't have to be sort
of what you think. I think when you think, that's
when it becomes rigid. When you speak naturally about
something that's happened, well, there's no script to be had
because you've got the script in your head.
Yeah. And it and when you've been
doing it long enough and you're an expert in your field, like I
actually prefer it when I don't know what's going to be said.
Terrible reading scripts. I can't do it.
I just have to. I just have to run with it.
But yeah, if you're a sub, if you're a subject expert and
someone says to you, talk to me about what's going on the
property market in Doncaster right now.
Bank, right? Yeah, let's go.
I'll tell you about it. Something I want to go back to
you. You said about the landlord
event that was put on, I mean we're recording us towards the
end of April, so the time by the time it goes out it 1st of May
would have come and gone. So the It's a shame's
conversation is not further back in time.
But I can't believe I haven't seen more companies online doing
landlord events, whether that's in person or online.
It's such a golden opportunity coming up.
So we, we were the first agent in Doncaster to to do it.
We did it at the end of March, 3-4 weeks ago now and then
couple weeks later we saw a few others doing it.
But we've actually got a follow on tonight as well.
That is is a webinar because we've got landlords all over
that aren't necessarily local. We've obviously got buyers that
we work with, investors as well that are looking to come into
the market or not sure what they're doing.
So we thought right, we really need to do a Part 2 of this, but
as a webinar because we had people asking us that when we
did the first in person one. I mean, anybody who's doing it
in the last sort of week or two was the first one.
I think you might be just that little bit too late, but it was
great how we hosted. It was 6 till 7:30.
We had it in our office. We're very lucky that we've got
a purpose built office with a huge boardroom that we could
host. And we kept it very informal.
Like, you'll know, with the Renters Rights Act, you could be
speaking about that for hours. Yeah, but we made people aware
of what the biggest changes are, what they need to be doing.
We had Good Lord as well who came in to speak about sort of
their changes and what they're seeing in the market.
And then we had Anita Moss mortgages.
So she was speaking about, you know, reviewing rent, reviewing
your portfolio, maximising your portfolio.
And then I spoke about what's happening in the Doncaster
property market. So we only really spoke for
about 50 minutes and then after that it was just networking and
the fact that it was so informal and not conference like, shall
we say. We got really good feedback from
so much. So I'm doing a first time buyers
event actually in May. I mean, there's, there's so many
events off the backup like you said, first time buyers for for
me, I think there's such an untapped opportunity in the
market. First time buyers make up 30 to
40% of of all buyers are the biggest buyer group out there
and we're going to be stereotypical.
Sellers as well. Absolutely.
And they're they're probably going to be a millennial,
they're probably going to be early, early, mid 30s.
They're going to deal with things slightly differently to
maybe someone who's going into rented in their early 20s or
someone who's looking to sell in their 60s.
But for me, I think the next step on what you've just said is
what property typically would a first time buyer buy?
I would say probably a first time seller's property.
So there should be an event for first time sellers, right?
You, you said it earlier in the conversation where you bought
your first home. So that's, that's more of an
understanding, but then you get an even bigger understanding
when you then sell that home and the emotion would go through
that. So yeah, an in person event
webinar for first time sellers. I I think is such such an
opportunity out there. Now I agree completely.
Our jobs ultimately educating people, and the more stories and
education that you provide, the more business you're going to
get. On So what you just said there
about story and education. I was at a conference last week
and Phil M Jones was speaking, who is unbelievable.
And he said when you're a kid and your parents are going to
tell you a story, how how do you know they're about to tell you a
story? Because they say, Once Upon a
time. Yeah, yeah.
And he's like, but you can't say it as an adult because that'd be
a little bit weird. But his language is just imagine
and then you go on to say it and it's like, yeah, that's that's
so true. And then again, when you think
of a stereotypical estate agent, we think pushy salesperson,
Wheeler dealer. But then when you think for
professional estate agent or they're advising, they're
educating, they're informing and everything you've just been
saying around the video content, social media, at landlord
events, webinars, etcetera. Definitely, definitely.
No. It's like I say, we had so much
success with the previous one. The next one will be the first
time buyer. So yeah, I think the first time
sellers will be good coming up to be the next one too.
Nice. And in terms of the proof very
much being in the pudding, I would have had this conversation
with Sanjay when I'm had when I had him on the on the podcast
about reviews, because when I checked earlier, 1620 reviews,
average rating of 4.8. Yes, very proud of that.
It took 7-8 years, I'd say for us to build that up and it's
instrumental in terms of how it's affecting the business now,
because we're appearing in more searches when people are looking
for Doncaster estate agents and we're using that on Mark Tim as
well. And it's the social proof that
OK, look here you go, we've got we've got over 1600 and five
star Google reviews. So we do say what we're going to
do. You know, we're not like other
agents whereby we'll over promise and under deliver his
past sellers, landlords and buyers.
And that's a very well, it's a daily KPI that we have in this
office. It's on the whiteboard, right?
How many reviews are we getting today?
Who are we getting them from? Who needs following up on and
who's going to follow up? I was going to ask what's what's
1 tip you can give on getting more reviews?
But I think you've just given it there in terms of being front of
mind on the whiteboard and then having that conversation around
who are we getting reviews from following up and then who is
actually doing it as well. I think a lot of not necessarily
agents, anybody asking for a review thinks it's got to be a
transactional review. It's not.
You're asking for a five star review on your service.
If you've helped somebody with their Property Search or if
you've helped somebody by giving advice on the best areas to
invest or you've referred somebody to a mortgage advisor
who's actually saved them money compared to what the deal that
they had. That is still a service that
you've given and I think understanding and making that
penny drop that. Yeah.
All right. Actually, I can ask for more
reviews that I've got because initially it was, Oh well, you
know, I've got 5 viewings today, but it's all on the same
property. So only one property, only one
person can apply for that. So I've only got 1 opportunity.
And it's like, well, no, you haven't.
You know anybody who's saying thank you, that is your green
light to ask for review. 100% And I think actually on that
social proof point of view, if I clicked on some reviews, if
there's someone who's bought or sold a house and they say Fran
did an amazing job, I'm like, who has a great review?
But if it's we didn't end up buying with Fran, but my God,
she was so helpful. I'm like, wow, they didn't even
transact with this person. They're still reviewing them.
I think that's even more powerful.
Yeah, to take the time out and still leave a review.
They must be impressed with what service they've got.
Yeah, 100%. So I want to go back to what you
said earlier around growth because I know it's it's massive
within the business and for you and Sanjay.
And obviously he's had Moss mentors and the masterminds over
the years, etcetera. Tom Panos is an obvious name
that comes to mind like the GOAT of real estate.
But the question I want to ask you, is there anyone under the
radar you've seen speak or over the years who's like offered
gold, who doesn't maybe get the accolades?
They, they, they. In the industry or?
In or out? I think I can't.
This is going to sound really bad, but I can't remember their
particular name now, but it was, it was an Olympic athlete that
was, I think it was a Guild conference.
And again, sharing her story so that you could write.
And it really did resonate with me.
Not that I'm an Olympic athlete, but you know, it was thought of
her growing up and the setbacks that she had and how she
overcome them. And it came back down to
marginal gains. So when I was at the very early
days of my progression, obviously training was crucial
for me. And these, you know, 1% marginal
gains, it's so simple. But that absolutely blew me
away. And it must have been somebody
was training the Olympic team actually, and how they came back
four years later and how they implemented these changes
gradually. And when they, they went really
granular on each one. So it was about, you know,
nutrition, then it was about tracking sleep.
Then it was about tracking their VO2 Max or the times that they
should be training versus the times that they shouldn't be
training. Like it was so, so granular.
And that resonated with me because I'm a very granular
person. So, you know, data systems,
statistics, I want to understand when the best time for my team
is to call because they're going to get most people that are
connecting. So that then right during this
time you can do a bit of an admin or you can do a bit of
training. So that really stuck with me
because I thought I can implement that in my role.
And I think at the time as well, I just started building a team.
So I've had no experience being a manager or building a team.
So getting somebody, obviously I've got Sanjay mentors me all
day every day. But having someone else that was
sort of, I think she was a similar age to me and it just
did really resonate in the fact that that is so simple and it
makes so much sense. And look at the growth that
they've had. So I think I came back and I was
looking at our stats and our data and our times.
And that's when I got more critical on, right, what call
list are we calling at this time?
And I think I ended up changing people's shifts as well.
I was like, right, you're working 12 till 8:00 today.
We're going to do a call session 6 till 8.
And that had an instrumental effect on outcomes and the
business. And it was actually 2018 because
2019 was the year everything just dropped into place for me.
And we had the best year today since since I started in 2012.
So I'm sorry, I can't remember the name, but it was somebody
who was an Olympic athlete or a trainer that was telling us how
they went from not placing on that medal stand, but and then
four years later they ended up getting the gold.
OK, for anyone listening who was perhaps at that Guild conference
four years ago and knows who Fran is referring.
I'll give I'll give Ian Mackenzie a call.
Can you get the agenda up? I.
Think I'm seeing, I think I'm seeing in a couple of days.
So I'll have to ask him in terms of marginal gains, you're you're
massively preaching to the converted here like I in my
office again, how sad I am when it comes to data.
I mean, you see me speak. I I love stats you.
Love Stats. I love stats.
I measured my conversion rate and the fee that I was getting
based on who booked the valuation.
Interesting. OK.
So it's that free qualification? Yeah.
So, you know, just very kind of standard, but particular.
So a lady who used to work with me called Sharon.
Her notes were unbelievable. Like it'd be Simon and Louise.
It's Simon's house, but they're looking to upsize together, not
quite sure where they're going. They got two dogs, blah, blah
blah, blah. Some used to be in the stage or
whatever, right? So I'm going into that, reading
those notes, going amazing. Look, got everything I need.
And then there's someone else where it's like, yeah, it's a 3
bed property and you go there on Saturday and you're like, right,
OK. Don't don't what you're going
into, do you or or have? To pitch, yeah, exactly.
So you, you, you know what kind of a point you're going into.
And again with the marginal gains, 38% of the properties I
sold in my last full year as an agent, which was 2019, failed to
sell with other agents. They, they paid me a higher fee
than what my average fee was. They I was monitoring it for a
few years but I was like well that is making me realise not
all business is good business. If the owner doesn't align with
you, let them go. Experience bad estate agency,
Get it second time round. But when you're sat in a board
meeting, you've got an MD opposite you.
Go and convert. Kind of justify your existence,
yeah. Justify your existence.
Yeah, you like that? Don't worry, we'll keep going on
this. And then the same thing as well,
where? And this contradicts something I
said earlier, but about 25% of my business in 29 had rented,
bought or sold through me previously.
Yeah, it's a big number. And they paid more than what my
average fee was. Yeah.
So when I'm in their living room, it's like, Frank, you
you've bought from me before. You know, we deliver a great
service. Like this is a fee.
And I go, yeah, that's fine. We're not.
We're not questioning the fee. Exactly.
Yeah, I'm in that situation now whereby I'm on sort of the
second time round whereby they bought it from, they've sold it
from, they've sold it with me now on to the second property
that they're selling as well. But just back to what you were
saying about the valuations being booked in by a certain
person. You reminded me back in
lockdown. So we all know when we came out
of lockdown, everything went crazy.
Anyone could have done our job really, because we were just
taking off as they're all above asking price.
You're just saying to the seller, which one do you want?
But it got to the point where I couldn't fulfil as many
valuations as what was being requested.
So, and we still, we still ask this now because it's very
crucial in understanding who to prioritise as a client, I will
say, or whoever's booking the valuation right when Frank comes
and sees you on Friday, if you're happy with everything
that she discusses. Are you ready for pictures?
And if they go, oh, no, no, I need another month.
Yeah. Or, you know, we're not quite
there or we're not really sure if we're going to go to market.
There you go. I think I'm that is such a
simple, yet so so powerful question.
You said earlier about simple things.
Usually the the best things are simple and I've.
Exactly. Yeah, We're trying to
overcomplicate our job sometimes, you know, you say,
right, what, you know, what time scales are you looking at?
You know, where do you want to move to?
And it's a conversation, but you don't actually get the answers
that you need. Whereas if you ask that, they're
thinking, oh, my word, no way am I going to be ready for pictures
on Friday. So you you've got your answer.
Yeah, I love that. I think as a saying, when all is
said and done, more is said than done.
You. Can like and I think Tom Panos
uses the phrase why use 100 words when 10 will do Let's get
straight to the point stop faffing.
And what I've, what I've found I think in a few times I've, I've
met Sanjay in more recent times is he'll sit there silently in
the corner is my view, obviously know him inside out and I'm
like. He's not spoken in ages and all
of a sudden he just comes out of nowhere.
Bang, like straight to the point.
I'm like, yeah, you don't need to say a lot to have an impact.
But when you when you do say something, it's a platform.
Sanjay thinks very different to a lot of people, me included,
and when he says something you, you get frustrated and think why
didn't I think of that? Yeah, he, I think when I, when I
came and spoke at the mastermind at the back end of last year,
I'm as much as trying to impart some wisdom on a room, I'm there
equally as much to learn when I go see sorts of things.
So I'm always trying to be there before and after.
And there are a couple of things he'd said that day, which I
immediately actioned when I was home today because I see it too
many times in the state agency where people will go and spend
the time, money, effort, energy to attend masterminds, whether
it's small and intimate like that or a massive conference.
But nothing changes. It's I just take that action as
quickly. And that's what Sunday calls.
Is it shelf development or self development?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Yeah, spot on.
So in terms of the different hats that you wear, you've got
Moss on one side fine and country on the other.
So apart from obviously difference in value of home,
what's what's like the the biggest difference you'd say
between dealing with let's say the average house or or person
versus the higher end of market? Well, for one, I'm Fran at Moss
Properties and then I'm Francis, so I have to adapt to my
audience and the demographics of my client.
Yes, of course you've got the value.
Average house price in Doncaster is 160,000.
The fine and country license that we've got is York, Melton,
Scarborough, Pickering, majority of the YO Post codes.
So look, it could be a 700 grand property, it could be a two
£3,000,000 property, but the there is no difference that what
I'd say is the volume. So you do more at the lower
level as opposed to the higher level.
But it so I got the opportunity for finding country seven years
ago and when I got my first valuation for finding country, I
was losing my mind. I was like, Oh my gosh, I, I
don't, I don't know the area, I don't know what the comps are
going to look like. I've, I don't know how to
evaluate acres. Like we don't have those type of
properties in Doncaster. Rarely do they come up.
So Sanjay was just like, Fran, you're just going to have a
conversation and understand why they're wanting to sell and have
a look around. You don't have to deliver a
valuation and a price there and then.
Still didn't calm my nerves, but there is no difference in
process. It's still the same process.
Yeah, your marketing strategy is different, yet you're going to
do more marketing because it's a high valued property, but you
deal with a different level of clients.
So, you know, for a little old Fran who started at most
property is 20 years old. And the clients that I now have,
that's the difference for me in sort of their backgrounds, their
lifestyle and what they do. But there is no difference in
how we run final country and how we deliver the valuations, how
we market properties. Yeah, things might have a drone
or we might have additional advertising in The Times, things
like that, but it's still still the same.
You know, it's either price presentation or marketing as to
why property doesn't sell and that's whether it's a
underground or 2 million. So there isn't a difference to
answer your question really Simon other than the area, the
clients that you're dealing with, but the process is still
relatively the same and. What about the, the, I don't
know if you'll be able to answer this or not, but the, the people
who own those homes. So I'm being very stereotypical
now, but if they're owning a home of a certain value, they
probably hold a very senior job or have held senior jobs or
they're entrepreneurial, they're business owners.
Is there anything you've picked up from those types of
homeowners over the past few years where you're like they do
they do something different there like in their
communication or Yeah. I think when I first started, I
was, I'm just nosedy. I'm like, I'm thinking like,
well, how have you made your money?
Like, how have you got to like, what is your story?
I'm curious to know. And I haven't had one client who
has said, oh, it's, you know, it's inherited, it's
generational. Every client I've had has built
it themselves. And that's where I'm like, wow,
OK, how, what did you do? What was the niche?
You know, how did you build a business?
How did you build a team? And you've got people at
different ends. I had a client who built a huge,
very international successful company, sold it and just didn't
take anything else on. It's like, that's all I wanted
to do. Whereas people, other people
will be like, I'm going to work doing this job into the ground
because that's my passion. That's what I want to do and get
up and, and do every single day. So it's it, they're very similar
people to me in terms of what I aspire to do and to build.
And, you know, they've not come from a background of wealth or
money. And I think that's what makes it
so relatable, probably for them with me and me with them.
OK, you see, there's something you'd you'd said there.
And my, my mind wandered a little bit.
I I might get this slightly wrong, but I think that Reid
Hoffman, who was the founder of LinkedIn, and Elon Musk were
both part of something called the PayPal Mafia.
I think they founded PayPal, I think, and I might get that
completely wrong, but just go with the story.
And there's a few of them. The PayPal mafia who got
stupidly rich don't ever have to work again.
They've created generational wealth.
Happy days. But it's just ingrained in them.
They're like, Nah, go again. Yeah, I believe the founder of
Myspace. OK.
Gosh, throwing it back. He's, he sold Myspace for a lot
of money and then he just vanished.
Has anyone ever heard from a guy from Myspace?
He's a passionate photographer now.
Yeah. Did his thing and his money and
went, yeah, I'm going to go enjoy.
Money, it shows, doesn't It shows.
Some people are born for it and other people are like, OK, this
is done really well, but it's not for me.
I'm out and I want the most simple way of life.
I can't remember who it was, but I feel like there was a that
podcast conversation might be in Stephen Barton.
That was a diary of CEO where someone who's built their
business up from scratch, they then sold for stupid amounts of
money and they're sat on their yacht and they're living the
best life like a week later. And then the friend turns to and
goes, God, that yacht's quite a bit bigger than yours.
I wonder how much that one costs.
And he's going, oh shit, now I need to go again and build an
even bigger business. So it's.
Called a bigger yacht. Yeah, a hedonic treadmill.
Like we're on this constant treadmill of wanting to keep
improving, improving, improving. I think it's like when Olympians
train for, let's say four years and they get that gold medal and
they're like really excited. And then they're like, oh,
that's it. Now it's more than four years
training for it rather than the actual whim which was.
Yeah, exactly. And I think it differs from sort
of industry to industry. I mean, our industry is evolved,
has evolved loads, you know, 5-10 years in terms of the tech
that's being used. Obviously there's so many more
agents out there now. There's a lot more personal
agents as well. But the basics don't change in
terms of you're helping people and it's how you help people
that's going to make a difference.
I'm completely with you on that. I was on a panel last week and
asked about kind of estate agency in 21st century and I was
like whether it's 19962026 or 2056 tech, AI, it's all going to
change over that period of time, but still going to be all about
relationships. And just on the tech and AI
though, is there any like better tech or AI you're using
yourselves within the business at the moment, which is really,
really good. What you recommend, whether
that's a time saving productive thing or something that's and
money? So I don't know if you've heard
of plaud. So plaud is, yeah, you've got
yeah. This this conversation is being
recorded on Plaud right now. Perfect.
Yeah, OK, that goes out to every appointment with me.
And I'll say, right, there's two things that we're going to
finish on today. You'll have the full meeting
notes from what we've discussed and you'll have the terms ready
for you to sign, but also from from a training perspective as
well. So for keeping teams accountable
in the meetings that I'm having conversations, that's been a
massive, massive game changer Because who wants to write
minutes from a meeting and who wants to scroll back through the
notes that they've made on the iPad about, you know, what
features the property's got and then have to go back and double
check everything. That's been real time saver for
us here because you can use it in anything.
You can use it on calls, you can use it face to face, you can use
it with clients. You can use it with your team.
So I when I'd said earlier about the couple of things from
Sanjay's mastermind it back in the last year, I think I'd seen
both Plaud and Gamma in action a couple of times.
Then I sat down after I'd done my talk and then I think Sanjay,
like, nudges me a couple of minutes later and I'm like, what
on earth is that? And it's like, well, that's the
notes from your presentation. I'm like.
How? Have you done that?
And then, yeah, recording on plaud, whacking into Gamma,
hitting enter, and then two minutes later bobbed your uncle.
There you go. And I've been saying to so many
state agents over the past several months now, there's so
many different ways to use it. I can't remember, I think was it
£150 for the device and then £100 for unlimited minutes?
It's such a. So it's been really helpful for
us obviously changing our moving process for rentals.
That's completely been overhauled, you know, from the
1st of May with the Renter's Rights Act.
So we've just, you sort of discussed it and it's come up
with an instruction manual of how we're changing and what's
going to what the new process will be instead of sat there for
hours typing and typing and typing.
Yeah, it's. So I will give a recommendation
now to anyone listening and I don't know if it's something
you're familiar with or or you use, but you said about typing
there whisper flow. Is that speech to text?
Yeah, I've, I I don't ever type anything.
I'm at my computer when I'm not on the road.
I'm at my computer all day. I literally don't.
I don't use my keyboard. I just talk out loud and it puts
it into AI emails, Google Docs, WhatsApp.
Yeah, OK. I'm a big speech to text person
anyway because the amount of people I'm in contact with, it's
the thumbs, the thumbs, so. And The thing is it feels
easier, right to obviously talk out loud and you can send a
voice note, but it feels good for the person sending the voice
note, not so good for the person receiving it because you then
you have to freaking listen to it.
So it just helps everything and. It depends where you are as
well. Like sometimes the amount of
voice notes I receive as well. It's a bit.
It's like having a phone call, you know you've got kids and the
dog in the background. It's a bit chaotic.
Whereas if it was just the speech to text, it's just
concisely less and easier, isn't it?
Yeah. Absolutely right.
I have a closing tradition on the podcast frame, which I've
completely ripped off from Stephen Bartlett's diverse CEO.
So he gets the last guest to ask the next guest a question, not
knowing who they are. And I've bought these
conversation cards, so you're going to get a random question.
OK. Answer It's been an amazing
conversation, so let's not ruin it, OK?
Yes. No, definitely.
This was so a question was answered by Alex Hormozi, who
I'm a huge fan of and my God, OK, this is good luck answering
this question. Just if you struggle to answer
it, just go wherever your mind maybe first hates you.
Because I'm I I get the benefit of reading this first.
I'm like, I don't know what I would say.
So the question I want you to answer, Fran, is what is the
meaning of life? Oh.
My word. Yeah, I told you.
That's a bit deep, isn't it? What is the meaning of life?
I would say the first thing that comes to mind is happiness.
And happiness looks different to everybody differently.
And trying to find what your happiness is, is what life is
because you have to go through the UPS and the downs of knowing
which is your path, which isn't. You might have a bit of
heartbreak, there's going to be some mistakes, but ultimately
you're on the path of happiness because that to me is the
meaning, the meaning of life, that you just want to be happy.
But happiness does look different to different people.
I love that. I think we we touched on it a
few minutes ago in terms of the guy who sold Myspace and went
off to be a photographer. And then there's other people
who were like, no, I still want, I want to build another business
and go again. Yeah.
And I think as well, you know, again speaking about my
experience when I was 20 years old, I didn't know who I was.
I didn't know what my purpose was.
I didn't know where I was going. And I found my happiness by
going on the roller coaster for 14 years, business and
personally. And I think the older you get,
the more you understand and what's worth losing sleep over
and what's not worth losing sleep over and what fulfils you
personally. So I think anyone who's, you
know, early 20s listening to this, that I've been there, I
know exactly how you're feeling. Just keep going and keep doing
what you feel is your happiness. Of that right for everyone
listening at home, please do like review, subscribe, share,
follow do go check out Fran and connect with most properties.
See the fantastic work they do as well.
And that just leads me to say Fran, thank you very much for
being an amazing guest. I really appreciate it.
No problem, thank you so much for having me.