Hi and welcome to K Let's Talk, the podcast where we break down
storytelling across books, television and film with a
special love for book to screen adaptation.
Here we talk about craft, character arcs, structure,
dialogue, visual language, and the creative choices that shape
how a story lands. If you like thoughtful,
conversational, deep dives into the stories you can't stop
thinking about, you're in the right place.
Let's talk. This episode will include
spoilers for Season 2 of Heated Rivalry and The Long Game.
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the podcast.
Today we are going to be recording a part three of my Q&A
series with two questions that came up multiple times in my DMS
that I felt needed more time to elaborate upon.
And I also wanted to bring in my friend Low to help me answer
them. So this is Low.
As I've mentioned before, we are writing a novel series together
and she is my creative partner for many projects.
We met in college when she started managing our hockey team
and joined with next to no knowledge of the sport.
She majored in English and Anthropology and wrote her
thesis on hockey culture after three years as a part of our
team. And I'm excited to have Lowe's
perspective because she is someone who came into hockey as
an adult with an outside perspective where most hockey
players are born into the sport and the culture that comes with
it. Her time on our team allowed her
to be immersed in hockey the culture first hand.
She was in the locker room with us at team meals and even moved
in with us every year during our six week winter break.
But she also can do a little translating for us as someone
who has a unique relationship with the sport, having not
played but then on a team. So this is low.
Thanks, Kay. Just to give everyone an idea of
what I was working with when I joined the team, it was game
day. Our coach was showing me how to
code game tape on the laptop and I had to ask her what a penalty
kill was. So somehow it did not come up in
the interview. Thank God because I had the time
of my life. Filling your water bottles and
sometimes recording your games. I would say it was a 5050 shot
that it got recorded. So there's hope for anyone
listening who wants to learn about hockey.
Yes. So these questions were ones
that low and I actually discussed in pretty great length
outside of me being asked them for the Q&A.
So I wanted to make sure that when I was covering them, I
included her because we touched on so many really good points
when we were discussing it outside of recording a podcast.
So the first one, the question is, in general, why do you think
the TV show changed it so that Shane and Ilya did not hook up
again for years between the All Star game and before the
Olympics, Since in the books they are hooking up pretty much
nonstop once they start. So we have differing ideas about
why this show change was made. I think I'm taking a more
diplomatic view and my argument is more because of budget
constraints or logistics of shooting.
But I also have some insight into maybe why Jacob would have
wanted to age the characters up for the kind of greater
conversation about their relationship, and I don't know
if I've convinced low of that argument.
Here's the deal, you make great points.
I still reject the principle because I just like the idea
better that they're hooking up nonstop and it makes a lot more
sense why they're willing to risk things for each other and
have such an attachment when the frequency of their interactions
is more prevalent. I think you make a lot of sense
and I can totally see the benefits.
However, when I am watching it and they are so into each other
and then three seasons go by before their next interaction
for no good reason, give me a goddamn break.
It's now occurring to me also that you are much more proper
than me, and I'm going to probably let some swear.
Words. You can do that.
Well, I just have to label the Yeah episode as explicit.
E rating OK. Swear away.
Sorry in advance. Swear away.
OK, my argument for why they would have done it this way is
they are so young when we meet them.
And by aging them up and having them be older when they choose
to have sex for the first time, it puts them on a more equal
footing where we can see Shane actively choosing to say no to
Ilya for those two years. And then they both consciously
make the decision to come together in that way at that
time. And you and I both touched on
how the dysfunction hits them differently when they're older.
Whereas in the book, it very much feels like Shane goes along
with the status quo, which is that Ilya very much initiates
all of their hookups first and he's the one driving the the
train and like pushing forward and constantly reaching out to
arrange the hookups. Whereas Shane is still in his
internal world trying to resist it very heavily, but he can't
resist it because he doesn't have that, I think, confidence
yet, or maturity yet, or greater understanding of what he
actually wants. He's just basing his caving in
off of what feels good in the moment, and then he feels guilty
about it afterwards. So as the show depicts it, we
actually get to see Shane have a backbone and resist him, and
he's deciding that even though he is capable of resisting him,
he doesn't want to anymore. And I will say that is your
strongest point. And I totally see the value in
that, especially when we have talked about normal people and
comparing them. And in normal people, the 2
characters are together from high school on in some form and
are totally emotionally dependent on each other.
And so I think it's really important that these two
characters are really fully actualized people that have
their own lives and develop their identities as team mates
and players in the league without each other, despite the
like, rivalry that's going on. So I do understand that the
value in that. However, I think that Shane
could have done that in one season of resisting and proving
it to himself. And I also think that Hudson has
said that Shane has had sexual experiences before Ilya, but
it's the first time that he wants to be there.
And so I just don't think that he is going to experience that
and then say no to it. I think that he is desperate to
have experiences that make him feel like he can relate to other
people in in the room, on the team.
And I don't think that he would resist it for three years.
And I, I wouldn't want him to. I want him.
I want them to enjoy each other. I do feel like having him resist
him though, is in a way serving 2 functions because I think it
shows that Shane has the discipline that the show is
really trying to hammer home. So it's another way to make that
abundantly clear that when Shane wants to be disciplined, he is
very good at it. Because I think in the book,
it's a little more implied, not shown in any other way.
It's more of like a statement, and then the show has to find a
way to showcase that. So you could argue that this
would be a way of showcasing that.
I also think that for Shane's character, so much of his
actions are rooted in his feelings of shame about the
whole thing, and that's something that takes him almost
all the way up until the finale to really kind of fully grapple
with. And something I mentioned to you
was that he gives in not because of a conclusion he comes to.
It's more of a acceptance of the fact that having Ilya in any
capacity for a couple of hours multiple times a year is still
worth the shame and pain that comes after it.
And to me, that's really telling that he put himself in a
position where he would experience life knowing that
that was an option and then removing it as an option for
himself. And then realizing that it's not
better without the hookups with Ilya, even though he knows that
hooking up with Ilya is going to make him feel so shameful
afterwards. So to me it's like a really
hammering home that his life is quite sad internally, like he's,
I don't know, just accepting of the fact that like I'm going to
feel like shit with or without him probably, you know, there to
hook up with. And I don't think that Shane
thinks that his life is sad, but I think that he probably feels
lonely when he's at Hayden's house with his family army of
Rugrats and is just an add on. So I think he probably decides
that he'd rather not be lonely. And I think that that's a great
point. However, I just, I'm just, I'm
watching it and I want them to be hooking up.
So I don't know. I like their two teen boys like
that. Just don't see.
Yeah. I mean, it's literally like Ilya
offering to be like delivered to his door and he's going to say
no for three years. I would.
I don't know. I'm.
I'm following my heart there. Do you think that we had talked
about how in the earlier episodes the order of events has
moved around so much that it's hard for you to even compare the
two mediums? Because the timing of when they
hook up in the book and then all of the subsequent hookups that
they do have in the book that we are missing from the show are
rearranged so heavily that you wouldn't be able to like one for
one represent it accurately anyway. 100% I think they're
entire 2 entirely different pieces of art.
Normally with an adaptation, you you do want it to follow so
closely and represent it. And normally when it diverges,
it's just missing something. And here they make decisions for
the sake of telling the story and it doesn't feel like
anything's missing I guess is the difference.
Like it's not like to your point, there's so many changes
that you can't compare them in their apples and oranges,
whereas normally you can compare and you can just see where
something could be and it's not. Yeah.
Do you also feel like I found that having the first time that
they have sex with one another be after that long of a wait and
the anticipation of it and the fact that prior to when they
originally planned to have sex for the first time, it was like
a near miss situation with the snowstorm.
And then I want to have more context as to why they didn't
reschedule after that, because that's the piece that I wish
there was more of an explanation on.
It just kind of seems like the one time they had planned to do
that, it didn't work out. And then did both of them get
cold feet and not reengage? But then you make the argument
of all the text messages in the montage that Ilyas sending where
he's trying to reengage and Shane, I think in my head gets
spooked. It's like the snowstorm gave him
that like slap back into reality that he had been denying
himself. And he's so literal that he
probably felt like maybe it's a good thing that happened because
we really shouldn't be doing this.
Because the whole time in the book, he's thinking to himself,
we really shouldn't be doing this.
And he only does it because the opportunity presents itself.
So then when the opportunity is removed, he can actually make
the decision. We're not doing this.
Yeah, I think he makes the decision that he's going to hook
up with Ilya in three weeks when he's under Ilya.
And so when that decision is negated and he has to make it
when he is Shane Hollander and Yuna's texting him and he's, you
know, being Shane Hollander, then it's a lot harder for him
to make that decision. Yeah.
But the idea that 2 teen boys go from I'm going to see you in
three weeks and to have sex with you 2 three seasons is
outrageous to me. However, I will cross, you know,
party lines to say that the device of Ilya texting him for
that long when he has such a reputation as a womanizer and an
instigator, I think that that persistence proves something to
Shane that he is not the toy of the day or something and that,
like it demonstrates. He has genuine interest in him.
Yeah, because Ilya is certainly hard to read for Shane and
probably for people in general, like because he doesn't get
serious. But I think that that
persistence is a great way to demonstrate it.
Do you think that because there's that long gap, and also
to your point, Ilya persisting for that long, when I read the
actual scene in the book where they have sex for the first
time, the show, because they've done this, makes that scene so
much more emotional. And then the music adds on top
of that. And then the added scene in the
stairway adds on top of that. And to me, that's another reason
why they would have changed it so that the structure of that
scene and the significance of it in the over arching story, the
timeline of their story together, it feels like a very
big pillar that in the book isn't as big of a pillar because
it doesn't have that emotional weight.
And if I'm Jacob and I'm trying to create story beats in the
whole of the story, episode 2 has to function in some way as
the bedrock of their foundation. Because episodes one and two are
very much setting the stage for 456.
I don't think you can create that without having the first
time they sleep together be a more emotional moment than it
was written in the book. Quality over quantity is what
we're shooting for in the TV show for sure.
And I think if they had 810, dare I hope, 12 episodes, then
they probably would have been hooking up that whole time
because they would have had the time and space to show that.
And I think that the value, and that comes up again later, we'll
talk about in in in another montage.
But I, I guess I attribute a lot of it to how many episodes they
had and how much time and money they had.
And so for me, I think if they had the choice, then they
probably would be hooking up the whole time.
And so they probably should be hooking up the whole time.
And I'm going to die on that hill.
And you're allowed to die on that hill.
OK, The next question is between the end of Episode 2 in Vegas
and the tuna melt scene, it really feels like there's a huge
page turned for Ilya. He goes from being extremely
guarded and unable to connect with Shane in Vegas to actively
trying to deepen his connection with Shane at his home.
I know there's a montage at the beginning of episode 4 that is
meant to bridge this gap for us as viewers.
Why did Jacob not take the opportunity to include a scene
to help us see how and why? Ilias approach to his
relationship to Shane changed so dramatically between these two
scenes and I am still not sure what happened for him to decide
to plan this elaborate day to grow closer to him.
Would love to hear you talk more about this.
I have talked about the tuna melt scene from multiple angles
in my deep dive of the episode and the scenes and then also in
previous Q&A parts. So a lot of this I've touched on
indirectly, but I wanted LO to have a say in this too because I
think she brings some interesting points to the table
that I had not thought about. Mainly that we both are really
adamant that if you haven't read the scene from Vegas in Ilya's
point of view that's on Rachel Reed's website, it's really hard
for you to get any sort of sense of Ilya's motivation going into
tune him out. Clearly it's almost impossible
because the way he's written in the book version and shown in
the show withholds so much of his emotions.
And that's on purpose because he is doing that actively in
passage from Rachel Reid's website as well.
So without that added context, it would be near impossible to
get any sort of insight into how Ilya actually is feeling in the
Vegas scene, because it feels like he's being extremely
guarded and unable to connect with Shane.
But that's by design. And that that changes a lot when
you know that he's fighting for his life to be that way.
Absolutely. And just just because we
mentioned it a little bit in passing here, there is a deleted
scene on Rachel Reed's website of Las Vegas.
I call it the we didn't Even kiss scene because there's a
couple of Vegas scenes. And the TLDR of that is that the
entire time that they're at the award show and presenting the
award, Ilia is just desperately trying to hold himself together
because he just wants to like wrap Shane up in his arms and
emotionally fall apart with him. And so like when they are
supposed to be on presenting the awards and Shane says, where
were you? Who and who were you busy with?
Actually, Ilya was in according like if you are combining the
book and the show, Ilya was in the very bathroom that they go
to later having a panic attack because he had seen Shane and he
Shane looks so good and he wants Shane so much.
Later when he doesn't get up to say goodbye to Shane in the
hotel room, it's because he knows if he gets up he's going
to fall apart saying goodbye to Shane and he doesn't want to do
that. And we didn't even kiss.
In Ilias perspective they don't kiss because he knows that if he
starts kissing him, all he's going to want to do is kiss him
and never stop and fall apart in his arms.
So there's a theme here that Ilia is so emotionally raw and
attached to Shane that he's with every fiber of his being, just
trying to hold it in during that whole interaction.
And so he comes off incredibly cold.
And the complete opposite is that he's probably more attached
to Shane. Than Shane is to him.
Exactly. Yep 100%.
So when we leave the Vegas scene and it ends very much catering
to Shane's emotions, I would say because everyone talks about the
we didn't even kiss portion and not a lot of people like hanker
in on Ilya sitting in that bed with the cigarette in his mouth
completely dissociating and how he's frozen there.
I think people remember that we didn't even kiss part of it
because that's what it ends on and fail to register that Ilya
is just as upset as Shane in that moment.
Yes, I also want to back up and say or no, and This is why I
call it the we didn't even kiss because the Vegas rooftop is an
entirely different scene from years before, so or a year
before or something. It's from before.
My point is strike it from the record and that's why we called
we didn't even kiss scene. But if we're going back there
and we're talking about who's more attached emotionally, even
then Ilya is up on that roof and he says he kind of like caves
and tells Shane why he's upset. He's going home in three days.
But Shane doesn't catch that he's caving and telling him why
he's upset. He thinks he's just randomly
starting conversation. And so he says that's nice and
tanks that opportunity for connection.
But even then, Ilya is upset about something and willing to
confide in Shane and. Yeah, so he's not always as
closed off as people think he is, correct?
Shane just also can't pick up on his bids for connection.
Right. And then bringing us back to the
original question about tune melt.
So if you go back to Vegas, we didn't even kiss.
And then it's not really a jump. It's that he wants to connect
with Shane. He wants to fall apart with
Shane in Vegas. He's holding himself together
with every fiber of his being to not do that to Shane.
And then the montage happens of them hooking up consistently for
a while. And I think during that time, he
lulls himself into thinking that he can interact with Shane
intimately without it being a threat.
Because the whole reason he won't fall apart with Shane is
that that's like emotional danger to be vulnerable to
someone. And so I think that during that
montage, it is him lulling himself into being like, it's
this is OK, like we can do this. And then because he's lulled
into that sense of security, he's like, we can do this.
And maybe I can even want a little more and I can do a
little more. And maybe he won't notice that
this relationship is deepening if I don't call it out directly.
And so I think the first part of the question about what changes,
I think Ilya's already Ilya wants the tuna melts in Vegas,
and that is why he is trying to just hold himself together.
He's not even thinking about how he's coming across to Shane.
And so nothing changes is the short version of that answer.
It's just that with time and frequent interactions, he lulls
himself into thinking it's OK to want more and to maybe even act
on wanting more. And then Shane rips his heart
out and takes it with him. When?
He leaves the tuna, but I'm getting out of myself.
The second-half of this question is asking why didn't Jacob take
an opportunity to include a scene to help us see how and why
Ilya's approach to his relationship changed so
dramatically. I think, Lo, you kind of touched
on that. It's because it didn't change
that dramatically. I think that the way that he's
conveying in the montage that the two of them are apart but
always thinking about each other, that from the time they
meet doesn't change. There's really not been a big
change in how they feel throughout the whole series.
It's more of how much they reveal to one another is what
changes correct. The feelings are always the
same. I also think the second part of
the question is important, which is I'm still not sure what
happened for Ilya to decide to plan this elaborate day to grow
closer to shame. That's something that a lot of
people have asked me about, and the long and short of it is the
schedule. I think that the two of them are
always looking at their phones and looking at the schedule, and
without the schedule play playing out in the way that it
does. I don't think Ilya has
previously had an opportunity for him to plan a day like this,
and it's because of that that he's doing the tuna melt scene.
Yeah. And for people that don't
understand what we mean with the schedule, like games usually
happen at night in most professional sports and in this
case it happens in the afternoon.
And so that opens up their morning because they're not
going to have morning commitments before the game like
they normally. Would and the team has travelled
to Boston the day before, so Shane is already in the city the
day before. Whereas sometimes with a team
like Montreal and Boston, where they're so close together,
sometimes the team will fly to the game the day of just because
schedule permits or logistically they had a game the night
before, whatever is the case. So Ilya plans this because he's
able to look at that schedule and say this would be the only
time this season, theoretically, where he could stay the night
with me. It's a unique opportunity, so he
strikes. And he takes advantage of it.
And I think that Rachel's summary of what Ilya is thinking
and feeling again is, but it's not surprising because I think
Ilya has always been a very calculated person.
And we just don't see it because the book is largely in Shane's
POV, even though it's in third person.
So there are so many scenes where she could go back in and
paint a picture of what Ilya was doing prior to Shane arriving to
a room or any of those sort of interactions that they have
where he could have been planning things in the same way
that he does in tune him out. But this is like the one scene
that she's given, kind of peeled the curtain back and confirmed
things. Yeah.
And I would say. Calling this an elaborate day
that he planned. The boy, when he was 18, brought
Shane to Toronto for a commercial.
So this is nothing for Ilya. He literally.
It's a great example of what I'm.
Saying yeah, and he. Is a lot older now, so this
isn't very elaborate for him, but it is a unique opportunity
for him to do something he's always wanted to do.
And the montage that we see of time allows him to develop the
confidence that there's just a little bit of a change could
work. And again, I think this is a
montage of interaction that we can attribute to time and budget
to he does a great. Job with the montage in the show
because of necessity of that being the narrative choice of
condensing a lot of things into a montage.
But the montages do feel like everything that is shown is so
well thought out and calculated that even though we're flying
through years, you get a very clear understanding.
Like, I like that this particular the montage at the
beginning of Episode 4, we can see them both losing interest in
the things that used to be of interest to them.
Particularly with Ilya, we see him partying with Svetlana a lot
and hooking up with people over the course of the montage.
And slowly he's more and more wrapped up in his phone and less
interested in the people around him.
So that, we know, is a very big change for the character that's
conveyed without words in a very concise way.
And then Shane, they use his photo shoots as he's distracted
on set and he doesn't look like he wants to be there.
And they're also a great narrative device for how his
persona in public opinion is so different from who he is as a
person. Because we now know that he
likes ginger ale, but he's doing commercials for orange soda.
And those details are again, really effective of condensing
really big topics into visuals and not having to explain them
so heavy handedly. And then?
If we are thinking about Ilya in Vegas wanting to connect with
Shane desperately holding himself back and then Shane
crushes him into a melts when he does let himself want to
connect. And then people think that Shane
or Ilya is really cold at All Star when Shane is trying to
reconnect them at post Rose Landry and he's saying this
isn't a big deal to me we fuck it's fine and simple.
It's. Simple.
And I think that that is a direct tie to like, he's
basically just back at Vegas. We didn't even kiss.
And he let himself hope for more.
And Shane crushed him. And so he is essentially saying
like, he's a doesn't. He's not convinced that Shane's
not going to freak out if he admits it's more.
And so he's like, you're never going to get me to admit it's
more again, because last time he freaked out and he doesn't want
to lose him completely. And I think in that moment,
there's no indication that Shane's not there to end it in
the hotel room. I think that he is probably
trying to protect against that. And then and he has that thought
in the book. That that Shane's coming up to
the room to end it and it makes him nervous before he arrives.
I also think it's interesting to think about Ilya's reaction to
the tuna melt scene and how hurt he is by it.
To me reiterates just how open he is and vulnerable he is in
this because so many people are saying that his the way he
phrases things in the tuna melt scene and the way he roundabout
talks about girls is still emotionally distant.
But to me, the way that you know that for him, he's being
extremely vulnerable is because he's not going to be that level
of hurt by Shane leaving, if not for laying himself bare.
And for everybody, laying yourself bare looks so different
that it's hard for people to understand that what Ilya is
doing equates to that until you see how hurt he is by Shane
leaving. Yeah.
And also. How how many acts of self
soothing he is engaging in the entire time?
Like when he's talking to Shane he is having to soothe himself.
Like his finger never stops moving around his ear the entire
scene he's side eyeing him, the whole.
Time trying to get it read on him and the couch and.
So to like kind of tie up my point about the All Star hotel
room where Shane is trying to talk to him and he is saying
it's simple. I think you can draw a Direct
Line through Vegas. We can even kiss the whole time.
He just wants to connect with Shane and be with Shane in
whatever way he thinks is allowed and possible.
And at this time, what he thinks is possible is keeping it
simple. And so he's going to never give
up the party line until. Well, anyways, that's a whole
other conversation about the rest of that that scene in.
Episode 5 is a doozy, yeah, but. I do think that he tried once in
tuna melt to go for a little more and the worst case scenario
happened and he doesn't want to happen again and so that's why
he is so resistant to admitting anything to Shane about
emotional significance. And he is scared, which makes
him terrible too. Yes, which is such.
Important. I think knowing that line is
coming in the next episode is so genius because it allows you to
recontextualize a lot of Ilya's behavior and label it as fear.
Whereas initially you don't have that ability to label anything
he does as a response to him being so scared when you know in
the book and in the passage from her website that he's terrified.
Terrified and. I think the most obvious moment
of that in the All Star hotel room when he's sitting next to
Shane and Shane really corners him into if we could be
together. And he says we can't be.
And he said that's not what I asked.
And he's he's fully cornered. And so he whips his head around
and says, what does it matter? And Shane flinches.
And that is when he's most scared and when he's most
terrible. So did we answer everything in
that question? I think so.
Why did Jacob? OK.
And the other thing I'll say is why did Jacob not take the
opportunity, time and money? I think that think of everything
we could have had is sort of how I think about the montages,
because I would like to have seen a scene where they're just
being casual, like they're just in the middle of that montage.
It would be a show only. Choice though, because there
isn't one in between tuna melt and Vegas in the book where he
behaves that way. It it really is only the tuna
melt scene where he shifts his behavior.
So that would have been Jacob again, providing more exposition
than the than the book provides if he were to include a scene to
bridge that gap. So I would be I would have been
interested to see what he would have written for that to
accomplish that. But I don't know if if Shane and
Ilya had a scene where Ilya was behaving adjacent to how he is
in tuna melt and like dipped his toe in that behavior, I think
Shane would have reacted poorly then too, which would have then
prevented tuna melt from happening.
I feel like it's kind of like you have to go all in with it
like Ilya did because he again, in Vegas, he's too terrified to
do it. In tuna melt.
He does it and then gets recoiled back into himself and
that incites how he responds in episode 5.
If you insert another scene in between, I don't think tuna melt
happens and if tuna melt doesn't happen, then Rose Landry doesn't
have, you know, like it's such a domino effect that I can
understand why Jacob wouldn't want to touch that with a 10
foot pole because how he would have to then rework everything
else would potentially be really complicated.
Well, there you go with your logic and.
Reasoning K always good for it. Why?
Thank you. OK, The next question is, it was
unclear to me if Shane's place in Montreal was actually the
investment real estate that it was in the book or not.
I feel like that storyline is pretty significant.
So I concur. Jacob and Brendan were just on
another podcast talking about this exact thing and why it got
cut from the show and how they rewrote it in order to kind of
still include that storyline, even though they didn't give
Shane his own hookup pad like he has in the book.
And to me, if we're being pragmatic, it made sense that
they put that one on the cutting room floor.
But you would resonate with the pragmatism.
I would, yes. But yeah, so to make it clear,
Shanes apartment in the show is meant to be like a hybrid of the
book version where he says to Ilya, when they walk inside of
it that he owns the unit next door.
And eventually he wants to make it into two, like take the two
of them and make it into one place.
Whereas in the book, he has an entire building that he bought
and he has an apartment upstairs where him and Ilya go to hook
up. And then downstairs is like a
more commercial space that he rents out.
And so that change, Jacob said, was largely due to time and
adding another set piece that they didn't really need
necessarily to convey the fact that Ilya wants to be in a more
personal space of Shane's. And they get that when they go
to the cottage. So for him, he was OK with
scrapping that and then making this apartment still convey that
impersonal feeling by saying things like a designer picked
out all the pillows in his room and and not having it be
reflective of his happy place. And then also insinuating that
the place next door to where they are is empty, which is the
premise of why he buys a whole building so that nobody can hear
them. So it kind of takes the concepts
of the hookup building and reinforces them, but keeps the
set as one place instead of having them go to two, which is
very. Smart for a man with six
episodes in a limited budget. However, I think the idea that
Shane buys an entire building instead of just letting Ilya
come to his house is speaks volumes.
And in this one, he, he is in his space immediately.
And so I think yeah, but he's. Not because they put off hooking
up for two years again, yes, that is.
True. And that is also very smart of
isn't that nice how that ties together.
Yes, those decisions work, yes, But if we had more budget and
time, Yep, then I think he would have those.
Decisions would have happened and I.
Think he would have happily. Included the way it was
originally written, yes, and has said so.
Sacrifices had to be made correct.
And. So I agree that that is pretty
significant, and I also agree with their decision to cut it
because I certainly wouldn't want to sacrifice anything else.
Yes, but for a spoiler alert for the long game.
The fact that Shane is willing to buy a building speaks to
foreshadowing in the long game that he's so committed to
remaining closeted and sticking with the plan and how seriously
he takes it. He does say.
Though at the end of the book, he did rivalry that he wants to
allow Ilya into all areas of his life now that they've decided
like that this is what they're going to do.
And he does make a point to say, I want you to be at my place in
Montreal and have a toothbrush there like he does in the book.
So since we don't have that in the show, it'll be interesting
how they use or don't use that concept of wanting to keep Ilya
like so separate from his personal life, because they
really haven't addressed it at all.
Well, maybe. Ilya calls some of the pillows
like stamp on the impersonal apartment.
Yes, that feeds into. This question nicely though.
Yeah, take it away. So this question is, I'm curious
where you think they will start season 2.
Do you think they will pick up right where the book starts so
low? And I actually had this
discussion last night unprompted by the podcast questions.
And I am really not concerned. But there's so much at the end
of Heated Rivalry, the book that they have not included in the
ending of Season 1, that I really don't think you can start
any of the long game plot without.
But a lot of it is internal dialogue of Ilyas.
So that is the only reason why I think that they might tweak it
quite heavily, because how are you going to play out those
scenes and convey Ilyas feelings in a way that's readable?
And Connor's a great actor, but a lot of it is so internal and
very, very important lines that he thinks to himself that I
think Jacob's going to want to retool it so that it becomes
more obvious. And to me, a lot of how Elia's
inner thoughts in the second book are going to be played out
on screen is through his conversations with his
therapist, because she's really the only other person that he
reveals anything to because he keeps so much from Shane.
And he's doing that at the end of the heated rivalry as well.
So that's an aside. But in the book, it ends with
Shane and Ilya going back to the cottage.
Shane is freaking out at the house.
Ilya has to calm him down. So even after the dinner with
his parents, he is still freaking out about the the
weight of everything that's transpired at that dinner table.
And I think that riding off into the sunset is, yes, a beautiful
way to end Season 1. But I think Hudson had said in
an interview that it's not a decadent.
Yeah, it's not a happy ending. It's not indicative of the
reality of what they're about to face in this bubble that they're
in. They're happy, but it's not
real. So I think that it's a moment of
reprieve. Yeah, I think.
That you have to send them back into that real conversation
where they have to confront the fact that Shane's not OK Ilya
has just had the best day of his life.
And I think that's important to show, too.
Like, I think we got the gist of that in how he looks when
they're walking back to the car. But he truly in his head is
like, this is the best day of my entire life.
And so I think it would be kind of a disservice to that whole
ending if we don't get a follow up of like hammering home just
how much it meant to Ilya before you skip ahead 2 years to the
beginning of the long game. Thoughts.
I agree. And I think the conversations
for Ilia can also happen with Svetlana now because she's a
much more significant character. But I also think there's just
too much build up to skip two years.
Yeah, no chance. And in the deleted Hayden dinner
scene, when does that happen? It happens.
Let me look it up for those of you who hadn't read the.
Book there's a prologue to the epilogue that is a deleted scene
where after Hayden November so it is.
Later. November 2000. 18 It says it
takes place three weeks before the epilogue in the hated
rivalry, and the epilogue takes place 16 months after they're at
the cottage, so a year and a half after.
OK. Yeah.
So that's. Quite a jump, yeah, so even
that's too. Much of a jump, but for those of
you who haven't read the book and the epilogue, Hayden guesses
that the like secret person is Ilya jokingly, but he ends up
being right, stumbles into that. And then they have a dinner with
them. And so we thought about maybe
that they open with that, but that's too much time.
So I do I think that they I think that they end up back at
the cottage and like it's not warm anymore.
Like the fire's gone out and like he's looking at the cold
moon on the lake instead of the sun and he's like flipping out.
So you think that they drive? Home and they don't pick up
exactly like how the book does, where they get back to the house
and Shanes freaking out and has to go outside to get air and
Ilia gives him a glass of vodka and they just like, hash it out.
Yeah, I know. I think that that.
I think that they'll have to do a little bit of bridging from
the euphoria of the car too. But yeah, I think that they
could just open back up on that. And then how do you think the?
Resolution of that ends because in the book they they talk about
like getting engaged. And I think it would be kind of
impactful if they had Shane freaking out, Ilya once again
talking him down, preventing him from having a panic attack or
talking him through a panic attack if he has one because
he's very stressed out in the book version.
And then they start talking about the future.
And Ilya at that point in the book is so elated that he just
had this day with him that he is like dreamily talking about the
future. And it calms Shane into talking
about it alongside him. Like, it alleviates a lot of his
anxieties because Ilya now is so forthright with how ready and
prepared he is to face the adversity that Shane's freaking
out about. And they have this like nice
resolution by the end of it where they talk about getting
engaged on the dock. And that's like a great mirror
moment that they can pay off later on in Season 2.
So again, I'm thinking about it in terms of like constructing an
overarching narrative where in Season 1, we have so many
moments where they do a visual callback or a narrative one by
the end of the finale. And so if you remove that
conversation about proposing, then the proposal doesn't have
as big of a an impact. So I think that has to be in
there. And then maybe we just like fade
to black and then they jump. Yeah, for sure.
I do think one problem there is that there is no dock because of
budget. Yeah.
So either they're getting married on getting engaged on
that rock or in the yard. Yeah.
They also have a very important conversation about who they're
going to tell, which I think is really prevalent for what is
going to happen in the long game.
Yeah, well, I mean. There are worse things than
going back to the cottage. Seriously.
But I do wonder because in the book they, they do just kind of
jump 16 months later and in the epilogue, Hayden already knows,
even though the dinner scene isn't in the original source
material, I think they kind of have to include that because him
coming out to anyone other than Ilya is so important.
And he's already done it with Rose and now his parents.
But this is someone in hockey. I feel like you can't not show
that conversation on screen 100%.
And then therefore you have to have this dinner because you and
I, we were talking about what happens in the dinner scene.
And to me, it's it should have been in the book because it's so
important what happens in that scene.
I don't think Jacob could get away with not including it or
would want to. Yeah.
It's it's a. Great excerpt.
Yeah, that she added. Phenomenal and also.
Gives time to that relationship between Shane and Hayden that we
haven't gotten really to see yet.
And I think within that scene we realize as readers like how
similar the dynamic for Hayden and Shane is to Ilian and Shane
in the sense that Aiden comes off as never serious and not
particularly plugged in. But when he is confronting Ilya,
he it becomes clear how closely he does pay attention to Shane
and his needs and cares about him well.
And one of the things that Shane needs is someone who isn't
serious to get him out of his head.
So I think that showing that relationship that Shane spends
so much time on is so crucial. Yeah, and we know.
Jacob plans to talk about when Shane comes out to his team.
So I think if you don't beef up the relationship dynamic between
him and Hayden ahead of that moment when Hayden is the only
person in that room to come to his defense, again, it just adds
more context and weight to him coming to Shade's aid in that
scene. That maybe wouldn't feel as
significant if we don't have more time also with Hayden,
like, first hand witnessing how Shane is in a partnership
because he's never been with anybody really, except for Rose.
But I don't see Hayden with him. And, you know, like, we don't
see him around that relationship.
So it'll be interesting to watch Hayden observe Shane's behavior.
And in the long game, they spend a lot of time together, like the
three of them. So yeah, I think you kind of
really have to dedicate a good chunk of a scene to that dinner
scene for sure. And.
This is not a question, This is my own question and you kind of
already dashed my hopes last night.
But for the for the people in the back, do we think that Jacob
was going to leave it where every metro sucks when Shane
comes out? That's a good.
Question because there's a little bit of.
A like shit's Creek mentality of like, show the behavior that you
want to see in the world and obviously like that would change
a lot of plot. So it's not going to be 100%,
but just look at those smiling faces at the playoff viewing
party. I don't like they're all going
to suck. Yeah, no, I.
Think, I think it's less of they're all going to suck, it's
more of a lot of them are going to just be quiet.
Yeah, bystander. Yeah, I think it's.
More of that because the point that you're making about the
Schitt's Creek angle, that's Ilya's team.
They're doing that. And you kind of have to have
Shane's team represent the old guard that they've been building
up in the background because again, in Season 1, they do not
go into the hockey culture very deep.
This team is going to be the the way that they do it in Season 2.
And if you soften that, then everything that Shane and Ilya
have been resisting for 10 years doesn't hold any weight.
So you kind of have to keep it so that their reaction is true
to real, real hockey culture. Yeah.
And I. Understand that I think that JJ.
Also has to be having the reaction he does in the book
where it's just so poor because they've really teed that up
already in season 1 where he says yeah.
Lowe was watching. It yesterday and didn't realize
that JJ had already started saying release.
Yeah, obvious slurs. So that lines up with how he's
going to react in season 2. And a lot of it mirrors back to
what we were saying about Ilia, which is that when he's afraid
or hurt, he's terrible. JJ reacts terribly because he's
so hurt that Shane didn't share this with him.
And that is how he frames all of his like how he handles the
situation. He's really mean to Shane about
it. And then when they finally
converse, he says it's because he's so hurt that he let Shane
or he was trying to set Shane up with people and Shane let him do
that. And it made him feel like he was
aware of like the inner world that Shane was sharing with him.
And then to find out that the entire time he's known him, he's
been lying. So it makes him question, what
else have you lied to me about? Like the anger that he feels and
the betrayal is why he reacts the way he does.
And then Shane does a good job of calling out that like, that's
a terrible way to, well, God forbid you.
Think about what in his action? Well, that's just yeah.
That's just, yeah. And I think that that's a really
important conversation. And I think the inkling of most
people is like, well, don't make him that horrible.
But you can't make Shane's point obvious without him being the
stereotypical make it about you and completely denounce Shane's
feelings being a factor as to why he lied to you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, OK, I'll just have to
steal my heart. But it will be interesting
because they do gloss over the metros in the book.
Yeah, very much so. I'm really.
Excited. I'm glad he's leaning into.
It yeah, because. You know, it's kind of the whole
point. We also need to.
Include the press conference that they have where they
announce the foundation and it's the first time that they're like
publicly friendly with one another.
And Hayden's in that scene, he's important because he's like
guarding the bathroom door when the two of them are getting
ready for it. They also announced that Yuna is
in charge of that foundation. So I think that there's going to
probably be a lot of really fun opportunities for Jacob to add
scenes that we don't get in the book where Yuna and Ilya and
Shane are planning this launch. You know, I feel like there's
just got to be more context added to the show and scenes
added into the show to help soften the 16 month jump that
we're going to have. Like, if we don't have a solid
footing of where they are before the jump, it will feel very
jarring to me. Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's any other like loose
ends in Season 1 that, well, it's the last.
Well, this isn't a season one thing, but in the time between
the end of the book and the time, the epilogue, the jump,
it's Ilias last season with Boston and they know that.
So we don't have any clue as to how he announced he's leaving,
what the backlash was with Boston fans, how he told that,
Like, we don't get any insight into that.
Yeah, that is a huge thing that I really hope that they touch on
because that would not be received well.
And it would be fascinating how that all unfolds.
And we never really hear about it except for one time in the
long game when they're playing against Boston and he's getting
booed and he tells one of his teammates they wish I still
played for them, and that's about it.
So I feel like that would be kind of a missed opportunity for
the the rocky culture piece that they're trying to plug in.
Yeah. And if.
Anyone needs a real life example of Boston losing their Captain
God CC Brad Marchand. That one hurt.
But that one he didn't choose to leave.
I'm so saying. I'm not, I'm not saying we hold
him responsible. No, I'm but I'm.
Saying like, think about that. The reaction that Boston had to
someone leaving who didn't want to, and that it being so for
months, everyone was like deeply, deeply affected by it.
Now imagine that he chose to leave.
Yeah, No. We'd burn the ships, yeah.
It would be catastrophic, the draft pick.
There's so much there to unpack, and it is.
Foreshadowed by Una Total, total, total.
They drafted him. Yep, yeah.
Loyalty. All of it.
All very relevant for what they're gonna deal with in
Season 2. I think that we.
Could have a whole season 2 episode.
So I think we should control ourselves, okay.
We'll plan on doing that, guys. We'll do a Season 2 episode.
Our thoughts and predictions and what we want them to include.
That maybe isn't obvious because I haven't even uttered.
Svetlana name which? I've done a video on TikTok
about her, but I will say that video was born of a conversation
with Lo. Yeah, so that.
Was CC me Yeah, so. I want her to have a platform to
share her thoughts and opinions on that because, yeah, you have
so many great take and so many unbelievable observations about
her because you are someone who I think is looking at the hockey
culture of it all from a very different lens than me.
You pick up on things that I don't because I'm too inside of
it. And she's kind of in the same
boat where she's on the outside of it but very familiar with how
it works as the daughter of a player.
Absolutely. Yeah, we love you.
We. Love you.
So cool. OK.
We'll do the last question. This question is in episode 2
during the montage that shows the passage of time.
What do you think Shane was texting when he started to type?
I think you should dot dot dot and then deletes it to Ilya.
So for context, this is when in the montage, Shane is sitting on
the couch. It looks like he's at his
parents cottage and playoffs are happening.
The playoffs are happening. He's watching playoffs on TV.
Ilya texts playoffs are fun. How come you aren't here?
So classic jab. And then Shane replies fuck you
quote Lily and Ilya replies with a kissy face.
And then Shane says and see you next year asshole.
And Ilya says promise I still want that asshole.
And yes is proper grammar. And that's when Shane visibly
panics, types out I think that you should, and then deletes it
and puts his phone away. Yes, and it is a lot.
Of Hudson's incredible face, actually.
And like his face drops and he like it's panic.
And then he'd he'd like, tosses his phone, like he looks away,
like he can't even stay in the moment.
So I didn't catch any of that until we watched it looking for
that his face. Yeah, I don't know.
I just like he. Never looked at his face well
and also to to. Circle back to the first
question. This is happening when he's
actively trying to not engage with, you know, like this is
when they're still removing. Yeah, they're, this is another
example of when he's like resisting Ilya's advances.
So I think that's important to remember too.
They're not hooking up. So Ilya being this forward in
this whole montage is he's he's having to practice immense
self-control to not give in to it.
And then we see in the scene after the montage ends, and I
just said this to you, Ilya texts him before the game, which
feels like a break in the typical pattern they've
established. And for whatever reason, that's
the correspondence that Shane gives in with.
And they meet up after that game because I think that he almost.
Like, stops taking it seriously, just gets into the habit of
rebuffing him. And because, like, Ilya is like,
that, he's not serious. Yeah, he's whatever and so on.
Yeah, it jars him out of that. Right.
And he wants it the whole time. Yes, he does.
He. Sure, he sure.
Wants it to answer the question though I think that you should
dot dot dot. I think it would have been
something very literal because Shane at this point is still so
literal with all his responses earlier on in these first two
episodes. He always calls him asshole or
fuck you or like he's very deflective and he doesn't give
an answer that's true at all and he's trying to divert things
often. So this has stumped me because I
really don't know what in that situation you could fill it in
with specifically given that this is like a 2 second snapshot
of him sitting on a couch and I don't have any other context of
like what's going on between them at that point in time.
I I almost want to say he thinks like I think that you should get
that look like that This doesn't make sense.
Like something like get that looked at like you want this so
bad, but I'm not giving it to you, so you should go deal with
it somewhere else kind of thing. I was going to.
Say either he writes that because it's like a good intro
to a dismissive comment, and he realizes he doesn't actually
have one. Say, yeah, but then I've thought
of a couple while we've been talking.
Okay, good. And so I think one of them would
be like, I think that you should get your head out of my ass or I
think that that's where it's going.
Like, I don't think that I don't think he's gonna be like, I
think that you should leave me the fuck alone.
Like, no. So I.
Think it's either. Something like that.
Or end, in which case like because he can be funny.
Yeah, he absolutely can be funny.
And Ilya thinks he's. Hilarious.
But I think his humor is when he's being wholesomely honest.
Yeah, Ilya finds that most endearing.
So I think that's why my knee jerk reaction is that he would
say something honest. Yeah, I thought of the other.
One I was going to say is he could say like, I think that you
should focus the playoffs. Yeah, more.
More on the playoffs and less on my asshole or something like
that. I love that, but that doesn't
really. Account for why he doesn't send
it if those are like and that's why I think maybe he's panicking
to the point that he can't think of those and that's why he
doesn't send anything well and. That's a device that's used
multiple times is that he will write something and delete it
over and over. And he does it in the scene that
follows this when they're in the locker room and Ilia says how
many times can you come in one hour?
He types something out and deletes it twice before he says,
I don't know, twice maybe, And that's him again.
Like he was going to be literal, he was going to be dismissive,
he was going to redirect, and then he gives in and does what
he doesn't do in this scene, which is send the message.
That's honest. So I think like having him
delete this is really important because then we see what happens
when he follows through. As soon as he follows through he
gives in all together and says I'll text you after the game and
then we see them together. So I think he knows himself well
enough to not send message because this is what would
happen. Also maybe they think.
He's having fun, like, just bantering with Ilya, and then
Ilya brings it back to something that makes Shane feel
vulnerable. And that's like why it changes
for him. Yeah.
And wanting, being desired by Ilya is what makes him feel
vulnerable. That's a big.
Thing in the book, even though they sleep together or they they
have sex sooner the lead up to those two weeks in between he
like quite literally can't believe that Ilya Rosenov would
want to have sex with him and the thought of it is like
crippling there you go so if. It's two years.
Of him feeling that way. Yeah.
Can you imagine? There you go.
No wonder he's a ball of mush. Look at that.
We've solved. It.
If they had been hooking. Up more consistently, and it
wasn't montage. In this rebuffing, we would have
seen more. Hudson had more opportunities to
convey that he can't believe that Shane can't believe that
Ilya wants to have sex with him. It wouldn't just be this one
adept viewer asking a couple of other obsessive viewers to
interpret A2 second. But I digress from my soapbox.
I think it's amazing. That people are consuming the
show in this way, that we're answering a question about a
another text message that never gets sent.
Yeah. And can put that much weight to
it. Yeah.
Given how well written everything is and well acted,
yeah. Like it's only because he
demonstrates the panic that, yeah, that we have any insight?
Even go off of that. Yeah.
And so the thesis is give them more money and more time and
more. Epic.
Episodes it doesn't. Sound like we're getting that,
but I'm holding out hope. I also really want them to do
some sort of an episode in between now and season 2, but
I'm not holding out hope for that either.
But we know that they filmed a lot that didn't get included.
That's a whole episode, that's. AI have a list of.
Demands OK. So we'll do.
Another one for that, absolutely.
But I will say I have less hope for an in between episode after
discussing where they're going to pick back up.
Like if they pick up back at the cottage.
Doesn't make any sense for them to do any between episode.
Yeah, but, well, they could. They could do.
It depends on if they want to film something with everybody or
just Shane and Ilia, because you could fill in the gap of what
they do for the rest of the two weeks they're there now that the
parents know and just have the four of them have a scene
together. And that would have been, yeah,
something I would watch. I would watch anything.
Who am I kidding? But.
Yeah, but that is very true. Kind of like when Euphoria, like
Hunter Schaefer wrote those episodes of Euphoria.
Yep, another incredible piece of television.
Well, we're gonna end the Q. And A there cuz we're well over
an hour. Thank you as always, if you've
made it to the end for listening.
We are gonna have a few other more specific episodes coming
out deep diving into some other topics and ideas that kind of
formulated while going through a lot of these Q&A questions.
So thank you again to everyone who submitted a question and
sent me a message with your insights and opinions because so
much of what we've been able to discuss has been in at least on
my end, like spawned from someone bringing something up in
my inbox, which is really fun. Absolutely.
And that's. On discourse it is that is on.
Discourse. So we will see you in the next
one and thank you again for listening.
Bye now.